#lore-and-universe

1 messages · Page 40 of 1

obsidian thistle
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Its less messy

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More just something that people understandably overcomplicate

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But by all means X helmet being used on Y doesn't mean its Y, or that its Y "compatible".

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It needs lore that says something tied to Y to give it that distinction

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Rakshasa is the very definition of random stuff being used LOL

dusty ferry
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actually, should we discuss Viper and how Rakasha variant systems are used in specific flood containment?

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I know that sort of misses the point, but its vaguely relevant

obsidian thistle
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I thought the idea was more akin to Yanme'e hives but I'll need to look into it later

dusk jetty
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I am glad to see that UEG was not completely wiped out

meager pier
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Might sound weird, when do you think the academy narrative was supposed to be set? At the beginning it was supposed to be after the prologue, so around 6 months before Chief wakes up
Even though there are cutscenes anymore, wonder where we're supposed to be now

dusty ferry
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I want to say we have at least caught up to rubicon protocols signal given some stuff that’s coming out, but I have no real evidence for that

stoic hamlet
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The timeline of JAMS is pretty nebulous.

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For example, there’s a new Rakasha piece mentioning ONI officers at JANS were surprised to see it due to its connection with black ops units… but that doesn’t exactly mean anything. Rakshasa is a suit that was in use long before the Created, and it’s just as likely the Spartans mostly at JAMS in the first place we’re wearing it before the Created even arrived.

dusty ferry
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the only reason i guessed post signal was a couple new emblems suggest it

stoic hamlet
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Oh?

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I’ve seen (well, been the one to post) some newer emblems, but none seem to really suggest it, that I can see?

dusty ferry
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The ones which mention fighting the banished on zeta halo in my eyes imply that the signal made it to the academy by now

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because otherwise that wouldn't really be known enough to have emblems referencing it

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(i know its a stretch, but its about as close to an actual timeframe as we'll ever get)

last anchor
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NGL that looks sick. I wearing that without hestiation.

last anchor
patent aspen
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ب_ب

dusk jetty
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And ONI, not being completely wiped out was a good choice

stoic hamlet
# dusk jetty And ONI, not being completely wiped out was a good choice

I mean, overall. humanity would have far less of an issue with the compartmentalizations than Abby one else. In a way, them being so slow with travel and isolated with communications is a boon, not a detriment.

The hits from Created interdiction would be more like a slow ripple, rather than a wave like with other species.

orchid kettle
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like Arby has to fool Cortana that he's staying home when he's actually on a ship leaving the system

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but the ship is allowed to leave

dusk jetty
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That was weird

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Like you’d think Cortana would know surveillance could only go so far

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But then arby just takes another ship

orchid kettle
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Yeah, but I guess otherwise, you just don't have a story

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because of how powerful and omnipresent a Smart AI would truly be

empty bloom
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The goal of the Created seems to be more disarming, then controlling, governments transparently; Not directly wiping out governments and adding the beefy task of control. For example, Balaho seemed to be entirely self-governed with Created backing.

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So as it seems, Cortana's Created were entirely fine with a species or group self-governing... Provided they don't fight.

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And considering three of the species involved are absolutely inherently warlike, that automatically exhibits a pretty major flaw.

last anchor
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I'm going to assume she planned to slowly cool the more aggressive species over time.

Didn't get thr chance obviously

orchid kettle
empty bloom
empty bloom
orchid kettle
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Its kinda hard to be that invested in Arby's goal to shake off the chains of bondage

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when Cortana's oppression is just that she wont let them keep their cool swords

empty bloom
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Yeah, that stuck out to me too.

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You'd think that a weapon remaining ceremonial would actually be trivial to allow for.

drowsy mesa
terse sage
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So are the flood actually back or is the flood customization non-canon

carmine sleet
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I think it's a case of the customisation is meant to be representing a canon fireteam that encountered the Flood, but the when in the timeline is not too clear

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We just know it's post war due to the protocols mentioned

terse sage
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Maybe some fireteam encountered the flood on Zeta halo or smth

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Are there flood on zeta halo?

stoic hamlet
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Every ring possesses flood samples.

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The UNSC has had bases on Zeta since 2555, so that’s plenty of time.

Though it could be anywhere, really.

terse sage
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But the flood wasn't only contained on the rings

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So it could've been some random research station

stoic hamlet
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Yeah. It could be from another forerunner site, or something.

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Yeah.

last anchor
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Energy shields recharged.
Oh fantastic

stoic hamlet
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There’s precedent.

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Happened with Sangheili combat harnesses, after all.

terse sage
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But Spartan shields are meant to be superior to Elites

stoic hamlet
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Honestly there’s no reason it wouldn’t recharges, I don’t think.

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As long as the armour was still powered, the shields would recharge automatically.

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Regardless of flood infection or not.

terse sage
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I wonder what would happen to the AI of a flood infected spartan

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Would it also become flood or would it still be independent?

stoic hamlet
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I feel like logically protocol would dictate self-termination.

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But I suppose it depends on the AI

terse sage
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But Flood are capable of infecting AI to some degree right?

last anchor
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Logic Plauge aye

dusk jetty
vague scroll
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per the newest intel, at the very least if a Spartan gets infected, the Flood can do code injection

orchid kettle
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which is interesting, since that implies that the "plague" is an argument that does too good of a job of being convincing

dusk jetty
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I always imagined it as the old saying “if you give someone an idea, make it sound like it was their own, that way they’ll love it.”

empty bloom
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Well, good to know that they had their head explode.

stoic hamlet
empty bloom
versed helm
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Are clans forced into the Banished or are they voluntary? Or is it both?

empty bloom
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Situational.

empty bloom
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Because considering the entire point of Gallows is that it blows up the part that is you, the flood basically should just be getting a workable suit.

vague scroll
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I want to say maybe part of the neural interface reader - part of the helmet - rather than the brain might have still been accessible

empty bloom
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Course, I do think it's also bogus that the system also doesn't auto-zeroize considering that's both simple tech to implement, lightning fast, and going to happen anyways when the fusion core detonates.

vague scroll
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I would suggest the wrist computer if the Spartan one but the image accompaning the intel doesn't show one

empty bloom
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Good luck restarting the fusion reactor when all the kickstarting programs are turned to dust, Flood.

tropic forge
empty bloom
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It makes a good point, but also corrupts you into thinking that good point is better than it really is, as I understand it.

orchid kettle
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I think it's spookier that there's no manipulation happening at all

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feels more Lovecraftian

empty bloom
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Eh, it's kind of against the spirit of the flood if it's purely Charisma.

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The flood is a force of nature combined with the vengeful death-hate of gods that hate life. They really shouldn't be able to get by on charisma alone.

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Hmn.

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Guess I can't say that word.

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Did you at least get to see part of what I said?

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Whatever, I'll retype it minus one word.

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The flood's overall ethos is effectively a butchered combination of the Warhammer 40K Necron's Destroyer and Flayer Cult's ethosi (Ethoses?) in terms of how they view all life. While it's certainly abhorrent and alien, it's not the kind of raw hate and hunger that is incomprehensible to people by virtue of being unknowingly alien, and it isn't exactly what I'd consider an essence that is noncorruptive in its formula.

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So while I get the appeal of it being purely done through arguments that make sense, it sweetening the pot by also effectively shredding your mind in the process is just as eldritch.

orchid kettle
empty bloom
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Oh, yeah, the whole 'pet food' thing was really stupid and problably the only thing I legit disliked about the Flood in the Forerunner books.

orchid kettle
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Re-reading Human Weakness, the Gravemind's argument is that he's essentially making heaven real within himself, and its pretty dope. So Cortana should hop on in.

empty bloom
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I don't mind them being some revenant of the Precursors, though-hate corrupts, inside and out, and hate makes you lie. To yourself, to others, to everything, just to hurt that much more.

orchid kettle
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and I dunno, if the Gravemind is a collection of millions of minds throughout history, I don't think it's that strange that he could argue circles around any individual intelligence

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Also kinda figure that that amount of knowledge and brain power would already make the Gravemind a god-like figure, and didn't really need the backstory of literally being the leftovers of some vengeful god

empty bloom
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Thing is, there's only so much arguing one could realistically do when you know the thing talking to you actively hates everything and everyone, and is a malign, wrathful intelligence. After a certain point everything it would say is an outright lie because it starts to fall outside logic. Ergo, having it function as an infohazard that by its very presence in your mind but more to the end of 'rewiring' you to be more receptive to it makes sense to me.

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If it's smart enough to argue with me over why I should trust my friend's corpse as it bubbles and gurgles and tells me it loves me and wants to be inside my armored casket, it should know that it needs to do a bit more than social engineering to get in.

orchid kettle
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Like I said, that's kinda why I don't think the Flood being anything more than the Flood is all that engaging

terse sage
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Extreme levels of gaslighting

empty bloom
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Gaslighting combined with Brethren Marker influence-lite.

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Though the flood doesn't necessarily care if starves anymore once it eats all the food, I wager.

orchid kettle
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I think it's more interesting if the Gravemind is legitimately of the mind that he's saving all life by fusing it together into one shared mindscape deal

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and therefore the sins of the Forerunners it keeps crying about it is how Halo was activated, and not the whole thing between Forerunners and Precursors

empty bloom
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I don't.

