#lore-and-universe

1 messages Ā· Page 51 of 1

empty bloom
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And unlike the IIIs, she can't rationalize it like this.

ed2.png
plush compass
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Halsey is a literal šŸ¤“ in ghosts of onyx

orchid kettle
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Sure, but it feels like Majestic's introduction and the couple first episodes are on halsey's side

versed helm
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Part of me wonders if itā€™d be better if they just were never unmasked

empty bloom
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Granted, she was worse about it with IVs for another reason, namely the whole 'being an indentured servant' thing

orchid kettle
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Majestic stumbles, DeMarco doesnt seem professional

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But Thorne steps up in the end and, I dunno I guess he doesnt exactly save the day

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so much as save Glassman

empty bloom
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I mean, you can't come right out the gate and have Halsey be unambiguously in the wrong when you're trying to maintain a narrative that ONI is not to be trusted.

meager pier
empty bloom
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Apparently the 'where' of Majestic during that whole bomb crisis was actually on the opposite side of the continent.

empty bloom
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So they can to LETTING GO.

orchid kettle
empty bloom
orchid kettle
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considering it ends with Halsey kinda making a heroic speech about how cool Chief is

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and the music swells and the camera zooms in slowly

versed helm
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I forgot was it ever explained what the deal was with the intro cutscene and the armor?

empty bloom
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I thought it was more about Halsey wanting revenge?

empty bloom
orchid kettle
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in contrast to her sounding sniveling and evil in the beginning of the scene

empty bloom
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Seriously, so much of 4 is creative license

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It's been stated for literal years

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Like

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Going on a decade

versed helm
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Didnā€™t they try to justify some of the things they changed later on?

empty bloom
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No, they did that early on.

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Armor nanites, for example, was confirmed at a panel, it wasn't even in a book for a hot minute.

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As the years went on they stopped doing it.

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I think part of it was the mistaken assumption Halo fans would be adults about things and go 'oh it's an artistic license change' like they did for Reach

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Conveniently forgetting that people were begging for the 'lore reasons' of why Chief's glove backplates changed back in 2-3

runic wharf
orchid kettle
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he took a bite of each and turned the squares into triangles

empty bloom
empty bloom
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"Why did his armor change!!!??!?!?!?!" has been a thing in Halo since Halo has had sequels.

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4 was merely the most aggressive of the changes.

hot zodiac
empty bloom
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Yes, it was. Don't listen to TNS22.

versed helm
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Iā€™m pretty sure any thing thatā€™s had a big art style change has fallen victim to this

hot zodiac
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No it wasn't. Don't listen to Trenchbird,

orchid kettle
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There's a line in Halo 3 where a Grunt notices the different hand plates

hot zodiac
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This is like how people today claim Halo 2 had a huge negative reception because of halo2sucks.com

orchid kettle
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But I dunno if that was ever really a thing and not just like, Bungie poking fun at themselves

empty bloom
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Halo fans really love trying to gaslight other Halo fans into thinking some complaints aren't older than the dirt under my fingernails.

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"What, nah they never complained about thing that has been complained about for so long that the complaint is effectively a subfandom"

versed helm
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Halo 3 glove subfandom

hot zodiac
empty bloom
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Well, yeah, just look at the youtube community post-5.

orchid kettle
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i am trying to use the power of google to try and find any talk about the hand plate in 2007-2010

empty bloom
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Google's wayback sucks.

hot zodiac
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If I have any bone to pick, it's the constant misinformation and gaslighting used by the modern lore community.

orchid kettle
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i dunno, the glove thing honestly sounds like a meme

empty bloom
hot zodiac
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I have to constnatly reiterate the same points all the time.

orchid kettle
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rather than like an actual burning complaint

empty bloom
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But it is something people complained about.

orchid kettle
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i mean

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in a fanbase of millions of players

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im sure you could find anybody complaining about anything

empty bloom
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Well, yeah.

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Was that not already a known quality of quantity?

hot zodiac
empty bloom
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People were begging for lore reasons of it. I'm not sure where you're getting me insisting it was a top burning question from.

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It's not even hyperbole, it was a question people actively had.

hot zodiac
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Y'know what. Pick my battles.

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It wasn't a huge complaint.

empty bloom
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Wow, cool, it's almost as though I didn't say it was.

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It's also a lot damn harder to FIND IT WHEN THE BNET FORUMS GOT TURNED TO DUST

orchid kettle
empty bloom
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And google's freaking date checking system being awful.

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Seriously

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I'm timestamping this stuff to before 2008

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And it's showing more results regarding Halo 4 costumes than actual things involving Halo pre 2008.

orchid kettle
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wouldnt it be nice if the people in charge of halo would stop nuking their halo forums

empty bloom
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IT WOULD.

orchid kettle
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its time to reject discord

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return to forums

empty bloom
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I remember distinctly getting in an argument about the gloves on the BNet back in '11 because I was a terrible kid who wasted time on Bnet until someone spammed my DMs with hardcore gore links.

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Because I've always gotten into stupid arguments about pointless armor minutae.

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Well, I found some guy's concept render for Chief made in June of 2007. That's kinda cool. Looks like the guy got way better.

hot zodiac
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Y'know If theres one thing that truly hasn't changed, it's that the majority of Halo fans only care about multiplayer playlists or something.

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Or whatever latest weapon balance

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I miss the bnet stats stuff.

empty bloom
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Lmao

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Holy crap

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People were complaining about the guns in 2004

hot zodiac
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I think people have forgotten a notable Bungie employee got hired because they wrote a piece about complaints with Halo 2 multiplayer

meager pier
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Man, I remember the Bnet days of looking for people to play Firefight with

runic wharf
hot zodiac
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Kinda wierd but Halo 2 shut down that year

empty bloom
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I hate Google so damn much.

empty bloom
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Not saying I don't believe you because the website says it

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But holy crap, Google

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Get your act together

hot zodiac
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If I were to describe the story and characters Iā€™d say once again thereā€™s no weight. No weight to the characters and no dramatic weight
safe to say this guy wasn't the majority

empty bloom
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Eh.

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Review's a review. Nowadays I'd say he's absolutely right.

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Relative to what they had back then, it's not that bad.

hot zodiac
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safe to say you aren't in the majority

empty bloom
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Safe to say I don't give a damn about what the majority thinks.

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I don't gargle the spittle of the gantry, sorry. Not my idea of a good mixed drink.

hot zodiac
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That certainly sounds disgusting

empty bloom
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Which is why appealing to popularity disgusts me.

hot zodiac
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kickinthehead wrote this review on August 11, 2010.
0 out of 0 Giant Bomb users found it helpful.
lmao

feral perch
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I heard that Masterz1337 made Halo SPV3 because he was dissastisfied with Halo 2 and 3.

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or something like that

empty bloom
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And then he proceeded to make a lot of the same mistakes.

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Brilliant move.

feral perch
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fun

hot zodiac
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Yeah he really hates those games

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Can confirm

empty bloom
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Never thought I'd see the day where I'd agree with anything that guy had to say.

runic wharf
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Everyone has an opinion

empty bloom
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I'm disgusted. Not enough to change my opinion, but disgusted.

feral perch
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Halo: CE is great, Halo 2 has a way better story but its gameplay is only superior in the Arbiter levels imo

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Halo 3 can be fun.

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ODST is the pinnacle of gaming

hot zodiac
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Don't hide yourself ODST is great

empty bloom
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ODST's my favorite Bungie game, so I get it.

feral perch
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so who here loves Gravemind (the level) and who does not?

empty bloom
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It's Halo 2 and relies on a gimmicky boss fight that is frankly unfun to deal with considering Halo 2's spotty AI.

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So I hate it.

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Oh, wait

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No I'm confusing it with the last level

hot zodiac
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The first part for sure at least

feral perch
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I think the sandbox works really well. I don't really notice the lack of human weapons because of the variety of effective Covie guns.

empty bloom
feral perch
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But yeah Legendary in the spawning room is uh

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hard

empty bloom
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Funny enough, I almost never had an issue with that part.

feral perch
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okay mr. mlg

empty bloom
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šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

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I'm really good at gaming AI. It's simple.

