naval units need fewer t3 costs not more
#Balancing the Buoy: Why Healing Should Cost One Gear
minor coral
elder flame
Absolutely agree with this take.
The Buoy is undeniably one of the most durable and strategically valuable naval defenses, but as things stand, its maintenance cost is disproportionately low compared to its power. Other advanced units—whether land fortifications like the Portable Wall or vehicles like Heavy Tanks—always follow the established principle that if a rare resource is needed to build them, a portion of that resource is also needed to repair them. The Buoy being the sole exception creates an imbalance.
Adding a 1× Gear cost for Buoy repairs makes sense for several reasons:
Game Balance: Right now, players can essentially recycle Buoys endlessly without any real drawback, making them “free damage sponges.” A token Gear cost would introduce just enough friction to prevent abuse while still allowing Buoys to shine in their defensive role.
Consistency: If a Portable Wall needs Gears for upkeep, then the Buoy—its naval counterpart—should too. This maintains fairness across unit types.
Thematic Logic: The Buoy is a mechanical structure, not just wood and steel. It fits the game’s realism that repairing it should require specialized parts.
Resource Economy: Even a small recurring cost forces players to think carefully about when and how often to deploy Buoys. This ensures they remain a valuable investment, not a costless crutch.
A one-Gear repair requirement wouldn’t make the Buoy weak or undesirable—it would just put it in line with the broader repair economy and reinforce the idea that even the strongest defenses demand upkeep. It preserves the Buoy’s identity as a “good investment” while keeping gameplay fair and strategic.
In short: this change would enhance both fairness and immersion without undermining the Buoy’s role. 100% support the adjustment.
dense fractal
Not reading all that but it would make people mad so I shall endorse it
digital grove
If this was part of a complete overhaul of naval re-balancing, then I believe more players would be open to having a higher repair cost.
However, with the current state of naval, the fact the buoy is so cheap to repair is one of the few benefits to players who are struggling with naval encounters.
Everything about naval needs to be looked at.
The proposal is sound, but it needs to be part of a larger overhaul.
Not a stand alone adjustment.
minor coral
Nerfing the best free to play naval unit without doing anything else is a terrible idea.
Its made even worse by the lack of pvp and thus more sources of bars and gears.
It isn't even a balance issue because the only really comparable unit to the buoy is Monster Grouper I guess, but even then Monster Grouper can attack (and 1 shot) so it still has uses over the buoy, buoy is also capped at a unit limit of 3 (as is the Monster Grouper). You can't really overshadow anything if there isn't a real comparison to begin with.
As far as the realism point: its a cartoony video game, also the buoy isn't mobile and doesn't look like it would need any complex parts.
||ignoring how much this reads like AI|| this poster and walls of text supporting it both get quite a few things wrong, you can't get gears from refinement and many units (mostly nano), have healing costs that don't line up with training costs: merit units don't require merits to heal, Chucker doesn't cost stone, tf2 units cost bars, pelican doesn't cost gears, UMG costs oil, etc. It definitely is less of a rule and more a result of healing costs seemingly being largely vibes based more than anything else.
AS far as the Portable Wall and Heavy Tank that keep sgetting brought up goes: they're unlocked 9 levels after the buoy and have full blocking, the buoy doesn't.
This is all ignoring how a lot of healing costs in Battle Nations are already excessive and more or less cost you an entire unit if dies 3-5 times, the exceptions being t3 resources and units like umg and tf2 units that cost resources not used in training costs to heal.
elder flame
holy yap
rose surge
elder flame
frank pawn
- PvP isn't even in the game yet.
- Buoy's do not 'realistically' need gears. They're floating pieces of steel/wood.
- Video game doesn't need to be realistic.
- A buoy is not a 'cutting edge defense'.
- People would just start using the 'gunboat' as a damage soak (albeit not as good).
- Make this argument for Super Tanks instead.
- Way too many words.
elder flame
🤡
I completely agree with this perspective. This isn’t about making life harder for F2P players, it’s about making the Buoy play by the same rules that every other heavy defense unit already follows. Right now the Buoy stands out as an exception—it’s essentially the naval Portable Wall, with incredible durability, status immunity, and the ability to soak massive amounts of damage, yet it can be recycled indefinitely for nothing rarer than steel and gold. No other “decoy” or tank-style defense in Battle Nations gets that luxury.
The point about its role is especially important. The Grouper exists to dish out damage, while the Buoy exists to stall and protect. These roles aren’t interchangeable, and that’s fine—but what tips the scales is that the Buoy’s shield role comes without the upkeep cost that normally balances out such powerful utility. Portable Walls, heavy tanks, advanced vehicles, and other mechanical defenses all draw on their rare build resources when repaired. That mechanic creates tension: each time you rely on them, you burn through part of your rare resource pool. The Buoy skips this step entirely, which is why it feels off compared to the rest of the game’s design.
A one-Gear repair cost makes perfect sense. It’s consistent with established mechanics, it’s thematically logical (a complex naval barrier would obviously need spare parts to fix), and it adds just enough friction to prevent Buoys from being an endless free wall. It doesn’t make them unusable—it just forces players to consider whether they want to keep leaning on naval shields or use their Gears for other vehicles and upgrades. That’s the kind of meaningful tradeoff Battle Nations has always been built on.
