#halo-discussion

1 messages · Page 61 of 1

grim citrus
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This is the funniest take I heard this morning. Special pleading at its finest. 343 has to do more work with establishing lore when bungie was notoriously bad at it. A lot of the early books help out a lot of things bungie failed at.

analog salmon
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i would say bungie games established a universe really well

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as someone who has never read a halo book at least

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the sophistication of humanity and especially the portrayal of human settlements in ODST and Reach was really ace for me

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i maybe get a bit lost in the concept art that does a better job then the games in bringing the universe to life though

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leaving the broader universe / lore a mystery doesn't make it bad world building i dont think anyway

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it also avoids the lore getting messy when you try to explain too much

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but again i dont read the books so its a different audience to me anyway

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i think its fair to say 343's games rely too heavily on the extended lore but that's probably because they don't build on one another

fathom sandal
lusty wraith
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Everything I like is underrated

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Therefore Halo 2 is underrated

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😎H2

analog salmon
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otherwise he's just saying what everyone already knows, the matchmaker aims for balanced games rather then giving you skill based matches

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i cant be bothered to watch any more then 2 minutes in but the solution is either letting lower skill players get trashed or making everyone wait longer to allow for stronger skill matching

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so there is no easy solution, higher skilled players should just play ranked

fathom nimbus
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like if you lose 4 times in a row, instead of getting a balenced match you get a match were your opponents are way worse and you sweep

analog salmon
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why would the game not be able to predict the winner?

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like on what logic would a modern video game with skill rating for its players not be able to make a prediction?

fathom nimbus
analog salmon
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the implication that the game is making you win or lose because it makes a prediction is utterly absurd

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where's the evidence?

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343 have denied this and Blitz is straight up spreading false information at this point

fathom nimbus
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Cod has it as well

analog salmon
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again where is the proof this is happening in Halo Infinite when 343 has said its not?

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they have said the outcome is not determined based on any metric. some matches will not be predicted as 50%:50% odds but all they are doing is aiming for that

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i really dont see any reason to question 343 on this with zero evidence to say otherwise

fathom nimbus
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343 is just doing what is the industry norm

analog salmon
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right again what's the evidence other then you thinking its the norm lol?

fathom nimbus
analog salmon
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because the norm is balanced games since lower skill players dont like losing every game and stop playing games they constantly lose

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its a no brainer really

fathom nimbus
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Everything in modern multiplayer games is based off of engagement metrics, more time means more money

analog salmon
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its why higher skill players should play competitive focused playlists if they dont want to carry

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yes they dont want lower skill players to be put off by losing game after game

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hence the aim for balanced games, it's not some evil conspiracy

fathom nimbus
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if you lose a ton of games in a row they purposefully make unfair matches that way you dont quit

analog salmon
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okay but 343 have said they dont pre-determine the outcome of your matches and aim for balance and there's no evidence to the contrary so i recommend not listening to some youtuber over the studio themselves

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you do you though, i tried

fathom nimbus
analog salmon
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i thought blitz made an honest mistake when he was touting this stuff a while back before 343 clarified the situation so its disappointing to see him now purposefully spreading it

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it would not be hard for someone to prove with conrete evidence

fathom nimbus
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AAA mega corps lie

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A lot

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Id argue your evidence is better than mint blitz, but not concrete

analog salmon
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the fact the best evidence he's got is "the game shows you it predicts your performance" is pretty telling

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because any game which gives its players a skill rating will do that

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and he's twisting it to imply it somehow proves matches are rigged

fathom nimbus
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multiple people

open umbra
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Do you consider the problem may not be the MMR based matchmaking system, rather than the playerbase got split between each playlists?

analog salmon
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i've went 40 kills in a match of 4v4 slayer and lost, im not ignorant of how annoying Infinite's matchmaking can be

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it doesnt prove matches are rigged

fathom nimbus
analog salmon
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stop calling it SBMM for a start

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skill based team balancing and skill based matchmaking are not the same thing

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skill based team balancing can absolutely cause matches like that

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it takes 8 random players

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if 1 is really good, 3 are terrible, and 4 are okay, it can balanced the really good player by putting them with the 3 terrible players

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it's just randomly choosing players, that's the problem. there's no SBMM

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its not really hard to see how that can happen when SBMM has been turned down to 0

fathom nimbus
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I think its 100 times more likely that 343 is just doing what every other big studio is doing, rather than them being the ONLY AAA multiplayer game (besides fighting games, they have a diff system) that doesnt do it

analog salmon
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honestly i dont even believe every single AAA studio is rigging matches like you say

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its probably happened but every single game? i doubt it

fathom nimbus
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You're talking about the game that went free to play live service with a battlepass, but yet besides all those trends the match making system is just completely different guys

analog salmon
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you're ignoring the fact that if this was the case, it would be possible to prove

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and nobody is proving it

fathom nimbus
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Not saying this is the devs fault, its the suits

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the suits who only want money

analog salmon
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that assumes rigging matches is actually effective

fathom nimbus
analog salmon
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i doubt it but either way it would be possible to prove

lusty wraith
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SBMM is best for average players, above average players generally get screwed

analog salmon
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the game is much better for me with stronger SBMM

lusty wraith
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I don’t know if there’s a good modern solution other than creating a good robust ranked mode

fathom nimbus
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But it really should be somewhere in the middle where you get matches with people a little better than you so you can learn from them, and lower players can learn from you

analog salmon
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in MCC you just get stacks matched against whoever and generally ruining the game for anyone who isn't also in a stack with good players

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Infinite uses SBMM for stacks to avoid that

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which is basically the only time it uses SBMM in a meaningful way outside of ranked

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any time i get matched against a good stack in infinite, my team makes are wayyy better then normally. that's pretty solid evidence the game is aiming for 50% odds like 343 said

lusty wraith
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Yea getting MCC stacks is a rough time, but I will say there’s an element of “goofiness” in MCC games that Infinite just doesn’t have

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Like you can play a little stupid in H3 and have a great time while Infinite is just built to be more competitive

analog salmon
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yeah, to a large degree that's just the nature of Infinite's movement and such

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i dont think it could ever recreate that casual halo experience from halo 3

lusty wraith
white birch
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I do be runnin into some pretty hefty stacks during BTB matches tho...

lusty wraith
fathom sandal
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Gaming has always been unfair, making games completely fair does not equal fun. Most people play games to relax not to get continually frustrated.
I would get frustrated if I had to constantly put 30, 40 kill games just to win that's just ridiculous. Sometimes you want to play differently each game in ways that dont net you high kills like if there are multiplayer achievements, or if you saw a glitch and you wanted to test that out.
Most other fps's I've played seem to ignore skill level completely in casual/ social playlists and match similarly skilled in competitive modes.

mental trench
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Its a good idea in short sight that fair = good, but there is the perspective that casual games/modes should be made ‘casual’ and that fairness means you gotta try and put in a lot of effort every game if you want to have fun. Even then, you may not be having fun winning but rather stressed from it.

olive brook
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why is there a 60 mb mcc update

analog salmon
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the best way to avoid players having to carry by 30-40 kills to win is to not put them in lobbies with 3 players who togther can't get 10-20 kills

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i.e. SBMM

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turning off SBMM is just a solution for the players above the average who can then stomp. its a worse experience for lower skill players

mental trench
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Yes I have personally experienced that myself on Infinite. The enemy team usually has a almost Onyx tier player carrying the other 3 teammates who aren’t over 10 kills.

analog salmon
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you might like games without SBMM but in terms of retaining lower skill players, you don't think it would affect that?

mental trench
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I certainly can’t see lower tier players enjoying the current solution with SBMM

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Having to sweat every game and be destroyed isn’t exactly fun for them

analog salmon
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right but its a zero sum game. for higher skill players to win more, lower skill players must lose more?

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SBMM isn't doing anything right now

mental trench
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Infact, SBMM is why a lot of players have left mp gaming in recent years

analog salmon
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the game depending entirely on skill based team balancing

mental trench
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CoD is probably the largest example of that

analog salmon
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so you think we need to remove Skill based team balancing (since SBMM is doing nothing right now) and let lower skill players lose more

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you need to understand what your asking for

mental trench
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I think personally casual games shouldn’t be fair but random

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If you want a high octane polished experience with fairness then you should play a comp mode

analog salmon
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right but in terms of player retention do you think lower skill players losing more games is good or bad?

mental trench
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or at least introduce a middle ground

analog salmon
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good players can already play ranked in infinite and get balanced games

coarse dagger
mental trench
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If you quit games because you lose a lot then idk why you’re playing mp games

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It’s unfortunately something we’ve all had to experience and it’s what pushes people to become better

analog salmon
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your talking about removing the option for low skill players to get balanced games in social

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when high skill players already have competitive if they dont want to carry

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you understand the problem?

mental trench
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Maybe introduce something for low players then

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There is always another solution than SBMM making everyones experiences not fun

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What is more important fun or player retention? 🤔

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It’s sorta a catch 22 here

analog salmon
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the solution is strong SBMM to stop high and low skill players being in the same lobby

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its not a catch 22, its a trade off

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you then having longer matchmaking times

mental trench
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It is a catch 22…

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It’s not a worthy trade off imo

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Both things are negative

magic night
analog salmon
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i would say the SBMM is so weak that it's causing more players to be put off playing then if they just used skill bands to stop so much skill variance in one game