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It's why I like Darktide so much.

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That first burst is absolutely bull, though. I get why people make fun of it.

feral perch
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hm

hot zodiac
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Spawning you with no cover and just a puny needler was decidedly a bad idea

empty bloom
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yeah, you basically need to go as far away as possible as quickly as possible in the shortest distance possible, and that's a pain.

feral perch
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My issue isn't with the first burst, since you just need to know that it's coming and backpedal. And after two or three respawns, you'll know.

empty bloom
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People forget?

feral perch
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My problem is with the carbine brutes that spawn on both of the councilor seating things

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Anyway I replayed the Broadsword sequence on Midnight recently, and I had a lot of fun. I think it's probably the most exhilarating sequence in all of 343i's games.

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Pairing it with 117 makes it a peak experience

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Running down the Guardian in Genesis is pretty cool too.

meager pier
empty bloom
feral perch
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The booster frames are dumb but cool

meager pier
empty bloom
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Sigh.

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Man, Infinite's concept art bums me out.

hot zodiac
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Booster Frames probably won't ever make it into a game unless it has the same style as The Package

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Which is an intersting proposition

feral perch
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I would like to eventually get Banished Skiffs.

runic wharf
empty bloom
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And I hate saying that, because I know people worked hard on this game.

orchid kettle
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if we ever get another space mission ala the Sabre or Broadsword sections, I hope its on a Booster Frame

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it basically has everything those fighters did, in terms of gameplay. Its got shields, autocannons, and missiles.

runic wharf
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Iā€™d love thatā€¦

empty bloom
meager pier
modest compass
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I've been wondering, are the heights for Noble Team in, or out of armor? We know their weights are out of armor, but are their heights, too?

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We don't really have numbers for how big a CAT-II is, besides them. Owen is 6'8" without armor, but I don't know if he's a Cat-II

feral perch
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CAT-II is a myth

orchid kettle
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no its the long awaited sequel to šŸ±

orchid kettle
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chief for example in the encyclopedia is listed as 7'2", which is his armor height and not his real height

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but the encyclopedia doesn't tell you that

meager pier
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Epitaph is a little over 2 months away, hoping we get a sample chapter in the coming weeks

stoic hamlet
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And then maybe another Spartan Chatter, I faintly recall Haruspis/the lore team wanted to do more of those,

meager pier
feral perch
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WAIT WHAT

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THE DIDACT'S VOICE ACTOR IS NARRATING IT?

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KEITH I CAN'T SPELL HIS LAST NAME?

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that's pretty cool

manic furnace
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can somone please help me name my elite?

tribal trench
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what region of Sanghelios are they from

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or if they arenā€™t from Sanghelios, what moon/colony

manic furnace
tribal trench
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thatā€™s fine

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is he aligned with the Swords of Sanghelios or some other faction?

manic furnace
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which one does that guy in halo inf with the blood blade come from

tribal trench
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good question, let me check Halopedia

dusk jetty
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Thatā€™s Jega Rdomni, he was aligned with the silent shadow, and comes from Sanghelios

manic furnace
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thanks

tribal trench
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I donā€™t believe his home region is known

dusk jetty
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Halopedia just says sanghelios

tribal trench
dusk jetty
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Yes, most elites have funny punctuation

manic furnace
tribal trench
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Err-Dom-Nye

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like Bill Nye

dusk jetty
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I say it like err-dom-nye

manic furnace
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can one of you join a call so i can hear im confused

tribal trench
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no, sorry

manic furnace
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oh wait i can use google translate!!!

boreal bane
tribal trench
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Panda already did that one

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sorry stckr

boreal bane
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Aww crap

manic furnace
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yo like R-dom-ni?

tribal trench
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sure

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it doesnā€™t really matter much

manic furnace
dusk jetty
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Red, mostly

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Crimson

manic furnace
dusk jetty
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The leader has a blue visor, but the entire body is just red for the normal warriors

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Asides from the black patches where the undersuit shows

manic furnace
dusk jetty
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Silent shadow helmets are some of the best elite helmets, itā€™s a shame they never really show up in a game as a customization option

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The closest would probably be field marshal helmet in reach iirc if halo 3 has any ones that are close

tribal trench
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See: Roland and Jonah, in the Headhunters comic

dusk jetty
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Atriox only survived because they betrayed the one dude who actually wanted to kill him

manic furnace
dusk jetty
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Send it again

manic furnace
dusk jetty
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I turned on DMā€™s just for this once, since your in the same server it should let you now

runic wharf
plush compass
unique rune
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He was part of that Silent Shadow unit but itā€™s not specified what his role was

feral perch
tribal trench
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John (and most plot-centric spartans) are an outlier and should not be counted

empty bloom
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They are the Spiders Jeorge of Halo.

tribal trench
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exactly what i was gonna say

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the spider jorge one might even say

stoic hamlet
# tribal trench See: Roland and Jonah, in the Headhunters comic

Ehhhh, they only lost because they werenā€™t expecting them to be there, but as Jonah notes the Silent Shadow being there is technically a win for the Headhunters by proxy.

Itā€™s like assigning Navy SEALS to guard a random dig site in the hopes it gets chosen as a target.

Even if the site is targeted, the SEALS could have spent months just sitting there essentially doing nothing. To say nothing of the other forces that would need to be committed to the ruse.

tribal trench
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a win by ambush is still a win

stoic hamlet
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Individually, sure.

tribal trench
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also thatā€™s likeā€¦ half of the Sangheiliā€™s schtick

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thatā€™s why active camo exists

stoic hamlet
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But overall the operation was a Covenant loss.

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An entire team of your best special forces plus a dig site of conventional forces (and who knows how many the other Headhunter team killed) for only 4 people isnā€™t a great prize.

tribal trench
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it was aā€¦ pyrrhic victory

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on both sides

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i think

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thanks autocorrect for adding that emoji in place of an entire word

stoic hamlet
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It depends, really.

If the UNSC went through with phase 2 of the operation or not.

The Headhunters were phase 1.

Phase 2 was (as mentioned in the short story) a larger strike by ā€œmultiple Spartan III teamsā€, either the regular Beta Company, or the specialist teams like Noble, Gauntlet, Echo, Strident, etc

tribal trench
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I think losing 2 spartans is still a pretty major hit however you look at it

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especially two headhunters

stoic hamlet
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Yes and no. On an operation like that, itā€™s exactly what was intended.

The IIIā€™s werenā€™t sent out to die, but their losses were deemed acceptable if they could complete the missions.

Considering their mission was ā€œsoften up the area for the larger assaultā€ Iā€™d say they succeeded.

They certain accomplished more than some other examples we have, like Solomon and Arthur, lol

ruby canopy
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I thought cat-IIs and headhunters were deemed more valuable than the standard SIII

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Maybe not quite like losing a SII, but close enough

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Well, certainly cat-IIs, but I thought headhunters were held in the same regard

stoic hamlet
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Theyā€™re the same thing.

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ā€œCat-IIā€™sā€ (not a term thatā€™s been used any time except once, for the record) are in modern lore the same rough idea.

Essentially theyā€™re all part of a large pool, and individuals or specific members are slotted into teams or pulled for Headhunter duties as needed by operational directives

For example Jun was originally a Headhunter then assigned to Noble.

While Rosenda was originally assigned to Noble before being redeployed as a Headhunter, etc.

orchid kettle
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CAT-II is just an effective term for when we wanna talk about Noble-type S-IIIs

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Though what I find interesting is how in the Headhunters short story, they're written as if they're wearing MJOLNIR and not SPI

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Since we have mentions of shields and prototype active camo in place of the photoreactive panels used by SPI

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And only Roland has the active camo module, while Jonah strangely never engages his own stealth system that surely would have been standard for his armor

stoic hamlet
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Yeah, though all the art has them in SPI.

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Itā€™s certainly odd.

orchid kettle
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I wonder if the writer wrote it as mjolnir in an earlier draft

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and was corrected later

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Because I think it is called SPI

stoic hamlet
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Itā€™s certainly possible.

orchid kettle
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it just doesn't seem to function like it

stoic hamlet
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I canā€™t check atm.