Ultimately, Buoys are still an excellent investment and remain incredibly valuable in naval battles. Adding a small gear requirement to repairs doesn’t diminish their role—it elevates it, by aligning them with the broader economy and ensuring their use carries the same kind of weighty decision-making as other top-tier defenses. Strong, status-immune fortifications should be powerful, but they should also demand upkeep. This change would bring the Buoy into balance without undercutting what makes it great.
flat badger
minor coral
alterantively: remove the gear cost from portable to accomplish the same goal you're trying to achieve and give the portable more of a trade-off when compared to tanks in the process while providing a much more beneficial, f2p focused result that reduces negative gameplay loops and the negative reinforcement prevalent in BN that many (better) modern games lack.
frank pawn
alterantively: remove the gear cost from portable to accomplish the same goal yo...
but muh realism!
elder flame
I have to disagree with this suggestion. Removing the gear cost from the Portable Wall to match the Buoy wouldn’t “fix” the problem—it would actually make things worse by undermining one of the core balancing principles in Battle Nations.
The gear repair cost on Portable Walls is what keeps them from being abused endlessly. If you remove that, then land defenses become just as spammable as Buoys are now, and you’ve doubled the problem instead of solving it. Yes, it would feel more generous in the short term, but it strips away the very resource tension that gives the game depth. Rare resource upkeep is how the game forces players to think strategically about when to deploy strong fortifications versus when to conserve them. Take that away, and the Portable Wall becomes nothing more than an infinite-use barrier, which trivializes ground combat.
On top of that, making all decoy-style defenses effectively free would actually reduce variety in gameplay. Why bother with tanks or more nuanced unit choices if you can just throw down unlimited cheap walls? Balance works because each option comes with tradeoffs—walls are great shields, but they cost rare resources; tanks can fight back, but they’re more expensive to train and repair. Flattening those distinctions removes the decision-making layer and encourages repetitive “wall spam” strategies that get stale fast.
I get the appeal of making things more accessible for F2P, but accessibility can’t come at the cost of game balance. Negative gameplay loops aren’t solved by giving players unlimited free defenses—they’re solved by tightening resource design so that choices feel meaningful, not punishing. A one-Gear heal cost for Buoys addresses that imbalance directly without turning every wall unit into an infinite shield.
If anything, the Buoy should be brought up to the Portable Wall’s standard, not the other way around. That keeps consistency across land and naval defenses, preserves the resource economy, and ensures defensive strategies remain strong but not limitless.
frank pawn
just farm more 4 heads
make portable walls and buoys cost 50 gears instead!
flat badger
Honestly the 1 Gear cost is nothing especially when you get the mystery troops each week.
Small price to pay
elder flame
make portable walls and buoys cost 50 gears instead!
i dont think this is constructive to the discussion here
rose surge
nah than i wouldnt be able to sp drop my boyz
frank pawn
And saying 'farm more 4 heads' was?
rose surge
yeah just get good
frank pawn
Apologies you're right
elder flame
he could of been more eloquent with words but yes
frank pawn
i dont think this is constructive to the discussion here
You're right I should just post an agree/disagree AI genereated reply
rose surge
that would just add to ur skill issue
flat badger
that would just add to ur skill issue
frank pawn
He gets a lot of bitches ya know?
rose surge
bro just types 1000 words per min
elder flame
i was not sweating, this is very easy to accomplish with practice
just like getting gears to repair buoys
frank pawn
For 1) he replied with a post which agreed and another that disagreed.
- he's shitposting
elder flame
im not sure what this means
dont listen to the haters, they dont understand the vision and are probably just from c or b tier guilds.
digital grove
Proposing a T3 cost on a unit, when there are players experiencing a resource bottleneck won’t be taken well by everyone.
Not much to be done about that.
My personal qualm is with it being proposed as a stand alone adjustment, rather than a part of a larger overall naval re-balance.
As I said, I personally believe your proposal to be sound. It is in line with the buoy’s contemporary units and makes sense.
But without any other accompanying updates to address the cost of production, healing, or enemy drops for those resources, it’s comes off as exacerbating the resource bottleneck.
Even if is is only a modest cost, and it is, the perception of it placing a further burden on players who may be struggling is present.
elder flame
I don’t think this is a fair criticism. The point of adding a modest Gear cost to Buoy repairs isn’t to make life harder for players—it’s to close an inconsistency that lets Buoys bypass the very resource checks every other comparable defense already faces. Saying it should only happen as part of a sweeping naval rebalance delays what is, at its core, a simple fix to an obvious imbalance.
Yes, resource bottlenecks exist, but that’s part of Battle Nations’ design philosophy. Rare resources are meant to force hard choices between upgrading, building, or sustaining units. If Buoys can be repaired indefinitely without ever dipping into that economy, they become a loophole—a “free wall” in a system that otherwise makes you pay to protect your forces. That isn’t fair to players who rely on Portable Walls, heavy armor, or other defenses that already carry upkeep costs.
Framing it as exacerbating bottlenecks overlooks the scale of the proposed change. One Gear per repair is not a punishing tax—it’s the lightest possible touch, especially compared to the Portable Wall’s higher repair costs. It doesn’t cripple F2P players; it simply aligns Buoys with the norms already set by similar units. Players already manage these resource decisions elsewhere in the game, and Buoys shouldn’t be exempt just because they’re naval.
