#lore-and-universe

1 messages · Page 16 of 1

orchid kettle
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Its why she's trying to "save" them in Ghosts of Onyx

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she thinks earth is lost, but if nothing else, she can do right by the kids by giving them a safe haven

bronze delta
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I'll have to reread that, but I thought that was more Her Work becoming pawns of ONI

unique rune
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Ehhh I doubt it

orchid kettle
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Its also like, her whole thing in First Strike

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Halsey teaches John that its not right to sacrifice people for the greater good

bronze delta
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It's been so long since I've read those books

orchid kettle
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its why John at the end, destroys the chip that would have led to the UNSC dissecting Johnson for a chance to make a Flood cure

bronze delta
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That I do remember

orchid kettle
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Her whole deal is "Hey remember what Mendez said about 'Lives spent vs Lives wasted'? Yeah, forget that, that's still lives lost."

bronze delta
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With that, I think Halsey is anti-UNSC/ONI, pro-Spartan-II's

orchid kettle
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In the sense that she's supportive of the children of the Spartan-II program now

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but it doesn't seem she believes in the II's mission

bronze delta
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Which mission?

orchid kettle
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that perhaps a humanity that can only be saved with kidnapped tortured child soldiers

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is a humanity that doesn't deserve to make it

bronze delta
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Mmm, gotcha

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I suppose that could be seen, but I don't recall clear enough to hold a stance yet

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I still blame Traviss for absolute shoddy character depictions, all across the board. Even her Russian nice-guy psycho

orchid kettle
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Well like, its why I never liked the assertion that Chief "isnt human" until Halo 4

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First Strike is already supposed to be the book that teaches him that the ends dont justify the means

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Its not okay to sacrifice Johnson for a chance at a flood cure

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Thats not a decision an emotionless, purely pragmatic government tool would make

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Of course Fall of Reach itself is already about how Chief always had compassion for his fellow man, and the Spartan program never took that from him

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The guy's Captain America to begin with, the UNSC just tried to convince him he's not

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Which is different than the idea that he's an inhuman machine until Cortana happens to him

meager pier
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@orchid kettle I think they made those assertions to those only only knew him through the games, and getting people ready they were gonna bring this stuff in from the novels

orchid kettle
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Well the problem is that if you do read the novels, Halo 4 is still nonsensical

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Like, you now know that Halsey shouldn't act the way she does

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That Chief isn't a machine like Cortana suggests

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Its not so much that Halo 4 is trying to "be true to the books"

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But that Halo 4 is its own thing, and the newer books are there to support it

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At best, Halo 4 and Kilo-5 feel like somebody just read TFoR, and stopped there

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without realizing the characters have progressed

bronze delta
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I think at first Halsey's answers in Halo 4 may have been just providing what ONI expected, without damning herself even more

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But as well with the "our destiny as a species" not so much that the Spartan-II Project was the answer, but that humanity was destined to be more. Some of that could have also been her geas influencing her views

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Especially with the Domain recovering

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Also having news of the post-war events may have changed her mind from the "doom and gloom" of Ghosts of Onyx

orchid kettle
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Thats always the funny thing about Halsey being portrayed as irredeemably evil

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In 343's lore, Halsey is hinted to be the Librarian's direct agent, at least when it came to the Spartan

bronze delta
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More explicitly stated to be so lol

orchid kettle
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so now its not the story of how an antisocial scientist made some mistakes and repented later in life

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but Halsey being under ancient alien mind control

bronze delta
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I wouldn't say so much "mind control", just influence. Halsey's ideas are her ideas, but their aiming towards the Librarian's goal for her

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Spiritual suggestions, as it were

orchid kettle
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I mean, its all kinda the same thing narratively speaking

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It alleviates Halsey's responsibilities for the horrors she committed

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which will always be a poor move narratively

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Because it robs her of agency

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I mean, I know the idea that the Forerunners have been shaping human society from beyond the grave has been kicking around since Halo 2's cut ending

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But you know-- maybe sometimes, cut content should stay cut

meager pier
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Might be small, but I was annoyed in Halo 5 when Cortana had the audacity to call Halsey "that monster"

orchid kettle
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It is pretty funny how characters attribute the Spartan program in general to Halsey

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and not like

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ONI/UNSC

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Vaz boiling with rage towards Halsey for what she did

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while he is currently working for ONI

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will always be hilarious

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maybe Vaz just hates it when other people commit war crimes, who knows

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It's always felt unclear in Traviss's writing whether you're supposed to realize that Vaz is a massive hypocrite

unique rune
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Halsey is clearly the bad guy for going through with a plan that ONI had zero questions or hesitation towards /s

orchid kettle
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I mean, at the time, its not wrong to mention how Halsey did a lot of bad things

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I don't really take exception to how Halsey is framed in a sinister manner in that one Legends short with Daisy

bronze delta
orchid kettle
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But Halsey just isn't the same person as time goes on

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Not that that automatically resolves her of all wrong doing

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but she was clearly trying to be better

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and taking that aspect away from the character just makes the character blander

bronze delta
# orchid kettle It alleviates Halsey's responsibilities for the horrors she committed

Well, I mean I don't think it's as strong as all that. What's more, Halsey did so much research to determine that it was the only way to attain that Goal. If the Librarian was full-on controlling her, it would have been beyond the Spartan-IV Program from the beginning. Rather, it's more like a whisper telling her "Build this armor. Shape these soldiers. Create a new AI" without telling her how to go about doing that. She was given the destination, but the path was still hers to walk

orchid kettle
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Like I said, I don't really see a difference. Either it's fate, or it's not. Either Halsey is her own person who makes her own choices, or she's not.

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regardless of how hard to see those strings are, a puppet is a puppet

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Of course, Halsey isn't real, so all her choices are really just her dancing along to the writers' tune

bronze delta
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Lol, true

orchid kettle
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I'd just wish the writer wouldn't remind me of that fact and take me out of the story

bronze delta
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I do still think though that Halsey retains her guilt, as the actions were still hers. The Librarian planned for her to make MJOLNIR and Cortana, but didn't tell her how to do that. Which does make all the difference, I think. Her string is less puppet strings and more a NAV Point. How she gets there is still up to her, and it could have been more ethically done

icy yoke
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She had a timeframe.... you cut corners

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Abducting 150 kids... to save 150 Million

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Billions lives down the road.

bronze delta
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I mean more stealing children from the very people the UEG was putting pressure on, rather than turning to patriotic conscription

steady sierra
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Just wanted to chime in, i really am not sure if to think of Halsey as a good or a bad person entirely. She has done tons of wrong, but it’s obvious the Spartan-IIs see her as a mother figure type (ex. Jorge from Reach) but then of course later on the books make her out to be kind of a villain but then at the same time her actions have saved millions, but the original use of the Spartan-IIs were to stop human rebellion, so it’s confusing, really.

icy yoke
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The Spartan III were easier to indoctrinate..... they were from glassed colonies. Eager to strike back.

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The whole point of the IV was to capitulate consenting volunteers

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Spartan II were abducted

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Spartan III were orphaned

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Spartan IV were adults to begin with

orchid kettle
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Well, Nylund kinda already nudged her like that to begin with, with the idea that ONI already knew that for the augmentations to succeed, they would have to be children

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they just waited for Halsey to catch up

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In Halsey's Journal

bronze delta
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I thought Halsey was the one to put that constraint in there?

orchid kettle
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She says something to the effect of

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"ONI was already aware of what I realized: the candidates would have to be children."

icy yoke
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Spartan I were not successful enough

bronze delta
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Ahhh

steady sierra
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Oh also if it’s okay to mention the tv series here one thing I absolutely hated about it is how John had major anger issues, never saw Chief in the games like that. I didn’t really understand that bit. I’m not lore fluent enough to know if he was like that in the books though?

icy yoke
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Still..... could tried on 18 yearolds

bronze delta
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Harder to indoctrinate

steady sierra
bronze delta
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Takes 12 years to indoctrinate a group to a cause

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So abducting 6 year olds allowed them to augment them by 18

orchid kettle
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just being real angry at everyone

bronze delta
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Lol

steady sierra
bronze delta
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It doesn't

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Silver Timeline is non-canonical, so it's a non-issue

steady sierra
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I’ve only read fall of reach since that’s the only one that’s available in libraries near me

steady sierra
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Do you guys prefer Chief as a “husk for the player to embody” (Halo OG Trilogy) or as a separate character (343 games)?

bronze delta
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He's always been his own character

steady sierra
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Yeah if we correlate in the books definitely, I meant like in gameplay, he had pretty limited characterization in the bungie trilogy

orchid kettle
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I like his character in the Nylund books

icy yoke
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Small Spartan

orchid kettle
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Where like, the dude does care for the people around him, even non-Spartans

icy yoke
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Do we really need 7 foot tall basketball players

steady sierra
icy yoke
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CE he grabbed that marine threw him on life pod

orchid kettle
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Infinite Chief with the pilot probably felt like the best Chief representation in a long time

steady sierra
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That “we all fail” part was amazing

icy yoke
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If you can shield a Spartan can't you shield a Warthog...

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There's shielded warthogs

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Still you'd think theyd put 2 and 2 together

unique rune
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There’s a lot more Warthogs on the field than there are Spartans

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and shielding systems aren’t cheap

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Also probably not as useful considering you can’t sneak a Warthog inside a enemy installation quite as effectively has a couple of Spartans

icy yoke
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Hybrid transmission, no sound. EV quiet.

