Lazychanger - A 300mm V2 toolchanger

[naive coral]

Yea eye balling seams good enough

[wind gorge]

If your z is almost touching the ball it's easy to see the curvature difference on each side for me

[naive coral]

Started working on a cable management backplate that will fit my hardware

still need a way to mount the flat spring steel from the umbilical and split the design into two parts for printing

[sour crest]

consider making it rotatable

@nimble grail

[naive coral]

Why would i?

[sour crest]

^ cekim's design

[naive coral]

oh thats neat! any chance there is cad for it available?

[sour crest]

no clue where, which is why i pinged @nimble grail haha

[naive coral]

id love to mod it to make it fit my connectors 😅

ah haha

[sour crest]

but yeah the fact that they rotate means less cable memory

they also did rotatable umbilicals on the toolheads too

genuinely so cool. They absolutely have THE BEST cable management for sc

[rugged juniper]

@naive coral what current are you running your motors at?

[naive coral]

1.7A for XYZ

[naive coral]

Well would ya look at that, its finally doing its thing without me intervening!

[hexed cape]

Seems good

[solid belfry]

Looks like bondtech was able to get the last 2 extruders I need in stock so I am waiting for those to arrive. Jokes on you I already have my 6 chubes even though you are way farther along lol

[naive coral]

awesome, im excited to see your machine printing

[solid belfry]

Man, yours is awesome. The papillo extruder that is integrated into the anthead looks awesome

Umbilicals are going to be a pain

[naive coral]

Thx! I hope that papileo and especially the integrated version dont create problems in the future

But im gonna test papileo as much as possible before i build more toolheads

[naive coral]

It already is lol

[solid belfry]

Yeah i have not even designed the umbilicals on my toolhead yet

I am thinking of mounting it to the lgx lites

[fair spindle]

I am going to end up bringing the cable back to the bowden and sleeving them together

[naive coral]

Well i installed tmc autotune and my z motors sound like they are dying

its less bad with tmc autotune set to performance for z but still noticeably louder then x and y

[naive coral]

thats actually really neat!

and like not even a bad idea 🤔

[fair spindle]

We will see how it works in practice. I got the toolhead boards soldered up over the weekend. I hope to sleeve one this weekend to see how it works. I have time. Hotends arent shipping yet 🙂

[sour crest]

guys

just use N3MI's old cable management clips

https://www.printables.com/model/1382188-ebb36-wwg2-mount-w-spring-steel-slot-for-stealthch
this is what i'm using alongside the terminator, clips, and the old backplate

[fair spindle]

No top hat, no extended vertical extrusions. Every mm matters for me.

[naive coral]

So my current plan for making z a lot quiet is to

• Replace the z metal motor mounts with pc pbt gf parts and
• Replace the 5160s with 2209s and order tmc 2240s .
  Ideally i also wanna order some more quieter motors

[sour crest]

you need quiet Z?

and autotune quiet isn't good enough?

is it bec toolchanging Z is loud- g2zxl has been far louder for me lol

The moment you install insulated metal panels w cork or neoprene spacers, all of your sound issues are gonna get cut by 80%

so i'd say just ignore it for now and work on it later

[naive coral]

autotune makes the motors sound like when you put sand into a gearbox lol

its better without autotune then with outtune for z in slient and performance mode lol

[sour crest]

weird haha, I love my g2zxl motors in performance and quiet mode

but yeah put the panels on. Maybe you have the wrong motors selected or smth

i wonder if anyone has a quad NEMA23 AWD gantry on a 350 v2...

[naive coral]

i think its either thouse motors in combination with 5150s and/or with 48v

[sour crest]

i'm on 48v, so it can't be too loud. Also running 2160s not 5160s ig

[naive coral]

and maybe them beeing mounted to metal mounts doenst improve the situation

[sour crest]

well some motors handle 48v better than others

[naive coral]

what motors are you using for Z?

[sour crest]

cnc g2zxl here, no doubts

stock g2zxl motors, so obv diff than you

[naive coral]

ah so differnt motors then

[sour crest]

yeah fs, idk what motors ur running

[naive coral]

differnt motors differnt sound level

[sour crest]

u got audio of ur Z?

[naive coral]

the stock formbot one for z

[sour crest]

what if smth's just misaligned on 1 of them

[sour crest]

oh bro

just get some OMC ones and you'll be cooking with quiet or performance mode

[naive coral]

yea im thinking the same lol

[sour crest]

i'm going to try quiet mode 100mm/s Z eventually

😂

(ON G2ZXL TOO)

[sour crest]

btw i'm actually getting similar toolchange times as you on g2zxl with 48v motors and 2160 krakens

[naive coral]

https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/de/4pcs-nema-17-hochtemperatur-schrittmotor-55ncm-77-93oz-in-55mm-rundwelle-isolationsklasse-h-180-c-4-17hs19-2504s-h-v1

[sour crest]

pushing the motors to i think 1A or 1.2A?

[naive coral]

guess im gonna give omc some money

[sour crest]

ah yeah the standard monolith gantry motors 😂

[naive coral]

yep

[sour crest]

if you wante dto go crazy

you could do NEMA23 on all motors

😂

[naive coral]

ah ... n.o.

[sour crest]

my next printer if i ever start one might be a 8x nema23 printer with AWD NEMA23 v2

[naive coral]

before you get side track go and see that your current machines actually works :P

[fair spindle]

Side questing side quests is a dangerous exercise. For the wallet and the sanity

[naive coral]

Guess il be ditching the 5160s and 48V in favour of 2240s at 24v

Going to install the other moons motors that i have here and printing replacment parts in plastic right now as well

[wind gorge]

2240 gang!

[naive coral]

yep! my trident has them and they are great

i kinda wish the v2 had the z motors inside the chamber lol

[wind gorge]

May I scope creep you on 36v? :)

[naive coral]

not right now

but im sure il scope creep one day

[wind gorge]

For real. My toolchanges are too loud for overnight printing

Considering moving dock

[naive coral]

yea it sucks a lot

i can hear it across my apartment and i very much assume that my neighbours can hear it too and just havent said anything yet

compared to my v2 my trident is dead silent lol

[wind gorge]

Subwoofer feet helped a ton for z reverberations especially but still the higher pitched noises are all there for me

[naive coral]

Subwoofer feet? never heared of them

[wind gorge]

Wheeeeeee sound

[naive coral]

yeaaa

horrible

[wind gorge]

Oh yea ! I got the svs soundpath feet on mine #1363336403882348624 message

Screwed it in with the stock feet screws and reprinted those feet stl to have no lip

[naive coral]

ah yea that sounds like something i should maybe install

[hexed cape]

wonder how loud G2ZXL are on fast moves

[naive coral]

the svs once arent available but i orderd thouse -> https://www.amazon.de/Dynavox-Silikon-Elastomer-Plattenspieler-Resonanzdämpfer-3M-Klebefläche-Schwarz/dp/B0CF25CDX1/

the shoud be doing the same thing

[wind gorge]

Yea it looks similar enough

[naive coral]

i hope that the 32mm diameter is enough

[wind gorge]

I printed some plastic coasters? So I can still slide the printer around lol. It was too grippy

[naive coral]

50mm would work as well if where to adjust the printed part

[hexed cape]

That a 300?

