#Buff SEAD

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

night field
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I feel SEAD has been in a generally mediocre to bad state for a while. The mechanic should be punishing since there is a simple counterplay that should be encouraged. Three buffs I would like SEAD (and EW) planes to have:

  1. Range increase for Anti-Radiation Missiles: AA ranges were buffed to account for aircraft speed a while ago, but SEAD missiles never received the same. This can allow interactions where the SAM gets the first shot. And with suppress on miss, this makes the SEAD plane's shot more likely to miss.

  2. Increase detection range: Make it easier to see potential targets, while keeping the identification range the same. This will allow the player more control on when and where to commit SEAD to an attack run.

  3. New Trait - Wild Weasel: This trait should be given to aircraft that represent dedicated SEAD or EW squadrons whose pilots train for the mission of flying anti-anti-aircraft aircraft. They put the trust in their plane's systems and their training to avoid being accurately targeted by SAMs. IRL the SAMs shouldn't be able to lock and shoot, but this is a close abstraction. The trait will make the planes immune to suppress on miss from ground based missiles. Air-to-Air missiles should still deal suppress on miss, to emphasize escorting fighters. This would be given to planes like the EF-111A, F-4G, MiG-25BM, Su-24MP, future Yak-28PP, and others as deemed suitable.

soft cosmos
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Not sure about the trait, but definitely agree with 1 & 2.

solar fossil
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Actually trait thing is very interesting
Detection range is cool, however, forests LOS breaks the mood. We can hide SAM deep into forest and it will be seen from very close distance. Frequently it results in a situation, where because of limited Angle of Attack we cant destroy discovered unit, while AA actually can kill us

Increasing the range IMO, is not needed.

What actually can be done, is combining your 2-3 points + fix of SEAD LoS in forests.

#

if you want to go hard on air defence, we can reduce HP of them + turn SEAD missiles into HE missiles with splash. It will resolve the issue of AA eating sead missiles with no damage, because random wanted it.

night field
solar fossil
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Another thing i feel bad, is that not all battlegroups have SEADs
I understand when, there is no such unit in country at all, like Canada. However i don't understand, when devs give us strong airtab...without SEADs

Kinda you have given MP to each battlegroup, why keeping SEADs so limited.

Like, 2nd UK inf
As a light div i want to perform from airtab
But because of SEAD limitation, its just guaranteed waste of points.

obsidian sonnet
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  1. Don't increase the range for sead missiles, otherwise a single plane would be capable of destroying an infinite number of radar aa systems without any risk. Instead, make the sead missiles work as artillery shells with a high suppression value. It will guarantee that sam is stunned and needs time to recover after the hit.
    One more possible change is to allow sead planes to fire at multiple sam systems with separate reload time.
    Explanation:
    Example 1) 1 plane vs 1 sam. Plane fires sead missile, so to fire the second missile at the same sam system it needs to wait x amount of seconds to "reload" its weapon and fire again.
    Example 2) 1 plane vs 4 sam. A plane can fire 4 sead missiles without reaload (1 missile into 1 sam system).
    These are just ideas which can be changed or improved.

  2. Increasing detection range will create the same problem as the increased missile range, for plane will be capable to spot sams from safe distance to guide artillery. Divs without good fighters support would have 0 chances to counter it. What is needed is to fix how forests work. Its stupid that forests can hide sams from planes without any drawbacks, so trees should give 0 advantage against sead radars.

  3. Sead and ew planes in general should take less suppression from sam systems, it should be class passive (no need to introduce a trait for the trait).

frosty lion
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From my experience sead is already strong and the aa/plane balance in gamemodes with fewer players on appropriate map sizes leans towards planes.

The only buff some sead planes should get is that they fire their missiles slower, or have their missile speed increased. Currently some sead planes fire their second missile before the first has reached its destination, which often leads to overkill.

Ew stuff could see a bit of a buff compared to normal sead.

night field
royal oracle
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the good sead planes are super deadly when it comes to seading, its really just the f4f and the jaguar sead that are kinda mid. its more of less in larger team games it’s impossible to sead 3-6 players AA with a single divs worth of sead. you have to force too many dice rolls on Ihawks/kubs and then the swarm of manpads etc

limber merlin
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SEAD is fine as is. Devs could have changed HEAT missile to HE ones for splash damage, accuarcy but that's not viable for some reason.

In team games the problem is more to do with probability than balance. Buffs need to account for both team and individual games.

open pine
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Wasn't this a mechanic in WGRD that most AA except Tor could not fire from deep forests? Why not implement it in warno as well? This would fix at least two issues with air

royal canopy
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I don't know why SEADS are accuracy based for starters, it makes the French ones ( among others I don't know ) very bad.
I don't know again if the " motion " part changes from the planes strafing, because both ARMAT and MARTEL are very bad ( speed and range )
For such special missiles they should get a bonus on range/accuracy, not sure why they are running the same stat paradigm on say, Tanks or AA Planes.

I agree SEADS should get a special trait above what we see right now, but should be a one time strike, I don't want to see SEADs going around deleting Tunguskas because they dare opening their Radars to DPS. There are issues that should be worked on here before anything.
Conclusion : SEADs are mostly on a good shape, but very situational on some divs to me, or very overpowered on others. And stats are very random.

