lore-and-universe

[versed helm]

Serina deleted herself after the flood outbreak on the spirit of fire IIRC

[carmine sleet]

And Bungie hated the idea of Halo Wars 1, they most definitely would've hated Halo Wars 2 if they were still making Halo for Microsoft

[orchid kettle]

I guess what I mean is more so the sporadic malfunctions Cortana experiences while seemingly still in Melancholia

[versed helm]

What about the other AIs that sided with Cortina, they could be alive if that's possible

Tho

[hot zodiac]

Yeah well tbh those dementia outbursts were never how rampancy worked and is why people retroactively call Guilty Spark rampant

Also the stages of rampancy aren't a thing anymore

[versed helm]

Guilty spark can like never come back

After he killed SGT like that

[hot zodiac]

I thought so too. I mean I saw him get blown into little chunks. But nah he's around.

[hot zodiac]

(Aside from newer canonical material making him "rampant" of course lol)

[versed helm]

Even master cheif was like "mabye" when the WEPPION ask if they should help, the spark

[carmine sleet]

Do I have news for you, Spark lives

And he helped Rion Forge out for a time

[versed helm]

Yep, guilty spark added to my murder list

In game

In game tho

If he dose come back that is

[carmine sleet]

He didn't kill her, they just went their separate ways because Spark is now protecting a shield world

[meager pier]

We’ll likely never see Spark/Chakas again, as he’s busy monitoring Bastion

[pallid knoll]

where would this shield world be?

[carmine sleet]

Bastion

[pallid knoll]

ok thanks

[empty bloom]

@stoic hamlet The power pack of MJOLNIR is roughly the size of a soda can, right?

[stoic hamlet]

Depends on the mark and GEN.

GEN3 Mirage (or at least Mirage IIC) it is.

[empty bloom]

GEN2/Rakshasa.

[dusk jetty]

Rakshasa is probably small, considering there’s no backplate. It also would likely be serviceable keeping in line with the dumpster diver theme

Gen 2 I have zero idea

[empty bloom]

GEN2's is apparently integrated into the techsuit. I figure Rakshasa's is similarly set up to Mirage and/or GEN2

Because that's kinda huge

[grand prairie]

Does anyone know how long combat forms live/last?

[tawny fox]

Not long when chief with a shotty is around that’s for sure.

[empty bloom]

Hypothetically, indefinetly.

[last anchor]

Currently hes operating as the guardian of a Forerunner shield world called...Trove?

I think its Trove

No, Bastion

Okay

[versed helm]

My phone rings because I got ping

I was sleeping at the time to

Anyways I'm going back to bed

Cya

[sonic lagoon]

What is the biggest corporation in Halo?

[old root]

Microsoft

[tribal trench]

probably one of the megacorps like Traxus or a defense contractor like SinoViet

[sonic lagoon]

What did they make?

[tribal trench]

Traxus makes a bunch of heavy stuff

vehicles, ships, etc

SinoViet is a shipbuilding company

[sonic lagoon]

Was it a monopoly?

[tribal trench]

no

[sonic lagoon]

Who were their competitors

[tribal trench]

which company are you talking about exactly

[empty bloom]

There is not an extensive amount of corporate lore in Halo.

[tribal trench]

unfortunately

someone should DM Haruspis about that

ask what the biggest companies are

[empty bloom]

I'd assume a significant chunk is Jotun.

We know Sinoviet is one of the big shipbuilder groups.

[tribal trench]

Jotun would be a huge company

[empty bloom]

Jotun makes farming equipment, deglassing equipment, and Osteo Engineering Suit packages.

[tribal trench]

yknow its kinda surprising that megacorps arent bigger in Halo

[tribal trench]

When the gold rush hits, sell shovels

[empty bloom]

Well, we know that they apparently take part in militarized corporate espionage, so.

What's funny is, even though it's a gag bit

[empty bloom]

I could totally buy one of the proving runs for FOTUS being to steal a specific coffee mug in a competitor's building due to this.

[tribal trench]

referencing the FOTUS Chillrose description?

[empty bloom]

Yep

That and a few others

Like Raijin and Trendlock

[sonic lagoon]

In Fallout lore certain corporations did crush sticking laborers, did this ever happen in Halo?

[empty bloom]

We don't know.

The Insurrectionists allegedly had some roots in striking against UEG rule, as the UEG were seen as cruel slave drivers (Not literal slavers, just working colonials to the bone), but given how we know some pre-insurrectionists factions included fascists and communists, it could also be leftover spite after the colonial Rainforest wars.

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah.

Were the communists and fascists socially left wing or right wing?

[tribal trench]

what?

[empty bloom]

We don't know a lot about the Neo-Friedenists.

Ditto with the Koslovics.

The latter's halopedia entry is only a few sentences, and only ever got mentioned in Halo Mythos.

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah.

[orchid kettle]

I dunno if you can really attribute the Interplanetary War to anything having to do with the Insurrectionists

Like, you're talking about "leftover spite" from nearly 400 years ago, 200 years before humanity even started settling in systems beyond Sol

[tribal trench]

you still see people mad about wars from 400+ years ago today

its really not that far fetched of an idea

[orchid kettle]

I mean, is there anybody actually angry to the point of open rebellion about a war in the 1600s or late 1500s?

[stoic hamlet]

I doubt the current Insurrectionists have any particular spite about the Interplanetary Wars, but I could see them use it as justification/another reason to rebel.

“The UNSC has always been rotten, even since the very beginning”, etc.

[orchid kettle]

What seems more likely to me is that random farmers, who may only be a generation or two removed from the original population that settled the planet from Earth, are angry about something to do with their every day lives and how the UEG runs things

Like-- Harvest had an Innie element until Johnson apparently killed their leader

and the governor grew up on Earth

If settlers who grew up on Earth are mad at Earth

maybe Earth is doing something worth being mad at

Like, thats the thing about any story having to do with the Innies

Very rarely is a character ever opposed to them politically

Its purely on a basis of their methods

But if there's no argument against their cause, then that naturally implies that there was something seriously wrong with the status quo

[empty bloom]

And people still hold a candle for an aborted nation that had a lifespan shorter than Annoying Orange over a hundred years on.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

People do stupid things sometimes.

[orchid kettle]

I mean, because the American South is still very much a cultural identity and nobody wants to believe they're the bad guys

but is there still a United German Republic in the 26th century

[empty bloom]

Why wouldn't the Colonies be the same?

[orchid kettle]

Even in 26th century Missouri

[orchid kettle]

Because there's no relation?

People try to defend the south because their family is from the south and they don't want to believe good ol' grandpapy was a racist

[empty bloom]

I see a parallel in people using things from the significant and otherwise irrelevant past to justify their current attitudes.

Which means I can see Colonies still harboring prejudices dating back to issues in the Rainforest Wars.

[orchid kettle]

The problem is, we're seeing this across different ethnic groups that otherwise would be largely isolated from each because FTL comms aren't a thing and it takes weeks to get anywhere

[empty bloom]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Halo plays fast and loose with that sort of thing anyways.

[orchid kettle]

There's no familial connection as far as we know between the hispanic population of Mamore, the American midwest of Missouri on Harvest, and the Hungarians of Reach

[empty bloom]

So?

[orchid kettle]

they just cant all trace their heritage back to 23rd century Germany

So the American South defending itself just isnt an apt comparison

[empty bloom]

And I do not agree with you.

[orchid kettle]

There are people alive today who's grandparents were enslaved

[empty bloom]

I'm well aware.

[orchid kettle]

The civil war is not that distant

[empty bloom]

Wow, cool.

[orchid kettle]

And the cultural identity is very much still there

[empty bloom]

Amazing!

[orchid kettle]

But nobody in say, South Korea is fighting tooth and nail to defend the American South

there's no skin in the game

[empty bloom]

You'd be surprised.

Granted, those people are also usually insane.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah

and you just cant assume that a movement as organized and as large as the Insurrection is made up purely of insane people

[empty bloom]

My point had nothing to do with familial heritage and nor was it as grave as the Confederate cause. That was an invention you added to my point.

[orchid kettle]

Chances are, they're rebels because of what's happening in their present

[empty bloom]

I made that clear.

The dividing issues for colonies were not started by the Rainforest wars, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it did not affect present day Insurrectionist actions.

[sonic lagoon]

Ukraine and Poland.

At least when it came to WW1-WW2 period.

[empty bloom]

And to me, I see a clear parity between people now, in say, Michigan, like some neighbors I've had out here, using the Confederate cause to make a social statement, and some random jerk on Gao going 'man, I really hate the UEG, they did awful things in the Rainforest Wars' in 24-whatever.

[sonic lagoon]

There may still be remnants though. Some Poles still have resentment against Ukrainians.

Yeah there are still lots of Neo-confederates in the US.

[empty bloom]

Flimsy causes tend to attract some really weird and really old sticking points.

[orchid kettle]

You undermine the Insurrection's motivation by linking them with the Interplanetary War

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah.

[empty bloom]

I don't care.

[orchid kettle]

I know you don't

[empty bloom]

Then why bother telling me?

[orchid kettle]

But unfortunately I do

and Im making sure anyone reading this is aware of how absurd that idea is

[empty bloom]

I like having a conscious and present history more than I value narrative.

[sonic lagoon]

Not saying they are, just curious if any link or extent exists. Poland today is divided politically from old Imperial divisions.

