Balance the Boss Strike

[harsh fiber]

Dear Madrona

I gotta be honest

the boss strike is seriously unbalanced right now. It’s not even about strategy at this point in BS. I know you put a lot of effort into it, but if the mechanics stay like this, people are just gonna get frustrated and stop playing. You should really tweak the balance so it actually feels fair and competitive

Not everyone has AS frags. And not everyone are nano spenders.

And Adding the Nomad DOES NOT make any difference to the results.

[swift robin]

they could lower the difficulty level of everyone by one tier. 🤷‍♂️

Difficulty spikes are every fifth level i believe (6, 11, 16, 21, 26, 31, 36, 41, 46, 51, 56).

[random jackal]

That would lead to a huge disparity between 55 and 56. While there currently is a difference between the 2 its pretty similar in that both feature elite silver wolves. 55 players fighting non elite silver wolves would be downright insane to allow

[swift robin]

same could be said about players level 50 and 51 but either way I’m sure the devs will figure it out

[analog nest]

Where are my difficulty settings!?

[swift robin]

it’s based on your account level

[analog nest]

Level shouldn't mean nothing to the difficulty.

[swift robin]

if it wasn’t adjusted for your level then lower level players wouldn’t be able to compete with higher level players

[analog nest]

And that matters why? If we could adjust the difficulty to our own liking it shouldn't matter what level anyone is. As it stands it's more beneficial to stay at lower levels as higher levels just get slapped down.

[swift robin]

there would be no competition if we could just set the difficulty to super easy. what would be the point of progressing and getting stronger and unlocking better units?

[simple silo]

Because doing lossless trivial clears would be too easy to earn boss strike points extremely fast

[swift robin]

the real issue is just balancing. back in the day there were broken promo units

[simple silo]

It scales with your level because you have stronger units available

[fresh slate]

Nothing was as broken as plasma units and those were mass trainable

[analog nest]

Lower difficulties give less rewards, higher give better rewards.

[simple silo]

Doesn't matter. Full clears give plenty of points, and doing so lossless means you can immediately do the same thing over and over for hours

[main shore]

everyone would gravitate towards lower rewards if it was spammable. exhibit A: wimps and UMGs

[simple silo]

1k points every five minutes is better than 5k points every six hours

[swift robin]

exactly, wimps and UMGs would forever be the meta

and game dies from being boring

[analog nest]

And I just want the rewards, all you sweaty tryhards can compete for the leaderboards.

[simple silo]

I don't care about the leaderboards and never have.

Getting to R10 is not going to be a problem even for your average guild

You'll get the rewards if you and your guild is actually trying

But if it's effortless for anyone, then where's the fun in that? This isn't even about the points really. Turning into grinding is not fun

[main shore]

i think the game would not be very interesting if getting the rewards just equated to mass farming trivial enemies

[simple silo]

^

You should have to actually try. That is my opinion

[main shore]

currently it's just suffering from the opposite problem where all the prep work and unit training feels pointless bc you get one shot anyways

i think there's a balance somewhere

[swift robin]

legit seeing so many players with 50+ dead mega tanks

[pastel surge]

yeah honestly no amount of throwing money at this boss strike even makes clearing it enjoyable

[simple silo]

This is the real problem. I spent hours grinding up and leveling units and it didn't matter because they all got mulched

[pastel surge]

somehow they outbalanced our wallets

[gray timber]

and now ist just a giant meat grinder..

[versed knot]

Glad they are reworking the BS

Cuz this is just how the game mode is intended to be: a meat grinder

[severe chasm]

Be nice if raptors/nomad came pre ranked…
Don’t want to buy a solution
Already spent bs nanos on more et and now don’t have any atm for nomad
Who besides relatively big spenders has steel for all the casualties and rank/rush the raptor and nomad
You can’t grind or play competitively in this strike without paying to play

Up to several turns to kill enemy air
Multiple enemy air
Chinook just killed your aa in one turn
Your run is over you lost points and units
Enemy air always behind cover/walls
Amount of 3rd row aa
Fire dot going to fry your chuckers even if they don’t get blasted

[versed knot]

While this is a harder one, I don’t think that it’s necessarily about the difficulty, more about the core systems

[cunning void]

it shouldnt be possible to have a tank which is supposed to be ya know, tanky... take 700 dmg between 2 atks in the first 2 turns of a 4 wave battle

[severe chasm]

I have 100 dead tanks so now I twiddle my thumbs until my raptor finishes in 11 hours so I can start nomad

[versed knot]

That would be pretty unlucky to take 700 damage in 2 turns

But yeah it’s a game of attrition

[cunning void]

is it really? I mean garbage trucks, rocket launcher guys, helicopter with a shotgun

[versed knot]

Yeah basically you would need those to both crit on the same one

The devastor and garbage truck

[cunning void]

but said shotgun does more dmg than a mega tank can or something

[versed knot]

10% each means 1/100 ignoring targeting

Yeah chinook is pretty insane

[cunning void]

its like fighting a power boat with land units, except 99% of the land units cant hit air

[versed knot]

Nomad does make it more reasonable, but yeah chunook will still shred

[cunning void]

yea just gotta wait around for 12 hours to finish the promo on sky raptor

to even start on nomads

[versed knot]

Yeah hopefully everyone will be caught up by day 2

I’m much more excited for the next BS

And luckily the rewards for this one aren’t that important to placing well doesn’t matter too much

[cunning void]

I do not envy the people who nanoed the 24 hour skyraptor promo and started the 48 hour one

[versed knot]

Yeah honestly before the nomad was in the game I wasn’t playing much because I assumed they would change something

So I didn’t grind/promote anything

Turns out I was right

[cunning void]

I figured they would rebalance the waves rather than just tack on a unit

[main shore]

i'm praying on that rn

if enough of us complain

[versed knot]

Nah I think this is the most they will do

[cunning void]

cause the difference between losing 8-12 hours worth of healing of units per battle, and only losing like 3-4 hours is just the number of waves

like if they literally cut 1 wave out of every battle

and kept all other things the same

it would actually be reasonably doable to clear a battle with only 1-2 units lost

rather than with 5-6

and im talking 5-6 units that youve spent hours grinding to r6 just to get blown apart like a cardboard box vs a grenade

[wintry plinth]

The only people defending this bs are mammoths who already drop bank on the game bruh

[versed knot]

I think probably 80-90% of people would say this is too difficult

[finite timber]

I definitely think there is an unbalance in the game right now. I’m not supporting making it super easy but they could scale back the health of the SW a bit. We shouldn’t be wiped out every fight.

[lyric sentinel]

I'm level 56,Im doing the boss strike And man it feels very unbalanced/hard.
I have good units from level 4 to 5 but there being destroyed by the silvers wolfs even In the world there so annoying to figh twith
when I hit level 56. It felt like
every time I level up I get worsts and harder. I'm planning to stop level up even they increased the level cap.

Also I'm playing less and less until they fix it.

[subtle minnow]

Silver wolves just do significantly more damage than is remotely reasonable for a multiple wave encounter

[severe shore]

This whole strike is a joke and it’s de-motivating players to even continue playing

[pastel surge]

turn 1 a scrapper just did over 400 dmg to my portable wall

[wind scarab]

Madrona give us balance fix and my wallet is youuurssszzz

[zealous coral]

Ngl I thought I was like "Man ya'll are some beaches"

but then

even with double SP man....

[jaunty dune]

Level 51-52 is a hell hole because you aren't level 53 [bigfoots/maulers are kinda mandatory for any elite SW formations] and you're.... dealing with level 51-55 elite SW formations.

[hazy cloud]

I was overconfident. Thought I would only lose like 1-2 tanks per fight. They’re all dead. I haven’t finished fixing stuff from this morning

[zealous coral]

Yeah same, I was like "Man R5 should be more than enough"

Bruh no it aint

[hazy cloud]

I would argue the damage is not too bad. It’s how beefy some of the units are. Especially the air unit or the armored trucks. They just take the damage while outputting

[jaunty dune]

me firing an entire R5 TK volley at a makeshift truck with 2 machineguns only to see it to survive without issue

https://tenor.com/view/huh-what-jerry-mouse-gif-14324680

[ebon quest]

Actually the nomad does make a big difference. Although they shouldn’t have had to go that route which raises some concerns…

[zealous coral]

Honestly having free assist units isn't a bad idea in the future

[jaunty dune]

there was an entire discussoin last night as to why the boss strike was the way that it is rn [aka broken]

#battle-nations-discussion message
Starts here with "Dorian doesn't exist anymore" if anyone's curious

worth checking out, andrew answered a lot of questions

but basically the config or base files for the boss strikes are pretty much hard AF to modify or even change

stupidly spaghettified so

its pretty bad

like. held together by post-it notes bad.

but yeah they've acknowledged that the current BS are broken af and promo units are the only things that can carry them [the entire point of Z2 doing.... boss strieks was to promote promo units that were highly effective]

its gonna take a while for them to revamp or fix the entire system

[vital bramble]

While Andrew's disclosure reveal why they didn't bother revamping the individual battles, there are still questions as to why they didn't take certain steps like taking faux-pre-rank further and simply not adding DOT

[jaunty dune]

yeah thats fair

If i had to guess [emphasis on guess], pre-ranking just isn't built or coded in yet and "removing DOT" is too ingrained within the boss strike code files that its nigh impossible without recreating a new BS

might be worth asking in the donotor channels tho

[vital bramble]

Faux-pre-ranking is what I call the timer speed up. My original suggestion included ramping down the resource and SP costs as well and taken to R6 because that's how far pre-rank went. I have no doubt that "removing DOT" is not too ingrained in there because they got it correct, so they must know how to parse that part of the JSON files. I may not be a game dev but I do code and I have never ran into a situation where I went "Oops I accidentally added a feature I didn't want" nor can I even imagine how that might happen

[jaunty dune]

ah

[tame otter]

I like the DoT. In the caves anyways.

