39th Guards Motorrifle Division

[bleak holly]

This is pretty sound and all but two additional cards of MT-12s and T-80s?

The problem with 39th is that it has abysmal slot costs, not that it had too little stuff.

What you are proposing is that 39ya should have 28x 2800 meter anti-tank missile carriers, alongside all the T-80s and their kobras.

I believe 39ya should be more limited in its tanks since that's what makes 79ya different, It's built around their tanks and the BMPs, 39ya is differentiated by not having as many tanks an instead working with BTRs (with some support by the BMPs)

[lucid bloom]

Interesting idea, where are the additional tank elements coming in from? As mentioned it’s a 4MRR structure giving it 4 tank battalions at best. Is another unit providing from anywhere?

[hollow storm]

there are propsed slot cost changes as well are there not?

[jaunty cosmos]

I feel like the slot changes are very extreme, that would probably instantly catapult the div into insane brokenness on its own. Let's not throw around massive changes like they're candy, and rather keep it small.

[hollow storm]

39ya had an additional tank battalion directly under the division, so it had 5 battalions.

[lucid bloom]

That still puts it actually having less than a 3-1 MRD incidentally, which would have 6.

[hollow storm]

yes but, 39ya also has additional at units from higher commands, and those use tank tab slots.

[finite harbor]

T-80s is to have the independent tank battalion represented. MT-12 is to represent the attached antitank regiment

[lethal wren]

it would place it at roughly the level most base game divisions are at, meaning very good all rounder

[lucid bloom]

That’s fair, though it still seems hard to justify 8 T-80Bs on top of its regular BVs. Like aim said and I mentioned as well in general, an OMG has the potential to be pretty insane on its own by virtue of having both a great infantry and tank tab on top of high quality units. 39y is a decent all rounder already I think, I’d like it buffed since it’s overshadowed by 79, but I’d prefer more of a shake up in the form of new cards of better infantry and more air assault potential.

[jaunty cosmos]

just a friendly reminder that 39ya was one of the best divisions not too long ago

[lethal wren]

you mean the time where it had 5 billion slots, BMP-3s, T-62s and probably other stuff?

[finite harbor]

It is not an insane infantry or tank tab, and-In fact-is degraded in its infantry tab here

[jaunty cosmos]

no, long after that if I'm not completely mistaken

[lethal wren]

well i dont remember 39ya ever being meta so it was long ago i think

[jaunty cosmos]

Just because you can't remember doesn't mean it wasn't though

[lucid bloom]

Tuna, 14 T-80s on an infantry division with room for anti tank forces is quite strong. No other mechanized infantry formation in the game gets close. Personally I’d prefer them end up slightly lacking on the tank tab and instead get a very capable infantry tab like 24ths which is something like 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2 reflecting the 4MRR structure.

[lethal wren]

i dont think theres much point in a deck with tons of inf slots and bad inf however.

idk why is there so much upheaval over a proposal that simply turns 39ya into an A tier div

[jaunty cosmos]

Because it goes way beyond being an A-tier div then. 39ya needs a little better AA slot cost, and the Uragan shouldn't be a straight-up meme. Coupled with a tiny buff to T-80BVs (and the addition of reverse command to helicopters so that heli gameplay wouldn't be so clunky) would already be more than enough.

[lucid bloom]

I think you’re seriously underestimating the benefit this is giving the division on its own. The changes listed give you enough leg room to match 79y’s tank numbers on what is supposed to be a division with less than half its number of tank battalions. Something I mentioned a while ago that I think would be a better addition is to give 39y SVD and Igla motorstrelki which would make them much more competitive in the infantry scene.

[lethal wren]

except you cannot match 79ys tank numbers because not only you still have less slots, but you dont get the free vet T-80BV izd (or the cheap TO-55 for that matter)

i do think the AA tab shouldnt get a slot buff. Its fine as is imo.

what i dont like about this proposal isnt that it makes 39ya too strong, but that it still doesnt give a reason to play it over 79ya imo. So the idea with SVD motostrelki and igla motostrelki is also a great one.