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Theyā€™ve since kind of explained it as them testing Prototype stuff.

orchid kettle
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yeah, I just find it funny because if Headhunters and Noble-types are one in the same

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you might as well let Jonah and Roland rock MJOLNIR

stoic hamlet
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Considering the mission, SPI would have been better, but yeah.

orchid kettle
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but I guess instead they chose to make Super SPI

stoic hamlet
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We know MJOLNIR can use the PR panels/Coating, as Owen uses it in Meridian Divide.

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Though it obviously wouldnā€™t affect the reactor.

stoic hamlet
versed helm
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So the covenant were on the Pillar of Autumn in the Maw to stop the flood from repairing it right?

empty bloom
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They were using it as an ad-hoc command post.

versed helm
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Huh, I wondered why they had such a big prescence

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They didnā€™t try to leave as the flood got out of hand? From in game they seemed to be focusing on fighting rather than running, until the reactor was messed up

empty bloom
versed helm
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Fair

sonic lagoon
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Did the Halo universe have any non-government criminals?

empty bloom
carmine sleet
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The idea that there's no criminals not working for the government is... Odd

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Like, yes, you're gonna have corrupt politicians, government agents and police, which we plenty of examples of through the Halo franchise

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But that doesn't mean there aren't other people committing crimes

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It's just a case that for the most part, the series isn't about serial killers or bank robbers

dusty ferry
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yeah, this is a military (in a loose sense) sci fi story

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having bank robbers would be weird

last anchor
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Kind happened in Dirt didn't it? Kinda sorta

obsidian kiln
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Does anyone know, what Grunt's "nipple" mean?

orchid kettle
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Rion claims her and her group are okay because they don't really mess with big time stuff like nukes, but it kinda doesn't change the fact that she's selling weapons to Covenant Remnant factions who may in turn be using them against the UNSC

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Like, we hear that she sold a crate of Concussion Rifles to some Elites once

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and she herself wonders what her father would think of her being on the "wrong side of the law"

wise snow
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So I have some knowledge of the forerunners and the like ancient humans in space, but Iā€™m just not sure how exactly the floods forms and fits into all of it

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Iā€™ve googled it and watched some videos but Iā€™ve got conflicting answers

ruby canopy
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They did it as revenge against the forerunners for destroying their race

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Itā€™s not entirely clear if there are any precursors left that havenā€™t been corrupted

wise snow
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Ah I see

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Thank you

carmine sleet
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Outcasts features what we assume is the voice of one given they visit a Precursor location in that novel

empty bloom
orchid kettle
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still wish Nightfall featured a Locke who hadnt gone all goodie two shoes yet

dusk jetty
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Not a literal nipple

orchid kettle
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a giant hamster bottle but for nutritious slop instead of water

sonic lagoon
#

You can use a Luke Cage Heroclix to go with Halo Actionclix.

stoic hamlet
plush compass
empty bloom
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Why the hell is there a model of it in Reach?

stoic hamlet
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Itā€™s a mod, IIRC.

sonic lagoon
#

Do insane asylums exist in halo?

ruby canopy
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I imagine they do. I donā€™t think itā€™s been mentioned though

versed helm
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So that big Fleet of Prophets that left HC when it fell, was it only prophets or did they bring any of the other covenant races with them? Or do we just not know?

meager pier
feral drift
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Lore

stoic hamlet
versed helm
feral perch
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Probably Huragok too

fair hazel
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It's so good looking

sonic lagoon
#

What types of MREs existed in Halo? I love Jelly on MRE crackers.

last anchor
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About the same as what we have nowadays

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Though pizza tacos do exist

tawny fox
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They beefed up security after the first time they did it. Hence why there are crap ton of spec ops troops

sonic lagoon
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What would happen if a Sarlacc Pit ate a flood infection form?

last anchor
#

Sarlaccs arent sentient so...really big Flood blister.

grizzled lotus
versed helm
grizzled lotus
#

I guess

grizzled lotus
#

it would move like a really slow version of the dune worm

carmine sleet
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So I have a question, is there a lore reason for why the Regulator Sentinels use Brute shock rifles in Infinite's campaign?

grizzled lotus
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no clue I thought they were just picking them off dead brutes

carmine sleet
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Well that's the thing, it doesn't really make sense for Sentinels to do that

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My guess is that they were meant to have a weapon they uniquely carry but it got cut from Infinite from release

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So I am curious if they came up with a lore reason

orchid kettle
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yeah there's a forerunner pistol that's decently along but ultimately got cut

carmine sleet
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Aye, I was guessing it would've been that thing

empty bloom
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Absolutely wild that it got far enough to get sold as a toy and still got axed.

carmine sleet
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Likely just a case of the toy manufacturer had already been given the reference material and made it by the weapon got cut

versed helm
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So how much do we know about the various species pre-halo? Excluding Humans and Forerunners

empty bloom
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Brutes were apparently wookie knockoffs.

versed helm
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I saw that, I remember reading some waypoint blurbs and one has a phrase that makes it seem as if the elites had some significance

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The didact specifically calls them loyal and such, ā€œeven in their second formā€

untold wasp
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any halo book recommendations? also is the encyclopedia worth it? (ping me)

last anchor
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Get the Encyclopedia when your most of the way through the books

tawny fox
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Their halo 2 designs definitely looked very reminiscent of wookies

untold wasp
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FoR and First strike seem like good ones too i guess

last anchor
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Hunters is good but you want to read a few other books first

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And yeah the 2022 encyclopedia is indispensable

untold wasp
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also btw i have GoO, Rubicon protocol, bad blood and Shadows of reach

last anchor
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So all the newer ones

untold wasp
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rubicon and Ghosts are tied for my fav

last anchor
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Yeah you want to go backwards then

untold wasp
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except Ghosts of onyx

runic wharf
untold wasp
stoic hamlet
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Haloā€™s best read in release order.

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Oh, what, discord, whyā€™d you not load.. anything.

untold wasp
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lmao

versed helm
unique rune
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He refers to them as just ā€œbeastsā€, yeah.

gilded mason
unique rune
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That mightā€™ve been it

runic wharf
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Both yā€™all are correct

pallid knoll
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is the Mark VI in Halo 2 canonically a different set of armor from the one in Halo 3?

gilded mason
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No

pallid knoll
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ok

gusty star
gilded mason
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So it was re-canonized

gusty star
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Where can I find that?

gilded mason
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I'll check real quick

gilded mason
versed helm
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Yeah that one

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I assume heā€™s just speaking of them pre-firing

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It implies atleast some familiarity

gusty star
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Thereā€™s definitely more going on with them

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The pre-firing Sangheili

versed helm
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I hope if they ever reveal another species to have been super important pre-firing itā€™s like the Grunts or something lmao

steel stone
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I dont know why but I wanna see those early Halo 1 beta Elites as a new species I think are nicely detailed and cool looking

unique rune
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The Macworld '99 Elites were used as the basis for Ussa 'Xellus' armor in the '22 Encyclopedia so I doubt they'll ever do that

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Even if they hadn't I imagine they'd have been repurposed as some kind of Sangheili ancestor species instead of a whole separate thing.

sonic lagoon
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Ussa ā€˜Xellus is such a Chad.

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My favorite Halo novel. Listening to it felt like playing Halo 2 for first time all over again.

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By the way, what religion does the Covenant most closely resemble in leadership structure? Does it resemble any Abrahamic religions or more akin to Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, etc? Broad terms of course, each religion and denomination have their own identities and moral values. My mind does go to certain Christian denominations, such as Chalcedonian Christianity in relation to the real world Hierarch Bishops from the late 300s. Iā€™m curious to see if anyone finds the covenant more akin to the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Churches.

ruby canopy
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I would say probably closer to Abrahamic, because in no way does it seem to resemble Hinduism, Shinto, or Buddhism

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Maybe paganism, but Iā€™m not too familiar with that

inland gull
#

Is the Cortana from halo 4 the same as the one in halo 5? I donā€™t understand why she would be acting so much differently if she was cured by the domain

versed helm
unique rune
#

She wasnā€™t ā€œcuredā€ so much as the progression of her rampancy was put on hold

empty bloom
empty bloom
# inland gull Is the Cortana from halo 4 the same as the one in halo 5? I donā€™t understand why...