I assume its for the same reason they couldn't just make the nomads temporary hero units. Hundreds of waves, wanting a fix sooner than later

[jaunty dune]

its a pretty messy situation

to say the least

[ebon quest]

Like they did the faux prerank thing for the nomad. But nothing else.

So it’s not like they couldn’t do it. They chose not to.

[tame otter]

Too low playtesters to actually get proper feedback / not wanting the player to be overpowered

I'd assume

[vital bramble]

Players can't be OP but enemies can 😆

[tame otter]

Exactly

That's why I'm fighting armored trucks that function as tanks

[ebon quest]

Ah yes. Let’s stop them from getting prize units to the max rank that’s allowed due to level caps during the strike, but they can do that afterwards.

[vital bramble]

Less tank and more ranged frag 🤣

[ebon quest]

The lack of player testing is a bit odd. Like I’m sure the YouTubers would love to do that for them

[tame otter]

I remember back in the day late game wolves gave me hell, just not a fun enemy to fight

[tame otter]

I'm pretty sure they do

[vital bramble]

I would not say any of the YouTubers have such depth of knowledge of the game, but Lung did point that out as a potential positive yesterday

[tame otter]

Yeah? Got a problem with that huh?

[versed knot]

tbh it doesnt take a mastermind to see that this would crush the average player

if the average non top-guild member has say like 30-50 heaviers

[vital bramble]

Yeah they sucked even with the early promos back then

[versed knot]

they are done in a couple hours at best

[vital bramble]

Yeah, I don't like your face 😤

[tame otter]

Just too much high damaging units

[versed knot]

yeah even a 20% damage nerf would have been fair

just on the silverwolf side

[tame otter]

I don't like the cut of your jib

[vital bramble]

I tried :/

#1464880616758579301 message

[versed knot]

yea i saw

[vital bramble]

gasp No you didn't!

[tame otter]

In general the silver wolves need to be wacked with a nerfbat.

Crazy to say but the brutal raiders are better balanced

And that's accounting for the 1 pump champ known as the Brutal Bombardier

[versed knot]

well i doubt BS reworked will be like this

[vital bramble]

Brutal Raiders are okay because the cracked ones are brawlers and bombardier, but the others are fine. All SW are cracked

[tame otter]

Grenade units do NOT need a 7 turn board murder attack

Crazy take I know.

[versed knot]

i actually like that

[tame otter]

I hate it

[versed knot]

gives each wave a timer in a way

[vital bramble]

That's what the DOT is for lol

[jaunty dune]

yeah no increase their prep time to 11 turns minimum

[versed knot]

well theres units with immunity

[tame otter]

Took too long so you were annihilated from orbit by a singular grenade

[versed knot]

or resistances

the boardwipe attack changes your targetting

and gives that unit a purpose

other than being basically a free turn

[tame otter]

Cruel bus can stuff it too

[vital bramble]

I don't like it when games punish defensive play. Slow clears already do that and there is no need to add additional urgency on top

[versed knot]

but they are only punishing you if you dont take it out

and its not a super strong unit

[vital bramble]

I am more so referring to the DOT tbh although the grenadier does follow that somewhat since it is another unit you have to prioritize for a stupid reason

[versed knot]

ah i see

yeah i like the grenadier much more than the DOT

[tame otter]

Biggest changer is the fact Silver Wolves gimmick is shooting multiple times but it's like -70 a hit, x3 times

Also our Silver Wolves aren't even on par and that's infuriating.

At R6 Raiders mirror their Brutal counterparts.

Silver Wolves? At R6 they're left in the dust compared to their superior counterparts

They also are removed, or lack attacks entirely

[versed knot]

because there isnt much you can do about the DOT without making the unit meta even more restricting

[tame otter]

I had a damn scrapper smack my Nomad and he almost killed it, dps is just absurd

[versed knot]

we had a guy make 450 PKs in our guild

and hes definitely reaping the rewards

[gray timber]

I am doing this next time

[worthy fossil]

The problem is that when Z2 made these boss strikes, they balanced it around op units. Madrona doesn’t want to make op units the only meta and wants to nerf them, which is fine, but the problem is that the content is balanced around that unit and not balanced around the base game. If they want to nerf the units, nerf the boss strikes that need them to make them more completable without the unit. Right now, it’s just the difficulty without the answer for it

[placid idol]

Ok! I have a suggestion. The silver wolves are OP, and it is hard to change, okay, i get it
So, if you cant nerf them, then buff us, players. Make us OP as well 😎😎😎
More units for help from original game, some buffs for our attacks, etc
Does anyone agree ? 👍

[subtle minnow]

That is sort of what they did by giving us the nomad

[vapid sinew]

Unranked, during the strike, after most people consumed resources.

[placid idol]

Sadly it’s not equal in the balance

We dont have to time to rank em up fast

[jaunty dune]

give the scout bike 10000000 armor and 250 dodge

[placid idol]

A few more suggestions:

1. Reduce time/price for healings and repairing during BS
2. Reduce unit production cost during BS
3. Increase amount of time you can help your friends during BS, from 50 to 1000 in general, from 5 to 25 per person’s base
4. Increase the amount of BS points earned, if possible
5. Decrease the amount of BS points needed to gain tiers, if possible
6. Decrease the number of waves in fights if possible to minimize the unit losses
7. Add special buffs during BS, for example increased critical hit chance for some attacks, chemicals e g
8. Give us few more days to participate in BS

Absit invidia verbo. 😶‍🌫️🥶

[torn oak]

This. It should be based on unit ranks. Someone with level 1 megas fighting lvl 60 SWs while someone with r5 megas gets lvl 50 isn’t parity. Not every rank 56 account is equal

[last blade]

Adding nomad definitely changes outcomes

I agree with the general sentiment, and people needed this extra anti air while providing other uses

Overall alot of the asks seem to be for features or functions they most likely do not have implemented, but they definitely messed up by not allowing for pre ranked boss drops for this one

This would have fixed some issues

[gray timber]

difficulty toggle so you can fight easier enemy that gives less BP could be good.

so player can choose how hard they want

[midnight plaza]

I find the BS easy af. Only lost like 100 tanks and 200 wimps in 2 days🤣🤣💀

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[last blade]

That would require the devs to add that many more waves,

And variations

I would imagine it'll be a consideration after this one

[analog nest]

Bloody what I said! We need this

[shy mountain]

MM and the BN server needs to start cracking down on the attitudes of some of these players.

This is getting annoying.

[last blade]

If they have no bread, let them eat cake

Also

I love the "this you?" come backs

[frozen vector]

mm mfs crafting the most indefensible message possible

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-chemistry-experiment-scientific-walter-white-gif-17820266

[last blade]

Its not an MM thing

I also say some weird sht, its a have lots of things thing

[severe shore]

Nah, I agree, they’re making this community toxic

[gray timber]

Can be same wave and formation, just easier and less BP

[glad copper]

It really comes down to whether you’re prepared, but even in a higher tier guild you have issues, so I can understand why people are annoyed.

I do, however, believe now that this BS isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be. Yes, it’s definitely harder than it should be, but Boss Strikes are meant to be a “lose a metric ton of units” type of event.

That being said, I’m very glad to hear this is not the route they’ll be going for future Boss Strikes and hope the next one isn’t such a massacre.

[last blade]

Wdy- ohhh like a lower level bracket?

That... would be an easy fix

Because its already existing,

That is way easier and the formations already exist

[gray timber]

so I think this would be a relatively simple fix for the dev. unless there is code problem that I dont know

[last blade]

That would be so simple

I need the devs to see this

Because that would be fair,

They just need to adjust the points so people dont abuse it

Like if its 50% but I lose nothing and I do it like twice as fast, thats broken

The point gain needs to be like.... 25% or something like that to be fair

[gray timber]

they just need to not hit as hard

[last blade]

Then thats hard to make happen

Because if u dont 1 for 1 adapt an existing formation

You need to make it from scratch,

[gray timber]

hmm idk then need to ask Alex

i have no idea how things works

i am just a fish

[last blade]

Ive dabbled in programming languages

Simply, changing 1 stat of every unit, is both a nightmare to balance, and a hassle for dev time

I mean obviously its not nearly as bad as some of the suggestions here,

But still annoying

[gray timber]

true

[last blade]

Adding 1 stat means needing to slot in an inbetween tier, copy and paste all stats but one,

Maybe make a new project with classes to allow for the creation of new unit levels since Madrona is building everything from scratch

[subtle minnow]

Just completely remove the alpha truck from the game files

Like delete it

Don’t need to balance it if it isn’t there

[solemn timber]

Petition to remove every unit from the game. Pure base builder

[upper anvil]

Alpha trucks suck to deal with but as it stands rn even if you removed them you'd be dealing with 70-80% of the Frontline crunch most folks are dealing with rn imo

(And even more if you are currently game planning around neutralizing those things)

[safe hound]

ngl I just do this one encounter at 56 that has no alpha truck

it's very doable to go lossless without those things there

alpha trucks are super overtuned

[jaunty dune]

1/2 all elite SW piercing damage and we're good

[charred kernel]

What units are you running?

