Please bring some justice to Red Berliner [BG]

[topaz salmon]

https://youtu.be/K7A7LLNIdLI

Can we get some love for Berliner Gruppierung?
**Problems: **

1. Currently its the only redfor deck with zero aerial recon assets. NO recon helis/drones/planes. <<< that is unique and MAJOR WEAKNESS. You can not push behind any obstacle
2. best unit in tank tab - 100mm AT gun
3. no heavy or advanced tech other than 1card of Su-22M4K(AT)
4. every DLC adds new techological wonders(laser-guided arty, great planes/drones, SIGINT/GSR/Instructor/mountanier units) leaving Berliner further and further behind.
5. your best assets in thig deck are wachshurzen lineup and 8HP napalm Mig-21 bomber, but infantry wachbois lose to french/german airborne inf in direct fight and 8HP nap migs got nerfed with decrease of napalm damage.
6. TO-55 for some reason DO NOT fire flamethrower even on 5 FAV Marders.
7. Only SF unit in cat C "shock infantry" deck is 6 men-team with bad weapon (RPG-18 and SVD)
8. Currently Pioneers AGI have way to high supply cost for their fmalethrower. It is weak and inaccurate and refill is too costly for what it does.
9. The only way to use tank tab is to get 4 cards of twice upvetted T-55 and add AT guns. No good options, no variety.

**Currently deck is in unique position: **absolutely no aerial recon, best tank is AT gun, infantry better than standard but way behind airborne, best fire support is BTR-70 and T-55A, incredibly weak in open, air tab with 2 good AT planes and mostly single use L39/Mig-21 and lot of standard arty.

Proposals are in my first comment:

Possible things to improve - would be glad to hear community's opinion on each option:

1. Move BM-21-1 Napalm from KdA to BG to follow "napalm-heavy" city fighting deck concept. This one change gonna make deck way more capable.
2. Address the issue with napalm/flame units behaviour. TO-55 flamer doesn't engage mid armor, MiG-21 napalm doesn't target heavy armor with napalm bombs.
3. Give Berliner back ZiS-3 for quick smoke ability and lower its supply cost to 5-10 supply per shot. Its smallest caliber and weakest howitzer in the game.
4. Consider giving this deck some realistic 1950-1970s DDR equipment for city fight: SPW 152 ZPU-2/4, IS-2, ZSU-57-2, "coffin launchers", smoke MLRS or 6x82mm M-43 mortar, Some of this options can be justified.
5. Give wachschutzen 'military police' trait to work with KdA or smoke.
6. Make unicorn units actually worth it: Motschutz(Strela), TO-55, rocket SU-22, Napalm MiG-21, Wachschutzen(STOSS), M-30, Pioneer (AGI) are currently underperforming or not worth availability-wise. Availability/price can be adjusted to make these units worth picking.

Your thoughts?

[soft crow]

give them mot schutzen with BMP-1Ps as they had historically, and mot razvedka in (unique to the east germans) auflk. BMP-1P

[white bridge]

I am in the minority (quite possibly the one person on earth) who thinks this div is decent. Then again I play it quite a bit.

With that said many say it's either horrendous or the actual worst div and I they're probably more right than me.

I think some smaller basic changes might be in order first, just to see how they hit. Not making the infantry units at its core too expensive could be a start.

The military police trait is not a bad idea. Sure, it stretches the idea of it a little bit, but it's not like the concept is all that realistic in WARNO in the first place.

[jagged monolith]

1st one really makes sense for lore perspective but
It would also be devastating for 10v10 arty spammer so it would be even better
However
Wouldn't 80 rocket one make more sense historical wise as bg already gets he one?
And my proposal
While kubs are nice getting some ~7km missile range fighters (even one card) would be nice
As for justification let's say it was redirected into Berlin to intercept NATOs air force trying to help Berlin garrison
And a crazy suggestion which I know is complety unrealistic
||Give it tos-1 though I guess coffin launchers would be enough||

[tender barn]

The two problems I find is that they have far too many redundant units (Such as having basically 6 near identical pioneer units, and 4 recon teams with the exact same load outs.) and that they lack a proper direct fire support.

IMHO, axe a whole bunch of KDA units which should just be in KDA anyway and KDA equipment which no one uses anyway (Zis-2, T-34, etc).

If we give Wachschutzen airborne (They're supposed to be LtsR, which were paratroopers first) and give the special forces Grenzer some heavy equipment.

We can have a hammer of Wach/Grenzer to clear out cities and have the slower Moto-Schutz as the anvil proving the wall. They would be a great city choice.