Cortana's position as of 5 catapulted her from the assistant AI of a top-tier supersoldier, to the position of the heir-apparent to the stewardship of the largest information repository of all time as well as the heir-apparent to the bulk of the connected and operating former Forerunner's AI-driven martial fleet. Cortana is born from Halsey, and Halsey's entire method of thought is ends justifying the means; Cortana, in her newfound position, similarly believed this.

#

So given this effectively uber-powerful force and knowledge base, she decided to attempt to enforce the mantle of responsibility to the letter, effectively trying to enforce a peace-through-superior-firepower over the space she knew she could control.

#

Her responses to Osiris team are markedly different from Blue Team because Cortana also hated the IVs, and did even in Halo 4.

versed helm
#

Wasnā€™t that originally gonna be the plot of CE?

#

Cortanaā€™d go crazy after absorbing the forerunner knowledge?

empty bloom
versed helm
#

I assume in retrospect thatā€™s why the mission ā€œtwo betrayalsā€ is called that

empty bloom
versed helm
#

Iā€™ve been replaying ODST and it hit me, why was the NMPD so militarized?

#

You see them with basically every weapon the marines get

#

The funniest example I can think of upon glancing at the wiki is the dubiously canon mech they apparently have

unique rune
#

TBF have you seen some of the stuff that cops in the US are working with

#

The internal police force at the college I go to has an MRAP for some reason

meager pier
versed helm
#

Yeah that was it

carmine sleet
empty bloom
#

That's actually not that weird. Police forces in pretty much every modern country typically have standard infantry arms equivalent to the primary military force in their country, touting SMGs, Battle Rifles, Carbines, and even Grenade Launchers.

#

Hell, the M90 is the most common weapon you see cops use in ODST, and that gun is straight up sold on the civilian and private market as well as police forces and military, under the DTM umbrella.

#

The weirdest thing the NMPD own is actually their Pelican, which is a little overkill for what they're using it for.

daring pike
#

Hey I have a question on the chief Locke fight. Why do nether or them have any energy shields on? Was there an emp that killed the shields before the fight?

old prairie
#

I donā€™t even consider it canon xD

wanton notch
old prairie
#

Yeah we donā€™t talk about it šŸ’€

#

I just bought it a few weeks ago. I played the first mission and died of cringe

daring pike
#

Ah ok

wanton notch
#

I only liked PvE Warzone

wanton notch
# daring pike Ah ok

Honestly I'm not sure. I would think they deactivate shields out of respect but there's no canon explanation I can recall

daring pike
#

I donā€™t think respect would go into it. Both know that this ends there so it would make sense for both to go all out

wanton notch
#

It makes less sense the more you think about it

carmine sleet
carmine sleet
old prairie
empty bloom
orchid kettle
empty bloom
#

Still wish we got more about how Cortana's uprising changed the galactic political situation. More interesting than the HCW, tbh.

#

"One side versus the other" is way more lame than "Yeah everyone balkanized"

empty bloom
# daring pike I donā€™t think respect would go into it. Both know that this ends there so it wou...

Spartans don't really do respecting your opponent most of the time, because by nature they're extremely pragmatic. Realistically speaking, neither side would really even be punching much-trying to apprehend someone is more of a grappling/wrestling fight. Considering how relatively fluid most of the animations for Spartans are in 5, I think that was strongly a consequence of wanting to do mocap as much as possible.

orchid kettle
#

but after twenty years, I feel like the series has said everything it can say on the conflict

empty bloom
#

I think a wider spread of factions vying for political significance is a fitting endcap for the HCW, especially considering what the Covenant was.

empty bloom
empty bloom
#

It always did strike me as a little funny that Halo has absolutely zero conventional helicopter style VTOLs.

#

It's all tiltrotors and turbofans.

orchid kettle
#

they love their vtols

#

even as far back as CE with the cut Kestrel vehicle

empty bloom
#

Well, they love their tiltrotor and jet vtols at any rate

#

Then again, I think Battletech's really the only franchise I can think of that takes place in the far future yet still uses conventional helicopters in the majority of conflict.

#

Most sci fi franchises, like Halo, seem to prefer going with more '''unique''' methods of movement, like tiltrotors.

old prairie
#

Why was I pinged

old prairie
sonic lagoon
#

Well certain police forces, especially those in the US, are highly militarized.

versed helm
#

Iā€™m surprised they didnā€™t have a tank honestly

empty bloom
#

People got bent out of shape by Liang Dortmund having one.

#

Frankly, I always thought it made perfect sense. They aren't technically supposed to without a UNSC garrison, but the frontier's not exactly a safe place.

#

I hope we see more corporate powers in Halo, tbh. I like the random hints at corporate shadow wars and such.

carmine sleet
#

It's pretty clear it was obtained via not so legal means too. I can buy that happening in places where laws are much harder to enforce like glassed colony worlds

empty bloom
#

The shipment from Bozo audio log kinda indicates they have more than they should, but nobody is surprised it's there at all, just that it was unlikely, so it might be legal, might not.

#

If nothing else, it implies it is not unusual for Corporate security to have tanks, just unusual for most ops to have one.

carmine sleet
#

Fair. It has been some time since I properly played through Halo 5

empty bloom
#

There's a lot of easy to miss dialogue notes that really enriches the world, to the point that I'd vehemently argue tooth and nail that it has the most involved side dialogue in the entire franchise.

versed helm
#

Also every Prophet weā€™ve seen is super old right? I remember seeing somewhere that apparently before that they look a bit more like humans?

orchid kettle
#

The San Shyuum seem to have long lifespans, yeah

#

When Truth died he was 156 years old, but nobody ever really talks about him being exceptionally elderly or anything

#

compared to Mercy who was 220

carmine sleet
orchid kettle
orchid kettle
carmine sleet
#

That would've also been nice

#

I wanna explore Sanghelios as Vale and hear her being a nerd about the Sangheili culture

orchid kettle
#

im guessing its because there's just no voice lines for other characters giving commands

#

but like, Id be fine if its still Chief or Locke saying the lines

empty bloom
#

Like, on Sanghelios, two Elites are trying to figure out how to fix a Banshee.

#

Locke, Vale, and Buck all give the wrong answers or things the elites already tried

#

Tanaka's just like 'yeah y'all are pulling the wrong thing, do this instead'

#

And is right

#

Annoyingly, it's also the most engineering work she does the entire game.

carmine sleet
#

Aye, I know of that one. Shame it's the only time

wanton notch
carmine sleet
#

???

empty bloom
carmine sleet
wanton notch
empty bloom
#

No.

wanton notch
#

Also isn't your pronoun literally "degen birdman "

empty bloom
#

ĀÆ_(惄)_/ĀÆ

wanton notch
empty bloom
#

Mature enough to not be one in public over inane things.

wanton notch
#

In public
It's discord my guy

#

Also I didn't say anything, you're the one who spoke for me

#

Read the rules and try to be more respectful next time helmet

runic wharf
wanton notch
#

Sangheili culture is interesting and 5 is as close to it as we got sadly

runic wharf
#

Sangheili culture is woefully unexplored, despite being just at the crossroads of feudalism and capitalism

#

Seeing how feudal traditions and society could survive if you ā€˜forerunner techā€™ your way past its issues is awesome

empty bloom
runic wharf
#

just, rarely touched on

empty bloom
#

News at 11

empty bloom
#

This included the political machinations that led to the role of Arbiter being one of punishment and not merit.

carmine sleet
#

I want to see more of the cooperation between the SoS and UNSC in media so bad. Show me more 343i!!

empty bloom
#

I don't particularly care for the SoS essentially being 'squeaky clean' as far as postwar ex-Covenant factions go.

wanton notch
#

I just wanna see some sweet Arby & Chief action

empty bloom
#

Granted, Rtas just pissed off after pissing off ONI, so.