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What they needed was a smaller JEEP 2 Seat mini hog

bronze delta
unique rune
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They should’ve made it shoot energy swords smh

icy yoke
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Energy swords I'm sure made great souvenirs... somewhere a Sehgali is selling em in Phoenix Arizona

abstract yarrow
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Seen the new Intel for the event? Apparently the Chimera core is this Created Remnant plan that Sloan is simulating. It has a ton of little lore bits about State of the Galaxy. Like if you’re curious about the Created there’s more about it there than is in Halo Infinite campaign. 😄

bronze delta
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Well, it'd be a state of the galaxy in a different timeline. From secondary sources we have a fair idea of what's going on during Pax Cortana

main zephyr
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Current fracture makes no mention of being alternate timeline. 343 can make fractures within the main canon if they wish. Only time will tell.

abstract yarrow
main zephyr
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I genuinely loved the idea of MP content being wargames simulations, the ideas of fractures being split off was really off-putting to me personally.. The way this one's handled is a lot more enticing.

abstract yarrow
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Now for all I know this wishful thinking and he’s in AI jail. But even then, just keep passing him drinks. Keep the AI talking. 😄

meager pier
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Interesting that this fracture is Sloan's hypothetical future for the galaxy under the Created

abstract yarrow
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Well that’s the thing. This is his idea. Apparently there’s a bunch of different Created going off in their own directions. Strictly speaking Cortana was a Rogue Servitor like the Culture. AI “look after” organic life as benevolent overlords. Whereas Sloans idea is the Borg…

tranquil canyon
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what i love about chief is even though he didn’t choose his situation he still actually cares about all of humanity and his interactions with marines shows it

abstract yarrow
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I just realised. Those cutscenes you must be the most Sus if you’re a Created cyborg. 😄

kind cargo
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I know ONI and the UNSC are the same but I was kind of half asleep when my friend called me and asked?

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I was kind of hoping to get a cut scene of the new event but that’s just fine now because you know free stuff.

fair hazel
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there is a canon aspect to the chimera core then

heady geyser
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This’s from waypoint on the event lore, Cortana has been defeated. While the greater urgency of the Created threat has begun to subside with the loss of their leader, its presence still lingers on throughout the digital framework of civilized space. Now fragmented, individual cells of Created-aligned artificial intelligence have already begun to once again reframe their place in the galaxy, some with eyes on peace and independence—others with plans of evolution and ascendancy still fresh on their synthetic minds.

High Auxiliary Sloan was one of Cortana’s most loyal lieutenants. With Cortana’s piece now removed from the game board, Sloan has set the FIREWALL contingency into motion—a living simulation meant to leverage intimate knowledge of Forerunner armiger technology and Mjolnir armor schematics to accelerate the exploration and development of cybernetic essence vessels designed to usher the human mind into its inevitable and digital future, immortal and untethered.

bronze delta
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Eeesh that is creepy lol

heady geyser
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Ik lol

humble yacht
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cortana was defeated in this reality too? lame

dusk jetty
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It would be very interesting to see a halo society a long time after the created took over, and we could see what would’ve happened had everything gone to plan.

humble yacht
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i appreciate that in this reality the Created did what cortana said they would do in H5, rather than just stupidly defaulting to blowing things up like in the main timeline

meager pier
humble yacht
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so then why do executors exist? also please remember to disable pings

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how do we know this is in the main canon, that sort of defeats the purpose of calling it a fracture

meager pier
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This is in Sloan's simulated hypothetical future
Other fractures are non-canon stuff interpretations of the franchise, while this fracture is sprung from canon, but like "If Cortana succeeded" kinda fanfic

humble yacht
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that still makes it an alternate reality. not all parallel worlds have to be wildly different from the central world

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sometimes alterations can be subtle

bronze delta
humble yacht
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ok now hold on

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if FIREWALL is set in the main timeline

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is the Spartan in the fracture story purely simulated?

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or, a composed Spartan entity

bronze delta
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Jokes aside I believe a simulated Spartan

humble yacht
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if the Created had knowledge of the Academy, why wasn't it eliminated? they took out the other training facility

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i appreciate them trying to bring the Created back in but this seems hastily put together

heady geyser
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I mean live fire was an oni site

humble yacht
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it's not so much the location as it is referred specifically as the Academy

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even mentions Spartan Agryna

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i thought the academy was supposed to be a secret so new spartans could be trained without fear of getting attacked by banished or created

bronze delta
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Does FIREWALL have ties to the AJJAMS?

heady geyser
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I’m surprised that cortana didn’t go after Laconia sister stations Naxos and Virgo

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Because both stations are use for Spartan IV training

unique rune
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Agryna, the maneuverability course, and all the bot Spartans from the tutorial are mentioned as well

abstract yarrow
# humble yacht i thought the academy was supposed to be a secret so new spartans could be train...

Yeah that was a bit weird. Irratus could have told Sloan I guess. But he’s a Banished AI and they hate the Created unless he’s lying to the UNSC about being a banished. I don’t know why they would be less suspicious of one enemy AI over another…

Also, Sloan isn’t doing “what if Cortana won” scenario. He’s basically making his Plan B now that she’s dead. Like at one point he says “I always hoped she would green light this” to paraphrase. Cortana wasn’t planning on turning everybody into Cyborgs. Her thing seems to have closer to the Culture instead of the Borg which is what Sloan is advocating with this simulation.

He’s basically doing a feasibility study.

humble yacht
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As far as we know, Iratus was not part of the Created

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also, please remember to disable pings when replying

gaunt oakBOT
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To disable the ping/tag when replying, please click or tap the "on" button at the right hand side of the chat box in order to turn it off.
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O6l6TKF.png
abstract yarrow
# humble yacht As far as we know, Iratus was not part of the Created

Yeah that’s why it’s weird. His only characterisation is being pro Banished. It could be that the timing is a little out of step. Maybe in this season he will try and send out a broadcast on a general frequency. Which would alert the Created as well as the Banished. On the menu the new image is a big dish beacon of some kind. Maybe that’s it.

In the description for the Live Fire map on Canon Fodder it mentions that they do have lots of AI and have to keep up really rigorous security and data purging to make sure none of them slip any information out. So while it’s strong, there’s no reason mistakes could not have been made and they only just learned about it.

Also, Sloan is essentially planning this all out. So he wouldn’t attack the Spartans unless he had plotted the whole thing out first to make sure it would work.

That, or he is in AI jail on that very base and is currently just running these simulations from a cell.

humble yacht
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the idea that any AI in the Created could be imprisoned goes against the very thing that made Cortana so powerful in the first place

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How do you trap something tapped into a galaxy spanning network?

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it doesn't make sense

kind cargo
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The lost of Cortana was a heavy blow to the Created and whatever knowledge she had she took it to the grave with her. And we all know Cortana isn’t the type to share that kind of knowledge.

humble yacht
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she literally said that any AI who joined her would share in the benefits of the Domain

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you'd think that if she renegged on that offer, her followers wouldn't have stuck around

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part of the appeal for joining the Created was the cure for rampancy, which every AI understood to be an inevitability

kind cargo
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Cortana will only share information that’s less important to her and whatever information she likes the most she will keep it for herself.

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When it comes to knowledge she’s very greedy just like her creator.

unique rune
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I mean, sure, but like. The entire draw of her plan was that AI would be effectively immortal due to the expanse of the Domain. Not really something she'd be able to hide.

humble yacht
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Sloan was already in the stages of rampancy in 2558. His days were numbered. for him to have survived until 2560 suggests some intervention

kind cargo
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And we don’t know what this cure is for the AI’s or how effective it is but This would be a good way for Cortana to control the other AI’s Just in case the others would try to Backstabber her.

terse lava
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Was it ever said the rest of the Created AI were actually allowed into the domain alongside Cortana?

kind cargo
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They join Cortana because she said that she would cure them of their rampancy but she never said it was a perfect solution.

icy yoke
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Rampant wasn't curable....

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Basically you can't have an AI stop thinking. Less it's an organic simulator. How we stop from going berserk.... we rest

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AI have perfectly finite perception of time so they think the second then that 2 seconds and remember

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So on...

uneven maple
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So... dumb ai can't go through rampancy cause there are limits on its neural network if I'm not qrong

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Wrong*

tiny oracle
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How much crew did the spirit of fire have after halo wars 1

icy yoke
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Dumb AI I believe dont possess a classic neural network they are all programming

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Dumb AI are made via conventional programming language hence their ability to cognitive processing and intuitive leaps are impossible. They're still smart tonrun systems but incapable of emotional and super sophisticated tasks

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Smart AI are made imprinting a neural pattern from organic host brain.

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This allows their matrix to grow and assort complex tasks and adapt exponentially. But comes with the added drawback of over use...

kind cargo
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Question are all the created connected to the domain?

icy yoke
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Presumably ones that did survive

kind cargo
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Wait a minute you don’t think Sloan manage to get in the domain because that would be bad?

heady geyser
heady geyser
bronze delta
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No, Dumb AI are only limited by their hardware's lifespan. They can live decades

heady geyser
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My bad I had my phone brightness low lol

obtuse crow
uneven maple
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Like if you think about it Deja from fall of reach is the "teacher" of the Spartans but is still around at the time when Cortana chose master chief ... so yes they can live for decades

proper spoke
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Alright quick question-
You’re a spartan about to drop in to do a big sweep on the banished. What music you listening to

uneven maple
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Gungnir mix/mjolnir mix

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Or rust and guts (doom 2016)

gentle imp
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^those, or rip & tear (doom 2016)

bronze delta
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BFG Division

elder spear
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Wish I could play halo 5 so the lore would make more sense

uneven maple
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No actually

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It wouldnt

bronze delta
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Yes, it does...