[safe hound]

maulers and nomads

[charred kernel]

Frontline?

[safe hound]

maulers

you just do this one over and over again there's not much that can really hurt them, it's rare for me to lose anything

[charred kernel]

Hmm

Wimps have been good just to eat attacks

By the time they die you can ignore a lot of alphas and howlers

[safe hound]

I was losing 1+ tanks every time till I realized most of the damage from this particular formation was mostly explosive

I only really have to worry about killing those catapults on wave 3 asap

[charred kernel]

True

I would give pks or wimps a try

Since it don't matter if they die

[safe hound]

maulers dont die I dont need to swap anything out

[charred kernel]

Tanks die anyway

Ahh for that battle yea, meant if you wanted to do other battles

For less resets

[safe hound]

nah, I have it down to a T now, bullet hoses are scary

[charred kernel]

Fr

[safe hound]

I'd rather just avoid them

[charred kernel]

Yea that's fair enough

[safe hound]

lowkey the strikes kinda boring ngl, I have almost a million point but my motivation is dead rn

[charred kernel]

Nomads been fun

lol

[safe hound]

yeah they were a nice addition I enjoy using them

[tame otter]

Game refuses to spawn this half the time annoyingly.

[obtuse geyser]

i reckon standard boss strike waves should be around this diff overall.
its doable as a grind, stillnot a free win with optimal comps. if the shield or catapult fire attack decides your maulers are dying today you are still in danger of losses. repair eco is incentivised because you can play fast and loose with your units for more score/min but its still playable for average players.

pre nomad i was fighting this and losing like a pelican or 2 + chucker each time. which was rough but barely playable on f2p eco. if skyraptors were preranked honestly it wouldve probably been enough to play the strike.

[safe hound]

I lose maybe one every few dozen encounters it's a non issue

shield guys tickle their massive health pool and half their shots are grey hits

and it's rare for the catapults to hit them with something that matters i.e. the fire attack

[obtuse geyser]

im at 1m points as well, same experience

im saying i think thats an alright diff

[safe hound]

idk you said it wasnt a free win

seemed pretty free to me

[obtuse geyser]

we have a slightly different definition of free. but whatever. semantics are semantics.

if youve also grinded a mil points on this youve definitely either retreated or lost probably 5+ maulers fighting it

[safe hound]

They gave me a ton of free teeth I just took the losses on the chin

got me million

so me done, grinding the strike is boring

[swift robin]

good sp tho

[safe hound]

no steel

bottlenecked

[knotty compass]

less than that for most players

[versed knot]

Maybe so

[obtuse geyser]

honestly f2ps should not be advised to build more than 10 heaviers

this strike has confirmed to me they are basically useless to mass

youd actually be better off coming in with like 4x as many pelicans

or hell 2x peacekeepers

[jaunty dune]

minitankkkksss

[ebon quest]

What is this propaganda 😂

Heaviers are great. Got almost 100 of them.

[obtuse geyser]

its not propaganda, its the truth
https://youtu.be/FayXMU5DvgQ

[ebon quest]

For this strike sure. But for most strikes they’re gonna be your go to

[obtuse geyser]

doubtful. if not this strike, against silver wolves and their piercing damage, then when?

if rebels are higher on explosive, im gonna run maulers again

and pelicans already performed great in BS1

i literally cant see heaviers getting better. especially with the eco considerations, you pump 4-5 times the pelicans

[ebon quest]

Oh no, if not for the strike where they take dot damage every turn then when.

[obtuse geyser]

believe what you want. ill enjoy not having 50+ in my repair bays like all of you did at the start of this 👍

[stable shoal]

heaviers do well against raiders
you lose them every now and then but that's why you have 100 of them

the raiders have a lot of explosives but not many good direct fire explosives

[obtuse geyser]

yeah, no need to mass them. im not saying they are useless and you build 0. im saying you treat them the same way most people are treating maulers here. if you have to burn them like firewood, youre screwed. if you are using them, they should be dying at a low rate where your repair can basically keep up.

i suppose by the time we get the next boss strike all this is invalid by reworks, plasma and promos anyway

[stable shoal]

the DoT is the problem
it looks insignificant but it adds up
and when you're taking 20+ turns to clear 10 damage a turn is equal to them having 200+ HP less
having crazy numbers just helps you go for big points because you can keep fighting for longer

[ebon quest]

What else are you really mass producing anyways

[obtuse geyser]

... pelicans

[ebon quest]

Which are becoming obsolete

[obtuse geyser]

do you play f2p?

[ebon quest]

Yes

[obtuse geyser]

how are your repair bays fairing?

[ebon quest]

The pelican has been outclass AA from units we got this strike, and it’s bomb attack is unreliable

[ebon quest]

Doing great. I lose 2-3 wimps each clear

[obtuse geyser]

are you forgetting that one is a mass producible unit? why dont you compare heavier tanks to sentinel frags? did you forget the point of mass producing stuff is to function when you are taking losses?

[obtuse geyser]

yeah how was your heavier frontline going before nomads?

im sure as well as everyone else's

[tropic pulsar]

pelicans are still expensive though they cost like 7 gears no?

[ebon quest]

They both cost a lot of gears to make, heavier will be relevant much longer than pelican

[obtuse geyser]

gears are free with new haven at 56. but even compared to heaviers 3 widgets pre new haven, you can make 2 pelicans.

[ebon quest]

Surely you jest. As I mentioned above this is a bad strike for heaviers frontline

[obtuse geyser]

spend the other steel pumping peacekeepers or smth

[tropic pulsar]

honestly my pelican are rank1 and my heavier tank are doing great so i'll stay with heavier xD

[ebon quest]

That something is heaviers

[ebon quest]

Sounds like you got a grudge against heaviers. I’m telling ya, you’re missing out.

[ebon quest]

They’re both mass produceable btw

[unique vapor]

Pelicans have been doing well and are only going to get better

[obtuse geyser]

tell me where you mass produce the skyraptor, the better anti air we got from this boss strike than the pelican?

[unique vapor]

Maulers make tanks feel obsolete with Pelicans. Tanky backlines in general do tbh

[ebon quest]

This is about heavier tanks and pelicans

[obtuse geyser]

illiterate

[unique vapor]

Pelicans cost half as many t3s, less steel, less oil to produce and cost no t3s, and very little steel and oil to heal, also like 30min less to heal.

All of which is huge when they live about as long if not longer, keep in mind Pelicans get better than already are, a couple times even, Heaviers don’t

[obtuse geyser]

85 defense r9

actually crazy

[ebon quest]

And your gonna be putting pelicans on the frontline to stop the enemy’s fire?

[tropic pulsar]

i wish there was a better endgame tank for F2P though

close to mega tank

[unique vapor]

You don’t need to with maulers/Nomad

But they do that anyway with contact attacks and short range attacks

[obtuse geyser]

some day you will graduate from pickleliam's tank front dps back formation academy and learn indirect fire exists

[unique vapor]

Also a lot of AA attacks are bad

[ebon quest]

Love how everyone is talking about this strike. When I’m not.

[unique vapor]

I’m not just talking about this strike

[obtuse geyser]

exactly you understand. bs1 they did so well too for that reason.

[unique vapor]

I used Pelican frontline BS1 as well

I’ve used Pelican frontline against rebel encounters as well

[ebon quest]

Now you’re just rage baiting instead of coming up with a response.

[unique vapor]

Tanks being direct is a buff to Pelicans because Maulers resist explosive so it doesn’t matter if they get hit with tank fire

People thought Pelicans would be bad this strike, turns out they were wrong

Rebels will likely be a repeat

[obtuse geyser]

the biggest worry for pelicans is dedicated enemy aa like skyraptor but even then its much more economical to take the losses if you are forced to

than a forced tank loss

pelicans + pwall carried me in bs1

https://battlenations.miraheze.org/wiki/(Legacy)_Boss_Strike_18:_Sergeant_Ludlow's_Revenge/Level_56-60_battles#tabber-Wave_1_4
Even that first rebel battle, i sure as hell would prefer pelicans in front maulers in back to any kind of tank frontline 🤣

[unique vapor]

Rebels are going to annihilate tanks with AP

And boars

[tropic pulsar]

rebels were always the anti tank faction, the amount of explosive damage they have is absurd

and if it not explosive its chemical or fire which is not better lol

with that in mind they should maybe buff tanks

[shy mountain]

They’re basically us

So it’s not surprising

[lilac cargo]

I’m sure it’s been talked about in here but how are people still complaining about the nomad? It’s incredibly good and I went from not being able to finish a fight to beating it everytime because of the nomad. It’s really a skill issue at this point if you can’t make it work…..