[naive coral]

bigger should mean less vibrations getting into the floor .. in theory

[naive coral]

yea with the difference that they are glued and not screwed 😅

[hexed cape]

Those feet look far less bulkier than my solution 😄

[naive coral]

guess im cancelling and ordering the 50mm once and altering the printed parts

[wind gorge]

350!

[hexed cape]

The video perspective makes it look so tiny tho 😄

[wind gorge]

It's taller than my workbench table by a couple inches, probably a bit too big for me

no tophat stealthchanger would be so nice but no one has figured it out yet (without big sacrifices)

[naive coral]

@fair spindle just might (by necesity )

[fair spindle]

It is the plan 🙂

[wind gorge]

Ping me when you get started! :3

[naive coral]

but you are cheating by only having two toolheads

[sour crest]

i still don't have my 6 tools built. Waiting on my berserker vindr fans to get here

god 3010 axial 24V fans need more love.

wait.. i'm scope creeping again but 40mm fan compat maybe on the rb goliath???

ah nvm absolutely zero chance LOL

tempted to shove a 3020 fan in it and just have it stick out. would look really funny

[fair spindle]

I did ditch the AWD, so I could technically add two more

[sour crest]

wait are you building a 300mm?

i'm on monolith sheet metal AWD on 350 and can do 6 toolheads.

[fair spindle]

350, but I am using only a single MCU, passive toolhead boards

[sour crest]

cool, but if using monolith you should ask @thorny spruce for where their crossbar stl is. I can fit 6 normal docks with 0 issues

you can go AWD and still fit all 6 tools, idk if you're using FT FT or not tho

[fair spindle]

I am using monolith, but a restriction of using only one MCU is that there are only 10 steppers total. 4 for Z, 2 for A/B, leaves 4 possible toolheads. Its not a size thing 🙂

[thorny spruce]

https://github.com/DraftShift/ModularDock/tree/main/UserMods/MikeYankeeOscarBeta/Monolith_Crossbar

https://github.com/DraftShift/DoorBuffer/tree/main/UserMods/MikeYankeeOscarBeta/Doorbuffer_Adapters

[thorny spruce]

throw toolheadboards or another mainboard in a hexabackpack or something?

[fair spindle]

I AM going to use that crossbar though. That will work well.

[fair spindle]

nope. 1 MCU and only 1 MCU 🙂

[thorny spruce]

any specific reason for that?

[fair spindle]

partially just to do it. The other is that I really am tired of toolhead boards. Mainly just to do it. Honestly, I only need 2 toolheads for my use case anyway. Why make things more complicated than they need to be 🙂

[thorny spruce]

ah fair enough. ngl it feels a little wasteful to only use the thermistor ports and drivers and one heaterport for the bed of the main mcu 😅

also cheaper that way. only real pain would be more long wires to deal with for the umbilicals but that's not really a big problem.
if you change your mind and want more toolheads you can always add another board later

[fair spindle]

It is 4040 and inverted. Not long runs at all really. I don't think it is wasteful. I am using MORE ports on the board , so I am getting my money's worth

[thorny spruce]

ah doooomed 😄 i meant using toolheadboards is a bit wasteful*

[fair spindle]

Oh, I read it completely backwards. LOL. If you want to watch while I struggle -> https://discord.com/channels/460117602945990666/1458580085643677839

[sour crest]

it works AMAZING!

And that makes a lot of sense, sry

[sour crest]

esp with a btt kraken.

[sour crest]

you're awesome for making this for me/you almost 11 months ago 😄

can't believe my printer still isn't done lol

at least i'm in the mood and have been for a while to get on with it and finish it 😄

[thorny spruce]

hehe. im in the same boat. started my voron years ago.. and i keep finding ways to make it "not finished"

[acoustic lake]

I hope you integrated the papilio legend design or you need to keep up

[naive coral]

nope but ive seen the new version

but im hoping that this version is good enough and will last long enough

[acoustic lake]

Yeah I think so, just wanted to give you some fomo 😂

[sour crest]

@naive coral my parts are finally here

very exciting

[naive coral]

You still have time to beat me .. im waiting for parts and im sick again and i technically have not fully printed a part just yet.

[sour crest]

Geez. hope you feel better

Also, i completely destroyed my gantry wiring and z bilical parts so

you still have time to get a fully functional printer before me lol

besides i have to rebuild 5 more tools 🙂

[naive coral]

Oh my haha

Onlything thats stopping me, other then beeing sick, is parts to quiet z down a bit

[sour crest]

for the next few days i'll be building up 5 more tools

while i wait for all my e-bay mounting parts and 8 pin 22awg conductors

[naive coral]

So i switched z motors and it feels like its a bit quieter

also printing parts for nudge right now cause sexbolt is giving me Probe samples exceed samples_toleranceproblems

[wind gorge]

Oh I got that too, check your bottom backplate screws again with paper test

Could be also the probe might be loose

[naive coral]

wdym? 🤔

whatr bottom backplate screw and what paper test?

ah

mhm yea would be worth a check good idea

[wind gorge]

The bottom screws that thread into the plastic yea

[naive coral]

yea yea guess il grab some paper

should the paper drag?

[wind gorge]

Start at no drag, then tiny steps until it drags, and make sure both sides are evenly done

[naive coral]

well you where right

did the paper test thingy and now its working well

[wind gorge]

Yay :)

[naive coral]

First actually finished part looks pretty good

There is only one print issue where im not sure what happend

Pa and em need tuning ofc as well but the tool offset in xy and z seam perfect.

[wind gorge]

Yay great work

[naive coral]

Ive got a very long road ahead of me before the parts are actually useful but its a start!

And also ive switched from 5160s to 2209s and the difference is INSANE 😅

[wind gorge]

Lol how so? And voltage?