Finally, waiting for a “larger rebalance” risks nothing happening at all. Naval combat already has far fewer moving parts than land, so addressing Buoys now is a targeted, practical adjustment that strengthens overall consistency without needing to overhaul everything at once. A small, sensible step in the right direction is better than leaving a glaring exception untouched.
I fully agree with this take. Naval balance absolutely needs a broader pass, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore the most glaring outlier in the meantime. The Buoy is not just “another naval tank”—it’s a uniquely powerful, status-immune shield that can currently be recycled indefinitely for nothing rarer than steel or gold. That puts it way out of line with Portable Walls and heavy armor, both of which require ongoing upkeep tied to their build resources. Leaving the Buoy exempt undermines consistency and creates an exploitative loop where naval battles become trivialized by free, endlessly renewable walls.
The concern about resource bottlenecks is understandable, but it doesn’t really apply here. One Gear per heal is a tiny cost relative to the Buoy’s insane durability and utility. Players are already spending multiple Gears per repair on other defensive units—asking for a single Gear to maintain something that can tank more than a Mammoth-class battleship isn’t unfair, it’s balanced. This isn’t about punishing players, it’s about keeping unit economics consistent so choices actually matter.
Waiting for a “big naval rework” before addressing this just prolongs the problem. A modest, targeted adjustment like this is exactly how you keep the game healthy between larger updates. It’s a simple fix that restores parity with land defenses and makes naval combat more strategic, without undercutting what makes the Buoy valuable.
digital grove
I understand where you are coming from, don’t get me wrong.
I’ll keep reiterating that I do agree with your overall proposal, I don’t want to be misconstrued on that point.
My qualm is with it being standalone, to be clear.
But, allow me to ask you some question for clarity if you don’t mind.
Why shouldn’t it wait?
Why should it be an adjustment outside of an over-all naval rebalancing?
PvP isn’t active yet.
Player aren’t able to exploit other players or the competitive meta game using a cheap recycling damage sponge.
It’s for resource grinding and the single player campaign at the moment.
And if it is giving players an edge to combat resource bottlenecks, why does it have to be addressed now, outside of a naval rebalance, or a PvP update?
Shouldn’t it wait to be addressed until we are at PvP, where that cheap loophole could be used to exploit other player?
If it’s only helping players in any potential way to address a resource bottleneck, and not actively harming other players, why close that loophole now, rather than later?
Just to be clear, these are sincere, I want to be able to understand where you’re coming from, not trying to come off as argumentative.
elder flame
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think waiting for PvP or a full naval rebalance is the right approach here. The Buoy being free to recycle isn’t just a PvP issue—it’s already a balance problem in PvE. When a single unit can absorb more punishment than top-end warships and then come back at full strength for the cost of common resources, it trivializes encounters that were meant to carry some level of attrition. Even in the campaign and resource grinding, the Buoy breaks the intended economy by removing any meaningful upkeep cost.
The argument that “it helps players with bottlenecks” cuts both ways. Yes, it makes things easier, but it does so by breaking the game’s consistency. Portable Walls, Heavy Tanks, and other defensive options force you to dip into rarer resources to keep them viable. That’s the tension that makes the resource system work. Letting Buoys bypass that tension entirely sets a precedent that some powerful units are “free” while others demand upkeep, and that inconsistency weakens the overall design.
And while PvP isn’t active yet, it will be. If the problem is clear now, why leave it to fester until later? Adjusting Buoys to cost a single Gear for repairs is a small, contained fix that brings them in line with their land counterparts and maintains the internal logic of the unit economy. Deferring it until a grand naval rebalance risks nothing changing for months or years, while players continue to exploit what is clearly an outlier.
So while I respect the desire to wait for a bigger update, I think this is exactly the kind of straightforward correction that should happen on its own. Naval rebalancing is complex, but this particular issue has a simple solution that keeps things fair and consistent right now.
twilit vector
You might not be aware, but in a previous proposal regarding friends, the creator Alex explicitly stated his intention to limit player resources. For any normal player, it makes no sense to incur unnecessary, avoidable losses for no reason—especially since gears are extremely scarce at this stage of the game. Whether the development team can implement it is one thing, but the proposal itself won’t make the game more enjoyable.
minor coral
It would make it less enjoyable, healing costs are one of the most annoying parts of the game, even going as far as to make other parts of the game like the rng elements feel worse as well
strong sail
I don't even neccesarily disagree with the logic, because yeah buoys are incredibly potent defenses due to high resistances + status immunity and having a t3 cost for their repair cost is not unreasonable. The reason why I gave a thumbs down is because it exacerbates t3 resource scarcity and gives me one more reason to dislike naval in 1 step. If we had occupation or multiplayer to give us a more reliable amount of t3 resources I'd be more willing to endorse the idea but I keep seeing arguments being made that this change should be made right now, and my gut reaction to that is highly negative. Naval boss rewards are already insulting low compared to land bosses, bc seriously like no t4 resources? 1/4 of the of the t3 resources compared to AC? especially when the losses incurred are much higher then AC. The only time Im losing buoys in the first place is against naval bosses and now net rewards will be even smaller if this gets implemented if madrona were to prioritize this. tl dr Fix the issues regarding t3 rss scarcity and naval boss rewards and I'd be more willing to consider the idea.
hollow herald
I personally don't feel like a change in such a manner makes sense. Naval as it currently is more need a complete rebalance. The buoy is too much of a necessity not because it is good, but because it is the only option to draw aggro away from threats to your battleships. Another issue is battleships being the only viable ship as nothing else can take hits without incurring too many losses. The regular encounters already are reset prone because of certain enemies that can almost, or in some cases, one shot them. It adds an inconvenience to an already tough to manage front without being meaningful to it as a whole.
strong sail
I personally don't feel like a change in such a manner makes sense. Naval as it ...