[tropic pulsar]

You need money to buy nomads

[jaunty dune]

*additional nomads

[ebon quest]

3 nomads is really all you need. Which means buying one

[subtle minnow]

35-46 you don’t really have a frontline which can survive or the steel to consistently heal and replace, 47-52 you don’t have a big damage dealer and many don’t have the steel or hvyr numbers to maintain a frontline

For 53-56 sure

[unique vapor]

36+ has Peacekeeper, which is a better frontline than most tanks this strike

[subtle minnow]

It’s ok but it dies

You have no access to a lossless or loss light formation

[unique vapor]

even at 56, mine usually only dies because its r4

I just use wimps as bait to fill in the rest of the frontline

[subtle minnow]

At 56 you have maulers and also the steel and time to have ranked up PKs to max and the steel to heal

You have to appreciate that lower tier players don’t have this and have in many cases not sat at their level for any length of time building things up

[versed knot]

yeah PKs are honestly much better than tanks before 56 becaue you can produce infinite amounts of them without having to worry about gears

and if you stick to snow you can go lossless (excluding pks) with maulers + nomad

[unique vapor]

Peacekeepers have been recommended for a while, and you will have had the tiome to rank them up and get the steel

r4 is not expensive, and 36 is facing much less difficult fights

players also have the 2 free nomads for dps

[subtle minnow]

Steel and time, someone who was sitting at 56 has had lots of both

Nobody else does

[unique vapor]

I had both when I was 40

[versed knot]

well BS is more about preperation than anything

[unique vapor]

I just spent the time on other stuff

[subtle minnow]

Then you were either slow or had advanced nano buildings

[stable shoal]

BS was supposed to be "endgame content" so it makes sense that a newer or lower level account would have issues

[unique vapor]

I was slow for a whale, but fast for a f2p

[subtle minnow]

I had 20PKs, not been a single day this year so far where I have had excess steel for anything

[unique vapor]

I just spent a lot of time farming units

[subtle minnow]

Upgrading units, upgrading production and healing buildings, upgrading resource buildings, making units

[unique vapor]

farming SP doesn't give xp

[versed knot]

yeah sounds like its just gonna take you a bit longer to catch up to the content

[stable shoal]

also the balance is currently very heavily p2w

[unique vapor]

it 100% is

[lilac cargo]

If you don’t have supers I guess so, r4 supers have been working just fine for me at those levels

[subtle minnow]

The steel for this doesn’t exist, players who were sitting at the top level for weeks and then at 49 for weeks have a time cushion

[subtle minnow]

Cost nanos

[lilac cargo]

Oh we talking no nanos, then yeah you right

[versed knot]

im confused, is the complaint that people that had more time to prepare were more prepared?

is it more about the balance of whales vs F2P?

cuz really time is just the biggest factor in my opinion

[unique vapor]

but even then

Peacekeepers have been recommended for a long time

and you really don't have much better to spend the nanos on at those levels as far as frontlines go

also they are cheaper steel wise than tanks

[versed knot]

dinnee is less than F2P (he spends 0 nanos on anything not even free nanos) and i think hes number 3 in the world

[lilac cargo]

I mean wouldn’t it be dumb if you paid money and you didn’t get an advantage? Isn’t that every freemium games whole point?

[stable shoal]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQSn1Krwu5fDOtmC4wcbyS1brc7NCJJpqljSB0zlQFYHjs62JFh0CbFy-LqJcao3xt-iqCze17HFHRm/pubhtml#gid=203930562
this might help

[unique vapor]

the complaint seems to be that level 36 can't farm or rank up Peace Keeper if free to play

[versed knot]

oh i see

ranking up PK sucks

regardless

maybe if u had a ranged frag it would be easier but i hate that unit

[subtle minnow]

The complaint is that nomads didn’t genuinely help players without access to a huge number of frontline units and the means to heal them. The counter argument was use PKs, the counter to that is that’s well and good but they do not survive and most players below max level don’t have a huge number, time or steel to have made and ranked a huge number, or a huge amount of steel to heal them.

So it just becomes wimps and some decoration nomads

[stable shoal]

again that is absolutely working as intended

BS was intended as endgame content in the original

there's a reason they're taking a break from running them to rework it

[versed knot]

yeah i think that makes sense but it does kinda just come down to this; if you prepared and had many frontline units you did well and if you either didnt have enough time to prepare (started the game later) or were lazy then you dont do well

[unique vapor]

it is 100% bad as end game content, I'm not going to argue that

but that was the intent

[versed knot]

i personally think BS is a bad gamemode, but yeah thats kinda what they wanted to happen

luckily the next BS will be reworked, and hopefully be more accessible to players who havent prepped for months in advance

because its a pretty stupid ideology

[unique vapor]

actually feels better to rank than Heavier IMO, Heavier just feels so bad to use

[versed knot]

if your trying to grow ur player base

yeah i'm getting close to R6 on heaviers, but i've been moving during this BS so I wasn't able to play much

ill probably stop at 1mil points

[lilac cargo]

Most tanks to r6 is really making the wimp not seem so bad 😭

[unique vapor]

I did not make much progress on HEavier this BS

[versed knot]

i do think the nomad was a huge boon to everyone, but you can't take advantage of that if you weren't prepped in the first place

wimps do work as frontline units in lower levels tho

like i couldn't imagine wimps + nomads not wiping the floor with stuff thats pre-51

cuz theres no elite units

[lilac cargo]

I meant the SP needed my b

[stable shoal]

at least R6ing tanks just happens naturally when you clear encounters
R6ing wimps requires you to spend time leveling a useless unit until you unlock the attacks

[lilac cargo]

Good point

[subtle minnow]

I would say that players below max level, outright haven’t had the time or resources to mass frontline units, therefore as I said, very useful for max level players, very not useful for the rest of the playerbase. Intent and game design aside that was the point I was making about this strike.

[stable shoal]

there's a few mixed in and they're absolutely unfair when they show up

like lv20 running into the elite sniper

[lilac cargo]

When do SW air units start appearing?

[unique vapor]

non-max level players actually did better this strike than some max level and 55ers in my guild

[lilac cargo]

Like for bs what level you gotta be to see them?

[stable shoal]

yes

[subtle minnow]

In lower brackets,I know 56 suffered initially. But 46-51 is just absolute hell

Apparently 21-26 was ok for some

[stable shoal]

11 and up sees air

[unique vapor]

it has less to do with level and more to do with prep and dedication

how willing they were to lose lots of stuff more or less

[subtle minnow]

I mean not really

Everyone serious is willing to lose everything

[unique vapor]

The point is: people who are willing and know how, will invest and perform regardless of level, if that means working on ranking up and training peace keepers when you get them, that’s what that means, and they’ll do it.

[swift robin]

they do work at 56 too

[versed knot]

I haven’t found a ton of success in comparison to PKs

Generally my PKs will live to 3-4 where wimps make it to 2-3

They do lower tank losses tho

[unique vapor]

living to 2-3 was enough with r6 maulers, couple that with another, tankier unit like Peace eeper and it did a great job at almost completely preventing back-line losses

[obtuse geyser]

no hes not. hes nowhere near there. that account was d 1 nnee. dinnee was burning heaviers with jack all points (for a top guild) to show for it, self admitted on atlas' stream.

idk why people keep trying to make dinnee out as more than he is. hes solid sure but i dont think hes even near one of the strongest f2p performers. i heard rggcd was f2p, idk for sure. hed be the strongest, most consistent f2p that you can point to.

[obtuse geyser]

i can almost guarantee you dinnee was not running a low loss comp that makes f2p grinding viable like this pre nomad

[versed knot]

You can 100% run lossless with f20

F2P

Really easily

Frags and Nomads + maulers in cold

You will be lossless or very low losses most of the time

If you pick the right formation (especially with a ranged frag)

[obtuse geyser]

did you not even watch that video?

[versed knot]

Obviously a chinook crit would stink

[obtuse geyser]

you can do it way cheaper than that

[versed knot]

So what is your argument

[obtuse geyser]

which is an indictment on dinnee being glazed to high heavens while hes burning heaviers to do it this was not the point

[versed knot]

The top player can’t be F2P?

[obtuse geyser]

no that specifically dinnee is getting overglazed neither was this. it was really that paying players who dont know what they are talking about should stop using dinnee as an example because they dont know what they are talking about. i got caught up on the wrong crap.

[upper anvil]

f2p doesnt mean you cant have 500 heaviers to burn lol

[obtuse geyser]

like hop off his dick lmao

[versed knot]

Wtf are you talking about

I was using him as a reference point

[obtuse geyser]

like i said youre literally wrong that account was not him

why are you using a false reference point

at least use a real one like rggcd if he is f2p

[tame otter]

holyshit we're arguing about player preformance, why

[versed knot]

So was that top player not Dinnee?