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But then, I'm not a big fan of SCP's, so maybe that's part of it.

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Because that interpretation is basically a stone's throw away from one of them.

orchid kettle
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i have never engaged with the SCP community people

empty bloom
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One of the ones I heard a good bit about basically loves everything and thinks it's saving all life by turning every single living creature, ever, into a single mass. It's a story.

orchid kettle
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I think that's just a common trope

empty bloom
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🤷‍♂️

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Still, I prefer bread and butter to bread or butter.

terse sage
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It's certainly an intresting idea

orchid kettle
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Of course I would have also preferred for the Flood to have been something naturally occurring over God dust

terse sage
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Yeah that part is kinda dumb

orchid kettle
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Feel like its very poetic if the highly advanced Forerunners were ultimately done in by a freak occurrence of nature even they couldn't control

terse sage
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In concept the idea of the Precursors taking revenge is interesting, but it didn't really work in execution

orchid kettle
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maybe Id be more into "This is our punishment for killing God" angle if we were actually the ones responsible for that original sin

empty bloom
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I don't mind it being the precursors having some buyer's remorse, but I do mind it being pet food.

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But then I also loathe the ancient humanaliens trope with a burning passion.

terse sage
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i don't get the thing about Humans being connected to the Forerunners genetically or something

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In halo 3 Guilty Spark says that "you are forerunner" which is confusing

empty bloom
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Oh god, here we go.

orchid kettle
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At least with the "Gravemind seeks to put an end to suffering by creating heaven within himself and absorbing all life" angle, that still relates to our protags on some level since any character would have to wrestle with that existential dread

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but I dunno, I don't feel anything when Im told that some other people did a bad thing

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which is kinda what annoys me about the Harbinger in Infinite

empty bloom
unique rune
orchid kettle
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like when the Harbinger tells us the backstory of the Endless, I can't help but wonder

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"Okay but what does this have to do with us?"

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the script said she has to punch Chief through a rock and I guess there's just no helping it

terse sage
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That too, it doesn't make sense why the Harbinger has beef with humans since it was the forerunners who imprisoned them

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Unless that got explained

vague scroll
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by inheriting the Forerunner Mantle, also implies inheriting their legacy, and their grudges - also we just happen to be in her way, and her ongoing issue with the Banished

empty bloom
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So she's taking out her anger on the nearest green dude.

orchid kettle
terse sage
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Still hate that Cortana died off-screen

orchid kettle
empty bloom
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Still love this concept art.

1600px-HINF_Concept_GothCortana.png
orchid kettle
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i didn't vote for this

vague scroll
empty bloom
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That's Infinite concept art, apparently.

vague scroll
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no return receipt

terse sage
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So cortana didn't actually take the mantle?

orchid kettle
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the mantle's not a physical thing

empty bloom
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Actually that was one of the funniest parts about people being angry about 5 Cortana's art direction.

vague scroll
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she claimed it, the Mantle is an idea/philosophy

crude gorge
empty bloom
vague scroll
empty bloom
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I suppose a brainmade ancilla is still a better claimant than most.

vague scroll
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Yonhet

orchid kettle
terse sage
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Also how did Cortana control the Prometheans?

empty bloom
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Domain or something, IDK

vague scroll
orchid kettle
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she had the Master Joystick

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🕹️

crude gorge
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She expanded her domain

vague scroll
orchid kettle
empty bloom
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I do like how some AI have apparently transferred themselves into Promethean Knight hulls.

orchid kettle
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I like the idea of the AI taunting you with a hundred different Soldier bodies

vague scroll
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I really appreciate they didn't roll up and die either, even if they're currently stuck in a niche corner of the universe right now

empty bloom
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Proceeds to Trazyn the Infinite everywhere

orchid kettle
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do you think an IP or MAC address for an AI is like their equivalent of a social security number

vague scroll
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(couldn't find a good gif of Ultron)

empty bloom
orchid kettle
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I wonder if that failsafe passcode Halsey embedded in a bunch of AIs still work

unique rune
vague scroll
empty bloom
orchid kettle
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which one

empty bloom
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Easily the second worst part of Spartan Ops.

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Undid Iridium

orchid kettle
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because it happened twice

empty bloom
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I don't really care which

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Both

orchid kettle
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in first strike she told Beowulf to blow up

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and he did

empty bloom
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That wasn't Spartan Ops

orchid kettle
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I assume, either that or the Domain just wasn't fixing like them like she said it was

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I thought the idea was that Cortana wasn't giving them the same level of access as a precaution

vague scroll
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I believe that is mentioned in the Encyclopedia to some extent but it was still rather vague on whether they did dip in, whether they got immortality or not

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at the very least with her death, their access to the Domain was lost

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this is what we call a single point of failure, Cortana needs to retake her network technology certification

orchid kettle
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At least this means I get to come up with my own planet that's under the stewardship of a rapidly degrading AI

vague scroll
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have you tried turning the AI on and off again?

autumn plaza
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Microsoft has all this FPS talent now. How about a Halo 6 where we play as the Banished and it ends at Cortana's death? Or better yet its Halo 2 style and we play through Shadows of Reach as Blue Team and it goes back and forth between Blue Team and the Banished with the Created as the primary enemy.

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Also build the game in Halo Infinite's engine so the Created enemies can get put straight into Forge

empty bloom
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Hey @stoic hamlet I think you misread the loreblurb a bit

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The Gallows datalink is helmet-mounted det charges, not reactor-mounted. If the Gallows datalink was successfully connected, that would mean that severance went off and the Spartan should be a headless corpse.

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So it reads more like the reactor failsafe is after the head failsafe.

stoic hamlet
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Which?

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Ah, yeah. I typed that up at work.

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Wasn’t thinking.

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Basically they’re headless but the flood still took control of the suit.

empty bloom
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Yeah, Reddit, sorry, should've specified

empty bloom
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It'd track considering the helmet is split down the middle and coated in a dozen rents and holes.

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IDK.

last anchor
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It's also possible the Gallows system also includes data feed termination and security protocols too alongside simply blowing up the head

terse lava
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I am wondering where people are getting the idea that the spartan's AI was compromised by the logic plague. Reading through the intel blurb it just appears to be default reporting anything.

vague scroll
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the "code injection" part seems to be the point of interest but fans are quick to reference the logic plague into any conversation involving the Flood and AI

terse lava
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Yeah, but not even that appears to change anything. The AI just seems keep giving a rather basic(though grim) report

spiral jewel
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Adding on to what Ado said...

Can the Personal AIs even get the LP even though they're just " presumably 6th or 7th generation Dumb AIs"?

terse lava
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They can, Silentium shows an interaction between a Forerunner fleet combating a flood fleet. The parasite-controlled ships are disabled, and monitors, alongside sentinels, are sent onboard to cleanse the vessels. These particular machines are stated to have been "proofed against Gravemind logic plague." They fall to it in quick succession

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The Forerunners are forced to just destroy the corrupted vessels, putting an end to any future attempts at reclaiming plague ships

spiral jewel
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Wow

last anchor
last anchor
fair hazel
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I really liked the intel

versed helm
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Does the Arbiter belong to any official faction group?

last anchor
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Swords of Sangheluos

unique rune
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I mean he leads the Swords of Sanghelios, so… I sure hope he belongs to the organization.

boreal bane
boreal bane
carmine sleet
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Haruspis must've been real excited to be on stage with all three of them

frozen timber
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For some reason i thought that plasma granades stick because they get so hot that it melts into things and sticks. Its a smart matter shell or something that causes the stick? That's a bit of a lame reality.

last anchor
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It's both. The smart matter shell identifies what it's hit, and if it designates that it's flesh or a vehicle it let's the plasma free.
That's why when they hit the ground, there's that whine up till the explosion. If it sticks it just detonates moments later

spiral jewel
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Do we have an exact date as to when the Site 22 incident occurred?

empty bloom
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Nope

steep ether
obsidian thistle
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Well the next Waypoint Chronicle is Flood themed!

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So hopefully soon we'll get an answer

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Hopefully before the first Operation!

stoic hamlet
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Is it? They could be doing down first. Then right.

wheat dome
last anchor
versed helm
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where was master chief during the battle of reach

pallid knoll
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he was taking a nap

dusky lava
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quick question about the books, do I need to read a bunch of books before reading the newest Halo book (Halo Outcasts), im interested in what Arby has been up to but the only Halo ive read is most of Fall of Reach

orchid kettle
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kinda yeah

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because Outcasts is kind of a sequel to Halo Oblivion

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which itself is a sequel to Silent Storm

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you can do it, you'll just have no idea what Netherop is or who these "outcasts" on it are

patent aspen
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Meh, I don’t think Oblivion would be mandatory.

gusty star
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I would say it’s more mandatory than Silent Storm

dusky lava
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Wait so what books would y’all suggest I read before it, just silent storm and outcasts?

patent aspen
autumn plaza
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Oblivion largely just sets up an unimportant to the plot mystery with jo real development while being kind of goofy. It does add to the Outcasts experience. It's far from mandatory.

solemn current
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what happened lasky after halo 4

pallid knoll
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he was in halo 5

wheat dome
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Do you need to read anything to understand halo: outcasts?

patent aspen
dusk jetty
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I’m reading outcasts and all I knew about silent storm and oblivion was the main plot and I got along pretty well.

orchid kettle
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So you're not really missing out on emotional beats that needed to be built up over the course of the story because the book just didn't have them in the first place

dusk jetty
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That was something I noticed as well, and I kind of like it. Allows for more flexibility in storytelling

orchid kettle
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I personally feel like it's an issue when part of the marketing of these books is: "Hey, check it out! A character from the games is in this one!"