[naive coral]

5160s are just loud as hell lol

and yea z will be slower but i cant go that fast either way without waking up the whole building

ah and voltage 24v ofc

[wind gorge]

Subjectively I thought the 2240s were 20-30% quieter than even the 2209s at 24v. And slightly quieter than that at 36v

So you might like those :3

[naive coral]

my trident is already running 2240s at 36v and they are

[sour crest]

i'm just confused

omc 2504s on quiet mode on 48v are just silent for me

as long as I don't drive Z at 200mm/s 😂

[naive coral]

Yea well you want to do that if you want fast tool changes

[sour crest]

well at 200mm/s with 9:1 ratio they're loud but not louder than the gantry motors so

[naive coral]

with 2209s z motors are pretty quiet, with 5160s they are unbearably loud

[sour crest]

https://github.com/MakerBogans/docs/wiki/TMC-Driver-Tuning

if you have time i'd try this for 5160s

autotune isn't the best

[naive coral]

im aware of it

also tried tmc autotune

but nothing will convince 5160s to not be horribly loud

instead of messing with software il just use drivers that are known to be quiet :))

[sour crest]

maybe just increase microsteps

what Z microsteps are you running?

if you run like 64 microsteps it actually silences everything ime

[naive coral]

ive tried

but ive already switched to 2209s and its miles better

[thorny spruce]

idk.. they're not that loud. mine are much more quiet than my partcooling fan 😂

[naive coral]

maybe i am doing something wrong but z was unbearably loud before and its almost wisper quiet now

[thorny spruce]

joke is i have a 600w cpap fan for parts cooling now 😝
mine is loud too. not crazy loud tho. i run all default 16ms with stealthchop disabled

[naive coral]

on your toolchanger? 🤔

[thorny spruce]

yup. #1224045810442829824 message

still working on the toolhead for it tho 😅

[naive coral]

pretty cool!

[solid belfry]

What have you got so far?

[solid belfry]

I have just been doing cfd and duct design because I had it working with COM but the ducts lost a mega amount of x travel

[thorny spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/puppet-red-ball-soon-gif-13188418

[naive coral]

Installed some vibration isolation feet witch makes the printer real wobbly but they seam to work great!

[wind gorge]

it's a happy wobble :)

[naive coral]

very much

[rugged juniper]

@naive coral I ordered a new frame from misumi that's gonna look a lot like your frames

[wind gorge]

how much reduction of noise?

[naive coral]

i dont have more then "noticable" 😅

[naive coral]

ey nice! Joining the 4040 cult as well ey? hehe

[rugged juniper]

4040 verticals, 2040 horizontals, regular gantry with carbonara x. Door will be clicky clack with 2040 verticals to be correct width for the 4040 verticals

[naive coral]

awesome!

thats gonna be a killer frame!

[rugged juniper]

Or monolith door for a bit, idk

First time drilling and tapping my own, will be fun

[naive coral]

then use my extrusion drill jig -> https://www.printables.com/model/1586502-voron-aluminum-extrusion-blind-joint-drill-tool

[rugged juniper]

I downloaded it already yeah, but I swear the f695 dont fit

[naive coral]

:|

might need to open the hole up a bit more in fusion

[rugged juniper]

No, too big

Maybe I grabbed a different one that is similar and not actually yours

[naive coral]

well im gonna print them again on my trident and see whats up

could be that the shrinakge wasnt tuned on the machine i printed mine with

[rugged juniper]

I also printed scarecrow's little drill jig and it came out great

I can show you a pic tomorrow of my prints

[naive coral]

kk but thx for letting me know 👍

and for the door just use metal hinges and the clicky clack latch!

[rugged juniper]

As I said, I might have grabbed similar ones

[naive coral]

works a treat and is super sturdy

[hexed cape]

I'm thinking 4040 all the way and do 4040 L shaped so it fits doors

But don't know how I'd figure out z drive

[naive coral]

good choice!

im gonna convert yall to 4040 loves in no time

Also i need to figure this wobbly toolhead out

no matter what i do i cant remove the backlash

[hexed cape]

It will be a whole new build cuz otherwise I wouldn't have any working printer

[naive coral]

tbh swapping your current machine to 4040 is pretty easy

build the 4040 frame and then migrate all the hardware over to the new frame

you can use all the original hardware including printed parts

[wind gorge]

I like my 4040 verticals. it let me fit the panels and door in the outer 20mm :3

[hexed cape]

That the monolith slm clamp?

[naive coral]

that? yep! works a treat!

[naive coral]

So it looks like the bottom bushing tolerance is really really bad. Ordered a couple packs of replacements to try and find a bushing thats really tight. Gonna be a couple of weeks until they arrive sadly.

Im also gonna check if Misumi has precision bushings for sale cause the once from AliExpress are all over the place when it comes to tolerances! A good source for high accuracy precision bushings and pings would be great.

Misumi does have bushings MDZB4-6 or SF-10406 but they are just sliced and not milled witch aint great for tolerances

@fair spindle you might wanna check your carriage as well!

[hexed cape]

At least it ain't the linear carriage that would wobble

[naive coral]

yea lol the bushings and pins are fixable

im really thinking about ordering bushing and ground pins from misumi to test cause the cheap aliexpress stuff is hot garbage for any kind of tollerance :/

[hexed cape]

Yea

[naive coral]

Thats the play before and after the bushing swap 😅

There is still some play, comming primarily from the top bushings

[hexed cape]

Damn

Technically

Could I use the changer mechanism for tap instead of using the classic tap with linear rail? Wouldn't it be more rigid?

Or is the linear rail one still better?

[solid belfry]

the cnc carriage flexes a lot

[thorny spruce]

yup. better than linear rail tap for sure.

[thorny spruce]

sure that's not the rail moving ever so slightly?

[thorny spruce]

alix stuff can be hit&miss.

you could try some of those igus bushings. just avoid the ptfe coated ones, they wear quickly.

[naive coral]

Yea seams like it! Good to know guess i might order some from igus as well

I feel like getting good bushings and pins is really required for this machine to worl well

[thorny spruce]

it helps.

back in the day people struggled to get good enough prints so slightly misaligned skewed pins and bushings kinda helped "fill" the tolerance gap. preload helps but not end all be all, and limited because you couldn't run too strong mags because of tap.

but now people are printing way more accurate parts in more exotic materials, so better tolerances are needed.

and now that beacon/carto is more useable, tap is no longer a hard requirement, one could use much much stronger magnets and have lot tighter fit.

[naive coral]

good to know 👍

and i guess i need to get beacon up and running and use strong magnets wherever possible

[thorny spruce]

for some of the backplates you can mod them to double up on mags without breaking compatibility with the cnc shuttle.

[sour crest]

Damn, that's good to know

i don't think i'll have too many tolerance issues with the CNC shuttle + good tolerance pins

esp with SLS.

[naive coral]

have you done offset calibration yet? cause if you havent then it will show there!

[solid belfry]

My ldo shuttle flexes a lot at the top pins

I made my own shuttle to fix the issue but I still have to print it

I still need to make new ducts that attach to it so I can fix the awful center of mass

[thorny spruce]

a lot compared to stock stealthburner flex?

