👋 2v2 Help

[frank frost]

First

👋 2v2 Help

[buoyant orbit]

help!

[gloomy sable]

.

[rancid crystal]

When 2v2?

[rancid crystal]

Oki

[high rover]

Hi, just wondering, do we have to verify or link our risk accounts to discord in any way? This would be mine and my teammate's first time participating in an event.

[buoyant orbit]

Nope, you’ll get put in a thread with your opponent each week and you all will organize a game time that works for everyone

[high rover]

ahhh okay

thank you

[high rover]

are there any specific game rules we have to play by, or do we all just agree on those too?

[frank frost]

We give the settings for each game. and there are rules you can read here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RnRCOiiAz2lyOQPGdxj4OHZ5OgqffaJazHJBdIk6_OY/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.o3p4cr9a751

[misty thorn]

.

[true anvil]

..

[raw kernel]

Hey - do teammates get to chat in VC or not?

[buoyant orbit]

yes

[raw kernel]

Awesome and we play all 5 games is it? Every round? Best of 5 - first to 3? I don’t have a lot of those maps - it’s one of my first tournaments - do we just hope someone in the game has the map?

[buoyant orbit]

we play all 5 games is it? Every round? Best of 5 - first to 3?
Best of 5 each week, yes. If a team is down 3-0, they may choose whether they want to continue to play or forego the last two (it will not affect their score)

I don’t have a lot of those maps - it’s one of my first tournaments - do we just hope someone in the game has the map?
It's pretty common for at least one player in the group to have each map. In case nobody has one or more of them, there are alternate settings at the bottom of the settings sheet (the alternate settings just use maps in the premium pack)

[valid thunder]

Hey one of our team mates doesn't have our team role do you mind giving it to him, thx @midnight scaffold

Sorry I meant 2v2 role

Oh yeah probably a good idea to actually add him to our roster on the spreadsheet too

[finite coral]

@boreal hedge did you get sorted?

[tidal ermine]

@buoyant orbit Question about the format of the best of 5.
If both teams end up having only 1 of the round 1 maps (Africa adv zomb). do we have to play that 5x, or do we have to play that 1x and the alternative ones for the other 4 matches?

[buoyant orbit]

Thanks for asking! In that case, you’ll play the alternate ones for the other 4, so for any column you don’t have the map just sub in the alternate in the same column.

[tidal ermine]

oke makes sense thanks!

[valid thunder]

!staff pls check my thread

Bruh

[tender heron]

!staff

[finite coral]

!2v2staff

bah

[buoyant orbit]

none of the above

but I've been summoned anyways

@smoky rampart @still crypt confirming you'd be game to fill in for a 2v2 set?

(I'm going to flip a coin to see who should fill in)

[tender heron]

If absolutely necessary, I can sign up and play this round so LeBruh isn't team screwed.

[buoyant orbit]

that works for me

[tender heron]

Is there a sign-up channel?

Ok. Gl @still crypt !

[high rover]

btw before we start our first match, I wanted to ask, what happens if a player loses connection to the game and ends up being fully replaced by a bot? do we restart?

[buoyant orbit]

losing connection is considered a "client side" error, and thus it's not an automatic restart (like a bug in the game would be). generally, though, you can ask your opponents to restart and I would encourage people to do so within reason

[orchid token]

Hello Staff. Not sure what to do about Match 7 group?

Our opponents time was "everyday always" and I'm not quite sure what to do here when I had asked a few times for them to update availability on FoR?

[buoyant orbit]

For availability isn’t strictly required, it’s quite common for teams to just discuss time ranges that work rather than using the command. If it doesn’t get played, Zango and I willl review the thread and discuss what to do

[orchid token]

Thanks. As Aussie players we know our matches are hard to schedule, but still soe more communication might be nice. I also see it as 3 new players plus me so I am trying to be cruisy and helpful where I can,

[orchid token]

What decision was made. I don't see the thread anymore.

[carmine agate]

Staff.

I joined the JK-MF deciders, they had a spot for a 4th. #1419501583095300300 message

I don’t think I’ve been officially added in though as far as staff is aware, so please consider this that, if you’ll accept my addition to this team and the tourney from this message from last week.

[buoyant orbit]

See spreadsheet, your team was awarded win since you were present.

[boreal hedge]

“Quick reminder about game 1: there is a KYP (kill your partner) modifier. This means the first team to have one player die, wins (regardless of who kills them) “

The wording of this is confusing. Do you mean: the first team to have one player die loses?

[buoyant orbit]

Nope. First to die wins

[boreal hedge]

The first team, to have one player die, wins. I’m not understanding.

