lore-and-universe

[carmine sleet]

In other news, I am finally caught up on Empty Throne

[spare kite]

Nah but see the 2's survive everything. Operation Prometheus and Torpedo? Yea the 3's only died because they're weaker than the 2's its not like the 3's were facing against enormous non stop replenishing enemy forces with major setback after setback. If the 2's were there instead of the 3's they would have all made it back home.

[empty bloom]

No, IIs have died multiple times to attrition and overwhelming odds.

It's not different because people want them to be 'special'.

[spare kite]

I should have put the /s lol

[empty bloom]

Fair

[wispy pewter]

James went out with a bang

[karmic gulch]

Sam 034

[sleek vigil]

I hope Halo Studios, at some point, retcons Reach's sky to be orange/amber coloured. It'd only make sense for a planet orbiting K-type Orange-Red dwarf's sky to be largely dominated by dominant orange and amber rather than blue.

Also call the system “Ran” instead of “Epsilon Eridani”. I don't expect people of 26th century to use scientific names for Star Systems. Sol, Ran, it just flows better.

[worthy cradle]

The Banished, maybe; but I’m pretty sure the Covenant considered that heretical

[empty bloom]

There were allowances. Disapproved but not dealbreaking.

Shrwssha'wash, the practice of macabre skull displays of particularly hated opponents (By Elites), was something the Prophets suppressed; But it was not explicitly heretical.

[worthy cradle]

I forgot about that to be fair

[empty bloom]

And Tartarus has an Elite skull on his own pauldron.

[worthy cradle]

Point taken

[empty bloom]

Eh, just reinforcing the point and expanding on it.

[worthy cradle]

That wasn’t heretical though, that was political

It wasn’t religiously prohibited so much as obscene (to a Sangheili)

[empty bloom]

None of it was. Barbarity was the norm in Covenant, and Brute, culture; The Covenant just had the audacity to hide it under a veneer of treated nanolaminates.

[worthy cradle]

Well put

I mean, the legal strictures were in place, but I think it was more of an issue of not being able to actually enforce it for the most part

[empty bloom]

I tend to assume that, if they were going to try being more true to where Brutes come from, Brutes would likely regularly collect human skulls.

Or other brute skulls. Or really, the skull of whatever annoyed them most that they've killed.

Given that the Banished apparently have a tendancy to scavenge warplate taken from the still-breathing bodies of challengers.

[worthy cradle]

The Banished have a tendency to scavenge in general

True

[empty bloom]

Almost all of brute culture makes sense when it's considered that they are the most true form of post-apocalypse survivors in Halo canon. Their entire culture is seeped in savage, single-minded assimilation and domination of any viewpoint beneath their strength.

Their clothing is made from tanned leather of slaughtered prey; Their armor is made from the remains of enemy warplate; Their weapons are stolen and reforged from enemy technology or scavenged from their own history; Their very steeds of metal are forged from the carapace of the enemy's own cavalry.

They deal in technological plunder and metal, not currency. Material, tangible assets, not fiat systems of wealth.

[hardy swan]

How did they even manage to survive this long without killing each other

The Elites didn’t even know how to maintain their ships after the HCW

[orchid kettle]

They kinda still are killing each other even under Atriox

[hardy swan]

I wonder how many of them are there after Dorsaic was destroyed

[empty bloom]

The Banished were on their own for longer than the Sangheili and the Brutes are, by nature, an industrious and mechanically curious society. Even the ones who stayed with the Covenant eagerly displayed ingenuity and embraced it.

[empty bloom]

They are a pack culture with a strong heirarchy that favors social domination, not a gang of perpetually murderous psychos with no call but that that guts their friends.

Their culture is alien to us because, well, they are aliens.

[hardy swan]

Makes no sense why Earth let some of them take refuge in Earth only for them to commit terrorism

[empty bloom]

If I let in 1000 refugees, and one of them is pretending to be a good person but actually wants to make bombs, that does not make the remaining 999 evil.

[hardy swan]

Can’t imagine the xenophobia they might face by angry humans

[orchid kettle]

I always like to think that the one saving grace of the Brutes is that they love their family-- as ironic as it is that son is expected to slay father to claim the title of Chieftain

but hey Maccabeus said his own father had a smile on his face when he killed him, so I guess its culturally its not a big deal

[hardy swan]

I actually wonder if the UNSC allows aliens to join their forces. I know there already are but not sure if they are just exceptions.

[empty bloom]

They let refugees in because they are refugees, and humans are, if nothing else, morally inclined as a species average to be more open-minded to people in need.

Alien cultures are full of alien people. Alien. People. People. We like people. Even at my most pessimistic, I recognize that the natural human response to need is to provide that need, even if leadership disagrees.

[spare kite]

I feel like this is putting it way too nicely for the brutes.

[empty bloom]

No, it isn't.

Firstly, the terrorist thing was elites, and secondly, that does not change a thing.

[orchid kettle]

If the series had the balls we'd also probably have more instances of Sapien Sunrise doing stuff besides, one thing in HtT

[hardy swan]

Only Elites tried being allies with humans though

[empty bloom]

Using "Well it's different if it's X society/species/race/creed/et cetera" is a wedge point used to justify atrocities, not defend onesself.

It is an excuse to justify annihilation.

[sour raven]

Also, the banished is very open with humans joining, well Atriox is, just dont be aligned with the unsc anymore

[orchid kettle]

There's a comic where a friendly Brute is holding a meeting with the Arbiter, and the UNSC are there as like neutral security

too bad Lydus basically disappeared from the story after that though

[hardy swan]

Reminds me of that Xenophobic Human gang in Star Trek

[empty bloom]

Lydus' tribe aligned with the Banished, apparently.

Which is how the Banished get their fleets, or at least, part of them.

[orchid kettle]

I assume its like a Castor situation where like, you didn't really have any other options as a Brute in the galaxy

[spare kite]

If we're talking about Elites than sure. But in terms of Brutes I dont think its incorrect to think that the Brutes in large part would be incompatible in human society.

[hardy swan]

They were. Humans are still in the Banished but they are also hated. So it doesn’t make sense

[empty bloom]

And that's how you justify atrocities.

[orchid kettle]

hey wait how come Castor didn't work with Dovo Nesto

[empty bloom]

By literally proving my point.

[orchid kettle]

was he too smelly

[sour raven]

But overall, genocide is no good

Every one will hate you for that

[hardy swan]

Well some cultures are not equal. That is why the Klingon Empire is not part of the Federation, and it’s okay

[orchid kettle]

[spare kite]

How? Brutes have no issue gutting each other over minor disputes. Why would it than be a fault on my end to not want that? We literally see in the changing of the honor guards one brute kill another over a helmet lol.

[hardy swan]

Can’t be friends with a species that wants to kill you

[orchid kettle]

Humans used to duel each other to the death if they felt they had been insulted

[hardy swan]

Not in the Big 25 though

[empty bloom]

It's a fault on your end because you are using your fear to drive your decision, thus dooming refugees.

[spare kite]

And theyve changed. Im all for the brutes changing, but they can change without my influence.

[empty bloom]

"What if" is not "is"

[high elbow]

Untrue: The killer wasps I keep in my basement have started affectionately ruining my foundation and eating at the floor boards

[empty bloom]

On a list of things that refugees tend to be, intent on murdering you is not one of them.

Like, there is literally a reason they are refugees.

[orchid kettle]

Also like, do you think the Brutes just have a biological urge to kill humans

[unique rune]

if you're going into the scenario with the idea that "we can't be friends because they want to kill me" you're really not like

helping

[spare kite]

Am i morally obligated to help these refugees. These refugees who in large part come from a culture that is historically dangerous to my own. You argument only works if i have an obligation to help them. Humanity just got out of a genocide, if theres any obligations its not from humanity.

[orchid kettle]

a species they never encountered until the last 40 years

[hardy swan]

Depends if they watch the news

[empty bloom]

Yes.

You are morally obligated.

[slim thorn]

If you think that the Brutes is the advanced level of the Apes / Gorilla, feel free to put them there to test it out.

[empty bloom]

I have a lot of examples locked behind rule 5, but the basic precept is this; Fear is not an acceptable motivator to purge refugees.

[spare kite]

Biological urge is hard to determine. I think there culture influences strenth over all else. This although not fundemntally wrong does mean that u get instanced like bruted killing each other over a helmet.

[hardy swan]

I mean Halo is not showing us the good side of Brutes so they are not helping. We have hero Grunts like Stolt and Elites like Arbiter and the Jackals just don’t give a damn

[spare kite]

By who?

God?

[slim thorn]

Dude

[empty bloom]

The society you exist in, the basic premise of humanity, and the social contract.

[slim thorn]

Do you have even a moral code for that?

[orchid kettle]

To be honest sometimes it feels like Atriox is only really a villain because we need something for the UNSC to fight or there's not a story

[empty bloom]

I think y'all should really take an anthropology and sociology class.

[hardy swan]

I mean accepting Refugees is fine. But I would pick something like Mars or Titan. Not Mother Earth wtf

[spare kite]

Yea humanity. Not some other species that got done participating in a literal genocide against my own kind. Said people who again have no issue gutting each other let alone humans over minor disputes.

[slim thorn]

In most cases, refugees always flocks to one place: Capital

[hardy swan]

lol

[slim thorn]

Earth is the Capital of the UNSC, and it's obvious they go there to seek refugees more than other areas

[spare kite]

My moral codes changes when we're talking about a species lile the brutes. The idea that i should welcome them with open arms i find to be asinine.

[hardy swan]

Did they terraform Luna in Halo

[sour raven]

No? I think

[empty bloom]

Alright. Say you have a culture of typically blue-skinned humans on Earth. Their culture is relatively warlike; They tend to solve issues with blood debts and duelling. You have a hundred refugees who promise to abide by your rules to the best of their ability on threat of deportation.

[hardy swan]

Nooe

[orchid kettle]

But I dunno, that backstory made him seem almost too heroic as like a guy fighting against an empire that had enslaved and killed his clan, and yet he clearly found it within himself to not blame the Sangheili as a whole considering a big part of the Banished identity is how they're not supposed to care about race

At least until Atriox disappears and the Brute homeworld got blown up by a human AI

[hardy swan]

What if the UNSC leaves him alone what will happen

[empty bloom]

I can't really use real examples due to the rules, but there are plenty of real world examples I could use right now. Several are especially connected to this.

[hardy swan]

It’s all Cortanas fault

[orchid kettle]

what if everybody joined the Banished

who is left to plunder and rob

atriox my guy you can't be a pirate at this scale

you are the government now

[hardy swan]

Oh right, letting the Banished have sole control over a weapon of mass destruction at a galactic scale is not a good idea

[spare kite]

Nah they cant come in. If they need help getting set up than we'll help financially to get them a place but no i aint letting them in. What good is a promise of you have decades of evidence saying other wise? Humans lie all the time what makes u think that an alien wont? Lol.