And buoys dont even work as proper defenses alot of the time due to naval having large amounts of high dmg, bloated crit values, breach rng, and most importantly indirect attacks
buoys dont help if a power boat can just hit ur m10 with torpedoes dealing 300 dmg crits and a breach
hollow herald
yeah it is partial blocking iirc so a lot more gets through
elder flame
personally i think the buoy's bravery stat is a bigger issue but i think them costing a gear to heal would be the first step in the right direction to correct the mistakes of the past
yeah, id drop it by probably like 40 or 60
wdym?
its a big number
minor coral
Bravery only matters for attacking units so no it means nothing on the buoy
hollow herald
thats only prevents suppression no?
elder flame
yeah, buoys should be able to be suppressed
other defenses can so it would just bring parity
minor coral
Well, it means less time is spent on the suppression animation for a unit where being suppressed is meaningless anyway
elder flame
idk, skipping the animation feels kind of cheaty to me
hollow herald
but that only affects offense no? are u thinking it creates grey damage?
elder flame
kind of like animation skipping with field agents
elder flame
but that only affects offense no? are u thinking it creates grey damage?
no im thinking of the status affect
strong sail
@kindred turtle hey I noticed u didnt respond to counterpoints, I DO expect a 5 paragraph essay on u breaking down all my points on why Im wrong. now Now. NOW!!
elder flame
<@344981528251465730> hey I noticed u didnt respond to counterpoints, I DO expe...
this seems a little hostile bud, id tone it down a notch
strong sail
no no, no hostility here. Im engaging in the topic
redo it now
I dont want to argue with AI
elder flame
who is using ai?
elder flame
im not using ai though?
i showed i can type at 1k words per minute
it was a real screenshot
i think thats just a skill issue on your part
elder flame
im just trying to have a discussion here why buoys should cost more to heal idk what else you guys want from me
strong sail
@kindred turtle and, I do want atleast 4 cited sources. In APA format
elder flame
idk i think hes just making up words
royal dagger
What does it improves?
elder flame
i have too many gears and no where to spend them
royal dagger
So your argument is, you grinded so hard you have too much gear?
elder flame
yeah im just that good
royal dagger
And thats everyone else situation?
strong sail
idk i think hes just making up words
this is true actually. but that doesnt change the fact that I expect it in APA
elder flame
And thats everyone else situation?
idk maybe they just need to get better
elder flame
idk i think you just have a skill issue tbh
royal dagger
How about making other naval options better instead of making the only good thing naval offers worse?
royal dagger
Im talking to @kindred turtle
hollow herald
I dont think buoy is comparable to any land based defenses as the fronts are just far to different in nature. The gear itself isnt an issue past the point of silverwolves dropping them along with already being leveled enough for AC making its exitence nearly useless extra cost. The balance doesn't make sense as naval is heavily enemy favoured anyway so it only sets players back.
royal dagger
Yeah but shouldn't we focus on the other naval options first, so we have other option and then we can balance the buoy.
strong sail
guys i think lendragon might be using ai too
royal dagger
Like why make it worse first then making it better later?
royal dagger
Honestly yeah
I am seeing the vision
Sadly its being generated by ai rn, So wait a bit.
strong sail
next I want to discuss ideas on how we can elevate the players experience by adding the m100. its the same exact thing as the m10 but better and costs more nanos
strong sail
Why stops at m100 we need m1000 now!
genuis but we can go further
royal dagger
Oh what??? Is that even possible???
royal dagger
No gear needed
strong sail
10 widgets minimum
elder flame
yeah im almost max on them and got nothing to spend them on
royal dagger
the first ever unit to cost nanos to heal
🔥🔥🔥🔥
strong sail
Im hopeful u guys like this proposal
strong sail
i raise u nanopods to repair
hollow herald
hes right, just make the unit permanently lost if it dies
royal dagger
Everyone loves p2p!!!
Who doesn't??
You dont have money? Tough luck.
Reroll your life.
strong sail
I think u meant to say critically polite with nuanced perspective
u misinterpreted fausts post completely!
royal dagger
😱
strong sail
no its real and its big
hollow herald
I thought everyone was being sarcastic.
thought u knew all outcomes
royal dagger
That information is currently locked!!
hollow herald
right cant access that from don
Also this wont change buoy from being needed in fights as repair cost isnt the most important factor. The actual combat is.
elder flame
what about sandbags?
royal dagger
Floating sandbags?? 😍
hollow herald
It doesnt match with other defences as those defense simply dont have to deal with naval enemies. Still isnt very free when ur slots are almost always limited to 4-6 units usually without a defence slot.
strong sail
true sandbags need a rebalance
look at sandbag stats and compare it to the buoy
we need to buff sandbags. now Now. NOW!!
elder flame
yeah, maybe sandbags should cost a bar
royal dagger
Honestly sandbags get outdone by normal any infantry.