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but 343 presumably think that causes matchmaking to take too long

mental trench
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SBMM is tricked easily though so it’s hard to get around these things

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It’s very hard to get this right

analog salmon
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well i agree with the last bit

mental trench
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If someone can make a new account to trick sbmm into thinking they’re a newbie then, does it serve its purpose

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or is that just a minor inconvenience with the system, a flaw

analog salmon
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i would rather just detect smurfing then remove SBMM because of it

mental trench
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Detecting smurfing is hard to do in itself

fathom sandal
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The retention shown on steam is an indicator whatever infinite was doing did not help. 98% Players gone. I know xbox numbers are not there but I'd assume rentention isn't that good eitehr

mental trench
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I don’t think anything on the internet can completely block it out

fathom sandal
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And smurfing will always be there

mental trench
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Rainbow six siege has tried its hardest for example with their ranked smurf problems but to no avail

analog salmon
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infinite turned down SBMM after launch. obviously that's not just because of less SBMM but SBMM being reduced certainly didn't help

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ideally the population would be large enough that good SBMM has no downside

mental trench
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Well when it comes to EU, ranked playlist seems to be very empty or long waiting times

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So idk if people who usually play ranked just play casual more now or something

coarse dagger
# mental trench Detecting smurfing is hard to do in itself

Halo 5 and Infinite can catch on to this pretty quickly and don't make as big an impact as people think
https://twitter.com/joshua_menke/status/1240155354417291266?t=lWPgAk-VUc6GhYxNYWxpyQ&s=19

Josh Menke (@joshua_menke)

@Hawntur @dan0wnz Unfortunately, the data don't support this tweet, and smurfs don't impact state-of-the-art skill systems anymore. We can measure the smurf impact and it's dropped off the chart as of TrueSkill2.

Twitter ·
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That's pre-infinite, but the same systems are in play

mental trench
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Every SBMM model is different, I don’t know the inner workings of Halos

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Usually it does work on other games like R6S or CoD

analog salmon
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i cant say i find smurfing an issue in infinite, you get maybe the odd game where its lopsided but generally games are balanced and close which indicates smurfs arent causing issues

coarse dagger
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Halo 3 and Halo 5 used the exact same underlying code, with a difference of TS2 being introduced during Halo 5s lifecycle

mental trench
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Usually the games I play is stomping or you get stomped

analog salmon
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right but the actualy matches?

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for me they are generally close in both social and ranked. there's exceptions but you dont see the stacks stomping solo players like in mcc

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which is like every few games in mcc

mental trench
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I think I do see games that are very close a lot

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But the one thing I see a lot is skill within the teams being varied

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Like someone carrying ridiculously and someone who obviously can’t compete at the bottom struggling

analog salmon
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yeah that's basically because it uses skill based team balancing but doesnt actually matchmake based on skill aside from for stacks

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which is why i keep saying it doesnt really have SB MM

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it obviously does, but its very weak

mental trench
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Ok so you think it’s currently like a match in general sbmm rather than individuals themselves?

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Regarding strictness

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Like depending on W/L ratio or performance in the game modes themselves than your personal skill

analog salmon
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yeah it enforces balance would be my guess

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so if 4 onyx players go into social, it waits until it can find 4 decent players

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but if a solo onyx player matchmakes, it finds whoever and then balances the teams

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hence why they have to carry so hard

mental trench
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Yea so that’s fine for I guess teams being happy but not the people in particular who play in the team

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Like it couldn’t be fun being carried and stomped on but still winning anyway?

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Because you had your team carry you

analog salmon
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yeah i dont think so

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high skill difference makes pointless matches

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nobody really has fun

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i think they need enough SBMM to stop those happening because nobody enjoys them and the fact it speeds up matchmaking it pointless

mental trench
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I think outside US region, matchmaking really struggles with population

analog salmon
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like upper 15% and lower 15% players just should not be in the same lobby or something

mental trench
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So unless they’re willing to allow regions unlocked or something

analog salmon
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well yeah, but at least for NA and Europe it would be nice

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during peak hours anyway

mental trench
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Yea unfortunately can’t see it happening for a while

fathom sandal
onyx latch
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I'd rather have all close games.

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Keeps me engaged more than clubbing baby seals.

analog salmon
onyx latch
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People wanting bigger gapped matches and more 'fun' matches (Read: Ones they don't have to try to win) always come across as just wanting to seal club to me. The kind of person who goes on forums and says "LFG, looking for a noob stomping squad".

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It used to be a big problem for Mechwarrior Online back in the day.

analog salmon
onyx latch
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Oughf.

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That one's rough.

analog salmon
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like there is just no real logic in putting players with such a huge skill difference in the same match

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i dont see how that's saying games shouldnt have variety

fathom sandal
analog salmon
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should social have as strong SBMM as ranked? of course not, but should it let a match like that happen?

onyx latch
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My eyes glazed over reading that.

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Because it's just... God no. No, not in the slightest. Taking off matchmaking controls is like ordering your men to take off helmets under artillery fire so you have less wounded.

fathom sandal
analog salmon
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that's skill based team balancing doing its best because SBMM doesnt exist

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SBMM means skill based matchmaking

fathom sandal
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Its their "skill" based matchmaking

analog salmon
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what did the matchmaker do? it did nothing but find 8 random players

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so that's literally no SBMM

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if the matchmaker did something, why are is the difference in skill huge?

fathom sandal
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But its a CLOSE game 47-50 totally balanced

analog salmon
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it is balanced. hence skill based team balancing

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it balanced the teams based on skill, it didnt matchmake the players based on skill

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blaming this on SBMM is wrong, its the lack of SBMM that allows this to happen

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very few triple A games are going to remove skill based team balancing because it would cause lower skill players to lose the vast majority of games

devout kite
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343 needs to stop recycling old bundles for new events

fathom sandal
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Just arguing the same thing, its taking total team skill and matching them. Its under skill based matchmaking

analog salmon
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balancing them lol

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semantics either way

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the game needs to matchmake based on skill for this to be avoided

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if you wanna call it all SBMM then so be it

fathom sandal
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How ever you say it their skill base or team based skill is wrong and needs fixed

analog salmon
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like i said it cant be fixed without lower skill players losing most games

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its a zero sum game

fathom sandal
analog salmon
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and people dont like losing

fathom sandal
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Thats just life

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You can t win everything

lusty scaffold
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Just jumped on Tenrai Social, got killed by an AI before the game started, my camera was then stuck to the floor in spawn and couldn't play, now been banned from matchmaking 🤣

analog salmon
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so developers have decided balancing games is best compromise and if there's enough of a population they can use SBMM to keep low and high skill players in different lobbies

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they wont remove skill based team balancing

fathom sandal
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Variety is the spice of life. Playing ultra close games all the time just doesn't sound fun for me. even pro matches have landslide victories

analog salmon
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every time i play MCC i get rocked by stacks every few games and it makes me appreciate how 343 prioritised balance for Infinite

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Halo 2 is basically unplayable at this point, killed the game because of no balance

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the alternative to forced balance is just not it imo

fathom sandal
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I think that's just a population thing. I play that game a lot solo and with teams and when the population was higher I had a very good mix. Now its not

lusty scaffold
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I jumped on a few H2 games and got absolutely ruined - people who knew all the spawns and basically toyed with you

analog salmon
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its the population changing but it's also the lack of enforced balance, especially on stacks

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the casual player base has just been pushed out of Halo 2 because it's not balanced

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the same is happening to the other games in MCC

fathom sandal
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Yea because the population is so low. So most of the players are die hard halo players with high skill

lusty scaffold
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The thing I can't work out is whether I prefer stricter SBMM or not. Close games for me are generally a fairly good thing. What I can't stand is the games where Infinite stacks you against impossible odds rather than a team that's balanced towards your skill level

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It seems like it will put me against a bunch of bots, then it gets progressively harder, rather than it just giving me a good balance from the outset

analog salmon
lusty scaffold
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I don't really play ranked so maybe that would be better for me but my friends are too far away in CSR so I can't play ranked with them

analog salmon
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I played MCC for the last 5 years and it never had the balance of Infinite

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even when it had a higher population then Infinite does now

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infinite would purge casual players without balance, that im pretty certain of

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maybe it would be okay for a while but it would slowly purge them out and become plagued by stacks of sweats in social

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halo 3 isn't even that lower in population and the difference with infinite is obvious

knotty ermine
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one thing I like about infinite is the dynamic crosshairs in comparison to the older games. since FOV is a new feature in halo, crosshairs adapt in infinite to tighten

fathom sandal
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Well whatever balancing Infinite is doing isn't helping. PLayer retention is bad. Steam charts shows 98% of PC players left. Idk xbox about but 98% leaving on one platform is pretty insane for a multiplayer game

knotty ermine
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so I have to use reshade to add a layer of a crosshair on my screen for my aim to work in mcc

analog salmon
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im pretty sure it is in fact helping

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you could argue nothing is helping by that logic

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i play Infinite wayy more then mcc largely due to balance

knotty ermine
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I play mcc because it's more fun