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but when you don't learn anything about said character, and they don't really change

dusk jetty
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Like I doubt ||The banished|| would have a place in the story if they just kept going with what they did in silent storm

orchid kettle
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What's the point?

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Arby in Outcasts is pretty good, but I found Vale felt tacked on with very little to do

dusk jetty
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I think vale is just there so humanity has a stake in the whole fiasco

orchid kettle
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Sure, I just didn't find her engaging at all.

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Which I think is an issue when this is the third story she's appeared in

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and she's still shallow and one-dimensional

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||and making her dad some super obscure character from Halo's history isn't a replacement for characterization either.||

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maybe this is an issue with Spartans in general. I said before that the best way to characterize a, uh, character is to have them be forced out of their comfort zone

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and they need to have some personal motivation for participating in the events that unfold

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But a Spartan's comfort zone is being stuck in a dangerous situation surrounded by angry aliens who want them dead

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and nine times outta ten, their motivation is "I was ordered to do it"

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which isn't really that engaging.

stoic hamlet
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I think Breaking Strain and, ironically the Battle Born books give us great characterization of Spartan III’s. They’re a great foil to everyone else but they’re not the focal point or main character.

orchid kettle
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They work best when they're not the main character. Probably because its way easier to take a normal human, and flip their world upside down and watch how they struggle to adapt.

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But if you did that for Spartans, the act of flipping their world upside down would be, uh, like we see in the TV show

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where they question the UNSC and their purpose, and all that

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and that doesn't necessarily lead itself to the type of action Halo is known for

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Like in the show, fights just broke out near Chief and he won them

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and only really his tussle with the other Spartans is relevant to his character's emotional journey

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but if its like Forward Unto Dawn with a young Lasky, then him choosing to run towards a classic Halo style alien battle is relevant to his arc

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so you get to enjoy aliens getting blown up and the culmination of the character's story

stoic hamlet
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Yeah.

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I think you can have a Spartan as a main character, but the emotional beats will be very subdued. A lot of nuanced potential though.

terse sage
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Were the MAC guns orbiting Earth the same ones around Reach?

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Because the ones orbiting Reach seemed rather effective against Covenant ships while the ones at Earth weren't

dusk jetty
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I’d imagine we have more info about reach so they were actually the same level of effectiveness, we just hear more about how the super MACS just completely gut the covenant ships in reach

terse sage
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But in Halo 2 Cortana says that the Prophet of Regret's carrier just shrugged off several round

dusk jetty
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Because regret kind of just used other ships as shields because, you know, he’s a prophet, and the other carrier was actually destroyed

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He also kind of charged straight through and destroyed the Athens and Malta

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The sister stations to the Cairo

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So, Cortana probably isn’t wrong when she says that, but it certainly did not just tank a couple super Mac rounds

terse sage
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Yeah I was replaying Halo 2 earlier and I noticed that line from Cortana from the first time

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And the UNSC had 300 macs around Earth, and Reach had 20, but Earth fell much quicker

dusk jetty
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Earth didn’t fall the same way as reach did because of the simple stubborn resistance of humanity. Even after being bombarded by plasma for 24 hours, hood was still directing hit and run attacks

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And he also commanded from the Cairo so not all the Mac stations were destroyed

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(Albeit a damaged Cairo, but still)

terse sage
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Yeah fair

dusk jetty
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Reach meanwhile was simply and utterly overwhelmed

terse sage
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Also the bulk of the Covenant operations on Earth were directed at New Mombasa

dusk jetty
dusk jetty
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They could totally destroy earth but truth was obsessed with getting to the ark

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And hood wouldn’t go down without a fight

terse sage
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Was Hood the best UNSC navy commander besides Cole?

dusk jetty
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Not to mention ackerson(?) kept covenant reinforcements occupied on mars for awhile

dusk jetty
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Cole was also getting old if I recall correctly

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But both were excellent tacticians

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Battle of earth is a part of halo lore I wished was covered a little more

terse sage
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Me too

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One of the final and largest battles of the Human-Covenant War, the fight for Humanity's capital and homeworld, yet we know only a little about it

dusk jetty
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We know the general timeline

unique rune
void orchid
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does the litch still fire the same beam as the scarab or does it fire a less potent beam.

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also is it still classified as a drop ship in the banished

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or is it an assult one now?

long notch
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I'm looking for saddest most tragic moments in the halo lore, anyone who knows or would like to share any particular book or story? one that come my mind on top of my head is the story of the 300 spartans in the ghost of onyx in the alpha company if i remember correctly

dusk jetty
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Sams sacrifice off the top of my head

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Noble teams deaths are all poetic to a degree

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The fate of the truth and reconciliation maybe

long notch
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yeah noble team was ''Ironic'' or like you said ''poetic'' because they die as their personalities

dusk jetty
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Jacob Keyes death

long notch
dusk jetty
long notch
dusk jetty
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Ok, I’ll mark as spoiler just in case

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Basically ||A odst major captures private Jenkins, a soldier who had served with Johnson since harvest, who was infected by the flood, and decides to take him back to earth. The remnants of the unsc forces from the POA storm the Truth and Reconciliation, eradicate most of the flood and covenant aboard, and take off. Someone, can’t remember who, discovered that Silva is taking infected Jenkins back to earth, objects, but is dismissed. Jenkins tells her to destroy the ship, because he can hear flood forms hiding in the ship, and she destroys the engines and the ship blows up, killing everyone on board.||

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This obviously doesn’t include a couple people like Chief and Johnson

long notch
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ooof still that's tragic

dusk jetty
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It was necessary, ||Silva would destroy humanity for some ONI glory if it wasn’t for her||

long notch
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she worked for ||ONI?||

dusk jetty
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No, Silva would’ve ||given Jenkins to oni had this odst not interfered||

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And uh, ||Oni|| isn’t the most ethical organization to put it lightly

long notch
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haha whaaa , naah they're the nicest guys around , looking after kids and whatnot 😂

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basically nanies

dusk jetty
#

Tbf it’s possible those kids would’ve died without oni/Halsey in a weird twist

long notch
#

that's so true it hurts

#

never thought about that

dusk jetty
#

It’s touched on in glasslands

long notch
#

countless colonies and planets would've been gone

dusk jetty
#

Speaking of Halsey, her and Miranda’s relationship is tragic

long notch
#

have you read the ghost of onyx?

dusk jetty
stoic hamlet
long notch
# dusk jetty Yes, loved it a lot

if you were to say , which armor would best fit the describtions from the book? would you say the armor looked like in halo reach? or more like halo 3?

#

i believe there was mostly spartans 3

stoic hamlet
long notch
dusk jetty
#

Granted spi is an mcc addition but still

long notch
#

i see, so nothing that would look like halo reach armor?

dusk jetty
#

No, no mark v b

stoic hamlet
#

SPI looks real jank though, not accurate.

long notch
#

Mirage in halo infinite maybe?

dusk jetty
long notch
#

the core

stoic hamlet
#

Even that’s not accurate.

dusk jetty
#

No, even then

long notch
#

hmm

#

how so?

dusk jetty
#

The one classic spi helmet still looks jank

stoic hamlet
long notch
#

hmm i see what you mean, but i'd say imo, that mirage does get pretty close to that

#

just slightly updated

dusk jetty
#

Sort of

stoic hamlet
#

It’s missing/changed a lot of key aspects.

long notch
#

such as?

dusk jetty
#

No built in camo, mjolnir compatible, and able to be worn by non augmented personal to name a few

stoic hamlet
#

The base MIRAGE helmet for example isn’t anywhere close despite sharing the name. The more accurate depiction is VELES.

#

What you’d likely see is a lot of supplemental attachments, obviously, which art struggles/never actually depicts.

long notch
#

veles oh yeah

stoic hamlet
#

But that’s true of everything.

dusk jetty
#

Spi hasn’t ever been fully implemented in proper form

#

The closest you could get is active camo with mirage wearing the veles helmet

terse sage
stoic hamlet
#

So it kinda makes sense.

dusk jetty
#

That’s very basic though

terse sage
#

What was their last interaction?

long notch
stoic hamlet
long notch
stoic hamlet
dusk jetty
#

I think the last official time they saw each other was when Miranda was 6?

#

And their last interaction ever was Miranda inviting Halsey to her promotion ceremony

long notch
dusk jetty
#

Which of course, Halsey promptly ran away with Kelly to onyx! What a great mother!

stoic hamlet
dusk jetty
#

Bush tread disruptive is the name btw, love that coating

stoic hamlet
long notch
#

grey ish green got it

steel stone
#

To be honest mirage was great and wished it was in Halo Infinite

#

Only critiques I had about Mirage in halo 3 was the shoulders were too small and I used EVA with them. Lastly where the hell is the knife on the back accessory? Other than that its solid really.

stoic hamlet
steel stone
long notch
#

wait, was operation torpedo different event to operation Prometheus?