Does that mean we won our last game against you? @buoyant orbit Wouldn’t that mean we won all of our games then? lol can you please elaborate.

[buoyant orbit]

Specifically in games with the KYP modifier, which you’ll see in the settings

Game 1 this week, for example. We had no KYP games last week, didn’t want to introduce the modifier in week 1

[boreal hedge]

Ohhhhhhhhh. Okay so KYP modifier means first one to die wins. Got it lol thank you for clarifying.

[buoyant orbit]

Yep, you got it! No problem 🙂

It’s a really fun modifier with very interesting strategies. Hope you enjoy

[rancid crystal]

where are the settings? i have looked everywhere

[frank frost]

spreadsheet

[buoyant orbit]

See first message in thread

[quaint patrol]

was just looking at the spreadsheet and noticed that our round 2 game is listed as 5-0, but it was 3-1. Crumpets vs Yeboahs

<@&1419503157976760320>

[frank frost]

Fixed.

[quaint patrol]

i know its a minor thing but could make a difference if its pt based

[frank frost]

No for sure. Nice catch

[smoky scarab]

<@&1419503157976760320> Spreadsheet says the relentless defiance lost 5-0. That is, of course, impossible. In fact, we won 5-0. Please fix.

[finite coral]

I was just looking at the sheet and was really surprised lol

[frank frost]

Just an error im sure.

I will fix @smoky scarab

[boreal hedge]

Back to back team players only counts for the first 2? Or in any case? @buoyant orbit

[buoyant orbit]

correct, just cannot got 1st/2nd

[buoyant orbit]

^

[glass pine]

<@&1419503157976760320> anyone awake

[frank frost]

Yes

[tardy lodge]

!staff 2 questions

1. Are we not aloud to post a pic of our tourney schedule in the thread?
2. I just joined my team but proph nor I could screen share in vc for our third teammate is this normal

!staff

[frank frost]

1. you are allowed
2. you didnt have the role. now you do

[valid thunder]

Think he meant we have no image perms for 1. in our thread

[frank frost]

Oh idk ask @floral canopy

[floral canopy]

Zango

You are staff

You have access to this stuff 😂

[frank frost]

Ya but im on mobile I cant check perms lol

[floral canopy]

I am also on mobile

[frank frost]

Well

[river lodge]

<@&1419503157976760320> can I get 2v2 role?

[frank frost]

yes

[orchid token]

<@&1419503157976760320> Could someone please tell me the decision from Round 5 group 6. I was not able to see the response before the thread is now hidden.

[orchid token]

I want to make sure this is seen to in the first 24 hours as the rules document says.

Also round 4 we are listed as winning 3-1. But we offered game 5 and the other team did not want to so should that not now be 4-1 given the rules when a team concedes the set without playing it out?

[frank frost]

@orchid token I dmd you

As for the score. 3-1 or 4-1 doesnt matter. Only full sweeps affect tiebreaks

[tardy lodge]

What did it say?

[tidal ermine]

Just wondering, is there a reason the Alternate Settings don't rotate weekly?
Would personally enjoy it if there was some more mixing of the free maps too

[frank frost]

There's only so many viable free maps that work for 2v2 so were pretty limited

[orchid token]

Have sent reply.

I was already asleep Australia time so please forgive the delay in responding.

[humble jacinth]

!staff

!!staff

!!ssttaaffff

I hate it here

<@&1419503157976760320>

Oh

[buoyant orbit]

What

[humble jacinth]

Hey 🙂

[buoyant orbit]

[boreal hedge]

<@&1419503157976760320>

My teammate and I were wondering what happened to our thread

@buoyant orbit

[frank frost]

Tagged u in there

[buoyant orbit]

threads disappear when there is no activity for a few days

[boreal hedge]

Fml I assumed we were kicked from inactivity lol

[buoyant orbit]

(they're not displayed, they don't actually disappear)

[boreal hedge]

Thank you!

[river lodge]

Im listening

[valid thunder]

Is the [Hidden] tab on the spreadsheet supposed to be public 😂?

[buoyant orbit]

Ohp

Lol it’s not important either way, but no it’s not

[orchid token]

Lol. I just self reported this too to Zango.

[misty thorn]

.

[sour steppe]

Is there a break for 1 week here?

[tidal ermine]

^

[frank frost]

Will send out am announcement soon. Mot a true break. Teams will have 2 weeks to play though.

Thetes still 1 team to play today

[sour steppe]

Can we get the settings for next round earlier since the current round is 2 weeks?