#

Ah, yes, the greatest friendship of literally one word.

runic wharf
empty bloom
#

Honestly, I'm more confused about how their society progressed without something as basic as medicine.

runic wharf
#

catapulting to the space age w/ what would be their ā€˜enlightenmentā€™ and enabling cultural regression with cross-planetary feudalism isā€¦ Odd

runic wharf
empty bloom
#

I mean, they had medicine, but they didn't have medicine, culturally speaking.

#

Like

#

You don't just heal a compound fracture or severed mandible with antibiotics.

carmine sleet
empty bloom
#

That would make sense.

runic wharf
empty bloom
#

That's... Really dumb.

runic wharf
#

Prior is so vague we canā€™t lay an official guideline

empty bloom
#

Your social justification for needing medicine is being an organism that can get sick and injured.

#

Granted, apparently the life expectancy for the average Sangheili male was 27 before the Covenant, so.

empty bloom
# empty bloom That would make sense.

After all, all the Sangheili's 'bad habits' were exacerbated by the Covenant, so maybe that would also go a long way to explaining the problem of combat related medical care becoming even more 'underground' for minor issues.

#

Apparently they did utilize cybernetics at points, such as mandibles or eyes.

#

(The eye in particular being pre-Jega)

runic wharf
#

Let me rephrase; Human society had medicine as being something derived from all-encompassing positions to a professional field with the industrialization of society; Sangheili had disease taken care of with nanotechnology (vis a vis Broken Circle), had mangling taken care of through automated surgery suites or amputation/prostheses or suicide, and they lacked the more ā€˜basicā€™ social uses of doctors that one had in human times (taking care of hair + teeth)

empty bloom
#

Ahhhhh.

#

That makes more sense.

runic wharf
#

Everything that one could ā€˜needā€™ medicine for is covered in one way or another, so why have someone specialize in it (Outside of surgeons like the one mentioned in Thelā€™s memories as being a discreet method for high class lineages to persist)

empty bloom
#

I do like the medics present in Halo 5.

runic wharf
#

Oh, hell yes
Their refusal to be cowed by the foolish preconceptions of history is just

#

phenomenal

wanton notch
#

From an audio log in Halo 5:

Sangheili Medic Cham 'Lokeema discusses his social status - 00:34

"To spill blood outside of battle is a great dishonor. Words burned into all Sangheili since they were young, and to me. And for a time, I believed. I watched my brothers die around me and never dared give aid. 'Stitching a wound closed brings dishonor, setting a broken bone brings dishonor.' Words of the ignorant who never saw undetonated Needler rounds pulsing beneath a brother's skin. If shame is the price of compassion, so be it."

#

I suppose it's culturally frowned upon to heal a wound. ie: why we see Rtas never get prosthetic mandibles, but Jega did

versed helm
runic wharf
#

Really small detail, but yes

versed helm
#

Sounds cool, whatā€™s it mentioned in?

#

It does explain how theyā€™d get past the whole blood spilling thing if you can just inject some nano machines to do all that

runic wharf
#

Broken Circle, and I have a screenshot of exactly where somewhere in my thousands of images on my phone

#

Iā€™ll poke at the book/halopedia some time in the future

versed helm
#

Iā€™ve been scouring halopedia to look for interesting tidbits, seems I missed that part

#

Also Iā€™ve been trying to map something out, figured Iā€™d ask here
So the current lore for the human-forerunner thing is:
Unknown precursor ā€œbaseā€ that evolves into forerunners and the myriad of pre-devolution human ancestor species, right?

sonic lagoon
unique rune
versed helm
#

Makes me wonder what the deal is with Gorillas and Monkeys, the non human primates. I assume theyā€™re just unrelated in Halo or something

ruby canopy
#

It could be seen that humans were meant to be through the numerous trials and tribulations of evolution

#

Or however you philosophically see evolution

#

Doesnā€™t have to be trials and tribulations

versed helm
#

Its just from the wording Iā€™ve seen, the idea that seems to be presented is some humanoid, though not human species was ā€œseparatedā€ and became humans and forerunners, and thereā€™s no information on said ancestor, and itā€™s just kinda confusing when you take into account stuff like that

#

You could probably just handwave whatever with ā€œprecursors did itā€ honestly

ruby canopy
#

Oh ok. Yeah, that is a bit hard to explain how that came to be

#

Precursor magic is best

versed helm
#

Itā€™s been flip flopped throughout the franchise afaik

#

And now itā€™s just a confusing topic

orchid kettle
#

like, the implication is that humans and forerunners diverged 15 million years ago

#

because that's when forerunners appeared

#

But that amount of time is so huge, it kinda ends up meaning our relation with them is meaningless

#

like, we split from chimps 4-6 million years ago

versed helm
#

Itā€™s a weird addition tbh

versed helm
#

Itā€™s an interesting topic if only for how seemingly convoluted itā€™s getting

orchid kettle
#

Halo's fossil record is just kinda messed up beyond repair

#

Recall that Ancient Humans were supposed to be Gigachad, Spartan versions of us

#

and they were merely devolved into modern humans as punishment for the war

#

but uh, if thats the case

#

why is there no fossil evidence of ancient humans, or even the ancient homo sapien sapien that proceeded them

versed helm
#

Again werenā€™t the ancient humans multiple different human species in a single society?

#

Itā€™s just, really confusing right now

orchid kettle
#

somehow in the 9000 years after their punishment

#

brand new subspecies spouted up

versed helm
#

Like how forerunners presumably wiped everything ancient human related out, except a random starship

orchid kettle
#

which isnt how subspecies work but whatever

#

We of course in the real world also have fossil evidence of humans evolving on Earth

#

we share 90% of our DNA with dolphins

#

but somehow, the Forerunners werent even sure that Earth was our home planet

versed helm
#

Uhā€¦

#

Precursors did it

orchid kettle
#

yeah this is kinda why some fans arent too big on 343's lore for all the ancient, pre-Halo firing stuff

versed helm
#

I think itā€™d work better if they didnā€™t try to randomly relate humans and forerunners after saying they were seprarate

orchid kettle
#

its just not compatible with the idea that Halo is otherwise our history until we start making scifi space ships

#

because fossils surely exist in the Halo universe

#

they know what dinosaurs are

versed helm
#

Cause like you said, the stated relation is so distant itā€™s basically irrelevant

orchid kettle
#

that like, they guided existing earth life into their shape

#

God created Man in his own image, and all that

versed helm
#

Iā€™ve seen the idea they were just humans that got uplifted as well

orchid kettle
#

and that would explain why we have evidence of humans evolving on Earth, but humans can still be "forerunners" in a way

versed helm
#

But now itā€™s ā€œtheyā€™re separate, but also relatedā€

orchid kettle
#

And also why the Luminary recognizes us

#

Because the Luminary very specifically detects Forerunner artifacts

versed helm
#

I assume it was done to try to tie into the old humans are forerunners idea?

orchid kettle
#

but as you said, the relation is so distant its meaningless

versed helm
#

And confusing

orchid kettle
#

chimps by all rights would have the same amount of forerunner blood as we do

#

and basically any other primate on earth

versed helm
#

Unless itā€™s supposed to be like, humans specifically are not related and noones noticed or itā€™s been hidden by Ancient precursor dna magic

orchid kettle
#

And thats by having the Forerunners be a group of early humans that got snatched up by the Precursors

#

and that terminal where the Librarian is geeking out about finding humans on Earth

#

is just her finally finding her home planet after all these years

#

and thats why she feels a special kinship with the world

versed helm
#

Iā€™m wondering if theyā€™re gonna further try to explain/elaborate the weird connection or if theyā€™re just gonna leave it as is

orchid kettle
#

other than because she just recognizes on a spiritual level that we're the true protagonists

versed helm
#

Something about Geasā€™s

#

That might actually be an explanation at some point

#

Huh

#

Overall I guess itā€™s just not supposed to be something you think that hard about

#

Otherwise things start to look a little wonky

orchid kettle
#

maybe, but we know that the whole spiel about ancient humans being a rival empire was something largely invented by 343