[orchid kettle]

To be fair, if I was an alien, I wouldn't feel comfortable with humans claiming ownership of all the Halo rings

because they're the only species that can turn those things on

They shouldn't be anywhere near them

[hardy swan]

The mantle was bestowed upon US

[dusk jetty]

Taking xenophobia a little too literally here

[orchid kettle]

The mantle isnt a real thing

[empty bloom]

Honestly, a lot of the world's problems would be solved if people were less xenophobic than this and actually made efforts to build than burn.

[empty bloom]

The mantle is a philosophical trap.

[hardy swan]

Sounds like TREASON

[orchid kettle]

Even if it was-- the Precursors suck

they let themselves get killed by a weaker species and then got so mad they decided to become the Flood and make all life in the galaxy suffer for eternity

[dusk jetty]

The flood is literally a huge temper tantrum from them having a skill issue

[orchid kettle]

They're petulant lil babies

[spare kite]

The world would be a lot better if everyone forgave but thats not the world that we live in. The brutes participated in the mass genocide of tens of billions. The idea that me denying refugees would make me the villain after eveything that they did I find amusing.

[hardy swan]

Sometimes I think if the Ancient Humans ever come back they will think we are a joke

[empty bloom]

You are not absolved of your sins by the sins of another.

[orchid kettle]

They kinda did come back

the lord of admiral is kind of a ghost and he can just astral project and watch what's happening in the galaxy

[hardy swan]

Yes one of them went into the head of some ONI scientist

[orchid kettle]

he thinks we're cool because we have a military or something

[hardy swan]

Oh you’re talking about the lord of admirals that made amends with the Didact

[spare kite]

Saying no to a murdering psycho is not a sin lol. Again i aint obligated to help them. If you want to prove to me that there is some OBJECTIVE moral compass that I must live by than do it, but until than it aint a sin or whatever to say no to a man who just murdered my entire family.

[orchid kettle]

i dunno it was real vague beyond like "ah yes even now we humans fight"

[empty bloom]

Your premise fails in the first line alone.

[hardy swan]

I think he was glad we still exist

[empty bloom]

That is the exact excuse that people have used to justify atrocities of minority groups for centuries. Millennia.

[hardy swan]

And the Forerunners were not
hah

[empty bloom]

"Well they're all (insert crime here), so we should let them die"

When you don't even know it's true, you're just stereotyping.

[spare kite]

Yea people have also used a lot of other excuses. Turns out u can use any excuse to justify something. I aint advocating for genocide.

[empty bloom]

You literally are, actually.

[orchid kettle]

what will the children think when they see a Sangheili walking down the street and ask me why they dont have four jaws

[dusk jetty]

Justifying it is advocating for it

[spare kite]

Can u guys tell me what im justifying?

[empty bloom]

Genocide.

[orchid kettle]

Xenocide

[hardy swan]

Secure borders

[spare kite]

And pray tell how

[empty bloom]

#lore-and-universe message

[orchid kettle]

here

[dusk jetty]

Don’t be coy, that’s not what we’re talking about

[empty bloom]

(It is often an excuse used for it though)

[dusk jetty]

An excuse, not a reason

[spare kite]

You might want to scroll back further. I said that im not OBLOGATED to help them. I also said that I have no issue helping them get set up.

[orchid kettle]

but trench why can't i have an ethno-state of my own? As a treat?

[empty bloom]

Mmmn, the ethnostate by violence, forced movement, then neglect approach. Cool motive, still intended genocide.

[dusk jetty]

The UNSC may say that want a secure galactic stage but then they go and nuke a whole colony

That’s contradictory in and of itself

[spare kite]

Since when did I argue that I wanted an ethnostate? Does everyone forget where i said that I had no issue with the elites?

[dusk jetty]

I like halo for cool factor but I’m not oblivious to the very real symbolism in much of the lore

[empty bloom]

#lore-and-universe message
#lore-and-universe message

We're talking about alien species in general-if you can justify it for brutes, someone can justify it for the elites, and we're back at square one.

[hardy swan]

Listen I am just saying through the lens of the Halo universe. It doesn’t have to reflect reality because genocidal Aliens don’t actually exist.
If you think accepting a group of people look up to Atriox, idk man that’s self sabotage.
We don’t have evidence of friendly Brutes, they were the first one to abandon Sanghelios and none were seen in the SoS in Halo 5.

[spare kite]

Idk why u linked these when the first one is irrelevant and the second is literally what I just said.

[empty bloom]

#lore-and-universe message for the first.

[hardy swan]

I think Venezia and outer colonies are the only examples of Coexistence

But they are all criminals

So

[orchid kettle]

Well probably the uncomfortable thing about the Unggoy of the SoS is that those were probably the grunts who were enslaved on Sangheilos or the Sangheili warships that returned

[empty bloom]

The second-the 'financially to get them a place' is advocating for a Xeno/Ethnostate.

[spare kite]

Than u dont live in a real world. I applaud u for this perfect ideal would where everyone forgives everyone but thats not reality.

[hardy swan]

I remember when the ODSTs had help from grunt farmers lol

[orchid kettle]

Not to see they're still subjugated now but that's probably where they came from

[hardy swan]

They are friendly

[dusk jetty]

We do have friendly brutes. https://www.halopedia.org/Lydus

[empty bloom]

I literally work in humanitarian aid part-time while I work on my college right now.

I know more about this from a ground perspective than you.

[dusk jetty]

Lydus was open to peace

[spare kite]

Ill add the context. When I say "im not obligated" im replying to your assertion that by some OBJECTIVE moral compass I am obligated to help. You have yet to prove an OBJECTIVE moral compass because there is none.

[hardy swan]

Lydus is a real one and the only one

[spare kite]

Than it should be clear to you what im saying than. WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN DOES NOT EXIST

[dusk jetty]

(I’d assume in a broader context plenty of brutes didn’t really want to fight and do it out of obligation)

[empty bloom]

Brutes sided with Thel during the onset of the Sangheili civil war post-HCW. Additionally, the Swords still utilize Jackal and Brute retainers, albiet in limited numbers.

[orchid kettle]

but breaking the law is cool

[dusk jetty]

Course given doisac they have a reason to fight us now

[empty bloom]

No, actual experience in the field is why I know it does, objectively, exist.

[dusk jetty]

Even if by proxy

[hardy swan]

Stupid Cortana

[spare kite]

So everyone in the world forgives everything? There has never been a case of harm being done due to someone seeking revenge?

[unique rune]

mf acting like striving to make things better is an impossible task

[empty bloom]

That's not what I said. You are obligated to help, not to trust, but to help. It's the basic concept of hospitality. You are obligated, as part of the social contract, to help make things better.

[dusk jetty]

All I’m hearing is “what’s in it for me”

[orchid kettle]

hot Jiralhanae women

[empty bloom]

Y'know, it's times like this where I'm glad I vehemently hate Ayn Rand's writing.

[hardy swan]

I do not know you

[dusk jetty]

That makes two of us

[spare kite]

Mf acting like saying no to someone who just killed your entire family makes u a villain lol.

[hardy swan]

Speaking of which, man all the halo aliens are so ugly and none of them are like Vulcans

[empty bloom]

The refugees did not kill your entire family. And "But they might!" is not a good enough excuse to justify further atrocity.

[dusk jetty]

Vulcans? 😭

[orchid kettle]

We do have a book in the franchise about a girl who survived her planet being glassed realizing that she shouldn't be judging the aliens based on their species

[dusk jetty]

THATS attractive?

[hardy swan]

T’pol that’s all I have to say

[high elbow]

I like my Jiralhanae women like I enjoy my coffee: Super far away from me because I dislike coffee

[spare kite]

And I asked before and you have yet to answer but ill ask again. Under what objective metric am I obligated to help by.

[empty bloom]

I've answered several times. Your continued insistence I have not is an act of bad faith. There are literal answers in what you are replying to.

[orchid kettle]

Why do you think you need an objective metric of morality

[dusk jetty]

What even is a metric of morality

How many compliments you get?

[hardy swan]

Kilograms

[orchid kettle]

how much you make people smile

[hardy swan]

1 kilogram of happiness and tolerance

[spare kite]

So do u live under the belief than that repeated behavior means nothing than?

[spare kite]

Link to them

[orchid kettle]

When applied to an ethnic group, no.

[dusk jetty]

What if I make them smile from my stupidity

[empty bloom]

You literally replied to what you are asking for.

[dusk jetty]

Checkmate covie lover I win

[hardy swan]

Do you own a tiny green car

[orchid kettle]

If a Brute kills a person in Hypothetical City, then the individual goes to jail

You don't round up all Brutes or deport all Brutes

[dusk jetty]

An M12 ain’t tiny

[spare kite]

U have yet to provide any objective form of morality proving that I am obligated to act in a certain way.

[dusk jetty]

How about negligence?

[empty bloom]

You know what? If you think that there is no objective morality, go out and stab someone based entirely on appearance while screaming about that. (Do not do this)

[hardy swan]

Let me tell you what happened in 1942

[dusk jetty]

Neglect is a crime

[spare kite]

Sure but if the entire species commits to genociding your own people. It would be pretty reasonable to say no to them when a few of them ask for help.

[dusk jetty]

If you stand idly by when you can reasonably save someone you are guilty of a crime

[empty bloom]

The entire species didn't commit.

The Banished are literally an example of not committing.

Atriox literally disavowed the Covenant because he didn't care about the genocide of humanity, he was just being forced into meat grinders.

[spare kite]

Did u really just go down the "atheist have no morality therefore they do X and X" route? REALLY????

[orchid kettle]

Atriox was a slave soldier who was meant to die in the first battle he was ever sent to

thats the whole thing with the covenant

[spare kite]

And go back to what I said about this very thing

[stoic hamlet]

That’s a massive reach.

[hardy swan]

Grunts love human culture they watch human movies and break the 4th wall. They will assimilate pretty well

[empty bloom]

Which was wrong? Why?

[dusk jetty]

I’d assume 4th wall breaks are non canon

[spare kite]

And what trench said about " if u dont believe in objective morality go out and stab someone" isnt? L

[dusk jetty]

An unggoy cannot hold a controller

[spare kite]

I responded to this very thing im wondering if u can go and find it

[hardy swan]

As far as I know the United Nations or EU doesn’t exist. So while you say it’s a crime based on reality it’s not something the UEG has to follow

[empty bloom]

Not my job to water carry for every diatribe.

[stoic hamlet]

Well, I think the assimilation would definitely take time, though mostly because they have needs that no one’s really prepared to deal with (breathing methane, and all).

[worthy cradle]

You know you raised ‘em right if they can take you down

[hardy swan]

Xbox

[dusk jetty]

Not because the Xbox doesn’t exist in universe, but because grunts hands can’t hold one

[spare kite]

U had no issue doing those other times. Funny enough u wont do it now lol

[empty bloom]

Shockingly, I can get tired of doing things for other people.

Especially if they're proving, consistently, to not be operating in good faith.

[stoic hamlet]

They’re often loyal, can’t really fault that.

[orchid kettle]

Hekabe loves him those babies

[high elbow]

They could use adaptive controllers rather well I think?

[empty bloom]

I do think the grunt's unfortunate social situation is heavily impacted by their necessary impedements that are beyond normal disadvantages in interspecies social interaction.