[buoyant orbit]

Perhaps today or tomorrow I can update them

[finite coral]

https://tenor.com/view/thinking-batman-hmm-chin-rub-maybe-gif-544874022650473771

[tidal ermine]

Do we advance to the next round? 😄 -> Team Eaze

[humble jacinth]

You’ll be tie broken with all the other 4s

[tidal ermine]

Any way we can calculate already if we'd advance?

[humble jacinth]

Sure you gotta check head to head against all the 4s first

If you’ve beat enough then you’re good, if not then you gotta check all of their strength of schedule

[tidal ermine]

Going of the ones on 4 now, we beat 1, and lost to 1. Didn't play the others.
The team we beat, hasn't beaten any others on 4. Would that mean we continue then? Since I think there'll be 17 teams on 4 points or more.

Not going to check strength of schedule for now 😅

[valid thunder]

I dmed you what I calculated, id send it here but no image perms lol

https://imgur.com/a/YLjHQFq this works I suppose

Embed perms but not image is crazy lol

[finite coral]

looking at the sheet, if it's accurate then every team on 4 wins fits into the top 16 for playoffs

[valid thunder]

The problem is 3 teams on 3 have yet to play r8

And since 2 of them play each other, at least 1 more will be on 4

What I find truly impressive though is one match managed to end 0-0 in the earlier rounds

[turbid matrix]

<@&1419503157976760320> when does r9 start? next monday?

[frank frost]

Depends on the remaining groups

We did give 2 weeks tho

[turbid matrix]

ok thanks

[buoyant orbit]

settings posted

[finite coral]

how many more groups still need to play for round 8 to be complete?

[frank frost]

2

[tidal ermine]

Looking at the friendsofrisk calender page, there's a new 2vs2 tournament supposedly open for sign up?
Link to Discord from there doesn't work, anyone here have info on it?

[valid thunder]

Sent you the link

Just wanted to watch the 2v2 match but go off I guess @lunar scaffold 😂 I can assure you I am most definitely not a spy for your opponents, not their biggest fan

And yes, having someone not on your team talk in the VC is against the rules

[floral canopy]

@frank frost @timber oxide @smoky rampart yall able to coordinate getting a new invite link setup on FoR? This is the 3rd person who has said it doesn’t work

[timber oxide]

@wild willow

[quaint lance]

.

[smoky rampart]

I am not touching anything Brutalpipe with a 10 feet pole

[floral canopy]

somebody just needs to send you a valid invite link, and you update it on the website

[smoky rampart]

No. Dude literally threatened my life, I cant sent anyone in his direction or do anything to support his events. Sorry, hard line for me.

[floral canopy]

Oh, I didnt realize thats why there was no invite link

my bad

[smoky rampart]

That was not why, it expired just as normal. I try to let FoR be inpartial for the sake of the community. Just as I let Elitar keep using my system after his first attacks on me.

But it just gets to a point.... Dont threaten with violence and we can exist side by side even if we dont go along. But....

[heady fog]

Shouldn't these be swapped around? Because as it stands, we'd have a bunch of potential reoccurring matchups.

[orchid token]

<@&1419503157976760320> I'm not sure how the scorecard could be correct? Why are teams we defeated in playoffs when we must be a better team because we beat them? Isn't that what a head to head tiebreaker is for?

If we beat a team who played harder opponents then us does that not mean that we arguably would have done better against those higher placed opponents too?

So if we swapped schedule with them we should have done better given we were better then them.

[heady fog]

I'm not staff, but this was already brought up and let me explain what I understand:

Because not all tied teams have played each other equally, the Head to Head Tie Breaker can't be applied properly. Therefore, the Strength of Schedule Tie Breaker is used first.

[frank frost]

What silent said

[orchid token]

What! In any Swiss event with more participants than rounds played this will be the case.

This tournament ranked teams on the following:
1️⃣ Match wins
2️⃣ head to head against tied opposition
3️⃣ least no show
4️⃣ Strength of schedule

So in this order you first compare total match wins first. Then any tied on match wins are ranked by match wins against any they played. So if one of the tied parties defeats 3 of the tied parties they get ranked higher than a party who only beat one of the tied parties. Not all parties are required to play each other for this to be relevent. If one tied participant beats other tied participants they are better and beat those teams so rank higher than them.

[frank frost]

That only works if all tied teams played each other. They didnt. Therefore h2h doesnt work

This wad already explained in the chat thread

[sour steppe]

The rest of the teams you are tied with could also have a head to head tiebrakers wirh each other. If it would go in a circle what would happen?

That's why the SoS takes priority

[frank frost]

#1419500911021265056 message

[orchid token]

Wait I can't post an image.

[orchid token]

That's when the next tiebreaker is used.