[empty bloom]

And that happens to involve treating causes like actual real-world ridiculous causes.

[orchid kettle]

Even from a realistic, historical point of view

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah.

[orchid kettle]

The multi-cultural, multi-ethnic Insurrection doesn't appear to have any concrete link to a Germany of four centuries past

Beyond the fact that the conflict resulted in the UNSC

[sonic lagoon]

South America has a lot of Germans.

[orchid kettle]

That shaped galactic politics, sure

[sonic lagoon]

Probably.

[orchid kettle]

But implying that the Insurrection is just Round Two just isn't true

[sonic lagoon]

We tend to be everywhere we can.

[orchid kettle]

The UNSC can fight more than one enemy

[empty bloom]

Apparently the link between the Friedens and modern Insurrectionists is mentioned on page 113 of The Cole Protocol.

At least in terms of historical splintering.

[sonic lagoon]

Nice.

[orchid kettle]

In Cole Protocol, isnt the actual founder of the Rubble and villain of the story a Capitalist

what does he have to do with communism

[empty bloom]

Well

He's not a Koslovic, so nothing.

The Koslovics were the Commies, the Friedens were Fascists.

[sonic lagoon]

There are lots of different communists and fascists, though the Koslovics leader appeared inspired by Lenin.

[empty bloom]

The Friedens formed due to anti-Koslovic sentiment as Koslovics were assaulting UGR Corporation interests via 'workers crusades'.

These corporations in turn supported their own anti-Koslovic movement, which was Fascist in nature.

These wars were fought in the Jovian Moons, with both the Friedens and Koslovics taking the time to spread their philosophies to other interplanetary colonies, exploiting the UN's inability to combat this, until the Friedens attacked Io.

[orchid kettle]

I read the passage in Cole Protocol

Wattanabe is just saying that there will always be factions even when people appear united

And he's talking about all wars, which the Rain forest one as an example

[empty bloom]

Apparently Pge 32 of the 2011 Encylopedia mentions that the Friedens and Koslovics spread their philosophies across interplanetary colonies in the UN's sphere of influence.

This link is unmentioned in the newest Encylopedia but the Friedens and Koslovics are still mentioned as erupting into an interplanetary scale conflict.

Considering the conflict's implications are interplanetary in scale, I'm still confident that there is a connection between modern rebel groups and the Rainforest War organizations, albiet this would mostly be used as just one tally in a long line of UEG transgressions, and not a primary sticking point.

The actual allegiance would be transformed, the politics may have transformed, but there would still be people who use the 'noble' traits they choose as is convenient as a form of spiritual succession for their own movements, as the concept of a communist or fascist leadership would still be well within the purview. So sure, there's not going to be a true "Koslovic" movement anymore, but there's going to be groups that could likely be considered "Neo-Koslovic" in attitude, though not name.

[sonic lagoon]

Could the Insurrectionists be inspired by both groups?

[empty bloom]

Well, Insurrectionists aren't unified

(Shut up URF)

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, I mean more ideologically.

[empty bloom]

There is most likely groups out there inspired by one group or the other.

"Ancestral" causes and all that.

Which is why I find the concept that the Innies of 2552 to have zero connection to ancient movements to be ludicrous. Orders and feelings can last long after the people who had them initially died, and people can absolutely be inspired by the past to the point of outright fanaticism.

Sure, the environment that spawned them is different, but it's a common cause; Down with the UEG and its parasitic ways.

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah. Kinda like how the Russia Empire, Soviet Union, and Russian Federation had similar ideologies but were different governments. Of course the innies probably came from different nation peoples but still.

[empty bloom]

Well, the Koslovics in particular were led by Vladimir Koslov, which is a Russian name.

Besides, I don't believe adherence to causes is intrinsically tied to national origin.

Like, sure, they didn't kill Grandpa back in the grand war of Mars, but they killed a lot of people I'd have called comrades. That's pretty much the same thing, right?

[sonic lagoon]

Indeed. A lot of political leaders can be influenced by people from different countries.

Such as how the Germans looked positively at the Natives fighting America.

[empty bloom]

Ho Chi Minh was inspired and educated by the political faculties of the west, having traveled to the US and Britain and finally being educated regarding politics in France by the Socialist party of France.

Oh. Huh. Apparently he was embalmed, but he wanted to be cremated.

That sucks.

[sonic lagoon]

Indeed. He wrote his own Declaration of Independence. The rebels in Star Wars are inspired by the Viet Cong.

[empty bloom]

Oh.

I guess I can't say that in a historical context.

Hmn.

[empty bloom]

I thought the only real world inspired faction was the Fascist Germany pastiche in the Empire, at least as far as Episode IV was concerned.

[abstract wren]

he followed the Communist Party after 1920. 1 year in the SFIO is not being "educated"

[empty bloom]

Socialist Party of France.

Blame Wikipedia.

[abstract wren]

?

[empty bloom]

It's what Wikipedia says.

If it's wrong, whoops.

[abstract wren]

No, he was not part of the split of the SFIO after 1920. He followed the Kominform line. He joined the renamed SFIO, SFIC.

[empty bloom]

k

[sonic lagoon]

Count Dooku was inspired by Robert E Lee.

[empty bloom]

I mean it's kind of just nitpicking to nitpick. The point's the same either way, he was educated in France, and I made a mid word choice.

Like, cool, thanks for correcting me on what is effectively minutiae in the context of the conversation.

[abstract wren]

He was already 29 ...

[empty bloom]

Yes, he was taught the French A B Cs at 29, do you have a problem with that?

[abstract wren]

Yes, its not being educated. He just joined a party

[empty bloom]

Do... Do you not understand what simplification is?

[abstract wren]

Well you are confusing the socialist and the communist... so its not just a simplification

[empty bloom]

Either way, being interested in politics and working under a scholar sure sounds like receiving a political education to me.

No, I'm not confusing socialists and communists.

[sonic lagoon]

Plus I don’t think any faction in Star Wars is inspired by 1 person or faction solely. Palpatine was inspired by Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, and Richard Nixon. Newt Gunray was inspired by Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich. Dooku is only inspired by 1 real world person, being Robert E Lee.

[empty bloom]

Ho Chi Minh joined a Socialist movement and then made a Communist one.

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, though he was still a nationalist.

He wasn’t a Trotskyite.

[abstract wren]

The Insurrectionists are not communist from what we know. Could be a sence of "nationalism" in the planet way.

[empty bloom]

The Insurrectionists are not a unified front except for the literal united rebel front.

[sonic lagoon]

Indeed. That brings to mind more anti-colonialist countries in general, varying from communist to just nationalist.

[empty bloom]

I'm just saying that some groups could be and likely are still inspired by the same values as the Communist Koslovics and the Fascist Friedenists.

Enough that they could claim direct inspiration or heritage.

[orchid kettle]

Isnt the 2011 Encyclopedia the one considered to be full of errors and included bits lifted from Halopedia wholesale

[empty bloom]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sonic lagoon]

Indeed, many Soviet allies were not communist, such as the Congo, Uganda, and Egypt.

[empty bloom]

I didn't say it was a tome of truth, just that it got stated there.

[hot zodiac]

Yes, because it's just an slightly updated version (Reach) of the 2009 Encyclopedia. Still a canon material though (unless of course you find an actual contradiction)

[orchid kettle]

There's apparently a section dedicated to the "errors" in the Halopedia article for it

[sonic lagoon]

Traditional Conservatism and Classical Liberalism switched place in the US, so defining lots of ideologies by a US perspective can be very difficult, as well as any other country with similar political switches.

[orchid kettle]

as well as an old forum post where they said future encyclopedia efforts would be rewritten from the ground up

https://web.archive.org/web/20150924122751/http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive37.pl?read=1101960

[empty bloom]

That... Isn't a listed error, though.

[hot zodiac]

Nobody has actually posted a thorough error list. It was a lot.

But yeah, that was the 2022 Encyclopedia.

[orchid kettle]

Likely the only one that's likely communist in nature is the People's Occupation on Reach

just, I dunno, from the name

But I think Halo is very deliberate in avoiding ascribing the Insurrection with any particular political leaning beyond "Anti-Earth"

[empty bloom]

Meanwhile Gears of War directly and appropriately labels its primary faction as Fascist

Lmao

[orchid kettle]

closest we get honestly is the UNSC being called fascists by Innies

but otherwise, they're cheeky pirates and or suicide bombers

[abstract wren]

and Bungie was not going that far to the developpement too ^^

[empty bloom]

If I remember right, they didn't even want Insurrectionists to be an excuse.

[obsidian thistle]

The 2009 is full of errors. IE 2008 Halopedia stuff that is based on stuff the Wiki used to do, fan assumptions, HBO stuff, a handful of "Halo Fanon" stuff, and weird stuff that no source had.

2011 fixed some errors, but had some weird changes that still made no sense.

2022 was written from the ground up. Mistakes exist but are not from any fan resource.

[orchid kettle]

Im sure on some level you could see the Insurrection and assume its commenting on state vs federal power, more or less

[empty bloom]

So when's the official Spartan V page with fresh canon about how they killed all the Spartan IVs and joined Chief to make Spartantopia coming out anyways

I read it on Halo fandom and was confused about how that wiki had this obviously canon thing that Halopedia doesn't

[obsidian thistle]

I should try and get Halo Alpha purged again. Honestly it causes issues nowadays...

No one can deny that... its years outta date.

