lore-and-universe

[gray cloak]

oh yeah, can't forget the rise of the banished

[sonic lagoon]

Communist or traditionalist?

I’m assuming as said by others before a feudal system probably had some influence. At least from the looks of it.

[grand prairie]

Does anyone know if skimmers are sentient or like hivemind? Could have some have chosen to stay with the banished after infinite?

[orchid kettle]

We do hear about wealthy merchants in Contact Harvest

just that they exist

[gray cloak]

good point, but wouldnt they most likely be mercs or something?

[gray cloak]

yeah that, because im sure the sangheli's way of view was very influential on the culture

with honor and all

[surreal glen]

They are a intelligent species, each one has its own mind

Their motivation to work for the Banished is unknown to me tho

[gray cloak]

im pretty sure they're sentient, considering the subtitle dialogue in infinite

[sonic lagoon]

Would Koslovicks, Frienden, and Insurrectionists be considered communists, fascists, and socialists?

[unique rune]

They’ve got some relation to the Endless so it’s probably just some shared goals stuff type stuff.

[gray cloak]

I honestly have no clue about the insurrectionsts

[sonic lagoon]

The Koslovicks appears to be inspired by the Bolsheviks and the Frienden of German National Socialists.

[unique rune]

The Insurrection is a mixed bag of ideologies whose only shared thing is “UEG bad”

[gray cloak]

lol great summary

is the UEG capitalist?

i forgot

[unique rune]

More or less, yeah

[sonic lagoon]

Are there any factions that resemble Pinochet’s regime?

Or the Kaiser.

[gray cloak]

ah, i was only curious because in the Halo TV show (which we collectively hate), there was a list of stock info for stuff like traxus on the news in a scene

so i assumed capitalists

[sonic lagoon]

That makes sense.

[gray cloak]

but then again it isnt completely similar to canon

[sonic lagoon]

How does the Human economy of Halo compare the Human economy of Starship Troopers?

Other than being smaller in Starship Troopers due to having less planets.

[stoic hamlet]

Book or movie verse?

IIRC in the movies and etc the government controls everything.

In Halo it’s a free market, but heavily favoured by and for mega corporations.

[empty bloom]

The points are made up and numbers don't matter because they don't exist.

Also what Eternal said.

[orchid kettle]

I will always be annoyed at the idea that people living on Earth and inner colonies haven't been feeling the effect of the war until it was right on their doorstep

[empty bloom]

I mean, outside of the economy going to crap, what effects would they themselves really feel?

[orchid kettle]

the outer colonies seem to be these worlds meant to extract and deliver resources back to the inner worlds, but when they all go up in smoke, nobody cares?

[empty bloom]

Out of sight, out of mind.

I think the idea was originally that the people of Earth were so desensitized that they literally thought that it was all fake.

[orchid kettle]

I mean in 2020 we had people freaking out over toilet paper because a rumor said there was going to be a shortage

[empty bloom]

Just an excuse to further petty brushfire wars.

[orchid kettle]

if your agriculture worlds all go up in smoke

i find it hard to believe you wouldn't notice bread becoming more precious than gold

[empty bloom]

We also mostly see perspectives in cities from people who are, frankly, never going to be people who will have to go hungry a day in their lives.

Like, Sadie's dad ran New Mombasa by proxy due to his job, she'd be loaded.

[orchid kettle]

We have the kids in Meridian too, in like 2548 or something

and as far as we see, their biggest concern is who they're gonna take to prom

[empty bloom]

Well, that's also not that weird for teens.

[orchid kettle]

and not like, where their next meal is coming from

[terse sage]

There's still got to be some existential dread knowing that there are alien races trying to kill you

I know that propaganda heavily downplayed how bad the war was going, but still

[gray cloak]

Reach and Harvest should've been when everyone started panicking

so weird

[sonic lagoon]

What were the biggest gangs (if any) in Halo?

[stoic hamlet]

Reminder that they had a concert where they all dressed as/basically displayed as Covenant races.

… during the war.

[terse sage]

What is this from?

[empty bloom]

The Banished and Jackals are basically gangs.

[stoic hamlet]

Battle Born

[empty bloom]

So they had fursuits

[stoic hamlet]

They used face paint.

[empty bloom]

Cowards.

[terse sage]

I wonder, did Reach surpass Earth in terms of GDP or whatever their equivalent is?

[empty bloom]

I doubt it.

[stoic hamlet]

But yeah, definitely one of those situations where like….lol guys no.

[stoic hamlet]

Reach was primarily a military planet.

Tribute, or Circumstance maybe, but Reach is unlikely, IMO

[terse sage]

Reach became the primary industrial site for the UNSC, that's got to bring some hefty economic power

Alongside Mars

[stoic hamlet]

Tribute and Mars, not Reach.

Well, they were the biggest shipyards.

[terse sage]

Tribute is in the same system as Reach right?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

But they’re not really “the same”, like, I wouldn’t count them under the same umbrella.

[versed helm]

Never read TFOR, does it really imply elites only show up in the last year? (Yes I know it’s been retconned to hell and back)

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

[versed helm]

Wow

[stoic hamlet]

Remember when it was written Halo had no games released, there was no established lore. The fall of Reach established basically everything.

[orchid kettle]

The idea in Uprising as well is particularly crazy when Cole Protocol came out, and told us a million refugees from Madrigal showed up at Earth one day in the 2530's

[terse sage]

So they had just been fighting Grunts and Jackals until that time?

And Brutes

[versed helm]

Apparently?

[stoic hamlet]

Yes.

[orchid kettle]

Just Grunts and Jackals

[stoic hamlet]

Ground battles were rare.

[orchid kettle]

and Grunts having weapons at all was considered unusual

[stoic hamlet]

They’re much more common now.

[versed helm]

How did the battles even go, did grunts just hit people with their fists?

[stoic hamlet]

But most often in the early lore Covenant troops never set foot on most plants.

They kicked the Navy’s butt then glassed the world.

[orchid kettle]

The UNSC was also apparently doing so badly in 2552 that there were only 20 cruisers left in the whole empire

[versed helm]

It’s fascinating how much has changed

[stoic hamlet]

That’s still partially true.

Not the amount, but the rarity.

[orchid kettle]

I thought it was retconned that only 20 of a particular type of cruiser remained

[stoic hamlet]

Marathon’s are still used as flagships when originally they were line ships.

[orchid kettle]

or maybe thats a fanon thing

i know they love their Vanguards

[stoic hamlet]

Because they’re just so rare now.

But there’s definitely more than 20 left.

[orchid kettle]

on a sidenote, pretty weird how the Fall of Reach audiobook they sell on audible is actually the original print of the novel

[terse sage]

Was the PoA the last Halcyon class?

[orchid kettle]

despite having the 2010 artwork

[stoic hamlet]

Probably a bigger change is how humans navigated space.

In the early fiction (until around Ghosts of Onyx) humans had no artificial gravity, all their ships were either zero-g or used spinning sections to generate gravity.

[orchid kettle]

the superior way

[stoic hamlet]

Agreed. I miss it.

[versed helm]

Aw I would’ve loved to see halo ships with the big gravity rings

It does make CE’s first level really weird though

[orchid kettle]

Its mainly smaller ships that lack artificial gravity

not all ships

like, you would float in a Pelican or a corvette or something

but now its all artificial gravity 24/7

[stoic hamlet]

To add to the gravity aspect, originally you could identify a navy veteran because of the way they walked when on a planet, because their body was used to ship gravity.

[orchid kettle]

the chad stride

if you will

[stoic hamlet]

Described as a “loping gait”.

[orchid kettle]

it could honestly still exist now, if artificial ship gravity isn't 1:1 with Earth

[stoic hamlet]

The difference between Covenant and human gravity is still somewhat a factor, as Silent Storm notes the Spartans were surprised at feeling a sensation of “down” when walking on the Covenant ships, whereas human artificial gravity wasn’t as capable.

[orchid kettle]

but it kinda feels like modern halo is all about optimizing the kinks out of UNSC technology

until evrything is a perfect utopia

[versed helm]

Oh yeah another thing, I’ve seen a ton of different answers, are ODST’s augmented besides a neural interface? I’ve mostly seen either “no they aren’t” or “they get a few”

[stoic hamlet]

No.

[orchid kettle]

ODSTs are normies

everybody has a brain chip

but otherwise they're just marines who are good at what they do

[stoic hamlet]

Just the interface, like everyone else in the UNSC.