[frank frost]

The h2h doesnt apply

Since its more than 2 teams

So it goes to next tiebreaker

[orchid token]

How head to head or wins vs tied oppoenents works

Identify tied players: All players with the same score are grouped together.
Compare records within the group: Only the matches between the tied players are considered.
Determine the winner: The player who won more of these specific matches is ranked higher.

When it's used
It is a secondary tie-breaking method, not the primary one.
It is a useful tool when a tournament organizer wants to give more weight to head-to-head performance between tied players.
For Swiss tournaments, other methods like Median-Buchholz are often used as the primary tiebreaker.

Example
Imagine two players, Player A and Player B, are tied in a tournament with 5 wins each. Player A beat Player B in their head-to-head match, while Player B lost to another tied player. In this scenario, Player A would be ranked higher than Player B because Player A had more wins against tied participants.

This tournament had it listed as the first tiebreaker, so why is it being ignored?

[heady fog]

I just went through the tied teams. This is their record and please correct me if I missed some: (in brackets is a team that they beat)

The Maple Croissants
Plot Armour
Team Eaze (Situ Empire)
Schnösel
Situ Empire
Aussie Battlers (Schnösel) (Team Eaze)

Based on this using H2H, you would put Aussie Battlers above Schnösel and Team Eaze. You would put Team Eaze above Situ Empire.

But would you also put Aussie Battlers above Situ Empire, even though they haven't played? And Team Eaze above Schnösel? Based on what?

It doesn't work, you see?

Therefore, the H2H Tie Breaker can't be applied. Therefore, you must not consider it first as much as it hurts you.

Organizers can be blamed for not recognizing this beforehand, but they can't be blamed for going with the wrong decision.

[frank frost]

We should have clarified the rules yes. It was our fault for assuming it was clear to everyone (clearly its not clear to 1 team)

But we cant bend the rules or change them just cause someone misinterpreted

[orchid token]

Ranking these 5 teams is this format:
1️⃣ Aussie Battlers
2️⃣ Team Eaze
3️⃣ maple
3️⃣ plot armor
3️⃣ schnosel
3️⃣ situ

All those teams ranked 3 in the head to head then move on to the next tie breaker which was no shows, then the next breaker after that.

[frank frost]

This was already explained

Please go back and read what we said

[orchid token]

Where?

[heady fog]

Btw, you also changed the order of the "most swept wins" Tie Breaker. This is quite significant. I agree that it should be where it is now, but changing rules like that midway through a tournament is absolutely not okay.

[orchid token]

I guess that's my point. They are changing the order of tie breakers.

[heady fog]

Nah, you're just trolling now. Please come back to this conversation once you have a valid point.

[orchid token]

And then claiming I'm asking them to bend the rules. I'm actually asking them to follow them!

[orchid token]

That's not trolling. When you compare head to head wins against tied opponents you only compare those. It was 2/1/0/0/0/0 so that is how they get ranked using that tiebreaker method.

[heady fog]

I actually went through the results. I explained the case. I asked you a question. You ignored that and replied with bullshit. I'll not spend my time entertaining the troll. I have been entertained plenty myself.

[orchid token]

Perhaps you missed this. This is how head to head is based.

So I do apologise for not explicitly referencing this in my answer to you.

[frank frost]

Hm did we? That im not aware and ill go back and look.

[frank frost]

Im not sure why youre posting chat gpt

Thats not relevant at all

[orchid token]

I didn't. I used google AI to streamline this article that explains common tiebreaker options:

https://kb.challonge.com/en/article/rank-and-tie-break-statistics-1p5f7y4/

[sour steppe]

Why would you go above maple and plot armor if they didnt ever get a chance to play against one of the tied teams?

You go above them because they didnt happen to play each other?

[orchid token]

Yes because that is how wins vs tied participants works.

[frank frost]

No it isnt lol

They had a MUCH harder schedukr

You guys had the easiest schedule.

[sour steppe]

Clearly not lol. Here the team that happened to play against one of the tied gets rewarded

[frank frost]

They should not be punished for getting harder matchups

Thats the whole point of Swiss

H2h only applies if 2 teams are tied.

[orchid token]

If SoS or medium bucherholz was the first tiebreaker, I'd understand. But it isn't what was listed in the tournament rules.

[sour steppe]

By that logic they get punished that they didnt draw one of the four teams lol

[orchid token]

That's just wrong. I've already provided third party evidence of how head to head is calculated against multiple tied parties.

[orchid token]

It's not about punishing anyone.

It's about following the tiebreaker in the order they were listed in the rules.

[sour steppe]

It is simple logic that head to head can't be used with multiple teams. You dom't have any head to head advantage against maple, plot armour or situ

[orchid token]

If you change the order after rhe tournament starts that isn't really fair.