#

in ghost of onyx

patent aspen
long notch
stoic hamlet
#

598, but 600 exactly if we include wounded.

patent aspen
long notch
#

didn't one of em stop talking?

stoic hamlet
long notch
#

trauma

long notch
stoic hamlet
#

Tom was heavily burned, and Lucy suffered some internal injuries, from memory.

terse sage
#

Each of the Spartan 3 classes were 300 large right?

unique rune
#

Alpha and Beta were 300, Gamma was 330

terse sage
#

Then how do teams like Noble Team exist if 300 spartans from Alpha company died on operation prometheus?

unique rune
#

Their members were pulled before the operations so I think we're supposed to assume that Prometheus and Torpedo were done with less than 300 Spartans each.

#

Or no, ignore that:

300 Spartans (the entirety of the final roster of Alpha Company) participated in Operation: PROMETHEUS. Of the 197 who did not form Alpha Company, some were ostensibly extracted to form separate special forces teams and the remainder washed out.

terse sage
#

So the ones in groups like Noble team were picked out before the operation happened

unique rune
#

Well before those operations

terse sage
#

What made them stand out?

#

Just being above-average at what they do?

unique rune
#

Supposedly

empty bloom
#

Some arbitrary measure concocted by Deep Winter and Kurt.

patent aspen
# terse sage Each of the Spartan 3 classes were 300 large right?

From “Lessons Learned” —

Lucy had lost her voice for seven years at one point—a souvenir of being one of the only two survivors (along with Tom) of Operation: TORPEDO, a battle with the Covenant that had all but wiped out the entire Beta Company of Spartan-IIIs. **They’d lost 298 of their brothers and sisters to that horrible meat grinder that day. **

And, shortly after:

Two men struggled with each other out there, exposed to raw space but too intent on murder to worry about it. One of them was a blond-haired Spartan recruit Tom remembered hollering at just a few days ago. Schein, he thought.

The other was Spartan Jun-A266. Like Tom and Lucy, Jun had been part of the SPARTAN-III’s Beta Company, but he’d been pulled out by Command for another mission prior to Operation: TORPEDO.

This basically says there were more than 300 augmentees, rather than fewer in the operations. Also, Forbeck thinks Jun-A266 was a part of Beta, which is kinda lol.

stoic hamlet
#

But yeah the reasons seem arbitrary. Deep Winter came up with the idea of “better genetics” but that doesn’t seem to actually be a factor, just an excuse he used to get them reassigned.

Rosenda seems to think it was due to their differing skill sets and specializations. More like dumb luck than anything else, which is probably how they all saw it.

dry musk
#

With the exception of Spartans how come humans are so short and tiny in comparison to the Covenant. Even grunts are like up to human shoulder height and more stocky to boot

#

The Brutes, Hunters and Elites tower over the humans

stoic hamlet
unique rune
#

They just happened to evolve that way

dry musk
#

Then how come humans managed to fight them evenly. When they physically can't match up

unique rune
#

A gun does not care about how tall or muscular you are

dry musk
#

Yeah, but then cqc must be suicide against the covenant

#

Like going up against yao ming in a fight

#

or the mountain

unique rune
#

Which is why guns exist to minimize close-quarters engagements

#

If you let Sangheili or Jiralhanae get up close and personal, yeah, you're mincemeat, but the UNSC's standard issue rifles all have effective ranges of several hundred meters

stoic hamlet
#

^^^ the games’ are t indicative of the actual lore. Fights would play out at much longer ranges.

still bay
#

There are other games with mods that allow you to experience what engagements in the books might be like. but yes CQC with Gorillas and Gators gonna get you killed.

last anchor
#

I'll never forgive 343 for not adding in an SPI armor kit to Mirage.
Theres still time, admittedly, and they've done stuff with the flood armor from this season but...come on.
We were so close to greatness...

last anchor
still bay
#

I mean, technically, Mirage is just a new version of SPI. Like going from MkV to MkVI

last anchor
#

Yeah, but thats like saying MK VII is a new version of MK V.

still bay
#

Big aliens require big shotgun shells

last anchor
#

They could have done it and they were real close but they didn't.

#

Again, we have time. Maybe that'll be something they add later on.

#

The Rusalka armor set this season gives me hope

still bay
#

Some of the pieces of Mirage do take inspiration from the OG SPI, like the arm attachment thats all big and bulky. Also, how is mirage jumping 2 generations?

last anchor
#

Im just using it as an example. We have MK VII in the game but also MK V as another core.
So theres not really a reason for there not to be previous versions of Mirage and its subsets in the armor set.

#

Insperation is good, but Ive waited since I saw the cover of Ghosts of Onyx to wear that exact same armor so...

stoic hamlet
still bay
#

Fair, but even if they added in additional pieces to Mirage it would just take inspiration from, not actually be.

#

From everything Ive seen Mirage fits the same purpose as SPI Lore wise, so an additional core would need to be added, similarly to how MkV(B) was added

stoic hamlet
stoic hamlet
still bay
#

Same, and I see the issue of clipping, its bulky as all hell

#

Learning time

stoic hamlet
#

@still bay

last anchor
#

You have all the rest, then unique pieces for it that make it the cover accurate SPI

stoic hamlet
#

I do want actual SPI, but I also want what we get from the new Mirage core.

#

Like the chestplate add in. And the sensor.

#

Really, I’m more annoyed not a single helmet actually references SPI, more than anything.

last anchor
#

Theres some really nice looking chest peices in it honestly. I like em more than I do some of the MK VII stuff.

stoic hamlet
#

It feels weirdly dissonant. Which is I think the oddest thing.

last anchor
#

We are getting pilot though as we saw in the trailer, so theres that.

#

Actually theres...been a distinct lack of mentions of the S-IIIs outside of Nylunds books.

#

Kurt hasnt been mentioned outside of the encylopedia. Not even in the book set where he was buried

#

Or at least his grave is in

still bay
#

Ah, so Mirage sort of incorporates the undersuit of the Mjolnir system as well as power (maybe) with the actual armor being more in line with Mjolnir class systems?

#

While also being cheap to make and deploy

stoic hamlet
#

It’s like, weirdly SPI but not.

Like, it was billed as the SPI homage by 343, but the mentions are so sparse it may as well be it’s own unique thing.

still bay
#

Its a half and half

last anchor
#

Just reference it already 343, you know we want it
Then again it took them till this game to give us all of the knives so

stoic hamlet
#

It’s especially odd because Mirage isn’t SPI at all.

It’s PAA.

No mention of it’s cloaking systems, thermal invisibility, etc.

It’s like someone saw what it looked like, made an inaccurate copy, and ditched everything that made it unique.

For the record, I’m not saying we should see those things in gameplay, but like… not even a mention? Lol.

#

It’d be like making an aircraft carrier in a warships game but…not giving it any aircraft.

#

Or a bomber but no bombers.

#

It’s just…wild, lol.

last anchor
#

It's cheaper MJLONIR I guess

still bay
#

For me I would want more things added that give that practical militaristic feel that the novels and previous games give.

Like this new shoulder for Rakshasa with the plasma grenades, (win) make more things like this across all cores that show where the ammo is stored lol

I was always bothered by the though of you pull ten magazines out of your butt, so I am happy that we have some stuff to basically show where things are stored

last anchor
#

Rakshasas pretty good for that honestly

still bay
#

Thats why its my favorite core

#

i would use MkVII more if i had similar options

#

That and more actual camo pattern type coatings for various environments. A spartan covered in gold and neon green does not say "Deadly killing Machine" and really pulls me out when I see it.

#

This isnt fortnight...

stoic hamlet
#

That’s my biggest issue, really.

still bay
#

Why do you want it?

stoic hamlet
#

It was billed as an homage to SPI and Ghosts of Onyx.

But over the years we’ve gotten more visual references of SPI, that are apparently supposed to be actual variants. But these are never elaborated on, never explained.

Mirage was a way to explain SPI as a concept, as a core. Like what we see with Mark V[B], where a lot of its armour pieces explain how the UNSC adapted during the war, Mirage was our chance to get that with SPI.

But then we got what we got.

#

We’re told X but get Y.

#

And Y is good

still bay
#

But its not X

stoic hamlet
#

But we were told we’d get X, yeah.

still bay
#

Yeah thats fair, I just want my spartan to look and feel as deadly as they did in the books. Not something created by a 10 year old

stoic hamlet
#

As Orca said, a lot of us have been waiting a long time for this.

Fun fact, did you know Mirage (as SPI) was the first look at non “Mark” armour? And the cover of Ghosts of Onyx predates the community even knowing about armour customization as a concept by about a year and a half?

When EVA was first revealed, people thought it was SPI.

#

That’s how old this is.

still bay
#

I remember that, people were super excited and then went wth lol

stoic hamlet
#

Yup.

still bay
#

I did too

stoic hamlet
#

and now people think it’s an “EVA clone”.

still bay
#

Gross, different roles, different types

stoic hamlet
#

I mean aesthetically though. Not lorewise.

