8th US missing tank destroyers/apaches

[amber siren]

In the army general, 8th US gets access to a large amount of M901A3 ITV tank destroyers in its weapons platoons, plus has 2 aviation brigades nearby with apaches that can support it, not to mention 2 apaches in its already existing aviation brigade containing its cobras. In the multiplayer version, they have only 1 card of M901A3 ITV with the tow 2, and no apaches. Why?

Compare this to 39ya, which is handsomely equipped with 2 cards of brdm konkurs, 1 card of mt-12 rapira, and 2 cards of mtlb sturm-s, despite their only nearby attachable source being from their divisional command unit, with about 1 card worth of sturm-s, 2 cards worth of mt-12 rapira, and 1 card worth of brdm-2 konkurs if you add up the few assigned to the btr infantry units. They also get a very good amount of mi-24 helicopters with 2800 kokon range, about the same amount assigned to them as the not-as-good cobras assigned organically to 8th.

To further showcase the inconsistency, the units that 8th US gets its rangers from ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THE APACHES, IN BOTH CASES.

8th US does not get IFVs in its infantry tab, and suffers from obscenely expensive infantry ATGMs, not to mention has no 2800 range atgms to counter pact ones, and has only mediocre stealth compared to usual pact good stealth. It could use 1 more card of M901A3 tank destroyers to match the overabundance of BRDM-konkurs + sturm-s + rapiras that pact divs seem to enjoy, plus a few cards of apaches in their ATGM, mixed, and RKT variants to match the oppressiveness of 2800 range, extremely fast, 20 pen mi-24 kokons.

[digital kelp]

lol, the DivCom is not the only place you can find ATGMs in a Soviet division IRL nor in AG

Regt AT is 6 MT-12, 12 BRDM-2 Konkurs

Division is 16 MT-12, 12 BRDM-2 Konkurs

you have 3 regiments with AT, that is all motorrifle regiments

Total is 34 MT-12, 48 BRDM-2 Konkurs before attachments, and Shturm-S is an army-level attachment; 8ID has 60 M901 of various types, and you do get two cards of M901

[digital kelp]

Additionally, AG MTW =/= MP MTW; They are very different

OTL AH-64 didn’t get in 8ID until decently later (NET 90), and in AG they get them while MP they don’t

[fierce jacinth]

Seems fine to me. 8th has never truly recovered from the Dragon nerfs and its in a place right now where its hard to justify taking. I would the Rangers to see some love too as right now they're the worst INF tab Special Forces unit in the entire game.

[prisma gazelle]

8th is great

[amber siren]

ah yes let me just take my maximum value 80pt mech rifles dragon with 1200m "atgm" (outranged by everything bigger than an mmg, also bc of slow travel time and long reload if there is more 1 vehicle you are, as they say it, quite boned) in my 75kph high velocity m113 and zoom it over to the frontline, to get outsped and outgunned by the cheaper (lol) 75pt motostrelki 100kph btr-60 with kpvt (bigger than .50 cal), outclassed by the 80pt motostrelki bmp-1pg (with a temu tank cannon plus missiles, also grenade launcher welded on), massacred by 100pt motostrelki bmp2 with autocannon (at least its more expensive))), well thats unfortunate but at least i get rangers!!!!!!!!!! nah jk saperi rpo is coming, but i get flash!!!!! which still loses to saperi rpo and dies quick to regular squads due to 5manpower. Unfortunate, but at least i get attack helis!!!! which get 1 shot and zoned out by osas, outranged by strelas, and overwhelmed by shilkas/brdm strelas. but kiowa wr!!!!! which has 4hp and dies to a strategically placed igla team (enemy forgot it was there), and it has only 4 missiles, so you blow your load and have to place resupply simulator to constantly go back and forth to get max value before it inevitably either gets discombobulated by an osa from 3175m away, 1-tapped by a mtlb strela, or accidently catches half a burst from a shilka. But you get a-10!!!!!! which is actually pretty good, just limited by fact that a single kub or osa makes it go away. also expensive. But tanks!!!! which are good, but slots are icky and you can only get 1 card of tow 2 itv to help them with being outranged in tank fights (39ya gets 5 cards of atgm carriers/tank guns and an atgm on every single t-80, so you are automatically outranged the second you spawn in).