[orchid kettle]

thats why Chief beats the snot out of them in Fall of Reach, more or less

[versed helm]

I’m curious where the idea came from because I always see the same few augments listed

[orchid kettle]

they were the best humanity had to offer before

so Chief folds them like a lawn chair

[versed helm]

Something about not needing to eat or sleep as much is what people say

[orchid kettle]

to establish the new pecking order

That sounds more like Spartan-IVs

[terse sage]

I'd say it's comparable to the difference between SEALs and regulr troops today

[orchid kettle]

Spartan-IVs, unlike II and IIIs, are adult volunteers

[terse sage]

Like ODSTs are the best you can get without augmentations

[orchid kettle]

which naturally may include former ODSTs

[terse sage]

Like all of Alpha Nine except the Rookie (rip)

[orchid kettle]

but apparently a lot of ODSTs refuse the offer to join, or at least, see those who do accept the offer as "traitors"

because they have a big rivalry with the spartans

[terse sage]

Do the Spartans really acknowledge the rivalry or is it mainly just ODSTs hating Spartans

[orchid kettle]

It is purely one-sided

[stoic hamlet]

The latter.

[orchid kettle]

Its a result partially of the rumors of a Spartan beating up a bunch of ODSTs barehanded spreading, and also just the inferiority they feel at no longer being the best humanity has to offer

[versed helm]

Beat up by a 12 year old once, never forgiven

[stoic hamlet]

Part of the rivalry stems from the initial confrontation on the Atlas.

Part of it is the fact they’re being “replaced” (they aren’t)

And partly that the Spartans were “stealing the glory” later in the war as the propaganda initiatives ramped up. While the ODST’s were quite literally dying in droves in the mud.

[terse sage]

Spartans getting all the credit when ODSTs are out there dying is sure to make some people pissed

(thats how i'd view it from the ODST perspective)

[versed helm]

What did the average marine think then?

[orchid kettle]

There's also just some people who are distrustful of Spartans in general

[stoic hamlet]

That too, yeah.

Gibson, for example.

[terse sage]

The average Marine seemingly views Spartans as heroes and saviors

[orchid kettle]

Weirdos in power armor show up out of nowhere some day, they got numbers instead of names, and suddenly there's all this propaganda about them

[terse sage]

We get that vibe from Rubicon Protocol at least

[versed helm]

I assume as time goes on they’d be more popular for obvious reasons

[stoic hamlet]

They were a (poorly kept) secret for several decades.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, when the concept of Spartan supersoldiers starts feeling normal to the population at large

of course they're gonna be seen in a more positive light

especially when you have Chief being toted as humanity's savior

[versed helm]

How widespread was the whole kidnapping thing known?

[stoic hamlet]

But those first few initial years the military didn’t trust them.

[orchid kettle]

uh-- its kinda hard to tell

[versed helm]

By current date specifically

[stoic hamlet]

It’s hard to say.

[orchid kettle]

It should by all rights be pretty top secret

but then Thorne just knows about it

and talks about it like its common knowledge

[stoic hamlet]

Though a lot of newer books seem to make it seem pretty well known but not really acknowledged.

You have ONI agents just up and telling some people.

And even people who seem against it don’t really put up much of a fuss.

[terse sage]

The IV's are probably told about their predecessor's origins

[orchid kettle]

The whole point of Hunt the Truth is that Ben, a journalist, finds out that the Spartans are kidnapped kids

and he spreads the word

[stoic hamlet]

They know some things.

But not everything.

[orchid kettle]

but then ONI discredits him at the end, and he's seen as a crackpot

[stoic hamlet]

They know theIII’s are “volunteers” but that’s it, for example.

[versed helm]

I assume at the very least the clone thing is still a secret

[stoic hamlet]

And Thorne notes that the only thing he’s been able to find out about the III’s is that they did some missions near the end of the war, on Meridian, Reach, and etc.

But then considering they had no formal records or any electronic records at all, that’s not terribly surprising.

The II’s are more well known, but not by much.

[orchid kettle]

its very strange

especially when HtT paints this as a secret so terrible it could spark the insurrection anew or something

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah, it’s one of those odd things that doesn’t quite make sense.

[versed helm]

How powerful even is the insurrection post HCW?

[orchid kettle]

honestly it seems like the Insurrection post-HCW is largely the New Colonial Alliance

and I mean, they've staged a couple of attacks on the Infinity

so pretty decent

but we really havent heard much from them since Hunt the Truth season 2

[stoic hamlet]

It’s interesting as well, because of how space travel and etc works… any Spartan deployed from preteen or early teens (like the II’s and III’s) would still look (roughly) the same age even when they’re “of age” due to Cryo.

So a II deployed at 15 would still probably look 15 well into the 2530’s, just due to how much they moved around; etc.

[orchid kettle]

I never really vibed with the idea that the IIs are all baby faced when its mentioned that their augs are gonna give them supercharged puberty or whatever

or when you have Blue Team infiltrating Watt's asteroid in disguise

which granted was always weird because they're seven feet tall

but now they're seven feet tall and also look like babies

[versed helm]

I vaguely remember seeing references to bootleg Spartan programs or atleast non-UNSC MJOLNIR

[stoic hamlet]

I don’t think it’s baby faced, necessarily,

But they’re all likely neotenous to some extent.

It’d also depend on how one carries themselves, what they wear, etc, that would help “fool” most people, or just not have them really think about it enough to notice in the moment.

[terse sage]

We also hear about them in New and Bad Blood

[orchid kettle]

well there's innie elements but I don't know if they're explicitedly NCA related

probably the guy who turned Mickey traitor

since they had the other Innie Spartan too

[terse sage]

I thought they were the Front

[orchid kettle]

Innies come in different flavors

[versed helm]

It’s basically just a huge coalition of groups that think “UEG bad” isn’t it?

[stoic hamlet]

IIRC there was an old YT video (which isn’t the best source) where bartenders were asked to tell who was underage just by appearance alone, and several teens were said to look “mid twenties” or something.

The youngest was 14, IIRC.

But the bartenders didn’t realize it due to her height and dress/demanour

[orchid kettle]

essentially

I think the idea of the NCA is that they're actively trying to create a rival state

we dont really know about any of their goals beyond "Destroy UNSC" tho

so thats just my head canon

but Ive noticed that a lot of worlds post-war got their wish for independence, more or less

[versed helm]

They did?

[orchid kettle]

and it doesnt really seem like they have a ton of reason to actively incur the UNSC's anger

[stoic hamlet]

Gao.

Venenzia.

Mesran was basically independent even pre war.

[orchid kettle]

its more like the UNSC is so messed up right now that they cant really keep everybody in-line

[versed helm]

Ah, gotcha

[orchid kettle]

so its better to just let them do their own thing

[runic wharf]

The URF only just began to re-create itself following the end of the war of annihilation

[versed helm]

I’m curious if the covenant had anything similar to the insurrection, probably

[orchid kettle]

the Banished

[versed helm]

Oh yeah

[orchid kettle]

They're not really as ideologically motivated though

except I guess in how they dont believe the Covenant religion or follow the Prophets?

and they just want to stack that paper

[versed helm]

I can’t imagine the religion is super prevalent anymore

[orchid kettle]

you have the Heretic Leader or the Grunt Rebellion as well

[versed helm]

I like to imagine all those random covenant fringe species literally haven’t seen any changes

[orchid kettle]

probably only really the Yonhet

because now some of them have found their way into human space

[meager pier]

Let's get the Dazreme, the shark people in a future game 😆 https://www.halopedia.org/Dazreme

[golden rain]

They remind me of the Zora from Zelda

[manic root]

Thoughts on the sentinel Beam being a hardlight weapon.

[orchid kettle]

i dont like hardlight weapons

covenant weaponry is supposed to be reverse-engineered forerunner tech, but its really hard to feel that if you make all their weaponry hardlight instead of plasma

[carmine sleet]

So long as they're introduced in a level featuring water, I wanna see them in their natural habitat first

[carmine sleet]

Given it's Forerunner, it makes sense

[carmine sleet]

That's a fair criticism, though I take it as a case of Covenant tech has never reached the point where hard light projectiles was capable of being made and used effectively so they have to make do with superheated plasma instead

[meager pier]

I'm fine with hardlight weaponry, as they would want to disintegrate biomass that has been or could be infected by the Flood
Though some could argue that the Sentinel Beam wasn't a hardlight gun in 2 and 3

[manic root]

I hate how the hardlight weapons in 4 and 5 function like human weapons they just fire hardlight rounds. It's stupid the sentinel Beam functions differently then any human we apon which is what hardlight weapons should be. Even if they are based on ancient human weaponry because the promeatheans are composed humans ancient human weaponry would definitely be function differently then UNSC weaponry.

[carmine sleet]

The Forerunner weapons we see in the games predate when the Ur-Didact was composing humans

[carmine sleet]

I'm glad they brought back the disintegration effect for them in Infinite, part of me was worried it was gonna be left behind when they made the art style they did for Infinite

[warm ridge]

Scattershot in Halo 5 doesn't operate like any other Human weapon at all, neither did the Boltshot or Suppressor.