[orchid token]

Yes that is true. But you measure the head to head against all tied parties.

So one team beat two of the others and another beat one of the others.

[sour steppe]

No you don't if some teams didnt have a chance to play against other tied ones

You punish them for "draw luck"

[frank frost]

Anyways. There's nothing left to argue.

[orchid token]

Who is faster?

Person A who wins a one time race against against Person B and 4/8 races against random runners

Or Person B who won 4/8 races against random runners.

[frank frost]

That is a terrible analogy lol

[orchid token]

Why, that's how head to head works right?

[sour steppe]

Also Person C won 4/8 races against randoms

[orchid token]

Sure

[sour steppe]

And Person A is faster than person C because he beat B?

Even here it is wrong lol

[orchid token]

No Person A vs Person C is unknown

[sour steppe]

Yeah so you dont use that tiebraker😂

[frank frost]

You beat runner A in a quarter final but you both advance to semis. Then there. You finish 5th in your heat and they finish 3rd in theirs. U best then earlier but that doesnt leap frog you over them

[orchid token]

I get the analogy you are going for here. Except that the rules had the tie decided when the runner was beaten. It should have only gone to the next tiebreaker if that was a dead heat.

[frank frost]

Its just a misinterpretation of the rule from your side

I clarified it in the document however we dont believe it was even needed

[orchid token]

No it's not. It's you skipping the tiebreaker and using another one first.

If it was my event I would have had SOS as the first breaker. That's not how this was set out though.

[frank frost]

Again. See the argument we had already:

#1419500911021265056 message

[frank frost]

The SoS is essentially 1st here.

Look at butt and lubeck

[sour steppe]

If only 2 teams tie with each other the head to head should be used

[frank frost]

Theyre tied

But they didnt play each other

[sour steppe]

Can't do that if it is 2nd in tiebrakers

[frank frost]

So we cant use H2H

but had they played each other.. it would have been perfect to tiebreak

Yeboahs and RTR are tied as well

And yeboah best the rascals

So regardless of SoS.. yeboahs would be ahead

[orchid token]

Why do you say it is only used when two teams tie?

[frank frost]

cause thats how H2H works lol

head to head

not

head to other heads

[orchid token]

Okay. Have you played guess who before? I'll use an analogy for that if you know the general rules.

So we have the top 11 locked in. We need to find who is 12th seed, who is 13th seed, who is 14th seed, who is 15th seed, and who is 16th seed. Is that right?

So we ask criteria against each candidate.

Who has lost a head to head? Anyone who has lost a head to head would then be eliminated from being in 12th as they failed rhe first tiebreaker.

Who has a no show

Who played the strongest opponents.

By that third question you should have only 1 of the 6 options still standing and they get 12th place.

You rinse and repeat to fill the other standings.

In this model (the one listed as the tiebreaker order) my team Is at best 12th and at worst 14th as three teams in the six lost head to heads.

And would sit at 14th because the SoS of the other teams who lost no head to heads is higher.

[heady fog]

You're right, I missed that. You make a good point.

Let me raise the following argument though:

You're arguing for a certain interpretation of the meaning in "head to head". TO is arguing for a different interpretation. TO made the rules and therefore determined their own interpretation. Your interpretation of it is unimportant in this. The crime you can accuse them of is not explaining their own interpretation properly. What your own interpretation is or if you think it's fair the way they did it is a different question.
A different question is also whether or not it is fair to proceed like this when there's ambiguity. You're personally involved and biased in this scenario, therefore don't really get to decide. You should hope those that get to do a good job at it.

[orchid token]

I agree that I'm invested. But I've just used the interpretation of the head to head of the organisers to show they still filled spots 12 to 16 out of tiebreaker order.

#1419500586914549900 message

I see @sour steppe S argument that it is not fair to ask who won a head to head when some tied teams did not play a head to head.

But it is fair to ask who lost a head to head and block them from being ranked 12th.

[heady fog]

That's wrong, you didn't use their interpretation. You used your own, which is unimportant here.

[orchid token]

They said a head to head could only compare two teams to determine which of those two is better.

So when you are trying to find 12th place. Anyone who lost a head to head can't be better than the person they lost to. Their relative placement to everyone else is still unknown but their placement to the person who beat them is determined.

When h2h is the first tiebreaker listed.

[heady fog]

Wrong. The Head to Head can't be applied by the definition above. Therefore it's irrelevant and the next Tie Breaker in line is used.

[humble jacinth]

I’m confused is proph37 a troll?

[heady fog]

They're a prophet, first of all.