PS: They should " see " the Radar opened units too much further, but we should get some sort of a counter for that, the game should be fun before being 1100% realistic.

frosty lion
wintry orchid
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AA and Radar implementation in this game is just a huge dog's breakfast. In my opinion this is the best solution we could come up with #feedback message

limber merlin
soft cosmos
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I hope they do an AA rework in the future and we get radar units as AA leaders, like how we're getting artillery leaders with the artillery rework.

zealous heart
rich smelt
wintry orchid
# zealous heart It would pretty much kill radar AA dead imo, if you have to wait 2 ticks to buy ...

Or they can just make us not wait by avail price and things , that can be adjust with ease, or at least let the Missile work independently but have poor acc , i'd like to see my AA smoke the whole map with Illuminating Radar help similar to Artillery Radio and Leader Radio grid in SD2 .It make a good excuses for HawK and KUB being added here despite them always say no to strategic asset and Hawk work like a 2 man AA towed gun is just so bizarre for a history game btw.

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zealous heart
dull slate
wintry orchid
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Please check out this topic Xavi of the shadows

earnest blaze
royal canopy
golden junco
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I don’t think we need to separate radars from launchers in Warno, but a wild weasel trait to avoid stress on miss is a great idea.

I’d also like to propose that turning radar back on takes a few extra seconds so SEAD can actually suppress and reward combined strikes

limber merlin
# royal canopy Thanks for clarifying ! I may have some questions if I get your point well. Shal...

I don't understand how the devs have balanced it.
Accuracy is not a guaranteed variable it is historic IRL.
In my reply I explained the real life application of the missile.
The missile is not special per say. It is just range flexible- say you want to do a First strike saturation attack to wipe out a region's entire air defence in one go- Martel can do that very well because of its long burn range, an air force can knockout radars throughout the region without risking aircraft in radar range and simultaneously.
The Martel was supposed to be more as an Anti-ship missile than a SEAD missile.
Long burn range, High speed and heavier payload (overkill for ground radars).

wintry orchid
golden junco
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At least HARM vs Shrike accuracy matches my DCS experience of Shrikes sucking. Can we please give the F4 some HARMs?

earnest blaze
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2 harms over 5 shrikes would be a good change.

royal oracle
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either that or giving the shrikes salvo two or so

dull slate
limber merlin
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It was originally supposed to be an Anti-ship missile before Harpoon and exocet were developed. The ARM sensor on the missile was very basic.
The missile had to pre-programmed with the radar frequencies enemy was using before the take off. There were no inflight programming capabilities.

#

Pilot would pickup the radio signals on the onboard detection kit and then loose the missile in the general direction.

golden junco
# earnest blaze 2 harms over 5 shrikes would be a good change.

Yeah, that'd be good.
or, probably not gonna happen for Warno, but just give me my DCS loadouts for 500 points 😄
4 Sparrows, 4 Sidewinders, 4 HARMS.
Or 2 HARMs plus 2 Mavs or 12 bombs.
All still with a center fuel tank.

The 5th sparrow or 5th shrike mounted on the center fuel pylon drives me nuts. 😄

royal canopy
# limber merlin I don't understand how the devs have balanced it. Accuracy is not a guaranteed v...

Yeah I see it now, thanks !
Now with a more careful reading I went on a false premise, it looks like every SEAD respond to the same behaviours, differences are just the accuracy and speed.
They are then standardised to interact on a readable scale just like AA range is trimmed, that's what I meant by gamified.

( I don't know why I missed so much with the Martels while other SEADs seem to do well then ... biases perhaps 😆 )

pseudo ember
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My suggestions to make SEAD fun would be:

  1. Increase the range of SEAD planes (and/or fix their targeting so they reliably fire) to make SEAD planes more reliable and deadly.

  2. Put a timer function on the radar, both for turning it into n and turning it off, to make SEAD planes much harder to counter using the very thing SEAD is supposed to counter (ie radars).

  3. Let radar AA shoot even with the radar switched off, but at a range and accuracy more akin to non-radar AA.

I appreciate that (3) might be very hard to implement, but it is meant to ensure that radar AA can be at least as effective as cheaper non-radar AA, when the enemy has air superiority.

solar fossil
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very bad thing

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worldly zephyr
pseudo ember
solar fossil
# pseudo ember Ok. But why?

Because it is toxic

SAM either shoots and destroyed by SEADs, or not
Third state when it shoots with decreased accuracy is bad decision
Basically because then I would just take 4 krugs and will one-shot you, without you being able to do anything to me

earnest blaze
dull slate
wintry orchid
earnest blaze
limber merlin
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I think instead of radical changes what if the Salvo lengths is changed, anything that's worth shooting at once is worth shooting at twice...

golden junco
limber merlin
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Just give all of them two salvo.

golden junco
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Add 4x Harms/Shrikes to all the F16/F4 platforms then, but that would make sense to me so you still get two salvos.

limber merlin
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Then they would also get price nerf.

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Plus 4x SEAD wasn't a common loadout for single pilot aircraft.

worldly zephyr
wintry orchid
dull slate
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F-111F [SEAD] with 2 GBU-15s and 2 AGM-88s is an idea; yeah its australian but the -111Cs were very similar to -111Fs

000-AGM-88-ARDU-1A.png
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most importantly they use the same wing, which means the hardpoints are wired the same way (which is why American F-111Fs were cleared for weapons which the Australians trialed for their F-111Cs)

night field