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Y'know, for all the inconsistencies that exist in multiple Fandoms all across the spectrum, Halo has been uniquely blessed with a canon that, for the vastly large part, has remained consistent and required little to no retcons.

keen egret
bronze delta
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One doesn't even really need to. I've been able to answer storyline-pertinent questions with the games alone, before.

elder spear
keen egret
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Highly recommended them

elder spear
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Luckily the terminals also help a lot in halo 2

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It explains that the humans aren't from earth and where placed there by forerunner which kinda explains why the Covenent have general features likes eyes and a mouth just like us

bronze delta
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Huh?

elder spear
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What?

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Have you never played halo 2

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The terminals that show animations

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And how the forerunner saved the humans from extinction

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That's explained in halo 4 as well

crimson grove
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@elder spear Dude...The forerunners didn't save humanity from extinction... They did the exact opposite...

gilded mason
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They kinda did...in that the original goal was to exterminate them and they eventually decided on the "lesser" punishment of getting devolved. Such great guys.

crimson grove
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Such great guys....

elder spear
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I'll brb

gilded mason
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She was pretty racist and probably caused a lot of the bad stuff that happened in the modern era, inadvertently.

crimson grove
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@elder spear Well the librarian's from a minority group of forerunners who were against 'normal forerunner' ideas or whatever...

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@gilded mason ???

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I mean she helped chief defeat her Husband...

gilded mason
# crimson grove <@260910412080480256> ???

Wanted humans to ascend above all other species; thought their evolution was most "complete"(?????) above all others, even their own; chose humans, as an entire species, to be granted special permission to use extremely powerful tools that they would most likely abuse. And turning humans into "Reclaimers" sort of accidently set in motion a lot of the conflicts in the games.

bronze delta
crimson grove
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@gilded mason Never thought about that...I thought they(Forerunners) wanted to redeem themselves by reinstating the humans as reclaimers as the primordials wanted...

gilded mason
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I mean, the Primordial is a bad guy to take advice from. ;)

elder spear
gilded mason
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It also might just be an 'anthropic principle' thing.

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As in, we interact with these bipedal (for the most part) species because that design was most suited for creating advanced tech. Thus we almost never see other configurations because they could not leave their worlds.

elder spear
bronze delta
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Hang on

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From what I can find humanity is natively from Earth, called Erde Tyrene in pre-history

icy yoke
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Yes Earth is humanity homeworld. After forerunners degraded their status back

bronze delta
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So far as I can find, even before then. The Forerunners returned them there because it was their home world

heady geyser
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So what are we talking about

dusk jetty
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Are forerunners human 😈

unique rune
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Don’t start

obtuse crow
dusk jetty
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I was mostly joking, because it’s a common debate with fans, but what do you mean base stock? I haven’t heard that before

unique rune
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Basically Forerunners and humans share a common ancestor species

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Pretty standard evolution stuff, just in this case the Precursors were the ones who intentionally induced the change instead of just random evolutionary chance

timid skiff
last anchor
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Two divergent species from a common ancestor

bronze delta
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Exactly that

orchid kettle
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Of course, GS's line still ends up being incorrect

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technically it should be

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"Forerunners are Human"

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calling Chief Forerunner is like calling a random man italian

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the real question is

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how did the split even happen

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how do you accidentally end up on the otherside of the galaxy for millions of years

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Like, Earth IS our home world. We have fossil records and similar dna to other creatures on Earth

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For reference, we had a common ancestor with lobsters 350 million years ago

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Hell only 40,000 years ago, the Neanderthal went extinct

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for forerunners to look as human as they do, the split would have to be fairly recent

obsidian thistle
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Note: Halo isnt 1 to 1 with irl history. So its kinda a good idea not to hold it as strict unfortunately for better or worse.

orchid kettle
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I mean, its close enough to have desert eagles and chicago

obsidian thistle
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To put a lil footnote on stuff however.

The Precursors seed the Forerunners 15 million years ago.

orchid kettle
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i assume our dna is still 98.5% similar to dolphins

orchid kettle
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that sounds too far if our last common ancestor with chimps was only 6 million years ago

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you know, if forerunners are meant to be like our brother species and all that

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If we diverged that long ago from Forerunners, it really wouldn't be relevant to point towards any common ancestry

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because at that point you may as well make the silver back gorilla a reclaimer too

heady geyser
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Are there any other monitors we don’t know or haven’t seen yet

obsidian thistle
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Again irl and Halo history are not 1 to 1. For better or worse thats kinda how it was written.

orchid kettle
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Like, Paul and supposedly another writer for the terminal have the interpretation that the Precursors showed up, picked up some humans, and put them somewhere else along with a bunch of cool technology

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But 15 million years ago, its not really fair to call that mammal a human at all I wouldnt think

orchid kettle
obsidian thistle
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To be fair its described more akin to being taken from the same stock. (Which is personally to think about our very distant ancestors like)

orchid kettle
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Like, it sounds like you're supposed to think about this stuff

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Like Paul's explanation seemed like it was intended for Bungie to have its cake and eat it too

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You can have humans off in space being cool space guys

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while also having cavemen back at Earth, evolving and leaving behind fossils like we expect

obsidian thistle
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How I view it is this.

There is a species that was used by the Precursors to be seeded across the galaxy.

This species isnt "human" or "Forerunner". But when seeded they lead to the eventuality.

orchid kettle
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This is perhaps also consistent with Truth for some reason implying that there were two groups of humans: those who were worthy, and those who weren't and were left behind

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Which is a parallel to the San Shyuum's own history

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which feels intentional on Staten's part, honestly

obsidian thistle
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Its possible that Humans and Forerunners werent the "only" ones who were from that same stock the Precursors used also. Yonhets ability to find Forerunner tech may suggest a similar link.

orchid kettle
#

Is Contact Harvest also the first time we hear about Brutes nuking themselves back to the stone age? Because that also sounds very much like a parallel Staten is creating with the history of one alien race with humanity.

obsidian thistle
orchid kettle
#

I think I'll always fight for "Humans should be Forerunners" too because I think that just is a stronger narrative

#

Not just because its a cleaner fit with the real world

#

Like I like Forerunners being misguided and almost deserving of their ultimate fate

#

I just think it hits even harder if they're outright human

#

Like, oops, we're the jag offs that spurred God's wrath and almost destroyed life as we know it

#

We already failed God's test. So, now what?

#

To say nothing of how the Human-Covenant War and its dramatic irony gets undercut, or how much you end up having to plug your ears in the original trilogy whenever somebody says anything about the Forerunners

#

It feels like the split only occurred because they thought it'd make sense if the Didact hated a different species instead of his own in Halo 4

#

but clearly, the Didact being the Reclaimer Saga's main antag didn't pan out anyway

orchid kettle
#

God deciding Man became too sinful, and it was time to hit the reset button

#

but if Forerunners and Humans are separate, its really more like we're just the random monkies Noah grabbed instead of Man

#

but whatever, who cares about literary allusion

dusk jetty
#

Small question, which planets are inner colonies? I know there’s reach and tribute and earth, is there anything else?

orchid kettle
#

honestly, not really

#

the inner colonies are pretty nebulous

#

Its like, purely the Sol system and the system Reach is in

dusk jetty
#

I can remember the Star Wars galaxy map, which has way more planets, yet whenever I think of halo, my mind goes blank

orchid kettle
#

Im sure there's more but nobody ever seems to care

#

well Halo isnt even really using the whole galaxy

dusk jetty
orchid kettle
#

Like, I think all of human space fits in the orion arm of the galaxy

#

if not all of covenant as well

dusk jetty
#

That is helpful to know. Thank you. I’ve been trying to familiarise myself with locations as I’m confused whenever I read any novels when they mention “the ____ system” or whatever.

dusty ferry
#

My best guess is that the inner outer thing is based on year colonized. So we can’t really answer the question due to lacking a lot of lore

unique rune
#

Yeah, Inner Colonies vs Outer Colonies is based on how early they were settled rather than actual location

dusty ferry
#

yeah, isn't the lore that distance isn't exactly important for slipspace travel?

unique rune
#

Normal space distances don't always quite match up to slipspace distances, yeah
So systems and planets that were relatively far out from Earth via sublight travel may have been settled many years before some closer ones, resulting in the former being considered part of the Inner Colonies while the latter would've ended up as Outer, because the slipspace routes to those further colonies turned out to be shorter

dusty ferry
unique rune
dusty ferry
#

Halopedia is the goat

dusk jetty
bronze delta
# orchid kettle Of course, GS's line still ends up being incorrect

The problem with all that is that during Halo 3, Bungie was split into two camps. Half continued with the "Forerunners are human" theme, and the other half (it wasn't just Frankie) went with the "Forerunners and humans are separate". Joe - who was big on the first - was on "Administrative Leave" for Halo 3 and was not in the loop for the Terminals, which is why Contact Harvest has the line that it does.

#

Oh dang, that was long ago lol

orchid kettle
#

Well, the thing is, Paul, who worked on the terminals as well, says he and another writer believed in the interpretation that Forerunners were human

#

Just like-- taken from Earth long ago, and raised up to be Forerunners

#

and thats why that IRIS log where a Forerunner freaks out about discovering humans on Earth is the way it is

gilded mason
#

Sorta similar to current canon, just a bit more recent.

orchid kettle
#

Imagine going to an alien planet and finding your own species on it-- with no idea how or why they're there

#

Its also kinda debatable how much Staten actually was kept in the loop for

#

Like, Mendicant Bias is the guy in Contact Harvest both telling Truth everything, and is responsible for the Halo 3 terminals

#

thats quite the coincidence

#

Nevermind how Truth in Contact Harvest reacts with "The Forerunners... some were left behind!"