[orchid kettle]

i forget if it was ever clarified if he was related to them or if the death of children just by itself is what upset him

[dusk jetty]

Sure, probably

[orchid kettle]

either would be understandable I guess

[empty bloom]

Like, they are basically forced to have segregated housing purely due to breathing requirements.

[dusk jetty]

I’d still assume a physical Xbox doesn’t exist as of 2552

[hardy swan]

Stolt will live his life knowing a Spartan died saving his butt

[orchid kettle]

then what is my halo 3 Spartan wearing on his back?

[empty bloom]

A hologram!

[dusk jetty]

A katana

Super cool katana

[empty bloom]

... Actually, considering it's Wargames, it likely actually is a hologram.

[spare kite]

shocklingy u just conceded your morality argument yet tried to twist it to me now having no morals. But anyways ill answer since you're now suddenly so tired. I have no issues with having Brutes becomes a part of human society eventually. The reason why I mention the elites is because they have been shown to work well with humanity. Brutes have no. Hence why i mentioned that yes allthough I do not want them integrated into human society yet, i have no issue helping them get set up. If that means get their own planet than that means helping them get their own planet. Now when their culture shifts from being less warlike either with ir without our help than thats when we can have talks about "unifying" our people.

But sure after u reply ima go stab the next person that I see just to "prove your point" lol

[hardy swan]

Till this day I don’t know how to pronounce Jiralhanae

[orchid kettle]

I say the "jiral" part like "feral" but with a j obviously

[high elbow]

JIR-al-han-ay

[stoic hamlet]

It’s pronounced for the first time in game in Halo Wars, actually.

[hardy swan]

Cool

I’m going to check it out now

[stoic hamlet]

“Gee-rill-han-eh”, from memory, is the phonetic pronunciation.

But it’s been a bit.

[empty bloom]

I find it hard not say 'aye' instead of 'eh'

Despite there not being an "i" in that section of the word.

[orchid kettle]

i feel like the audibooks dont even say it like that

[empty bloom]

I've never actually listened to the audiobooks tbh

[stoic hamlet]

I’ve heard they’re not great, sadly.

[empty bloom]

I mean, even the best audiobook frankly doesn't catch my interest, but that's because I don't like listening to a book, I like reading a book.

[orchid kettle]

I mean they're fine, I just sure hope you like Scott Brick

i downloaded the audiobook for the hunt for red october and he reads that too, I can't escape the man

[worthy cradle]

I pronounce it “ay”; technically it can be pronounced both ways

[empty bloom]

Dread it. Run from it. The Brick arrives all the same.

[worthy cradle]

But this is what we get for using a language that’s actually three different older languages recycled

[unborn patrol]

cant listen to audiobooks or podcasts. like I would need to just lay down and listen to something couldnt imagine. and too adhd to listen to something like that while working for example. itll all just go by me

[velvet raven]

Is there an official deck plan for any covenant ship?

[unique rune]

Closest thing is probably going to be the cutaway illustrations in Warfleet

[high elbow]

That and the confusing hallways during the Truth and Reconciliation levels during Halo CE

[worthy cradle]

The Reach level Long Night of Solace actually gives you nearly the whole of a Covenant corvette

[unique rune]

I’m pretty sure trying to make deck plans out of any CE level would end in a heart attack because they definitely were not considering how the physical space of them actually works

[worthy cradle]

I’ve seen diagrams showcasing that, and comparing the length of the Warthog run in The Maw to canonical sizes for Halcyons

[unique rune]

Yeah, it’s like twice the length of the ship and also in the wrong direction
It’s hilarious

[velvet raven]

Also the "bridge" where Echo 419 is supposed to pick you up

Like what even was that

[high elbow]

Not to mention the massive gap during the pelican pick up

[worthy cradle]

Rule of thumb: pinch fusion reactor and command bridge as close to the very center of the ship as possible, then a grav lift/ventral beam underneath, and then imagination fills in the rest

The “imagination fills in the rest” part is my specialty

[high elbow]

I like my Halcyons the way I like my urban planning: Full of nonsense and totally impractical

[worthy cradle]

And with lots of straight lines and dead ends

[snow cape]

how close was Buck meeting cheif in H2/ODST

[unique rune]

Short answer: no

Long answer: You can see the In Amber Clad chasing after the Solemn Penance in the opening drop. That’s the closest anyone from Alpha-Nine gets to Chief.

[obsidian thistle]

Alpha-Five on the other hand goes past a Spartan a few times

Many believe that to be Will

So by all means its possible Will was still in the City

[empty bloom]

Well, until Guardians, at any rate.

[stoic hamlet]

Honestly it could have been anyone. A II, a III, a IV (Eugh), etc

But yeah, Will specifically works.

[obsidian thistle]

I've had a hunch for awhile that the three Spartans that saved Agryna on the road to hell were Blue Team.

Armor being artistic licence

Much like Halo 4s intro cinematic armor

[obsidian thistle]

Still tragic that it was Spartans that were dropped and not ODST

[hardy swan]

maybe Agyna would have became an ODST then

[vagrant ocean]

Not likely, Blue Team was on Onyx.

Could’ve been Omega or Silver.

Or Gold, Green, or Yellow. There’s plenty of IIs we have no idea what happened to them.

Omega seems likely given their purpose as an evac team.

[obsidian thistle]

Blue Team were at Earth for a wee while

[high elbow]

Speaking of Omega team, do we know where they are? Or does that constantly change as a rapid response team

[hardy swan]

They are probably still kicking banished butt rn

[sleek vigil]

They could do a funny thing if they called Halo 7 “Halo Infinite Warfare”

[sleek vigil]

Atleast after the Arcadia mission, they split off. The big three guys are Omega, the other three are Silver.

Omega Team - Leon-011, Robert-025, and August-099.
Current active members, survived the war. Depicted with Energy Sword, a Portable Plasma Cannon, and an ARC-920 Railgun.

[carmine sleet]

Well, we know there's two missions on Arcadia which Omega went on, the first being 2531, which we see in Halo Wars, then there's the op in 2560, where August, Leon and Robert observed a deal

[sleek vigil]

Silver Team - Kai-125, Riz-028, and Vannak-134.
Status unknown. MIA.

[high elbow]

Thanks folks! So at least we know they’re active somewhere probably

[stoic hamlet]

Well, on a technicality, Spartan teams are fluid, even of the three “mainstays” only August is stated to be the most commonly deployed on Omega.

(Which is why trying to place Spartans into specific teams is dumb and I don’t like it)

[vagrant ocean]

They were on Onyx in late 2552,

[stoic hamlet]

But they fought on earth for 2 weeks beforehand

[obsidian thistle]

Yup

[orchid kettle]

Yeah Fred gets manhandled by that Brute

[obsidian thistle]

October 20th to November 3rd

[orchid kettle]

which tanks a full MA5B mag to the face

[stoic hamlet]

Eat your vegetables kids.

[orchid kettle]

I still like to think that the Covenant were in London because one of the museums had some artifact from Africa or wherever that was secretly of Forerunner origin

[obsidian thistle]

Inb4 the Arthurian legends

[orchid kettle]

though granted I'm pretty unimaginative so I can't fathom any other motivation beyond the Covenant hating the brits in particular

[carmine sleet]

Excalibur confirmed to be in Halo, you heard it here first folks

[obsidian thistle]

I been saying that mad hatter theory for years lol

[carmine sleet]

They can't hate us more than we hate ourselves

[orchid kettle]

the lady of the lake is the librarian confirmed?

[vagrant ocean]

Yes, in October, odds are London was November or December.

[carmine sleet]

I doubt the Covies would've waited until November or December to invade the UK

Like, I imagine it was similar to how things went elsewhere, Regret's forces started the invasion, the Brutes swooped in just after he left and took over from the Elite commanders on the ground, like we see in ODST

[vagrant ocean]

Battle of London is late 2552

[carmine sleet]

October counts as late within a year

[vagrant ocean]

They were otherwise deployed. Antarctica, Yucatán, and Havana.

[obsidian thistle]

Tbf Ghosts of Onyx just lists stuff. It doesnt say it was "all" the ops.

[worthy cradle]

There’s a really sweet piece of artwork I’ve found on that theme

It won’t let me share files in this channel though

[arctic lotus]

im lookin for answers!
Spartan Horvath is separated from his fireteam on December 13th, then reports on December 26th that He’s been separated from them for only 5 days.
Thats Quite bad Math for Spartan.
Sources referenced are Ring fall Audio log 7 and Reverie 3 audio log 3.
time travel? 👀

[shy wave]

so what difficulty is the most lore accurate
probably heroic to me

[hardy swan]

Time travel

[plush walrus]

Are he and his team on the same planet?

[dusk jetty]

It’s canonically normal

Legendary if your a marine ig

[stoic hamlet]

There is no canon difficulty. None best match the universe as described in the books.

[plush walrus]

I thought I heard that Heroic was the like, "intended" difficulty, which I'd take to mean canon?

[stoic hamlet]

Intended doesn’t mean canon, just the most optimized difficulty. The one the devs wanted players to play on.

[worthy cradle]

Or, another way of putting it is “a little bit of everything”

Some aspects of each difficulty all mixed together would probably be most accurate to canon

[obsidian thistle]

The book The Rubicon Protocol retcons when a few things happen or fixes a few things. That mistake is actually placed on the 18th.

The retcons are mostly fixes however

Picking 1 thing over the other with stuff like that

[obsidian thistle]

You cant play a full on close to canon version of CE/CEA cause The Flood uses stuff from a few difficulties

Its mostly "Easy" if you wanted an average

[worthy cradle]

Except that the Fall of Reach book, which directly precedes the events of CE, has the Covenants’ small arms achieving the kind of damage felt on Legendary

I think there’s a specific scene where a Plasma Rifle’s discharge at point-blank range drains a quarter of the Chief’s Mark V shields

[sleek vigil]

Can I know the make up of a typical USNC post war fleet?

[hardy swan]

after the events of Cortana and all that, a few cruisers and atleast 1 punic carrier

[vagrant ocean]

Hmmmm. Penguin’s guess if time travel does explain it if you remember the ending of Infinite. Zeta Halo is insane, so a temporal anomaly occurring on the ring could be possible.

[sleek vigil]

I want like actual fleet formation. The type of cruisers, frigates, fighters and whatnot.

[unique rune]

I don’t think we know enough about UNSC fleet formations to say what’s typical at any given point in time

[orchid kettle]

you get (1) super-heavy cruiser and a handful of Paris-class frigates and thats it

[sleek vigil]

What about Autumn-class Cruisers and Mulsanne-class Frigates?

[carmine sleet]

I think given the state of the galaxy post Created, there's just not a "typical" fleet formation

Like, they definitely do have Autumns and Mulsannes but we don't know how common they are in 2560 to see since the UNSC is very much scattered and in need of properly reconnecting different groups

[sleek vigil]

I'm mostly talking about the Halo 4 - Infinite in-between period. Not after the Crested events.

[vagrant ocean]

And a Valiant.