strong sail
yeah, maybe sandbags should cost a bar
not good enough, theres certain proprietary sand that is chemically treated. sandbags should cost chem vials to repair
strong sail
2 chem vials is a sufficient repair cost
royal dagger
Dont get baited 😭
old rose
The same people preaching for this are going to be crying once naval boss strikes become a regular thing
hidden root
This made me think of how the Floating Mine is a weaker defense unit, and if that was available to build, it could take less explosive damage but not suffer from a gear cost on repair, while the Buoy can.
cobalt nymph
I'm also gonna disagree here on the fact that losing buoys in regular encounters is nearly impossible. I've had it happen twice ever, both to highly uncommon Minelayer Destroyer deathrays with the 6 missile attack. You only lose buoys against bosses, particularly Dreadnought. Having to spend a gear or two on the buoys would only serve to make the already slim margins Dreadnought provides even smaller.
Seriously, the Dreadnought can roll as few as 4 gears, with the price to repair Buoys, typically all 3 die, that means you're walking away with a single gear's worth of profit on a low roll, and that's assuming you killed the thing without any retreats, an occurence that one could call outright miraculous.
All this would do in the game as it exists now, without a naval balance revamp, would be to make the hardest and least consistent bosses in the game even less rewarding than they currently are.
minor coral
||cut it with the AI use. The inifinite free shields thing was likely scraped from a time when buoys never went to repair. This is also ignoring how most of the text walls read like nonsense, are full of bloat, and barely make any sense||
||this is further compounded by the lack of providing any legitimate benefits of increasing how punishing the game is, which is the main counterarguement: there simply is no tangible benefit to doing it ||
hidden root
Some people mentioned this, but adding this without changes/rebalances to naval as a whole makes this seem unnecessary or needlessly punishing.
minor coral
it's needlessly punishing regardless of naval changes
hidden root
I will agree with them on that.
hidden root
it's needlessly punishing regardless of naval changes
Well, I can see a case to be made on that. I just think that there is a lot to navy battles as it stands currently that needs some fixing, and repair costs can certainly be one of them.
Like, Power Boats are so expensive with the skull costs.
I'd like to see that lowered.
minor coral
repair costs are something that needs to be looked at... in the opposite direction as this post
elder flame
Just to clear the air a bit: none of these replies are AI posts. They’re written by players who’ve been around the game and care about how balance decisions affect Battle Nations in the long run.
It’s easy to look at longer, structured responses and assume “this must be AI,” but that’s not the case here. People are taking the time to write in detail because the topic—Buoy upkeep, resource bottlenecks, and naval balance—isn’t something that can be explained in a one-liner. Good balance discussions need nuance, context, and examples from other units, which naturally makes the replies look more formal or essay-like.
The back-and-forth here has been thoughtful and specific: players are comparing Portable Walls, heavy armor, Grouper roles, repair costs, and how naval/PvP might evolve. That level of detail only comes from people who know the game. Whether you agree or disagree with the proposals, the conversation is all community-driven.
So if the tone feels a little “polished,” that’s just because folks are passionate and want to make their case clearly—not because anyone’s outsourcing the discussion.
minor coral
Buoys aren’t a “wall-style defense” though, they don’t have full blocking and are unlocked much earlier.
Nerfing units like this also reduces both consistency, by making players feel like any unit they use could be made worse at any given point in time, and also faith in the game for the same reason.
sturdy moat
Just to clear the air a bit: none of these replies are AI posts. They’re written...
you're using EM dashes and i've almost never seen an actual human do that in regular conversation
ai does it constantly
elder flame
It’s just a skill issue that more people don’t use it
sturdy moat
here's the real reason buoys shouldn't cost gears: they are inanimate objects with no mechanical parts, they are unlocked before gears are farmable, and naval is bloated with t3 costs to begin with
thick pebble
Everything at this stage already costs gears without any real good source, and naval is so stacked in favor of M10 spam, alongside nearly every enemy having an attack which just ignores blocking units anyways.
This doesn’t…help anything. It doesn’t make naval more interesting, buoys aren’t somehow “overpowered”, no interesting composition is unlocked by making them more costly
Nothing is gained here, except to make the grind that much more grindy. I’m running into bottlenecks as-is
I think Defense units that have no offensive capability should be cheaper generally.
This has probably been repeated in this thread multiple times, but you asked
sturdy moat
buoys being spammable isn't an issue, it's the fact naval is so shallow that is
it's easy to notice people using the same 3 units when they're the only 3 units
minor coral
you're using EM dashes and i've almost never seen an actual human do that in reg...
there's more to it reading like ai than the EM dash but that is the first thing
sturdy moat
of course, but generally those are a good check
that and the fact his speaking mannerisms change completely when he isn't longposting
minor coral
buoys being spammable isn't an issue, it's the fact naval is so shallow that is
don't bother arguing against it, they're just going to AI post the same re-hashed arguement or say skill issue for 8millionth time
sturdy moat
consider that i may want the argument
minor coral
understandable, I did too
dense pine
I mean you’re basically guaranteed to lose all 3 buoys fighting the DN. Basically makes fighting the boss almost pointless given that you’ll lose some, if not most of your battleships.
thick pebble
speaking of gear grinding, on an unrelated note, I should get some opinions on silver wolves
maybe this is simply a skill issue on my part but they certainly feel a touch overtuned, and given they’re the only other method of bars and gears, that isn’t great
dense pine
Like you get maybe two or three bars on an average to high roll, and then 1-3ish gears.
sturdy moat
speaking of gear grinding, on an unrelated note, I should get some opinions on s...
they are certainly somewhat strong but their droprates are very good
the right units are effective at mincing them
dense pine
And hell, I’m running dns with an Ironclad so there is no way in hell I’m suffering bad losses comparatively speaking.