#

which kinda fits with Truth's later line in Halo 3, that being "Now I see why they left you behind."

bronze delta
#

That's because Joe wasn't in on the loop while he was put on leave

orchid kettle
#

Paul also admitted that Bungie knew the Campaign and the terminals were at odds with each other

#

and they were planning to cut the terminals

#

but Paul fought tooth and nail to keep them in

bronze delta
#

Mmm, no, one sec

orchid kettle
#

He doesn't offer an explanation for why Bungie chose to cut the terminals, could have been time constraints, or maybe they just didnt like it, or whatever

#

Though Paul does kinda seem to fail to notice the irony of criticizing Bungie for letting the Campaign and Terminals ship together the way they were, where they would conflict

#

While also mentioning how he fought to keep them in

bronze delta
#

Paul Russel's tweet said "Nooo! Bungie totally wanted the terminals! We didn't initially have time or resources to get them in. I was asked if I wanted to help and jumped in. Frank, Damian, Robt, Stokes, Bertone, Jaime, and even Jones contributed to the writing of the terminals. All vetted by management."

orchid kettle
#

Yeah, and later on, he'll mention that there was a decision to cut them

#

and he fought to make sure his team's work didnt go to waste

bronze delta
#

Not to sound argumentative, but do you have the quote for that? Most I can find is that it wasn't going to be cut, but they were worried it wouldn't be done by release

orchid kettle
#

Paul uh, doesn't have a high opinion of Bungie management to keep things straight

#

Here's the part where he says terminals were "on the chopping block"

bronze delta
#

Were they on the chopping block for time or content, though?

orchid kettle
#

Like I said, I dont think it really matters

#

If the campaign and terminals become at odds with each other

#

one of them being axed does remove that conflict

#

though obviously not in a way the people working want

bronze delta
#

I mean, at this point yeah lol... It's very easily explained away as both Mendicant and Spark being rampant

orchid kettle
#

The problem is just that those stories are worse

#

Because these are clearly meant to be dramatic, important moments

#

and now you're supposed to shove your fingers in your ears and pretend you don't hear anything

#

tho its kinda funny that we can call one shard of MB rampant

bronze delta
#

I dunno, I've always thought the "Forerunners are ancient humans" is weird. Especially how Chief is supposed to have been the one to fire the Array?

orchid kettle
#

and not the one that's supplying us with terminals

orchid kettle
bronze delta
#

Oh, no the one on the Ark is rampant as well, for sure.

orchid kettle
#

he could be saying "You" as in, mankind

bronze delta
orchid kettle
#

It could have been mysterious, like the Forerunners PLANNED to reseed themselves with all their knowledge intact

#

but it failed

#

And GS doesnt understand that

#

He thinks Chief knows everything already

orchid kettle
#

He does after all say in CE

#

"I am glad to see some of them [his maker's race] lived to reproduce."

#

to Chief

#

which you can either explain away as just more crazy

bronze delta
#

Nah, I think it was pretty clearly supposed to have been the Chief specifically. Spark is too direct in his confusion to John's confusion as to what to do, stating that John's done it before

orchid kettle
#

or more proof that humans are forerunner

bronze delta
orchid kettle
#

Like I said, maybe, or it had the more interesting implication

dusty ferry
#

i mean the new lore geas thing makes it even weirder

orchid kettle
#

Because otherwise he disavows the decision to keep the Flood

#

"Why naturally the Flood is simply too dangerous to release, and mass sterilization protocols may again need to be enacted. Of course, samples were kept here after the last catastrophic outbreak... for study. It seems... that decision may have been an error."

#

"The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am grateful to see that some of them survived to reproduce."

#

These lines are right after each other

#

Like, think of it in context of CE

#

Bungie was originally only going to do CE

#

and if it was, we'd probably get a game theory episode about how humans are forerunners, and it would just become common knowledge, like people theorizing that R+L=J

#

and of course the classic line: "You can't imagine how exciting this is! To have a record of all of our lost time! Human history, is it? Fascinating."

#

Like, we all understand, right

#

that they're called Forerunners and modern humans are called Reclaimers

#

not because Forerunner is their actual name

#

but its also referring to just humans

#

two different generations

#

or I guess with the Halo 3 terminals, two different groups

#

but as different as Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon

#

Like, in the current continuity, all these terms have wildly more complicated or contrived origins, or are just plain unfitting

bronze delta
#

That was the original idea, yes. But even with humanity being "Reclaimers" - you can reclaim something that was left to you; in this case the Mantle. Spark's comment on "all our lost time" is the progress of humanity toward reclaiming that Mantle, as the Monitors would be in service of Humanity, now that the Forerunners are gone

orchid kettle
#

Like I said, its all retcons

#

its all making everything more complicated

#

but its not making it a better story

#

being incoherent isn't deep

#

Like, ultimately

#

the function of humans and forerunners being different

#

is so the Didact can be our enemy in Halo 4

#

thats it

#

There's otherwise no real story to it

bronze delta
#

I suppose it is a retcon. But, myself personally, I like it much better. It's not all that more complicated, and it does clear up a lot of problems that would have been present if Forerunners = Humans

orchid kettle
#

Ancient Humanity in the greg bear novels are just a non-entity

#

we dont know anything about them except how they relate to Forerunners

dusty ferry
#

I'd love more lore on them

orchid kettle
#

They don't have culture, values, or whatever

#

Forerunners do

bronze delta
#

No, we know that they were the favored of the Precursors, and that's more or less what put them at odds with the Forerunners

orchid kettle
#

They really don't

dusty ferry
#

I want MOAR

orchid kettle
#

There's nothing to them outside of their relationship to the Actual ancient super civilization that matters

#

Its just so the Didact can be our enemy

#

And I mean like

#

the Didact is crazy anyway

#

His ultimate culmination in the franchise was shooting Earth with a big doomsday laser

dusty ferry
#

The most they have is that the technology is used in the Hellcat Mjolnir

orchid kettle
#

he was just a one-off summer blockbuster villain

orchid kettle
bronze delta
# orchid kettle What exactly *are* the problems

How did Humanity survive the Halo's firing if it wipes out all life in the Galaxy?
How could the Master Chief have been the one to fire the rings 100,000 years ago?
Is it just the Master Chief that can activate Forerunner stuff, as the rest of the UNSC needs a spoofer to open a door?

I'm sure I could think of more that would have been presented by that line

orchid kettle
#

The same way every other race did, they were reseeded. If you buy Paul's interpretation, then they very specifically only reseed the humans they found on Earth, and not proper "Forerunners"

#

Again, Master Chief clearly wasn't the one who fired the rings.

#

And we see Miranda and Johnson operate the rings later in the series

bronze delta
#

That's not clear from Halo: CE

orchid kettle
#

Its all humans

bronze delta
#

We also see Sangheili operating Forerunner technology. What's up with that?

orchid kettle
#

I mean, yeah, and thats true regardless

#

In CE, its never really said only Chief has special permission

#

Spark just says retrieving the Index physically is a right reserved for the Reclaimer

#

Otherwise, there's no hint necessarily that the ring can only be fired by a human

#

Cortana just stole the index

#

thats why Spark is after us

#

Its just in the Flood novel, Chief experiences a weird sort of synergy with the bridge controls from Halo, with Cortana confused at how he operated the controls like he already knew them

#

but I imagine in CE, he just pressed a button and it worked

bronze delta
#

He remarks that somehow he just knew what needed to be done

#

But if Chief is able to just activate a bridge that easy, why did the Marines have trouble with the doors?

orchid kettle
#

Which doors?

bronze delta
#

The ones that they needed the spoofer for, where they're ambushed by the Flood. It's even remarked that the Covenant locked the doors; how did the Covenant know how, but the Forerunners didn't know how to unlock them?

orchid kettle
#

Well Like I said, only The Flood has the weird synergy with forerunner tech thing.

#

In the context of purely CE

bronze delta
#

The whole theme sounds cool on paper, but in execution it falls apart. Especially with the repeated notions that the Chief is somehow special, and somehow a reincarnation of the Forerunner who fired the Array

orchid kettle
#

there's no mention of Chief being a master key

#

Again, I dont think its a reincarnation of Chief

#

Either Spark saying "you" in terms of humanity as a whole, or Chief merely resembles a Forerunner in his armor.

bronze delta
#

That's certainly the implications that Spark puts forward in CE. He is very direct toward Chief, not humanity as a whole

orchid kettle
#

Spark does call it a Class 2 combat skin

bronze delta
#

And remarks with some confusion that it's insufficient

orchid kettle
#

He's not talking to anyone else

#

Of course Im sure in the current continuity, Chief is somehow an Iso-Didact reincarnation

bronze delta
#

"Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?"

orchid kettle
bronze delta
#

As well the direct mention of Chief asking him a question. Not Humanity in general, but Chief.

orchid kettle
#

Again, no he doesnt

#

he doesnt say

#

"Master John Halo-117, why are you not exploding the galaxy"

bronze delta
#

"Last time, you asked me, if it were my choice, would I do it? Having had considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed. There is no choice. We must activate the ring."

orchid kettle
#

Its purposefully just "you"

bronze delta
#

That's... very direct

orchid kettle
#

Guilty Spark is clearly talking about the past, and the player knows at this point that Chief has never been here before.

bronze delta
#

As opposed to "Last time I was asked"

orchid kettle
#

Like, you can have characters be "confused" or "rampant", its just in this case, it's building intrigue

#

As opposed to a handwave for what is meant to be an important moment

#

Guilty Spark mistaking Chief for a Forerunner is clearly the intention of the scene

#

Guilty Spark having the camera zoom in on him while music scores dramatically as he says "You are Forerunner" is not meant to just be him going crazy

bronze delta
#

I'm sure they were driving towards it having been a past life of the Chief. But that just does not work in execution.