[solid belfry]

Not quite as much as that but still more than most well thought out printed toolheads

Let alone slm

I will eventually do a test where I bend it but I don’t want to ruin it yet

[thorny spruce]

hmm. it could use with some beefing up 🤔 actually a lot of things i'd want to change on it now. looking forward to seeing your take on it 🙂
keeping it compatible with scv1.1?

[solid belfry]

It is compatible except for opto tap which i am relocating but i will do a normal version

[solid belfry]

It is made to work with monolith belt clamp and it is 3mm thinner while at the same time being 9x more stiff

According to simulations on the top pins

[thorny spruce]

sounds promising 🙂

have you done any testing with fatter magnets?

[solid belfry]

I have not. I tested magnets on the bottom with shims but it was so aggressive that I wouldn’t trust docking

Like 3kg

[thorny spruce]

hehe. time to graduate to metal docks 😂

[solid belfry]

I don’t even have proper docks designed and I don’t know how much torque the z drives have

I would like to use pins for the docks

Since i am using Chube conducts I probably am going to mill them

[thorny spruce]

kitchenweight test could yield some ballpark numbers.
must be more than 3kg

[solid belfry]

I have a picture of doing it on a scale somewhere

[thorny spruce]

i had a design i worked on for for universal docks usikg holes in the backplate "feet" and long 3mm pins. worked ok, veery simple.

[solid belfry]

1.1kg without the tool for the 3 magnets

[thorny spruce]

i'm gonna do conduction, fins in the toolhead and active cooling for it. just in case.

[solid belfry]

Vs 630g

[solid belfry]

Yeah i am doing fins as well but they might have to go when I am tuning center of mass

I have like 8x the surface area that i need right now

[thorny spruce]

bespoke to specific extruder then right?

[thorny spruce]

anything worth doing is worth overdoing 😂

[solid belfry]

I am going lgx lite. I might do a repack but I prefer to use lgx lite or wwg2 which are both super heavy

[thorny spruce]

i redesigned a sherpa mini to make it narrower. only shifted extruder up a few mm. wanted to stick with bmg.

[solid belfry]

I am not a fan of sherpa mini but if you want to keep opto tap it is the best bet because you can use a small motor with it with gear reduction and it is overall really compact

[thorny spruce]

that, and the availability of decent all metal ridga.

[solid belfry]

Yeah I still wasn’t super happy with it even after bondtech ridga

[thorny spruce]

how come?

[solid belfry]

It still wasn’t as consistent as orbiter v2 which I would consider the bottom of the bar with my farm

[thorny spruce]

idk. i've had some issues with o2.5, they are ok but grind a little and are annoying to feed 😑

[solid belfry]

I have not used the 2.5 yet. None of my 2.0s grind. You might want to return yours

That is weird

I agree with the annoying to feed part

[sour crest]

i don't have a functional gantry! 😂

[thorny spruce]

nah, probably just need to adjust and chamfer the nipple thing. just something i never needed to on the sherpas.
smaller gears so not the same radius problem.

[rugged juniper]

can confirm I printed a similar one that was not actually yours

[naive coral]

Got a little something in the mail today!

Plan is to mount this in the ebay using this mount and connect all toolhead boards directly to it since the cables are more then long enough

[sour crest]

Cool!

I modded the BTT CEB CAnbus backpack to fit

[rugged juniper]

This link is broken now, did you take it down for adjustment or something?

[naive coral]

yea gona correct it and put it up again

[sour crest]

@naive coral i'm so tempted to start working on a full cad of my printer

like complete complete cad

you should do one too 😂

[naive coral]

i already got one 🤔

[sour crest]

wtfffff

that includes all tools & electronics?

that's wild

[naive coral]

building a custom printer without cad is .. not the greated idea lol

[sour crest]

i can't ever get mates to work in solidworks

[sour crest]

eh, having individual cad is enough imo

[naive coral]

kinda .. tools not cause that would not help me and just make fusion more of a pain

[solid belfry]

See, where you are smart is that you have one big cad

I have the frame in one assembly, the gantry in another, the toolhead in another ebay layout on my drafting table and z drives not even finished

[naive coral]

the full cad wasnt that helpfull 😅

[sour crest]

this is what i have 😂

[fair spindle]

Planning on finally belting the gantry on sunday, I will take a look then. I have only played with it on the bench currently. Thanks for the heads up!

[sour crest]

you got the spacer right

that i shipped out a while back

[fair spindle]

Yep! Thanks!

[thorny spruce]

having full cad saves a bunch of irl trial and error. easier to measure thrice cut once 😁

[naive coral]

for sure!

[naive coral]

im also gonna order the once from misumi and maybe they are a lot better in the tolerance department

i sadly dont have accurate tools to measure internal diameter of such small parts accuratly

gonna order a micrometer to measure the pins next month so i can start atleast somewhere

I just need to figure out why layer bonding is poor. already done a successful offset calibration but either the values are no good or the values arent used correctly.

[wind gorge]

can you try a side by side print of those two and see if it squished evenly?

[naive coral]

will do!

[naive coral]

id send you a picture but T1 first layer didnt even stick

so i assume T1 z offset is fully wrong

[wind gorge]

yea seems like its off by a lot then..

[naive coral]

but im not sure how to get it better, got the value from the z endstop test

[wind gorge]

you could manually dial it in by changing the z gcode offset in t1.cfg or try to fix whatever issue is happening during your sexprobe routine

[naive coral]

yea thing is z offset for T0 seams to be slightly to close to the bed

and T1 seams to be way to far from the bed

not sure what changes between the two toolheads using the same sexprobe that the values are that much differnt

[wind gorge]

for T0 z I always change the main z offset number in t0.cfg instead of the gcode z, cause all of the gcode offsets are supposed to be relative to T0

[naive coral]

yea same... ive got it both set in the probe_multiplexer section

and it beeing 0.5mm differnt seams a lot since they are both printed from basically the same stls 😅

i even checked cad already and according to that the z offset should in theory be 0

[wind gorge]

ohh your z_offset should = 0 for every tool other than t0

everything is relative to t0 so you should have 0 for z offset in the other tools

[naive coral]

oh i just put the value in that the offset calibration provided for T1 😅

[naive coral]

like this?