Only really the Light Rifle did which in a weird way it was basically the Battle Rifle unscoped, and the DMR scoped. Pretty unique that it was essentially 2 weapons in 1.

We definitely need more weapons like that to

[warm ridge]

Covenant Weaponry is reverse engineered Forerunner tech with there own twist on it because the Covenant doesn't understand how Hard light works or it's functionality at all.
The Covenant did have limited knowledge on hardlight stuff afaik and knew how to make it, just not how to use it for weapons. Some amounts of shields used by the Covenant are indeed hardlight.

[orchid kettle]

There's any number of potential explanations, but I don't think it really changes how it's a connection that you simply don't feel.

If anything, Forerunner weaponry in Halo 4-5 end up behaving more like remixed versions of human weapons, connecting those two factions instead.

(which is odd in a Halo continuity where Forerunners are not Human, unless the implication is once again the Librarian geas making humans want to copy the Forerunners)

[carmine sleet]

The Scattershot was clearly designed to resemble and function like a shotgun by 343i

[warm ridge]

The point is the Scattershot doesn't behave the same way. It's bullets go much further, they bounce off walls, and can track players when bounced off of a wall.

Like it has a unique functionality that makes it useful which a normal shotgun doesn't have.

[carmine sleet]

It's still basically a shotgun

[warm ridge]

that's like me saying the dmr and battle rifle are the same weapon lol

[carmine sleet]

Like, I don't know anyone who ever cared to ricochet its shots to get kills

[warm ridge]

(they aren't)

[orchid kettle]

Yes

[empty bloom]

It's hard to think of a weapon gimmick that hasn't already been done by some faction's weapon in a Halo game. The Cindershot and Heatwave are problably the freshest examples, but half of both weapon's gimmick is borrowed from old guns (Grenade Launcher and Scattershot, respectively).

[empty bloom]

Covenant snipers and marksman rifles have historically borrowed from human, then Forerunner, then Human, designs in terms of behavior. Does that mean that Sangheili are descendants of humanity?

[orchid kettle]

Yes

[empty bloom]

[orchid kettle]

I generally do dislike Covenant weapons functioning like human ones, it is true

ill never forgive halo 2

[empty bloom]

I don't really see any value in getting pressed over it.

[orchid kettle]

At least the beam rifle still fits with the covenant in terms of being a battery operated energy weapon

And Ill always prefer the needle rifle over the carbine

[empty bloom]

The Needle Rifle is just the DMR

That trades shield damage for increased enemy awareness, mag size, and fire rate

Even takes the same amount of rounds to kill an unshielded enemy

[orchid kettle]

I know

[empty bloom]

DO YOU

[orchid kettle]

[sonic lagoon]

Oh so what are some alternate factions from the news Infinite Skins that exist? I’m curious.

[orchid kettle]

what skins

[empty bloom]

What skins would those be?

[gusty star]

What is blud talking about💀

[carmine sleet]

Are they referring to the fractures stuff?

[versed helm]

From like a gameplay perspective?

[empty bloom]

Just poking fun at the concept AlphaBenson posed.

[versed helm]

Oh I thought you legit meant they had some Ancient human tech lmao

Which apparently is still around in very small amounts

[empty bloom]

I'm pretty sure there's a Stargate episode about that actually

[versed helm]

That was the original “ancient advanced humans” wasn’t it?

[empty bloom]

One of them.

"Ancient advanced humans" is a really old trope.

[versed helm]

Hell, does Atlantis count?

[empty bloom]

Yeah.

[versed helm]

Do we know what kind of weapons AH used?

[empty bloom]

Not really ovo

[versed helm]

All I can think of is the gun we see that one soldier carrying in the H4 cutscene

[empty bloom]

Apparently they used directed energy weapons of some variety, including a 'fibril cutter' and weapons that bore a superficial similarity to a beam rifle in mechanics but not appearance.

And this is apparently what their ships looked like.

[versed helm]

Modern humanity is the only race that uses chemical based weapons right? Unless brutes count

[empty bloom]

Grunts have used their own breathing supply of methane to gas human POWs on Zeta Halo.

[versed helm]

Oh I mean like projectile chemical propellants

[empty bloom]

Ah.

[green mica]

Why isnt the flood on zeta halo

[versed helm]

Everyone else seems to have skipped over it due to reverse engineering forerunner tech

I think they’re in one of those storage pods?

[empty bloom]

Brute spike weaponry is mostly fired via gravitic propulsion.

[unique rune]

They are, just locked away in storage facilities

[green mica]

how do you know

[orchid kettle]

We checked

[green mica]

does it say that in rubicon protocol

[unique rune]

Because that’s how the Flood is stored?

[orchid kettle]

we asked the flood if they broke out

and they said no

and i believe them

[empty bloom]

Basic knowledge of forerunner storage methodology, knowledge of known Halos, preexisting lore about Zeta Halo.

[green mica]

oh

ok

[empty bloom]

We know they're there. We know they exist. We know they haven't escaped.

[unique rune]

But also there’s a pod infector in a Cylix in the second mission

[versed helm]

Isnt there like a graphic of a flood pod on a- yeah

[green mica]

is there a gravemind on zeta

[empty bloom]

No. Why would there be?

[orchid kettle]

You can also just find a single flood infection form in a cylix in Infinite

[green mica]

cuz there was one on delta

[versed helm]

I think it’s been mentioned off hand in armor descriptions that apparently the flood is doing stuff, but the UNSC nips it in the bud before it ever becomes an issue

[orchid kettle]

cylixes are weird

[empty bloom]

And there wasn't one on Alpha. Delta is an anomaly.

[orchid kettle]

you apparently need Reclaimer admin privileges to open them

which kinda begs the question of how the Covenant released the Flood back on Alpha Halo

[green mica]

why was delta an anomaly

[orchid kettle]

unless the Flood were just in an unlocked box

[empty bloom]

... Because the flood broke out before the Covenant ever got there.

[unique rune]

something something every ring is different

[versed helm]

Maybe they were just in those liquid tanks?

[green mica]

how

[empty bloom]

We don't know.

It just did.

[green mica]

shrodingers plothole

uh oh

[empty bloom]

Not really a plothole.

[versed helm]

Forerunners are just really bad at building flood containment facilities

[green mica]

thenw what happened

bad story telling

[orchid kettle]

its also kinda wild to think that there's just hundreds of humans in those cylixes

[empty bloom]

I explained Halo to a 6 year old, apparently.

[green mica]

skill issue

[orchid kettle]

and Chief just leaves them there

[unique rune]

I mean you don’t really need to know how it happened

It’s like, not relevant in the slightest lmao

[versed helm]

Wouldn’t they just be like, cavemen?

[green mica]

it would be nice to know tho

[orchid kettle]

imagine a harem of neanderthals

[empty bloom]

I mean, I get it. That's an entire moral dilemma that I don't think Chief is prepared to even consider.

Jesus christ, Alpha.

Wrong chat for that.

[green mica]

lol

[empty bloom]

Did you forget where you were, lmao?

[orchid kettle]

[unique rune]

What a terrible day to have eyes

[orchid kettle]

my ideas are too radical for this server

[green mica]

it is nice tho to know that the weird community is almost zero for halo

benefits of a militaristic game

[orchid kettle]

but yeah, kinda wild to think about how crazy Zeta could get if somebody just decided to let everybody out of their cylix

[versed helm]

So about those Endless huh…

[orchid kettle]

including ancient Elites and Grunts and Brutes

[green mica]

bro what

[versed helm]

I mean from like

A story perspective Lmao

[green mica]

hmmm

sure

[empty bloom]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YOU'D LIKE TO THINK SO

[orchid kettle]

[versed helm]

So they just got imprisoned for not dying right?

[green mica]

well when you compare it to genshinimpact or like overwatch

[orchid kettle]

essentially

[green mica]

yes

[orchid kettle]

also something something living time

[versed helm]

Time travel?!

[empty bloom]

"We don't know crap all"

That's basically the Endless in a nutshell.

[orchid kettle]

technically you're always time travelling

one second into the future at a time

[green mica]

your bed is a time machine to breakfast

[orchid kettle]

more like a time machine to 3am

and then i just lay there in the darkness

[green mica]

bros got sleep apnea

[orchid kettle]

until it's time to leave

i actually do kinda think we're gonna get time travel in Halo

but i think its gonna be like, just sending people into the future

[versed helm]

You travel back in time to stop the prophets from ever leaving their home planet

[green mica]

cryogenics and lightspeed travel is literally that

[orchid kettle]

and thats how Atriox avoided dying to Cortana blowing up the ring

[green mica]

if 343 does that im quitting halo

[orchid kettle]

he just got sent forward to when the Harbinger fixed the Silent Auditorium

so he can be the bad guy of Halo Infinite 2 or whatever

[versed helm]

The Iso-Atriox

[orchid kettle]

Like, wow, a portal opened up in the Silent Auditorium that sent Chief into the future before it blew up

and Atriox was also in the Silent Auditorium when it blew up

just assumingly-- Atriox got sent six months into the future, instead of three days

[empty bloom]

Technically we did, just forward and dilated at two seperate points in canon.