Naval is just kinda not too balanced overall tbh. The M10 has such an edge over the R1’s
thick pebble
they are certainly somewhat strong but their droprates are very good
I’ve been getting unlucky on the gear drop front then
Suppose my problem is just that infantry is a no go against them, dedicated anti infantry units which would work again the Raiders just bounce off of em
Those damned enforcers with AKs chew through even heavy tanks, and they have a lot more HP than expected
Feels counterintuitive
sturdy moat
you need to prioritize the right units
i'd rather kill the devastators, bombadiers and enforcers first
they're the ones that actually apply pressure
once the armor killers are down, take out the vehicles
it's not really about practice
it's just 'how much is he critting'
which is usually a lot
thick pebble
you need to prioritize the right units
I do, I should say that I’ve learned pretty handily how to take them down
Artillery and a marksman will knock out Bombadiers, Unmanned MGs sweep through chaff in the first and second rows, TKs knock out the vehicles, and super tanks block for the TKs and mop up the rest
My problem was that such an approach just isn’t particularly intuitive, that unmanned MGs are basically one of the few specialized anti infantry units which can handle them. If you use any infantry, even armored like Salamanders, they’ll get shredded
Reduced unit diversity, I suppose is my problem
This is a side tangent, but still
sturdy moat
you shouldn't have to reroll dn anymore
unit levels are high enough you can usually just go with bad runs
when did i say my buoys were dying?
i said i understand why it happens
cough
theres a level of possibility about ignoring bombardiers but it's usually a bad idea
sometimes they do waste turns
it's a bit dependent on the end user, really, sometimes it can be worth it to leave them if there's a lot of worse stuff
will need to reroll more often if that's the case tho
since they don't always do what you want
they probably arent ranked
dense pine
With what? Mine are all R6
sturdy moat
actually
tf am i saying
they shouldn't because that would be hostile to the end user
that's as simple as it gets
from a logic standpoint maybe, from a game design standpoint no
bn is riddled with terrible grindy choices and naval is really, really bad about it
but it is hostile, because you unlock buoys far before you can grind the gears you need to create them
you are sacrificing a lot of them specifically to do so
and if you can't repair them they get much worse
the issue is:
what
actual units
there's like two you're even able to use and the buoy adds a single one to that list
i'm starting to feel like you haven't actually fought the dn with the ideal strategy
the buoys should be dying because they are supposed to take hits
them eating depth charge means a ship is not
if you want to nerf buoy you need to make naval better
rather than specifically trying to nerf one of the only glue units that makes it at all bearable
then this suggestion is meaningless, because nerfing buoy right now is factually not a good idea
then why are you suggesting a nerf to it at all????
if you AGREE it's a bad idea
it's too late for that
people have already invested in it
this is the kind of change you need to make BEFORE releasing
because if the game is already out then people would've already sunk resources into the unit
and therefore, they will by default, have wasted their gears
bar christmas only happened due to extremely exceptional circumstances where the whole of naval was literally unplayable
dense pine
So instead of doing a boss fight for between 5-10 minutes with maybe a handful of resets. The process should just be prolonged for even more resets? I’m okay with longer fights I just think resetting for a long time for optimal RNG is super boring. The resetting is why I personally prefer the DN over the Kraken.
sturdy moat
you wouldn't be suggesting this at all if you saw what your reality was like
level 40 dreadnought was the worst thing i have and likely will ever do in this game
getting a single run took actual HOURS of real time
barely surviving isn't cheese
strong sail
Just to clear the air a bit: none of these replies are AI posts. They’re written...
Dinnae moments before hitting send on this
sturdy moat
buoy is doing exactly what it was designed to do
take hits
it sounds like you're saying it shouldn't exist at all
it's literally designed to be spammable
that's the whole point of it
the entry fee of producing it is the reason it's not
if it was full blocking and that mattered then you'd have a point
but as it stands literally every naval attack is indirect anyway
indirect means they shoot over full blocking
i get why you're thinking the way you are; it looks like it should be an analog for the portable wall
but in practice, naval is too different for it to be
almost every attack would ignore it even if it was full blocking
dense pine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x6V3rz68_A So this is my DN clear from two and a half weeks ago. I with mostly optimized damage on the DN minus the end. I only used two broadsides and two bites from the baby groupers to kill the subs. The middle buoy did not take a single critical hit or get hit by random depth charge, and only took 39 dmg from a sub torpedo. The left buoy took three crits and the right buoy took only one crit. After going through all of my DN fights with the buoy at R6, I have lost two out of three buoys once out of five fights. Surprisingly, the only other time where I only lost two out of three was when my buoys were R5 (I think). I think the only way to not lose them is have good bombard patterns that only focus on one checkered pattern, subs use their MG attacks, and getting very few crits. I want to know why the DN fight should yield less rewards because as of now, you are likely to lose 3-5 M10s, plus two, most likely three, buoys. This means the average DN fight with increased buoy repair costs would net you 2-6 gears and 0-7 bars, with a 5% drop rate for the Ironclad.
dense pine
You won't find me disagreeing with that. Bosses really should be good ways to farm specific T3 resources.