[naive coral]

👍

[wind gorge]

yep looks good! I put mine here

[wind gorge]

oops I originally typoed this msg to the opposite of what I meant.. fixed now

[naive coral]

tried again and the T1 nozzle is trying to engrave the build plate 😅

[wind gorge]

uhh hmmm

[naive coral]

maybe there is a difference with how tool_probe and probe_multiplexer works

think il ping Contomo again cause im just kinda out of ideas 😅

[wind gorge]

ah yea I'm not sure the differences for probe_multiplexer

I got confused by it so I wanted to wait for someone to document it first, or until contomo forces me to do it with obsolecence 😆

[naive coral]

but like other then the tool offsets the printer is working really well

single nozzle prints with T0 are

[sour crest]

i rattle the wiring a bit and the whole hexa turns off

oh turns out the usb c cable was bad

use a good one for urs jakob 😂

but yeah i flashed katapult / klipper on it and it works great!

the additional features are nice. hot-swapping toolheads is now possible thanks to the switches on the back, it doesn't break anything I've tested it

[naive coral]

good to know 👍

[naive coral]

So the nudge that my trident printed seams a bit .. skewed wtf

[thorny spruce]

time to recalibrate 😂

[naive coral]

reprinted it in asa and its dead on accurate 🤔

idk what the f happend with that print

[thorny spruce]

weird.. was it pcpbtcf/gf? that's supposed to be more dimensionally accurate than asa 🤯

[naive coral]

treed pc pbt gf

maybe i deformed it when removing it from the bed 🤔

[hexed cape]

This is from Rosa3d pc-pbt-gf

Dunno how this filament blend handles fast temp change

I want to print with it too but not sure I'm capacity of handling it

[naive coral]

oh that is warped to hell 😅

my trident handels pc pbt just fine (basically everything in this machine is printed from it, even the backplates)

ive never seen a part skewed that badly before

[hexed cape]

Also, there a big difference between CF/GF PC-PBT?

[naive coral]

no idea 😅

also pc pbt filaments really arent comparable since each manufacturers formulars will be very differnt

[hexed cape]

I believe that's the case too

Other options are Extrudr and 3DO

[naive coral]

i havent heared anything good about the 3do one

i personally can recommend the treed pc pbt gf and addnorth pc ht lcf (with is also a pcb cf filament)

there is also another that im testing right now thats also pretty good but not public just yet

[hexed cape]

And polymaker unfortunately makes only non fill PC-PBT

What your parts made of? Given you able to print pc-pbt-gf

[naive coral]

either treed pc pbt gf or the not yet public pc pbt gf 😅

[hexed cape]

Huh

I meant what's the printer, you print this blend on, made of

[naive coral]

ah .. im printing on #1317580899184807976 message

[hexed cape]

If I'd be able to print it too when I got abs parts

[naive coral]

this machine isnt able to print more then pla just yet

[hexed cape]

Damn that looks like Tartarus

[naive coral]

yea haha

[hexed cape]

Them titans locked inside

[naive coral]

its my hot and spicy machine (and also the most reliable one ive build so far)

[hexed cape]

So no pc-pbt-gf printing for me lol

[naive coral]

the add north pc ht lcf prints in a 60c chamber if you print slow with zero fan

[hexed cape]

I'm glad if I hit 53C

[naive coral]

add a couple of blankets over your machine and your golden

[hexed cape]

Next option would be petcf then, annealing it in an air fryer

Lol

[naive coral]

yea that works well as well

just be ready for some trial and error till you figure shrinkage out

[hexed cape]

Hmm, interesting that treed don't include a figure for chamber temperature

[naive coral]

I designed a new basepalte for the mellow sexbolt to stop it from tilting when calibrating probe z offset

The bolt still needs to be cut but im going todo that tomorrow once #1317580899184807976 has printed out a proper (and hopefully good) screw cutting jig

[naive coral]

So i ran calibrate_tool_offset a couple of times and other then T1 still erroring out with Probe sample exceed samples-tolerance the z offest for T0 seams to be very steady now. Between all 3 runs the T0 z offset has a delta of 0.01mm witch is very good and wildly differnt compared to before!

[wind gorge]

Oh wild is the stock mounting inconsistent?

[naive coral]

Either that or it needs fo settle in for z offset calibration to work reliably

It the pressure from the toolhead pressing down on it presses the entire probe down od something like that

[sour crest]

i thought it mounts normally to the side of the extrusion

confused

[naive coral]

Yea and i always had issues with it mounting that way

[sour crest]

could you send me the stl for this?>

[naive coral]

yea let me test mine first and then il send you the step file (or just publish them on printables lol) later today

the base plate alone aint enough. also needs to be mounted using both sides screws - printing that part right now

and im also gonna print both parts from pc pbt gf later cause stiffer is better here

i might also replace the stock thread cutting screws with m2(.5) screws and heatset inserts

[sour crest]

thanks!

[naive coral]

ideally i would replace the entire top part with a single piece part but this should work just as well

cant be bothered and i didnt find the file for it

[sour crest]

thankssss

[sour crest]

oh it's the standard sexbolt by hartk

[naive coral]

yea the standard sexbolt by hartk sold by mellow

they did not just injection mold the hartk files cause the included sleeve for example is (as far as im aware) not a thing that hartk included

[sour crest]

ah fair enough

[naive coral]

Works well so far!

@sour crest -> https://www.printables.com/model/1612301-mellow-sexballsexbolt-relocation-for-a-voron-v24

ugh i should switch the trident to print the parts from pc pbt gf but i .. cant be bothered so asa it is 😆

[naive coral]

ah well im reprinting them from pc pbt right now

[sour crest]

https://www.emberprototypes.com/products/cxc

[naive coral]

even with that you still need to calibrate the z offset and gcode z offset

[sour crest]

yes i'm saying this might be good for XY at least

Z should be much easier

i do really like ur sexball mount tho, getting the parts printed

[naive coral]

na for xy sexbolt is more then good enough

[wind gorge]

Huh my z for all tools was pretty much perfect with sexball and the default mounting

It should be just as good as klicky

[sour crest]

i'm using a pretty normal sexball, not the mellow one

maybe that's the difference?

[naive coral]

yea idk why im having issues

[wind gorge]

Just checked and mine is the mellow one from the github aff link

[naive coral]

yea same

[sour crest]

mine is just custom sexball

in sls pa12 c arriage

[naive coral]

Watching it do its thing is kinda really cool

and it again failed :/

i didnt find the extra bag of bushings that i ordered some time ago so i need to wait for the bushings to show up

also gonna order a micrometer next month

cause i feel like tolerances are the cause of all my issues here - no matter how i change the preload on the backplate its always just as bad :/

[sour crest]

SLS PA12!

SLS PA12!

you want the normal PA12, or maybe GF.

But not the tough

SLS PA12!

just try it on one backplate.

maybe two to get the discount

also @naive coral which m5 threaded rod did you use for sexball?

mine i sourced a while back from draftshift's own ali link has a damn groove on the bottom, which makes sexball alignment really annoyhing.