[abstract wren]

well, they don't want to be in a federative state.

They want to be independant....

[orchid kettle]

the sense I always got is that they could be assuaged by promises of a greater say in the UEG

The colonies didn't default to wanting to break away from the British Empire entirely after all

but then things escalated and it was all or nothing

[abstract wren]

from what i remember and the little we know about UEG before the War. Is that it was a democracy. But the problem was social and economical (like trade deal).
Don't remember if negotiation were even made to begin with

[versed helm]

So correct me if I’m wrong, the UEG didn’t want to free the outer colonies because of the economy right?

[orchid kettle]

we have like a couple lines about how the unrest began

Its very vague, again because I think its because they're trying to avoid being overly political

[orchid kettle]

Negotiations apparently were happening, but very slowly and to apparent little effect

whatever "slowly" means

months, years, decades?

who knows

[abstract wren]

When you have 800+ planets and billions of people, its bound to be long in the end

[orchid kettle]

well not every world wanted to secede or necessarily felt like they weren't being treated fairly

[abstract wren]

I'm talking negotiation wise.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, but like I said, its just real vague

You can interpret it in any which way you want, essentially

[empty bloom]

Personally, I blame Parangosky's predecessor

[abstract wren]

Pre 2500 is pretty vague in almost everything. Its logical when the narrative of Halo is not centered toward there. (but who knows, we did got Broken Circle)

[orchid kettle]

yeah but Broken Circle is also on the otherside of the galaxy or whatever

I think its just a can of worms they're very hesitant to open

[abstract wren]

showing its possible to make a story far from the center of the main narrative

[orchid kettle]

yeah but its a story with a lot of layers of abstraction

since its about aliens and their fictional history

including somebody riding a magic bush monster or whatever

[sonic lagoon]

Yeah, pretty much. The UIR were the good guys.

[orchid kettle]

but trying to explain how the Insurrection happened runs the risk of hitting a lil too close to home

[sonic lagoon]

What exactly did they pirate?

[orchid kettle]

movies

[sonic lagoon]

Awesome Possum

So so Cheeky

One things I’m curious about are the Insurrectionist snipers, is their armor the Insurrectionist equivalent to ODST armor.

[empty bloom]

It could be anything from pilfered ODST armor to home produced equipment.

[orchid kettle]

they got real silly outfits in HW1

https://halo.wiki.gallery/images/b/bf/HW_rebelinfantry.jpg

[sonic lagoon]

I think they are supposed to winter uniforms.

Since they are usually where a lot of ice is, not always but often.

[empty bloom]

I can't imagine that rebels had significantly uniform, well, uniforms.

[obsidian thistle]

I do like having reason to expand the timeline I improved on Halopedia for dates between 2100 and 2500. xD

I'd love a story on the first Smart/Dumb AI; early Slipspace travel; so on! A story on the first rampant AI.

[sonic lagoon]

Probably not. The waypoint image is completely different from the Mythos image. Like in real life, such as the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, would likely had varying uniforms due to lack of supplies, designs, and industries.

[runic wharf]

In the same way as anti-Colonial movements were irl, Communist groups Would play a part in struggles for sovereignty-The ones they held majority sway over (because of the very tenuous ground of lore on the Insurrection) are not known, nor is it known what other groups revolutionary class characteristics are

They exist, certainly, but no ratios or further conclusions can be made unless we get a Canon Fodder on it or a story on it

Class characters of planets and civilian life in general is tremendously vague, with allusions to vestigial classes like aristocracies cropping up several times across the human space

[last anchor]

The last officially confirmed communist group in the Halo universe was the Koslovocs, which the proto-UNSC stomped into the ground during the Interplanetary War.

Presumably, the ideology existed further, but not under that specific name (due to almost 300 years of drift)

[last anchor]

Plain clothed rebel forces are also a standard.

[last anchor]

Both threw the unincorporated polities under their heels during the Pendulum Wars for Imulsion

[last anchor]

The Freidiens in the Interplanetary War count.

But that was the formation of the UNSC itself so

[empty bloom]

The entire conversation started due to a historical view of the influence of Koslovics and Freidiens, specifically.

[last anchor]

Ah neat

[deep citrus]

So I'm curious, how close to the Tyranids are the flood? Are all pure forms able to transform into any other form of the flood?

[versed helm]

Pretty sure they can transform into any other pure form atleast

[deep citrus]

I'm always curious why people write in hiveminds. They are horrifying, but in a lore perspective they can't realistically be beat, ever.

[steel stone]

The most scariest versions of the flood is the ones from Halo Legends. There were giant carrier formws and just weird giant floating infection forms....damn

[empty bloom]

That's kind of the point, though you could feasibly beat a hivemind just by killing literally every single example cell of it ever to exist at all.

[meager pier]

The next Halo game will be us going microscopic and shooting every Flood cell

[versed helm]

I mean as far as we know they would have been beaten if the forerunners didn’t keep like 5000 samples

Barring the existence of an unforeseen extragalactic flood presence

[empty bloom]

Eh, SDHS kinda disproves that by way of being a random errant flood filled ship that got ignored.

[versed helm]

Which was that again?

[empty bloom]

Saturn Devouring His Son

[versed helm]

Right, forgot about that one

I’m starting to think the forerunners might now have been that thorough in well

Anything really

They missed an ancient human ship

And a flood ship, though they have a bit more leeway on that part

[empty bloom]

I mean, their population went from uncountable quadrillions to like, a few hundred. It's understandable.

[versed helm]

Yeah but the human ship is a bit of a puzzler, then again space is big so I guess it cancels out

[versed helm]

Okay yeah, just read SDHS, spooky stuff, nice to see hellbringers though

Who I always forget are apparently ODSTS?

[orchid kettle]

yeah its real weird

there's apparently just another subset of ODSTs that are "special purposes"

and its mainly just hellbringers and bullfrogs

probably Black Daggers too

the ODSTs as an organization are very confusing

feels like half the time they're just a second Marine Corps within the first one

[versed helm]

It seems odd to make something as general as “flamethrower trooper” an ODST but it’s a minor nitpick

[cunning jasper]

which page can i start reading fall of reach from after watching the film?

it was decent but i kinda wish there was a part 2

[orchid kettle]

Honestly Id recommend just reading the book in its entirety

The animated film probably only covered like a third of what actually happens, and there's some events shifted around out of order

[cunning jasper]

ok

[carmine sleet]

Ironically enough the animated adaptation doesn't feature the actual fall of Reach

[orchid kettle]

it also has some changes that are pretty controversial

[cunning jasper]

i never understood why they used halo 4 designs when they didn't exist until after the war

[obsidian thistle]

If you want a The Fall of Reach guide. Its this.

•The Book = The Whole canon story.
•The Comic = A faithful adaption that adds cool stuff, removes stuff, changes minor stuff, and is "too" faithful on the ending that it cant work with Halo: First Strike.
•The animation = This changes stuff that other lore doesnt follow. In a canon sense outside some visuals, the bookends, the narration, and some micro-deets... it isnt to be taken seriously as its John and co falsely remembering stuff

TLDR: I recommend the book and comic together. And the animation as a weird Halo 5 prequel

[carmine sleet]

Likely due to resource management not allowing them to make too many new assets for the project

Happens all the time in the animation industry

[orchid kettle]

They also weren't backpedaling from the Reclaimer Saga designs yet

[empty bloom]

I always took it as more of a Hellbringers-are-sometimes-but-not-always-ODSTs type deal, where the SOF's Hellbringer compliment is all ODST rated and certed, but the norm for flamethrower units is not that.

Mostly because it's stupid for every hellbringer to be an ODST. That's double dipping on the 'nutjob' tab.

[versed helm]

I feel like them all being ODST’s was the intention, soley because they sometimes use drop pods so a blanket excuse was made

Again, it’s a weird choice

[empty bloom]

I tend to prefer going for the most rational explanation out of habit even if I know it's against the canon.

Honestly, nasty habit on my part.

[versed helm]

100% fair

It’s especially weird since, we see other groups using flamethrowers

That one marine in floodgate is a good example

[empty bloom]

Personally, I think having an ODST cert for non-ODSTs makes more sense than every random specialty being an ODST.

Like, we hear about Marine Snipers who aren't ODSTs, but the only snipers we see are ODSTs.

Infinite changed that, I forgor

nvm

But then it did other weird stuff like make the snipers wear... Blue camo?

[versed helm]

It’s kinda slowly become a mini marine corp, complete with its own specializations

[orchid kettle]

are the drop cyclops you can spawn also ODSTs

or just dudes in mechs

hell Im pretty sure there's a leader power that lets you drop a whole assortment of vehicles, including a scorpion

I dunno, personally I don't take leader powers too seriously, so I don't think you need to justify Hellbringers sometimes hitching a ride in drop pods

[wanton notch]

Hellbringers in HW1 spawned in the Barracks as well as ODSTs

[empty bloom]

One of the funniest things to me about Battletech is that they're perfectly fine with orbitally dropping combat vehicles and battlemechs.

But Battletech also kinda just tends to treat orbital dropping as casually as modern paratroops.

You like, maybe get a special tab for it, but you aren't that special.

But otherwise, you're just treated as regular Joe Schmoe Groundpounder.

It's basically just viewed as an expectation where most conflicts are solved via boots on the ground.