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I play infinite for the balance

analog salmon
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i feel that

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for btb i go back to mcc

knotty ermine
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or more so the fact that the game feels better to aim. halo reach's bloom is horrible and should've been scrapped from the start

analog salmon
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yeah Infinite addresses a lot of the flaws in Reach's gunplay

knotty ermine
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if halo infinite wasn't free to play. I wonder what the player count would be on pc. especially with it's abysmal launch

analog salmon
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i guess it would still be on gamepass but yeah, definitely less reach on Steam

knotty ermine
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game probably would've died at launch on pc

fathom sandal
knotty ermine
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that annoys me. this idea of keeping the original way of the game. even thought everyone hated it. they should've kept the TU bloom version of the game. but they allowed the none TU version to stay

fathom sandal
knotty ermine
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I still see original bloom but I guess they didn't make TU permanent for custom games

fathom sandal
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Its just naming, you can definitely spam the DMR with the current bloom but still it should have been zero bloom from the start

knotty ermine
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eh the dmr was a mistake. thats why I even think the bandit fits so well in halo now. being a weapon ranged between the AR and BR. a mid range marksman rifle that does not power over the BR

fathom sandal
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DMR worked really well in reach. Gave the same game feel as having the primary precision of a pistol in CE, or the BRs in H2 or H3. But having a BR, DMR in the same game kinda doesn't make sense imo

knotty ermine
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the issue with the br was it was more accurate than the h3 br and the gun being a semi auto allowed it to be insane in range in comparison to a burst recoiled rifle

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the br having a 3 burst recoil allowed it to be difficult to aim it like a sniper in h3

fathom sandal
knotty ermine
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DMR was like a mini sniper

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it's why bloom was thought about but they overdid it on the blooms limit

fathom sandal
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Still took 5 shots minimum to kill and everyone had it so balance wise its still good

analog salmon
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i think maybe recoil would have helped with balance in Reach?

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bungie experimented with it in ODST

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but I think perhaps why I enjoy Infinite's weapon sandbox a lot more is the use of recoil over bloom or spread

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of course infinite still has the latter but its less reliant on it

knotty ermine
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I don't see recoil at all

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if were talking about precision weapons

analog salmon
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in infinite?

knotty ermine
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yeah. only on the bandit but the br is not noticable

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also you can basically turn recoil off with that game option

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you probably have it at default which is 100

fathom sandal
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Recoil has never really been a thing in Halo games especially when you're talking about the most used guns

analog salmon
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i think on the BR its not really a detriment but its there

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recoil is not really a mechanic higher level players are going to struggle with but it creates a nice skill gap at the lower levels. same with bloom really

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at a certain level bloom then just lowers the skill gap though

fathom sandal
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Reach was pretty balanced, idk what made it unbalanced

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Bloom or not

analog salmon
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yeah i think so. i actually think the sidekicks bloom is a bigger detriment to Infinite's socail sandbox then the DMR's is in TU Reach

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probably BTB is where Reach's sandbox is weaker then 3's for me. being able to beam people across the map with the DMR made it impossible to walk out in the open

knotty ermine
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bloom was totally the mechanic that ruined it

crystal iron
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how are the Halo 5 Servers looking?

fathom sandal
analog salmon
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truee but then you had a map like hemmorage where unless your in a vehicle you're just DMR sniping at other players

fathom sandal
knotty ermine
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the sidekick is still better than the AR. thats one weapon that needs a small nerf

analog salmon
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i feel like sandtrap in halo 3 worked better because the BR didnt have that precision

knotty ermine
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and I still think that pulse carbine has a dumb as hell velocity

analog salmon
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you could be a bit exposed in Sandtrap and close distance across the open areas

grim citrus
crystal iron
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sweet imma cause some chaos before my xbox kicks the bucket

fathom sandal
knotty ermine
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no but they were halfway through the map, camping by the rocks in the mid area

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it's probably why we don't have that map in the playlist.. cause I havent' seen Hemmorage at all in mcc

analog salmon
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i feel like that was basically hemmorage slayer lol

fathom sandal
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Do you realize how big hemmorage is compared to coagulation or blood gulch or even valhalla

analog salmon
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all i remember of hemmorage is dmring people from half way across the map or getting in a revenant and tryna mow down people

fathom sandal
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Sandtrap was an outlier H3 map

analog salmon
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and god forbid its magnum starts cause in that case the sniper on either team is getting 90% of the kills

grim citrus
analog salmon
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i mean its the same with a map like Avalanche

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BR spread really made those maps work

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Reach BTB for me played best on the maps you had decent amounts of cover to tranverse them

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like Highlands, Boneyard, and Paradiso. Even Spire when the Spire itself is blocked off

fathom sandal
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Like blood gulch, coagulation, hemmorage, no one was really shooting from cave to cliff DMR or BR. It still worked engagements played the same imo.

analog salmon
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i feel like that's all we were doing lol

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like how do you actually get into close quaters otherwise

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you have to walk across it or drive, and if its slayer you have little reason to push the enemy base

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i would say Sandtrap and Avalanche are also worse for the Slayer though

grim citrus
mental trench
grim citrus
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Why do players come back to a game? Because it’s not fun?

mental trench
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SBMM is not fun to some people but SBMM is player retention friendly. You see the hand in hand isn’t exactly hand in hand in that specific perspective

grim citrus
analog salmon
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i suppose the question is how does it retain players if it makes the game not fun, that contradicts itself

mental trench
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Mostly cause most games they’ll destroy lobbies I think

grim citrus
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FPS that is

mental trench
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R6S use to have randomness p sure

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Then they divided everything into their own sections

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To cater to each category of player

grim citrus
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Don’t think there’s randomness in games

mental trench
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Yes but it depends on strictness

grim citrus
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But it’s not random

mental trench
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Region obviously is one factor

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But it gives the feeling of ‘random’

grim citrus
#

The difference is that you just don’t see the ranking

#

I’m sure it does

mental trench
#

It’s more unpredictable I guess

grim citrus
#

But it’s not random

fathom sandal
mental trench
#

Sure but it feels random which is the point

grim citrus
#

It’s random because you don’t know the rank that you are or the people you are going up against

#

But the system is consistent

mental trench
#

You don’t either with non ranked modes?

analog salmon
grim citrus
#

There’s still a skill based algorithm. The only difference is that it’s more lenient

mental trench
#

Yes but you don’t know your skill level

analog salmon
#

i did play a lot of reach back in the day but its fading 😭

mental trench
#

That is being determined

grim citrus
mental trench
#

A wider range which will be reduced I assume

grim citrus
#

For non ranked matches?

mental trench
#

Yes

grim citrus
#

Don’t you mean expanded?

mental trench
#

Not for those who are highly skilled

grim citrus
#

Wait… what?

mental trench
#

It’s going to find it difficult to put them into games with the average player

grim citrus
#

Oh. Right

#

But that should be the case

mental trench
#

Think of it like a pyramid

#

The more skilled you are the more the range shrinks in terms of who you go up against and who meets your skill criteria

grim citrus
#

Majority of high skill players want to play with other high skill players

mental trench
#

I suppose so but I have experienced skilled players getting fed up going against the same people every match

knotty ermine
#

lol I just realized one of the maps is the pit but in the japanese style

mental trench
#

Again, there is a preference

grim citrus
#

I know for me, that’s one of the main reasons I strictly play ranked playlists

mental trench
#

Patterns start becoming predictable and that’s not exactly great either

#

It’s a very complicated system to get right if that’s even possible

grim citrus
#

I think the system is flawed imo

mental trench
#

I think it always will have a sacrifice type of flaw to it

#

Someone is gonna be left out of their preference I guess

grim citrus
#

The metrics for what makes a good player is too complex to make a system that’s going to be accurate

mental trench
#

Yea that’s fair

#

In general it should serve the majority of the playerbase, so usually your average casual player

grim citrus
#

One of the reasons I advocate for strictly a W/L algorithm

#

Knowing how to win is the most consistent way of separating who’s good and who’s not

mental trench
#

Genuinely I don’t think you could find out without some kind of survey for responses or having no sbmm, moderate sbmm, strict sbmm modes running simultaneously and seeing how population/feedback does on them

#

It is a trial and error system

#

I think R6S did something like this

#

Casual was no or low sbmm, unranked was moderate and ranked was strict

slim flint
#

the new event helmet looks better at an angle

grim citrus
fathom sandal
hollow sand
#

SBMM gets blamed for a lot but the fundamental issue is that match sizes are too small

knotty ermine
#

lol grappling the flag is hilarious

hollow sand
#

4v4 is going to be inherently competitive and not as good a casual experience. The player count is just too small and each player has to pull their own weight.

If you play with more players per team you increase the churn of the match and make it more "casual friendly"

knotty ermine
#

reason why people don't go insane in a battlefield match

misty vale
#

people don't go insane in BF? lol

knotty ermine
#

not unless the game ends up getting really close. but not many people go crazy for a win unless it's rush or anything with an actual objective

hollow sand
#

even then you can't ever identify a "weakest link" player

#

whereas in a Halo match you know this guy screwed up

narrow agate
#

MCC updated, bug fixes r anything new?

fathom sandal
coarse dagger
hollow sand
#

well there is the increasing "awareness" of players about SBMM driven by utubers and such. Halo 3 had a MMR but no one knew the term

#

I've played a lot of Infinite with people who aren't terminally online and no one has complained about the games MMR system. its only on more plugged in sites that it gets any real traction

#

So i'm not convinced that MMR discussion wouldn't be happening if Halo 3 released today

fathom sandal
#

Well H3 didnt have a severe player retention problem

hollow sand
#

Infinite has XP rewards (and msot games do) that put a greater focus on winning than there used to be.