[orchid kettle]

yeah but First Strike was pretty whack

[empty bloom]

I have no actual issue with time travel so long as it's not intentionally done to 'change the future'.

[orchid kettle]

and I dunno if 343 is gonna go that crazy

[empty bloom]

God, I hope not.

[orchid kettle]

then again, the Weapon mentions how the signal the Harbinger is fiddling with is "old"

so who knows

[green mica]

what is the weapons new name?

[empty bloom]

We don't know.

[green mica]

at the end it was implied that she chose "cortana" but what is it

[empty bloom]

Halo Infinite left on a cliffhanger that makes Halo 2 look like a complete story.

[green mica]

is it acc?

[orchid kettle]

she's keeping Weapon as her last name

first name Ineda

[green mica]

lmao

[stoic hamlet]

No no, he first name is “The”

[green mica]

why not "Anita"

[versed helm]

New name? Halo

[empty bloom]

It'll likely be something else relating to a mythical sword.

God.

I hope it's not Cortana.

[orchid kettle]

She names herself John-117

[empty bloom]

Sam would work.

[versed helm]

It’s gonna be Cortana

[green mica]

Cartona

it should be Cartona

[orchid kettle]

Bobana

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I know, I'm just not ready to prepare for that much BS.

[orchid kettle]

Banana

[empty bloom]

God, it'd be so stupid if it's Cortana.

Like, really?

[versed helm]

“What about…the librarian?”

[empty bloom]

You guys kneejerked that hard?

[green mica]

why not "chief master"

[empty bloom]

Let, the name, rest.

[orchid kettle]

no it'd be Cortana Jr

since she's technically Chief and Cortana's daughteru

if you think about it

[green mica]

nahhhh

[empty bloom]

She's just Halsey's second daughter.

Well

Third

Fourth

Maybe fifth

Considering she just cloned brains out of habit apparently

[green mica]

well lets count them

Halseys clone,

Kalmiya

cortana the first

[empty bloom]

I don't really count the brain clones because only the show had her use full body clones.

[green mica]

how many clones did she make

i never watched the show fully

[empty bloom]

As many as she needed AIs for

[green mica]

cuz it was so abd

[versed helm]

What if she chose Halsey lmao

[orchid kettle]

You know, I thought she made a ton of brains because 99% of them would explode and die

[green mica]

then the weapon

[orchid kettle]

like the flash cloned kids

[green mica]

so halseys fourth child

[orchid kettle]

and Cortana's brain was just the one that survived

[empty bloom]

Like the pig thing in galaxy quest?

[orchid kettle]

ye

i guess its vague, but I wasnt really under the impression Halsey had more viable brains

until Shadows of Reach

[empty bloom]

I always figured it was maximizing her workload, actually.

"Well, everyone else is more stupid than me, time to make AIs based off of my brain"

Though it begs the question, how the hell was Halsey able to do something nobody else even deigned to consider, apparently?

I mean, I wouldn't mind a soft retcon explaining the Smart AI industry as normally using cloned brains, with most of the POV AIs being exceptions.

But then Cortana would stop being 'unique', despite... Not actually being based off a living brain by normal 'living brain' standards?

[orchid kettle]

Considering its a thing Halsey did, Im sure it later got specified as a heinous crime

like, the brains are fully conscious people as they die in their jars

[versed helm]

Something something Geas

[orchid kettle]

and not just lumps of gray matter in a tube

[empty bloom]

Boy, early Halo lore really messes up future possibilities, doesn't it.

It's like you can't go five feet without something in the way of a good idea.

[orchid kettle]

i assume what she meant is that its possible to refer back to her "source material", aka Halsey's noggin, and try to reconstruct her neural pathways or whatever that way

[empty bloom]

From the game (4, duh), she asserts that what makes her special was that the brain was still alive when Halsey made her.

[versed helm]

Speaking of Cortana

[empty bloom]

Which is... Weird.

[versed helm]

Why did she become evil again?

Was this ever like…explained

[orchid kettle]

of course Halsey's brain years in the future isnt really the same brain as the brain that became Cortana if you think about it

[empty bloom]

Well

Yes.

It's actually pretty easy to explain if you know anything about Halsey's personality and pay attention to Halsey's actions and lessons versus her ersatz daughter.

It's not directly spelled out, because you know

You need a functioning brain and memory to get it right away

[versed helm]

I always assumed it was from the Gravemind in some way

[empty bloom]

The Gravemind only really accelerated it.

It's not the Logic Plague, as that typically manifests different symptoms.

[green mica]

each ai has a 7 year parameter

[empty bloom]

Halsey, for a very large part of the storyline, was very 'ends justify the means'. She actually got broken out of it hard in Escalations, which was supposed to be Season 3 and 4 of Spartan Ops.

[green mica]

by the time of halo 4, that 7 year limit has been exceded quite a bit already

by i think a whol year

[empty bloom]

Cortana is very much her mother's daughter.

[green mica]

so she got rampancy

[versed helm]

Im curious if it’s a rampancy specific thing or if it’s just Halsey breaking through

[green mica]

which is literally insanity for ai's

[empty bloom]

Little of Column A, a little of Column B.

[tropic forge]

The memory transfer is the key, the technology they developed for the Spartan-II flash clones.

I would like to see some reference to them starting to use clone brains given what happened in Anarosa (only some brains are viable) but for the most part the technology doesn't exist yet--Halsey had to use the Spartan-II flash clone tech to get the brains.

[empty bloom]

Cortana's own experience is also a significant factor, and also the position she was thrust into after the fall of the Mantle's Approach.

Cortana basically got the golden keys to a second chance to help everyone.

And, with Halsey's little habit of "Yeah I'll break a bunch of eggs for this omelette", Cortana deciding to put everyone in a big 'get along' shirt was an option that appealed to her.

[green mica]

MKB is superior to controller

[empty bloom]

Usually I use more flowery speech for this but honestly, I get fatigued explaining why Cortana went traitor becuase THANKS TO A CERTAIN YOUTUBER people like to think it's either Logic Plague, pure rampancy, or just 343i playing "Time to assassinate the character!".

But in reality, that twist was actually one of the most understandable and acceptable I've seen in fiction that historically has pretty middling writing.

[unique rune]

Man I wish the Logic Plague stuff had never gained any traction

[empty bloom]

There's a lot of fan stuff in the aftermath of 5 that soured a story that's actually pretty damn well thought out.

Like, the execution's not great

[green mica]

whoever thinks its smth other than the pure rampancy + logic plague is somehow completly misinformed and i have no idea where they got their info cuz it really doesnt say anthing about anything other than those 2

[empty bloom]

It... Literally isn't explained to be logic plague.

[green mica]

bros brain isnt braining

[empty bloom]

No, yours isn't.

Clearly.

[green mica]

maybe

[empty bloom]

Like, you made that obvious by not reading a word I said.

[green mica]

but yours isnt either

no like the way you worded that was so bad

[empty bloom]

The Logic Plague was only posited as a theory by a Covenant Prophet, who only says it's possible, but not guaranteed.

And I outright said rampancy was a factor.

[unique rune]

There’s a captured San’Shyuum that offers it as a possibility in a single Legendary Crate drop? And I remember people latching onto that hard

But he also wouldn’t actually know like. Anything of value

[green mica]

it is the main facter

like 80%

[empty bloom]

Not really.

It's maybe like, 35-40%.

[unique rune]

The main factor is just Cortana being Cortana lol

[green mica]

she was active for 9 years until she died

[empty bloom]

Cortana's a person built on Halsey's neural pathways, who didn't learn the same lessons Halsey did to be deprogrammed of her ambition.

[green mica]

she was 8 years during the events of halo 4

[empty bloom]

Wow

It's almost as though

[unique rune]

the stuff about rampancy and the Domain just dialled back some of her restraints

[empty bloom]

I know she's rampant

^

[green mica]

thats already a whole year over the rampancy limit

[empty bloom]

Okay?

And Sloan's like 2-3 years over

So?

[green mica]

who tf is sloan

[unique rune]

Rampancy isn’t a hard limit, 7 years is just a guideline so a Smart AI doesn’t accidentally self-destruct a ship or something

[empty bloom]

Blud didn't even play 5 and he pretends he knows more about Cortana's face-heel change than I do

Sad, many such cases

[green mica]

ive played halo 5

[versed helm]

Isn’t Sloan making fake AI monstrosity pseudo-Spartans now

[empty bloom]

Sloan wants to do that. He made one.