[humble jacinth]

Like it’s been explained to him that obviously just because he was one of two tied teams that even had to opportunity to play 2 teams that tied doesn’t mean they should get a free top tier breaker

In Swiss h2h can’t be implemented properly

If it was round robin then it could work the way he is suggesting

[heady fog]

To answer your question: In some sense yes. Each one of us has a troll in them and we've all trolled before, whether it was intentional or not.
Trolls are important, there's a fine line between entertaining a certain unconventional thought and overstepping to where it becomes unnecessarily uncomfortable for everyone around them. It's up to the just to decide if they want to continue listening or if they've had enough.

As for prophets case, you can understand that they're emotional and want to make their case for their own survival (within the competition).

[humble jacinth]

That’s valid he just seems to be bringing up a very specific way of defining the rules that works best for him but throws out all logic

So I couldn’t tell if he was doing it to troll or not

[heady fog]

I understand, but do you need a definite answer to that?

[orchid token]

I'm actually closer to emotionally agnostic about this and trying to approach from logic.

The TO's wanted head to head to decide placement above strength of schedule.

I've shown an external tournament organisational body that shows how h2h can be used with more than two tied parties.

I understand that is not how these TO intend for h2h to work.

KeyMistake pointed out that it is not fair to place a team higher than a team who didn't have a chance to play a tied opponent.

So now I'm asking why is it not fair to place a team lower who did lose a match against a tied opponent.

Glass half full or half empty?

[heady fog]

Because it's not possible to follow through once you commit to that logic. Because you don't have enough evidence.

In response to your second to last question. ^^

[orchid token]

If three teams lost against someone equal to them. Doesn't that make them less equal?

[humble jacinth]

Not inherently no

Because they could’ve beat teams higher on the leaderboard

[heady fog]

Yes, I agree. If they all lost to the same team, you could apply a different, perhaps advanced and more complicated interpretation and say that.

But we don't even have that kind of evidence in the current case.

[orchid token]

Well the three that lost can't be in 12th righr

Because they did lose a head to head.

[humble jacinth]

If sample size was all equal then sure

But as explained a few times it’s not

[heady fog]

I don't know. No, you're kidnapping that logic now from its original case.

[orchid token]

But then toy ask who did come 12th? Anyone who had zero ko shows. The if still tied whoever had the highest SoS.... that is where you get the evidence for who finishes 12th.

[humble jacinth]

I’m confused how you aren’t seeing the inherent flaw in the way you have decided to interpret h2h

[heady fog]

You're now mixing two different Tie Breakers to bend logic to your will. That can't be good, you must see that?

[orchid token]

Head to head determines if one team is better than another. It places those teams in a higher and lower position relative only to each other.

[heady fog]

Underline that only. It'll help you once you proceed with your next thought

[orchid token]

So when we determine in the first tie breaker that some teams are relatively higher then others. We know that they are higher then only those others.

[heady fog]

That's right.

[orchid token]

So aussie battlers is higher only to ease and schosel then. But not higher than any others due to no head to head with others.

[heady fog]

Correct again.

[orchid token]

Yet we are given lower.

[heady fog]

Right, because you can't create a sufficient leaderboard between the tied teams by that logic. Therefore you can't apply it.

[orchid token]

But you can when you fill 12th first. Them 13th. Then 14th.

You only can't when you try full 12-16rh all at once.

[heady fog]

That's right, you can't. We've arrived at the solution.

You can of course lay out any rule as you wish, but that's most often in conflict with reality.

[frank frost]

interpretting the H2H rule is futile here. it only applies when 2 teams are tied

so all of your arguments are invalid

SoS is the only tiebreaker that matters

for you guys

[buoyant orbit]

Sorry we weren’t clear from the start. Hope you’ve all had a good time arguing. Next time we’ll be more perfect while volunteering our time so you can play a game

[heady fog]

I had a good time. :)
You can't be perfect and you're appreciated for your efforts.

[orchid token]

So there is the logical methodology I've presented which can create a 12-16 ranking using the listed tiebreaker order and team placent relevancy to each other when applied one position at a time.

OR you have the methodology that weas used to try resolve all placements in one pass that has now diffused the relevancy of the first tiebreaker.

So I can't speak to the intention of the TO. But from a process point of view in a tournament that is supposed to be a premium tournament (a 2v2 world champion team) it seems a little distasteful that the seeding is not being calculated in a way so that teams who won head to heads with other tied teams are now below them when the head to head was listed as the primary tiebreaker.

[buoyant orbit]

@orchid token It’s not changing. Just drop it.

[heady fog]

"SOS" is also the only thing I'll be cursing once my ship has sunk and I'm out of the competition.