[orchid kettle]

I still think that if I could rewrite the UNSC, Id just have ODSTs be normal marines

Just have it be the case that everybody trains in using a drop pod

[empty bloom]

So follow the Halo The Flood style of narration?

[orchid kettle]

just as a fact of being a space marine

[empty bloom]

Where it's basically expected because, well, interstellar empire, sometimes you can't just pelican deploy?

[orchid kettle]

Its weird too when you consider how many ships have dozens of drop tubes as a standard feature

yet the ODSTs were originally confined to the 105th alone, so there could only have been 14,000 marines capable of actually using all those drop tubes

in all the UNSC

[empty bloom]

What I always found weird in Halo 3 was that there actually are drop pods you see used.

But you never actually deploy with one, or see one in-use.

[empty bloom]

I do find it amusing that Reach was going to use the Bullfrogs as an ODST-armor-wearing Army counterpart, but ultimately abandoned the idea and made Bullfrogs just another specialist unit of ODSTs.

I feel as though orbital 'drop stations' would actually be a pretty nice feature to have for a place where COIN is a real concern.

Kind of like how Endwar had the Marine units that could deploy orbitally because the US needed an ultrarapid response team.

[orchid kettle]

Whats funny too is how in Contact Harvest, we just hear about "NAVSPECWAR marines"

who assumingly aren't ODSTs

[empty bloom]

So like

Marine recon

Type stuff

[orchid kettle]

But they may be like Johnson where they've also trained to use drop pods

[empty bloom]

On an entirely random note

I find it amusing that the Chief Mechanic of the UNSC Infinity had their own personal GOV Warthog

And that apparently, adding mirrors to a Warthog is against UNSC regulation.

[versed helm]

Don’t ODST’s not even always use the drop pod?

Like they use pelicans as an example

[empty bloom]

You deploy a lot alongside drop-pod-less ODSTs.

[orchid kettle]

The bullfrogs and their jetpacks feel like another instance of "Wait, why don't scifi space marines use this more often"

[versed helm]

Kinda removes the “Orbital Drop” and just makes them “Shock Troopers”

[orchid kettle]

i guess because nobody thought of it until 2010, but still

[empty bloom]

In 3 you only see what happened after the pods landed (They got spawnkilled by Covenant), and in Reach you never actually see a human drop pod in use.

[empty bloom]

Amusingly, CE was supposed to have a jetpack, apparently.

It's the entire reason that the map Boarding Action existed

[orchid kettle]

its time to put an end to the exclusivity of all the cool scifi stuff

let every marine use drop pods and jetpacks

[empty bloom]

As much as I hate Jetpacks, I could see them being a thing in Infinite. Just have it operate on a percentage used instead of a recharge.

[versed helm]

Speaking of ODST’s I set about trying to find a source for that often repeated claim of them being augmented, all I could find was a “top 5 epic facts” type article without sources

Still curious where that claim originated from

[empty bloom]

Oh, like an argument I got into a few days ago with some dude pretending to be an S2 online?

Yeah that's still super weird

I have no idea where it came from

[orchid kettle]

I think somebody heard "ODSts are the midway point between Spartans and Marines"

[empty bloom]

It's definetly not actually canon, though, because it's not listed in any official material that's still canon?

[orchid kettle]

and took it way too literally

[versed helm]

It said, paraphrasing “metabolic augmentations”

[orchid kettle]

IVs have that

[versed helm]

Which is weird because this is repeated by people who go with this idea but it’s never supported anywhere

[orchid kettle]

and ODSTs can become IVs

[empty bloom]

The consensus we hit was 'It's just someone misinterpreting how widespread rumbledrugs are or it's someone's fanfiction'

[versed helm]

The only thing I can think of is I think an encyclopedia making reference to human soldiers using “performance enhancing equipment”

Which could be as simple as the halo wars adrenaline shots

[empty bloom]

So... Literally just knocking out a can of C4 for lifting is an augmentation now.

[versed helm]

I mean the argument itself seems a bit flawed, isn’t it? I assume augmentations of any type are expensive as hell

Seems like a waste to give it to an ODST who has a non zero chance of dropping in the middle of a covenant fire squad and instantly dying the moment their pod door flies out

[empty bloom]

That's precisely the wrong way to view that problem, actually.

[orchid kettle]

Human augmentation in general in Halo is supposed to be a relatively new thing. At least, it being a success is relatively new.

[empty bloom]

Sure, your troops might die the second they get out the pod door, but your job is to KILL people. It's naturally expected some people might just have crap luck.

[orchid kettle]

And its apparently still not fully without its kinks

[empty bloom]

So you kit people out for the times they're not instantly vaporized

Because, well, you want the people who live to succeed

[orchid kettle]

ODSTs also don't always drop directly into a firefight

it looks real cool and im sure its a big part of their marketing

[versed helm]

I wonder how many ODSTS have died from a situation like that though

[orchid kettle]

but a lot of times you'd have situations like Babysitter where its just meant to help them slip behind enemy lines

[empty bloom]

If it was happening enough that they decide to give them less gear just to be less of a waste, ODSTs wouldn't be a thing.

[versed helm]

Looping back to the hellbringers

Giant flamethrower tanks in a drop pod seems like a bad idea in general doesn’t it?

[empty bloom]

Part of the reason ODSTs get such primo kit is specifically because of the ODST ops tempo and the missions they undertake.

[orchid kettle]

the problem of course is how ODSTs are simultaneously either slightly upgraded conventional Marines, or super special navy seal commando types

[empty bloom]

They're "What the plot needs to constitute as special forces for this one length of gameplay"

[versed helm]

Schrodingers Spec Ops

Both elite soldiers and mildy above average depending on what the plot requires

[orchid kettle]

They do everything, but in a way that feels kinda weird

like-- does Buck and his squad "do everything", or do they only specifically work for ONI and whatnot

[versed helm]

I took it as they did regular ops until Dare took them aside

Especially since Buck seems really iffy about ONI as a whole

[orchid kettle]

New Blood has Buck in a Dare Op along with Gamma Six, Sarah Palmer's old squad

[versed helm]

Pre or post ODST?

[orchid kettle]

separate from the New Mombasa job

Pre

[versed helm]

Huh

[orchid kettle]

like, several years before

[versed helm]

I got nothin then

[orchid kettle]

but yeah, Buck's squad sure thought they were gonna storm a Covenant capital ship en masse

which is a whole lot more blunt instrument than scalpel

[versed helm]

Speaking of how were they gonna get in anyway?

[orchid kettle]

uh, nobody knows lol

[empty bloom]

Land on ship, hope the shield doesn't paste them

[versed helm]

I don’t imagine drop pods can penetrate a carriers hull

[empty bloom]

And then find an access point and get in

[orchid kettle]

Best explanation i got is that the drop pods just embed themselves on the hull

like a bunch of lil ticks

[empty bloom]

Somehow

It's mostly hoping they don't get turned to goo by shields.

[orchid kettle]

I mean, doesnt a Spartan in Rubicon Protocol use her drop pod or life pod to blast through a Phantom or something

[versed helm]

Were they just gonna knock on a hatch on the roof and dome an elite that opens it?

[empty bloom]

Yeah, but Phantoms don't have shields.

And don't have nearly as thick of armor.

[empty bloom]

Or find an airlock and brute force it with a REDSCAN nobody apparently had.

Honestly, huge L for that Phantom Pilot

Because you know that they saw Kovan coming

Big props to the Elites inside for surviving that though

Like, not many people are gonna be too alive to be unhappy because a SOIEV with a 750-pound Spartan IV inside crashed through their roof.

[orchid kettle]

Maybe they'd pull that Longsword trick again from Halo 2, where they conveniently just blast a hole in the ship seconds before the heroes would have splattered against the hull

[empty bloom]

No Chief just punched his way into the hull remember

He did that entire stunt alone with zero help

Zero kill assists

Why even have the Navy smh

[versed helm]

Home fleet getting trounced twice in less than a decade

[empty bloom]

(Literally any Spartan ever problably could've done this assuming the longsword bombing was planned)

[stoic hamlet]

Three times.

If we count Hunters in the Dark.

[versed helm]

I know that and Halo 2, what’s the other?

[orchid kettle]

Truth came a knocking for round 2 with his dreadnought and fleet of Brutes

[stoic hamlet]

The Didact.

[empty bloom]

So four.

Actually

Five

[orchid kettle]

did the didact even blow up any ships that we could see

[empty bloom]

• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• Hunters in the Dark

[empty bloom]

I don't think he actually really gave a crap about them

[versed helm]

So basically a lot

How do they keep building new ones so quickly to subsequently be demolished by a big bad?

[orchid kettle]

stories are just happening at a rapid pace

[empty bloom]

It's problably the first fleet that gets rebuilt every time, and it assumedly isn't completely wiped each time.

[orchid kettle]

but there's always gotta be a fleet of ships to job

[empty bloom]

That said, there's usually about a year keel-to-done time, at worst, for ships

Like, hate on the UNSC all you want, but there's a reason you mostly see frigates, and that reason is mostly them being the quickest ship they can build that has a tonnage above 'corvette'

[orchid kettle]

and they make those frigates with a million different roles in mind

[empty bloom]

I like the Anlace because of that whole 'swappable mission package' thing

It's neat.

[orchid kettle]

from one designed for planetary invasion, one for jamming an entire planet, and another that's apparently so beefy that its on the edge of being a destroyer

we know frigates are small enough to be decent stealth craft too, if Midsummer Night is any indication

they just apparently havent really tried to make another one since

[empty bloom]

I think they kind of just decided on making point blank prowlers instead.