[naive coral]

that wont fix shitty bushing / pin tolerances no? 🤔

but im keeping what i have now and swap to @solid belfry madness

[solid belfry]

I am working on it. I need to move the COM back 2mm

[naive coral]

youve got time

[solid belfry]

it is centered in x and z

[naive coral]

its not like i already have my chube compacts lmao

im just gonna play with the two antheads i have rigth now

and save up for the inevitable extremely expensive slm order lol

[solid belfry]

Well I found my issue. That is definately NOT 158g

[naive coral]

possible 😆

but it seams not no

[solid belfry]

Somehow it went from 55 to 158 by just adding hardware lol

I have something in there wrong

[sour crest]

it will improve it lol, but yeah i'm also switching to hank madness eventually

anyways @naive coral i really need to know what dowel pin you used for the sexball, the draftshift design bom link is dead

[naive coral]

ugh the one from the draftshit link 😅

let me find it

[sour crest]

😂

[naive coral]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003783080786.html?

[sour crest]

oh dear

so does your sexball also have a bottom pin that has a flathead on it

[naive coral]

_ _
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005159693298.html?

[naive coral]

yea the pin has a little flathead slid on the none threaded side

[sour crest]

well yeah that's our issue

[naive coral]

but im gonna cut the pin short in the future either way

[sour crest]

when that pin bottom aligns with the d2f switch that's down there

the little micro pin

[naive coral]

mhm

[sour crest]

it makes the switch mushy and also drops down a little

[naive coral]

but why does it error out on T1 on the every same side 😅

[sour crest]

i was thinking of filling that groove with epoxy or adding a circle shim there

[naive coral]

if it slid where the problem then it would fail randomly everywhere

[naive coral]

cutting it short seams easier lol

[solid belfry]

Well I am an idiot

[sour crest]

you need it to be flat.

[solid belfry]

I have a massive block of aluminium there to test chube

[naive coral]

that about do it

[sour crest]

If you have a lathe, sure.

[naive coral]

dremel

[sour crest]

😂

[sour crest]

yeah that's only going to make the problem worse.

[solid belfry]

Well that makes more sense

[sour crest]

i think what you want is a small m5 cylinder

or washer that doesn't have a hole in the middle

[sour crest]

also the reason it might be doing it on t1 is because it literally just rotates into position

that position has the lowest PE, i just hand test it and it immediately goes into that position after like 4 clicks.

[naive coral]

whats the plan for installing pins and pushings? hopefully not to machine it to dimension? 😅

[solid belfry]

For pins it should be fine

For bushings you will have to buy a 5.5mm reamer

[naive coral]

👍

[solid belfry]

so like 10$ on ali

[naive coral]

yea thats doable

yea

[sour crest]

epic

man if this wasn't made out of rubber

@solid belfry i love how u bounce between our two build threads lol for ur toolhead

so excited to test it out once it's done!

[solid belfry]

I have a thread lol

it just sucks and nobody is in it

[sour crest]

fr? send link

[solid belfry]

https://discord.com/channels/1227971059764953230/1473519744979308655

[sour crest]

well ur in the monolith discord, that's the issue!

those folks don't even like mentioning stealthchanger exists.

[solid belfry]

I don't think anyone except us and mikeymike have any interest though

[sour crest]

@naive coral i just had a brilliant idea

5mm N52 magnet

[solid belfry]

I should make a stealthchanger thread

[sour crest]

on the bottom of the sexball dowel pin

wait it actually works with any mm magnet

the issue being magnet tries to jump up to the bushing

8mmx1mm stainless steel should work i think

the magnet does hold the whole assembly in when upside down

and it does stay down later

too strong magnets don't work though sadly

6x1.5 works for me

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Stainless-Circle-Stamping-Jewelry/dp/B0DR2L94ZP
this probably works for both the magnet and non magnet version to prevent the magnet from jumping up.

if i use this with a 6x3 magnet i think it'd work really really well

hold the dowel pin in, but not jump up to the shuttle

[sour crest]

@naive coral

i just wired up my sexball and should be done with the e-bay

unfortunately when i test the sexball as a filament switch sensor i can see it changing and detecting fine

but when i try it as a calibration probe, and test it out using TOOL_CALIBRATE_QUERY_PROBE

it always says triggered no matter what

any clues?

[naive coral]

ah mhm .. did you set the sensor pin the tool_calibrate section?
[tools_calibrate] # for more documentation see `docs/tools_calibrate.md` pin: ^PF1

[sour crest]

yes

[sour crest]

are you running ktc-easy or ktc-hard?

i'm thinking of migrating to ktc-hard

[naive coral]

ktc-hard and kalico

[sour crest]

nicee

i can't even boot up now in ktc-hard with carto mode

No section: 'tool_probe_endstop'

[naive coral]

yea your gonna need to change stuff likely

[sour crest]

endstop_pin: probe:z_virtual_endstop
homing_retract_dist: 0``` is no longer working lol

i reinstalled ktc-easy in carto mode, unfortunately still no dice

[naive coral]

cant help you with ktc-easy sadly 😅

maybe ask the folks on the Draftshift Discord?

[sour crest]

nah i'm on ktc-hard.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/klippy.py", line 130, in _connect
    self._read_config()
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/klippy.py", line 123, in _read_config
    self.load_object(config, section_config.get_name(), None)
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/klippy.py", line 112, in load_object
    self.objects[section] = init_func(config.getsection(section))
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/extras/tool_probe.py", line 184, in load_config_prefix
    return ToolProbe(config)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/extras/tool_probe.py", line 36, in __init__
    self.endstop = self.printer.load_object(config, "tool_probe_endstop")
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/klippy.py", line 112, in load_object
    self.objects[section] = init_func(config.getsection(section))
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/extras/tool_probe_endstop.py", line 368, in load_config
    return ToolProbeEndstop(config)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/home/apprisco/klipper/klippy/extras/tool_probe_endstop.py", line 30, in __init__
    config.fileconfig.set(self.name, "z_offset", "0.0")
  File "/usr/lib/python3.12/configparser.py", line 880, in set
    raise NoSectionError(section) from None
configparser.NoSectionError: No section: 'tool_probe_endstop'```

like is it that i need tool_probe_endstop included? Why does contomo's repo say use the scanner_cfg which means you won't get tool_probe_endstop? 😂

[naive coral]

idk maybe something is broken in ktc-hard

you can ask Contomo on the Draftshit Discord for help .. he is the ktc-hard maintainer 😅

[sour crest]

yeah i think i'm just going to wait till he wakes up 😂

sorry for bothering ya

i'm so sad. The full e-bay is finally complete and i can flip the printer upside down.. if the damn printer would no longer error.

[naive coral]

all good im not a expert, im just happy that my machine kinda does sometimes work lol

[sour crest]

@naive coral for your zbilical, are you using the hartk zbilical or how are you mounting the z cable?

trying to do 2 8 pin cables + carto cable + thermistor wire is just not working for me lol

esp through the pg9 gland.. maybe pg11 could fit.

[naive coral]

Just a simple spring steel wire nothing fancy

[sour crest]

i mean the mounts itself

which design is that?