#

and has no basis in the terminals

#

so who knows if that explanation (which apparently was only ever the writer's head canon, and they were only one of four) still works

versed helm
#

And also the Prophets, who were oddly also important

#

I do like the irony of them being allies in the past though

orchid kettle
#

because then Forerunner is a type of human

#

so its still kinda wrong to call Chief a Forerunner

#

all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs

versed helm
#

Iā€™m curious how much of the debate has involved 343 GSā€™s quotes

#

Itā€™s gotta be a pretty large part

#

I assume the best explanation is just ā€œHeā€™s old and maybe rampant so heā€™s making mistakesā€

orchid kettle
#

If I was calling the shots, I'd probably keep the idea of Forerunners being humans snatched up by the Precursors and given power over the galaxy

#

have them be corrupted by power and whatnot, make them imperialistic a-holes that deserved to get Flooded

#

but add in the caveat that the few that survived returned to Earth, gave up their technology like Bornstellar did, and assimilated with the "primitive" population still living there

#

and then after 100,000 years, everybody has a bit of forerunner blood

#

it'd also answer that question posed in Ghosts of Onyx

#

where the characters reason that the pocket dimension at Onyx's core was meant to protect the Forerunners from Halo like a sort of bomb shelter

#

but that of course begs the question of why there's no Forerunners inside

#

and hey, the answer can be that instead of returning to their empire after firing the rings from the Ark, they just went to Earth and allowed their civilization to end

#

To make way for the next generation

#

Im also a big fan of the idea that Guilty Spark isnt actually crazy in CE

#

And him saying "But you knew that? I mean, how couldn't you?"

#

means that something went wrong with the Forerunner's plan

#

perhaps implying at some point, the plan was to go back to Earth, rule over the primitive humans as god-kings, and return to reclaim their empire

#

but for whatever reason, the ones that actually went to Earth were more humble, and allowed themselves to be assimilated and forgotton

#

beyond perhaps like, basic stories about a "great Flood" and an Ark

dusk jetty
#

After all they only had the lesser ark left

orchid kettle
#

In any case, I think the idea was that modern humans should have known way more about their origins than they actually did

#

(Its also still a mystery to this day why an Onyx Sentinel starts speaking in Latin to Ash in GoO)

#

(But it might have been the case that Latin was the Forerunner language of old)

dusk jetty
#

I think something was monitoring humans along the way, or possibly even the librarian had a geas for Latin or something because itā€™s the forerunner language

#

Simply theory but a possible explanation

orchid kettle
#

Obviously Forerunner constructs keep being obstacles in our way, leading to our heroes having to destroy them

#

But apparently the point of the cut Halo 2 ending is that with the Ark destroyed (which in this version, contained information that was subtley guiding human progress), humanity was finally free of the shackles of the past and could choose their own destiny

#

You also have Guilty Spark begging Chief not to destroy his inheritance during his boss fight in 3

#

So it could have been that we just got to Alpha Halo too early, or something was wrong with the Ark's info-beam

#

and all we learned was Latin, and the story about a flood and an ark

#

though apparently New Mombasa was designed to resemble Forerunner architecture

#

back in Halo 2

#

Which I dunno, kinda makes sense

#

the base of the space elevator does look a bit like Delta Halo's control room

#

And similarly-- High Charity's dreadnought

orchid kettle
#

after all, why reject their influence if they're purely good

#

and they're us, so its not even space aliens telling us what to do

versed helm
orchid kettle
#

I also feel like its easier to make the connection in the classic graphics

versed helm
#

Thematically it makes sense, I just never thought of it, what said it?

orchid kettle
#

I think its mainly just evident in the concept art for New Mombasa, where at times it looks like the gas mine the heretic leader is holed up in

versed helm
#

Oh so itā€™s just an assumption? Looking at some images now I can kinda see it

#

I forgot about that weird e3 new Mombasa design though

orchid kettle
#

Because the original Halo 2 storyboards was the version of the story that would have confirmed humanity's relationship with the Forerunners, as well as the idea that the Ark is pumping information into our brains

hot zodiac
#

Yeah thats not something a dev came out with or anything. But looking at the city you can see it.

#

Also, the original keyship design is like just literally a frigate.

orchid kettle
#

its naturally hard to get a good comparison when the main forerunner building we see in its entirety are those little signal stations that shoot energy up into the sky

#

but something like this feels pretty Forerunner-y

versed helm
#

I wanna know more about the info-beam ark interpretation, that sounds interesting

orchid kettle
#

there's a video of the old storyboards if you wanna look it up

hot zodiac
#

Catalog was crazy with Latin

orchid kettle
#

i guess its just another case of muh geas

#

which i guess in either case, it always was predetermined

#

its just a lil more creepy when its an alien race doing it

#

while in halo 4, we're just left to assume that destiny is still whatever the librarian decided it was

hot zodiac
#

Just gonna speak on the whole thing a little bit and say what was happening back then was that Forerunners didn't ever intend to kill themselves at all but had to bite the bullet. They have all these Shield Worlds, ringworlds, and the Ark, all plans to survive the rings, but they're empty. We eventually learn the Forerunners had a bit of a problem with a Rampant AI in charge of their military suddenly turning against them, implying the battle between MB and OB and using the rings there was truly the last resort.

It also seems to explain why humans being "Reclaimers" is an utter mystery to us and Forerunner technology doesn't really understand why. That whole business was likewise last minute and rushed. It didn't work as planned.

#

One of the cool parts is that the Reclaimers did eventually beat the Flood by using a ring and not killing yourself and with fundamental help from an AI, making it full circle.

orchid kettle
#

I always forget about OB. I swear if his battle with MB is in the Forerunner trilogy, its super brief

hot zodiac
#

At least from what I heard people were really excited at that possibility but it justs seems a little random to me

orchid kettle
#

All we really got is the speculation that Frankie probably wrote the Librarian and Didact terminal entries, so only their stories really got expanded as the franchise continued

#

while all we know of OB and MB hasn't really gone past what we got in 2007

versed helm
#

Well I finished catching up on the storyboards andā€¦wow

meager pier
orchid kettle
#

Well, its kinda contradictory

#

Because during their podcast talking about Staten's upcoming Contact Harvest, they also said it was approved

#

and it kinda clashes with the terminals

#

and Paul Russell painted a picture where it was known that the campaign cutscenes didnt line up with the terminals

#

because the two teams werent really communicating

#

Its a weird situation. Paul blames Bungie for not caring about making sure the two stories made sense together, but also fought tooth and nail to keep the terminals in the game

#

When surely their removal would have solved the issue of any contradiction without having to reanimate and re-voice cutscenes

#

I still also argue that its really silly to make big lore changes when your lead writer is effectively in exile and has no communication with the team

#

Halo 3 sees no end of criticism for how poorly its written, especially in the wake of Halo 2

empty bloom
#

I think it's silly as a lead writer to go into exile at a time like that

orchid kettle
#

but for some reason the terminals are exempt from this even though they're symptoms of the same situation

empty bloom
#

Without strict notes

orchid kettle
#

and all things considered, Contact Harvest meshes with the campaign cutscenes well enough

#

Its only really with the terminals do we start to have issue

empty bloom
orchid kettle
#

because thats also where the hierarchs think humans are very specifically left behind Forerunners

#

and even if the dialogue suffered, 3's campaign story doesn't really contradict this

#

But back on Frankie

#

I dont think its a "coup" so much as

#

He's a single man, and anything he would have put out would have been colored by his perception of what Halo was to him

#

He could never 100% replicate what Bungie would have done as a collective because he cannot contain the multitude of their perspectives in his own

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

ah, my b for blaming Jason Jones then

hot zodiac
#

Apparantley they wanted to remind everyone writer is a position according to Paul Russel but take that with a grain of salt

#

Marcus would've had the artists behind him

orchid kettle
#

I mean, it doesnt look like a good situation either way

#

Either Bungie collectively decided to pivot hard at the last second of their trilogy

#

in which thats just real dumb

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

Or the pivot happened because of internal strife and differing perspectives

#

Neither paint Bungie as great, but it just sounds like the second is more reasonable

hot zodiac
#

The truth is not too many people at Bungie thought much about the terminals

orchid kettle
#

because I just find it easier to believe that people would have differing ideas than they all just changed their mind at the same time

orchid kettle
hot zodiac
#

I'm not too sure how it went about but I think Frank really had creative freedom on Iris and that started to influence the terminals.