Similarly axe Zis-2, Pak-85 and T-34. Replace it with actual tanks in reserve in Berlin (T-64A obr 83 and T-62 obr 75 for example) for some much needed punch and direct fire support, while struggling to slug things out in range.

On a slightly more controversial note, I think it would be pretty flavourful if we added a few infiltrator units to represent some of the saboteur cells that were placed all over West Germany for this exact thing.

[tepid dragon]

Generally like alot of these.

Note Berliner is getting the SNAR-10 CB radar with the arty rework. Notably moving BM-21nalpalm to here makes good amount of sense and might nerf KDA in team games where it sees large amount of play. Could be a good balancer.

All for any number of the other outlined changes. Likely increase in availability to lots of inf cards (#6) (strela, wazchutz, AGI etc) could help with upvet making it more of a menace

[mighty nimbus]

ACTUALLY 🤓

303 doesn't have aerial recon assets either, but yeah a recon heli would be nice.
AND why would a TO-55 fire at armored targets? Flamethrowers (& Napalm) don't work like that in game.

Also I don't think a div needs every new tech wonder added to the game, neither does it need super SF squads either, frankly I'd like less hyper marines.

Otherwise I do agree on buffing berliner, most of your suggestions were pretty good.
-# Do note that the entire point about technological upgrades was just never picked up, hammering even further that uou don't need 1st of the line fresh of the factory units.

[primal oasis]

I think red berlinner should be made to be good without giving it soviet heavy tanks.

I have no idea on the realism of this idea but forward deploy D44 guns could be interesting

35ya gets frwd deploy d44s and they work pretty well in that deck

if red berlin got those I think it would be good. It would make it lean more into the "Im going to play sd2 while everyone else plays warno" identity

[primal oasis]

The ideas I like are:
forward deploy infantry
recon infantry in recon bmp1 *or recon btr
forward deploy d44
I do like the idea of red berlin getting some extra artillery, but I dont like the idea of taking the napalm away from kda, I dont think we should rob peter to pay paul.
Giving red berlin nplm mlrs would be fun (cluster mlrs would also be fun but I see this as highly unlikely to happen)
Another very very out there idea is giving them the thermobaric version of the SMERCH which isnt in the game yet.
I am unsure on the timeline of thermobaric SMERCH I have no idea if it is out of timeframe.

[tender barn]

I wouldn't call T-64A and T-62 with 15mm riveted to the UFP "heavy" by any means

The biggest issue is more that there is no real mobility when it comes to fire support roles, right now the best you have is a few unstabilized t-55's. Berliner is a brawler faction through and through. So this is for better assistance clearing buildings, not so that they can slug it out with other tanks.

[primal oasis]

I think you are not being honest with yourself, because your reasoning does not make any sense, at all. T55A is an excellent fire support vehicle for its price. Its probably the best tank at the fire support role because it is so cheap and has decent armour. The T62 shoots alot slower than the T55, I am pretty sure for its price, it should be worse than the T55 as a fire support vehicle, and the T55 is almost half the price of the T64A, so 2 T55s should have more dps than a single T64A.
So those tanks you want to give to red berlin do not help clearing buildings, I think you have another goal in mind. Its understandable, red berlin is bad at fighting nato heavy tanks, but that is a very important part of its identity and that should not change. It is important that red berlin does not get those better tanks you want to give it.

[cinder saddle]

I have nearly 100 games in ranked on this div and I hope if the division gets buffed, it does not get buffed by getting ifvs. I don't care if they had them irl or not, I think the div has an interesting motorized feel to it with being spw-70 heavy and pact already gets a lot of ifvs in most of the divisions. Maybe mot. aufklärer with bmp-1 could be okay, possible moved from 6-YA to BG.

It could benefit from something like mi-2 recon to utilize UPK better in the opener and help the div there especially during openers, but then again a lot of divs can already do rocket plane heavy openers so not too sure about that.

You could also give the div something nasty like RM-70 with cluster rounds or/and napalm.

[primal oasis]

the cluster grad that 31y gets was supposedly very new technology and so a bit rare. The prima (cluster grad) is probably going to stay as a unicorn and probably won't be given to red berlin. I imgaine that the historical accuracy people would probably start to complain alot if high tech soviet equipment was given to the east germans.

[primal oasis]

Although, I think that giving them cluster grad is a good idea and would be quite fun.
And about the ifv thing you are talking about, yeah I do see that as another distinct weakness they have, having cheap atgm bmp1s would help them alot, but you are also right that them not having bmp1s with atgms also makes them distinct. The moscow deck gets recon infantry in recon btrs. Aswell as 2y Moscow, Nem6 1y aslo gets recon infantry in recon btrs. So red berlin could get recon infantry in a recon vehicles without giving them bmp1s. They also do really need a recon heli to help co-ordinate their air and artillery fire support.