[tame otter]

[obtuse geyser]

do you not read? do any of you read?

[versed knot]

Just checking rq

Wanna get a yes or no from you

[obtuse geyser]

that account was d 1 nee

[versed knot]

People can change their names

LOL

[obtuse geyser]

this server is full of illiterate people

holy crap

[versed knot]

Im just wanting to get a straight answer if that player that was in the top 3 was not dinnee according to you

That’s all

[upper anvil]

this discourse is genuinely maddening

[tame otter]

Yessir I take the game ultra seriously, it's esports to me

Mobile game from 2011

[obtuse geyser]

yes. i guarantee you they were separate accounts. now that THE has kicked everyone i cant point you at the guild list to confirm.

the real annoying as crap thing is people who arent f2p should damn well stop talking about it. the irony is i dont even dislike dinnee. but you guys hold him up as like a fucken idol and use him to defend the most egregious opinions about f2p/casual play.

that you dont know a thing about

[tame otter]

I've never seen anyone do that once, and if Milky just did it, Milky is not everyone.

[vital bramble]

D1nnee is Boo

[obtuse geyser]

oh wow its almost like i actually know what im talking about with regards to f2p performance

that said i did get caught up on the wrong crap

it wasnt about dinnee, it was about paying players talking about f2p experience when they obviously dont know anything about it.

[tame otter]

Milky made one comment.

And you have spiraled.

[obtuse geyser]

you know how prevalent the sentiment is in this community that you have infinite mass producible units?

tell that to dinnee himself who they all like to point to as the f2p god

[tame otter]

Buddy, Milky made, one comment, mentioning Dinnee.

[stable shoal]

you only get that after sitting at the level cap for awhile

[tame otter]

That was it.

[obtuse geyser]

dinnee has been sitting at the level cap and invested in the game much longer than i have. like i tell you, ask him yourself how his heavier stocks fared. if he, your f2p idol turns out is as steel crunched as everyone else, maybe you all should stop talking about that like its true?

[stable shoal]

oh I know exactly what happened
f2p is not in a good place and I'm not arguing that

[obtuse geyser]

its true, i forgot the actual point i wanted to make. i remembered it was related to dinnee and got caught up on the wrong thing. but now ive remembered what it was.

[tame otter]

It just seems to be hounding people over the mention of Dinnee. I don't think Dinnee matters, they are their own person, not the wider community.

[obtuse geyser]

yes my problem is not with dinnee at all. it is with all the people talking about the f2p experience who do not actually understand it. it is about the people who use 'but dinnee' as a point when all it confirms is they dont actually know whats going on.

and my frustration is with the community sentiment that says you should have infinite heavier tanks/mass producible units when no f2p actually does. not even the top ones afaik.

[stable shoal]

I know exactly what f2p is like
and there's a lot of things that should be done to make things better

[obtuse geyser]

I would be confident to say every f2p who succeeds at the top level does not burn a unit a wave

[stable shoal]

#1 is uncap hospitals/repair bays

if F2P could stack up 4 of those it would be huge

there's no need to make the free hospital so much worse and capped to 1 on top of that

[obtuse geyser]

people are advocating the wrong approach to f2ps/casuals, the blind leading the blind

with no understanding of their resource constraints

[stable shoal]

but "unlimited" heavier tanks is possible even then
I would know I did it in the OG
it does take far too long to reach though

[unique vapor]

There are a lot of issues with free to play, everyone has different ideas of what exactly they are because of the sheer volume of issues, but saying it’s because of Dinee is wild.

[obtuse geyser]

no im not saying its because of dinnee. im saying people should not use 'but dinnee' as an example of f2ps performing well.

i think he actually understands all this better than most of the people who use him as an argument

and realistically. he is not performing well this strike. which makes the use of 'but dinnee' even stupider

[unique vapor]

Probably, but AFAIK, the people who use him as an argument often don’t seem to actually care about free to play at all or even claim to

[twilit kiln]

Bro got a player misidentified and you demolished his entire dignity, his extended family, and the will of anyone to engage with you in a level discussion

I mean I know this is BN discord where everyone goes for the throat for every small thing but come tf on

You DO NOT have to be that mean

Its like you served tea to a customer wrong and they dumped the boiling pot of tea back on you, screamed at you and the manager and sued you for damages

[lament river]

Level 45 i was only losing my umgs and chuckers mostly in my battles with 2 supers, 2 nomads, 3 umgs, 4 chuckers. And i am F2P

[unique vapor]

tbh all they did was make themselves seem like someone not worth discussing anything at all with ever. Like if they grossly overreact this much over what seemed to be their own mis-attribution...

[twilit kiln]

yeah just makes me gross out at the overreaction, must be a very pleasant man

[obtuse geyser]

youre not wrong, i save the small pleasantness i have for people i care about 🤣

but i am damn well right. if people dont want to listen, fair is fair. their loss.

[unique vapor]

re-reading the argument

It doesn't even seem like you were arguing against Milky, you were just arguing with some random person who 100% exists in this discord but wasn't here at the moment

[obtuse geyser]

nah i was definitely arguing against them

they are a classic top guild paying player going on the mass production argument and applying it to f2ps. thats what their 'preparation' for boss strike is.

when 99% of the success is finding a good formation, not mass producing

[unique vapor]

it's both...

[obtuse geyser]

wrong approach i was referencing here

the justification they used for that is 'but dinnee'. then i pointed out dinnee is not top 3 so 'but dinnee' is stupid. and the real dinnee did use that mass production attrition approach, is one of the better measures of f2p viability for it (longstanding account on f2p eco), and did not have much success to show for it due to his suboptimal formation.

the parts where im talking about him burning heaviers

[versed knot]

What’s happening I went out to dinner

[unique vapor]

Mass production is a part of succeeding in boss strike in general

Many free to play players in my guild found good formations... but because they didn't have enough units or repair ability, they struggled and had to wait on repairs, a lot.

You needed both in fairly equal parts for this strike.

As far as the argument seemed to have gone: What you mainly did was attribute ignorance to malice, which made it seem like you were arguing against someone else... because it was all caused by a misunderstanding.

You completely refused to see the other side of the argument was caused by having bad information, that someone else had to clear up, while you were busy yelling at clouds.

You can't do half of what boss strike asks for and expect to do well, ignoring BS 1

[versed knot]

This is a pretty wild thought

Though I see what your saying if you can develop something 100% lossless

But generally you just trade losses for speed and F2P have less to lose

I read through some of your messages and it seems like you think everyone else is incapable of understanding what it’s like to be F2P

When in reality your just turning yourself into a pariah lmao

[haughty zinc]

Maybe including the multiplayer unit value calculation to decide your BS score from your army value vs. the level bracket, but yeah higher lvl players probably shouldnt just be encouraged to lower the difficulty and benefit in a way lower lvl players couldn't

[versed knot]

And as for the “but Dinnee” argument, I think it’s just a side of F2P that is more preparation than strategy

As like you said, he was probably taking more losses, but in turn was gaining points faster

As he was like top 5 player on day 1

But prolly lost too many heaviers to keep up the points by the later days (though this coulda been supplemented by peacekeepers, and probably was)

[obtuse geyser]

thats hilarious. you have all the pieces and you keep proving my point by putting them together the wrong way.

[obtuse geyser]

dinnee's strategy would have succeeded if he was... not an f2p player, limited by f2p player resource constraints!

like why would i care what his day 1 points might be if they mean down the line hes spamming wimps for 300-500 a fight? 😂

[obtuse geyser]

yeah. you really keep proving this

[unique vapor]

I like how my point of lacking mass production being an active detriment got completely ignored

[last blade]

Oh its a broken mess of a value that the devs decided to drop in the upcoming pvp update

[haughty zinc]

Oh
So much for my unit value obsession lol

[obtuse geyser]

ill get to that. one thing comes at a time. ill say i did leave a 1% for the success 😂

i think i entered this strike with uhhh 15 pelicans 10 chuckers?

and i mean you can see the strat i was running in the end pre nomad

still got a mil in a day

[unique vapor]

how many wimps

[obtuse geyser]

so yeah i stand by its 99%

[unique vapor]

how many wimps

and how many Maulers

[obtuse geyser]

i built 500 during the strike and used 500. i do have a reserve roster of 2.5k. maulers was like 10-12 over that time?

i turned on 8 barracks and built them between runs

[unique vapor]

so in other words

you mass produced units just not as much as others, got it

[obtuse geyser]

yes i credit them for 1% of my success?

[unique vapor]

1% seems like the understatement of the year

[obtuse geyser]

i didnt say they were useless. i never did.

ok understatement. fair enough. 10%

90% is the formation

seriously, most of it is the formation

what formation were your guys running?

[unique vapor]

if you had 2 wimps, 4 Maulers, 3 Pelicans, and 1 Chucker

how would your runs have gone

how well would you have done

[obtuse geyser]

not great. but i could actually play by producing them in strike. i got up to 25 pelicans 25 chuckers.