[green mica]

and i choose to say that the events of halo 5 are not canon

[empty bloom]

And he gave that one to Linda's old AI.

[green mica]

wait is this iratus

[unique rune]

Multiple Smart AI have pushed well past the 7 year line and functioned… mostly fine

[empty bloom]

Cool, then you can leave the conversation because nothing you say about 5 has any value anymore in this conversation.

[green mica]

daddy chill

[empty bloom]

What the hell even is that.

[green mica]

lmao

[empty bloom]

It's also canonically wearing MERROW-Class Chimera, for some reason.

[versed helm]

How old was the SOF’s first AI when they “died”?

[empty bloom]

It's also the guy who wrote the datapads in Reach.

[green mica]

so who is sloan

[versed helm]

Everyone’s favorite, the assembly

[empty bloom]

3 days before 7 years old.

She started experiencing extreme rampancy early, apparently.

[green mica]

how old is roland

[versed helm]

“What if I let the flood exist for a bit lol”

[green mica]

during the events of halo infinite

[empty bloom]

Sloan is the Governor-type AI utilized by the Liang Dortmund Corporation in Halo 5 who helps Osiris team find Blue team, begrudgingly, and then throws his lot in with Cortana at the end.

They say his name a lot in 5.

[green mica]

oh

[empty bloom]

Roland would only be around 3-4 years old by Infinite.

[versed helm]

Didn’t he just let almost everyone in his colony die

[green mica]

what is the story of iratus

how did the banished make an ai like that

[empty bloom]

"What if we used a brute brain for an AI"

It wasn't the Banished who made it.

[green mica]

who made it

[empty bloom]

The Banished stole it.

From Lux Voluspa, an AI company.

[green mica]

why would they make an ai froma. brute

[empty bloom]

Because they have brains.

[green mica]

but why

[empty bloom]

Because they did.

[versed helm]

Because why not?

[empty bloom]

Bro do you even science

[unique rune]

They wanted to do some finding out

[versed helm]

How many species have had smart AI’s made of them?

[green mica]

is there an elite ai

[empty bloom]

We don't know.

[green mica]

they should make one

what brain is chatgpt made from?

[versed helm]

Do the elites even have an opinion on AI?

[empty bloom]

They don't trust it.

Most Covenant species are effectively trained to never trust AI because rampancy clouds an AI's mind enough for it to be a threat.

It's almost as though making an AI with emotions is a bad idea, huh.

[green mica]

but like banished elites

[versed helm]

So I imagine an Elite AI would probably hate itself

[green mica]

covenant is destroyed now

[unique rune]

They should make an Unggoy AI

[empty bloom]

They were raised in the Covenant. They likely don't trust it due to being raised to distrust it.

[versed helm]

Didn’t it shatter into a million splinter states?

[empty bloom]

It did

[green mica]

but the biggest spliter faction was destroyed

[empty bloom]

But it's goofy to think it's a clean break. Religious orders falling is never a clean break.

[green mica]

so essentially its no a thing at all

[empty bloom]

Plus, it's not like you can just immediately unlearn thousands of years of cultural and religious indoctrination

[green mica]

also

where are the female sangheili

like

[versed helm]

Around

[empty bloom]

One is a pilot you talk with in Halo 5.

Another is one of the Arbiter's direct advisors in martial council.

[green mica]

wait

the scion?

[empty bloom]

Yep

[green mica]

do you see her in halo 5

[empty bloom]

No.

[versed helm]

I assume you’d barely be able to even tell

[empty bloom]

There's two seperate Elite women under the command of Thel in 5, but only one talks and the other never actually showed up in any game ever.

You never see their model.

[surreal glen]

The Sangheili culture is heavily inspired by ancient samurai

So uh

[empty bloom]

Apparently it's actually quite easy.

[surreal glen]

Most of their soldiers are male

[empty bloom]

That's more of a 'basic human culture' thing

[versed helm]

Wasn’t there one depiction of them but it was said that it was just an art style and not a “canon” appearance?

[empty bloom]

Elite women are apparently much more thin and lithe than males.

And shorter

Basically, standard dichotomy.

[green mica]

how would it work

like

[surreal glen]

And I am not sure but I suppose the Covenant didn't allow female soldiers, the Arbiter does, but when you have permission then it's up to willingness

[green mica]

iykyk

[empty bloom]

I know it's not up for discussion here.

[green mica]

got it.

just cuz in red vs blue

[versed helm]

Aren’t female Jackals in infinite?

[green mica]

tucker gets pregnated by one

[empty bloom]

They've been in almost every Halo game.

Dude, don't discuss it.

[surreal glen]

The Banished are very different to the Covenant

[empty bloom]

Just don't.

[surreal glen]

The Covenant wouldn't let Elite minors to wield energy swords, the Banished don't really care

[green mica]

ok ok bro jeez

[empty bloom]

The Arbiter is extremely socially forward leader, which is part of what earned him so many enemies.

[versed helm]

I’m surprised there aren’t more since the Jackals generally have a Matriarchal society IIRC

[green mica]

so do drones

where is arbiter in infinite tho

[carmine sleet]

While it may look like Halo, Red Vs Blue isn't canon to Halo

[empty bloom]

Still on Sanghelios, putting out fires.

[surreal glen]

Drones are the exception, most of the Drones you fight are female, you know this because male Drones don't even have wings

[empty bloom]

The planet's 'his', but not 'his' 'his' thanks to the Created.

[green mica]

but there are like so many references to it in halo

[empty bloom]

So?

[green mica]

liek 343 makes references to them

ok

[versed helm]

Didn’t the drones just go back to their planet?

[carmine sleet]

Because references and easter eggs are fun

[surreal glen]

Yeah

[empty bloom]

More or less.

[carmine sleet]

Not every reference is a canon thing in the games

[empty bloom]

They aren't really interested in galactic affairs.

[green mica]

well for the banished they arnt part of that cuz atriox didnt want them

[versed helm]

convenient excuse to have them never show up again

[green mica]

if your read the book about him

[surreal glen]

Most Drones didn't want to stay with the Covenant after the war, but they didn't want friendship with humanity either, they just kinda left

[empty bloom]

I mean, as a species, it does make sense.

[carmine sleet]

Like, Fireteam Crimson didn't shoot radios they found on Requiem in canon

[empty bloom]

Fireteam Crimson also wasn't one guy who kept dying infinitely.

[green mica]

how many spartans are in fireteam cimson

[versed helm]

I mean if we went with that interpretation what would those weird Easter egg monkey things be

[empty bloom]

4-5, if you believe the megabloks set.

[carmine sleet]

4-5 Spartans

[green mica]

like cuz you can only go up to 2 players in halo 4

[versed helm]

Lotta jokes and stuff

[empty bloom]

... It's 4 player co-op?

Like

[green mica]

is it?

oh

[surreal glen]

The monkeys with human faces are not canon, they're just an easter egg
a very creepy easter egg

[empty bloom]

I've played it with 4 players

[green mica]

mb

[carmine sleet]

I would love to get more names for Crimson's roster than the one we do know

[surreal glen]

Also Halo 5, and technically a couple missions in Halo 3, are the only instances of coop mode being canon

[carmine sleet]

Aye, love that my boys N'tho and Usze are canon

[versed helm]

You mean there wasn’t a second master chief wandering around?!

Shocking

[surreal glen]

As cool as it would be to think that the Arbiter went with Chief to retrieve Cortana in High Charity, the canon version is the singleplayer one, so he only came to help us escape

[versed helm]

Must…not…bring up…flood spores…

[carmine sleet]

Please don't, I really dislike the idea of that being a method for Flood infection

[surreal glen]

Oh it is

That explains the Flood spartans in Halo 4's Infection looking different

[carmine sleet]

I know, doesn't mean I have to like it

[surreal glen]

Spore Flood go 🐴 🐴 🐴 ⚔️

[versed helm]

It’s like schrodingers infection method

It depends on if the plot needs it

[surreal glen]

When you consider that the original trilogy happened in the span of at much, 2 and a half months

It is kinda unbelievable that the Chief went from almost dying to a single Flood infection form in the Pillar of Autumn and only surviving thanks to Cortana to fighting his way through an infested High Charity and come out on top

[carmine sleet]

That Mark VI really put in some work to help keep him alive

[empty bloom]

I like to think part of it was him just hauling rear to get in and out as fast as possible.

[surreal glen]

I like to think that too

[empty bloom]

And the Gravemind also putting up just enough effort to figure out what the hell Cortana was up to, without giving away that he wants to know.