Teeth and skulls should get more uses. Kraken fights are basically trading bars for relatively useless stuff bar the very rare kraken tentacle.
glass furnace
Until we have more ways to get gears or rates for drops are slightly tweaked, I have to strongly disagree on this one
eternal ferry
distant ivy
Reading this thread reminded me why some ppl can’t be devs
royal dagger
Rage bait 😤 👊 💥 💥🤯🔥✊.
old rose
I’ve heard enough, make wimps cost chemical vials to heal!
eternal ferry
royal dagger
Me when I quote someone else.
eternal ferry
royal dagger
We both agree that naval has a m10 crutch problem, and nerfing buoy now would only make early naval even more hellish. Btw we haven't touch any naval's bosses yet and how much it would change the viability for f2p to fight those. It feels like you are so fixated on nerfing buoy, I still don't get why? We have much more pressing issues regarding balances (i.e tanks, storage ☠️)
eternal ferry
We both agree that naval has a m10 crutch problem, and nerfing buoy now would on...
Fr
Also
Gears are very hard to get
At this point you’re just punishing the f2p players for being poor
royal dagger
Just imagine yourself as f2p player that only have access to r1
Imagine their only r1 get crit and died because they cant afford to lose their buoy ( that costs gear to repair)
minor coral
We both agree that naval has a m10 crutch problem, and nerfing buoy now would on...
their reasons can be boiled down to: "portable wall costs it therefore buoy should cost it (ignore the differences between them)" and "I think the game should be more of a struggle for resources and more punishing than it already is" (I'm not so sure about the second one, but it's pretty much the only other reason I remember being able to discern from their arguements)
royal dagger
They are stuck in a predicament where they either lose a bar or a gear.
elder flame
skill issue tbh
royal dagger
Z2 head detected!
Honestly because naval has so many indirect way to damages you its not as useful as you think. It only acts as another target to hit compares to portable wall who blocks a lot more attack.
eternal ferry
So you don’t care that the game looses players?
I feel like this suggestion is the embodiment of these message
sturdy moat
I feel like this suggestion is the embodiment of these message
it's ragebait
eternal ferry
dense pine
You just mentioned yourself that naval doesn’t have many other viable defensive options. And your suggestion is that you should nerf the only viable option somehow?
Also I don’t even think many is the right word. There’s literally just the buoy.
dense pine
So nerf the buoy before the changes come. Meanwhile, naval is already more punishing for those who are lower leveled and/or have fewer M10s?? I get wanting reworks to old units after combat changes, but before? It’s just making the game more grindy for the sake of it.
Like I was around during the beta for the free bars. For anyone who started after the beta, navy is already starting off difficult with limited T3 resources at their level. Why make it harder for them?
dense pine
it's ragebait
If it is, I honestly commend this person’s efforts at this point.
strong sail
He’s using AI
minor coral
If it is, I honestly commend this person’s efforts at this point.
its almost certainly AI, there is no effort
strong sail
He doesn’t come up with 5 paragraph structured response to ur message in 45 seconds xD
dense pine
Yeah that’s fair
minor coral
they also just keep rehashing the same exact arguement more or less. Their counters just read as a jumbled or cut version of the original argument
or are a complete non-argument
You were never open to a conversation to begin with, your “counterarguments” if they could be called that were proof of that
elder flame
skill issue tbh
eternal ferry
He’s using AI
eternal ferry
Mods, add one of every subatomic particles to every atoms of this man’s balls
strong sail
gloomy ember
surprised a mod hasn't shut this thread down yet for degrading into a shitflinging contest
strong sail
^
gloomy ember
I mean I think it is a terrible idea that only serves to make an already bad front of the game even more grindy and tedious, and is not viable without a full rework of naval combat overall, but I am going to leave it at that.
eternal ferry
https://tenor.com/view/emoji-gif-25653232
Not your balls, his balls
eternal ferry
https://tenor.com/view/idk-gif-15015579893799503755
frank pawn
@kindred turtle how many m10s do you have? Screenshot?
frank pawn
I think this may be the biggest reason you want buoys nerfed lol
The thing is, you haven't experienced the suffering of the raptor class ships
If you had, you would instead request a rebalance of the Naval that includes this change
Not led with it
blazing swan
The requirement for tier 3 resources should be focused towards “building” and promoting forces. Play time invested acquiring t3 resources is out of balance. Sell nanos instead of hindering players ability to progress. A repair/heal mechanism during battle will make money and prevent frustration waiting,hoping,cussing and grinding for t3 resources.
elder flame
skill issue tbh
blazing swan
Idk, they are just floating junk lol. Increased repair cost makes them less appealing imo
elder flame
idk, ive been sitting on way too many gears and i just absolutely need something to spend them on
royal dagger
Thats you problem
elder flame
skill issue tbh
old rose
idk, ive been sitting on way too many gears and i just absolutely need something...