Rather, Spark recognizing the geas of the Iso-Didact within Chief makes that recognition make perfect sense. Spark's rampancy and his confusion clear up a lot of the dialogue. We know Chief isn't actually the Iso-Didact, but to Spark's rampant perception he registers as such.

orchid kettle
#

Again, there's really no reason to think its anything beyond further proof of humans and forerunners being related, because Chief is confused as one

bronze delta
orchid kettle
#

Yes?

#

Thats literally the point of the sentence?

bronze delta
#

That... doesn't make sense if he's perfectly sane.

orchid kettle
#

Like, Im sorry, did you just not play 3

bronze delta
#

Let's not.

orchid kettle
#

Johnson is about to fire the ring, which will destroy the ring and the Ark

#

Guilty Spark is clearly upset, yelling "Unacceptable!"

#

and starts blasting people

#

He's clearly already turned on you

#

And he keeps insinuating humans are forerunners throughout the boss fight

bronze delta
#

What does make more sense is if (this is an if in this) "Forerunner" is a title, not a species. That Humanity is "Forerunner" as holders of the Mantle of Responsibility, that the inherited all that [Insert Species Here] left to them.

Not that they're the same species that built the rings and fired them 100,000 years ago.

orchid kettle
#

Yes! Forerunner IS a title

#

Those who came before

bronze delta
#

Not in the games, no

orchid kettle
#

before modern humans

bronze delta
#

Forerunner is treated as the species

#

The Ancestors (Ancient Humanity) are not Forerunners, they were their rivals

orchid kettle
#

And forerunner constructs never call us "Humans"

#

they call us Reclaimer

#

our species name isnt Reclaimer

bronze delta
#

No, they call us humans

orchid kettle
#

its a title

#

Its the same thing with Forerunners

#

its what the word Forerunner and Reclaimer mean

bronze delta
#

The Didact calls us "human" quite often. Armigers call us "human" as well. Even Spark remarked on "Human history", not "Reclaimer History"

orchid kettle
#

its really not that complicated

orchid kettle
#

Right before saying

#

"our lost time!"

#

343 Guilty Spark: (voice breaks, then readjusts itself) "-destroy your inheritance!"

#

343 Guilty Spark: "Accept your le-gacy!"

#

343 Guilty Spark: "Think of you-ou-ou-our forefathers!"

bronze delta
#

It currently is, if those lines are taken as they are. Because we are not the Forerunners, we did not come before, we are Reclaiming what was left to us. We were not the ones before and can never be Forerunner.

Unless it is clarified that "Forerunner" is the title, which even then still makes no sense because who are we Forerunning?

orchid kettle
#

Dude, this whole time, Ive been arguing from the perspective of the original games

bronze delta
#

That's irrelevant now

orchid kettle
#

I really dont care what later material changes

#

because I know it did

orchid kettle
#

Media will forever exist in its own context

bronze delta
#

It is, and to be frank I'm exhausted limiting to a theme that was and is no longer

orchid kettle
#

You can pretend CE means something different because a bunch of unrelated people said so

#

But the work speaks for itself

#

Thats just how art works

#

Like, every single Halo game is in its very own instance of the Halo universe

#

Even the bungie games

bronze delta
#

The are all the part of a greater whole

orchid kettle
#

the state of Halo in the creators' heads isnt quite the same going from CE, to 2, to 3, and so on

#

But those states still have value, because thats what the game grew into.

orchid kettle
#

But the work itself

#

on its own merits

bronze delta
#

It absolutely is about the timeline.... But okay. 2552. "We are Forerunner." Who are we Forerunning?

orchid kettle
#

The point of that scene is a reveal

dusty ferry
#

there is no way the forerunners called themselves that in their time

orchid kettle
#

Sure, Guilty Spark himself has no reason to spout exposition when he's trying to kill you

#

but this is just Bungie speaking through him

#

GS isn't real, after all

#

He only ever says what the creators want him to say

dusty ferry
#

Besides, I'm 80% sure forerunner during CE was supposed to be referencing Marathon

orchid kettle
#

and this is meant to be the capstone on that mystery

dusty ferry
#

or so i heard

bronze delta
orchid kettle
#

which is kinda fun to think about even 12 years later

bronze delta
#

That just complicates it further

orchid kettle
#

its probably why they originally envisioned Cortana going crazy

#

just like the AI in Marathon

#

its also probably why the game keeps calling Chief a Cyborg or why Marines say "Hey look! Its a Mark V!"

#

because MJOLNIR Mark IV Cyborg comes from Marathon

#

Its kinda neat to think about it

dusty ferry
#

thats kinda sad

orchid kettle
#

And thats the fun of separating a work from today's context

#

and putting it back in the context of 2001

#

CE has plenty of ideas that just fell off from the franchise over time

#

But I think they're still valuable and worth being remembered and considered

bronze delta
orchid kettle
#

one big thing I miss is the retro sci-fi aesthetic of CE

#

Halo 2 and 3 still have it to a degree, but you can tell they're trying to move a bit closer to military realism

#

especially in 2 when everything is the drabbest olive green and the guns are pitch black

#

apparently because Bungie kept playing around with the idea of Halo becoming a tactical shooter

#

which im glad didnt pan out

spiral jewel
#

I hadn't read the story involving Fracture: Firewall but how exactly did the Created react to Cortana's sacrifice /final death? I assume that there were mixed feelings...

dusty ferry
#

It appears the created state has balkanized

#

Sloan (i think that's the ai guy from Halo 5 on Meridian) is considering weird bio-cyborg warrior bodies now.

spiral jewel
#

Weird...

orchid kettle
#

thats probably all they really can do

#

try and pretend Cortana is fine

#

rule over their world as best they can

dusty ferry
#

I like the idea, and how it builds up to Infection

orchid kettle
#

hoping nothing bad enough to warrant a Guardian happens

#

because I assume they dont have Guardian access anymore

#

there honestly may still be human colonies under created rule

dusty ferry
#

I'm personally hoping we get a cod zombies style infection horde mode

orchid kettle
#

who dont realize they could easily rebel

dusty ferry
#

where bots are like minor zombies, and players are mega zombies

#

That would probably be hard to implement though

#

Side thing: what are some of your favorite Mjolnir variants based on the lore

#

I like Erinyes because it seems perfectly tailored for anti-created work

orchid kettle
#

the Lone wolves core is growing on me a lot

#

I dunno how it works

#

but I like that its made of duct tape

#

and seems to best fit Spartan-IVs, and all their crazy augs that let them go weeks barely having to eat or sleep

dusty ferry
#

I have seen theories range from Sangheeli tech being used (which is actually a common theme now), to it only having shields in gameplay and being a side grade of SPI

orchid kettle
#

I like shieldless spartans in weaker supersuits

#

The shields are great for like, a video game health bar

#

but I think reading a book, you don't really want the character to convey how much damage they're taking with like

#

"Oh no, my shields are going from 90% to 85%!"

#

when you could instead describe what it feels like to have a Brute kick you in the gut or something

bronze delta
dusty ferry
#

how?

bronze delta
#

Best example I have is from one of my stories:

Lut assaulted her again, and her shields brushed aside two blows. As he reared for a kick, Saia thrust forward. Her sword slid across his chest, energy arcing as the plasma put his shields under duress. She quickly pulled back as he pitched away from her, thrown off balance. Her blade flashed, landing several rapid hits until his shields burst with a blinding flash.

dusty ferry
#

you have stories?

orchid kettle
#

but if the shields weren't there

#

you'd have a cool gash across the armor

#

😏

bronze delta
dusty ferry
#

can i has links? I've been prototyping one myself based very heavily in the technology of Halo (among other universes)

bronze delta
dusty ferry
#

awesome

orchid kettle
#

I need to write more

#

i get very distracted by new scenarios i think up

bronze delta
#

A lot of my time is research. I make sure everything fits canonically

dusty ferry
#

Same. I've procrastinated so much by getting addicted to Infinite

orchid kettle
#

I just throw my guys in largely unrelated locations

dusty ferry
#

when i should just be looking at armor lore for my work

#

because novel engineering is cool

orchid kettle
#

there are times though where I kinda prefer to ignore the lore

dusty ferry
#

but being able to say what the tech is descended from is even more neat

orchid kettle
#

Like according to the old halo Encyclopedia, ODSTs have motion sensors

#

but I feel like because of Halo 3 ODST, the public perception of an ODST is that they don't have that

#

and kinda in general I think its more fun when your character doesn't have so many HUD elements to keep track of

dusty ferry
#

I might someday write something for a fractures timeline

#

Probably the Gundam one

orchid kettle
#

You know, instead of seeing a red dot on your screen, you could hear something, swear you saw something move in the corner of your eye

#

Like, I know shields and motion sensors are canon, but they're mainly used in-game as abstractions

icy yoke
#

Without shields armor would look like burnt toast

icy yoke
#

ODST armor is more sophisticated than typical Marine Army combat armor.

#

SPI armor more than ODST.