[surreal glen]

After all, it is explained that he was very scared in his first encounter against the Flood

[empty bloom]

Also

The Gravemind could've been trying to fight off the Sentinels at that point as well

It's less that he can't mentally intuit two problems at once

And more 'this sentinel thing is problably more important'

[runic wharf]

❤️😔

[surreal glen]

I still don't fully understand how he managed to send Flood to Installation 04-B after being majorly damaged and High Charity was seeminly destroyed. Much less how the Flood forms were falling from orbit in the mission Halo when we didn't see the Flood having command over any ship at that moment

[empty bloom]

Don't question it.

[unique rune]

The harder you think about Halo 3 the more pain you inflict on yourself

[empty bloom]

I mean it actually has a pretty simple answer though

Maybe he just brought an infested corvette or something along

And shipped that over ther

[carmine sleet]

I hope the Gravemind was just trying to swat them away like flies with their large tentacles

[empty bloom]

I mean, the proto gravemind in ATN does that

[carmine sleet]

True

[unique rune]

The Gravemind should’ve bought one of those salt guns from the shopping channel

[surreal glen]

I love me some good plot holes

[carmine sleet]

Or made giant Flood fly swatters

[empty bloom]

There's a reason why someone saying they like Halo 3's story is a meme.

Shockingly, writing a song doesn't mean you can write a story.

Marty.

[carmine sleet]

If only more understood that

[runic wharf]

His escape from the blockade by the Sangheili fleet, his pursuit of the most poignant threat (the Ark) and use of light craft as scouts before seizing upon the opportunity to fully consume the one tool that existed to stop him are all exceptionally logical

[surreal glen]

I'm not as mad to the plot holes in the original trilogy as I am that people don't condemn them, but they will totally attack Halo 4 giving Master Chief a new armor without explaining it

[runic wharf]

Disposing of High Charity to enable the seizure of the Ark is straight stonks

No more keys turning

The galaxy is your oyster

:>

All flood now :>

[surreal glen]

Well

The Flood is gonna win at the end

We're just slowing down their victory

[runic wharf]

Nope

Assuming such is illogical

The Precursors intend to win, but the Flood likely will not

It was merely one of the more successful revenge attempts by the Precursors

[versed helm]

Exactly, the precursors will finally come back in halo 7 and give the mantle to its true inheritors, the Yonhet

[surreal glen]

Isn't there just 1 Precursor left alive

[runic wharf]

They already have been back
Endless are Precursors in the same way as the Flood are and the Primordial One from the Forerunner saga

‘Pure’ Precursors are likely only those ‘spirits’ on Netherop

[sonic lagoon]

The armors that exist with alternative universe based origins. Like the Samurai and Ninja armors.

[carmine sleet]

I want a map based on the mound on Netherop so bad

[runic wharf]

Honestly I wish Nizat had gotten some therapy rather than taking himself and his partner to their doom

[carmine sleet]

Those sets of armour are just there to look cool, though the Chimera core does exist in canon in the form of a single person who was turned into one

[carmine sleet]

Something tells me Nizat would've refused to

Especially given how he acted towards Arby when they first met

[runic wharf]

He definitely would

Its more just ‘Damn, Wish he wasn’t such a religious Zealot’

Me everyday looking at Sangheili

[versed helm]

Is that confirmed? Or is it a theory?

[carmine sleet]

Not confirmed

There is definitely some evidence to them being connected though

Given that Harbinger does directly quote the Gravemind

[runic wharf]

She, word for word, speaks as the Gravemind has

[carmine sleet]

Honestly, it's possible that Harbinger may have known a poet that was assimilated into the Flood hivemind

[runic wharf]

In addition, Rubicon Protocol goes into detail about how overwhelming her presence is a la Primordial upon LCpl Browning; Something the Audio Logs in game do poorly at presenting

It won’t be confirmed until some big reveal a game or campaign down the line

But yeah, it is the case based upon all facts existent so far

[sonic lagoon]

I thought they had some articles or texts about how they or similar armors were from different timelines, to explain how they exist.

[carmine sleet]

Yeah but that's it

Honestly, Chimera is the one I mainly care about because of how it is in canon

[sonic lagoon]

Different timelines means different canons, canonicity is only a part of fiction or truth in relation to itself.

A example would be how the world of Fallout varies from our own, and its own canon.

[exotic pulsar]

Yeah people think the divergence point was when we didn't make transistors. Yet, transistors exist in Fallout.

Instead of using nuclear energy for weapons at the start though. We used it to make all kinds of stuff from cars to robots.

[dusk jetty]

Not confirmed, but originally I was skeptical but I think it’s true now. You don’t quote the gravemind unintentionally.

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf, of all his quotes, that’s the one that’s least odd to say unintentionally.

But yeah, that’s not just a coincidence.

More than likely the Xanalyn were uplifted by the Precursors like the aliens from Netherop, but aren’t precursors themselves.

[meager pier]

I'd say the Endless being either Precursors themselves or servants of them are the most likely direction 343 will take them

If this ends up happening, I wonder how they'll introduce this deep lore for fans that've only ever just played the games

[carmine sleet]

My guess is it'll be more like what Eternal said

Like, when we learn more about them, they'll say something like "A higher power helped us and now we serve to protect it from those the Forerunners chose"

[orchid kettle]

Turns out, its a bad idea to exile your lead writer right before its time to sit down and write the ending to your insanely popular franchise

[exotic pulsar]

Wouldn't call Halo3 the end. I mean it was originally I imagine, but everyone demanded more halo.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah but even then, when it came time to make two more games, they ultimately chose prequels

For as nonsensical as Halo 3 is, it does more or less put every dangling plot thread to bed

Guilty Spark is dead, Covenant are defeated, Flood blew up, the Ark exploding while all the rings are in standby mode may mean that the Halo rings will never be a threat again

[exotic pulsar]

Right, because leaving Chief floating in space was the best kind of send off to this character. I personally liked Reach anyways.

[orchid kettle]

sure you don't know where the Flood comes from but that's obviously something that's supposed to be a mystery

or at least, works perfectly fine as one

[exotic pulsar]

Thing is, if it did go down that road that 3 was the last Halo game, the whole Believe marketing ploy would have just been an in lore ONI Psy Op.

[meager pier]

Halo 3 suffered from a number of problems: They had to turn the 3rd act of Halo 2 into its own entire game, Joe Staten was away for a large portion of the development, and some that were coming up with plot points weren't writers

[exotic pulsar]

Yeah imagne that. Chief is left floating in space and to explain his death and cement his legacy, ONI does an entire Psy Op mission.

[orchid kettle]

The only real hitch comes from the terminals in Halo 3, as they conflict with the in-game cutscenes

because the terminal team apparently were just doing their own thing from the campaign writers

Its insisted that all of Bungie agreed with the change from some employees, but I still think its wild to even have such a big lore change when your lead guy is out

It'd be like if Marty stepped out of the room to use the bathroom, and then the rest of the people in the meeting decided Halo was going to feature country music instead of the Gregorian chant

[exotic pulsar]

That would be funny and ironic. That the BELIEVE game ad campign used actors and props for the covenant weapons in IRL was in lore is a ONI psy op mission using actors to paint a story of how the chief really died and use that to cement his legacy.

[orchid kettle]

Believe reminds me actually of the Reach epilogue

Both are about humanity decades after the war, talking about it and whatnot

now its kinda funny to think that a million more galaxy-threatening villains have probably appeared in the intervening years

and humanity in fact never really found peace

[meager pier]

Actually, when they were in the early stages of making 1 of the 2 final Halo games (contractually obligated by Microsoft) they did briefly consider making Halo 4, but decided against it, as they didn't want to start a new story up and hand it off to someone else to continue and finish, hence why they went with making Reach instead, as they felt it'd be easier going the route of making a prequel

[orchid kettle]

ye I know

But I don't think that takes away from the sense of finality Reach's epilogue had

not so much for the game itself as the franchise in general

[exotic pulsar]

Yeah we know that, and there are still people mad about Halo Reach "contradictoring" lore set in The Fall of Reach to this day. Bungie did their best to make that month timeline on Reach make sense.

[orchid kettle]

Reach is easily the biggest blemish on the original "Bungie-verse" if you wanna call it that

[meager pier]

I do feel the 2589 is gonna always remain the epilogue of the franchise
Everything has to eventually lead to that moment

[orchid kettle]

I like Reach, but its very hard to reconcile both stories

[exotic pulsar]

I wouldn't call it a blemish as it sets up for Halo: CE. We really didn't know how exactly Cortana got the coordinates for that jump to the Soell system.

[orchid kettle]

It involves a lot of people lying and keeping secrets very little reason

[pale blaze]

space dust

[orchid kettle]

Well, in Fall of Reach, its from the crystal

Chief makes an off hand mention of the symbols appearing familiar, and then Cortana realizes its a star charts, just thousands of years out of date

[exotic pulsar]

Someone literally made a timeline to explain how both the book and game fit together.