[primal oasis]

on the historical issue of no bmp1s in red berlin. I think for whatever reason all of red berlin's bmp1s got given over to 6ya.

[soft crow]

Which is complete nonsense as they have bmp-1s of their own

[primal oasis]

just if this makes your point stronger, another youtuber also did a tier list and they both agree that red berlin is probably the deck that struggles the most at the moment (both rank red berlin at the bottom)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgNwwgSeQPg

[primal oasis]

for comparison, the tierlist originally linked by OP is:

[primal oasis]

yeah. I think the consensus is that 6y is one of the best decks in the game. SD league ranks it as number 3, Hippie ranks it as number 2. Swapping some of 6y's east german toys over to red berlin is an option, if everyone wants to start nerfing all the meta decks.
I'm against swapping toys from KDA (taking away kda nplm mlrs and giving them) to red berlin because KDA isnt a top tier meta deck, but 6y is a meta deck so I see some rebalancing of 6y as a good option.

[topaz salmon]

KDA is top 10vs10 arty spam deck with excessive arty tab and moving one of its 5 MLRS to Berliner might be welcome in order of getting less toxic KdA in 10vs10 games

[primal oasis]

10v10 will always be toxic you will never change that. the only good mlrs kda gets is the nplm grad. The nplm grad is extremely good tho. but kda doesnt even actually get the regular grad. the bm24 is rubbish and the smerch is very hit or miss. You don't realise this, but if you simply gave red berlin a nplm grad, it would be 10 times more toxic than current kda, because that would mean red berlin would have 2 regular grads, and 1 nplm grad. The motivation behind your idea is very very bad, because it would have the opposite effect of what you intend.

[topaz salmon]

Thank you for telling me what I realise and what I don't. I read your full statement and 'the only good mlrs kda gets is the nplm grad' was intriguing to say the least.

Right now KdA must have are :
2 2S7 Malkas
2 Smerch
1 Nplm Grad

and optional good units are
long range T-62MW
Buks
2 cards of MiG-27 AT

• unlimited amount of trashy-to-ok infantry.

so KdA can browl(trade trash inf for targets for nplm+Pions) can hold in max range engagements (2 cards of 2800m ATGM tanks + Smerch) can be viable in airsupport role (SEAD + 2 cards of great MiG-27AT, MiG-25 bomber)

Sadly contrary to your 'vision', moving napalm grad to Berliner(short range brawler with no chances of holding in open max range fight) doesn't gonna make Berliner second KdA or make it nultirole div.

Thank you.

[primal oasis]

No thats not true, the smerch isnt a must bring, its ok, but not anything to write home about though. People often take the 152mm guns instead. Also you are the guy that brought up that kda has 5 mlrs pieces, despite the fact people only consistently bring the nplm as a must pick mlrs option.

[jagged monolith]

Irrc
Msd which gave bmp-1s to Berlin had like 100 of them
While in game 6-ya gets only 7 of them at vet0
There is definitely room to give Berliner like 2/3 cards of bmp mot shutzen/ 1 cv

[sullen sentinel]

BG got MiG-31Ms now. Praise Honecker

Also damn you bot for erasing my posts

[topaz salmon]

Wait what? Are you trolling?

[sullen sentinel]

Hippie latest vid (post patch build) shows it. BG stole it from 6ya which doesn't have them now

[topaz salmon]

Wtf??
Who in his genius mind came to idea like that?
BG has enough long range AA and does not have any expensive tanks that need long range fighter escort.

Looks like Trump-level problem solving.
We have long list of problems BG has, listed some if it in original post.
Instead of solving what's needed, we got this .
What's next, SEAD plane? )))

If some metaboi 1vs1 influencer decided to make Air tab better, I would rather prefer to see divisional unicorn Su-22M4 [UPK] adjusted to be worth picking.

[hexed sonnet]

Its a 6y nerf first and foremost, Mig-31 had to go somewhere - what better place than BG

[topaz salmon]

Not a single aerial recon asset in BG but now we get MiG-31 for deck that gonna keep players zoomed in microing their infantry.
Problem is that Eugene not gonna give BG both MiG AND necessary buffs

[jagged monolith]

Considering Berliner is mostly 10v10 div
Let's go

[white bridge]

so sick, the undefeatable deck got even more undefeatablier

[primal oasis]

I hope a few more BG buffs are still on the agenda