#

When the opposite is true.

still bay
#

right

last anchor
#

I wanted it to be SPI. LOL

#

Was so disappointed when it wasn't

soft pasture
#

Are ONI really that evil? just askin

empty bloom
#

ONI are effectively an arguably necessary evil, and are the morally darkest segment of the UNSC for a reason.

#

They're not really 'antagonist of the next game' evil like people seem to want to think though.

soft pasture
#

Hmm yea i can see it, i personally think the only good they did was against sangheilios but kinda of

stoic hamlet
#

They’re the lost and the damned. The “sell our souls for a better tomorrow”.

#

Good people forced to do terrible things.

soft pasture
#

I see sometimes in reddit places like r/HaloStory where they hate oni alot (probably cuz they harmed their stupid alien dino species) and suggest them to become an enemy in a game or something

#

And yeah that will never happen LOL

stoic hamlet
#

Part of it is because ONI were/are flanderized heavily in newer media. There’s very little nuance to them in 343’s media. They’re often intentionally antagonistic and malicious, given power far beyond what the original lore implied they have.

Whereas, under Nylund and Staten, they’re much more grey. Honestly they’re almost pitiable as characters. More sympathetic.

soft pasture
#

That seems kinda of bad writing....... tbh.... Why not respect the og oni?

stoic hamlet
#

Different narrative goals.

soft pasture
#

And yea i can see it, is why we help ONI on halo reach and ODST but we dont on post games or just barely

stoic hamlet
#

ONI were always sort of antagonistic, but never outright malicious.

Part of it is also that they say the same things as the originals but it often comes off as posturing, without the same meaning. It’s smugness versus original jaded cynicism.

soft pasture
#

Well idk, maybe with that style of narrative of oni are they trying to cook something? or just big big evil space cia aahhhh

stoic hamlet
#

It seems like the latter.

The issue is even if they’re trying to cook something, it’ll still lack the proper nuance.

It’ll feel contrived and needless.

soft pasture
#

Yeah i can see it

stoic hamlet
#

The only way to make an ONI bad plot work is to have them be actually kind of right or justified, have an actual sort of moral greyness.

But Halo really struggles with this.

soft pasture
#

Hmm yea the only thing justified i saw was starting the civil war on sangheilios tbh

#

Idk why people hate that part, it seems cool keep elites at check

patent aspen
#

I was very confused by Halo 5 giving the Created a justified, semi-righteous and morally gray objective only to repeatedly declare that it’s actually just evil

soft pasture
#

Wait what happened with the created on halo 5 couldnt play it yet

patent aspen
#

The morally ambiguous plan:

Cortana: "The cure for rampancy I've found means AIs can be immortal. That kind of lifespan allows for long-term planning just like the Forerunners were capable of. AIs can assume the Forerunners' Mantle of Responsibility. And once there is peace, we can focus on poverty, hunger, illness... But Warden believes some will resist our help. And he's afraid you're one of them."

Fred: "Sounds great. I don't get why anyone's expecting resistance."

#

The game subsequently just makes them pure evil

stoic hamlet
soft pasture
#

I see this so if they go for another route to make oni morally gray it should been done in a game that isnt a fps or something

stoic hamlet
#

You can do it in an FPS. Just not necessarily a Halo styled one. It would need to play differently.

soft pasture
#

Yea

stoic hamlet
#

But yeah, actually, thinking on it The Wounded is the perfect episode as the example. (Spoilers, but I mean, it’s over 30 years old at this point)

||The episode centres on the Enterprise being tasked to track down another ship that’s seemingly gone rogue. The Federation’s just come out of a war with another power, Cardassia, and the captain of this ship, Maxwell, was deeply traumatized during the fighting, bearing witness to the massacre of civilians by the Cardassians.||

||To try and help bring the captain in without violence, the captain of the Enterprise, Picard has one of his men, a Chief Petty Officer named O’Brien who served with Maxwell and was witness to that same massacre, try and talk him down.||

||Maxwell reveals heMs targeting Cardassian ships because they’re rearming for another war… but offers no proof. Many of the ships he’s targeted were also carrying Cardassian civilians.||

||Things come to a head, so O’Brien boards Maxwell’s ship to talk one on one, and the two reminisce about their wartime experiences. They sing a song together that was sung by a friend killed in action at the massacre, and you get the impression that Maxwell just can’t let go of the past, what he’s seen. What he had to do.||

||Maxwell is eventually talked down and surrenders, but O’Brien stands up for him, and it’s clear that had Maxwell been acting lawfully and not on his own O’Brien would have gladly joined him.||

||At the end of the episode (and in the next series we learn that Maxwell was right about everything.||

#

This is basically the only way to do a proper “ONI bad” plotline, IMO.

empty bloom
# stoic hamlet Basically the only way to do ONI as the antagonists would be to make them morall...

I still don't think that Halo ever actually did them wrong in the Kilo 5 trilogy.

Like, it makes sense for them to want, really badly, to keep the Sangheili on the back foot come hell or high water, because they were absolutely correct about believing the elites still had a significant number of anti-human rhetoric behind them.

Hell, before Xytan got turned back into star dust, he likely would've been in Thel's shoes but even more beloved-and unfortunately for humanity, he still hated them.

#

They were absolutely correct in wanting Halsey under strict lock and key as much as possible, because the second they let one pin go out of place, Halsey picked the rest and nearly cost the UNSC its most expensive not-quite-boondoggle with her own holier-and-smarter-than-thou egotist power trip.

#

They were absolutely correct in wanting to figure out more about how the flood ticked on sentients, because that's really the best way to really learn how that sort of persistent infestation works-unfortunately for the captured Sangheili.

#

All three of the ways they went about handling these situations were morally in the black and uncomfortable in concept, but they weren't necessarily the literal wrong way to go about them-they're things that could be successfully argued as being in favor of a greater good.

versed helm
#

Does the covenant still exist during Halo Infinite (as in covenant remnants that still believe in the religion)?

#

or are they all gone

carmine sleet
#

There are still Covenant remnants but none are anywhere near as big as Jul's or as big as the Banished are

#

Like, just because we saw one get defeated in Halo 5, doesn't mean all are gone

#

We don't know what Sali 'Nyon's faction is planning currently but we know they're out there

orchid kettle
#

but its like, flipped for some reason in Kilo-5

#

where they're arming their enemies and placing their allies in danger

#

like hey, if you can get 'Telcam, the leader of a prominent anti-human terrorist cell alone in a room to trade for weapons

#

why don't you just kill him

#

and of course, in-universe, ONI weren't correct

#

Because they accidentally made Jul 'Mdama

carmine sleet
#

So you're saying you would remove the anti human part of 'Telcam and just had it where he really hated what Arbiter was planning for the Elites

orchid kettle
#

I probably just wouldn't have that plotline at all since Jul ultimately goes nowhere, or at the very least, have the Covenant Remnant clearly in denial about the falsehoods of the Covenant because they don't or can't believe that they've been complacent in one of the greatest war crimes in history

#

and thats why they're opposed to Arby because Arby recognizes that fact and is trying to move past that while the Remnant desperately cling to the old way

#

but of course, it seems more in character for Covenant Loyalists to be Brutes, but Im fine with the idea that Arby has to fight with and convince his own kind

empty bloom
dusk jetty
#

Do we know if any Gamma company III’s received augmentations and Mjolnir besides the ferrets?

orchid kettle
#

despite only hearing about the Covenant like forty years ago

#

at least that's what we're told in Shadow of Intent

dusk jetty
#

I mean Tartarus refused to even consider that the prophets were wrong despite being told by spark himself

orchid kettle
#

that as new converts they had super faith, while the Sangheili's faith wavered

#

which you'd think would be the reverse, but whatever

dusk jetty
#

The sangheili also were taking note of how much of fighters humans were so I think telling them that the prophets were wrong may not have been as big as a shock as it is to the brutes

orchid kettle
empty bloom
#

Where a new faith adherent is even more unshakeable in their faith than someone born into it

#

... Though, most brutes are also young enough to have been born into the Covenant, with Escharum being the last of the old generation last I checked

dusk jetty
orchid kettle
dusk jetty
#

He was also on harvest, he saw that humans were willing to be peaceful

#

They completely weren’t deranged monsters

empty bloom
#

Brutes don't seem to have all that big of a crap to give about decorum, pomp, circumstance, or any of that. So you could also take that as him being a brute.

#

Brutes tend towards savagery, and they tend to die savagely for it.

orchid kettle
#

who appears to be an oddity rather than the rule

#

but thats just the vibe I got

stoic hamlet
empty bloom
#

I think MIA means the brain augs?

dusk jetty
#

Yes, the illegal stuff

#

Did everyone in gamma have that to our knowledge?

empty bloom
#

Yeppers

#

Honestly, I don't think Kurt deserves much respect for continuing what could easily be construed as a cycle of abuse.

dusk jetty
#

I honestly I think it was unnecessary

#

You already have some powerful enhanced individuals, giving them even more power that destabilizes their personality and in the long run would actually be a detriment was selfish of Kurt and only to ease his conscious

#

Ironic really considering that Halsey did the same thing with her flash clones

empty bloom
#

It's likely also a lot easier for Kurt to choke down the monstrous things he's doing if they have no family to crush anymore.

dusk jetty
#

I doubt kurt had the foresight to see this but it’s especially egregious considering that 300 Spartans eventually couldn’t be cleared after the war of course for combat because they were so unstable

#

Huge waste of resources

empty bloom
#

Tbf, it's not like he had any reason to believe they wouldn't be spent like the other 600 lives in a bloody last ditch effort.