[orchid kettle]

its a lil sloppy tho in the book

because its very last second

Personally I do prefer the idea that humanity fought and bled for those coordinates knowing it was something important to the war

[exotic pulsar]

Yeah but that doesn't explain HOW she got the data from the crystal. Pretty sure she wasn't anywhere near halsy during that month period. Reason why the fragment works.

[orchid kettle]

She just taps into an ONI database

and she can just do that because she's the greater infiltration program ever

its not a super satisfying answer imo

[meager pier]

Halsey's journal did the best it could to reconcile the game and book

[exotic pulsar]

It's kind of boring to be honest that she could just do that.

[orchid kettle]

Nylund is kinda trying to make the jump to Halo more purposeful

but he's also trying to preserve the idea that Keyes and Chief think its a random jump

so its just a random whim of Cortana's, and she decides to place everybody's life in danger

as opposed to, yeah, the idea that she was at least aware of something huge and important that could win the war was on the other side

a "latchkey discovery", or whatever

[meager pier]

I remember being taken aback when 1st playing Reach and being like, "Wait, Cortana knew about Forerunner stuff before CE?!"

[orchid kettle]

actually I guess the latchkey discovery is just what allows Halsey and Cortana to access the Forerunner ruins under sword base

but we don't know what that discovery is

[exotic pulsar]

Most likely the coordinates to 04.

If Cortana could just easily get the data from the ONI Database that would just make the sacrifice of noble team mean nothing.

[orchid kettle]

i remember a certain youtuber suggested that the "discovery" was humanity's relationship with the Forerunners

and that's how Halsey accessed the tech

though it kinda implies nobody ever tried touching it until then

its very strange, and I think its one of several problems I have with Reach's narrative

the latchkey plotline feels ill defined, and it kinda just disappears for a while before being brought up again at the end

[exotic pulsar]

I like Halo Reach's story because despite the planet being doomed, the sacrifices that Noble made paved way for the discovery of Halo and lead to the eventual downfall of the Covenant.

[orchid kettle]

I think Reach's strong suit is more or less the same as any Halo game

its presentation

in terms of the story

[exotic pulsar]

I mean, even before the game was made we all knew Reach was doomed to Fall.

[orchid kettle]

Its got real nice moments where the backdrop is pretty and the music swells

but look a little closer, and you'll see the cracks in how exactly we got to those moments

[versed helm]

The best part of reach was later something saying they wanted to use the supercarrier you blow up for RED FLAG but no one coordinated it so the army just jumped the gun and blew it up

[stoic hamlet]

A lot of FPS’s are like this, really.

Some manage it better than others, but a lot of early 200’s/2010’s FPS (even modern games) are sold on their presentation, not necessarily their stories.

Resistance Fall of Man, for example, is near and dear to my heart, honestly if it caught on more I think I’d enjoy it more than Halo.

But its actual story is paper thin and it has no real characters at all. The main character talks less than Cheif in CE, for example.

But it’s world is presented so well with some stellar gameplay moments that I can’t help but love it.

[orchid kettle]

And if you let Staten do his job, then you get a Halo game with some snappy, quotable dialogue

[exotic pulsar]

Ah yes, random alien species comes to earth before WWII and takes out russia, then the world.

[orchid kettle]

CE's dialogue is honestly charming too, but we're often laughing at it

[meager pier]

Interestingly enough, Halo 2 and ODST are the best written Halo games by Bungie, which were chiefly written by Joe

[orchid kettle]

And Contact Harvest is the best Halo book

👌

the Staten Sweep

[stoic hamlet]

Ye.

[meager pier]

I'd say Silentium is the best Halo book, but, to each their own

[orchid kettle]

I quote Infinite's dialogue a lot too

mostly Escharum

99% Escharum

[meager pier]

I wonder how Halo 3 would've ended up if Joe had been around for the game's development the entire time

[orchid kettle]

The dialogue would probably be better

[stoic hamlet]

Miranda might not have died in such an asinine way

[orchid kettle]

The broadstrokes would probably remain the same I'd imagine, unless he'd advocate for the Arbiter to remain a playable character even in single player

[stoic hamlet]

Thel might have been an actual character again.

[orchid kettle]

I honestly wonder if Truth's speech to Johnson was written by Joe before he went on an extended vacay

Because he thinks humans are leftover Forerunners

Which is what Truth comes to believe in Contact Harvest

[empty bloom]

What's funny to me is that I think it would've been more understandable if it had been Cortana saying it. If they didn't throw her out with the bathwater for that replacement goldfish.

[orchid kettle]

Mercy mentions as well in Halo 2 when Truth is on his way to fire the rings: "and this time... none of you will be left behind"

[pale blaze]

interesting

[orchid kettle]

also the "Gods... must be strong" line feels like the only piece of dialogue people quote without it being ironic

[versed helm]

The current explanation is a bit of a handful isn’t it

[orchid kettle]

besides were it so easy, I guess

[empty bloom]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a character being just flat out wrong.

[versed helm]

People taking the Gravemind at face value for anything

[orchid kettle]

I mean, in either case, Truth is wrong

villains talking smack about how the heroes suck usually are

[empty bloom]

You're really telling me an alien meat monster with a goal to kill every single thing, ever, to make more meaty reef zombies, would lie?

[versed helm]

He would never!

[orchid kettle]

i mean, whats the goal

[versed helm]

Can someone who speaks like a poet really be evil?

[empty bloom]

Honestly, what's less realistic is it stopping its tendency to speak in verse because Cortana told it it was cringe

[orchid kettle]

i feel like I need to repeat what I said way earlier in this server

A character's actions can be "wrong"

but they should always be motivated

[empty bloom]

What if the motivation was 'habitual liar'

[orchid kettle]

And there's just kinda no motivation in the Gravemind calling Chief child of my enemy if he, you know, isn't that

[versed helm]

“Child of my enemies common ancestor” doesn’t sound as good

[empty bloom]

Are you saying adopted children aren't a thing?

[orchid kettle]

That's not really a compelling motivation

Ive said this a bunch too, but Halo 3 has enough narrative problems without the idea that all three antags are just lying to you to mess with you for the lolz

[empty bloom]

Who the hell is the third antag?

[orchid kettle]

"The sins of the father pass to his wife's pet monkey"

[versed helm]

Spark I suppose?

[orchid kettle]

GS, Truth, Gravemind

[empty bloom]

Three are crazy, two are wrong for different reasons, and the third can be construed as alluded to an imperfect meaning

[versed helm]

What was the name of the monitor that the GM had in halo 2?

[empty bloom]

Like, if you are someone's adopted son, it is not catagorically incorrect to call you their son.

I don't think it's really lying if you're just flat out wrong, either.

[orchid kettle]

GS is crazy because he's violent

not really because anything he says is flat out untrue

At least not in 3

[empty bloom]

Penitent tangent

[empty bloom]

Oh, no, I'm talking all the way back in CE

[orchid kettle]

Because its not like in CE where he mistakes Chief for a Forerunner. His battle dialogue includes him begging Chief to not destroy his inheritance

Which makes it sound like Spark is fully aware during the battle that Spark isn't flashing back like in CE

he knows Chief is part of the next generation that will inherit the Forerunner's goodies

[empty bloom]

He also goes back to making the same unhinged hums and statements as CE though, between bouts of clarity.

[versed helm]

Wasn’t the lore with him that penitent just sucked?

[meager pier]

Also, if Joe was around for the entirety of 3's dev, Truth would've been written to be a schemer using the Covenant faith to get power for himself, rather than a full-on zealot

[empty bloom]

You can be a schemer and a zealot.

Ah well

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, but none of his dialogue is self-contradictory

Guilty Spark's violent tendencies also to me always felt like a glitch in how the Forerunners programmed him

Second the ring is gone, he's fine and dandy and everybody's friend

Add the ring back into the equation, and it's murder mode

[versed helm]

I haven’t read the material associated with it, but isn’t he like a guy who was composed?

[orchid kettle]

Yeah, but as far as we knew during the original trilogy, he's just a Monitor

They made him an ancient composed human because he was an important character in the original trilogy

[versed helm]

That wasn’t like standard for all monitors was it?

[orchid kettle]

Any fiction that goes on long enough tends to implant its established characters with greater in-universe importance than they ever had originally

like the idea of Chief being Space Jesus in Halo 4

[meager pier]

Iirc, Frank came up with that idea, and Greg was very skeptical of it, but it was his son that convinced him on how it could work

[versed helm]

I still don’t know what the explanation is for that intro cutscene

[orchid kettle]

or why every shonen protag will eventually be revealed to be part God

[empty bloom]

Probs didn't know how to write him back out of the story lmao

Marty problably had to be held back from typing that Arbiter got spaced or some crap

[orchid kettle]

I mean, Im sure killing him for good was always the idea

Because the Ark blows up at the end of Halo 2's original storyboards as well

[empty bloom]

You know what

Happy ending idea for me is having Truth do it.