[orchid kettle]

in classic fan fiction fashion, i had an Anlace dipped in that tasty stealth coating

the Anlace is so tiny it barely counts as a frigate anyway

[empty bloom]

What does suck is that the preponderance of depicted ships trended towards the Paris class frigate.

[orchid kettle]

I like the Paris

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah they can make ships fast. Destroyers were made in only something like 2/3 months near the end of the war. Mind you they were often “incomplete” but still.

[empty bloom]

Because apparently, despite seeing plenty of ships appearing differently, people think UNSC ships aren't UNSC ships if they don't look like the Paris.

[orchid kettle]

Im not entirely sure what is role is supposed to be among the Charon and Stalwart

[empty bloom]

Which is bonkers to me.

[orchid kettle]

but I like its design

personally I would have been fine if the Paris was just an updated Stalwart design

like its concept art suggests

[empty bloom]

It's not like they had to travel far enough for full life support to matter I suppose.

[orchid kettle]

I miss my Marathons

Yeah the Autumn and its children ships are cool and all

but I crave the heavy cruiser

[empty bloom]

Gimme dat

Vindication Class

[orchid kettle]

the encyclopedia people have said "No" unfortunately

where's my warfleet 2

[versed helm]

So apparently as I’ve just found out, the population of earth during halo 3 was 200 million

How does that even work

[hot zodiac]

Well, originally, it was

"The Prophet of Truth's ships breached the Lunar perimeter. Smashed what was left of the Home Fleet. Terrestrial casualties from the subsequent bombardment were... extreme."

But nowadays apparently most of Earth's population was evacuated somewhere (Earth is no longer the last human world). I don't think that's been really explained though.

[versed helm]

I’d be more willing to believe, though still be a bit skeptical if everyone there had somehow been killed in what was presumably a month, but I’m real curious how the UNSC loaded potentially billions of people into ships, and where they went

[ruby canopy]

It is strange. Infinity is humanity’s largest ship and can ‘only’ hold about 17k people

It would take like a couple hundred thousand of infinity sized ships to move everyone

[unique rune]

I mean 17k is only its official crew complement. If it needed to evacuate people you could probably find space for several thousand more

[ruby canopy]

Even if we double it’s capacity it would still take at least a hundred thousand

And that’s a safe estimate

Well I suppose a safe estimate would be about 50k. And humanity has never had anywhere close to that number of ships

Let alone infinity sized ships

[tribal trench]

Infinity is a seed ship, like the Anodyne Spirit ended up being for the reformists

at least that’s what it was built for before the war ended

[finite laurel]

Ok. Based on skill sets and everything......who would win? Master Chief or Noble Six

[scarlet quiver]

We need more lore from this section of the time line.
I love the bombardment and evacuation stories.
How Earth was attacked, evacuated, and recovers, would be fantastic.

[versed helm]

Oh yeah, is it ever explained why in Nightfall they have to “power on” the guns? Every indication I’ve seen before that has the UNSC weapons be standard guns like you’d see today.

[orchid kettle]

No real reason, it's never been issue before or since

Some people say it's because the naughty man has to turn on the smartlink in his Magnum to shoot a guy two inches away

and I just-- don't believe that

[versed helm]

Are UNSC weapons supposed have secretly been mini-railguns or something? Cause that seems pretty random

[orchid kettle]

Honestly Im still of the mind that Nightfall is an unrelated scifi script

Given its many oddities

[versed helm]

Like I thought it would make sense for the sights and ammo counters

But no apparently you can’t shoot it without doing this nebulous power on

And some guy literally dies as proof of that

[orchid kettle]

Honestly you might as well pretend Nightfall isn't real for how little it mattered

its biggest contribution was the introduction of slipspace-capable Pelicans, but Kilo-5 kinda did that already and at the time, the characters acted like it was a brand new thing

[versed helm]

It also had the Yonhet, who are also there

I’m pretty sure it was even mentioned that in universe everyone forgets they exist

[orchid kettle]

There's a Yonhet who runs a black market auction in Renegades I think

but that's it

[versed helm]

I’ve seen people try to tie them in to the forerunner-human ancestry thing

Which would be really weird for two of the most influential species and…this third other one that’s basically irrelevant

[versed helm]

And the only guy who uses it uses an AR with some guy who was really far away IIRC

I like the idea that somehow everyone involved just didn’t know how their guns worked

[orchid kettle]

The funny thing is, they could have just said that the loud gunshot would have attracted the worms

which is again why I wonder if the script was even intended for Halo in the first place

[versed helm]

Maybe the producers just assumed “hey this is a sci fi franchise, so the guns must be electronic!”

Which I mean is technically correct, with the ammo counters, but there’s never been any other indication of anything like an electric firing pin or coils or anything that could necessitate what the plot needed

[orchid kettle]

because you know what would require power, and would probably be a lot quieter than a gunshot?

a generic laser blaster

[versed helm]

I’m curious if they’ll ignore it forever or do a sweeping retcon to every UNSC gun to be partially electronic

[orchid kettle]

So far they've ignored it

[versed helm]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they handwaved it with “they were all equipped with prototypes” or something

Just say it was an ONI project or something

Funnily enough

It’s weird they didn’t

[empty bloom]

So a skillset that is explicitly noted as being pretty average for a Spartan in spite of what he's done versus a Spartan who we know nothing about and whose feats we barely know about aren't much to really get thrilled by, considering several Spartans have matched or exceeded those feats at this point

Uh

I dunno, something like Locke versus Chief where it's a narrow win for Chief (And isn't partially undermined by an off-hand example of Forbeck's writing in a book 3 years later) is the most likely option.

It wouldn't be very thrilling.

[versed helm]

But…

HYPER LETHAL

My favorite term…

[empty bloom]

People think that means jack, when it both got retconned and Chief's own feats got outdone in the books like a dozen times by that point lmao

Ah yes please tell me more about how 'hyper lethal' Chief is when Linda's sniping banshees out of the air one-handed on a wire

[orchid kettle]

i feel like the REAL 1v1 to consider is

[empty bloom]

1v1v1v1 of Thel, Ripa, Tartarus, and Atriox

[orchid kettle]

who wins between Baird on Rumble Drugs

and Forge (if he is a Spartan 1.1)

both have gone toe to toe with Elites as (seemingly) normie humans

[versed helm]

How many SII’s has Atriox beaten in a fight at this point?

[empty bloom]

Forge, he managed to successfully tackle a larger than average elite and disarm them

[orchid kettle]

i mean I guess Baird dies either way, but does he get the tie at least

[empty bloom]

technically four, but I only really count the two he manhandled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns-Xj5d0IrI POV; You are Master Chief fighting Atriox

[versed helm]

See the trick is to only show up to fight Spartans in a cutscene

Then again it didn’t save Jul

[empty bloom]

I find the Jul one funny. Not because of Jul getting jobbed, but because it's basically the same way he got wrangled years beforehand back in the Kilo 5 books.

Because the entire reason he was even in the position to become the Didact's hand was literally because a random II spear-tackled him from behind and knocked him out.

For a con artist and schemer, Jul was really bad at being situationally aware.

[versed helm]

I dunno if he ever expected to get as far as he did

[empty bloom]

I really don't think he did.

Haha, funni rick and morty reference, but I feel like most of his career is basically just crawling for safety and it just keeps working.

Until one day it stopped, because someone had to shoo out the clown.

[versed helm]

Why was he even on the ground in H5? To personally oversee Halsey?

[empty bloom]

Halsey was looking for something and Jul was dumb enough to believe her goal.

[versed helm]

Did we ever get solid numbers on how big his remnant faction was?

[empty bloom]

Nope.

"As big as the plot requires" seems to be the rule of the day.

Kind of like the Banished, really.

[versed helm]

It’s a halo tradition

[dusty ferry]

numbers are bad for writers

never mess them up if you don't give them at all

[versed helm]

See the 200 million earth pop from earlier

Sci fi sucks at scale

[empty bloom]

I tend to abandon my own sci fi projects because I realize it's really hard to keep track of numbers.

It's hard to maintain consistency.

[versed helm]

How many times has earth been directly attacked by now?

Atleast 3 right?

[empty bloom]

Uh...

I don't really know and at this point I'm scared to guess.

[versed helm]

Probably the same amount of times as home fleet being trashed, which we talked about earlier

[empty bloom]

Well there's also the funny little proto-insurrectionists from earlier, who also attacked Earth before the UNSC was even a twinkle

[versed helm]

I’m not gonna be surprised if at some point the banished attack earth at this point

[empty bloom]

The Banished will steal a Guardian or some other dumb crap.

I am not terribly confident in the story going forward due to Infinite, honestly.

Which like

Man

That sucks to say, but it's kinda how I feel about it

[versed helm]

Halo 7: The endless blow up earth

Speaking of infinite I do like how Gen3 becomes a thing less than a decade after Gen2

[empty bloom]

Parallel development.

Same reason IVs came out pretty quick after Gamma company and concurrent with when Delta Company was going to

[empty bloom]

That sort of thing honestly never bothered me very much in terms of like, when these things start to get issued

It's more about how annoyingly prolific this kit is

Like, Rakshasa is apparently distributed pre-created, so that's fine, but GEN3 Mark VII was mid-rollout and apparently every Spartan on the Infinity had it.