Ah, so it’s a “keep the rich rich and the poor poorer” ahh suggestion?
elder flame
Ah, so it’s a “keep the rich rich and the poor poorer” ahh suggestion?
yeah
blazing swan
Woo… a tradzy mech would be nice! I’ll give you a bouy lol
elder flame
royal dagger
Why dont you turn all your gear into a widget?
elder flame
why dont you just heal your buoys with one gear?
blazing swan
Can someone explain how to reply directly to another person. Not cyber literate
royal dagger
Can someone explain how to reply directly to another person. Not cyber literate
Hey
Hold their message
And press reply
Just kill your dexter 20 times and thats 100 gear gone
Easy right?
elder flame
but id rather spend it healing buoys tbh
royal dagger
Thank you!
Yay 🖐️
blazing swan
I was sinking ships! Blew extra on TK’s
royal dagger
If you want more encounters you can add me
zenith meadow
Alright, darlin’, let me lay it out plain as sweet tea for ya. 🍑
When them buoys only cost ya one gear to heal in Battle Nations, that’s actually a mighty fine deal. See, here’s why that’s so good:
🛠️ Cheap as chips to keep runnin’: If they get dinged up in a scrap, patchin’ ’em back together won’t cost ya much at all. That means ya don’t burn through all yer resources just keepin’ ‘em on the field.
🪖 Perfect lil’ shields: Those buoys ain’t there to kill nothin’ — they’re there to take hits. Enemies waste their turns poundin’ on ‘em instead of your big guns. Since they’re so cheap to fix, that’s a win for you every time.
⏱️ Buyin’ ya time: While them buoys are soakin’ up shots, your stronger troops can sit back and do the real damage. That one gear cost means you can keep this strategy goin’ fight after fight.
💰 Savin’ yer wallet: Rebuildin’ fancy units costs a whole heap more than just healin’ a buoy. So in the long run, you’re savin’ parts, nanites, and headaches.
So, sugar, it ain’t about the buoy winnin’ the battle — it’s about protectin’ the ones who will… and doin’ it without breakin’ the bank.
@flat badger @rose surge @obtuse arrow @tame barn
tame barn
^
old rose
This might have been the worst take in the history of the entire suggestions channel. And it spawned due to unproductive threads like these.
royal dagger
Thats the point
ebon bone
running a battle without an m10 and with just r1s and buoys is already miserable as it is for f2p players
royal dagger
Its supposed to be a stupid point
ebon bone
making the 2nd best thing weaker is just fcked
this is just 1st world country problems being suggested to a 3rd world country overall system
didn't help the fact that he has 10 m10s and can afford to not use a buoy
vivid tangle
Why is getting suppressed an issue for units that can't attack
Like, am I missing something here
native lava
Like, am I missing something here
What if they miss tanking an attack? 
vivid tangle
No for real why does it matter that the buoys can't be suppressed?
ebon bone
Why is getting suppressed an issue for units that can't attack
it's cause they brought it up as point to an irrelevant topic
vivid tangle
Come to think of it
ebon bone
ebon bone
nerf buoys but make m10s steel only
royal dagger
Naval need rebalancing
ebon bone
royal dagger
Naval has a m10 crutch
ebon bone
give me m10s as only costing gears and steel
and ill fight for this idea
to the death
vivid tangle
I like ignorables being some of the best units in the game.
Like, in terms of economics
Plays into the whole "actually use your brain" strategy
ebon bone
Plays into the whole "actually use your brain" strategy
i dont need my brain if i can fill up the grid with m10s
royal dagger
😂
vivid tangle
I was only confused as to why anyone would seriously argue the point. If it's just a joke argument then you don't need to take it seriously.
sturdy moat
Can sandbags be immune too?
actually every defense after portable walls was made unsuppressable
median spruce
I mean the walls cost is proportional to the cost it takes to build them in the first place though
Buoys only cost 5 gears at minimum rank which doesn’t meet the same threshold
bitter oasis
i think a good argument against this is that naval is already very hard for a lot of people
literally every battleship unit takes bars for repair
and lots of steel
buoys i think are a good relief off the pressure of unit loss and repair costs
vivid tangle
People have been discussing a naval rework. If it were to happen and it were to include refactoring of the naval units, then gear cost for buoys might be justified
Even if that were the case however, I'm fine with ignorables being overpowered
Or rather, economic
They take up unit slots and do nothing except not die easily. Plenty of units do that and can still attack.
bitter oasis
id rather there be a hardcore element to battlenations like naval tbh
very cut throat
maybe rework naval and add something else if people want
vivid tangle
I disagree but won't belabor the point.
vivid tangle
I think there should be challenges for people who like them
bitter oasis
maybe rework naval and add something else if people want
.
and i know theres boss strikes but i mean a single player cut throat sorta thing
bitter oasis
not a needless challenge
vivid tangle
Can you beat kraken f2p
It's been done
Basically just R1's instead of M10s.
Besides that, same deal
elder flame
skill issue tbh
merry marsh
Been mentioned by basically everyone already but this is a terrible change that is purely anti-player and being packaged as “for consistency” when that consistently is directly harmful to the player base.
The suggestion fails to consider that bringing this parity to the buoy would disproportionately impact players who haven’t bought M10’s as they are the players who most rely on the buoy to clear encounters to begin with.
patent cobalt
this would just ruin early naval players lol. Gears early on are insanely hard to get, and simply crafting them is a lot of strain on the earlier naval players.