[hardy swan]

All I know one battle group had like 30 ships they used to defend Earth

Was it 30? My memory is fried

It’s funny Empty Throne introduced two Punic carriers and destroyed one in the opening

[hardy swan]

Nobody knows

https://youtu.be/Xg1ifFP44EI?si=WTPrKRfeWJZlAyo2
this cutscene shows Infinity’s fleet

[stoic hamlet]

That was an Epoch that was destroyed, not a Punic.

[hardy swan]

Oh

[dense falcon]

🙃

It is... right?

I remember it from the trailer pretty well

[carmine sleet]

Lighting will affect how we percieve the colour

I imagine studio lights make it look like that more than the colour it actually is

[bold bobcat]

Hi everyone

Oh hi eon

[bold bobcat]

I mean, kinda

But its fire

[bronze lagoon]

W chat I just got Halo 3 from Vintage stock

[empty bloom]

Considering VISR protective layers seem to be available in damn near any color and are mostly electronically-affected, you could likely set the visor polarization to the materials group test pattern if you really wanted to.

[sleek vigil]

I'm miss the hexagons in Chief's Visor.

[unborn patrol]

Same

[junior coral]

We are able to create real Spartan helmets that are bulletproof and that have a hud as well

[empty bloom]

Nothing is really bulletproof ultimately. Just bullet resistant.

[hardy swan]

400,000 for an F-35 helmet and it's not even bulletproof

[unique rune]

if bullets are reaching an F-35 pilot’s head you have bigger problems than that

[vagrant ocean]

F-35 is overhyped.

[empty bloom]

Overbudget, not overhyped.

[unborn patrol]

do humans use big ships to attack ground forces like the covenant does? like the covenant cruisers with the glassing beams. I feel like we never really see that? only event that comes to mind is like the frigate that bombed the spirals in reach before it got destroyed

I dont read the books so idk if they mention stuff there

the glassing beam for example feels more like a terror tactic than a real meaningful weapon to make tactical damage with and maybe thats why only the covenant uses them. like for humans to do that its like kind of messed up

probably uses a ton of energy too like a somewhat wasteful use of power

[vagrant ocean]

Still can’t beat the 22.

[vagrant ocean]

MAC strikes, coil gun bombardments, archer missile barrages, all have been conducted against ground forces.

[unborn patrol]

hmm

[vagrant ocean]

Hell, UNSC vessels have fired their MAC guns in atmosphere against ground targets.

[unborn patrol]

yeah like more so thinking about in atmosphere stuff

itd be pretty cool if you could use them in pvp stuff like how cod gives you stuff when you get killstreaks

[vagrant ocean]

The UNSC Grafton fired on a Covenant teleporter and shield generator while in atmosphere during the Fall of Reach. I’m sure she and the Saratoga used their missiles and coilguns to engage in surface bombardment durin the battle.

[vagrant ocean]

The kill streak idea with Halo died in 2012, and it should stay dead.

[unborn patrol]

I dont really agree

but yea like the type of ship that grafton is I think you see a lot more in atmosphere

but like what about infinity or pillar of autumn type ships

[unborn patrol]

grafton was in fact what I was talking about here just forgot its name

[vagrant ocean]

Standby

[carmine sleet]

Halo 4 experimented with rewarding players with stuff they could call in after a certain number of kills. It made it real easy for good players to completely snowball and keep winning constantly because they'd just call in yet another power weapon opposed to having to find one. I don't think Halo needs the ability to call in a MAC round in the middle of Oddball

[unborn patrol]

I wonder like how well the pillar of autumn even coped with being in atmosphere. seeing it lift off from reach it looks like its a real struggle to get it off the ground

[vagrant ocean]

The Infinity did use part of its MAC network in atmosphere but against airborne targets.

[unborn patrol]

its a real balancing act and I dont think it should be everywhere. also I think itd be the most fun in PvE

[unborn patrol]

true

[carmine sleet]

That's because gravity is a factor with getting it out of the drydock

It's why it's not easy for us to get rockets into space today, gravity loves to pull things back down

[unborn patrol]

no yea exactly and like idk if it has the systems to sustain flight in atmosphere properly. it had the lifts that shook off it

[vagrant ocean]

Most usages of MAC rounds against ground forces involve the shot coming from orbit,

[carmine sleet]

Well, we've seen plenty of UNSC ships flying in atmosphere so it's not an issue

[empty bloom]

Not the design goal.

[unborn patrol]

yeah but what Im talking about are these very large ones in particular

[carmine sleet]

Like, Halo 2, Halo 3, Reach and 4 all show us UNSC ships in atmosphere

Infinity is shown in atmosphere in Halo 4

Which is like, the biggest example

[unborn patrol]

yeah

[vagrant ocean]

And very rarely are large vessels used for such strikes, with smaller more nimble frigates and destroyers being a better option.

[vagrant ocean]

Most of those ships are frigates.

[unborn patrol]

exactly ^

[carmine sleet]

Again, Infinity in Halo 4, we see it inside Requiem in atmosphere

[vagrant ocean]

Yes, correct.

Not disputing that.

Just saying seeing human ships as large as the Infinity just loitering in atmosphere is a rare sight.

[unborn patrol]

yess this

obviously they usually have better things to do

but still makes me wonder how sustainable that is for them

[carmine sleet]

Right but that's hardly proof the Infinity is the only large ship made by the UNSC capable of hovering

[unborn patrol]

and if doing that would be ok because of the striking capabilities of the bigger ship

[vagrant ocean]

Not saying that.

[carmine sleet]

And if smaller ships like Frigates are capable, as seen in Halo 3, it's not a wild leap to assume the ships the size of a Halcyon class are also capable

[hardy swan]

literally what the Infinity and SoF did

[carmine sleet]

Right but you're acting like it is the only one that can

[unborn patrol]

its not a wild leap but the bigger size of the ship does make you wonder. its got a lot more working against it in atmosphere

[hardy swan]

SoF rained down Archer missiles on banished troops

[vagrant ocean]

No, I’m not.

[vagrant ocean]

I’m saying it’s a better use of resources to devote smaller ships like frigates and destroyers to in atmosphere engagements and strikes than the heavy hitters which are better used in orbit.

[hardy swan]

Eagle 1

[vagrant ocean]

It’s a better use of resources to send 3 Paris-classes and 2 Halberds to conduct surface bombardment than sending a Punic or a Valiant.

[hardy swan]

what

[vagrant ocean]

Huh

[vagrant ocean]

What is that

[hardy swan]

Helldiver 2's CAS

[vagrant ocean]

Don’t play Helldivers

[hardy swan]

figured

[vagrant ocean]

Don’t have a PC and Sony is being greedy.

[stoic hamlet]

This is also done in Helldivers, just, for the record.

The navy ships in Helldivers that we see are all orbital picket ships, made to engage ground targets.

[vagrant ocean]

Like, it would be sick as hell if we just had Marathons dropping double barrel MAC shots on to a planet’s surface, but that’s just a waste of resources.

[bronze prawn]

so, is humanity supposed to find all of the forerruner tech eventually ?

then what, do we become the ultimate power in the galaxy ?

are we gonna be in war for decades again

[vagrant ocean]

Well, humanity is also reclaiming ancient human tech as well.

We will be quite powerful.

[unborn patrol]

power creep gonna be real

[vagrant ocean]

Fr

Especially if there’s pockets of Ancient Humanity or Forerunners still out there.

Waiting to just pounce.

Or if the San’Shyuum flotilla mobilizes for war.

[empty bloom]

It's what the Forerunners wanted.

Though, what the Forerunners 'want' isn't always a good thing.

[unique rune]

the Forerunners were a mistake

[carmine sleet]

The Precursors were right to not choose them

But also like, the whole Mantle thing is dumb and shouldn't be something we try and obtain

[empty bloom]

The entire point of the Mantle is to reject it and go Star Trek Federation-style.

[vagrant ocean]

I just noticed something crazy about the Battle of Charum Hakor.

It lasted 53 years, meaning an entire generation would’ve been born on the planet and would die fighting for it.

Also, imagine fighting a war for over a thousand years

[unborn patrol]

its like a presidency. those that should have it dont want it and those that want it shouldnt have it

[carmine sleet]

That feels a little too relevant to current times

[unborn patrol]

its always relevant

people that want that kinda power are almost never level headed

I think the only way is its thrown at you and you do the job because you wanna improve lives but the power means nothing to you

[hardy swan]

Being the strongest is better realistically

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I'm sure that worked out so well for city-states like Sparta.

[hardy swan]

Working quite well for some countries with nuclear bombs rn

[empty bloom]

Is it though lmao

The form of power changes in response to what works. Everything is in a perpetual evolutionary arms race.

Nuclear states have fallen, lost, and failed, against powers with better cohesion or more tenacity.

The Federation more often than not wins its wars in Star Trek through actually giving a damn about what it's fighting for, not tied up in petty displays of strength and dominance; But winning through tenacity, patriotism, and a solid core belief in its cause being just, with the effects speaking for themselves. It's worth noting that even the time it went against a stronger coalition (The Dominion), they still eventually won due to a combination of being more clever, and actually listening to the various elements that composed it-alongside alliances with the Klingons and the Romulans.

This follows with reality; The Spartans ultimately died due to their arrogance and lofty definition of strength, being a solid relic that eventually saw their strength wane from overcultivation of standards with no actual attempts to change, subvert, or alter their font of capability.

[hardy swan]

As much as good idea a concert worlds is, it’s highly unrealistic multiple species would be best buddies especially in the Halo universe

[empty bloom]

Perfection is an unachievable goal.

Such as with concerts of worlds.

You'll never achieve perfect synchronicity, but actually achieving perfection is never the actual goal of striving towards it.

Because it, by nature, impossible to actually effectively achieve.

[hardy swan]

I think I would prefer factions being independent in Halo. Like I would like to see the UNSC reclaiming some technology of their ancestors

[empty bloom]

You strive towards cooperation and perfection because it is the most expedient way to achieve a mutually beneficial goal, with things like war being a negative drag.

War and 'flexing' of strength requires capital in one way or another.

[hardy swan]

Having a powerful military is key to keeping peace though. The New Republic proves this

[empty bloom]

Never said it wasn't.

But that sort of power is not the only power you need.

It's also not the best type of power, which changes situationally but ultimately revolves around honesty, trust, selflessness, and integrity.

[hardy swan]

Honestly agree slightly I hated ONI for funding arbiters enemies

Imagine stabbing your only alien friend in the back

[empty bloom]

I understand ONI's directive, I don't agree with it.

Postwar, the UNSC's position was tenuous and it did not have a clear dog to back in the wars on Sanghelios.

Realistically, ONI's goal was high risk high reward; If they fail, the worst case scenario was Thel's trust being shattered so utterly-or whoever grabbed the reins after he died-that they direct their martial might and reorganize in the name of purging humanity from the stars. In return for this risk, the Sangheili would be, hypothetically, kept sick and in decline.

For a historical example, America's dominance through much of the late 20th century and the early 21st century-Not touching on current events due to rule 5- was due to the country's relative stability and relative level of trustworthiness.