[versed helm]

Apparently it’s been adopted by “nearly all” Spartans by 2560

[empty bloom]

Except for those goofs in Mark Vb I guess.

[orchid kettle]

honestly not that bad compared to how fast Mark V and VI got phased out

[carmine sleet]

They were feeling nostalgic for the old days

[meager pier]

https://tenor.com/view/earth-globe-explode-gif-14366757

[versed helm]

Anyone know what Jul’s Covenant was planning to do after actually killing arbiter? Did they have a plan?

[icy yoke]

John got his armor upgraded in INfinite whilst in cryo. Me thinks Infinity and post-War ships incorporated more efficient portable manufacturing techniques to upgrade armor.

[empty bloom]

*4. His armor was upgraded the old fashioned way well before Infinite, but after 5.

[rugged cobalt]

Don’t think halo infinite campaign was that bad for basically a fresh start

[orchid kettle]

I like it

[scarlet quiver]

Yea, it was solid. I havnt stopped enjoying it yet, as there are so many ways to beat it/play it.

More fun with a crew.

[empty bloom]

Considering the main reason I dislike it was because it was a fresh start attempt, yes, I think it was not a good call.

[wanton notch]

I mean. It wasn't a fresh start if you played Halo Wars 2

[meager pier]

I like it a good deal
Yeah it could've been better, but it was a great continuation of Chief's development

[empty bloom]

That's a stretch of a statement, be careful you don't pull a hammy.

[wanton notch]

It took the storyline of HW2 and continued it with the Banished, tied in aspects of Cortana's rampancy in Halo 4 and eventually 5

[wanton notch]

You're factually wrong based on the storyline lol

[empty bloom]

I should've waited a sec, so I could keep it up.

Not really.

[wanton notch]

Did you even play the games?

[empty bloom]

Yes.

[wanton notch]

Or are you just being typically abrasive

[empty bloom]

No.

[wanton notch]

As usual

[empty bloom]

I'm not usually that bad.

[wanton notch]

The story has continuations of 4, 5, and Halo Wars 2. If you can't pick that up then this conversation simply isn't worth having.

[empty bloom]

It is an inadequate continuation of all of the above, which is why I dislike it.

[wanton notch]

Sure it's a new story of Chief vs Banished but it has aspects of all previous 343 games

[empty bloom]

And it does so poorly.

[wanton notch]

Adequate ≠ actual

[empty bloom]

k

[wanton notch]

By evidence, it is a continuation

[empty bloom]

An incredibly inadequate one.

[wanton notch]

Because you don't like how it's done doesn't mean it didn't have those components

Your opinion ≠ facts

Sorry you think otherwise

[empty bloom]

Right, and I'm the abrasive one.

[wanton notch]

You're the factually incorrect one

And defending your opinion as fact isn't an argument. That is abrasive

[empty bloom]

You're being abrasive, ergo, you are being abrasive.

Don't phrase me as being some jerk and then immediately turn on hypocrite mode.

[wanton notch]

Sorry you feel that way. The game is a continuation from past installments.

Your opinion on how well it's done isn't relevant

[empty bloom]

It's absolutely relevant to the question that was asked.

Or, well, statement that was made.

[meager pier]

Cmon guys, let's try to be calm and civil
Let's ty to get along 🤝

[empty bloom]

Nah, he started it. It's in his court to be a decent person now.

[wanton notch]

You stated it's a fresh start attempt, but it wasn't. It was furthering the UNSC vs Banished conflict, tying in multiple points about Cortana, the Guardians, Forerunners, and additional Halo rings.

ergo, your comment was wrong

[empty bloom]

Okay? What, are you happier for having pointed that out?

Congrats, here's your reddit platinum.

[wanton notch]

You sound like a petulant child when you're not the one starting debates with other members.

Unsurprisingly.

[empty bloom]

Okay, so we're just going insult tangents now.

Dude, take 5 and come back.

[wanton notch]

Not really. You have a tendency to argue with people and whenever someone does it to you, you seemingly get upset.

[empty bloom]

Whatever the hell I apparently did must've really pissed you off, so I think you need to take a break.

[wanton notch]

Funny how that works.

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I'm justifiably a little confused when I randomly have a guy come out of nowhere and act really pissy, what a surprise.

[dusty ferry]

what about halo brings out the worst in people?

[wanton notch]

Start here, and follow the conversation. You tried starting something and couldn't hang.

[empty bloom]

That's a really good question.

[wanton notch]

Opinions, usually

[empty bloom]

Christ, dude, let it go.

[wanton notch]

Because nobody's ever happy

[empty bloom]

I blame the public education system.

Doesn't really matter about what, I just blame it.

[wanton notch]

On that note, we can agree.

[empty bloom]

Anyways, the Banished suck as an opfor and deciding to swap to them as the primary antagonist literally because "People liked them in Wars 2" was a bad move.

Narratively, they ballooned in strength, as well, which I have a problem with.

In turn, I dislike Infinite for so strongly emphasizing the Banished as an 'out of left field' primary antagonist alongside the Endless, and having an extremely unsatisfactory conclusion to the narrative beats 5 had established in favor of a 'quick and dirty' resolution to a plotline that fails to be convincing.

So when "Fresh Start" is mentioned, I took that as meaning a "Soft Reboot" of narratives, because it effectively ties off the ending of Wars 2 (A war on the Ark with Atriox clearly stuck there, Cortana getting Installation 09), which ended up getting resolved in a book (With Atriox going to Reach through an Ark-style portal that was apparently always there), with the important details of how Atriox set up the events at Zeta Halo offscreen almost entirely (For example, getting the guardian-stopping weaponry in a book that released over a year after the game came out), and the important details of what happened to make the Created's knees give way in a book that will not be released an additional two and a half years after the game came out.

It's a soft reboot for the same reasons 4 was. The opfor is a new force assembled off-screen as far as the mainline games is concerned, the beginning resets the main character 'back at square 1' for a new narrative.

"But it showed up in Halo Wars 2" just isn't a satisfying answer or method for introducing the Banished, as the Banished were seemingly only relevant to Wars 2 until they were specifically described by 343i as becoming the new bad guy 'face' for Infinite due to popular fan response.

Which was officially stated in a blog post, because why not, I guess.

[ruby canopy]

We call it. The rule of cool

[empty bloom]

You can't just patch over every issue your narrative develops with Rule of Cool.

Especially not when you're trying to make it seem like your narrative is actually cohesive.

In a specific 'as a game', I have few issues with Infinite's storyline. It's what it caused in the process of being a story that annoys me so much about it.

[wanton notch]

The aspect I personally dislike is the Endless. And if we aren't getting any campaign DLC, then there's a TON of unanswered questions and loose ends left

[empty bloom]

It has the exact same issues people allegedly only attribute to 4 and 5, except it's actually a problem this time, because so much of how Atriox and the Banished get from Square Q to row 37 is alluded offscreen.

Like, the question of 'who the hell did Atriox get a Guardian killer from' is only solved in Outcasts, of all books.

Which is, y'know

A PRETTY BIG DEAL

[wanton notch]

Lot of unanswered questions left to books or comics unfortunately

I was ok when external media flushed out additional details, but not when they leave major plot points for books/comics to explain

Like Fistful of Arrows is a great, unofficial series-- but it didn't explain anything the games hadn't already

[empty bloom]

The fact that Atriox' movement despite explicitly being cut off from leaving the Ark due to the Supercarrier's destruction is just mind-boggling to me.

And like

Nobody seems to take serious umbrage over that

[last anchor]

"Imma open this portal."

[empty bloom]

Hell, I saw people more excited about it than I saw angry about it.

[last anchor]

Does so.

WHAT

Homeboy just leaves the Ark

Bruh.

[empty bloom]

Like, "OMG, it's so cool, Atriox is here, Halo is saved!"

[orchid kettle]

no, Escharum is here

now Halo is saved

[last anchor]

Why do I get the feeling COVID made the writing process get a bit choppy.

[wanton notch]

I don't even think we can blame Covid. I think their whole focus was on Multiplayer from the start

[empty bloom]

It problably doesn't help when you harass the writer of the previous main entry so much that they just outright quit the field entirely.

[wanton notch]

Maybe it's unfair to say that, but it seems like we just missed a bunch of key plot points

[last anchor]

The fandom has an annoying tenedency to do that.

[orchid kettle]

Nah, 343 for the longest has been pretty flip-floppy

[last anchor]

Didnt they force Brian Reed back to comics?

[empty bloom]

I don't even think he does that anymore

[orchid kettle]

There's a Brian Reed that apparently has a very successful podcast

but I dunno if that's the same guy

[empty bloom]

It isn't.

... Uh.

I think Brian Reed's wikipedia page got removed too

[last anchor]

Yeesh.
I knew the fanbase ate him for Next 72 Hours but...

I get the feeling this is why a lot of other games dont rely so much on the overarching story for the campaign anymore.

Alongside not paying for it, cause it doesnt give as much back of course.

Multiplayer and MTX be the mainline now and I dont think its going away.

[empty bloom]

Brian Reed's official blogsite apparently got culled.

And the wiki page got culled around 2017.

He apparently worked as an additional writer for Halo Wars 2.

[empty bloom]

I have the feeling it was getting vandalized or something. Wayback Machine is uh... Spartan, when it comes to his page. And his old Twitter account is currently owned by some weirdo who looks nothing like him.