By itself 8th is ok, but every single time i play 39ya and face 8th us, from 1v1 to teamgames, i have never had problems swatting them aside, they are reasonably helpless against bmp swarm + brdm atgm swarm + kokons

Also for those who say your m1a1 abrams beat 39ya, be educated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnEO01oGyk

also also lmao 275pt "heavy tank", gets cohesion nuked and outshot by t-72/t-80b autoloader at cqc range and zoned out by atgm outside of max tank gun range, if you play t-80b you dont even have to use the trick, just either cohesion nuke from distance then move in or just charge in and watch them melt, soviets have very good hard stats at close and long range, its only max tank gun range at which m1a1 has somewhat of advantage

[prisma gazelle]

Imma be honest, I am not gonna read all that. If you don't like it, all power to you, but it is simply not a bad div.

Okay I did actually read it, and it is genuinely a skill issue, sorry to say

[amber siren]

youre free to have an opinion

[amber siren]

ok actually rereading my post i definitely got too ranty, i stand by those examples but recognize they arent a very constructive way to frame my suggestion, i go back to my original point

[prisma gazelle]

A division seeing constant use at top play simply doesn‘t need major buffs

[brazen kite]

8thus is really strong in teamgames because the core of ihawk/m110/4 cards of M1A1/f16/deep inf tab lets you play a lot of divs around it both AB stuff and heavier divs as well. the Combo of Ranger + Flash squad is really strong for inf grinding etc, Sure having no ifvs/At-4s kinda sucks but you have a ton of other tools (cev,LRS, Kiowa Wr, M901, Tow2 etc) that you can play around depending on what you need to.

M1A1s backed by Ihawk and M110 cover are really scary and can win most tank fights even against T72bs/T80s since once you get into gun range you start to win hard even at reduced cohesion not even considering Tow2/CV support. I used it in a ton of tourneys and normal games and had no issues with them.

[grizzled saddle]

I also believe 12th CAB is represented in 3rd AD already.

[amber siren]

no thats 3ad's organic cab

the 2 i refer to are different

[digital kelp]

12CAB is V Corps, not 8ID

[amber siren]

not in 10v10 or medium-sized teamgames against a 119ya/2ya player, once enough aa goes up the only units that can do work at range are infantry tow 2, m901 tow 2 and m3 bradley, m901 is the most practical and cost efficient of the 3 but you only get 1 card, with 2 total including the i-tow variant, meanwhile 39 an equivalent type unit gets access to 5 cards, which is plenty, whenever i played pact vs pact teamgames i noticed 39 vs 119 matchup is so much more forgiving than 8th vs 119, i think 8th should get more access to tow 2 to balance with its contemporary

[grizzled saddle]

Yes but for the MP division I believe its apache numbers (atleast previously) included apaches from the CAB. I mean historically the Corp CAB would have been used for the corp deepfight and the DivCAB div support.

[digital kelp]

okay dude if youre available tomorrow I’d love to hop in a 10-10 playing my 8ID larp deck and you can rock 119

we coordinate which lane

[amber siren]

yes and corps level cab can be attached anywhere anytime priority is given, in the army general which i assume is the theme setting 119 + 79ya heads into the north half of line manned by 8th, so it makes sense 12th would go support 8th and/or 11th head up there instead

[amber siren]

sure, dm

[grizzled saddle]

Units with Apaches in V Corp. All of 12th CAB and one battalion in 3rd and 11th got them at some time around now (though I believe it was slightly later in 1990).

Discounting 11 ACR that puts V corp with forward deployed units at 3 battalions of apache and 3 battalions of cobra with two battalion of apache reserved for corp deepfight and 1 battalion of apache and 3 battalions cobras avalaible for direct divisional support

[amber siren]

im basing it off of army general not vague doctrinal real life since i see it as unfeasible to ask for change outside of eugens framework/historical research, unit equipment in army general is something that eugen itself researched and implemented after all, is more likely to do