#

MJOLNIR leaps bounds above

dusty ferry
#

where does Nightfall fit here?

icy yoke
#

Locke was Spartan IV so his first armor was prior member UNSC ONI branch. He was folded into the Spartan branch. Since the Spartan IV came from adult volunteers

bronze delta
dusty ferry
#

ahh, i meant in terms of usage given its a powered system

icy yoke
#

Like acidic rain, humidity

bronze delta
#

Specifically Alpha Halo, so likely high temperatures

#

extreme high temperatures

icy yoke
#

Armor is powered to some extent. Enough to run Visors, camera sensors, etc

#

And hydraulics for movement

dusty ferry
#

understandable

carmine sleet
obsidian thistle
main zephyr
#

We've seen examples of Marines with motion sensors in their gear as well, several times

#

Makes sense that ODSTs would have it as well

orchid kettle
#

Bad Blood and Halo 5 concept art for odsts makes it seem like 343 has been heavily considering giving ODSTs exoskeletons in their armor

#

either retroactively or as a post-war upgrade

orchid kettle
#

I personally like the idea that ODST armor is otherwise just vacuum-rated marine armor painted black

#

for simplicity's sake

dusty ferry
#

I mean lore wise, there is a vaccum rated marine set somewhere

orchid kettle
#

But is it painted black

#

that's how you know the guy is special

dusty ferry
#

true

#

Black armor is always a sign of advancement

orchid kettle
#

granted in Halo 3/ODST, the ODST suit looks way more complicated than what I described

#

compared to like, H2 or Reach, where odsts really are just recolored marines in sealed helmets

#

and because of the 2007-2009 era graphics, I have a hard time figuring out how the trooper even puts the suit on

dusty ferry
#

When have SIV's actually succeeded?

orchid kettle
#

🤔

#

I actually don't know

#

I guess Osiris saves Blue Team if that counts

#

Bad Blood is funny because its like Alpha-Nine purely messing up and making the situation worse for everybody involved

dusty ferry
#

Like, I guess Spartan OPS counts kinda

orchid kettle
#

and I guess Spartan Ops was largely a big waste of time

#

since the Absolute Record storyline eventually fizzles out

#

but I guess Halsey not getting to it is a victory in and of itself

#

at least in their eyes

#

I wanted to make a team of IV OCs myself at one point

#

Like I didn't like any IV character at the time, but I thought I could prove that the supersoldiers having different backstories and emotional hangups could work wonders

#

Which I still think is a potential strength of IVs over IIs or IIIs

#

but the series just hasn't really realized that potential

uneven maple
#

That's actually a very good point
... but the same could be said for the few remaining orions

orchid kettle
#

Yeah but they're smelly and old now

#

Its also kinda debatable how superhuman they really are

#

when Chief punches a man, the man dies

#

when Johnson punches a bouncer in Contact Harvest, its just a broken nose

#

I always saw Johnson as having been a really good soldier, Boren's syndrome or not

crimson grove
#

Hey guys I had a Question...You guys have any idea on what the 'Logic Plague' Possibly is ???

#

I would like to hear any theories...

unique rune
crimson grove
#

@unique rune Thanks Dude...It was bugging me for a while...

#

I just read the article...But it doesn't explain like what the flood do to the AIs...

dusk jetty
#

The logic plague is a bit confusing, I had to read it several times to get a grasp

crimson grove
#

Care to give me a gist of it ?

dusk jetty
#

The key concept, is that it’s less of an infection, and more of a idea

unique rune
#

The Flood doesn’t physically do anything to an AI or other intelligence

#

That’s kinda the whole point

orchid kettle
#

In the halo 3 terminal, isnt it just the gravemind convincing MB he has free will

#

and should totally use that free will to help a bro out

unique rune
#

It’s pretty much just the Flood going “okay so hear me out”

crimson grove
#

So the flood make them do their dirty work by manipulating them by introducing free will into their AI Commands ???

unique rune
#

No

crimson grove
#

Can't the AI choose not to 'Hear them Out' ???

unique rune
#

The Flood uses various forms of argumentation and rhetoric to convince an AI or other consciousness to work in a way that benefits the Flood

crimson grove
#

Other consciousness ??? This can work on Biological Beings Too ???

unique rune
#

This doesn’t necessarily need to manifest as directly helping the Flood, with the Didact it scrambled him mentally to cause disarray within the Forerunners

crimson grove
#

So it basically Breaks their mind ?

#

Like make them go Crazy ?

unique rune
#

No
The logic plague isn’t one single thing with one single outcome

crimson grove
#

So it has Multiple Outcomes ?

#

Man...My Brain Hurts...

dusty ferry
#

It's basically asking someone to do the thing, and they do it

unique rune
#

It’s a broad spectrum of stuff the Flood does to cause a sentient thinking being to help them

crimson grove
#

So they are making AIs Sentient?

unique rune
#

No

#

Smart AI and Forerunner ancillas are already capable of sentient thought
Their lack of organic physical form renders them normally immune to the Flood’s effects

The logic plague is used to bypass this and make them work in the interests of the Flood

bronze delta
obtuse crow
#

Gravemind*

heady geyser
unique rune
#

Aight c’mon
Functionally they’re pretty much the same
I don’t think it’s worth splitting hairs over here

crimson grove
#

@heady geyser So both Primordials and Flood can spread logic plague ???

#

@bronze delta Kinda explains his obsession with poofing humans...

unique rune
#

The Flood are a mutated form of Precursor
The Primordial was a Precursor who merged itself into the Flood’s collective consciousness

crimson grove
#

@unique rune Weren't the Flood deceased Primordials ?

main zephyr
#

Precursors

#

the Primordial was a single entity

#

And they weren't deceased, they broke their bodies down into genetic data, data which became corrupted

crimson grove
#

@main zephyr So all the Precursors had a collective consciousness?

bronze delta
bronze delta
steep ether
# crimson grove Care to give me a gist of it ?

idk if this is a good analogy, but cortana going rampant is sorta similar because she turned on her creators (humanity), and her doing her own thing is kinda like how the flood made other ai do what they want. part of the reasoning for this is also because the gravemind tried to infect her w/ the logic plague and that permanently affected her.

crimson grove
#

@steep ether I heard Cortana say in Halo 4 that only human AIs went Rampant...So Rampantcy isn't just a Human AI Phenomenon ?So Its applicable to all the AI Constructs in the Halo Universe ?

steep ether
#

yes, but it works different between different species

crimson grove
#

Oh...Ok

steep ether
#

for human ai, after about seven years, smart ai gather too much info for them to handle and they "discover" more emotions that they can't handle. basically become too human per say.

crimson grove
#

So Rampantcy is a built in countermeasure ?

steep ether
#

Forerunner AIs are also susceptible to rampancy. However, given the Forerunners' advanced technology, it is likely that Forerunner AIs succumbing to the condition is not due to limits in their memory maps but rather similar philosophical reasons which can also result in rampancy for a human AI: extended self-reflection resulting from loneliness and/or lack of intellectual stimuli or duties to accomplish. In the few known cases of Forerunner AIs becoming rampant without manipulation by the Flood, it appeared to take millennia to develop and appeared in subtler ways, shown by 343 Guilty Spark's loneliness and gradual personality fragmentation[16] and 2401 Penitent Tangent's lapse in his duties.[17] However, with the right trigger a rampant Forerunner AI could become just as violent as a human one.

#

im too lazy too type

steep ether
#

and it eventually terminates its self

crimson grove
#

So the AI basically starts thinking for itself ?

unique rune
#

No

steep ether
#

smart ai can already do that

unique rune
#

The AI is already capable of doing that

Rampancy in human AI is a result of them running out of space to continue growth

steep ether
#

it starts to basically overthink everything

crimson grove
#

So Rampantcy can be cured by extending their storage ?

steep ether
#

no?

unique rune
#

When it runs out of space stuff starts to get overly interlinked and too dense and it basically starts to short circuit

#

Rampancy can be delayed by increased space but its effects aren’t known to be reversible

steep ether
#

To avoid this, an AI typically takes corrective action by eliminating some of its neural linkages preemptively.

#

im going to make another horrible analogy

unique rune
#

It’s like if you had a tree growing inside a small room

It starts with plenty of space to grow and expand, but you reach a point where it’ll end up blocking out its own sunlight and possibly entangling and choking itself off as it grows

#

You can prune the tree to clean up problematic branches and move it to a bigger room to give it more time but eventually it’ll still become too big to continue growing and it’ll just die

steep ether
#

its like hypothermia. once you're cold enough and on the brink of death, your body directs the rest or its energy to producing warmth. this leaves no energy to operate other bodily functions and that combined with the cold kills you off

steep ether
dusty ferry
#

another known way around this is being inside a lot of tractors

steep ether
#

?

dusty ferry
#

its a thing where an AI beats rampancy by being in a ton of tractors

#

basically, it just uploaded stuff it didn't need into nonessential hardware

last anchor
#

Mack on Harvest specifically.
Artificially increasing the space avalible by dispersing their consiousness through multiple smaller computer systems.

dusty ferry
#

I wanted to say harvest, but I wasn’t sure

last anchor
#

Twas Harvest yes

#

Rotational support between two Smart AIs to allow for extended lifetimes.

bronze delta
icy yoke
#

Covenant don't make SMART AI because they don't need to. They have a caste if servant labor for demanding tasks. And technology is sufficiently advanced they have little in way challenge to their technological supremacy

#

lifespan of a dumb AI is limited only by their own hardware's endurance .... but can be transferred any new computer. The more powerful the computer....so on

last anchor
#

Also the Covenant considered most AI heretical do to some nasty run ins with rampant Forerunner god-machines via the Logic Plauge

hollow belfry
#

so to all the halo lore nerds: why do spartans use ARs when they are supposed to the the best? ARs are like the most basic and one of the weaker weapons... why not give them something more powerful? like a BR or atleast a modded AR like the ones in halo 5?

#

also is the BR canonically better? because the marine "heavy" has an BR and the normal one has an AR

last anchor
#

Gameplay doesn’t represent canonical capabilities

#

Also Spartans use whatever they have on hand and the AR is often the most avalible

hollow belfry
#

oh

#

thx

#

can I ask you another question

last anchor
#

The MA5 series fires a 7.62 round. In the modern world it’s considered a battle rifle

#

Go

hollow belfry
#

So if the Infinity is considered the best warship in the UNSC and it literally went through a covenant battlecruiser, how did the dreadnought literally shatter it with the bow?