Apparently his original account actually got culled at some point in October 2016, with tweets protected around July of the same year.

[last anchor]

I remember he got mad at someone on Twitter and that got him in trouble.

Said something you arent supposed too? Maybe the stress got to him.

I never look into the people working on stuff, I just play the games and read the books and learn through osmosis for the rest

[empty bloom]

If it's what I think you are talking about, it was a spiel with Franky that people didn't understand Halo 5.

[last anchor]

That might have been it, that sounds familiar.

[empty bloom]

Which, while that is an unprofessional thing to outright say, I find it hard to disagree with them on the subject, because when it comes to 5, CERTAIN PEOPLE WITH LAUDED OPINIONS are downright ignant.

[last anchor]

I got into some fairly deep arguments about it.
Lot of people really were not happy with...everything.

My only complaint was we got Blue Team for 3 missions. Thats it.
Guess tha tmakes me less of a fan or something?

[empty bloom]

I love 5's story direction. That means I was apparently like 8 when 5 came out.

Somehow.

[last anchor]

I was excited for the possibility of supreme AI overlords.
Annnd then that got dumpstered...

Such is the life of a fan, yeah?

[dusk jetty]

5’s story direction was wasted if you ask me

[last anchor]

At the very least most of the complaints about the game arent about weapon balancing which is a NICE change of pace (looking at you, Battlefield)

[dusk jetty]

The weapons in general is actually usually praised I feel like for 5

[empty bloom]

I really don't like The Weapon.

[low wigeon]

I just tried rocket jumping didn’t work as attended

[empty bloom]

They're basically everything I disliked about CE and 2 Cortana, but made more quippy

[dusk jetty]

Ka-blooey

[empty bloom]

Shoulda used Fret as your AI, he tells you it doesn't work.

[low wigeon]

I said thanks to fret for the warning

[dusk jetty]

I think the weapon is ok at best, but I think I should give her another chance in the next game, assuming she shows and up (and there is a next game.)

[empty bloom]

I mean it doesn't matter if I hated her

She's gonna stick around

Much to my chagrin

[low wigeon]

But thanks to my good teammates we won the match on heroic mode

[empty bloom]

This is the lore/universe chat, btw, in case you didn't notice.

Not really for MP talk stuff.

[low wigeon]

Oh sorry I thought I was in #general-chat

[dusk jetty]

I want her to have a different name besides Cortana though, said it before, but I want her new name to be Athena

[empty bloom]

If they go with Cortana I will be actually pissed off at the pull that is.

[dusk jetty]

Infinite made a big deal about how she was different so why can’t she be different

[empty bloom]

What's annoying is like

She

Literally isn't different, not in any super important way

She's clearly a volitional AI, she outright deletes the thing meant to delete her, which is a HUGE red flag

And she's still a Halsey brain donor

Really nasty replacement goldfish vibes that I just do not like

[low wigeon]

Same

[dusk jetty]

I meant as in regards to Cortana, because the whole ||doisac go boom|| scene it was made like some sort of horrifying revelation that she was from the same place as Cortana

(Which it isn’t)

[low wigeon]

My spartan looks like master chief

[empty bloom]

I swear, 343 just speedran the Halo OT problem and nobody ever realizes it.

[dusk jetty]

What would be that problem?

Besides goofy dialogue

[empty bloom]

Serviceable first game story, hectic but mostly solid second game story that ends on an unreasonably large cliffhanger and has a lot of growing pains, middling final story that destroys a lot of character development in favor of 'safe' options and cheap drama.

[dusk jetty]

Ah, I see

[empty bloom]

Granted, Infinite still does better than 3 does, but that's a bar Andre the Giant could limbo under standing straight.

[dusk jetty]

There are a lot of directions 343 could go in the next chapter, but frankly infinite is left on much more a cliffhanger than 2, because we don’t know where we’re going next, unlike the ark, and we don’t know what is next, unlike “finishing this fight”

It just… ends.

[empty bloom]

Well, kinda. Atriox is the game's equivalent to Chief floating to an unknown world in 3, and Chief is the equivelant of the Arbiter's "take us home".

Still clear and obvious continuation hooks, but completely untouched because reasons.

[last anchor]

And the whole multiplayer storyline...ugh

Well, if we keep treating it like Destiny, then maybe we'll get a Forsaken equivilent

[empty bloom]

That getting scrapped was simultaneously understandable and infuriating.

[empty bloom]

Nah, Lightfall.

[dusty ferry]

oh god

[dusk jetty]

Reminds me of when I start writing without a plan and eventually become too lazy to finish it, come back later, and think “how could I have gone forward with this anyway.”

[empty bloom]

Right?

[dusk jetty]

Different, because they weren’t lazy, they had to, but the same as in “how would they go forward anyway”

[empty bloom]

As I said, I'm very pessimistic about the actual story going forward right now.

[dusk jetty]

I have hope, but not sure where to place it because it’s so nebulous

*hopium

I should say

[wanton notch]

I just wanna see some Red Team action but I'm gonna be waiting a while

[lapis dome]

whats the best way tro play the 360 or mcc? for campaign

[dusty ferry]

like another 4-5 years at least

[last anchor]

If one things for sure they're not going to just throw it under the bus and forget about it.
Im not sure they could if they tried.

[wanton notch]

Yep

[dusk jetty]

This isn’t a 30 years later kind of thing

A title card saying “the future…” ain’t gonna suffice at least not for me

[empty bloom]

I kinda wish they ended 5 like they meant to at one point. With Blue team stuck in the Cryptum.

That would've made for a much different set of possibilities.

[dusk jetty]

That would’ve made people infuriated

[empty bloom]

Like they weren't already?

[dusk jetty]

Chief not being there for a sec would’ve made all hell break loose

[dusty ferry]

it'd have basically been halo 2's ending tbh

[empty bloom]

I mean it basically already kinda was

Big bad guy things are happening and they've got huge cards in the next game

Sure, Chief's not shacked up on the big baddy's ship.

[empty bloom]

Narratively, yeah. You kinda can't. Everything that's been done is a big deal. It's why I'm so baffled by the direction.

Like, Infinite ends on a huge cliffhanger, the MP ends on a huge cliffhanger, 5 ended on a huge cliffhanger

[last anchor]

Commitment issues, LMAO

[empty bloom]

Why the hell is everyone running off the edge of this damn mesa?

[wanton notch]

Things I'm still waiting for them to clear up:
-Who was the UNSC signal at the end of Infinite? ||(Probably SoF)||
-What's Atriox's plan?
-Will we see Offensive Bias? More Forerunner threats?
-Where's the rest of the Infinity and crew? Jun? Lasky and Palmer?

And there's probably tens of other points without answers

[empty bloom]

Couldn't be SOF and I'd rather it not be that much of an endpull.

[wanton notch]

Why couldn't it? It's actually heavily hinted that it is SOF

[empty bloom]

By what?

I've seen the cut cutscene, mind, there's natch that hints to the origin, just that it's a friendly contact. That could be a lot of people.

[wanton notch]

I guess it's not implied it's SOF but it is UNSC

In the Rubicon Protocol, Spartan Kovan and some marines use a beacon to send a message to human space, containing the coordinates of Zeta Halo

[empty bloom]

It being the SoF wouldn't make much sense because they're still embattled at the Ark.

[wanton notch]

The key being human space

Unsure if SOS would get the alert or not

[empty bloom]

Even after everything they're still there, still fighting, in what can no longer be called human space with no slipspace drive.

[meager pier]

It's Doomguy who's come to help Chief

[wanton notch]

[empty bloom]

I think it was likely gonna be the rest of Blue Team or the Infinity's hull or something.

Because where Chief was was apparently a comm dead zone.

[wanton notch]

The other thing, I'm not sure if it's laziness in design or what, but there are also tons of Banished ships still in orbit

[empty bloom]

Which is why Rubicon's survivors were so pinned down, it was a natural island that you couldn't talk about or around or get off of.

[carmine sleet]

Spirit of Fire is outside the galaxy and Jun was never on Infinity

[wanton notch]

So whoever is coming is gonna be fighting a tough fight

[wanton notch]

Oh right he was on Laconia station's sister station

Duh

[carmine sleet]

Good thing Chief did a number on Banished leadership

[empty bloom]

If someone new was showing up at all and it wasn't Chief just finding Zeta Halo's equivalent to Alpha Base.

[carmine sleet]

We don't know if Jun was on Laconia Station if it blew up, we just know he wasn't on Infinity

[wanton notch]

He wasn't on Laconia station

He was on one of the other two hidden ones

It's in one of the Canon Fodder entries

[meager pier]

He was on his lunch break on Laconia when it blew up 😆

[last anchor]

Laconia's loss wasnt even all that bad, which Im mildly annoyed about.
That whole bit with Cortana doing all these evil things...and then the extended lore just wipes two of them under the rug in terms of capability.
Yeah she fired Sydney...but Syndey was almost pulverized during the war anyway.
They lost Laconia...but theres two other Spartan stations PLUS AJJAMS. And who knows how many other faiclities hidden away.

Midnight still exists.

So the only really bad thing she did was blow up Doisac, which still comes out of nowhere and its like "Im sorry wait WHAT"

[empty bloom]

It's not even something we knew Guardians could do lmao

[last anchor]

Literally rugpull

I mean, its well within Forerunner capability, thats not the bit Im surprised about.
Just...why use that NOW?