They acted relatively honestly, they had the capital to back up their strength, they stressed a high level of allyship against a philosophical threat, and they heavily funded factors of intelligence (Such as research) as well as factors of soft power (Humanitarian Aid). With faltering, of course, but the point is that most efforts succeeded. Regardless of your personal opinions on the US' actual 'goodness'-of which many criticisms can justifiably be made-the reality is that that is how the country reached that level of power.

Fostering support as a reliable partner and power in your own right, while mostly honestly dealing with allies, and dealing in acts of social fellowship (Joint military operations, joint aid operations, dual citizenship programs, fostering education networks that span across borders), and not being an active or even really passive threat to your regional and non-regional allies is an important factor in determining your relative power as a nation. The actual complexities of this tend to elude most people.

Military dominance is a factor in a grander scheme. Paper strength means nothing if your troops and government cannot trust eachother; Paper strength means nothing if your children are starving and stupid; Paper strength means nothing if your allies, or enemies, are always looking for the precise position to stab you in the back; Paper strength means nothing if your scientists are executed for disloyal thoughts in the pursuit of their education; Every factor of internal strife works against eachother when you focus on nihilistic might-makes-right policy (Which objectively, will breed loyalty due to the natural tendancy to abuse societal needs), and it becomes a catalyst for regime change or collapse as you continually corrode the support and structure that allowed you to attempt to make such a force in the first place. The harder you squeeze, the faster your organs fail, the faster your nation dies.

The Prophet of Truth's own abuse of his powers in the Covenant directly led to its collapse; An overreach of power that culminated in a naked power grab and attempted coup against a notable segment of the civilization's population, that the enactment of which was built upon the backs of centuries of power shifts and struggles that ultimately undid a several millennia-old empire in less than 3 human generations.

Dishonesty, backstabbing, and squabbling, plus a strangle of resources and unneeded war sustained too long for sanity to prevail, ended in the Covenant joining the galactic graveyard of empires.

[hardy swan]

Kinda saved humanity as well heh

[empty bloom]

It did. Humanity hastening a reckless sprint to regain past power without the measured response of handling it properly would likewise cause a collapse, which is why restraint is always a must.

[sour raven]

The forerunner DNA is really showing there

[empty bloom]

It's a natural issue of sentient life in general, vis a vis the Covenant.

[sour raven]

Well, at least ancient humanity was cautious

[empty bloom]

Humanity being related in any way to the Forerunners is irrelevant. It's not a DNA problem, it's a basic social structure problem.

[hardy swan]

gotta defeat those pesky innies first

[empty bloom]

As a phenomanon I always look at it as kind of interesting; People see the immediate results of forcing an issue recklessly, then fail to realize that the problem with being the hammer, is that sometimes the nail is placed directly over a power conduit.

[sour raven]

Also, the mantle is probably not meant for one species byt a group of them, working together, imo

[empty bloom]

The point of the Mantle is to not be attained.

It's a philosophical trap.

[sour raven]

Interesting

[hardy swan]

I think the didact explained that in Epitaph?

[empty bloom]

More or less, yeah.

[sour raven]

So what are the endless?

Since they claim to have true ownership to the mantle

Or something like that

[empty bloom]

Well, simply put, they're wrong.

[sour raven]

Ah, another species that lies

[empty bloom]

Eh, it's not so much a lie as it is a mistaken belief.

[hardy swan]

another unfriendly species

dark forest fr

[sour raven]

I really hope they are Space wizards

[hardy swan]

they can fly

[empty bloom]

The 'right' response to the Mantle is to reject the notion and realize the concert of worlds is the best way forward for all parties. "Stewardship" of arbitrarily "incomplete" species implies and forces a hierarchy, thus encouraging conflict.

It is the intergalactic equivalent of the White Man's Burden. A philosophical falsehood that is a poor excuse to cement power on an arbitrary factor, but swapping skin color for species.

[hardy swan]

atleast the Infinite boss can

[sour raven]

Exactly

[empty bloom]

It's why part of me dies whenever someone says "When will Humanity get the Mantle of Responsibility?"

Like, no, you do not want to do that. Bad. I'll spray you with a water bottle. Bad.

[sour raven]

Also, it seems HS is setting up some stuff for future plot lines

Do you think executor units will appear in halo games as an enemy type?

[empty bloom]

I doubt it.

[sour raven]

So book only it is

Man…

[hardy swan]

Would rather have Janniseries as enemies

[sour raven]

Was wanting some man made tech body horrors

[sour raven]

That will be interesting, since it will bring the chance of enemy humans to halo campaigns

[hardy swan]

Ilsa Zane would be interesting but she is heading towards Johnson academy

so I doubt she will appear in Halo 7

[sour raven]

Yeah, i think she will perish there

[hardy swan]

Spartan Agryna sacrifice

[vagrant ocean]

It’d be sick.

[sour raven]

I wonder if they would add her as a boss on a linear firefight using the known settings to force armor on players

Basically make a spartan bot use her armor customization, and basically have her as a boss

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe that’s what the new Juggernaut mode technically is

[sour raven]

True

I had that thought too

I know she is out to get dinh

For a currently unknown reason

He was an oni section 3 researcher so he may have a hand in her experimentations

[hardy swan]

just kill her already

[carmine sleet]

They need to be treated like Big Foot and be sighted rarely as Sloan slowly gets the resources to make more. I need there to be stories of them on colonies in the distance where colonists are just not quite sure what they're looking at before hearing someone from the next settlement over has disappeared

[sour raven]

Yes, the horror

[carmine sleet]

Exactly

[deep citrus]

Why is Halo so fascinated with making the forerunners and precursors so outlandishly powerful

The best part of the original set of books and games were that humanity was rather weak. The Spartan II's were an act of desperation. Humanity was straight up going to lose to a much more technologically superior enemy

And them winning vs the covenant was just as much on the covenant as on humanity. But the forerunners? I wouldn't be surprised if a SINGLE forerunner ship could destroy not only the entire UNSC fleet, including all active defense platforms, but then destroy all the planets too.

[spice crystal]

Two smaller support ships could tag along and take on the covenant, humans, and banished too probably

[deep citrus]

Ya this is my issue with it. It seems like they REALLY wanted to have "Oh cool race that can take on almost any universes superpowers :D"

But like. You don't live in those other universes

Now I kinda want a flood book where a gravemind realizes that all he'd really have to do to win is hide in some obscure part of the galaxy and use his knowledge of forerunner ships to slowly reverse engineer a fleet even half as powerful

[sleek vigil]

I wonder, What if the Forerunners had chosen to uplift humanity instead of devolving us after the Human-Forerunner War? How would the galaxy look different by the time of the Covenant War?

[unborn patrol]

oh absolutely. part of why humanity struggled so much with the war effort was our technological capabilities.

this is also assuming that flood was defeated by other means than nuking the whole universe

which wouldve been more likely had humanity and forerunners worked together instead of fighting eachother

I imagine in that alternative timeline the covenant might not even exist

because its religion was acquiring artefacts of a race far gone

[sleek vigil]

Johnson and al-Cygni are possibly married?

[vagrant ocean]

Doubt it.

They just hooked up.

[sleek vigil]

It's from the trivia section on Halopedia.

[vagrant ocean]

It says POSSIBLY.

[stoic hamlet]

There’s no indication they ever married, nor anything that hints at it.

[worthy cradle]

Given standard Flood tactics a Gravemind would probably find it irrelevant

The Flood isn’t interested in innovation or reverse engineering; as for fleets, all they needed was to breach it and take control

It was more effective to just ram their targets and dump FSC into the damage

As for “winning,” the Flood did technically win already in the sense that they beat the Forerunners, which have never been equalled in power

The Halos were the Forerunners’ equivalent of a Kill From The Grave

So if the Flood made a full resurgence in the 2560s, and no faction (Human, Created, Banished, etc.) had total control of all Halos, it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that the Flood would be unstoppable

As far as that goes, I think we don’t really get a sense of how narrowly the galaxy avoided irremediable catastrophe in Halo 3

[empty bloom]

The flood's primary goal seems to be just raw suffering.

[obsidian thistle]

I wondered if at its core its more akin to its own Domain. A twisted unification.

If the Domain is like paradise. The Gravemind consciousness is like a sea of voices with no rest to the waves.

[empty bloom]

It'd certainly fit with the themeing of the flood being the heavily corrupted wrath of the precursors, tbh.

[obsidian thistle]

Knowing that the Precursors wrapped around the Domain and likely didn't make it themselves

One could see it as yet another interpretation of the Domain

Or even the Mantle

[sour raven]

WAIT THE PRECURSORS DIDNT MAKE THE DOMAIN?

WHAT DID?!

[stoic hamlet]

I’m still sad the Flood are actually all in on the suffering.

I liked when they were just quasi misguided benevolence.

[sour raven]

Misguided since when? As far as I know, they want me to suffer

[unborn patrol]

didnt some precursor say that the flood is actually as intended? like their existence was about consuming the worlds that theyve created and the experiences those creatures have had

Ive like seen it floated around Im not sure where thats from

its confusing cus I know the corruption thing to be a common narrative too

and like at the end of it can we ever really know which it is like how is this history even recounted

[sour raven]

That was the primordial im pretty sure

[vagrant ocean]

Especially since we have no clue where three of the Installations are, and one of those three is severely damaged. Not to mention I doubt there’s any samples of current species that have been cataloged for reseeding.

[spark pivot]

That was hidden xperia iirc

Idk where he got it from tho

[stoic hamlet]

The change came about roughly during the forerunner saga/more recently.

Originally especially in the H3 terminals, Human Weakness, and to some small extent H2, the Flood were genuine about their “peace and harmony” thing.

But now it’s all about being angry and suffering and etc.

Both are good, but I prefer the former.

[sour raven]

It can be both

[hot zodiac]

"I will absolve you of your suffering"/"You need to experience suffering" aren't very reconcilable beliefs.

It can't be both, and at this point it would better to not try and make it both.

[orchid kettle]

I really did not vibe with basically anything the forerunner saga was putting down

[vagrant ocean]

It is under the concept of Living Time.

[hot zodiac]

Yes, we might as well write off everything as the cognitive dissonance of the universe

[empty bloom]

A peaceful, harmonious life of suffering.

Actually not that dissonant, really. Misery loves company and all that.

[vagrant ocean]

Not my fault the Universe is a crazy person.

[vagrant ocean]

I hope we get lore on JAVELIN in the next canon fodder

[vagrant ocean]

Yall think Green Day is considered classical music by 2552?

[silk marten]

Were there human sympathizers within the Banished?

[carmine sleet]

There's humans within the Banished

[orchid kettle]

There's not really anything to sympathize with beyond raw ambition and wanting more money

and yeah there's human mercs and pirates in there

[carmine sleet]

Like, Atriox doesn't care too much about the rivalries or hatreds of specific species, doesn't stop those under him from wanting to wipe out humanity but like, Atriox cares more about your drive than your species

[empty bloom]

Y'know, I kinda want a human merc or something to mention that the Banished aren't particularly interested in financial plunder like jackal pirates are or something.

Because from everything I've seen, that actually is a particular oddity amongst Banished brute society-they're more in it for material wealth than financial plunder of Geks or whatever.