I also never played 4v4 Halo 3 either so ymmv on that

#

Different time and place. I also don't think halo 3 would do that well in todays environment.

fathom sandal
#

H3 also had exp based on wins. And it was still popular when they had a tournament in 2019

hollow sand
#

Halo is the last big arena shooter and that genre is for all practical purposes dead

#

is MMR the issue with Infinite or is that its an arena shooter in an era of Battle royales, extraction shooters, and looter shooters?

narrow agate
knotty ermine
#

wellp. got those 10 ranks in like. an hour or 2

#

back to forge

slim flint
knotty ermine
#

stuff

onyx latch
#

Those matches make it incredibly obvious who the specific failure point is considering how much one tank is capable of in most circumstances for an offensive push.

slim flint
misty vale
#

And now the event pass took me 7 games. 82 minutes

fathom sandal
misty vale
mental trench
#

Ah I see Mint Blitz has made a video on the SBMM stuff

#

How convenient 😆

#

But yeah just reading his comment section goes to show there are people out there that like ‘randomness’ to their games, even if that still meant there was some form of a SBMM system in place

smoky wave
#

Finally my opinion about SBMM

grim citrus
mental trench
grim citrus
#

Except @onyx latch. He’s my dog

mental trench
#

Even game companies and CEOs too 😆

#

(Looking at you TODD)

onyx latch
#

I am currently enjoying a pineapple express sans alchohol. It is good.

ruby lake
#

sans

#

undertale

devout kite
#

Give us the Gravemarker shoulders 343 what’s the point of showing them in the season 4 trailer if we haven’t gotten them

lavish linden
# onyx latch Keeps me engaged more than clubbing baby seals.

same to be honest.
i'm not exactly good at the game, as i stopped playing quite a few times, and being set against players who average 30-40 kills a game when my team has 10-12 kills total is so boring. It makes me not want to play. It makes me want to, say, put down my controller and walk away for a few months.
When it gets to the point where I want to play a social game, I load into social, and then I get stomped in less than half of the game time, and that happens every. single. game. it's disengaging, its depressing, and it's annoying when I can't progress my purchased battlepass.
i say either fix sbmm so that it appropriately matches you with people around your skill level, and not people who are way above your skill level, or how it progressively gets harder and harder to win a game, or remove it entirely and just make everyone randomized. you could also change sbmm to match people around your career rank, something like that? i don't know, i'm spitballing, this needs to be solved somehow.

crystal iron
#

: /
The matches are “predetermined?”

onyx latch
#

Turns out, predictive algorythms are actually quite good at what they do.

full warren
#

I know that since waypoint was a thing lol

#

I was like wow it can predict me do well, it can predict me getting 30 kills and then 12 kills next game, so accurately

onyx latch
#

Making it public is a double edged sword, because if you're trying to get better, it's good to know "Hey, the matchmaking was trying to throw me against harder opponents sometimes"

#

But it's also disheartening if you kinda... Don't give a damn.

full warren
#

well it doesn't matter since even if you do well 30 kills you can still lose lol

onyx latch
#

I don't think Picard's wisdom applies here.

full warren
#

its not like you can get much better than 30 kills in a slayer, anymore you are just lucky and getting some crazy snipes or playing vs total noobs

#

If I could view my stats by how often I come top of my team and how often I win or lose, it probably is a solid 50/50 basicly it means no matteer what I do it doesn't matter, I known this for a few season now. nothing I can do unless everyone complains about it

onyx latch
#

I am also not concerned with outlier 30 kill 'wow I carried so hard' matches.

full warren
#

30 kills are not outliers lol

onyx latch
#

Sure they aren't.

full warren
#

I used to get that almost every 3-4 games

slim flint
full warren
#

because amtch making is stupid it would make me carry harder and harder but still wont let me win

onyx latch
#

Guess you're just blessed with drooling idiots, then.

#

Good for you.

full warren
#

Well I face worse and wrose opponets but my team amtes also get worse and worse

wise lichen
#

they need to address this NOW man, not 6 months from now, not 7 years, NOW

onyx latch
#

Christ.

full warren
#

its like watching disfunctional bots run around playing minecraft

wise lichen
#

it straight up sucks all the enjoyment out of the game for me

slim flint
onyx latch
#

Your PFP is the most fitting for how you talk about it.

full warren
#

Last 25 games I came top of my team 20 times, only have a win rate of 52% just all seems pointless to me

wise lichen
# slim flint do you have an idea for what they could do about it?

maybe don't force a half baked algorithmic system into social playlists that straight up PREVENTS certain players from showing up in your lobbies outside of ranked? it legit defeats the entire point of even having a ranked playlist if the game is just gonna make EVERYTHING feel like ranked.

full warren
#

might as well not keep a score and just give everyone a participation medel for playing the match

wise lichen
#

i love playing with teammates that don't play the objective and stare at their screen drooling while i try to carry 24/7 only for my matches to always end in a loss because of this forced SBMM nonsense

stone nimbus
#

one of the reasons they should do social playlists with just slayer

celest heron
#

being above 50% isn't too bad when you play solo. mine is 45%

full warren
wise lichen
#

doesn't really matter at the end of the day when everything is PREDETERMINED

#

wins are artificial, and losses are forced

full warren
#

well I know because its trying to force you 50% win rate because that is just how the system is design and I do hate it

stone nimbus
#

sure doesn't feel like 50% 90% of the time

wise lichen
#

but hey, why fix the freakin game when we can push more of our pointless HCS merch?!

stone nimbus
#

or the entire storefront

wise lichen
#

that'll be 34 bucks for one armor coating please!

#

god man, im sorry for the tangent there, but sweet god im just fed up with this nonsense

full warren
#

I do not buy anything in this game lol, while in world of warships I would spend $80 just on a single in game ship haha and I have multiple. that game rewards good players

quiet yacht
#

why would you spend that much on a ship

full warren
#

You can actually get a 80% win rate if you are good whiile you have 20% win rate if you are bad.

stone nimbus
#

i only put $10 on this game back in season 3 and let it ride

wise lichen
#

why would 343 screw you over for doing well in their games?

full warren
quiet yacht
#

what

#

ok i cant swear thats boring

stone nimbus
#

yoink!

full warren
#

$400 / 4800 hours is not bad price lol

#

only a 10 cent a hour enjoyment fee

quiet yacht
#

no not that 16 hours a day

full warren
#

It was covid

quiet yacht
#

thats not even funny what the actual hell

full warren
#

Nothing else to do can't go out, work was chill

wise lichen
#

sweet lord my wait times are massive

#

just got a wait time for btb thats estimated at 30 min

full warren
#

YOu get timed out at 15 mins lol or 10 mins

stone nimbus
#

minutes or seconds?

full warren
#

I got timed out twice last night in quick play... so sad

wise lichen
#

god i miss bungie

stoic canopy
#

I've said it before when it came up but wouldn't Spike Grenades make for better Ninja Stars than the Plasmas?

full warren
#

I queued a total of 8 mins for BTB today lol. never found a match, 4 mins for the tenrai event, so I went back to team slayer

stone nimbus
#

i'd do ffa if there were more people playing, but pc players are an endangered species for this game

full warren
#

I mean you can see how many pc players are there 3-4k on steam and I guess same or less on xbox thing,

tulip tusk
stone nimbus
full warren
celest heron
#

I'd guess there's more on xbox

tulip tusk
full warren
stone nimbus
#

that's really only for the campaign

full warren
#

Yeah people play on it but I assume most PC gamers play on steam

#

I just know microsoft have their own game distribution software a competing one to steam

stone nimbus
full warren
#

I didn't even knwo there was a other option, I just always used steam

celest heron
stone nimbus
full warren
#

ah right game pass is just the suscription

lime root
# full warren I queued a total of 8 mins for BTB today lol. never found a match, 4 mins for th...

Just as bad here in Australia. It’s 11:30am for most Australians and I’m struggling to get a match in anything, on top of that when I do get a match I’m on 300ping. Then just because SBMM hates me I get useless teammates. Why tf did I spend all this time getting proficient at the game if I’m just going to get f’d over by 3 people who don’t know how to hold a controller, against an opposing team that are plying like their mothers life is on the line.

wise lichen
#

im honestly contemplating on wether i should play this game or not until they fix the matchmaking..

lime root
#

I wish I had that kind of patience, unfortunately don’t see myself taking a couple years worth of a break lmao

#

Make social Halo social again. Locking us into regions and tightening the SBMM so hard that I spend more time queuing than I do plying.

grim citrus
wise lichen
# grim citrus Why

thinking of halo 3 matchmaking days where things weren't predetermined

grim citrus
wise lichen
onyx latch
#

Embed fail laugh at user

wise lichen
#

this

#

look at waypoint career stats after a few games and it explains everything

fathom sandal
wise lichen
#

the game uses an algorithim to try and pre-determine your results on things like kills, deaths, and it leads to a system where your wins and losses are technically pre-determined making wins feel like they weren't earned and also explains having brain dead team mates

misty vale
celest heron
#

they do use a system which predicts how many kills/deaths you'll get.