[humble jacinth]

We should’ve asked for most “world champions” on a team to be top tie break

We’d have good standing

[buoyant orbit]

We could just add it now since we’re already running this thing distastefully

[humble jacinth]

Dirty distasteful dudes could be the next team name tho

[buoyant orbit]

That’s correct, thanks for pointing out

[orchid token]

What are the escalation options. I think I recall seeing a document from SMG that talked about their rules for how tournaments and competitions are to run? From memory they published it around the time of one of the Map contests?

I can't seem to find it but I'm confident it was public here somewhere in the server.

[frank frost]

you can open a ticket if you'd like to escalate it to server staff

[orchid token]

Is that #help_create_a_ticket ?

[humble jacinth]

Yea show them who’s boss prophet they are clearly against your team cuz they aren’t using your insanely flawed logic

How dare they not cater to your bad definition

Scum I tell ya

[finite coral]

I could be way off base here but maybe something to consider for next time is to use divisions. Assuming we have an even amount of teams. If we started with 36 I think it would make sense to have 4 divisions. Over 8 weeks you play everyone in your division once and everyone in your division has played each other evenly. Top 4 teams from each division make the playoffs.

[frank frost]

correct ya

[frank frost]

we did swiss

its a different format

[orchid token]

Thanks.

[humble jacinth]

That’s round robin

[frank frost]

this was FAR better considering the history of teams events on Main server

you end up with divisions where 2-3 teams drop out

(see 3v3)

[buoyant orbit]

Swiss works better given inevitable no shows and drop outs

[finite coral]

Yeah good points. I'm leaning more towards like NFL scheduling or how it works in fantasy football but that would require a much longer season and those are done with the premise that everyone sticks around and plays which, clearly we won't get here and then we have a whole new crop of people arguing about unfair the divisions are. 👍

[frank frost]

haha ya exactly

[finite coral]

I think I saw it before in other ones and remember that being the case

[frank frost]

divisions work better in a system where theres parity

[humble jacinth]

Yea this is the best way a main server teams tourney has been run so far

Swiss with a point for winning the set is the most fair when no shows and group strength aren’t gonna be equal among groups

There would have to be some sort of pot system like in champions league and knowing who to place in which pot isn’t really possible with teams always changing players and new teams popping up

[buoyant orbit]

Man I’m never running a tourney here again

[finite coral]

Yep agreed. For what it's worth after catching up on all the discussion and looking at the data, I do feel the TO's here made the right call and implemented things properly.

[buoyant orbit]

Ya our bad for not being clear initially. Anyone could’ve asked before now “how does h2h work with 6 way ties??” and then it would’ve been resolved

[humble jacinth]

It’s not really that crazy to assume someone wouldn’t use chat gpt to filter out an answer that works perfectly to benefit them tho

[buoyant orbit]

But I never once considered h2h being a multi way tiebreak option. Just the first option if only 2

[humble jacinth]

Speaking of AI abusers would go hard as a team name if prophet wants to steal it

For next season ofc since well…

[timber oxide]

It can be only if all teams have played each other which clearly they have not. ( select cases as well)

[woeful robin]

W discussion guys

[earnest spoke]

I'm not reading all that, what's the summary Oskar

[woeful robin]

@humble jacinth got it^

[timber oxide]

More or less team was eliminated due to h2h tiebreaker not being used with the multiple teams tied though it couldn’t be used as they haven’t all played each other.

Created discussion above arguing different points and ended with a ticket to server staff I believe.

[earnest spoke]

So what's his solution

I don't see any better then SoS after h2h

[floral canopy]

SOS was applied first

H2h can’t be applied when all teams didn’t play eachother

[timber oxide]

Basically you jump back and forth once a team has earned the place and go back to original tiebreakers and repeat

Which only works if everyone played each other

[floral canopy]

Does h2h even work if all teams played eachother?

😂

[timber oxide]

Yes

[earnest spoke]

Ig we needed 30 rounds swiss

[floral canopy]

What if it’s 4 teams

Team A
Team B
Team C
Team D

A beat C and D but lost to B
B lost to C and D

How do you h2h that

[earnest spoke]

We call for SOS

[timber oxide]

Your missing info

Either way if you google it you basically jump down a tiebreaker decide the 1st seed and then go back to the top of tiebreakers

[floral canopy]

Oh wait A just has more wins above💀

😂😂

This is why I let the pros handle it

[timber oxide]

Please be the one to answer that ticket 🤣

[earnest spoke]

H2h first tiebreaker then it's wins what now

[floral canopy]

I really should delete the last 5 messages 💀😂

Damn I look stupid

[timber oxide]

I look stupid all the time according to the wife. Pretty much impervious to that now

[humble jacinth]

Dude isn’t smart, used ai to debate, is still wrong

[floral canopy]

AI made RAM prices skyrocket 😡

[orchid token]

Yes this is what is normally done. But in this case instead of deciding seeds 12-16 one at a time using the normally accepted process they were decided all at once without using the full tiebreaker sequence at each seeding placement.