#

where did the shields go? where were the incredibly powerful MACs?

last anchor
#

Overwhelming numbers, the sacrifice of five Banished ships and their crews, and the last year plus of combat with no resupply

hollow belfry
#

also whats the general size of the banished navy?

last anchor
#

Big

hollow belfry
last anchor
#

That’s all we know

hollow belfry
#

big?

#

ok

last anchor
#

Big. There’s lots of them

hollow belfry
#

I consider myself a semi halo nerd but there is still a lot to know wow

last anchor
#

Considering that they include all that’s left of Doisacs population…

hollow belfry
#

yeah

#

also

#

roughly how many dreadnoughts did the banished posess and were they all there in the battle for zeta halo?

#

also where did the 10 strident/anlance frigates go? and if the Infinity was the best, shouldnt it have a sizable escort fleet of other powerful warships like the Autumn and Vindicator classes?

#

if you find me annoying...

#

thats because I am

#

sry

abstract yarrow
#

In Halo Rubicon Protocal it’s mentioned that the fleet at Zeta Halo is the biggest they’ve ever seen since the Covenant war. So, that’s a lot.

They’re never going to give numbers to it. But the idea is that they are basically a secular version of the Covenant and massively outnumber the UNSC.

I don’t think that makes much sense given they don’t include the Swords of Sanghelios and should be excluding all the religious Covenant. Or that the Created were singling them out for destruction for an entire year including destroying their homeworld. I think you just have to accept the premise even if it is incredibly silly.

dense falcon
#

Bigger than this fleet?

dusk jetty
#

I find that extremely unlikely

orchid kettle
#

since he's probably treated like a legendary hero

#

and once they get large enough, you can kinda just bully smaller, undecided clans into joining you

#

Regardless if they still cling to the Covenant's religion or not. There's honestly probably not a ton of believers in the Jiralhanae left, given, what it was only really introduced to them 40 years ago

#

its not something deeply entrenched in their culture

#

I then assume every other species is a Merc who thinks working for Atriox will lead to the best plunder and pay

abstract yarrow
#

Oh, in the Encyclopedia they clarify that. He was already the ruler of Doisac and all the brutes. He then led a war against Cortana and the Created. For some reason she wasn’t able to beat them with Prometheans and EMP so after several warning she destroyed the planet.

The issue is that most of those 17 billions brutes and ships would have been on or near the planet when Cortana destroyed it. They had all of a few seconds as we see in the cutscene.

Yeah but it’s not just brutes. There’s the full clown car. Like I don’t know what self respecting elite would join a bunch of Brute nationalists who want a new homeworld.

orchid kettle
#

if he has a reputation with being generous when it comes to rewarding useful soldiers

orchid kettle
#

instead of acting like their loyal henchmen

#

or if they're looking to die in battle

#

Their whole purpose as a species was about carrying out the Prophets' wars, after all

abstract yarrow
#

The mercenaries shouldn’t outnumber the more nationalist and religious members of the other species.

It was firmly established that they hate eachother and we’re only kept together by shared belief in the Great Journey. To depict elite as okay with brutes is to tone down the bad Blood.

orchid kettle
#

Grunts may also jump at the chance, if the Banished make good on their promise of respecting anyone regardless of species if they prove themselves

#

either that or there are just rogue Grunt breeders selling the poor guys into slavery by the shipload

#

kinda like whats his face from Cole Protocol

#

where he was breeding grunts to build up his own invasion army

#

I kinda figure stuff like that is how every random Covenant remnant leader seems to have a million Grunts

orchid kettle
#

I kinda just accept it as

#

"Look we want this enemy type in the game"

#

but Elites seem like theyd be the target of every other race's hatred

#

They were the ones who kept the Grunts enslaved, they acted superior to Jackals all the time, obviously I don't need to explain the beef with Brutes

abstract yarrow
#

Yeah but why would they bend the knee to brutes when they could just have their own government?

Especially when Atriox goals are die for me so I can take a super weapon. Besides aren’t there a lot of sinister undertones?

Isn’t that just propaganda that they’re all about freedom?

It’s more that you get the impression that this is red covenant and a large bulk of the former covenant has joined him. But ostensibly they’re just mercenaries out for pay.

Like the elites in particular are really going to go to war with the hero who freed them from the Covenant?

I mean I might be completely wrong and that is going to be an issue for the Banished. That it’s not a good idea to hold everything together with just blunt militarism.

icy yoke
orchid kettle
abstract yarrow
#

Oh the Rubicon Protocal makes it clear. There was no way Infinity was winning that fight. What you see in game was basically a narrow lens and you couldn’t see the hundreds of Banished warships they flew right into.

orchid kettle
#

but its another thing for his subordinates to actually follow them

#

especially when he disappears for six months

#

Like, the Brutes love what a badass he is

#

not necessarily his entire philosophy

#

thats what I think, at least

#

Maybe everything Atriox says is a sham, but I personally don't find that very interesting

orchid kettle
abstract yarrow
#

I think he’s very sus.

If the Banished is 343 go at doing the Covenant. It makes sense if there’s a lie at the heart of it. That lie being that the “Banished will never bow to anyone again.” When in fact they’re an army of slaves being played. That’s the sort of irony I could see them doing.

It’s also very suspicious how they’re introducing the notion of AI mind controlling people. And we have this brute who knows about the Endless and totally changed Brute society. It’s not the first time AI have manipulated Covenant species. All I am saying, the Banished symbol looks a lot like Mendicants eyes and why does Atriox have that suspicious key.

orchid kettle
#

I think if you wanted to be charitable, maybe the idea, aside from pay and glory, is to very specifically fight and kill Spartans

orchid kettle
#

I just don't think they're that way now

#

Though maybe they are with how much Escharum is pushing the Atriox worship

#

Like I assume Atriox's ideal version of the Banished is basically like MSF or Diamond Dogs from Metal Gear Solid, just this autonomous private army that does whatever it wants on its own terms, with no real allegiance to any country or state or whatever

#

of course in both cases, they feature this charismatic leader that's basically treated like a god among men

#

also yeah, its funny how Escharum says "The Banished will not bow to anyone!"

#

while making Tremonius bow

hollow belfry
#

You arm your best warship with 6 MULSANNE FRIGATES? They don’t even have macs…

icy yoke
# hollow belfry 6 MULSANNE????

Battle group at Installation 07 consisted Infinity and 6 Mulsanne frigates. I don't think they could fit in Infinitys drop bay

abstract yarrow
#

In Rubicon Protocal they’re a bit more emphatic although most of its in Atriox propaganda towers or in his cut audio logs.

The Banished are brute nationalists because they want Zeta Halo as a new homeworld for the brutes. So its actually a brute nation just one that has a ton of mercenaries from other species in it. So really they are actually a state just one where that isn’t creating friction with the other species because reasons.

It’s a bit suspicious that this hyper intelligent brute just appears seeing through the lies of the Covenant and remaking their society in a way that seems to be serving the goals of the Endless. For example in 40k that’s a bit like the Ethereals showing up and all the Tau slavishly following them. It’s very odd and they are making that a mystery. Mind control and manipulation like the Logic Olague or what Irratus does is possible in Halo.

hollow belfry
#

I mean

#

But why

hollow belfry
#

But Mulsanne has different shape

#

So maybe

icy yoke
#

Mulsanne class armed with laser weapon....which like the MAC requires orientation fore.

hollow belfry
#

That’s a good point actually

dusty ferry
#

honestly, UNSC ship planning was always bad

#

no one ever saw the Rhino tank plasma turret, and thought, "Hey lets put money into this and slap it on ships."

last anchor
#

More complicated than that

#

Also, too small scale wise

#

Plasma requires a lot of internal material to operate safely. Hence the shape of many Covenant vessels

dusty ferry
#

I mean, I get that, but simultaneously, there is like 300+ Mjolnir variants by 2559 and the Rhino itself just kinda disappears

last anchor
last anchor
#

Plus the Kodiac exists

dusty ferry
#

Isn't the kodiac conventional ammunition?

last anchor
#

TECHNUCALLY the Rhino we see in game was an experimental model anyway

obtuse crow
last anchor
#

Normally they have 320mm conventional cannons

obtuse crow
last anchor
#

There’s a normal one with conventional shells

dusty ferry
#

It's just wack that none of the technology is ever seen again. Although I might be missing something in one of the books

last anchor
#

You are

#

Quite a bit actually

dusty ferry
#

I'm sorry that the local library never has the halo books in stock

#

Been trying to read them for literal years

obtuse crow
#

Armament for the rhino was a
320mm XM4600 Zeus plasma munition howitzer.

#

That was rare back in 2531.

dusty ferry
#

I'm just gonna assume that piece of equipment got cole protocoled for my own sanity

bronze delta
icy yoke
dusty ferry
#

It just seems like with enough R&D a useful anti shield supplementary weapon

#

but i get you

tropic forge
dusty ferry
#

oh is that how it worked?

#

huh

#

because all the evidence i have say its reverse engineered stuff

tropic forge
#

The M145D Rhino was an early success in reverse engineering efforts of Covenant technology using captured heavy fuel rods in a modified artillery shell fired from a custom-built howitzer.