wise lichen
fathom sandal
#

Making matchmaking too data driven, and data driven does not equal fun games

wise lichen
#

some people legit have to use a VPN just to find matches because of the way SBMM works

celest heron
#

the problem is it can't predict if you'll do better or worse

wise lichen
#

it shouldn't even try to predict results period

#

that should only be in ranked, why the hell is it in social?

celest heron
#

cause they don't want lopsided games

wise lichen
#

no point in having social playlists if everything is gonna act the same way as ranked lobbies

#

except all it does is make things lopsided

misty vale
wise lichen
#

why can't we just go back to the matchmaking system halo 3 used?

misty vale
#

The best players play ranked, in squads.

wise lichen
#

where fun goes to die

#

no thank you, i don't wanna sweat every single time i boot up the game dude. if i wanted to do that id play ranked.

celest heron
#

pretty sure h3 used a version of ts2. the skill matching might've been looser though

misty vale
#

So the social list is 90%+ f2p kids / halo fans who have never played a fast fps, nor a server side netcode fps

#

And they are AWFUL at the game

wise lichen
misty vale
#

So yeah one guy on the other team is to balance you, you're worse than him, you lose. The other ten players are typically bots. Luckily losing doesn't change anything

celest heron
wise lichen
# misty vale And they are AWFUL at the game

SBMM also effects queue times btw, if you play well enough you can end up with queue times that can take anywhere from 5-10 min. sometimes the game wont even give you an estimate

misty vale
#

Not in the USA

#

I don't wait long for a game ever

wise lichen
misty vale
#

No, it's proof that free to play / gamepass is breaking gaming

fathom sandal
misty vale
#

Basically every game is, more or less, this way

wise lichen
#

next thing i know, im on a losing streak because 343i thought it would be funny to put me up against HCS teams with a team full of toddlers

celest heron
wise lichen
#

if this keeps up and doesn't get addressed, don't be surprised when people like me decide to just go back to the older games to avoid this nonsense, modern gaming is a plague and it needs to change, this crap is not fun to deal with, games are just that, GAMES. not a second job.

fathom sandal
wise lichen
#

god its depressing

#

i miss playing with my old group in customs, nowadays people just don't do that anymore

#

and whenever they do its nothing but fatkid 24/7

onyx latch
#

Maybe it's because they get tired of constant unhinged rants and don't continue to group up with people who do so.

wise lichen
#

welcome to the internet sir

onyx latch
#

I know that's my biggest problem with modern gaming.

#

People my age or younger going full Infowarsesque rant about the most inane things.

wise lichen
#

its true

onyx latch
#

That it's insufferable to watch again and again? Well, I suppose broken clocks and all that.

quiet yacht
#

payday 3 had its early access start yesterday and ps5 had delayed access by about 15 hours, ive never seen such utter vitriol over a non issue

wise lichen
#

i just want my games to be fun and not focus on ERMAHGERD MLG 24/7

onyx latch
wise lichen
#

the payday community be like that

magic night
wise lichen
#

it happens every single match

magic night
#

You stop caring, your games magically become less stressful

quiet yacht
#

i will say about this whole matchmaking, a lot of the time when people complain they arent willing to recognise when they are the issue as well

wise lichen
#

try playing a game that has objectives with people that don't know what they're doing and tell me how fun it is rok

celest heron
#

I think that's partially true. If you're constantly dying when you don't try, then it's not fun either.

onyx latch
wise lichen
#

theres plenty of videos covering this, not to mention pictures

onyx latch
#

Oh, wow, now I'm convinced.

magic night
wise lichen
#

could've fooled me then

onyx latch
#

The unholy tides of whining gamers must be right, instead of just mostly hilariously uninformed and loud.

wise lichen
#

"i don't have any problems so therefore the problem doesn't exist"

stoic canopy
#

I feel like the entire SBMM argument can easily be summed up as;

I don't want to try, but I still want to feel and good and reap all the rewards of trying and winning, and I don't like that modern systems don't let me do this anymore.

#

Same argument they make over in CoD now.

onyx latch
#

Pretty much everywhere argues that lmao

wise lichen
magic night
#

The problems now are that Youtubers said there's this new problem called skill based matchmaking. Something that is not new and has existed as long as matchmaking has back in Halo 2. People just learned what it is (if you can really call what people think about it to be "learning") and use it as a scapegoat for not winning their matches.

celest heron
#

I'd be fine with loosening the skill matching.

onyx latch
#

Hell hath no fury like a nerd who learned of a new thing to be mad about.

stoic canopy
#

If you're there to have fun and screw around, then winning and losing or your teammates performance shouldn't matter. If they DO matter, then you're not there purely for fun and you're lying to yourself.

wise lichen
onyx latch
#

Even if it SBMM was completely absent the systems for predicting your performance in a given game wouldn't cease to function, if it makes you feel any better.

wise lichen
magic night
#

It's about as loose as it always was. I got the same quality of matches back in the old days as I do now, in terms of team balancing.

wise lichen
stoic canopy
#

If all you're doing is trying to play the game, then what is the point of the other person's shower status?

magic night
#

There was always about one or two leaderboard toppers per team.

wise lichen
#

plenty of other people are having the same problem, doesn't mean there isn't an issue

onyx latch
#

We don't believe in ad populum fallacies here.

#

Well, some of us might. I don't, personally.

wise lichen
stoic canopy
#

It's something that people who actually get into some other genres like FGs and RTS have to learn and accept in order to get along; you gotta take your ego out back and put it down.

wise lichen
#

OUTSIDE of ranked

onyx latch
stoic canopy
#

Imagine trying to justify that you should be allowed to keep slapping people worse than you just so you can feel good.

wise lichen
#

im not trying to justify anything

magic night
#

Unless you're losing significantly more than 50% of the time, I don't see a problem. Losses happen.

wise lichen
#

i just don't want my game to only consist of playing against the exact same people over and over again

#

i just had that happen today, 5 matches in a row with at least two of the same people, im going 20 kills 10-13 deaths while my team goes 0-15

celest heron
#

my win rate is 45%

wise lichen
#

must be me tho clearly

glacial tartan
#

As the population shrinks this problem is exacerbated - the overall pool of players the matchmaker has to pull from makes skill gaps more apparent.

magic night
#

Playing against the same people isn't something strictly tied to skill matching, it also has to do with finding a match quickly and with good network quality.

wise lichen
#

i just want this crap to be fixed man

onyx latch
#

Hmn, my win percentage is 46.6%.

glacial tartan
#

Despite what anyone says very few people want to wait 25 minutes for an “even” match. So the matchmaking takes this into account and best effort makes matches.

onyx latch
#

Oh, neat, I apparently hit 30K kills today.

wise lichen
#

maybe im just getting tilted, idk.

#

im sorry for the long as hell rant, im just stressed and frustrated

onyx latch
#

Yes, absolutely.

wise lichen
#

you could try to not be a prick for 5 seconds sometime, maybe then you'll get some friends

onyx latch
#

I have plenty, unfortunately.

wise lichen
#

or a gf/bf

#

food for thought

onyx latch
#

Awwwwww.

#

I'm sure that would hurt.

wise lichen
#

knowing you, anything would fit up there.

stoic canopy
#

Friends are unnessacary and a distraction.

There is only the self, and the improvement of the self.

onyx latch
stoic canopy
#

After all, if you ain't gettin' gud, what use are you to friends?

wise lichen
#

oh i can tell just by the way you talk bud, stop giving yourself so much credit, you aren't as smart as you think.

onyx latch
#

Mmmmn.

#

Lemme know how that Psychology degree goes for you.

wise lichen
#

hell you come from michigan, thats more than enough for me to know how much of a prune you are

onyx latch
#

Because... Whew. There was a skill gulf that I felt terrible about.

wise lichen
#

now if you'll excuse me, have fun being muted from my end

glacial tartan
#

Both of you need to chill it’s not that serious 😂

onyx latch
#

I wasn't not chill.

#

I just, y'know, always type like I'm annoyed.

wise lichen
onyx latch
#

You're still responding, so.

wise lichen
#

case in point

stoic canopy
onyx latch
#

Oughf. I mean, it checks out, but oughf.

wise lichen
#

thats most degrees in america atm tbh

onyx latch
#

Where I get tilted (Unless I'm allowed to demo the enemy the entire game, which I always do because I'm awful at Rocket League) because I frankly suck at it, while my teammate's just vibing, hitting aerials like it's his day job.

stoic canopy
#

Couldn't afford to go Arizona or like, Texas to get my Masters in the field I wanted so I got screwed.

onyx latch
#

I've got no idea what I'm doing for college right now, I just know I've got the next four-five years paid for.

stoic canopy
#

So now I just got a fancy paper that says "This man is actually capable of doing work, seeing things through and working on higher level but no one will care because it isn't for X Specific thing a company is looking for".

onyx latch
#

I mean, it should still count for the same reason most '''useless''' degrees do, right?

stoic canopy
#

And I didn't want to sell my soul designing monetization schemes for games (which IS something that people with BAs/BSs in Psych get hired to do).

onyx latch
#

Huh. $60K a year roughly.

#

Oh, wait, no, that'd likely be a Data Monetization Consultant?