[timber oxide]

Yea if you actually read why I said you can’t use h2h if you haven’t all played each other. Doesn’t work. Doesn’t matter if anyone gets put into 13th,14th place etc as h2h is invalid due to the tied teams not playing

[timber oxide]

.

[sour steppe]

You can stop now. They are the TO and have already made a desicion, no point to keep making it difficult for them

[orchid token]

Yes but you reset the check of "have teams played each other" after each placement is decided. So after 12 and 13 are placed you get to a cluster of 4 teams that have relevant head to heads.

One team beat 2 of those in the cluster and didn't play the third. Going 2-0 in the cluster.

One went 1-1
And two went 0-1

[orchid token]

It's about making it better for future. We are of course accepting the final ruling and abiding by it.

That doesn't mean we should stop trying to optimise and discuss.

[smoky rampart]

I can assure you that

The 2v2 World Championship participants
The 2v2 World Championship event helpers
The 2v2 World Championship organizers
The Discord server community staff
The Discord server Head of Tournaments
The Discord server moderator team
and even SMG

have heard about this now, we all get it, the rules will be more precise on the matter next year. Thank you for pointing out weaknesses but please, please, can we let it rest now?

[orchid token]

I'm grateful for the apology here: #1419500586914549900 message

But I don't see any commitment to have more precision until your message just now.

So thanks for that commitment to make an improvement. I look forward to seeing a more robust and defined ruleset in future that can eliminate any confusion between intent and application.

Thanks also to those who put in time and efforts to make events like this possible and to those who respectfully discussed this issue.

All the best to the top 16 in the playoff bracket!

[finite coral]

<@&1419503157976760320> I feel really dumb right now but am at my wits end. Where are the playoff group threads?

[humble jacinth]

#tourney_2v2 message

The final match effects SOS so they can’t do seeding until it’s finished

[finite coral]

My bad. I saw that but could swear I saw a group thread created and assumed all the groups had finished. Alright makes sense now.

[humble jacinth]

They made threads then deleted em a few days ago because they realized the above problem

[finite coral]

So, like if Hot chicks wins (whenever they finally play) they still can't get in the playoffs but, them winning makes them "better" so it adjusts the SOS rating and possibly shifts this final spot for who does/doesn't get into the playoffs. Is that what we're dealing with?

[humble jacinth]

Nah teams in the playoffs stay the same afaik just seeding gets changed

So 16 may be 15 actually etc

[frank frost]

What tanner said ya

[buoyant orbit]

What Zango and Tanner said ya

[finite coral]

<@&1419503157976760320> any guidance on how to handle bugs that come up in these sets? asking for a friend

[frank frost]

what happened

[finite coral]

player got the turn skip bug towards the end of a game

[earnest spoke]

No times for teams when they are playing on the spreadsheet, there were in first 8 rounds? 🤔 Also you guys should add seedings to see the upsets

[frank frost]

sorry ya. frog left and work has been crazy. ill try and get the times up

[earnest spoke]

Damn, where is frog at

[frank frost]

hes just taking a little break

[woeful robin]

when is the game between rivertown rascals and schnösel?

[frank frost]

Undefined

Will likely be a FF 🙁

[woeful robin]

how long do they have to play

[frank frost]

i mean

they havent responded or put much effort

so im calling it

[orchid token]

What if another team who missed the cut would play instead?

[frank frost]

we're discussing it

[orchid token]

@tardy lodge @valid thunder

Read above just in case.

[frank frost]

just in case what

[orchid token]

In case the discussion to allow a team that missed the cut to play against Riverton rascals results in a yes instead of just a FF.

[humble jacinth]

For full clarity if a team is allowed to replace another team they would be playing in lower bracket off rip and it can only happen this round

[frank frost]

Ya you wouldnt be replacing to play the rascals lol

[orchid token]

Yeah okay but to ensure the bracket is complete ateam would fill the losers bracket spot that would have been for the lower of this match.

[frank frost]

Correct. We will see how it goes with them

[sour steppe]

Are we gonna have the scheduled times on the spreadsheet for this round?

[woeful robin]

Clash ziege vs risk ziege 19 utc

[frank frost]

Ya I just went and added them all. People dont ping staff so it's harder to know