[orchid kettle]

maybe they don't mention it because they don't want to admit they named their currency Geks

[carmine sleet]

Ok but does this mean Gek 'Lhar was named after the currency? (Speaking from an in universe perspective)

[orchid kettle]

he had the Sangheili name equivalent of Dollar Johnson I guess

dare i say... Buck?

[obsidian thistle]

Since Silentium.

Which one would argue is the og sources for the domain

[sour raven]

Cool

[frigid heart]

I kinda want the UNSC to go all super earth on some banished humans sometime. Maybe that happens to Zane in the next waypoint chronicle.

[stoic hamlet]

Interesting choice of analogy, considering SE’s current state, lol

[frigid heart]

Yeah aren’t they fighting the bootleg flood now too

[sour raven]

No?

bootleg flood?

[frigid heart]

Aren’t the illuminates kinda like the flood? I watched I video about how the new heavy unit is pretty much the h3 flood tank

But I have no idea, I don’t play helldivers

[stoic hamlet]

No.

Illuminates are more akin to 40K’s Dark Eldar. In HD1 they were akin to the Aleldari.

[frigid heart]

Thanks for the pointer 👍

[hardy swan]

I thought they were inspired by the forerunners lol

Humans in the Banished is like chickens for KFC

[vagrant ocean]

Halsey was justified in the creating the Spartan-IIs.

[empty bloom]

No?

She was manipulated into thinking it was a good idea to make them by ONI.

The proper solution to the Insurrection was to address the reason Insurrectionists felt they needed to become insurrectionists.

[hardy swan]

Not justified but necessary

[empty bloom]

Not even necessary.

It's part of the tragedy of the IIs. The Rebels were down to disparate and disorganized groups who mostly stole resources-far from an existential threat.

The Covenant were a convenient retroactive excuse for a reason-the UNSC was utterly demolishing rebels in the long term, to the point of one of their last bastion targets being the first mark the IIs were loosed on.

[vagrant ocean]

And detonated nuclear weapons in population centers.

[vagrant ocean]

The Carver Findings state that unless something drastic was done, billions would die. That’s pretty convincing.

[empty bloom]

The carver findings were explicitly manipulated.

[vagrant ocean]

Halsey refined the calculations herself

[empty bloom]

Only wanted carte blanche to do what they wanted, and the carver findings were their excuse

[empty bloom]

And Halsey was also manipulated the same way.

Halsey is not an Ubermensch omniscient god of knowledge. She is capable of being manipulated.

ONI wanted unaccountable, super soldiers, and the means to eliminate anyone. Halsey played along right into their trap.

[vagrant ocean]

Either way, it was a necessary step. The Innies were nuking civilian centers, not exactly a group that can be reasoned with.

[empty bloom]

Child soldiers are never necessary nor justified.

Objectively. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's the point of why the twos are tragic.

[vagrant ocean]

Utilitarianism. The least amount of evil for the most amount of good. 75 children in exchange for billions is a good deal, only a fool would reject it. It needed to be done.

Tragic as it is.

[empty bloom]

Except it's the most amount of evil for the least amount of good, in this case.

It's not 'utilitarian' to use a proven historically suboptimal format of soldier-raising.

Especially not when there are more effective means. It's cruelty without definable, practical, tangible purpose compared to fixing policy.

[vagrant ocean]

Fixing policy would mean admitting defeat at the hands of nuclear terrorists, I doubt that will help the UEG and CAA’s image.

[empty bloom]

There is a reason modern militaries, true modern militaries, do not raise children from the age they can walk to become killers.

[vagrant ocean]

Or stability.

[empty bloom]

More than ethics, or utility, it's practicality and capability.

A carefully curated and well-maintained adult raised with a sense of duty, ethics, and morality, because surprisingly, ethics and morality make things work more efficiently than moving fast and breaking crap. You don't 'rush' a good soldier out of a kid.

[vagrant ocean]

It appears I struck a nerve.

Oh dear.

[empty bloom]

Don't go all "Sincerity is cringe" on me, it's unbecoming.

[vagrant ocean]

No, I’m just saying this is a lot.

[empty bloom]

Of course it's a lot, it's a fun subject and I like tearing into it.

[vagrant ocean]

Fair enough

I’m a bit too stoned to carry on. This is getting heavy

[empty bloom]

I was in the midst of typing an entire spiel of why I know the II project was, conceptually, doomed from the start, lmao.

[unique rune]

Utilitarianism is also regularly scrutinized for its flaws as a philosophy lol so it’s not really a great excuse for kidnapping 75 children and killing/crippling ~30 of them so they can become the government’s premiere hit squad

Not that anything would ever be a good excuse for that

[vagrant ocean]

In the end despite it being doomed, the Spartan-II program saved humanity so they need to free my girl

[empty bloom]

Her crimes post-II more than justify keeping her locked up.

Her stunt with Jul Mdama alone justifies it, tbh

[vagrant ocean]

She only violated the Mortal Dictata.

[vagrant ocean]

Not like the UNSC was letting her do much.

[unique rune]

For good reason

[empty bloom]

And then she immediately proves why she wasn't allowed to do much, hah

[vagrant ocean]

Hey, geniuses are naturally dangerous, and they hired her.

[unique rune]

You can be a genius without being an unpredictable danger to everyone around you

[empty bloom]

Or, y'know, stealing information from everything everywhere all the time and shuttering good projects because you aren't in charge of them.

Halsey is just so exquisitely hateable, lmao

[vagrant ocean]

She’s not the worst tho. We can look to Margaret for that.

[empty bloom]

I'd confidently say Halsey is actually worse than Parangosky from what we know of both.

Not to say that Parangosky is, y'know, not a monster. She absolutely is. But the degree of rationale is largely what saves her.

For example, she did directly posit and establish her involvement with all three Spartan programs to UNSC high command when she was retiring. She was honest in the end.

[vagrant ocean]

She admitted it because what could HIGHCOM realistically do? Her successor was fiercely loyal to her and Parangosky killed nearly everyone who ever crossed her.

[empty bloom]

Actually, they could've tried her with crimes, and she freely expressed to Halsey that she'd be fine with it. She accepted what she was a long time ago.

They chose to quietly retire her instead.

[vagrant ocean]

Could’ve, until Parangosky had them killed. She was basically in charge of the entire UEG during the war, who knows who she has in her pocket.

[stoic hamlet]

Nominally site, but she seemed pretty aware of what she was, even before the war’s end, with her signing off on S-III.

[hardy swan]

If it was realistic they would have just kept her as a scientist to further humanity’s advancements

[unique rune]

She seems less interested in advancing humanity and more in stroking her ego and making herself feel less bad about the time she had 75 children kidnapped and indoctrinated so I don’t know how realistic that is

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, she did create what would be the saviors of humanity, and the next step in our evolution. In Gundam terms, she found 75 Newtypes, and decided to enhance them.

[carmine sleet]

They weren't created to be saviors of humanity, they were created to fight humans who opposed the UNSC

[vagrant ocean]

I said what would become. No project is finished 100% as intended.

[carmine sleet]

There's a difference between a project not finishing as it originally intended and something new coming along for you to fight you never predicted

[vagrant ocean]

Unforeseen circumstances.

[orchid kettle]

what if a nose-less alien lady who fancied herself a goddess made Halsey do it by crafting it into her genetic destiny

[unique rune]

"she was just following orders"

[unique rune]

Sure, but she always talks about them as her creations and sees other projects similar to hers as lesser

She's got some kind of saviour complex going on and then spends the rest of her time trying to protect her precious babies after partway coming to terms with the awful things she did

[vagrant ocean]

You’re the holder of multiple PhDs at the age of 19 and the friggin shadow government of the entirety of humanity’s colonies to head a project that you’re told will save all mankind, no duh you’ll get a savior complex.

[orchid kettle]

I still feel like in TFOR, people in the UNSC just had a skewed moral compass, considering Keyes was A-Okay with his role in Chief's creation and Mendez's men were just weirdly giddy about beating up children

Halsey also heavily implies if not outright states that Chief has full permission to kill the ODSTs during the Mark V exercise

Like it may have been the book where "Lives spent vs Lives wasted" came from, but I still think you're supposed to think Mendez is full of crap about that, given how he and the UNSC seem to be spending lives like they're nothing

rather than how the average fan takes it at face value as just a somber speech about duty

[unique rune]

the ODSTs that John killed clearly were worth killing for the greater good, duh
/s

[orchid kettle]

Or how about that instructor that died during hand to hand sparring

and all Mendez and Halsey had to say about that was "Oh cool so the kids are stronger than we thought."

[unique rune]

I don't think anything I've said has disputed that but like

none of that is really a good excuse for any of it either

Halsey's repeatedly demonstrated that she's petty and irrational and a huge liability to everyone she works with in spite of her talents

[orchid kettle]

Ill always be annoyed at how Kilo-5 decided to make up brand new crimes for Halsey instead of actually addressing what she did in GoO

In general there's this strange obsession with 343's material with trying tear down Halsey as she was in TFOR

and it feels like we just ignore her character development throughout first strike and GoO

not that she ever becomes a good person or anything, but at the very least I don't think GoO Halsey would actually be defending the Spartan-II program's reasons for existing

Im sure she'd either deflect or wall up or whatever, but Halsey just doesn't believe those excuses in GoO.

Like that was the whole point of the choice she presented Chief in First Strike

she wanted him to not spend Johnson's life in the name of the greater good

[vagrant ocean]

The one where S-137 severed his spine?

[ionic tiger]

Dude, that was something that really annoyed me early on during 343's tenure. Don't get me wrong, I can understand wanting to be critical of the character, but they went about it all wrong. One of the wierdest things I remember too came from the commentary in the Library Edition of Escalation. I remember the writer for one of the issues dealing with Halsey was commenting on a panel where she talks about the Spartans and in the author commentary box basically says "Well, what Halsey won't tell you is she did the Spartans to fight human rebels!" as if it were a huge revelation.

[obsidian thistle]

I am reminded that GoO had Halsey admit she did not do Spartan-II Class 2... not cause it was wrong but because the candidates disapointed her.

This implies if the candidates were better... she totally would have done it again

[vagrant ocean]

From what I’ve been told by other scifi fans, Karen Travis is not a good author at all.

[vagrant ocean]

Hell, she even felt a twinge of regret about the program by the early stages of Reach.

[orchid kettle]

Honestly my hot take is that I think Traviss was just writing out what 343 told her to write

considering how Halsey is later portrayed in Halo 4, Escalation, and then the TV show

Its consistent with kilo-5 so I don't really buy this idea that she just went rogue

[vagrant ocean]

Even with how they portrayed her in later media, I still don’t view her as some ultimate evil like some do.

[orchid kettle]

even the thing about making the Spartan-II Program worse than it initially sounded (which to be fair, was already bad) continued with HtT season 1 saying that all the recruits were from the outer colonies (even though we have Jorge from Reach and another guy from Earth), and in the animated TFOR, some of the kids die during training

though I don't believe we treat the animated TFOR as canon, luckily

I think it's ultimately all 343.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s tertiary canon, some aspects are but most of it ain’t.