#

Or no?

onyx latch
#

smirkle I saw that

celest heron
#

boo, you can't use the grapple with the flag in ninja ctf

tulip tusk
celest heron
#

I got spoiled from husky raid

tulip tusk
grim citrus
#

To throw a bone in this discussion; halo 5 is top 2

outer sand
#

Halo 5 is #2?

grim citrus
#

Correct. Top 2 halo game of all time

onyx latch
#

#1 is Spartan Strike

grim citrus
#

Debatable

#

Assault slaps

#

First h2, then 5, then CE

#

CE and 4 share a slot

glacial tartan
#

Did the MCC update today break the steam deck version? Throws an error and can’t play multiplayer anymore.

#

Asking here because tickets aren’t supported for steam deck 😦

celest heron
#

so is Opulence just a Skyline remake from H4?

hollow bobcat
#

The new swords mode is boring.

#

Slash, clash, slash, clash, slash, clash. It's basically a tug of war based on luck.

#

(incoming git gud remark)

tulip tusk
#

luckily i zipped thru it and got the rewards hehe

slim flint
#

if you get a KOTH match they bless you with adding “throw a sticky grenade on the hill in the hopes of maybe dealing any damage” to the mix

#

which totally doesn’t just add to the monotony

#

though I had fun with it

grim citrus
celest heron
reef wind
#

This may of been asked many times but, is map rotation broken so you always get dredge?

hollow bobcat
#

If I could make the sword playlist better; No radar, faster respawns, less or no shields.

#

4 sword slashes until you both kill each other. Either that or one sticks another and both die again.

livid fable
#

now THIS is pod racing!

#

i've gotten exterminations, mvps four games in a row, life is good

#

if you can't slash then you're gonna crash

#

pro tip, nade your allies on the control points. enemies are moving toward them for melee kills, and friendly fire is off.

#

it's only tug of war if your only method of engaging with the game is trying to just be faster than everyone. use your noggin.

civic sundial
knotty ermine
#

Skyline had the best skybox i've seen for a halo map. I would love to make a live wallpaper of it someday. I probably could now that it's on pc

fallow merlin
#

Halo 3 and Reach had some gorgeous skyboxes

#

Whole series really.

glacial tartan
#

Looks like the recent changes caused some file problems with MCC on the steam deck?

At first it can’t find the correct exe, turns out the file names are case sensitive and somehow they changed.

Fixed that, now it’s complaining that the hash catalog is missing.

Anyone else with the same problems?

tepid latch
#

Welp.. that was a very quick event pass completed, a little underwhelming, but the featured mode is awesome!

#

I think i just wish the challenge system were different so we had daily a chunk of challenges to grind out the bp with and then also weekly which could be more specific

#

the way im thinking about it is that most of the current weekly challenges we get should just be made into daily challenges since most of them barely take any time to complete

misty vale
#

People endlessly complained that the challenges were too difficult. Now it is so easy that even the youngest kid can get the weekly done in one night's play. The community asked for this

vocal fossil
#

Someone want to play halo wars ?

tepid latch
coarse dagger
misty vale
#

There was a post on Reddit about having to use sentinel beam. Posted on Tuesday, with thousands of doots, which described 'having to throw games' rather than organically get 10 kills with it over the successive 6 days

#

That was the last time challenges were anything more than 'play halo'

tepid latch
#

...man some people just don't get the point of challenges?? Or haven't played any other Live services with challenge systems?!? The most challenging ones I've seen now are get kills with the br, assault, pistol or just like a set of weapons...

Begging to make it more of an actual challenge

hollow ore
#

Today I learned you can get a fast ball in infinite with the plasma grenade.

livid fable
#

and so it felt less like a challenge and more like a gacha game, where whether you would be able to work on your challenge or not depended on if the game was willing to let you play it mode where the weapon existed at all

#

where there might only be one spawn for it and your allies might also be trying to get the same challenge

#

the system isn't any different now, it's just a lot less problematic because you can choose fiesta, and because there's usually multiple types of weapons that can fill the challenge

#

incidentally, this also led to people not playing objectives or bothering to get a good kill death ratio at all when they're only goal was to use this weapon that they were terrible with to get as many kills as they could. deaths irrelevant.

#

it's why I originally wanted a mode of gameplay that could not be used to complete challenges, so anyone still working on challenges would not be in the game play

#

I would actually time my games to be on Thursday Friday and Monday because that's when you had the fewest people trying to just complete the challenges

#

you're free to recommend ways in which the challenges could be improved. just remember, hyper specific weapon challenges without the ability to choose maps that have that weapon aren't challenges. they are luck based gimmicks designed to force players to keep queuing up in the hope that they will get a map that will allow them to possibly complete their challenge.

earnest compass
#

Hi!

knotty ermine
dusk whale
# livid fable you're free to recommend ways in which the challenges could be improved. just re...

agree, those hyperspecific challenges have to go. Challenges should be able to let you do something you perhaps don't do often, but they should be doable for everybody and in theory on every map.

The two most annoying ones (in my view) are:

  • x amount of kills with a specific powerweapon (because very little chance you get that weapon on that map)
  • x amount of wins (because a lot of people only get thrown in one-sided loss matches all the time, wich makes it almost impossible for tem to complete it)
    (and i can imagine for lower skilled players the challenges that demand a killing spree are extremely hard, since they always have to fight way stronger enemies)

For the powerweapon kills it's very simple, just stop demanding a specific powerweapon and just make it kills with a powerweapon in general.

knotty ermine
#

oh yeah screw those. that took me awhile to do and I was avoiding the objective because of it

devout kite
#

Let’s face it 343 doesn’t want to add new bundles to the shop because they want to keep recycling old bundles that people don’t want

arctic copper
#

Favorite and least favorite halo game?

misty vale
livid fable
livid fable
devout kite
livid fable
#

maybe I just don't understand the appeal of trying to understand why they are recycling shop options so much recently.

#

and I agree that is shoddy

#

why does it require an understanding of their motivation to come to that conclusion though?

devout kite
livid fable
#

I agree.

crystal iron
livid fable
#

depends on what it's being the least favorite for

#

favorite multiplayer: either Halo 3, 5, for infinite. three and infinite field pretty close despite the differences, especially lately with the introduction of squad battle.

least favorite multiplayer: Halo 4. yeah, really brave opinion there, I know.

favorite campaign: technically ODST but we're probably not counting that one, so I would have to say Halo 2.

least favorite campaign: Halo 5. again, extremely brave opinion (sarcasm)

fathom sandal
#

For the overall game campaign and multiplayer. Least Favorite Halo 4. Favorite Halo 3 by a hair over Reach and Halo 2.

devout kite
misty vale
#

which is how the game released, and you get the whinging, endless posting, about how the challenges aren't done in seconds

devout kite
#

Also 343 needs to stop giving me teammates that can’t play the objective

livid fable
livid fable
#

like they have stuff in the customization menu that says it was released or in the shop during a certain season but it never was

civic sundial
#

And honestly, that's a good thing they aren't hard. Not everyone has the time to sit and play Halo for hours upon hours

#

I can just pop into Infinite, see if there's an event or a weekly I really like, play through until I've got the rewards and be content with a good hour or two of Halo opposed to feeling like I've just grinded for hours to get through a single challenge

livid fable
#

in a free to play game, anything which does not make people more likely to spend money or get their friends to play the game is generally understood as a negative investment. this is the function of challenges. to give people a reason to keep coming back to keep unlocking stuff. making them harder so that people could not reliably unlock stuff would result in population decline.

#

you know what? I think I'm being too narrow-minded

#

I've been talking about the challenges as though they are serving a singular purpose, but there's no reason to can't serve more than one purpose. imagine if you will a challenge which has nothing to do with the other challenges or cosmetics. it's a monthly challenge. it's a single challenge, and if you actually complete it, you get access to the monthly exclusive cosmetic

#

everything else stays the same.

civic sundial
#

I wouldn't mind additional challenges like monthly or daily challenges

#

They don't need to be too difficult or anything, just a fun additional incentive to play

livid fable
#

these would be challenges for people who want or enjoy seeing exclusive things. there are a lot of humans out there who actually enjoy being envious.

civic sundial
#

Heck, maybe even take a page from some other games and have some sort of community challenge each season where if collectively everyone is able to help reach the goal of the challenge, everyone gets a reward from it

livid fable
#

I really don't think the rank rewards screens or the progression name plates are a viable alternatives to this concept.

#

that would be pretty good way to incentivize clans again

#

but I don't think they really have the structure for that

civic sundial
#

To be fair, I don't think the progression is meant as an alternative to challenges. People just wanted a progression system

livid fable
#

I think there are people who wanted a progression system who just wanted a progression system. I am saying that that is a different desire than rank based or progression based unlockables.

#

I am mentioning this because one response to difficult challenge unlocked cosmetics would be that they shouldn't have to do it if they have a certain rank, or that if you're looking for exclusive release contents, it should just be rank based

#

bearing in mind that the purpose of challenges is to give people reasons to keep playing, it needs to be rank independent

#

either way, disregarding how a majority of the population are going to interact with challenges does the game no favors. 'making the challenges hard again' as the general rule is a tested and failed concept that has died in the marketplace.

civic sundial
#

That's why I'm glad the challlenges aren't hard

misty vale
livid fable
# misty vale > it's a monthly challenge. it's a single challenge, and if you actually complet...