As in, Truth somehow kills Spark.

[orchid kettle]

it kinda makes sense that if you expand the story, Spark is kinda all you got left after dealing with Truth and the Gravemind

[empty bloom]

And then the brutes also turn on Truth and beat you to the punch.

Literally.

[orchid kettle]

Truth honestly probably could considering his chair is supposed to have massive lasers on it

[versed helm]

Isn’t there some theory Chief is part didact or whatever?

Reminds me of that

[meager pier]

Here's what would've played before and after the Truth boss fight for the intended Halo 2 ending https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/032/993/524/large/lee-r-wilson-x11-1-06.jpg?1608082687
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/032/993/571/large/lee-r-wilson-x12-1-01.jpg?1608082852

[sonic lagoon]

So how many religions does halo have overall? Human religions, The Great Journey, The Stoics, The Mantle, flood worshipping cults, etc. Are there any others

[exotic pulsar]

I wouldn't call The Mantle of Responibility a religion.

Not in the sense of a religion I mean. Yeah it's a belief but not something deeply religious. It just means whoever holds the mantle has the responsibility of caring for the other species of the galaxy.

[empty bloom]

It's more a theoretical 'thing' to attain, and not necessarily a good one.

[ruby canopy]

The mantle could fall under religion. Religion has a few definitions

‘A pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.’

[meager pier]

The Mantle is more of a philosophy, not really a religion

[ruby canopy]

How so?

[feral perch]

Have you watched all of the Believe marketing campaign? It leans heavily into painting Chief as a self-sacrificing, Christ-like hero. It's also completely misleading because they were not given the game's actual story to work with, but nobody cares about that apparently.

[feral perch]

Some people believe that John inherited the IsoDidact's genesong.

[versed helm]

Yeah that

I always attributed that to Spark being old and crazy but who knows

[feral perch]

The original Didact came to be known as the Ur-Didact, and his name was Shadow-of-Sundered-Star. The IsoDidact was a young Forerunner who was given the original Didact's geas. His actual name was Bornstellar-Makes-Eternal-Lasting.

[hot zodiac]

The theme of Chief being a honored hero figure was absolutely present in Halo 3.

[feral perch]

The theme, sure, but not the actual story of Believe.

Believe says that Chief won the final battle of the Human-Covenant Conflict by detonating that plasma grenade and killing himself and the Brute holding him.

[hot zodiac]

In that case, I'd say you'd have to ascribe that a lot of advertisements, but I digress.

[feral perch]

I'm saying it gets nowhere near the amount of crap that Halo 5's marketing campaign gets, despite the fact that it was equally as misleading.

I guess the difference is that, somehow, Believe managed to be a more middling story than Halo 3, so we got something better than what was advertised.

[hot zodiac]

Because it wasn't. "Hunt the Truth" was setting up a narrative that Halo 5 would a spy-thriller-like story of Chief-vs-Locke. Believe was setting up that Chief would be a famed Hero figure with his life in the balance.

[feral perch]

That's being generous.

Believe was setting up the final battle to happen on Earth.

Halo 5 did have a Chief vs Locke battle, although it wasn't a spy thriller.

[hot zodiac]

The actual plot of Chief using a grenade in a field was never presented as "this is exactly what you're going to get". You'd never believe that unless you were trying to defend Halo 5 lol

[feral perch]

Why not?

[hot zodiac]

I feel what I said is self-evident. If you'd like, I'd agree that Halo 2 had misleading advertisement by only having 2 (effectively one) ground mission on Earth.

Under this lens you'd have to say Starry Night was also misleading.

[feral perch]

Regardless of Halo 5's existence, I can't help but feel a little let down by Halo 3's actual campaign (not its narrative, just the gameplay and level design) when I watch Believe and Starry Night.

Starry Night was one trailer that is somewhat represented by the level The Ark.

Believe was a whole campaign with a specific narrative.

[meager pier]

Religion is primarily centered around a deity, while the Mantle is more centered around the philisophical idea of what stewardship of the galaxy entails

[orchid kettle]

I meant more so the idea that Chief's existence was thanks to an alien genetic prophecy embedded in mankind

[versed helm]

I always felt there was a little wiggle room

[ruby canopy]

There are multiple definitions though. I would mostly agree about it being centered around a deity. The definitions for it leave for a bit wider interpretation

[feral perch]

I mean, the idea that humans are connected to Forerunners has been around since Chief's feeling of familiarity with Forerunner symbols on the artifact in Côte d'Azur in TFoR. What Halo 4 explicitly states is not that big of a leap.

[meager pier]

I've never seen it that the Librarian planned as far ahead that Chief himself would come about, but rather she planted our past accomplishments in our subconscious, basically us retracing our steps, rather than Librarian having mapped everything out

[orchid kettle]

But the thing is, as far as we know, Ancient Humans weren't obsessed with genetic splicing and supersuits with AI inside them

but you know who was?

Forerunners

The Librarian is essentially trying to recreate Forerunner society in humans

[versed helm]

I mean they did have armor and AI, dunno about AI in the armor or the genetic stuff

[orchid kettle]

Thats what an ancilla is

and Bornstellar thinks of her as a lady glowing blue

which is obviously referencing Cortana

[versed helm]

I miss purple Cortana

[orchid kettle]

Every Forerunner also undergoes a genetic mutation to match their "rate"

in which a "parent" imbues a child with their genes and memories

and the child more or less becomes the parent in the eyes of Forerunner society

its why Bornstellar can become the Didact

and why the Librarian just considers him her new husband now

even though she technically married Sundered-Star, the previous Didact

[versed helm]

That’s kinda hilarious

[meager pier]

I imagine there'd be some genetic division of the Ancestors
Iirc, Point of Light had Librarian say she wasn't imposing or implanting her plans for us on us, but helping relearn what we had accomplished millennia ago

[orchid kettle]

but whats confusing about this is that the forerunner trilogy paints a forerunne society that almost deserve to get Flooded

Bornstellar's story ends with him choosing his own mate, and choosing to live a simply life free of the armor and technology

[versed helm]

Wasn’t the thing with AH that there were legit multiple different human species in it

[orchid kettle]

obviously implying that the Forerunner way of life is, uh, not good in the eyes of the story

but then the Librarian tries to force that lifestyle on humanity

and shes painted as humanity's benevolent god-mother

[versed helm]

Would you consider her an Antagonist?

[orchid kettle]

When all she is is a colonizer

like-- thats what its called when you force your culture on another ethnic group lol

[versed helm]

Honestly has any human character even voiced an interest in the mantle?

[orchid kettle]

That kinda reads like course correction on the part of the writer

I feel like 343 understands that implying that all of human history was orchestrated by female Voldemort is not a very popular idea

so they're trying to pivot

but 100% their idea was that the Librarian was turning us into Forerunners, and that was good for some reason

Because Halo 4 is full of stuff like "The Spartans are our next step as a species! The humans gene plan is superior to our own! I planned it all, your armor, your ancilla!"

[empty bloom]

Oh god, she's one of the worst forms of weebs.

[versed helm]

That cutscene alone makes her an antagonist for being a huge lore dump

[empty bloom]

Technically, yes.

[orchid kettle]

if you count cortana as a human in digitized form

[empty bloom]

Some of the goals of ONI would align with the goals of a group attempting to attain the mantle.

[orchid kettle]

but like, surely in Halo 4, humanity acquiring the Mantle is seen as a good thing

[empty bloom]

Specifically, the eradication of organized competing alien power structures.

[orchid kettle]

Because the Didact is a villain precisely because he refuses to believe the Forerunners' time is over

[meager pier]

I'm sure members of ONI would be interested in the Mantle

[versed helm]

I always thought the idea they’re going with is the mantle is, yknow, bad

[meager pier]

I still feel that's where it's headed

[orchid kettle]

They changed gears in Halo 5

again because I think they realized that Halo 4's themes are very sketch

at least when it comes to forerunner stuff

[empty bloom]

I have the feeling Brian Reed and Armando Troisi or whoever argued about it.

[versed helm]

Halo 4 was the first time we saw an unmasked forerunner right?

[empty bloom]

Considering Brian Reed's baby were the things that denied the validity of the mantle, I'm inclined to believe he was the sane one of the two.

[orchid kettle]

Yeah but isn't Thorne's thing in Spartan Ops is that he's proving Halsey wrong and he is worthy to be a Spartan

aka-- the next step of the species

[empty bloom]

That's more just teaching Halsey to stop being such a damn egotist about her work. Again.

She was similarly snarky and pissy about the IIIs, remember.

[meager pier]

Correct