[naive coral]

M5 screw and two washers

[sour crest]

i like the hartk cos it does have a second gland for the carto cable umbilical

oml, that's the Y endstop for monolith

ok that makes sense lol

[naive coral]

Yea

But im gonna swap the spring steel wire to flat spring steel caus the wire isnt really that controlable

[sour crest]

takes me back to my ender 6 days.

Corrugated pipe conduit

flexible, perfect for this

[naive coral]

idk why complicated when easy works just as well 😅

[sour crest]

@naive coral contomo fixed it 😄

and now i'm good on ktc-hard on normal Klipper as well

[naive coral]

well maybe not. I did a couple more runs and every now and then the probe z offset for T1 would jump from -1.5 to -1.6mm

something is really wrong here cause 1th of a mm is more then enough to cause issues

i did notice that when the toolhead homes z that it tilts slighty .. maybe thats also an issue

@wind gorge when you home z does your tooolhead stay exactly verytical? could you maybe take a video of your toolhead homing z from the side? would be interested in how it looks on your machine

[wind gorge]

Not exactly vertical for me but consistent.. I can take a video when I get home

[naive coral]

would be awesome! im gonna runn offset calibration a couple more times to see what the run to run variance is

[wind gorge]

Do you see the mechanism slide when it's booping the switch? I think it shouldn't

[naive coral]

slide like left to right?

or up and down?

so i think precision pins from misumi are out of the question lol. A single pin in the size we need is like 20€ 😆

[wind gorge]

Either one

The magnet should hold enough to make the sexball click first

[naive coral]

il check in a minute

[wind gorge]

I think you can just match tolerances from the cheap stuff no need for perfect ones

[naive coral]

yea maybe high tolerance bushings and aliexpress special pins would be a decent combo

I can calibrate_tool_offset 10 times after playing around with the backplate screws and it seams kinda good now. Twice i got an out of range error but the values seams reasonable consistent.

[naive coral]

even though the offset calibration values are very reliable now the actuall z offset during printing is way to close 🤔

adding 0.19mm to z offset produces nice and repeatable results .. now i just need to figure out how to apply that offset reliably

[sour crest]

are you calibrating before each print?

I heard it's fine to just calibrate once. People actively remove the sexball apparently

[naive coral]

no lol .. just once and then i set the values manually

but sucks that there is no real way to set an additional z offset via the print start macro

[sour crest]

then just add that to your Z offset values

or does it not work like that?

[naive coral]

yes but no. z offset when printing pla and abs will be slightly different seeing as the hotend expands the hotter it gets

[sour crest]

i really think it's a backplate tolerance issue

still wiring the gantry but when i did some offset testing before there were basically no issues

[sour crest]

ahh

[sour crest]

That is described here: https://www.klipper3d.org/G-Codes.html?h=offse#set_gcode_offset.

The klipper3d.org site is part of the klipper GitHub repository, and is meticulously kept up to date```

i'm sure there's a klipper-toolchanger-hard method to do this

[naive coral]

and when you change tools the z offset is set to 0 again 🙂

[sour crest]

ok so for your change_tool macro just add that in

can you not make macros take additional parameters/

kinda forget how this works 😂

[naive coral]

idk ive read a couple of times now that baby stepping really isnt supported in klipper toolchanger

no idea what side affects setting gcode offset would have

i really wish we had a proper tooclhanger feature in kalico

[sour crest]

honestly klipper itself could use a rewrite

it's a huge jumble and kudos to everyone contributing to it / making plugins cos like wow

i have a friend working on making their own manufacturing startup with ultra-modular machines

and they took 1 look at klipper and said nada lol

granted they also wrote their own CAM software cos "why not"

[naive coral]

idk about rewrite but a differnt mintset from kevin would help

start with not breaking extension space every with every second commit and start adding actual real features that are needed in the diy 3d printer community

[sour crest]

the fact that idex mirroring is still not supported is crazy to me

[naive coral]

to a degree that kalico is that kinda

[sour crest]

and how like peopoly and the induction hotend stuff all need custom klipper forks just to work bec it's that not modular

[naive coral]

but still missing features from plugins that a lot of us user ever day

things like awd stepper motor sync is dependent on one guy that doesnt really want to support kalico

[naive coral]

we could all just switch to reprap 😆

[sour crest]

ehhh reprap isn't that good either haha

it's not modular enough

[sour crest]

what's that?

[naive coral]

https://github.com/MRX8024/motors-sync

mainly supports klipper

[sour crest]

i've never had the need to do this

[naive coral]

but the maintainer added a fix so tha it also works with kalico cause motion queue is not and will never be a thing in kalico

[sour crest]

just loosen the front 2 pulleys

[naive coral]

you have also never printed before 😆

[sour crest]

run it forwards and back

no i have AWD gantries on other printers lol

[naive coral]

ah

[sour crest]

and remember, this printer printed like 2 prints before getting a catastrophic umbilical tie in that fried 4 ebbs and pulled out lots of wiring 😂

[naive coral]

that only works with low tension .. with high tension no loosening of the grub screws is gonna sync the belts

[sour crest]

on a single tool print too

[sour crest]

i run extremely high tension, if you loosen grub screws it syncs them auto bec the pulley slips on the motor shaft.

[naive coral]

also galvanic corrosion can bond the pully to the motor shaft making a sync that way impossible

sync_motors is just .. easy

[sour crest]

if you experience galvanic corrosion that quickly you need to control humidity haha

idk mine was perfect every time

fast and easy lol, but i do see the use for this

[naive coral]

idk yea maybe

but either way

[wind gorge]

video

[naive coral]

Mhm yea looks similar to my setup, thx!

[sour crest]

are you saying stealthtap itself is bad?

if so, even on PA12 i do get some failed examples. I do probe_count 5 now

this is also why i'm switching to carto.

[naive coral]

Adjusted the pretension screws? Any wobble in the bushings?

[naive coral]

Never said that, it just relies heavily on tigh ish tolerances on the bushings and pins

[sour crest]

i'd argue stealthtap itself is bad lol

[sour crest]

yeah toolchanges are perfect and extremely smooth, there is no wobble.

[sour crest]

there's two opinions i've heard in draftshift

years ago they said it was more accurate than regular tap and basically perfect

and then more recently I saw more and more people saying it's not consistent / accurate even after 100s of wearing in

[solid belfry]

I have seen a lot of issues mostly stemming from fysetc carriages

For some reason they don’t have good tolerances on their bushings

The ldo one seems to be a lot more consistent

[naive coral]

yea the bushings fystecs uses are hot garbage 😅

[solid belfry]

Sounds about right for fysetc quality

[naive coral]

thats the pin in the bushing beeing able to move side to side

[solid belfry]

That is so bad lol

[naive coral]

yea .. gonna order bushings from misumi with my next order

misumi bushings are 80c a piece but hopefully well worth it

[solid belfry]

Misumi sells bushings? I wanted to source steel bushings for less thermal expansion but idk still

[naive coral]

SF-10406 or MDZB4-6

both are steel

[solid belfry]

those are shitty mlb slit bearings though

I found some actual drill bushings but I still need to order them

[naive coral]

yea they dont have anything else

[naive coral]

if you found some let me know

hopefully whatever they are there is a source in eu for them

[solid belfry]

They are too thick wall wise for the fysetc/ldo shuttles

[naive coral]

ive checked igus as well and they have some but are all plastic ofc

https://at.rs-online.com/web/p/gleitbuchsen/5217736 / https://at.rs-online.com/web/p/gleitbuchsen/5217742 rs has some from bronze that are longer then needed but i can cut them down

[sour crest]

weird.