#

Nonetheless Bungie did indeed mess up by not being more careful with this

orchid kettle
#

Paul Russel brings up how another terminal writer was under the impression that Forerunners were still human-- but merely split off from humanity ages ago, uplifted by the Precursors

#

which always interested me, because it sounds like a parallel of the San Shyuum backstory

#

similarly, the idea of the First Immolation makes one think of the rings firing, and resetting civilization for humanity

#

It may have been the case that these two backstories for the races in Contact Harvest were meant to parallel humanity

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

Yeah, and in either case, the Forerunner Trilogy doesnt really work with the Halo 3 terminals

#

because the Librarian has no reason to freak out about finding humans on Earth

#

when her people fought a war with them 9000 years ago, and put them there in the first place

meager pier
#

Wonder what Joe thinks of the change, I think while he may have initially been a bit frustrated, he likes Greg Bearā€™s trilogy

hot zodiac
#

The Saga was made in response to that fan reception, the old Ascendant Justice blog really lit that idea up. Not to mention, them getting hired to work on it.

orchid kettle
#

because ultimately, splitting Forerunners and Humans just means that the Didact has a reason to be angry at us

#

but he's a one-off antag who's not even really thematically relevant to Cortana's mortality in Halo 4

hot zodiac
#

I don't believe Frankie and the rest of 343i were ever doing anything malicious, I believe they thought they were giving the fans what they want.

orchid kettle
#

which is the REAL emotion core of the story

hot zodiac
#

Which, hey, some would say they did. IDK.

orchid kettle
#

Because its treated as a good thing, our destiny as Reclaimers and the true champions of the Mantle

#

thats what the Librarian wants for us, and she's portrayed as a pure heavenly goddess

#

and the Didact is evil because he hangs onto the past and refuses to let the next generation take hold

#

but ultimately, the Librarian is no different

#

The Forerunners were bad because they lived forever in super suits, ruled over others with an iron fist, and all that jazz

#

Chief blowing up his "inheritance", as Guilty Spark calls it

#

is the right answer

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

you dont solve racial hierarchies and colonism by putting the "right race" on top

#

the problem is the idea that there's a hierarchy at all

orchid kettle
#

Their practice of taking their young and implanting them with the genetics and memories of their parent in a way means the parent has achieved a sort of immortality

#

but at the cost of the new generation

#

and I think thats why Bornstellar's happy ending in Fractures is him living a humble, simple life with a wife of his choosing, free of the magic forerunner super suit that makes him immortal

hot zodiac
#

Yeah but the good-Forerunner Librarian and her plan for humanity's place claiming the Mantle?

orchid kettle
#

unfortunately I dont think there's any media thats really willing to mention how the Librarian is no better

#

Ultimately forcing her culture and ideals on another race

#

even if she thinks if for the "greater good"

#

She aint humanity's benevolent god-mother

#

she's a weeb for humans

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

and its kinda creepy

#

Right, I think that was always the benefit of the original Forerunner interpretation

#

Its not that we were secretly gods

#

Is that the Covenant's gods were actually us, and we suck

hot zodiac
#

It certainly wasn't meant to be supremacist like the Mantle

orchid kettle
#

We're small and frail and helpless compared to any other race

#

we are "weak"

#

and gods

#

must be strong

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

but then halo 4 onward, you have this idea that our "geneplan is superior to the Forerunners" according to the Librarian in the halo 4 terminals

hot zodiac
#

Is it some supremacy belief or just providing a future for your successors?

orchid kettle
#

that actually we were the gigachad Ancient Humans who were more like Spartans than us

#

and we are the true intended recipients of the Mantle

#

the Forerunners sinned because they took what wasnt theirs

#

not that being a space empire is wrong in the first place

#

but simply because the chosen master race was not in its rightful place

#

||thanks i hate it||

versed helm
orchid kettle
#

The Prophets of the Covenant originally lived on a planet divided between those that wanted to study Forerunner artifacts, and those that thought it was heresy to mess with them at all

#

the ones who wanted to study were in the extreme minority, but even so, they managed to board the Keyship, and make off with it

#

taking a chunk of the planet with them when it launched

#

and now after thousands of years, they're the masters of a massive galactic empire

#

while the San Shyuum back on the home world remain primitive

versed helm
#

Supposedly dead (probably not)

orchid kettle
#

so yeah, a potential explanation for the Halo 3 terminals, as put forth by Paul Russel, is that the same thing more or less happened with humanity

#

Only the Precursors, or whatever Bungie thought Precursors were at that point, lifted up a select group of early humans

#

gave them cool tech, and they became the Forerunners

#

and that explains that one terminal where the Librarian finds Earth and still primitive humans

#

and is fangirling hard about it

#

Its not because she recognizes this race is superior to her own or whatever

#

but because Earth is their lost home world

#

and these are their lost brothers and sisters

#

Because its mentioned in the terminals that studying "these natives may illuminate our own mysteries"

#

implying a connection thats immediately obvious

#

like, say, finding a random planet and finding other humans on it

hot zodiac
#

Should've been in the terminals.

orchid kettle
#

either case, its one of the text logs people use to argue that Forerunners were very cleanly split from humans

hot zodiac
#

"They're so... special!" is all we got there

orchid kettle
#

when that line implies otherwise

versed helm
#

Pre-343 the precursors were basically just mentioned once in an off handed way right?

orchid kettle
#

yeah

#

all thats said is something like

#

"May we follow in Their Footsteps"

versed helm
#

I find it funny how theyā€™ve basically supplanted the forerunners as the ā€œancient civilization we know nothing aboutā€

hot zodiac
#

The precursors were pretty much invented for this isolated Forerunner backstory.

#

This is the hint we were given:

TIER 0: TRANSSENTIENT

As the [Forerunners] had no examples of civilizations with technological accomplishment greater than their ownā€”with the exception of the Precursorsā€”this is a theoretical ceiling. They can travel intergalactically and accelerate evolution of intelligent life. These may be creatures of legend.

meager pier
orchid kettle
#

look, dont think too hard about the Adam and Eve allegory

#

it never ends well

#

this is kinda why I think what would have been best is that Bornstellar and his wife settled back on Earth with the primitives

#

they, uh, intermingle

#

and thousands of years later

#

boom, a bunch of people have forerunner blood

#

hence, "Reclaimers"

versed helm
#

The funniest thing is how the precursors involvement has evolved

orchid kettle
#

in this scenario too, I wouldnt have Forerunners be 15 million years diverged from humans

versed helm
#

Iā€™m pretty sure it started as accelerating existing life, then to seeding building blocks, then to making ā€œbaseā€ species

orchid kettle
#

have them be close enough that they can, uh, mingle

#

like Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals

versed helm
#

Theyā€™ve become more and more directly involved as time goes on

#

Hello

hot zodiac
meager pier
orchid kettle
#

bit of a problem tho if they're 11th dimensional beings with no physical form

#

cant really shoot that

versed helm
#

Apparently the forerunners did

hot zodiac
#

We only ever had two mentions of their existence prior to the saga. The D&L terminals and the bestiarium.

orchid kettle
versed helm
#

Iā€™ve seen it explained as the precursors just let them do it

orchid kettle
#

its said the precursors were just like, so curious about how defiant the Forerunners are

#

that they allowed themselves to die

#

as like a joke

#

i guess

#

because i guess they dont even need bodies to begin with

versed helm
#

Then they got mad and came back after refusing to fight back against the initial extermination