[orchid kettle]

They want to place the darker bits of the lore under a microscope

which is fine by itself

But they also end up creating new details because for some reason they don't think their argument is strong enough if you only look at canon material

[vagrant ocean]

Like, what Halsey did was messed up, but she’s far from the most evil person to have ever worked for ONI.

[orchid kettle]

when like-- its really easy to convince people that kidnapping 75 kids and replacing them with doomed to die clones is bad

Mortal Dictata's opening is actually pretty effective at describing what Naomi's family went through

[vagrant ocean]

I’d argue Ackerson was worse than Halsey with the III program.

[orchid kettle]

The real crux of the problem is that examining why the Spartan-II program is bad means you have to start interrogating the UNSC's authoritarian nature and why the Insurrection happened

but then you know, then you start critiquing the military and the government, and if you do that, the Marine Corps won't sponsor your e-sports events anymore!!!

[vagrant ocean]

Yup.

[orchid kettle]

suddenly things get too real

[vagrant ocean]

And again, if I had to name a single person on par or worse than Halsey, Ackerson is a prime candidate.

Ackerson decided to revive Halsey’s program, use war orphans as candidates (because no one would notice if they went missing), gave them subpar equipment, and placed them in high level combat zones knowing that almost all of them would die.

[orchid kettle]

I think a lot of the frustration with kilo-5's moral grand standing is how the characters refuse to put 2 and 2 together and realize that they work for the same people who hired Halsey

Its fine in theory for your characters to be hypocrites but they're never challenged by the idea that they might be so when they rail against Halsey while also performing evil acts in the name of the "greater good"

and it doesn't even feel ironic

like empty throne wants you to feel sad when Osman has to put BB down like old yeller

when like-- no, I want both of these characters cold in the ground.

but the material wants you to treat kilo-5 as this heart-warming found family

[vagrant ocean]

Osman is a psychopath

[vagrant ocean]

Meanwhile I’m like, “The upper echelons of ONI are all scum and their circumstances cannot change how I feel about them”

Like, I know that had they not sent Osiris after Blue Team, Osman would’ve sent Naomi after them.

And honestly, I’d love to see that interaction.

Cuz it’ll go one of two ways, Chief will get her to stand down, or she’ll be a good little soldier and bring them in, cold or warm.

[sleek vigil]

To be fair, US Military influence in Halo is far less than probably any other shooter franchises out there. I think there's still a room to explore the system, military industrial complex and the government.

[sleek vigil]

They are my Spartans. 🥺

[sleek vigil]

“Oh no, I had to euthanise my quirky sarcastic AI who helped me destabilise foreign powers and gaslight a war hero 😢💔”

[vagrant ocean]

Well, Ackerson used them as disposable weapons. Only Kurt actually gave a damn about them.

[orchid kettle]

yeah I've always kinda balked at fans describing Halo as a milsim franchise

[vagrant ocean]

If anything it’s just what if a bunch of nerds who grew up watching Aliens and Starship Troopers made a video game.

[sleek vigil]

The big green boi is still helpful for recruitment!!

[carmine sleet]

It gets so tiring seeing people go "Halo was gritty and realistic" when we're literally fighting aliens who developed a gun which fires glowing pink crystals that blow up after a certain number stick in someone

[vagrant ocean]

They only remember the hype moments and aura from 3 and ODST, and think Reach is the gold standard for story telling.

[orchid kettle]

There's certainly fans whose idea of "fixing" Halo involves turning it into a milsim

[vagrant ocean]

Which would only work if the games took place during human wars like the Interplanetary or Rainforest wars, and at that point just have Activision make AW2 and IW2.

[carmine sleet]

Indeed. They often forget how goofy (Which isn't a critique) it is in those older games

[orchid kettle]

But like, the most milsim thing a character has ever said or done was like, when Mendez said MRE's tasted bad or something

[vagrant ocean]

Like, Halo 3 has some of the worst writing in the entire franchise, compare that with 4 which actually has weight to its story, meager that it is by some standards.

[sleek vigil]

The moral bankruptcy of “Necessity” is kind of a circular logic.

The UNSC (and Halsey apologists) argue that the Covenant War retroactively justified the program.

By that logic:

• If the UNSC hadn’t been so oppressive, the Insurrection might not have been so widespread.
• If the Insurrection hadn’t been so dire, they wouldn’t have "needed" Spartans.
• If the Covenant hadn’t attacked, the Spartans would have spent their lives murdering dissidents.

[vagrant ocean]

If the Spartan program hadn’t existed when the Covenant attacked, all life in the galaxy would be extinct.

[carmine sleet]

I have a hot take about Halo 3 which may upset some people, I think it's worse than Halo 5 in terms of the writing in the campaign. Like Halo 5 is by no means great in the story department but I prefer the story there over 3

[orchid kettle]

I think 3 is better by pure virtue of just managing to deliver some sort of end to the conflicts introduced in CE and 2

[vagrant ocean]

At least 5 doesn’t have people dying because the writer said it would’ve made things more desperate or whatever bs reason Marty used to justify it.

5 actually elicited emotion from me when I first played it, 3 didn’t.

[carmine sleet]

Aye

Like, Halo 3's carried hard by its gameplay

[vagrant ocean]

I teared up at the end of 5 because I realized Chief was going to have to kill Cortana,

[carmine sleet]

But even then, I think Halo 3 only really has one level which is perfect for the gameplay mechanics it has, The Ark

[orchid kettle]

Thel kills Truth, the Covenant is defeated, the Flood blows up, Guilty Spark dies for realsies (except not really, thanks forerunner saga)

[vagrant ocean]

Fr. The Ark lets the game flex. But let’s honest, the best written game in the og trilogy is 2.

[orchid kettle]

All 3 really needed to do imo was finish what 2 started. And yeah it sucks that it lacks the character and charm of Halo 2's writing since Staten was absent.

[vagrant ocean]

Joe leaving literally killed all potential 3 had. Cuz then Marty filled in the vacuum and the game suffered for it.

[carmine sleet]

Also Halo 3 has stuff like the Cortana moments, which are cool conceptually, are a completely sensory nightmare for me and I imagine could potentially cause someone to have seizure

[vagrant ocean]

Those still wig me out after nearly 20 years.

[sleek vigil]

Again, Circular Logic. 😭

[vagrant ocean]

Huh

[carmine sleet]

They genuinely cause my eyes pain and I wish there was someone on the dev team to go "Hey, this might cause issues in some people"

[orchid kettle]

and I think 5 dropped the ball harder because it had to make you care about the Created plotline

[carmine sleet]

This I agree with, I just wish it didn't have such poor balancing in the campaign

[orchid kettle]

it wasn't an easy lay up by just following up the good the previous games have done, it was trying to start its own thing

[sleek vigil]

I think I've said that on Twitter and almost everyone (who commented) got angry. Some tried to balance it with “Halo 3 being bad than Halo 5 doesn't say anything”

[empty bloom]

Anyone who says 5 doesn't say anything is being incredibly disingenuous.

It's an ad populum issue; People dogpile on 5 because it's the popular thing to do, not because it's right.

[orchid kettle]

I mean I hated 5 on release day with no outside influence.

[empty bloom]

Good for you.

That'd be an anecdote, though.

[sleek vigil]

A strong emotional response, I see.

[orchid kettle]

We've had this conversation before, but its more likely that many people have this opinion because they didn't like it

and not because Act Man actually has the rhetorical skill needed to sway millions

[empty bloom]

And you misunderstand that I think Act Man has that sway.

[sleek vigil]

Well, he calls himself the “Act Man”

[orchid kettle]

I mean if anything came out after a 3 year wait and it kinda sucked, yeah I think that will happen

My hatred has only lessened because I don't really think I wanna live my life focusing on stuff I dont like when there's plenty of stuff I do like

But not because I've gained any more appreciation for 5

[empty bloom]

Part of understanding a social perspective involves understanding the content and context of the perspective against the base material.

From a social perspective you have more to gain to hate something everyone hates than liking something everyone hates, so it's easier to default to hate.

[sleek vigil]

I can never truly hate Halo 5's story. I just “don't want to care too much”.

[empty bloom]

Doesn't matter how vapid or disingenuous the hate is, the issue isn't about quality. It's about the social cost.

[orchid kettle]

What social cost

[empty bloom]

The one that exists even if you pretend it doesn't exist.

[orchid kettle]

This isn't advocating for socialism at family thanksgiving

[sleek vigil]

Try that.

[empty bloom]

Of course it isn't. That doesn't invalidate my point.

[orchid kettle]

If anything today it feels like there's more Halo 5 defenders than ever in the Halo discords

[empty bloom]

Now that's funny.

Not true from my perspective whatsoever, but funny.

[sleek vigil]

Perhaps people became more accepting of the storyline due to the saturation of content?

[orchid kettle]

I think its a combination of older fans phasing out and fans who grew up with 5 phasing in, honestly

[empty bloom]

Nah, I likely just somehow cloned myself.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah and there's a tea kettle in space.

[empty bloom]

That's... Not a rebuttal, Benson.

Like, the issue of a cost of things you say exists for everything, because that's just how people work.

[sleek vigil]

Give me a rather trivial example.

[empty bloom]

I absolutely, vehemently, entirely hate Halo Reach.

Everything from visual perspective, to story, to character design, to gameplay direction.

In my perspective, it is the equivelant of dirty bombing an orphanage in terms of how bad of a game it is.

[sleek vigil]

That's... strong.

[edgy shoal]

I mean, it's not THAT bad, although it would've been nice to still play as Master Chief rather than someone different.

[empty bloom]

But it changed your perspective of me, if momentarily, when I say something like that.

[sleek vigil]

C'mon.

[sleek vigil]

Technically, yes, ever so slightly.

[empty bloom]

You asked for a trivial example, you got a trivial example.

[orchid kettle]

It is because you're already making the assumption that Halo 5's hate is manufactured.

[empty bloom]

A disingenuous take on what I think the issue is, to be sure.

[orchid kettle]

And I guess also ignoring how much people love being contrarian about things that don't actually matter and won't lead to any meaningful cost

[edgy shoal]

I liked the idea of having a story on Reach, it was nice to have that played out. The only issue I had playing Reach was playing a new character that had no prior mentioning in previous games for him to then die at the end. Wasted character in my opinion

[empty bloom]

Hardly.

[empty bloom]

I'm not actually talking about Reach. I don't like Reach, but it's not the actual topic right now.

[orchid kettle]

Its cool, you know

You can just like something other people don't like

[empty bloom]

I do, frequently.

But it's not about what I like.

Hell, it's not even about what other people don't like.

[orchid kettle]

You don't have to pretend there's a conspiracy or a complex social pressure that silences other people like you

[empty bloom]

It's about the social mechanisms that allow people to dogpile on things.

[orchid kettle]

If you like what you like, like it even if you feel like you're the only person that does.

[sleek vigil]

How could you assume that the assumption that hate for Halo 5 was not manufactured is also not a baseless assumption?

[empty bloom]

I don't pretend, I acknowledge the structure that allows people to claim that pineapple on pizza is a crime worthy of death.

[empty bloom]

Because this is not a zero-sum social game.

[sleek vigil]

I've never tried that BTW.