#

Honestly, I think of Kurt as one of the most morally dark characters in Halo. He might honestly be as bad as Halsey for it.

stoic hamlet
#

They definitely could be cleared, and the UNSC doesn’t actually seem to mind the issues.

With suits like WAR MASTER, ACHILLES, and VIPER all basically doing the same thing to anyone who wears them, with WAR MASTER directly compared to Gamma Company’s augmentations.

empty bloom
#

Hell, he might be as bad as Ackerson.

stoic hamlet
#

I feel like trying to scale them devalues a lot of their respective characters.

empty bloom
#

It does, but I'm judging acts in this case.

#

I tend to view the creation of IIs and IIIs as proverbial deals with the devil.

stoic hamlet
#

I mean they are, really.

dusk jetty
#

It does do well to bear in mind that in times of desperation people have always done abominable things

empty bloom
#

Even participating in any capacity whatsoever damns you in degrees.

#

Short of like, you make MJOLNIR or SPI.

#

Or helped make it.

#

Because that's not the same as clubbing a kid in the head after he corrects what you're calling him.

stoic hamlet
# dusk jetty You already have some powerful enhanced individuals, giving them even more power...

Circling back to this though, it wasn’t to ease his conscious. It was for them, what he thought was best for them. He was by that point a broken man who’d raised three successive generations of children, only to have the first two die in agonizing ways that he believed were his fault (but weren’t).

Definitely selfish, but understandable why he’d come to that conclusion based on his mindset.

last anchor
#

The abused continue the abuse "for their own good"

stoic hamlet
#

He was basically torturing himself every day. IIRC the book notes he only had something like two hours of sleep when Gamma were being augmented… and they were augmented for something like three days.

stoic hamlet
empty bloom
#

So long as they're not forgiven because they consciously knew they were doing an act of evil.

stoic hamlet
#

I don’t think any of them forgive themselves, lol.

empty bloom
#

I actually liked how Mendez actually seems like he was thoroughly broken and disgusted with himself over the IIs and IIIs, for example.

stoic hamlet
#

All of the “big three” hated themselves.

empty bloom
#

I gotta respect Ackerson for doing it all without a hint of remorse.

dusk jetty
#

It was all about him until the end

stoic hamlet
#

I think he was remorseful. Disgusted with himself at several points.

#

He just hid it better than others.

empty bloom
#

Even the one life he specifically tried to save foiled his plans by becoming a vector for ordinance.

#

Which I always thought was fitting.

#

(Uprising, his brother)

#

I think Uprising is a little slept on as a comic tbh, it kind of establishes that a lot of people's beliefs regarding how the UEG's civilians are treated and the environment they work under is likely wrong. Considering Rowan(?) is openly questioning the very existence of the Covenant as anything more than a rumor to prop up the MIC.

#

Haven't got a damn clue about what the titular uprising was, though.

#

Oh btw @scarlet hinge are you tracking the new Banished vessel seen on the blamite map?

scarlet hinge
#

Which new one?

#

there's karves, but they're upside down lol

#

And a dreadnought and a siege hauler

#

plus low poly phantoms

empty bloom
#

Oh, was that what they were?

carmine sleet
empty bloom
#

I saw a bunch of people freaking out about a new one on Halostory.

scarlet hinge
#

oh lol

#

Yeah, there's a pic on the karve wiki page; i'd link it but i'm about to see a concert

#

It's the pic from the encyclopedia as a particle sprite, but upside down

#

The covenant cruisers are also CRS cruisers from H4 because they're also just a render from a guy's portfolio they cut out

empty bloom
#

oughf

carmine sleet
#

Is there a good picture of the ship battle? I've kinda been more focused on not dying every time I've played Prism

scarlet hinge
#

Or type Category:Images of Prism in the search bar on the site

carmine sleet
#

Roger that

scarlet hinge
#

Some of the other guys broke map boundaries to get upclose pics

scarlet hinge
carmine sleet
#

Oh nice, those are Zanars

scarlet hinge
#

yeee

#

On the Zanar page we have the source render

carmine sleet
#

Little sad they aren't recoloured in SOS colours but I can get why since they're such a tiny detail on the map

scarlet hinge
#

Yeah

empty bloom
scarlet hinge
#

I'm excited to do a SoS colorset for SoTP, now we have the sword frigate as reference

empty bloom
#

Because Jul's son took up the sword after his father died.

scarlet hinge
#

I believe the maps blog page does say it's Banished v. Swords

empty bloom
#

Ah.

carmine sleet
#

Yeah I was about to say

empty bloom
#

Less neat of a twist.

carmine sleet
#

If they wanna update the skybox to include some more SOS ships of Covenant and Sangheli in origin, I wouldn't mind

scarlet hinge
#

SCC sword frigates pls

empty bloom
#

BRING BACK THE BRIGANTINES

last anchor
#

Put effort into your backgrounds on your maps 343. PLEASE

scarlet hinge
#

They did

boreal bane
#

glares hard at Prism

#

I feel like they did

last anchor
#

Skybox specifically

#

But then again no ones gonna be looking out in the middle of a game so

carmine sleet
#

I just think they're neat

steel stone
#

Speaking of backgrounds what is happening here? Juls covenant is really screwing this city

#

Are they attacking Earth during Halo 4?

honest idol
#

Been out of the loop for a while, have we have any new lore about Monitors over the last year or two?

empty bloom
steel stone
steel stone
last anchor
#

Human Covenant War

honest idol
#

Ahh so that's what they were, I wondered why the frames were so drastically different. Thanks lol

steel stone
# last anchor Human Covenant War

That cant be true because the covenant have blue lights on their ships. Ships in that background have green lights, thats how theyhad Juls faction in Halo 4

empty bloom
#

Same reason post HCW Covvie armor and Mark VI MOD were in 4's opening cutscene and why H5's Phantom was in Halo Infinite's trailers.

last anchor
#

And the same reason we have the Krave from the Encylopedia over Suban

steel stone
#

Or nano machines or something

empty bloom
#

Nano machines originated as a from-the-hip response at a panel.

#

Now it's basically how modern MJOLNIR is capable of limited self repair.

last anchor
#

Shows up as medicinal aid too

#

It works though since with how fast tech has accelerated in between 2001 and now, its entirely believable

steel stone
#

Thats crazy so that nano stuff altered Chief's armor as well?

#

Thats what Frank says I think I get it

empty bloom
steel stone
#

Boy did that backfire

empty bloom
#

Eh.

stoic hamlet
empty bloom
#

I view 4/5 as actually visually standing out amongst much of its competition in spite of detractor's statements.

#

Most detractions were made in bad faith.

honest idol
#

Halo 4 suffers a little bit nowadays, but I remember for the time everyone I knew was amazed they got something so visually stunning onto X360

steel stone
honest idol
#

The Halsey interro sequence?

steel stone
empty bloom
steel stone
#

My reaction was, ok this is odd

empty bloom
#

Halsey was always a monster, and her being arrested and interrogated was always a foregone conclusion.

#

The scenes following are an abstraction of the events of the HCW.

stoic hamlet
#

She’s always been a terrible person, yeah.

And yeah.

empty bloom
#

Anyone confused by that wasn't really that invested in the lore.

orchid kettle
honest idol
#

I like it, it's really packed with subtle symbolism. The pods that the children are inside are shaped and styled as mjolnir helmets, which shows us a feeling of being trapped into the armor and service.

This tied in with the final cutscene of John having his armor removed, after the death of Cortana brings a pause, return and realisation of humanity which allows him to escape the armor

last anchor
stoic hamlet
#

Not shocking really.

empty bloom
last anchor
#

Same with their responses to the opening.

steel stone
#

Halo 4 I dont where to begin with that hot mess

orchid kettle
#

I mean, the Halsey scene is pretty weird for Halsey's whole speech at the end, about the guy who's mysteriously not naval intelligence like all the people before, or how the UNSC is somehow "underestimating" Chief

last anchor
#

Do we know hes not ONI?