[empty bloom]

It's within forerunner capability but it seems like it also kinda just

Mildly inconvenienced brutes?

Because apparently every major brute faction evacuated a lot of people?

Which I mean, it makes sense Cortana would let them do that because she's not that much of a monster, but still?

[empty bloom]

Also why use it ever, because... It's really not that useful.

Your default ability of just frying electronics via emp pulses seems more useful for forcing order lmao

[last anchor]

At least the planet wasnt annhilated like it was in Star Wars canon.
In Legends there was an astroid field that you could go too and pay your respects, and even had a colony in it for survivors.

Canon, no clue.

The Brutes, obviously, started mining the remains of their home as soon as the rocks cooled because of course they did.

Very in character for them.

[empty bloom]

Make monkemetalnade out of monkeworlds?

[carmine sleet]

Pretty sure there was a comic about the aftermath of Alderan's destruction released in 2016? I'd have to check though

[last anchor]

If they fixed that hole I'm gonna call it a win.

Also, theres a visor you can wear in Infinite apparently made out of reclaimed materials from Doisac so...yeah, they're making stuff.

Kind of grim in truth, though not the first one. Theres a visor in 5 with bits of glass from fallen worlds.

[empty bloom]

I always kinda figured that having a piece of glass from your glassed homeworld actually wouldn't be considered that weird of a souvenir.

Huh. TIL they toyed with having enslaved elite fodder in Infinite.

[manic furnace]

can somone DM me the lowest to highest ranks an elite can achieve

[tribal trench]

Dm you?

why?

https://www.halopedia.org/Template:Sangheili_Ranks

well here's all the ranks

[manic furnace]

i dont support wikipedia

sorry

if you can screenshot it that be great

[empty bloom]

The hell do you mean 'Don't support Wikipedia'

Halopedia's its own fan run site anyways

[tribal trench]

how can you not support wikipedia

[sonic lagoon]

Wikipedia lol

[tribal trench]

sorry for ping

yeah they have their problems but like

[manic furnace]

dont trust the people

[empty bloom]

Oh no Titan aaaah I'm so angry at you now grrrrrrr

[manic furnace]

also thanks

[tribal trench]

??

ok no im

genuinely curious

whats your problem with wikipedia

what did the people do

[manic furnace]

just told you

also this info isent telling me the ranks its telling me their origin

[last anchor]

Time to go digging on Halopedia brother. They're in order

[manic furnace]

nvm clicked on the wrong thing

[last anchor]

That'll do it, lol.

[manic furnace]

also i asked whats high and low its just telling me the ranks i want to know which are the highest and the lowest

[tribal trench]

I dont think sangheili quite follow the same human rank structures 1:1

in fact im quite sure a lot of it is based on the whole honor aspect of sangheili culture

[stoic hamlet]

I mean, even human rank structures aren’t a flat ladder.

It’s more about operational authority.

[tribal trench]

well yeah, but we still have a well defined chain of command

[empty bloom]

Elite ranks are just goofy in general.

[tribal trench]

admirals and generals might not have rank over one or the other but a private and a lieutenant do

[last anchor]

Minor is probably the lowest, I think we can agree on that.
Minor in various names and titles and with different responsabilities.

Highest you'll seeon the field is probably a Field Marshal?

[stoic hamlet]

Sure, but there are situations where a Petty Officer has command over a Lieutenant, or a Sergeant has priority over a Captain, depending on mission scope and etc.

That’s what I mean.

[empty bloom]

Eeeeehhhhhh

Kkkkkinda.

So like, operationally, you're going to be doing what your CO says unless it's stupid to the best of your abilities.

The stupid part being 'illegal' or 'impossible'.

[manic furnace]

man imagin how elites must feel having their council shattered by the brutes

[empty bloom]

You have wiggle room in how you execute that command.

[stoic hamlet]

Obviously there’s still an established chain of command.

But there are instances where such deviations of rank can occur.

[empty bloom]

Usually for medical fields.

Also, non US forces are not beholden to this.

[tribal trench]

a naval airman will follow the directions of his commanding officer unless that command will be of active detriment to the aviator or someone else in his squadron

[empty bloom]

The US gets as far as it does because noncoms have a capability to execute objectives based upon their own autonomy.

But Russians, on the other hand, have far more detrimentally rigid doctrine that does not allow for such excesses.

[stoic hamlet]

Yes? I never said they wouldn’t.

Just that in certain situations, on certain missions, and amongst certain units, rank takes a backseat to individual skills and specialities.

[last anchor]

They felt bad for a little bit.
Then they were dead.

Actually, the literal breaking is covered in the latter part of Broken Circle is it not?

[stoic hamlet]

At any rate, what are you looking for specifically @manic furnace? Like, military ranks?

[tribal trench]

wasnt arguing with you or trying to dispute what you said

[stoic hamlet]

Ah, apologies, thought discord pulled a funny and you were responding to me.

[manic furnace]

i know nothing of the elites they are my favorite characters and i wish to learn more about them

why do you ask? @stoic hamlet

[last anchor]

Oh you got a LOT of work ahead of you mate

20 years worth

[manic furnace]

im screwed

[meager pier]

Something I really hope 343 doesn't do is abandon the Endless plot thread, they have that issue of beginning a storyline, only to ditch it in the next game
There's potential there, especially with the Precursor hints, please don't drop it, 343

[manic furnace]

i love the halo inf ending i hope they dont cut it off like you said

[tribal trench]

I love 343 but I have to admit that yeah that has been a bit of a problem over the last decade

[manic furnace]

343 did great for 4, 5 and infinite cant wait to see the next game

[steel stone]

I cant think of anything creative on what the Endless could be and and what they would be like fighting against.

[meager pier]

I'm guessing the Endless are either a form of the Precursors, or a servant species of the Precursors

[manic furnace]

none i think

[empty bloom]

They are expert soupmakers

[steel stone]

arent the flying skimmers creature precursors the baby ones? they have the same head shape as the precursors I notice

[meager pier]

I'd say the evidence leans more towards them being in that catagory than not

[steel stone]

Has anyone taken a look at the skimmers they look like baby precursors

lol

[meager pier]

Skimmer species name is Gasgira, while Endless species name is Xalanyn

[steel stone]

oh snap they had a actual name like the ungoy and kig yar

cool thanks for sharing that

[manic furnace]

i had no idea thanks man

i thought they were jsut called skimmers

[steel stone]

Same

i heard the endless are immune to halo rings firing i cant remember

i just thought of something about the flood

they have higher stages they reach in intelligence with the more knowledge they get from absorbing people and were precursors

i think if the flood got enough knowledge and power do you think their flood forms would look more symmetrical and revert into something that would end up looking more precursor looking?

i looked at the halo 4 flood spartan and he looks very evolved for a flood form. he has a very symmetrical design and less overly mutated and more formed. could this be the flood evolving to a higher stage we never saw before?

im probaly wrong or whatever just a something i thought of

[empty bloom]

The flood have many different forms and it is a mistake to assume them incapable of more than a handful of physiologies.

For example, Infinite's Flood Spartans.

The flood seem to prioritize making 'armor' on more robust physiologies like a Spartan's.

Over 'weapons' like on combat forms.

[steel stone]

i noticed flood jorge...damn..

[steel stone]

now you mention it the flood treat flood spartans very differently, did you see the halo 2 anniversary flood spartan that is actually from hell

this makes me really wish we got to see more flood forms that flood could take in the games, they felt so limited

[meager pier]

The Flood is a form of the Precursors as well, all their physical forms seem to be shadows or vehicles or their true existence

[steel stone]

https://www.halopedia.org/Precursor

Theres this image I saw on halopedia they look very odd but cool still

I was given stuff from halo fanon, damn their creativity is just horrible. bruh why they got metroid stuff in there??? what is going on XDDD

are these fanmade or actual official pictures of precursors?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58e1668c2e69cfd46ac3028a/1605498840522-UYRO5H7197L3APJLEM05/halo+precursors

[meager pier]

That's really just 1 form, as they evolve into any lifeform they wish
Outcasts implies that they may truly exist outside of space and time

[steel stone]

just like the pure flood forms from halo 3. they can change into different forms

its like some parts of precursors still remains in the flood that is crazy

ok i really want the flood to return in halo now more than ever this is actually really awesome learning about

[meager pier]

Oh this is true, as the Flood are a form of them, much like how the Endless likely are as well

[steel stone]

gravemind says he was a timeless curse and being timeless is endless.

holy crap

[wanton notch]

[steel stone]

gravemind from halo 3 had such fantastic dialogue i would of loved to have seen him talk to the didact because the are both insanely smart

imagine how they would speak to each other that would be insanely cool

[steel stone]

i had not played halo 3 in ages but its story still stuck with me

[sonic lagoon]

Were the Halo 4 flood from flood spores?

[empty bloom]

They were a simulated representation of flood-infected Spartans.

By the time frame of Halo 4, the UNSC had some degree of knowledge of how a flood infected Spartan operates, due to the loss of Fireteam Leviathan.

[steel stone]

halo 4 flood spartan looks very odd. why does he had a red growth instead of an infection form? what were they trying to say?

[empty bloom]

So the Infection form in 4 is supposed to be burrowed inside the back and using the suit and Spartan's sensory organs and systems instead.

[grand prairie]

Considering that they used sentinel beams and heatwaves would the banished use the halo 4 promethean weapons if they found them?