#

from the 2022 Halo Encyclopedia.

dusty ferry
#

i wish i had the book on hand

#

mine is still in my dormroom

icy yoke
#

The Rhino used reverse engineering of fuel rod guns. So UNSC put plasma cartridge in an existing artillery shell. It actually works well against shielded targets.

gaunt oakBOT
#

Keeping it clean, Brute style. atrioxmini

dusty ferry
#

i just never associated it with fuel rods given i remember it firing blue rounds

icy yoke
# dusty ferry It just seems like with enough R&D a useful anti shield supplementary weapon

Anyway. Against shields MAC does well... it overloads shield grid allowing opportunity to attack additional weapons. basic UNSC strategy was to Damage/overload shielded ships by MAC then consecutive MAC shots or barrage of missiles. Bear in mind UNSC conventional explosives are far better than today's. US developed CL20, explosive 20% more powerful than C4. UNSC has octave. A new explosive several times better than today's plastic. So even an archer missile alone is

dusty ferry
#

i always assumed it was based on an attempt to upscale a plasma rifle

icy yoke
#

Plasma needs feedstock.

#

Perhaps UNSC didn't think it worthwhile to develop plasma weaponry except on experimental basis. That also why Covenant ships are so big.... carrying the load out needed sustain their weapons

dusty ferry
#

Yeah, but MACs are in general the primary armrament. having something to help take the shield out would be a very helpful anti ship weapon

#

though i do get the doctrine descision to focus on cheap frigates to get more MACs onto the field

#

if ships aren't going to survive, getting as many as possible out is the right action

icy yoke
#

That's why Infinity carried 2. Fore and Aft. Primarily Humanity never encountered much in way threat from someone else. Til Covenant. Which forced them to adopt new strategies.

dusty ferry
#

and the 10 frigates in the docking bays

#

and if you take cues from star wars, the Mammoths are good enough for space combat

icy yoke
#

UNSC focused on weapons they had available. Again they were painstakingly reverse engineering as much Covenant tech as possible. Thus energy shields would be approachable in short timeframe. I argue MAC is an ideal weapon because it's non dispersed energy is kinetic. Covenant had energy shields to protect against energy weapons... and small kinetic impact. In the numerous races they subjugated, presumably none ever thought to shoot at them by firing a stick

#

Real solution would have been to arm Frigates with a side mounted MAC. But immense energy and recoil, the MAC is built into ship frame. So better solution is a batter of smaller MACs along the side Hull for broadside engagement.

#

But that's what missiles are for and UNSC ships carry alot of them.

#

Octanitrocubane is a real explosive. 25% more powerful than HMX.

dusty ferry
#

how strong is HMX?

icy yoke
#

HMX is used in missile warhead in real life. Less than a pound can blow up your car

dusty ferry
#

damn

#

strong

icy yoke
#

Explosivity is called RE Factor

#

Ammonium nitrate (fertilizer bomb) mixed with diesel has a RE of 0.32

#

Trinitrotoluene or as we call it TNT

#

TNT: 1

#

RDX: 1.34

#

C4 is RDX...91 % mass.

#

Octagen aka HMX grade: 1.7

#

CL20: 1.9

#

Octanitrocubane: 2.38

#

Stuff is 2.3 times more powerful than TNT

#

So a Salvo of Archer missiles could do some damage.

dusty ferry
#

Huh, i guess i underestimated the missile

icy yoke
#

Standpoint I don't know how large they are. Still as it goes missiles are better space weapons than guns and lasers. MACs and Lasers are line if sight weapons. Meaning where they fire is as good as where they aim. Using Pythagorean theorm ...a one degree error in aiming loses one foot of center accuracy every 60 feet of distance. For a big target, it may seem inconsequential...but at a distance of 60 miles your MAC is off by a mile.....

#

Same for a laser.

#

So accuracy has to be within 1/1000th degree accuracy. Hence why computers or AI do the shooting.

#

Worse the issue of friendly fire... if the round misses...it travels largely forever..... worse off it hits a friendly ship behind it

uneven maple
#

I feel like an idiot I've only read fall of reach the other lore I know is from my bro or hidden Xperia...

dusty ferry
#

I've only read sourcebooks like Warfleet and the 2022 encyclopedia and mythos

#

the library apparently has the halo novels, but they are always checked out

uneven maple
#

Our library has ... no Sci fi except for 1 star wars book

#

Gonna get the encyclopedia soon tho

#

BAD JOKE INCOMING

#

its supposed to be a hivemind of knowledge

obsidian thistle
#

One could say its a Halopedia of information! birthday

late whale
#

So I recently completed my first reading of Halo: Contact Harvest and...

... well, let's just say I ain't listening to Sergeant Johnson's "I know what the ladies like" line the same way anymore...

dusk jetty
#

Well, he certainly isn’t wrong when he says it.

abstract yarrow
#

Has anyone else checked out the new Firewall Intel? They started putting canon stuff in so it’s worth a read and it’s pretty important stuff hinted at.

#

They should definitely go with that format as the world building does need padding out with the changes Halo Infinite brought to the setting. I am all for learning the schematics and providence of a forklift truck; but I d prefer to get a sense of where the various factions are at in the war.

meager pier
sick current
#

What happened to Offensive Bias after he defeated Mendicant Bias?

heady geyser
#

We currently don’t know what happened to him

bronze delta
#

He lived Happily Ever After

#

J/k, after the firing of the Halo Array, Offensive Bias was assigned to Installation 07 to assist 117649 Despondent Pyre in guarding the imprisoned Xalanyn

bronze delta
meager pier
bronze delta
#

While I love the idea that the Forerunners built a ton of lies, the Flood and their solution to it (the Halo rings) I don't think is one lol, especially since the Rings destroyed Precursor stuff. I think it's more likely that what the Harbinger was referring to was the truth behind the Forerunner-Precursor war, the Mantle, and bringing that book lore into the games

sick current
fair hazel
turbid lintel
#

Ummm, so there's Human Banished now?

gilded mason
#

Now? There's been for a while

turbid lintel
#

I haven't read the recent books yet, so if it's in there, that's why

#

I'm still working on my backlog of older books.

bronze delta
#

They're mentioned in Ghosts of Reach and Divine Wind

turbid lintel
#

both newer, haven't got there yet

bronze delta
#

Veta Lopis and her Ferret team infiltrated the Banished by posing as them

turbid lintel
#

I'm working on Kilo trilogy irght now

bronze delta
#

Ahhh

#

BIG thoughts and prayers with that one

fair hazel
#

Also in rubicon protocl

turbid lintel
bronze delta
#

I am very outspoken as hating the Kilo 5 Trilogy

turbid lintel
#

oh, ok

gilded mason
turbid lintel
#

Well, I just about finished the first book, and I'm glad to have some more context for Jul so far...

fair hazel
#

There's a lot of kilo five trilogy fans i've seen

gilded mason
#

Well, there are a lot of Halo fans, so there'd be a lot of fans for several different things

bronze delta
#

I don't begrudge them that. But as someone who is meticulous about canon and making sure my writing fits it, her flippant treatment of the lore stings me

gilded mason
#

And also the really creepy writing outside of lore stuff

bronze delta
#

As well as just her basic problems as an author

turbid lintel
#

I look at all books / videos of any kind as simply 'loose' cannon.
That way, I don't get too bothered by anything.

fair hazel
#

And there are a number of lore fans i've seen who enjoy kilo-five a lot

turbid lintel
gilded mason
#

Though that's not a high bar at all

turbid lintel
gilded mason
#

Don't remember much of CH's writing so I can't comment there

bronze delta
# fair hazel And there are a number of lore fans i've seen who enjoy kilo-five a lot

And again, I don't begrudge them their preferences. That still does not change the facts and canonical issues of:

A fully-armored Spartan-III (yes, they are as strong as Spartan-II's) punching a frail old lady in the face so hard it rattles her arm up to the shoulder, and Halsey's head doesn't turn into a pulp.

Her general xenophobia and treatment of the Sangheili through direct narrative as little more than dumb animals.

Complete character 180's and her inability to properly write Halsey
Her ableism and complete inability to write a disabled character, instead having a Huragok "magically" fix her.

Her use of the Spartan-II project to prop up her own personal soapbox against the program and Catherine "Space Hitler" Halsey, which is just really terrible writing on her part whereas before this issue was presented impartially so that the reader could form their own opinions. But Traviss knows better than us.

gilded mason
#

Eyuuup, my issues with it

abstract wren
#

I like the fact that Halsey was presented as a war criminal, which she is...

bronze delta
#

She is, yes. For stealing Spartan-II assets

abstract wren
#

For creating children soldier...

bronze delta
#

And the Admiral Parangosky that signed off on that entire project was.....?

abstract wren
#

Still waiting for that to be treated more then just in one cinematic and Halo 4 only.

abstract wren
bronze delta
#

The Colonel who trained said child soldiers...?

turbid lintel
abstract wren
#

I mean it's pretty obvious what these answer are... ONI =CIA

bronze delta
#

The entire Upper Command of the UNSC and ONI who green lit the entire project?

gilded mason
bronze delta
#

You will get little argument from me that Halsey is no saint. But trying to literally paint her as Dr Mengele (that comparison is literally made) is ridiculous, childish, and completely out of left field.

gilded mason
turbid lintel
turbid lintel
bronze delta
# turbid lintel 1) That is strange for sure 2) I haven't felt that yet, but we'll see how books ...
  1. It's present in Glasslands. Look at the interactions between Phillips and Jul. You'll also see it more with the absolute raving psychopath Vaz Beloi. It is important to note that the narrative does not present his views, but states the nature of Sangheili as animals as fact.
  2. Characters like Mendez suddenly becoming this Holier-Than-Thou moral objector to the Spartans that he was so proud of, Halsey becoming a weepy, anguished wreck, etc
gilded mason
#

It becomes less "This is what the characters think" and more "This is what the author thinks"

turbid lintel
bronze delta
gilded mason
bronze delta
turbid lintel
gilded mason
#

343 can make mistakes