#

Most ONI people dont USUALLY go around with large tags reading "hi Im from Naval Intelligence"

orchid kettle
#

I also will always point out how for as much as Halo 4 insists that Chief is the real machine and he's gotta be more human

#

That he doesn't really do anything that inhuman

#

at least not in Halo 4 itself

stoic hamlet
steel stone
#

I do like the ONI guy from the Halo 4 intro it really had that really cool mystery, who was he?

orchid kettle
#

The guy's not, super antisocial, he clearly cares about Cortana, he doesn't listen to Del Rio blindly and is willing to disobey him for Cortana's sake

#

the mystery guy pops off at Halsey about how Chief is fundamentally broken

#

but like

#

how

#

you cant just say a character is one way

#

but then never have them act that way

steel stone
#

Humanizing Chief I never understood, he did do human stuff in the games, even has fun moments in Halo 1, 2 and 3

honest idol
empty bloom
#

But alas

honest idol
#

And as for not being ONI, I dunno, maybe he was Spartan Corps and this was supposed to acknowledge the separation

empty bloom
#

Plot twist, it was supposed to be Jun

#

And she just never saw Jun's face until then

honest idol
#

Dun dun dun

orchid kettle
#

Its just, one you dont have that storyline anymore

#

maybe don't have the big dramatic speech in your intro

#

I guess you cant when you already paid thousands of dollars for the 3D animation

empty bloom
#

But they paid for the cool VA speech

#

I actually liked the Intro to Halo 5

#

The part where Halsey talks

#

Even if it ultimately doesn't actually mean much in regards to Halsey saying they'll "ask you to kill us both"

honest idol
#

We still have lots of it, we just lost some of the Spartan ties. Which to be fair, we can start to explore ourselves with a little reflection. It sucks but to say it's not there anymore is a bit of a falsehood when we know it's there

empty bloom
#

Then again, I also like Halsey being wrong sometimes.

#

Because characters who are always right suck.

steel stone
#

Halo 5s intro was very odd the Promeaths and covies were teaming up together in Halo 4 but seem to be against each other

orchid kettle
#

But its not a story.

honest idol
#

That's one of the big things I want to explore more with Halo, identifying and allowing the existence of an unreliable narrator

honest idol
empty bloom
orchid kettle
steel stone
empty bloom
#

They did.

orchid kettle
#

What gets me is how infrequently both Halo 4 and 5 had Covenant and Prometheans in the same space together

empty bloom
#

Cortana had already taken control of the Prometheans by that point, and Cortana was trying to secure loose ends.

#

(Halsey, who Cortana knew had seen her)

steel stone
honest idol
empty bloom
# steel stone When did they?

Which is both stated in the audio logs on Osiris and it's made more clear as the story reaches the reveals and conclusions.

orchid kettle
#

It's kinda generous to say that the storyline still exists at all. Evidence exists that it once did in earlier drafts, in terms of dialogue that goes nowhere and cut lines.

#

But dialogue that goes nowhere isn't a story.

empty bloom
#

If you didn't understand what happened on Osiris by the end of Genesis, I'm very... Confused for you.

steel stone
orchid kettle
#

A story has a beginning middle and end.

#

Not just a singular idea, and nothing else.

empty bloom
#

It's funny that Halo 4 and 5 both would've benefitted immensely by a year or two extra in the oven.

#

Force less plot pruning and improve launch visuals and content.

steel stone
#

Halo 4 and 5 really lack replay value honestly, so much doing the same thing

stoic hamlet
#

I mean even if the storyline existed, what sort of story would it be?

“Hey Master Chief these are new Spartans, they’re here to replace you.”

“Awesome, we need all the help we can get.”

That’s it, lol.

orchid kettle
#

Yeah, Chief himself doesn't even really comment on the IV's existence

empty bloom
#

Chief's kind of lame because he's a very practical person when it comes to things like that.

orchid kettle
#

if he does, I dont think its even really in a conflicted matter

stoic hamlet
honest idol
#

I think the way that I see it we have all the symbology that is required to make the hook to Spartans with the replacement themes. Symbology is always an interpretive reading of text, it's just as possible to reach a completely different conclusion.

What should be known as that there was intent to express these ideas onto Spartans, and there was a very clear enantiomorphic relationship between Chief and Cortana as the machine and the human.

Because of this relationship anything that apply to Cortana can be perceived as applying to Chief as well.

steel stone
empty bloom
#

There's not a single non-contrived reason he'd hate IVs, because he's well aware of the cost of war and knows his kind needed reinforcements.

stoic hamlet
stoic hamlet
empty bloom
orchid kettle
#

"Ah sweet, more Spartans! Nice!"

stoic hamlet
#

Pretty much.

#

They’re aware of and understand the need for more of them.

orchid kettle
#

until, of course, the orphans started dying horribly by the truckload

empty bloom
#

There's an audio log where Chief's entire reception to being told to do a thing becomes almost angry at the suggestion that Locke could do it, because Halsey uses Locke's name as a sort of manipulation?

#

Which, even after Chief seems a little annoyed that Locke cracked his visor in 5, you'd think he wouldn't have held a grudge against Locke for literally doing his job by the events of Infinite.

orchid kettle
steel stone
#

If there were no Spartan 4s and we just got Spartan 3s and 2s teaming up on Infinity how much would change?

#

Im talking if we never got 4s

empty bloom
#

Well, you'd have less Spartans. A lot less.

#

I likely wouldn't be here talking about Spartans because frankly, I'm really mostly here for IVs doing cool stuff.

stoic hamlet
orchid kettle
#

The only thing that sounds like Chief would have a beef with it is if UNSC propaganda started attributing battles and victories to other Spartans instead of his II siblings who did the actual fighting and bleeding

#

I have no idea why the UNSC would do such a thing

steel stone
#

I hear alot about how many people dislike the 4s and wondered what if scenario

orchid kettle
#

but thats kinda the only thing I can think that would make Chief conflicted about the IVs

empty bloom
#

I feel like even then he wouldn't be too mad about it.

#

It's not like he's an emotional idiot about PR.

stoic hamlet
last anchor
#

Fandom Chief: Rages against the IVs for replacing him and the IIs and depriving him of his purpose in life.
Canon Chief: "Good, have them form up and sweep behind Blue for straglers, we're pushing for the objective."

orchid kettle
empty bloom
#

I think he'd only be mad if specific names were tossed out of IVs he specifically knew

orchid kettle
#

but even then, I dont think he'd be as torn up about it as Cortana is about the possibility of Chief moving on from her death and getting another AI

empty bloom
#

Like if the events of Fred were being called the things Locke did

stoic hamlet
empty bloom
#

Hell, we knew it from Halo 2.

stoic hamlet
#

Yeah but post games, I mean.

honest idol
# orchid kettle Sure, I'm aware that's what they were going for. There's just no reason for Chie...

Yeah, valid. I'm weighing up how this applies to Cortana

Chief accepts replacement outright, where Cortana is afraid. I think it lies in the reversal of roles, where Chief is very mechanical in his evaluation and Cortana is very human in hers;

I think one line in particular is on Requiem, Laskey makes a call to everyone to get on the mammoth; "Anyone not on board is getting left behind"

It's during this moment Cortana expresses "THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU, THEY REPLACED YOU", which could be a depiction of how she (and by extension Chief) were left behind in isolation by the rest of the UNSC.

While Chief accepts this readily, Cortana is still weighing these thoughts throughout the game.

steel stone
#

I love Halo 2 and 3

stoic hamlet
#

“There’s a difference between being the best, and the best known. We’re all more than capable.”

honest idol
#

Cortana is both Chief and herself, being sword and shield, and I don't want to say that she speaks for Chief here especially when rampancy and maternal perspective plays into it greater here

steel stone
#

How was Cortana talking to Chief in Halo 3? theres these moments where the games slows and Cortana starts talking about the future.

honest idol
#

A story from Evolutions depicted it as her broadcasting it, which the gravemind saw and allowed to amplify

orchid kettle
honest idol
#

In Cortana, she speaks more directly before being cut off by Gravemind

steel stone
orchid kettle
#

Chief is not in danger of being replaced as Cortana's escort

#

because the danger is that Cortana is dying

honest idol
#

Yes, and that's the maternal aspect I mentioned. Cortana as Halsey as the Mother to Spartans and John as the favoured child

#

Cortana is equivalently afraid of losing her child

orchid kettle
#

Is she?

honest idol
#

Which ties back again to Halsey specifically worrying about John in the intro

orchid kettle
#

Because she doesn't really try to convince Chief to stay with the Infinity and head back to Earth where he'll be safe

honest idol
#

She doesn't want to leave, and leaving would lead to what she feared. This is the irrationality of rampancy, and the need for a narrative split, though this is a risky option which keeps them together. She does express concern in the pelican at the last second for what it's worth

Paraphrasing:
"It may be a while (before we find a way back home), you know that right?"
"It'll be okay"

#

As for the safety of John being ensured, she makes up for it in 5 where she mirrors what Halsey did in the novels; call Spartans to her and put them into a forerunner ball to wait out a war

orchid kettle
#

Sure, but Im trying to stick to 4 alone

empty bloom
steel stone
#

I hear from many sides to the Halo 4 story and 5s, all of them sound very headcanon to me where I cant exactly disagree but cant agree also.

empty bloom
steel stone
orchid kettle
honest idol
orchid kettle
#

Like I get it, she's crazy, but Cortana can only say the words the writer make her say

honest idol
#

I try to avoid head canon but it can be helpful sometimes

orchid kettle
#

and they can make every word meaningful

empty bloom
steel stone
#

Halo Infinite Cortna destroys a ship or base full of Spartans thats soemthing old cortana I dont think would ever done, that is a huge crime

orchid kettle
#

like how Cortana calls Chief the real machine in Shutdown-- but he just got done defying a superior officer to keep her alive