[last blade]

I do like the system, but think about it, the devs are rebalancing units in the future

[obtuse geyser]

same as i did the wimps

[last blade]

They would have to rebalance the values every time they balance something

[obtuse geyser]

like seriously the amount of prep i needed was not that much because i found the right formation

[last blade]

That system died the moment it switched companies lol

[obtuse geyser]

i had 47 heaviers and i burnt like 15 while lookng for strats and didnt touch them after

[last blade]

Smart man

[obtuse geyser]

i seriously stand by what i say. i see no reason not to. if you have the right strat, the prep you need is miniscule compared to the emphasis placed on it by the community.

[unique vapor]

I also abandoned Heaviers and just tanks in general fairly early on

because it seems to me like mass production did a good chunk of the work

and you aren't crediting it

[last blade]

I kept using 1 heavier no matter my tank composition

Good SP

[unique vapor]

because you don't consider mass production mass production if it's done then and there

[haughty zinc]

My strategy in question:

https://tenor.com/view/charge-soviet-urah-wave-enemy-at-the-gates-gif-7527805475201165031

[last blade]

Got me 2.4-2.8k SP every run

That's not nothing

Got 4 bars by doing 1 mil points

[unique vapor]

I used Pelican frontline most the strike

then switched to Heavier after Peace Keepers and Peacemongers were ready to promote

[obtuse geyser]

@unique vapor

i am legit curious what formations people like rggcd and heudhe were running as well

i dont think most people actually saw f2p formations shared anywhere like the one in my video

the only f2p formations people saw were if they had a locked in f2p player in their guild. which is a small number.

post nomad ofc the strike got much easier. im talking prenomad.

[haughty zinc]

My guild benefited greatly from one of these lol

[obtuse geyser]

i only posted my formations here late. which also makes the pariah comment funny, no one cares or knows about me for better or worse 😂 i can say and do whatever i want. bing chilling.

and the people who i posted my formation to here seemed all pretty happy with it

[obtuse geyser]

oh and the pickleliam ones on reddit. good comedy.

[unique vapor]

Pre-Nomad I was just trying a bunch of random things using various units, didn't really have time to experiment enough because work. I just wasn't enemy formation picking like I initially planned on doing and kept trying the Challenge wave because I wanted the points.

For most of the strike, I used Pelican Frontline with Maulers mid-line and Nomads backline

When I replaced 1/3 Nomads with Fodder for SP, it worked just as well.

lost on average 2 Pelicans, but better targeting and placement would've made it 1 average from what I found out testing today.

a well prepared f2p would've been able to do the same

[haughty zinc]

Honestly i found the challenge wave to sometimes be a bit easier than the usual waves

[unique vapor]

It was 1/3 I'd fight, but near the middle I didn't want to bother because it was losing more units

I also used the same strat for backline, but with 2 wimps and a tanky anything next to them whihc usually either lost the whole frontline or just the wimps

[stable shoal]

❌ ❌

the nomads aren't essential they're just what I ended up using

[unique vapor]

but yeah

appparently mass production isn't mass production if you don't do it in advance

[stable shoal]

other things that count as prep
ranking units that aren't normally used

[unique vapor]

same here, they were just AA for me and Mauler redundancy I guess

[stable shoal]

once they were at R5 I sometimes used them over the mauler for vehicles

[haughty zinc]

Peacekeepers would've helped me but i assumed the SW would shred them instantly

[unique vapor]

Unit ranks - 40%

mass production -25%

Formation finding - 35%

is what I'd say Boss Strike is

[haughty zinc]

My success rate spiked when I went from r3 to r4 heaviers (and r4-r5 nomads too)

[twilit kiln]

yep its what makes day 1 hardest regardless of whether we get nomads or not

day 1 has to be tanked with heavy losses nevertheless

[unique vapor]

mass production is often overvalued, but it is definitely more than 10% because you can outright replace formation finding with it if you're max level, and possibly do things faster than someone who hasn't.

but unit ranks matter a ton, especially the first 4-5

mass production also lets you get away with greedier formations like mine

[stable shoal]

or just deal with bad RNG

[unique vapor]

yeah

[stable shoal]

and no you don't need more than 100 tanks unless you're just sending it

[versed knot]

no his strat doesnt work regardless of who you are if you use heavier tanks

they die

its for speed

[obtuse geyser]

damn i was about to get back to the other stuff and now i got to get to this

[unique vapor]

actually

Unit ranks - 45/50%

Mass production - 22.5/20%

Formation Finding - 32.5/30%

is what I'd say

[haughty zinc]

Being able to brute force suboptimal encounters with unit reserves definitely noticably helps negate the formation finding rng

[obtuse geyser]

idk what you are trying to tell me. ok the strat doesnt function overall? so... why glaze him?

[stable shoal]

if your goal is about 1m you can probably be just fine with ~50 at most
even on nonsense BS lineups

[twilit kiln]

Dinnee's biggest issue is not being f2p, its limiting himself to not buying a single nano building or unit even with what a f2p gets

and it lines up with THE story

[versed knot]

in what world am i glazing him

[obtuse geyser]

why use him as an f2p metric

[versed knot]

im bringing up that f2p

f2p's can mass produce

which means they can succede

at a slower pace

because its about time

hes not the average F2P obviously

duh

[obtuse geyser]

why use him as a reference point when his strategy is non functional?

[versed knot]

it isnt non functional as it got him millions of points

are you saying non-lossless is non-functional?

guh?

[unique vapor]

the point was that it was functional, just by a different metric and not explained the best

[versed knot]

if your only measure of success if never touching your repair bay, then you are simply not playing the right gamemode

BS is about managed losses

and preperation (and for leaderboard its about having no work/stuff to do)

[unique vapor]

but explained better later

[versed knot]

almost 0 to do with skill

[obtuse geyser]

give me 2 minutes to find atlas' stream

[twilit kiln]

Day 1 - Dinnee uses a sub-optimal formation when f2p would have slotted in a vet, demo etc in a heavier mauler chucker formation. this results in disproportionate losses that chew through the tank stocks faster while being slower

Nomad drops, he dont nano promotion, he uses only 2 in his fights, with nothing else carrying him they promptly get attritioned

with the Nomads not helping that much Dinnee runs out of an army and start wimping

obviously in top guilds like THE wimping is a no no for point speed

Dinnee falls behind, the jokes get rough and he got fed up

Cue the crashout at t14

[obtuse geyser]

yeah no look im not talking about his score post nomad

post nomad everyone and their mother could find a lossless 56

[twilit kiln]

dinnee is extreme f2p, he straight up dont use nanos

so he will perform worse than regular f2p that ration their nanos

when the only solution is nomads

and if you only use them, 2 isnt enough

[obtuse geyser]

i only buy nano units and i posted my no nano formation above. 3 mins/6k points with low-survivable losses. (ofc have to take time off for resets)

[versed knot]

i think you could split it between 2 nomads and maulers for sure

but with the 2 hour promotions its at least 10 hours to get the nomads super in shape

i think you could get by with r4 maybe

[twilit kiln]

then he has definitely fallen behind when those formations came out, since THE dont bother with pure f2p formations (Dinnee is the exception)

[haughty zinc]

I'm so glad my guild is in-between being tryhards about the BS but also being good enough to hit T10 (even if barely, and carried by a few players), us talking about being reduced to wimps was hilarious

[twilit kiln]

outside of t13 wimps is very viable

[versed knot]

ye idk where he is now, i honestly don't know anything about his formations I just thought of F2P player on the leaderboard and he was the first name that came up

[twilit kiln]

even t13 wimps are great to supplement formations or being used to top up 200k-400k points

[versed knot]

yeah i found PKs were better than wimps, but I already had like 150 PKs ready to go

[obtuse geyser]

see exactly. you just dont know whats up and picked a random recognizable name as an example

[unique vapor]

it seems like you're grasping at any straw you can find

[obtuse geyser]

about what? i am 99% sure dinnee did not have millions on day 1 or 2 pre nomad like milky is saying

[unique vapor]

because you refuse to see anything but your own perspective

[obtuse geyser]

milky legit does not know what they are talking about

so like his strat is not the way to go. i dont know why its getting used as a metric. i lied i do know why. its because the people using it dont know what they are talking about.

like milky does not know who dinnee is on the leaderboard. where dinnee was on the leaderboard. what formation dinnee was using. and wants to use dinnee to talk about f2ps?

it is stupid

[versed knot]

because dinnee is the most popular f2p player

and was on the leaderboard

that is why i used him as a reference

[twilit kiln]

I think theres merit in the argument that Dinnee was being ragged on, the top leaderboard changed their name to him

[versed knot]

oh yeah that happened

sorry im not saying right now

i meant in the beginning

he was like number 4 or smtn on the first day

[unique vapor]

I remember seeing Dinee at the top day 1 as well

[versed knot]

this is from AP's day 1 stream

he was number 5

[obtuse geyser]

oh my god

🤣

OH MY GOD

LOOK AT IT MAN

READ

[versed knot]

is that not his acc?