I think you're overestimating the amount of vitriol it would receive. there's no such thing as a decision that would please everybody, of course.

and if you want to make it ...'fair,' you could make it so that the monthly challenges can all be accessed by having purchased the battle pass the monthly challenges are associated with. this would let you go back and continue trying to unlock them later.

devout kite
#

Nice to see 343 not banning players that quit during a match

misty vale
livid fable
hollow sand
#

most people genuinely don't care but people online will do that

livid fable
#

a company does not need to justify charging money for service. what they have to do is reckon with reality if they charge an amount that not enough people want to pay, because they'll go bankrupt.

#

people are willing to drop more money on things that function. the function of Halo infinite is to provide fun. this is partially why their engagement models fail them. being engaged does not mean having fun.

hollow sand
#

Infinite's big problem is not launching with forge/arena shooters aren't as popular as they used to be

#

everything else is a sideshow

livid fable
#

that is an interesting opinion.

#

I don't really have one on that matter.

#

I don't really understand the idea of free to play games. I just don't. if there is game content I enjoy, I would like to pay money to continue its existence within certain bounds of quality.

#

this is why I did not want to purchase anything at all from the shop in the first three seasons

#

there's no such thing as good games or bad games. there's only games that people come back to.

hollow sand
#

If you look at the market there are no successful arena shooters left except Halo. Everything else is either dead or super niche. So I think even if Infinite launched perfectly it would still have burnt a huge amount of players because its no longer "in".

Forge means that you give players a way to play Halo in a way that isn't an arena shooter. You can do like griffball or zombies or whatever

livid fable
#

k

hollow sand
#

so you give yourself an out where your core game can be an arena shooter but still offer something to people.

livid fable
#

if the question is, could Halo infinite have been something different, I think the answer is yes.

#

if the question is, would that have been better, I think the answer is, it really depends.

#

bear in mind that it took them six years

six

years

to make Halo infinite

hollow sand
#

I just don't think it ever would have been a huge game the way like Halo 3 was. But a lot of discussion around Halo is framed around the past heights

#

and often it focuses in on stuff like cosmetics or battle pass stuff when I think that is more or less meaningless

coarse dagger
livid fable
#

you're looking at a lot of development time, and that's working within the confines of pre-established game models

#

so I don't think it's reasonable to say that they should have released something that was not an arena shooter

hollow sand
#

i'm not saying they shouldn't have

#

What I am saying is that if you look at Infinite's player count I don't think it would be a ton higher if it launched in a better condition (more maps, BTB working, easier battle pass/cosmetics)

livid fable
#

oh, I have no doubt about that and I agree with you completely, I apologize, I 100% misunderstood what you meant

#

yes, if the game launched in a state where general features expected of a Halo game were available, it would probably have been better received.

#

I thought your point was more that because it was an arena shooter, even if it released in such a condition, there is a lower reasonable expectation for popularity than there used to be

hollow sand
#

well that is sort of my point.

  1. If Halo launched in better condition it would be more popular.

  2. Even though it would be more popular I don't think it would be as popular as Apex Legends, PUBG, Fortnite, COD

livid fable
#

I mean isn't Apex basically dead right now?

#

and call of duty is certainly popular, but I don't think I understand something if we are saying that it is not an arena shooter

hollow sand
#

Its 6th most played game on Steam and 4th by multiplayer only

#

So its population is significant

white birch
knotty ermine
#

ugh I hate apex. were never getting titanfall because of it

hollow sand
#

Call of Duty isn't really an arena shooter. Although you do fight in arenas.

Arena shooters that I am talking about are Quake, Unreal, etc... You spawn with a basic weapon and move across the map to collect better ones off teh ground. Map control = weapon control

white birch
#

I mean, they just fixed TF2 on consol and PC so who knows.

hollow sand
#

Halo is the console version of Quake/Unreal and also the last remaining popular arena shooter

white birch
knotty ermine
white birch
#

Spawn with the meta gun, wait for a newb to run acros syour vision.
Kill them. Repeat.
Theres a reason stuff like Shipment 24/7 is popular in the current version

knotty ermine
#

and it's only "popular" not because it's good. but because you can get a kill in less than a second when you're in

#

in reality it's a horrible map only loved by farmers

livid fable
#

ngl that sounds uncompelling as heck

#

that sounds like League of Legends but worse

hollow sand
#

shipment and stuff I think is largely a way for people to reclaim community server play within the context of matchmaking

#

CoD2 we would play like 24- or 32 player Carentan and the map was bigger but it was still a mess

livid fable
#

you know, that's something I hadn't considered. I think you just helped me out with a crucial design element.

#

holy smokes. I get it. that's why people dislike loadouts so much

knotty ermine
#

people dislike loadouts?

livid fable
#

not everyone!

#

but a lot of people do not want loadouts to come to Halo

knotty ermine
#

oh yeah no hell no

#

halo is halo. not call of duty. reason why I left halo 4 and moved on to pc

#

just not giving them my time when they wanted to pretend to be like cod.

livid fable
#

you mean when they were expressing their unique vision

knotty ermine
#

If I want laodouts in a shooter, i'll play battlefield where it works

#

lol that "unique" vision is as garbage as snyders vision

livid fable
#

I can't type in green text here, so sarcasm goes unseen

knotty ermine
#

I still find it funny that they hired people that didn't like halo to make halo 4

livid fable
#

I heard that was a myth.

knotty ermine
#

frankie was the one that admitted to it

coarse dagger
#

There is a full quote that provides context

livid fable
#

I would need to see the interview to determine if I interpret it the same way.

coarse dagger
#

That's not what 343 did

livid fable
#

does anyone have access to that full quote?

coarse dagger
#

"We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.' So we ended up with a bunch of people who were genuinely passionate about the product. That is a huge advantage, and that helped in hiring and forming our team."
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/making-i-halo-4-i-a-story-about-triple-a
Hated was more than likely a much stronger word that Frank meant to use at the time, but you rarely get to follow up / clarify these things before they're cemented in

livid fable
#

rumors like this seem like they should be especially easy to crush when they are demonstrably false. but I also know that's not generally how rumors work.

#

oh

#

yeah, I can definitely see why there are people who have different interpretations of that quote and why the rumor has not quite been crushed.

#

the politest way I can phrase it is, I don't think discussing it here is going to bear fruit

coarse dagger
#

We're still correcting the "half of Bungie moved to 343" myth over a decade later, misinformation spreads faster than it can ever be corrected

knotty ermine
#

regardless. hate or dislike or not like the game in some aspect is what can change an entire blueprint that the game has. we're obviosuly never going to know the truth because why would they want to admit their f ups on a game that came out in 2012 at this point. and NDA reasons as well

#

I know some people from bungie moved to 343 but I wouldn't say half or a specific ammount

coarse dagger
#

It was around 10

knotty ermine
#

I remember seeing an vidoc with a original bungie dev in it. I forgot his name but I knew his face in that h4 vidoc

coarse dagger
#

Probably Vic DeLeon

livid fable
#

I am very glad that Halo infinite benefited from the mistakes made in the Halo 4 campaign and the Halo 5 campaign

#

I won't say it's perfect, but I can say that I don't think any of the problems I had with Halo 4 or 5's campaign are present in Halo infinite campaign

hollow sand
#

Bungie has also been making crap since Halo: Reach so ymmv

livid fable
#

I like reach, but ODST did the campaign better

knotty ermine
#

reach and odst did so well as campaign stories. I could go back to those games than ever touching the h4 campaign

#

as for infinite. probably in the future I would replay the whole game again on legendary and get all the hvt and stuff done. I like the open world aspect. but I think it shouldn't be done all the time

#

if they didn't put so much effort on those HVT, they probably could've had more story missions that were more diverse than just playing on the same area of the ring.

#

like imagine if there's something you need but it's on another part of the ring and it's snowy or a desert. heck a fan made campaign did this

livid fable
#

I have no idea why they did this.

knotty ermine
#

they made a story where it takes placed right after halo 3. it takes place in a covenant ship, on a desert and on a normal green area before you go inside the forerunner structures fighting flood. then the next and final campaign is a boss fight in a flood area with the gravemind

knotty ermine
#

I literally grappled 90% of the boss fight because of it

livid fable
#

spider chief, spider chief. does whatever a spider chief does.

#

I died a hilarious number of times against the guy with the rocket launcher that I didn't realize could track me though. I kept on trying to get to him in a wasp.

knotty ermine
#

thats something I noticed and even some people on here also recognized it as well

#

most of the bosses just has a modified weapon. but the A.I is the same

livid fable
#

I don't really think it's reasonable to expect them to manipulate the behavior of bosses on individual levels

knotty ermine
#

Would've been cooling fighting a pilot squad of banshees though

livid fable
#

see, now I'm sad, because that does sound really cool

knotty ermine
#

as a HVT objective

livid fable
#

that's what that stinking jackal should have been

#

the pilot

#

with the super needler

knotty ermine
#

and instead of just HVT. it could be a convoy of banished troops with human prisoners

low musk
#

Is there a way to do better in sword fights? I feel like I can’t gain any momentum

livid fable
#

if you want to do it on controller, try greatly increasing your sensitivity on ninja Slayer matches

#

additionally, this is team-based Ninja slayer. friendly fire is off. the enemies either have to use grenades of their own or close the distance to get close to your allies. you might as well throw sticky grenades at your own allies since you can't kill them and it might weaken any nearby enemy Shields enough to let your allies get the kills

#

don't forget you can crouch

#

ambushing works super well

#

general Halo rules still apply. don't pick Fair fights.