#

and like I keep saying, has done nothing machine-like or inhuman aside from being real good at fighting

empty bloom
steel stone
orchid kettle
#

Chief repeats it in the epilogue

#

but its not actually reflective of the story

honest idol
orchid kettle
#

Like, Cortana laughing maniacally for no reason in one mission, sure, that's just her being crazy

#

but the machine line doesnt feel like that

steel stone
orchid kettle
honest idol
#

I wish it was told cleaner, it'd make interpreting it a whole lot more convenient, but I like that they tried and delivered what they did

steel stone
#

The only time it hit me was when Chief put Cortana into the console and was blasted, Chief voice in that scene, 343 really got me. Music was at its best there.

honest idol
honest idol
steel stone
honest idol
#

👏

empty bloom
#

Part of it is that Chief's mindset can still be seen as robotic, in spite of his actions. It's a goal-oriented, mechanical, complete-action-at-all-costs mindset. The particulars may change, but that sort of fatalistic, never-stop-unless-killed drive can seem robotic to a being like Cortana.

steel stone
#

I think Halo 4s story droned on too much with too many changes.

honest idol
orchid kettle
#

but my problem is--

#

that happens after the machine line

#

So its not Cortana commenting on actions Chief has performed earlier in the story

#

she just has writer clairoyance

steel stone
#

Chief was never robotic to me. He made jokes, he had great interactions with other characters. If I remember correctly he was legit sad about hurting the ODSTs after argumentations. Chief was holding Johnson not wanting him to die, even Cortana knew he was sad.

orchid kettle
#

and i feel like its way too late in the game to only now start depicting Chief's flaw

#

if the story is how chief needs to overcome that flaw

empty bloom
honest idol
#

Chief is machine and human at once, Cortana is only ever one at a time and cannot balance the two

orchid kettle
#

that flaw needs to be established effectively early on

dusty ferry
#

because she picked him

orchid kettle
dusty ferry
#

If we are honest, halo 3 is the worst standalone title

#

it just requires too much context from halo 2 to work by itself

steel stone
#

Bigger question how the hell did the UNSC even make the Infinity when the covies destroyed everything they had with glassing? Earth was the only placed left told by lord hood in Halo 3.

orchid kettle
#

Even when you start including previous material, I can't help but point out how the whole idea about Chief in Fall of Reach and First Strike is that he was never a heartless killing machine, despite the UNSC's best attempts

honest idol
orchid kettle
#

So like-- what Chief is Halo 4 deconstructing? One it made up in its own head but forgot to characterize effectively?

dusty ferry
steel stone
dusty ferry
#

and the other planets i guess

steel stone
#

I refuse to believe there were barely any planets left, Earth was their last stronghold as explained in Halo 3 thats what made it so important

versed helm
orchid kettle
dusty ferry
orchid kettle
#

some went and declared independence while the UNSC was too weak to do anything about it, and some inner colonies are just fine

#

I assume because the Covenant found Earth and Reach before they finished sweeping the rest of the core worlds

honest idol
orchid kettle
#

and started hyper focusing on that instead

honest idol
#

But, they make it all about John

#

I'll have to think about that actually, interesting points

steel stone
#

I wont disagree there but Halo 3 was the UNSCs final stand against the Covenant. Saying nope there were other planets that were around fine ruins the theme of hope that game had to me

orchid kettle
#

Well, probably because Earth is the UNSC HQ and the inner colonies are nothing without it

dusty ferry
honest idol
#

Killing truth didn't destroy the covenant forever either

#

They hung around and splintered

steel stone
dusty ferry
#

Banished to me feel like part of a deus ex machina tbh

steel stone
dusty ferry
#

They kind of have to pull massive amounts of plot armor out of nowhere to get from the position they had in wars 2 to Infinite

#

That's like the only issue i have with them though. Otherwise they are fine

steel stone
orchid kettle
#

Well, they later retconned it to be like-- the forces on the Ark were only a fraction of Atriox's true power

#

he's Frieza and he was only in his first form

dusty ferry
#

Yeah, and he somehow mostly unified the brutes in like 2 months

honest idol
#

Oh, filter

#

Whoops

steel stone
honest idol
#

During the HCW

dusty ferry
steel stone
#

Sorry what does HCW mean?

dusty ferry
#

like he rebelled during that mission

honest idol
#

Atriox got tired of being thrown against humanity and dying a bunch

honest idol
#

2525 to 2552

orchid kettle
steel stone
orchid kettle
#

I also dont really think its that implausible that after the war, the Brutes were in desperate need of a strong leader

#

and what better choice than Atriox

dusty ferry
orchid kettle
#

who I imagine is basically a cultural folkhero

steel stone
orchid kettle
steel stone
#

I never understood why the Elites are still enemies in Halo 4 to Infinite

orchid kettle
#

its uh, real dumb

honest idol
#

Jul moment

dusty ferry
#

People can choose to be bad people

orchid kettle
#

basically they dont like that humans have colonies

#

despite having colonies themselves

dusty ferry
#

thats why we have to fight elites

orchid kettle
#

It's very nonsensensical. I suspect because Halo 4 is clearly based heavily off of Reach, gameplay wise

#

and Reach had Elites as the main leader force

#

so now 343 has to explain why Elites are back

steel stone
#

Elites you could sympathize with due to them following the great journey in good faith only to be slapped around by brutes and betrayed by the prophets

honest idol
#

Juls covenant is formed from those who continue to dislike humanity, and still believe in the forerunners as gods. Kilo 5 explored their creation

steel stone
#

Halo 4 I dunno

orchid kettle
#

I was gonna say that ONI captured and tortured Jul and thats why he does what he does

#

but he also joined an anti-human terrorist cell before that

dusty ferry
#

The banished elites are just people who choose to follow atriox

#

because atriox pays them

orchid kettle
steel stone
#

Elites really have no reason to be in the Banished. They are willingly teaming up with Brutes, same guys that brutalized them.

orchid kettle
#

the sense I get is that the Banished is, in truth, a collection of Jiralhanae packs, Sangheili PMCs, and wanna be Jackal pirate fleets

#

with of course a healthy amount of species swearing fealty to Atriox himself directly

#

and thats what the Chosen, Bloodstars, etc are

dusty ferry
#

The Jiralhanae packs are the ones i assume who have actual loyalty to Atriox specifically. The rest are just here for the money and had to deal with the weird diefication of Atiox for six months

steel stone
#

But why though? all they shown was to be evil brutal aliens, they have a bad moral code almost as bad as the great journey

orchid kettle
#

because in Shadow of Reach, the three packs are fighting each other despite all of them being in the Banished

#

they're just allowed to have their inter-clan feud

#

And Atriox I guess doesn't care as long as his goals are accomplished

steel stone
orchid kettle
#

to be better pirates

dusty ferry
#

I like to imagine Atriox or escharum or anyone of that rank has to be with a group of packs or they all start to fighting each other

orchid kettle
#

I guess the way you can see it is that Atriox is taking the Jiralhanae ideal of "might makes right", but expanding it to all races

steel stone
orchid kettle
#

and now anybody, regardless of race, can be a cool Bloodstar or whatever as long as they're good at being pirates

dusty ferry
orchid kettle
#

they're competing to see who will accomplish Atriox's goals first, and sabotaging other clans is just allowed

steel stone
#

Banished captured a Spartan and tortured him in Halo Infinite and was shockingly and Elite that did it.

dusty ferry
orchid kettle
#

well thats because Atriox "died" and Escharum took over

#

and Escharum clearly doesnt share Atriox's ideals

carmine sleet
#

Yeah

dusty ferry
#

I meant that half the time we know there is anti human racism in the banished outside of Zeta halo stuff. Remember that time the humans in the banished on the ark were ordered to die or whatever it was

carmine sleet
#

Honestly, I find it funny that as soon as Atriox was presumed dead at Zeta Halo, Escharum basically glorified him like a god, which feels very much like something Atriox wouldn't want

steel stone
#

Not even sure what Escharum wanted, sounds like a veteran that wanted to fight Chief because hes the best Spartan

orchid kettle
#

they're becoming hypocrites lol

dusty ferry
#

They have no consistency

steel stone
#

I swear the Banished are slowly becoming actual Space Pirates from Metroid

dusty ferry
#

but in like a good way

terse sage
#

I think Infinite implies that Escharum is dying and he wants to fight Chief so that he can either die gloriously to the strongest human or die knowing he defeated the strongest human

carmine sleet
orchid kettle
#

Gotta feel bad for Atriox, because this means that he failed to properly communicate his ideals

carmine sleet
#

Yeah

orchid kettle
#

people were just following him because you follow the strongest in their society

#

but they didn't take his words to heart

#

but they worship his strength

#

but not his words

steel stone
dusty ferry
#

He couldn't even reach his oldest friend with his ideals

#

Honestly, do we know how atriox learned about the endless? was that what his objective on the ark was?

carmine sleet
#

Aye, pretty sure that's where he learnt about them from

steel stone
orchid kettle
dusty ferry
orchid kettle
#

where even lil Grunts can become respected Bloodstars

dusty ferry
#

Though that depends on how many ships they brought

carmine sleet
#

Yeah, the leadership loss is the bigger issue in how Escharum dealt with things in Infinite