[edgy shoal]

Ehh, try it but personally I don't like it. I have tried it and can say I hate it, it just doesn't sit right with me

[carmine sleet]

Well Halo isn't only about the Master Chief, so I never minded getting a prequel following characters we hadn't seen before. It's just a case of other aspects of the game not making sense given the lore

[edgy shoal]

That too, lore was a crucial part of it. I didn't mind playing as other characters, but it's the fact you never get to see or hear of these characters anymore

[empty bloom]

My point is that people used justifiable criticism combined with social benefit combined with popularity to develop their opinion rather than an objective perspective. It is folly to assume this is any less true for discussing a game than it is discussing, say certain people playing sports, or certain toppings on food.

Memetic dislike is a social boon, people love to hate, and people don't really like to think.

[edgy shoal]

That's where you're wrong my good Sir

[empty bloom]

To say I think the situation is 'manufactured' is a catastrophic misread.

[edgy shoal]

I love to hate and I love to think at the same time 🫡

[unique rune]

Honestly I think they were just a terrible idea with how much they interrupt gameplay flow

[orchid kettle]

Im not even saying that "People say they don't like Halo 5 because its a bad game!" , Im saying that people say they don't like Halo 5 because they don't like Halo 5

If you wanna argue there's a mass social delusion going on, you kinda have to back up that claim

[empty bloom]

You also say that I think it's a manufactured conspiracy a lot.

[orchid kettle]

Because you say that

[edgy shoal]

I haven't played 5 yet, can't comment. Can't lie, haven't played Halo in some years since 4 a long time ago. Only recently started playing again but going through them all again before I get to 5

[empty bloom]

Which is a catastrophic misread of what I'm saying on your part.

[sleek vigil]

I feel like I am being punished whenever I read the word “opinions” because online discourse has devolved to a point where people disagree on facts act as if that's “mature adults disagreeing”.

[edgy shoal]

Bro, are we debating with Shakespeare's great, great nephew or something?

[orchid kettle]

Its hyperbolic, but the sentiment is the same

[edgy shoal]

What's with all the big words 😭

[empty bloom]

Welcome to the internet.

[empty bloom]

Pretty sure there'd be a lot more greats than just the two.

[edgy shoal]

You're one of those 😭

[carmine sleet]

Oh yeah, that's also a horrible part of it too

[empty bloom]

Elaborate.

[edgy shoal]

Splitting hairs, always gotta be right about something, have the last say. You gotta chillll 😎

[unique rune]

If you come to a channel dedicated to talking about the nerd stuff of a nerd franchise and are afraid of big words that seems like a you problem

[carmine sleet]

Not really much reason for you to have heard of Noble Team during the events of CE-3, but we got plenty of stuff mentioning Jun in the post war era, including nods to him and other members of Noble in Halo 5 and Infinite (Primarily on the multiplayer side of things)

[edgy shoal]

Haven't played 5 yet

[orchid kettle]

Who is "people"

[empty bloom]

I think you're in the wrong channel.

[edgy shoal]

Nah, I'm in the right channel 😭

[empty bloom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

[orchid kettle]

Who has admitted to hating Halo 5 because they thought it was cool to do so

That's not a "point" that's your "suspicion"

You would need actual data

[empty bloom]

From anecdotes, including myself, I know at least five people.

[carmine sleet]

Don't worry, like I said, it's the multiplayer side where they reference him and Noble since they did an update focused on armour based on them. Nothing spoilt from the campaign

[empty bloom]

Most people aren't going admit it in earnest due to the social stigma against admitting you were wrong or biased.

[orchid kettle]

Versus how many people do you think are genuine?

[empty bloom]

Considering this is something I glean from research on this exact topic for things that have nothing to do with Halo as a franchise? A lot larger than the question you are begging.

[orchid kettle]

Okay cool.

[empty bloom]

People do not like to be genuine.

[orchid kettle]

Gleaning, cool.

That's scientific.

[empty bloom]

Oh, wow, we're scientific now.

Point is, you can inform a likely case by laterally connecting data points on a greater whole from a larger framework of behavior.

People like to dogpile because there's less need to input actual effort. It's a naturally occuring issue and it's why meme culture exists.

[sleek vigil]

You may be allowed to include myself on that list.

[empty bloom]

Hence why I brought up pineapple pizza.

The actual reality of how pineapples go on pizza is not relevant, the popularity of being extra about hating pineapple on pizza is.

[sleek vigil]

To clarify, whenever I discuss Halo 5, I am referring solely to its narrative aspects and not to the gameplay or any other elements, as I have not played the game myself.

[orchid kettle]

Oh Id argue with the power of the Internet they're too genuine, at least when it comes to being awful

[sleek vigil]

Well, a specific kind.

[orchid kettle]

Hell with the (at least surface level) anonymity of the internet, there's even less incentive to fear social pressure

Because the guy you're yelling at isn't in the room with you ready to punch you in the face

[unique rune]

The anonymity of the internet just encourages people who enjoy hating things to do it with less consequence and it bleeds into everything else which

I feel like that doesn't really contradict anything Trench is getting at

if anything it just reinforces the point

[empty bloom]

... I was actually going to say something along those lines, lmao

[orchid kettle]

Except again that's ignoring the idea that people feel that root cause emotion to begin with

Yeah people are nasty

But besides internet trolls who are purely out to rile people up

if somebody's arguing that they don't like Halo 5

I believe they don't like Halo 5

[empty bloom]

Mountains can be made out of molehills.

[orchid kettle]

As we have seen today, I think

[sleek vigil]

Maybe

[orchid kettle]

because even if what you're saying is correct, you'd have to then argue that Halo 5 is being uniquely slammed versus anything else that's not been publicly well received.

[empty bloom]

It isn't even uniquely slammed in this franchise, let alone in the industry.

The conversational point revolving around 5 does not mean that I think it is particularly unique.

[orchid kettle]

Then what is the point here

That when something is widely hated it will have many people saying bad things about it

[orchid kettle]

Like this is what you said, you started this by insinuating that people are disingenuous of their dislike of Halo 5.

Otherwise, if that wasn't your intention, you wouldn't have brought it up, because there's nothing substantial about saying that people will say mean things about something that's widely disliked.

[empty bloom]

Alright, I need to look up the name of a really horrible smelling fish dish.

The popular thing to do regarding Surströmming is to discuss how absolutely awful smelling and tasting it is. It's popular to discuss, say, utilizing it as a biological weapon online, despite it being a (somehow) still popular cultural dish, apparently, in Sweden.

The reason I bring this is up is to make the point that despite the popular thing to do, which is to meme about how awful a product is, that does not say anything about the actual quality of the product itself. Surströmming is horrible smelling, and horrible tasting, due to its fermentation process, but it is also popular to dogpile on Surströmming regardless of experience of these traits first or even second hand.

People dogpile on Surströmming disingenuously due to lack of engagement with the fermented fish, which is a point divorced from the justification of doing so.

By the by, if that sounds confusing, that's because it is confusing.

[orchid kettle]

Do you think anybody in this server is arguing they dislike Halo 5 disingenuously

[empty bloom]

Yes.

[dusk jetty]

You talking about the basking shark dish

[empty bloom]

Also yes.

Except no, because Surströmming is apparently made of a specific herring.

[dusk jetty]

Well for your point I have criticisms of halo 5 that cause me to dislike it so I think I feel pretty genuine there

[empty bloom]

There is a caveat to this yes.

[unique rune]

Basking shark is like
hakarl or something like that? has to be fermented in urine for months or whatever and smells like cleaning products due to high ammonia content
anyway

[orchid kettle]

Alright everybody, raise your hand if you've hated on Halo 5 without playing it

Or I guess since we were talking about the story, without watching it on youtube or whatever the kids do these days

[empty bloom]

Even if every single person on this server raised their hand, or did not, that doesn't do anything to actually disprove my point.

[orchid kettle]

i guess they watch streamers more

[empty bloom]

That said, I have met a surprising amount of people who vehemently hate Halo 5 despite, at most, only playing the first level.

[orchid kettle]

Cool.

[empty bloom]

As I said about the fish, actual genuine reasons to dislike something-from any hand-are divorced from the social expectations of degree of dislike.

[orchid kettle]

I dunno why me not liking 5 is handwaved away as "anecdote" but you knowing some guys bears stating, but cool.

[dusk jetty]

I played it and I didn’t like it

[empty bloom]

I have literally said multiple times I am also using anecdotes lmao

[dusk jetty]

It’s not deeper than that

[orchid kettle]

And before you say "I never said it wasnt an anecdote!"

ah too late

again, you would only bring that up if you believe your anecdotes are indicative of a wider trend, or at least, would like any one else reading this to think so

[empty bloom]

We are both doing that.

You brought up you not liking it as a shield, I brought up me knowing people as a shield. It's not that complicated nor that damning.

[orchid kettle]

The only thing I want people to believe is that when people say they don't like something, chances are, they mean that.

[empty bloom]

I don't doubt the veracity of people claiming they dislike something. I do doubt the actual reasoning behind the dislike, but the reasoning doesn't have to be solid for the dislike to be real.

[orchid kettle]

And I do not believe "social pressure" or the existence of Halo 5 hate as a meme accounts for any substantial amount of that

[empty bloom]

Alright.

[empty bloom]

To make this more clear, I agree that people likely mean it when they say they don't like something.

I just don't believe the actual reasons for why they come to that conclusion are as genuine or as well-reasoned as claimed. Doesn't mean the dislike isn't real, just means that it's poorly founded.

I'm not sitting here going "Oh well you actually like Halo 5, you're just socially driven to dislike it on entirely faulty grounds"

[orchid kettle]

Besides wanting to be part of the meme, what would constitute a poorly founded reason for disliking something?

[empty bloom]

A lack of context, a secondhand opinion, a misinformed understanding of a flaw or lack theorof.

Any number of things.

In terms of a specific example, I have one, it just takes a bit to type up.

A recent conversation I had in another server on the subject of Halo 5 had to do with its dialogue. A user and I were both playing Helldivers while discussing the narrative merits of Halo 5 as a game. He brought up how the game has horrible, unconscionably bad dialogue, and I disagreed.

The point is refuted back and forth due to the actual qualitative merits of 5; "Specific" lines are bad, in his perspective, but he cannot actually point to any specific lines that are particularly out of order due to relatively unfamiliarity with the topic. I am cursed with remembering most of the dialogue, so I point out examples of dialogue issues I'm aware of, then posit that it is less the dialogue that is the problem, and more the pacing and how the dialogue is delivered while the lines themselves are fine.

The reason why this issue is poorly founded on both parts is twofold; I disagree that the dialogue is bad on a structural level, I believe that the dialogue is flawed due to presentation, minus one or two errant lines of actually bad dialogue (Such as Buck's statement about the elites being brothers in arms), but I also have an inherent bias. They believed the dialogue was entirely shot through due to the pacing and presentation, but were incapable of actually remembering the pacing or presentation, which is kind of a necessity when debating the quality of a piece's working parts.

The thing about a lot of this is that 'wanting to be part' is not necessarily, and in fact usually is not, a conscious action on the person undertaking it's part.