#

team up, go to on one or three on one, and when you see groups of them, throw grenades and get out of there

grim citrus
#

Is infection still a thing in infinite

fallen flame
#

yes

low musk
#

Like is there any difference if I use the trigger or the the melee button? Does jumping give me any advantage, or grappling? Simple things

misty vale
heady escarp
#

I feel like im the only one who like cried at the end of halo reach because i bond myself so much to these charakters.
In my opinion halo 3 and reach have one of the best campaigns

civic sundial
grim citrus
civic sundial
#

Yes

#

You can go into Infinite right now and see that infection is one of the modes you can play

fallen flame
#

Infection is a main mode which isn't being removed lol

civic sundial
#

Indeed

grim citrus
#

Oh. I’m curious because I remember people were raving on how halo needed it, but I barely hear people talk about it

livid fable
grim citrus
#

I’m not following. Infection is in halo so what are you waiting on

livid fable
#

so

#

there is a mode that is called infection

#

you can expect differences from older versions of the mode because it is in a new game

#

however, the differences are sufficient that I enjoy infection in the older Halo games and I do not enjoy infection in Halo infinite

#

these are personal preferences only. not a statement regarding the popularity of infection as a mode.

#

so when I say I am still awaiting on infection, I mean I am still waiting on an official infection game mode which is at least comparably enjoyable to play as the infection game mode on the older games

grim citrus
livid fable
#

several things

grim citrus
#

Besides the shotgun

livid fable
#

actually, let's go ahead and start with the shotgun just to get it out of the way

grim citrus
#

Anything else

livid fable
#

the bulldog has better range and can fire and reload pretty quickly.

#

that means for a zombie to be viable, it either needs to have a sufficient amount of health to take the edge of a bulldog shot and keep going, or has to be really fast, or both

wise lichen
#

until they fix matchmaking, im just gonna keep leaving matches if things end up obviously one sided

livid fable
#

they have reduced the running speed for the zombies, but it was in a pretty difficult to manage way

#

I say that to say this: shotgun aside, Halo infinite physics are inherently different and are going to require different tweaks. I am not talking about these adjustments which are necessary to make for the purpose of making the game functional.

#

now that the shotgun and general physics are out of the way,

grim citrus
#

That is correct. To me, physics is a massive downgrade

livid fable
#

I get what they were going for but I just don't care.
you start out now with very little ammunition and you have to go find better weapons or more weapons scattered around the map

#

it's like a worse done version of call of duty zombies

#

and if you're a zombie, you don't get your ai, you don't get a silent ai, you get probably the second most annoying character introduced in Halo infinite in your ear every single time something happens

#

there's this general attempt to create an atmosphere of horror while at the same time having what feels like a joke character taking itself too seriously whinging the entire time you are playing

#

tonal dissonance is not something I thought would be a mode killer for me but here we are

grim citrus
#

Now I understand, thanks

livid fable
#

there are a couple of things I think are improvements

#

The last Spartan standing mechanic isn't a bad one. giving the last Spartan standing infinite ammo of whatever weapon they have is also a welcome and fun thing.

#

but it takes all game to get there

#

and it lasts for about 30 seconds

grim citrus
#

There are improvements, but the cons outweigh the pros

livid fable
#

to make matters perhaps worse, before infection officially released on Halo infinite, people were recreating old infection modes from other games, including long evolving hallway stages with tons of players

#

and these infection modes made by the community were extremely fun to play as someone who enjoys infection modes

#

I wanted infection, not the next chapter of the multiplayer story

tulip tusk
#

if anyones interested in custom game mods for mcc there's a gamenight tonight

slim flint
#

enough about SBMM, we need to address matches being specifically designed so I can’t do my challenges

onyx latch
#

Again?

#

My god, I knocked out all the challenges in an hour.

neon vapor
#

I feel like they should make challenges harder

#

They’re weekly challenges, beating them all in an hour is a little bit underwhelming

#

Would be cool if they had harder weekly challenges, and daily’s that are kind of what we have now but less “win matches”

magic night
#

Part of me would like challenges to be more involved and engaging, but the other part doesn't want to grind anymore than I have to.

dusk whale
magic night
#

Kinda funny that I don't remember people complaining that some of the challenges in Reach weren't easily completable.

#

Sometimes they'd have LASO as weekly challenges. Maybe even daily although my memory is a bit fuzzier there.

solar night
#

These spartan VIIs don’t really feel like halo much anymore

neon vapor
#

?

solar night
#

I retract my statement

misty vale
#

Free to play has the community trained to ignore gameplay focus on dress up

#

And it's on purpose what brings home the bacon is dress up

#

So situations like the splatter backdrop happen

dusk whale
# magic night Kinda funny that I don't remember people complaining that some of the challenges...

i never played reach back then (didn't have an xbox anymore in that time), but if the challenges-system was comparable as MCC's, then you didn't have to complete all the challenges to (slowly) progress through the prizes. In Infinite you need to complete every single one if you want the cosmetics and they won't get back (fomo).

If would love it if they would go to a system more like MCC where you for instance get 20 challenges (and you can progress them all at once). For every challenge you will get 1 token and XP, where the XP is dependent upon the difficulty. And instead of a weekly prize all the prizes are in a seasonal 'shop' where you can claim them for the tokens (so you can just choose wich ones to unlock first). And the prizes should be made so that if you unlock 15 of the 20 tokens per week you can claim everything. This also creates it so players who can do let's say 80% of the challenges normally will still be able to get prizes, where now they get nothing. Challenges now are just not rewarding unless you know you can beat all of them in that week.

For the challenges i would then get 5 for campaign (so players who don't have the campaign can still complete it if they get all the multiplayer challenges, and those who did buy the campaign still have a bonus for it) and 15 MP challenges, where those are for instance 8 easy ones (of wich 4 are also available for Bot Bootcamp and firefight if/when that arrives), 4 mediocre ones and 3 hard ones. The easy ones can get 100 XP, the mediocre ones 200 XP and the hard ones 300 XP.

fathom sandal
#

They were very achievable even for more casual low skilled players

magic night
#

LASO is by no means something a casual/low skill player would find achieveable. It requires know-how and for most people, and external guide. In addition, the LASO ones usually required you to do specific missions, so you couldn't cheese them by just playing Nightfall

Some other examples I found of weekly and daily challenges in Reach that are far more difficult than anything in infinite.

-Complete ONI Sword Base on Legendary without dying
-Win 50 games of multiplayer matchmaking this week
-Complete Tip of the Spear, without dying, on Legendary with Mythic, Thunderstorm, Tilt, and Tough Luck on.
-Kill 1000 enemies in multiplayer Matchmaking this week.
-Complete 150 games in multiplayer Matchmaking this week.

uneven bison
dusk whale
#

maybe he meant Mark VII's?

uneven bison
#

Either way, what “feels like halo” is entirely subjective.

dusk whale
#

that is correct

solar night
uneven bison
#

Ok, what doesn’t “feel like halo” about it then?

solar night
#

The armor feels too techie. Halo is more of a grounded sci fi thing, but mark 7 feels too ornate or decorated

#

A great departure from the mark 6 armor (superior armor)

uneven bison
#

I…

#

I’m at a loss

#

The entire reason we don’t have 4/5 style anymore was because of the vitriol that people had for it.

#

They used the exact same wording you just used as well

solar night
#

Major bummer man

solar night
uneven bison
#

Halo 4/5

livid fable
#

hm?

#

oh, the Halo 4 and 5 Spartan armor?

#

to be honest I don't even really consider them to be the same style

solar night
#

Mark 5 armor is a very close second to mark 6 in terms of design, but I’m not a huge fan of the giant slit in the front of the helmet between the two portrusions

uneven bison
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Let me get this straight. You don’t like mark7, because it is too detailed? Despite its entire point of existence is to mimic halo 3/reach style?

solar night
#

I mean it’s alright. Was never a huge fan of reach armor tho

#

(Gonna get a ton of hate for that)

uneven bison
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I’m not hating that. It’s exceptionally bland

#

(The reach armor)

solar night
#

Real

uneven bison
#

Whatever, I suppose this is the reason we have different cores though

slim flint
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I like Reach’s stuff, but I prefer the Halo 3 designs

solar night
#

The thing I hate most about reach armor is the absence of shoulder pads

slim flint
uneven bison
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Shoulder pads in reach are hard to choose because none of them are exceptionally unique, and the good ones are the ones everyone else has

#

So you don’t end up looking unique at all

solar night
#

I sure do love helljumper armor

azure arch
#

yall remember old style halo clans?

balmy cypress
#

How emotionally attached was I supposed to be to the characters in halo reach?

#

I kinda forgot about everyone after their death and I feel weird about it

onyx latch
livid fable
solar night
#

Now Sgt Johnson was different story

livid fable
#

i still say odst did it better than reach

#

it was campy as hell but yanno what? heck with it

solar night
#

Oh yeah odst characters were more memorable

livid fable
#

"Lord, I don't have to do anymore flying today, right?"
NYYYYAARRRRRUMBOOOOOM
"....so... was that a yes, or a no?"
KRAKOWM
"Amen."

grim citrus
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Halo 4/5 armor actually gave us a wide range of Spartan suits that vary from agile, to bulky. I miss that.

Where you can have a brute armour like Fred’s, to a slender, but agile armour like vale

onyx latch
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It problably would've meant more if armor changed how you played.