[bleak holly]

Personally I think it's sound but there is absolutely no need for the bajillion MT-12s, if anything they'll just be a huge pain in the ass to fight against.

[lethal wren]

i doubt anyone will even bring that many in any deck lol

[bleak holly]

Then it's uneccesary bloat, why add them?

[pallid mango]

Bring back sitzkrieg meta ❤️

[lethal wren]

because tuna is obsessed with historical accuracy

though the idea to give them non bastion normal MT-12s is not bad at all

[finite harbor]

Remove bastion from them, then!

[finite harbor]

What do you consider most extreme, and why?

It is all based on comparitive slot availability to other divisions. What made it overpowered in the past that it would suddenly be capable of?

[jaunty cosmos]

The tank tab and the AA tab.

It was very strong, as it was able to bring enough IFVs backed up by heavy tanks, while being able to keep the skies clean with its AA. Plus a decent recon and good heli tab.

Now, if you massively buff up the amount of tanks the division can bring, while also buffing up the AA tabs, it goes back to this exact problem. Minor concessions in the inf tab don't really make up for the dirt-cheap tank and AA tabs. And a combination of OSAs, KUBs and Su27 basically ensures complete air domination, enabling the T-80s and BMP-2s to shine.

I do agree btw that those tabs need a buff, just not as extreme as you proposed.

[finite harbor]

-1 card RPG-22, - Su-27?

[graceful steeple]

https://discord.com/channels/471232139661410305/1421541787318878378 quick self plug

[finite harbor]

Osa is a very deliberate inclusion and I do not believe it should be removed; The AA tab generally has nothing standing out as something that would be oppressive. I doubt very much that Su-27 completes it enough to make it overpowered, but nixxing it should be fine. The division has 2 cards of BMP-2s with shitter infantry, I really don't think it is quite that oppressive but switching RPG-22 for more regular motos should work as well

[graceful steeple]

Igla motostrelki and maybe TBG-7 would prob be enough to make the div cool

"you have two cards of BMP-2s" mofos when 2nd pzgren leo2a3 + tornado + roland + 10 billion marders and leo1s (+M110)

[lethal wren]

https://discord.com/channels/471232139661410305/1423401462590865408 shameless plug hehehe

[finite harbor]

@jaunty cosmos thoughts now? Su-27 gone, BMP-2 relegated to 1 card

[jaunty cosmos]

Why make sweeping changes, and then try to fix them with even more changes? As I said, just fix the shit already in the div (like Uragan) and one or two slot adjustments to start with is a much better idea imo. Also remove the Rapira from 79ya and add it to 39ya, idc about historical acc or whatever, it's just dumb that 79ya has straight-up more and better tools.

[finite harbor]

I am suggesting sweeping changes because the division is terribly out of date. It has not been competitive, thematic, or historically accurate in forever and is outmoded in almost every way by modern divisions.

[lethal wren]

its the only division that worse in almost every way to another division, small changes wont fix it

[jaunty cosmos]

39ya isn't terrible though, it is a decent div that lacks uniqueness, and especially the existence of 79ya as is right now makes it useless. A few changes to 79ya, plus a few to 39ya can alleviate this way more easily.
Massive division reworks are horrible in every single way. It risks breaking the balance, and because you change a million things at the same time, it will be borderline impossible to find out which of those changes actually caused problems.

[lethal wren]

i mean if eugen arent incompetent i dont see how a big rework to an outdated div is gonna go wrong. They arleady reworked lots of divs during EA

[finite harbor]

This is very foolish and silly. We know how the game works, and how divisions generally work. 79th is not meta or gamebreaking, but in a decent place, and generally is seen fairly infrequently.

39ya is quite terrible comparatively to all of the MRDs in PACT; They all offer superiority in many ways, even including 1.MSD. It needs these changes to work well.

[lethal wren]

79th is uhh...quite meta i think

[jaunty cosmos]

79ya is the literal definition of meta lmao