#

Oh yeah and theyā€™ve become the flood origin story

#

With a giant sock puppet as there leader

orchid kettle
#

i say it every time-- but I still think the Flood work better as a purely natural species

versed helm
#

Like it was said, random one off mention to the creators of basically everything

orchid kettle
#

Itd make the Forerunner's fall even more ironic

#

that for all their great technology

versed helm
#

I always thought that was the original intent

orchid kettle
#

they still couldnt conquer nature

versed helm
#

Like a basic parasite

orchid kettle
versed helm
#

Alien Dog food dust

orchid kettle
#

Human Weakness gave the Gravemind a cool motivation they havent really spoken about since

meager pier
# orchid kettle its kinda weird how they killed the precursors

Itā€™d be like a shadow person destroying your shadow, thinking theyā€™ve killed you, but canā€™t grasp what you actually are, and killing your shadow did absolutely nothing to you
Outcasts heavily hints at them actually existing outside of space and time

orchid kettle
#

and thats the idea that the Gravemind isnt trying to kill people for the sake of being evil or anything

versed helm
#

Donā€™t some people think they created the entire universe

orchid kettle
#

He's doing life a favor

#

by creating Heaven within himself

meager pier
orchid kettle
#

He claims the personalities of the people he's consumed live on within him, and they can interact with each other

#

which is basically just heaven

versed helm
#

Iā€™ve seen people say the gravemind was doing 4d chess and let himself lose in H3 because humanity needs the mantle or something

#

Well like if you put it this way, the flood want to infect everything and gain more and more bio mass, but it's also wanting to learn which is why the flood infects those. So it gains knowledge of everything here

orchid kettle
#

Which I think is a really cool idea, and plays into the idea of the logic plague as well

#

Not that its a literal computer virus

hot zodiac
versed helm
#

But in doing so, the bio mass would make a bigger better stronger hive, while getting smarter and smarter as they infect

orchid kettle
#

But its just the Gravemind arguing for his case

#

and if you listen long enough

#

You will agree

#

no ifs ands or buts

#

You will crave salvation

#

you only fear the form it takes

hot zodiac
versed helm
#

Unrelated but I forgot that gigantophicus, the giant prehistoric ape, was apparently able to talk in halo lore

#

Gravemind is a big sock puppet for me

orchid kettle
#

I remember having the idea of writing about a flood combat form

#

and instead of going the default route of "oh man I sure am hungry for BRAINS"

#

the guy inside just wants to share his experiences with the others

#

to save them

versed helm
#

Or burn em, I mean once you fall victim to the flood there's no saving you

#

Isnā€™t that the plot of Jenkins in The flood

orchid kettle
#

I forget

versed helm
#

I think

#

So

orchid kettle
#

I think the angle with Jenkins is that he's still in control, and the zombie side of him is just hungry and wants to eat people

versed helm
#

Guy gets infected by old infection form and occasionally breaks out of its control to do some stuff

orchid kettle
#

but you could argue its a flood outbreak without a Gravemind in control

#

so "Heaven" isnt made yet

#

they're still in the building block stage

versed helm
#

How far is the graveminds range anyway?

#

Wasn't there a thing that says Sargent Johnson got infected by the flood, but didn't at the same time?

#

Uh Me when captain kess (I think that's his name)

orchid kettle
versed helm
#

Are there like, flood control pylons to extend his range?

orchid kettle
#

maybe

#

I dont see why the Gravemind has to be one singular "thing" anyway

#

I think in the encyclopedia, they mention thats what Juggernauts are

#

essentially mobile-proto graveminds

versed helm
#

Iā€™m curious what the transition to from a proto gravemind to a full one actually looks like

#

Like the HW2 one gets pretty large

orchid kettle
#

its probably a lot less definitive

#

It may be more accurate to think of the proto gravemind we see in Keyes as a baby

#

while the Gravemind in Delta Halo is simply further along

hot zodiac
#

The interesting part of the Gravemind is it really believes the Flood is best for life. Everyone always thinks the Gravemind is some unreliable liar, but thats never been the case.

orchid kettle
#

rather than there being a clean cut split between proto and full fledged

versed helm
#

Well technically the gravemind is just one enetity that controls the flood near the planet THEY are on, and when I mean THEY I'm saying that. If there could, couldn't there be more gravemind enetitys connected to each other as ONE enetity with 5 body's, and not to mentioned what it looks like when THEY infect the planet it self

orchid kettle
#

but the truth scares us

versed helm
#

I know they usually get made in starships so in ideal circumstances, is each ship piloted by a proto gravemind?

hot zodiac
#

The key point is that the Gravemind uses Truth and it's genuine perspective for it's advantage.

versed helm
#

But it's cunning gives it the true advantage

#

Truth is like the only time we see someone get infected by air in a game right?

orchid kettle
#

Thats why I like the idea of the logic plague just being you debating the Gravemind

#

and you simply have no chance of winning

versed helm
#

Like remember the time the flood allyed with chief and arby to stop the Covent from shooting the halo

#

ā€œGravemind DESTROYS ancilla with FACTS and LOGICā€

hot zodiac
#

I don't like the logic plague at all. I think it's better if it's just... convincing.

orchid kettle
#

the only defense is to plug your ears and blast away

orchid kettle
versed helm
#

I always thought it legit was just a term for being persuaded

orchid kettle
#

and you simply cant out-rhetoric the guy with a million lifetimes of debatebro experience on his side

hot zodiac
#

The logic plague is ill-defined.

versed helm
#

Well dint the gravemind TOURTER Cortina into a Rouge AU?

orchid kettle
#

potentially?

versed helm
#

Like if it's able to infect Cortina like that

orchid kettle
#

Halo 2's original ending just had Cortana left with the Gravemind forever

versed helm
#

Speaking of did the main body of the gravemind acrually transfer itself to high charity? I know that was an idea from the cut ending of H2

hot zodiac
orchid kettle
#

and Bungie's always had that idea about Cortana turning evil

versed helm
#

Yeee

#

True true

orchid kettle
#

Like the Cortana letters from before CE

versed helm
#

Uh

orchid kettle
#

It kinda makes sense that she's Halo's Durandal

versed helm
#

Thatd true

hot zodiac
versed helm
orchid kettle
#

(i just dont think its all that cool in halo 5 when it actually happened)

versed helm
#

Like TOURTER

#

Not intent to kill, that's at least what my friend told me

#

I donā€™t know how they could other than psychologically

hot zodiac
versed helm
#

Tho that was a long time ago

orchid kettle
#

There's also just this idea that Rampancy isn't so much an AI thinking itself to death or whatever

#

So much as an AI finally becoming human

#

and going through all these stages of grief, essentially

versed helm
#

That's scary ngl

#

Imagine that, is that why we don't see uh that one AI serina anymore?

#

Becuse she thinked her self to death?

orchid kettle
#

Whats also interesting is that Durandal is one of three AIs on the Marathon

hot zodiac
#

"Thinking itself to death" was a part of Rampancy. Rampant AI will grow and grow and become too large for their storage system.

#

It's just the only part thats true these days.

orchid kettle
#

and Halsey theorizes in her journal that an AI trio like that could prevent rampancy

#

Kinda like how Loki and Mac are linked in Contact Harvest

#

but you know, three cores instead of two

#

where Loki and Mac appear to only be slowing down their rampancy rather than fully countering it

versed helm
#

Well I did make a theory of how serina and the rest of the AIs that sides with cortana, are alive still, just hiding put somewhere unknown

hot zodiac
versed helm
#

Mega mind

#

I'm never makeing this joke againšŸ’€

hot zodiac
#

Or y'know. A Gravemind.

versed helm
#

Yeah

#

But have you seen the ones that are like

#

The planet

#

Those gaint ones are scary

#

I think they can move the whole planet sense it's the gravemind it's self now

#

Or I mean

#

The gravemind IS the planet

#

Is what I ment

hot zodiac
#

Yes, apparently those are "Keyminds". I don't know why they did that though. The idea was that the Flood is "one". It's not like "another" Gravemind would disagree with Flood it's disconnected with.

versed helm
#

Oh

hot zodiac
#

Pretty sure this isn't the canon anymore but the original idea is that the Flood down to it's essential element (The Flood Super Cell) is all one.

versed helm
#

Yeah like I said with 5 body's one mind

#

Right?

hot zodiac
#

Yeah? I'm not sure I follow but like, 5 combat forms would be connected to the overall mind.

versed helm
#

Yeee

#

Side note, I hope bungee comes back to halo wars 2 )=

carmine sleet
#

Bungie aren't ever coming back

hot zodiac
#

Yeah I think Bungie is a little too busy not working on Halo ever again lol

versed helm
#

True true