[obtuse geyser]

D1nnee

[stable shoal]

that's gotta be the fake

[obtuse geyser]

i cant 🤣

[versed knot]

this is from his own youtube video?

[obtuse geyser]

this is too funy

you know what im done

my point is made

[versed knot]

oh i see the 1 looks like a lowercase i

ah alright

[obtuse geyser]

if anyone wants to know why i crash out

well

ok cya im done

[versed knot]

not sure what point it validates besides "dont reference dinnee"

[unique vapor]

back to other stuff

mass producers units to succeed

attributes next to none of it to their success

doesn't count mass production mid-strike to be mass production

[versed knot]

ye

that was really what i was more confused about

[unique vapor]

leaves acting though it was only 10% of their success

[versed knot]

is that he felt formation > mass production

LOL

[unique vapor]

Ranks, formation, and production are all about equally important

this person was just ignoring ranks as part of it and grossly undervauing mass production

[versed knot]

a big thing we push in PSC is unit count

it paid off a lot in this BS

[unique vapor]

unit count was like the biggest reason my players didn't do better as well

which was never addressed after I said it

[versed knot]

i think he was just mad about me referencing dinnee

im not sure

[unique vapor]

yeah

[obtuse geyser]

i did. you can keep strawmanning my point. but at the same time its too hard to hold 2 conversations at once.

so ill leave it there.

[versed knot]

can you repost your thoughts as to formation vs unit count

because i believe our understanding is as fragment said above

[versed knot]

this

[unique vapor]

when

[versed knot]

this whole exchange LOL

[obtuse geyser]

yep, most of it is the formation

im glad youve picked up elementary literacy

between formation and production. if you add unit ranks in sure it changes, but that wasnt something i had as like a 3 point scale.

i dont think i will convince frag of anything though. its a difference of opinion. theres no point. he thinks mass production accounts for more. i dont.

[versed knot]

considering most formations are going to have you lose fodder units (wimps/PKs) or at least 1 tank (heavier) i think you might need to have some amount of them before the BS

[unique vapor]

you attributed a good chunk of your success and something you apparently deemed necessary to do more of mid strike, as 10%

training more seems like it contradicts your entire point

[versed knot]

which would lean towards mass production

[versed knot]

but this is the equivalent of "nuh uh"

[obtuse geyser]

i am a top performing grinder, my requirements like dinnees arent applicable to the normal playerbase. i am self aware of this fact.

no one needed to build like i did to perform in this strike

if you came in with 1 chucker 3 pelicans, enough to run the formation, and just healed when you took your losses

come out

100k points good enough for t10

formation is 99%

6k a battle

[cosmic pine]

Problem of being a f2p is always has been lack of resources

[obtuse geyser]

i lied i was a top performing grinder for a day than i sat on my ass the rst of the boss strike 🤣
not by unit limitations, but by choice.

[unique vapor]

like I agree formation is more important than mass production, but not by a whole lot

this is my thoughts

Unit ranks - 45/50%

Mass production - 22.5/20%

Formation Finding - 32.5/30%

is what I'd say

100k isn't going to be good enough for t10 for most players... nor will most players have the time to camp their repair bays

[versed knot]

ok im in a whole different world here because we are talking about t10

i thought this was a conversation about being competitive

mb

[unique vapor]

if we shift to t10 discussions

most t10 players are casuals who don't have a huge amount of time to dedicate to BS which tilts mass production over formation due to heal timers

[cosmic pine]

Well theyre trying to change how bs works

[versed knot]

yeah i would say its more formation if your just going to make do with very little resources

(which is a t10 player)

i think one of my guild members mom's got 100k points

then got bored and quit

[unique vapor]

I retract this statement, there are different t10 players

which is better is going to vary from player to player

[cosmic pine]

Dont forget that most casual doesn't have all of their unit max out

[obtuse geyser]

fair. but again, you log in once or twice a day, albeit with a good formation, maybe not bare minimum but like 2-3 spares. fuckk you can run for like half an hour, easy 30k points in one session. 4 days 120k points.

[unique vapor]

which is another point in favor of mass production because lower ranked units won't perform as well and will die more often

this seems like a comp player misunderstanding casuals if anything

[obtuse geyser]

it is exactly my thought that this focus the community places on unit depth is what pushes people to emulate the scoremaxing attritional approach of top grinders instead of the sustainable lossless one that would suit them better. it creates a self fulfilling prophecy that people believe boss strikes require mass casualties.

i dont believe anyone in good faith can believe mass production is the key to succeeding in a boss strike at a casual level after seeing the video of the formation i posted

like i dont get it

all you need is 1 guy to teach you the right idea

and you remove 90% of the attrition

[twilit kiln]

mass production is very good until someone figures out the formation, or teaches it

that is not the case in the first day where the pacing is most important imo

[unique vapor]

I try to push my players towards more sustainable ones

it still doesn't work for them as well as it does for me because I have higher unit ranks and more of them, not for all of them, but the more casual ones.

Mass production is really important if you can't camp the game for heals and don't have max rank units

I don't think anyone believes its the only key

I mean, I'm sitting here saying it's a bit over twice as important as you're saying it is but still less than formation finding and you're still arguing like we think its the one thing

[twilit kiln]

if you need to bleed 100 tanks to keep t11 pace, you do it

[obtuse geyser]

no exactly. why is pacing in the first day the most important?

see the ideas are just wrong when you think about it

[cosmic pine]

First of all that requires to train 100 tanks

[obtuse geyser]

why not let things settle a bit, dont waste you army, come in on the second or third day and crush out a good session?

[unique vapor]

your formation would not work as well with lower ranked units

it'd have more losses, more often

[twilit kiln]

morale is very important, if you have less than 1d 18hr hours left on the last tier you want to push its hard to make it happen

[obtuse geyser]

like if you just stop to question the conventional wisdom so many possibilities open up

[unique vapor]

I think you misrepresent the "conventional wisdom"

conventional wisdom is do all the things: rank units, build a lot of them, find a good formation

people aren't always good at conveying that, nor at doing those things, but that's what the conventional wisdom is

[obtuse geyser]

communicate with the guild. i mean yeah this kinda requires you to have a good strategists but say, we will cook something. chill out. take it easy. we'll smash it out later.

[unique vapor]

at least to my understanding based on what I've seen

if anything, this community seems to place the most importance on unit ranks

which seems to be correct as far as overall performance and success goes

[obtuse geyser]

ok ofc you dont throw out the baby with the bathwater, im just saying you dont take things for granted, be willing to go against the grain a bit more.

side note its not like low rank units dont work either. i have f2p friends who dont grind like i do sharing my strats with r3 pelicans r4 chuckers or replacing them with demomen and still finding success, more losses yes but its still feasible.

yes my f2p friends bought demomen with their f2p nanos. f2ps spend their nanos

they are not trying to create a min feasibility grindable no nano strat like i am. they are trying to get their points with what they have.

adapting the strategy i came up with

and finding success

[unique vapor]

okay so no one was wrong and everyone just has different solutions for different types of people

in other words, what I've been saying: ranks, formations, and mass production are all about equal

which works best is going to depend on the type of player and what they already have available or like using

[obtuse geyser]

like i said those friends do not have good unit ranks or mass production. theya er not grinders. but they have the strat and that is enough to succeed.

it is really mostly the strat

[unique vapor]

and mass production is as well

unit ranks can also brute force and always improve either

[obtuse geyser]

idk if your guild has worse strats and struggles i get how you think its different. but thats just strat gap to me.

like was anyone in your guild running that strat i posted. which i dont think you can watch and in good faith say is a bad strategy.

its a damn good strategy

yes or no

ok you probably have strats like a tier below. which yes works but then explains why you believe theres a higher emphasis on the other parts.

[obtuse geyser]

also lets be accurate my statement on conventional wisdom was a response to cabbage saying first day momentum is crucial like its a given

[unique vapor]

Why would I say it's bad?

They were running good strategies just not yours (which has been another point I'm making you seem to think your strat and way of doing things is the only "good" one) and just not ones that worked well for what they had available (r6 units or just more of them would've 100% solved the problems in the formations I saw), splitting tanking, using expendable, longer lasting units over still likely to die less expendable ones, in fact, some were similar, understanding Maulers tankiness and using that, etc.

Their strategies would have worked and, if we are going by t10 standards, sometimes did work, in less but still some cases even for t11. (I took the player's targets into account when I said they were struggling)

The problem was they picked a strategy that didn't work for what they had access to... they either didn't have the right units, enough of them, or have them ranked up.

there are three prongs, all are about equally important and dependant on the type of player.

A good strat won't save you from bad rng, just like a lot of units won't save you from a poor strat. Neither works all that well with unranked or under-leveled units.

A combination of the three leads to the mosts success and opens up the most options.

Strategy comes from adapting and figuring out flaws, which many of my players did/do, even accurately.

It all comes back to there being different types of players, which different strategies work better for because they're either more willing to use them or going after different goals.

Not better or worse, but dependant on the person and what they have available.

Ignoring first day momentum is wild... day 1 is when a lot of players make a judgement call and points earned during that day end up being important.

Again, it continues to seem like you are only looking at things from one side and refusing to acknowledge just how much other things played a role.

TLDR: strategy was there, prep needed to make it work or make it work as long as they wanted it to wasn’t

Also I just realized we’re arguing over a 10-15% difference in opinion when it comes to the importance of mass production…

[obtuse geyser]

not my fault 🤷‍♂️

[pallid lichen]

that is not Dinee xdd

[pallid lichen]

@obtuse geyser me and heudhe did mavs r9 with heaviers and maulers as f2ps

we still mass produced tanks tho and wimps

just cuz we knew it wont be lossless for too long

clear time was more on whether the mavs would 1 shot the chunook or not, and if one of the tanks got focused too heavily, reset

we also just did formation 7 at lvl 55

we used heaviers btw

but used the mavs as bait as well for SW aa

we found a good strat but i dont think we're grinding that much longer without like 30+ heaviers in stock

rng can still sometimes mess ur runs

[twilit kiln]

Law and Heudhe are amongst the best f2p players

I say it with sincerity

[obtuse geyser]

interesting. not too familiar with the 55 formations, in my quick glance they seemed less chessable when it came to avoiding the alpha truck and uzi guys' ranges. which makes tanks more sensible. roughly what was your tank loss rate? and how fast were your battles?

one of my guildmates who ran at 55 (not f2p and a dirty fr*gger) jumped up to 56 on the last day to see what the waves were like and his opinion was shouldve done it sooner because it was easier and faster for more score 🤣

[pallid lichen]

this was the lvl 55 formation 7

mauler 4x the 1st wave, mav the chunook 2nd wave and mauler all, then mauler all waves and hope ur tanks dont get shredded

the mavs in the front row helps bait out bus and garbage truck, as well as annihilator aa attacks

which have awful offense

i ran like 2hrs of grinding lossless

nomad just helped with clear speed, but overall, it was doable with mavs r9, as they could one tap the chunook if rng was on ur side

[pallid lichen]

tank loss rate was around 1-2 heaviers per few hrs

i got 2.2 mil btw

heudhe got 3mil

it's doable with prep and strat, both can coexist imo

[obtuse geyser]

but yeah this is kind of my point if you deploy the tanks you shouldnt be losing them en masse. then you dont need whatever crazy numbers people say. like im not schizo.
i see mass production as mass production, something relevant to high score top 20 guild grinders. not as minimum viable mass producible units for lossless/low loss comps.

[pallid lichen]

ye i think the mass production of tanks works if u have the good formation and strat covered, else ur just throwing tanks to the meat grinder

ive seen too many ppl with heaviers and megas gone in 1 run

💀

ppl forgot they can reroll a formation

[obtuse geyser]

like yeah im not schizo. crazy these people are trying to tell me im wrong about how f2ps should be playing and what successful f2ps do

[pallid lichen]

with a regular repair bay and hospital, we cant do like 4 heaviers per run as losses

😭

too costly

wimp runs are also masochistic in nature, bruh 300 pts ggs

i tried em, thats why i knew

[obtuse geyser]

i got 1.2m but i got it in a day then farmed new haven the rest of the strike 🤣. my guild leaders were chill cos our min was 400k and we got our goal of t12 easy.
https://youtu.be/FayXMU5DvgQ this was my clear at 56, 6k/3mins on successful clear, no weighting bonus. which is totally viable for a leaderboard score if actually committed to grinding.

[pallid lichen]

good stuff bro

3 mins was also my avg clear speed

the resetting was the only thing that actually took time

and energy

xd

[obtuse geyser]

you prob saw me say it but man i tried the mav and idk shite was whack for me whiffed way too much. idk if the lower level stats on the 55 chunook matter but i gave up on it early.

[obtuse geyser]

real 😭

[pallid lichen]

the chunook didnt really matter imo, it was just whether the mavs felt like hitting it

💀

we got a couple of one shots from it tho

so thats cool

r9 mav also has a ton of def to dodge and tanky af

also resisted the dot pretty well, just the perfect unit for our runs

[obtuse geyser]

the other thing i dont get when people talk about it is like even if we had more repair bays or hospitals... we wouldnt have the damn steel! like roundabout 20k storage for f2ps. 20 tanks + whatever is produced when losing even 1 tank a run, thats like 120, 150k points + whatever your initial stock is *6k. horrible way to play for any high score.

not having those extra levels for the durability on mav def hurt its viability for me yeah mine was r7

[pallid lichen]

yea thats why i just think we can get more regular healing buildings without it being broken

cuz we just bottlenecked by rss

🥀

the rss drought is rough

im having to resort to gantas grinding to keep up

[obtuse geyser]

brother 💀

have you tried the new haven grinding spot?

60 iron 15 steel 10 concrete

apartment building and fences near the left

might be better or comparable to gantas with nomads or mauler

[pallid lichen]

im 55

💀

[obtuse geyser]

wait lmfao i forgot it unlocks at 56

well i guess youll be there soon

[severe shore]

We have a couple of solid f2p in our guild, love these guys

Had a guy in the millions and he is strictly f2p

[pallid lichen]

congrats on the top 20 finish @severe shore

goated

[severe shore]

Thank you sir, thank you 🙏 question, is kings your guild, or are you also part of aces? Either way, congrats on whichever place your guild took!

[pallid lichen]

kings is our semi comp guild yea

aces is the comp one

im in aces yea

[versed knot]

Yeah I didn’t even realize they wanted to talk about T10 players mainly

Cuz I was talking about leaderboard pushing and generally if you want speed you can’t just skip till battle 8

But I see both sides

[pallid lichen]

fcking boo tricked all of us, the dinee special

[obtuse geyser]

There's 2 conversations. When I'm talking with other people about general f2p viability and approach, I'm drawing on my experience teaching my strats to more casual friends/randoms and how they fared. When I'm talking to Law, a fellow high performance f2p grinder, I'm drawing on my own BS experience. But there's a throughline between both of these: f2ps/casuals, resource constrained players, are not succeeding because of attrition and thus mass production, on the low or high end. They succeed because of lossless/low loss eco comps. No one is burning hundreds of heaviers. Hell no one is burning hundreds of chuckers and succeeding. It is not real.

From my experience sharing strategies with people, if you have that formation, you dont need the maxed rank units to make it work. Ofc if you are at r1-2 ok like just shoot yourself in the foot and run a race, no one can save you. But like r4? Playable. I would take 10 r4 heaviers with a good eco formation over 50 r4 heaviers with the attrition strats 99% of the playerbase was running any day. 5 r4 maulers with my comp over 20 with the tank frontline + mauler backline strats at 56.

That's the crux of it to me. I posted my formation post nomad, bare minimum info. Still a game changer for other people's boss strike viability.
#general message

[obtuse geyser]

You really dont have a choice as an f2p. Law here is literally saying him and heudhe ran the same approach searching for battle 7 at 55 as I recommended spamming 8 at 56.You say you understand the f2p experience yet it contradicts what the top f2p players have been doing successfully. Obviously its based off your misconception dinnee made it near the top with that approach when he very likely didnt even come close to the leaderboard at all throughout the whole strike. There might be a separate argument that fragless f2p might just not have been leaderboard viable. Idk, didnt bother to run the numbers. But pushing high scores as an f2p even if not leaderboard, still no one in practice puts speed over sustainability like you believe.

[tame otter]

💤

[versed knot]

Again though it just leads back to more preparation = better results over a longer period of time. I understand that lossless formations are more resource friendly which is the main issue with being F2P and I personally think BS is a slog regardless of whether you are a whale or F2P, but if you ever wanted to push leaderboard as F2P (not sure if possible without crazy AS frags) I don’t think you can while having to reset for a single specific battle (maybe more possible F2P-fragless if you have nomads to push for leaderboard)

Not saying you shouldn’t shoot for lossless, of course you should, but in a leaderboard context, you need to be fast and consistent which comes from not resetting as much

Once Nomad is added though, I honestly don’t think it was hard to be lossless even without frags

But I do agree, as a F2P you can’t be careless (and not shoot for lossless), but that also applies to whales, unless they just buy more which would be crazy

This game is currently about getting frag diffed for leaderboard lol

[silk tinsel]

As someone who does not have any AS fragments but 3 AC fragments,

I do feel that fragments should give you a massive power boost! They’re rare and they’re fun and thus makes going up against the AS each week exciting.

— I do believe there should be some bad luck protection but that’s a different topic for a different day.

However:

1. I feel that the AC fragments need a boost and shouldn’t be power creep. They should t ourtshine everything but they should be a value added at higher levels.

2. Most importantly and in agreement with your post. Nanopod units should not be the answer to being successful at boss strikes

[cosmic pine]

I think ac frags are due for 3 extra rank up.

Maybe an extra attack too?

[versed knot]

Yeah they could get the ancient sentry treatment where their armor is much more effective (20% for each damage type)

[tender owl]

I basically wrote exactly this on Reddit, and some dude said I should “apologize” to Madrona 😂

[obtuse geyser]

true that and nano'd skyraptor for one shotting air. nomad made anti air so much easier but still having to 2/3 shot it on bad luck sucked.