Mine doesn't do that

[naive coral]

tolerance be tolerancing :)

[sour crest]

@naive coral sexball + 1mm stainless steel shim + 3mm N52 magnet worked really really well

flipping upside down doesn't drop the pin, and it clicks VERY well

[naive coral]

pretty good!

[naive coral]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo

it turns out printing asa in an open air chamber is bad, who could have known

i seam to have accidently grabbed asa instead of pla when trying to tune z offset

🤦‍♂️ sometimes my adhd just kinda gets to me

[fair spindle]

If you don’t keep PLA around, won’t have these problems.

[naive coral]

yeaaa id need to buy panels and add insulation to this machine

im gonna get around to it eventually

i kinda wanna get it toolchanging first

guess il go and find that white pla that i have laying around somewhere

[naive coral]

A lot of tuning is still ahead of me but damn is this cool!

[sour crest]

jeez that is cool

[naive coral]

yea! print quality is hot garbage but i haven't tuned em/pm/input shaper 😅

[sour crest]

and no need till you get your chube compacts 😉

[naive coral]

meh that might as well take months lol

and tunint a printer only takes a couple of hours at most

[wind gorge]

Very nice !!!!

[fair spindle]

Appropriate use.

[naive coral]

very much! im gonna make sure that this machine will never print a benchy ever!

dino clips are just too usefull to not print them

[sour crest]

haven't printed a benchy in literal years

[fair spindle]

I have only printed one. and it was sometime in 2016-17

[naive coral]

Did some minor pa and em tuning today .. gonna print another dino clip for comparison

[naive coral]

Looks a lot better even before but its still not perfect.

There are some weird layers with layer stacking issues where im yet unsure where that came from
Layer stacking for white filament also seams to be noticeable worse then the black parts.

[sour crest]

Niceeee :)))

Looks great

[naive coral]

if you ignore the horrible layer stacking then yea looks great 😅

[sour crest]

is the only thing i would be sus about

[naive coral]

among other things yea

[sour crest]

also pressure advance seemds off on the corners

but yeah why are you getting so much z banding? weird

I'm trying to build up my 6th tool but for some reason the moment i put xhp-222 in the nylon gearbox it just eats shit and dies

[naive coral]

yea idk layer stacking is also noticably differnt between T0 and T1 as well

my current theory is that the fitment between bushings and pins makes a huge difference to print quality

[sour crest]

that is really interesting

maybe preload on t1 is bad?

[naive coral]

na jus bad bushing / pin tolerances

[sour crest]

why is it good on one tool and bad on the next tho

[naive coral]

because pin tolerances arent set in stone?

[sour crest]

and it's interesting. I think your printer is the first stealthchanger i've been closely observing tolerances for and i'm curious if anyone did as much print quality tuning as you did

[sour crest]

then that pin must have really bad tolerance ranges haha

[naive coral]

it doesnt take much to cause print quality issues ^^

[sour crest]

is replacing the pin annoying? would you have to do the soldering trick again

[naive coral]

ive seen this bad layer stacking on a couple other stealthchangers as well .. if you look at posts on their discord from other users

[sour crest]

ah

i'm scared now 😂

that stacking looks like Ender 3 levels of z banding

@naive coral are you using the fysetc shuttle? Could you try the printed shuttle instead w your own bushings?

[naive coral]

for a couple of exmaples .. possible that its extruder related

[sour crest]

baby yoda one looks intended

[naive coral]

you can also just swap the bushing :P

[sour crest]

i have low confidence in their cnc part tolerances

[naive coral]

😆

[sour crest]

we should just wait for Hank's toolhead 😂

[naive coral]

yea or someone should design a better toolchanging mechanism that doesnt rely so heavily on pin and bushing tolerances 🙃

[sour crest]

i think just increasing magnet strength is a good solution

two mags to hold in a tool is kinda ass

[naive coral]

still relies on pins and bushings even if the magnets are really strong

and they can not be to strong or else the tap function will ruin printplates

[sour crest]

cartographer! 😄

cartographer + tap for tool detection is ideal

Cekim has tool crash detection working with cartographer too

[naive coral]

ive got very strong opinions on cartographer and because of them i will never use a cartographer 🙂

[sour crest]

ok, use a beacon then 😂

[naive coral]

thats better and i already have one here lol

[sour crest]

but yeah i think standard TAP stealthchanger is slowly getting phased out.

wow everything is up to date, wtf

[naive coral]

if only we had a design using maxwel couplings that doesnt use a metric tone of space on the docks 🙃

[sour crest]

kinematic couplings are cool but i've found they wear out surprisingly fast or rely too heavily on extreme tolerances

https://youtu.be/tlMmmSFyGIo
check this out instead

with my extreme Z space i should really look into methods that lower the tool docks into place

@naive coral btw so what's your current bushing tolerance rating? And are we not allowed to use graphite

i have sources for really high tolerance graphite bushings

[naive coral]

tolerance rating? on aliexpress bushings? 🤣

[sour crest]

😂 ok

i believe my current ones are +-0.022mm

[naive coral]

for all i care the tolerance is "trust me bro" lmao

[sour crest]

my pin tolerances are ass probably but my bushings i trust

[naive coral]

pin tolerance also fals under "trust me bro"

[sour crest]

https://www.amazon.com/MECCANIXITY-Stainless-Chamfered-Elements-Furniture/dp/B0FJCQ5YGB

these are my pins rn 😂

[naive coral]

but atleast pins we can measure with a micrometer (that i dont have lol)

[sour crest]

https://nzminiaturebearings.com/product/4x6x6-mm-jdb040606-graphite-brass-bushing-sku-2804060653.html

these are my bushings. They are extremely well toleranced

true, pins would work

[sour crest]

we can round the ends pretty easily with an actual machining tool or just sandpaper + drill

so what matters most is actual 4mm tolerance

[naive coral]

well de.misumi seams to have them but only for an id of 6mm or bigger

[sour crest]

same for mcmaster unfortunately

also truly disappointing mcmaster doesn't have 4x6x6, just 4x5.5x6 and 4x7x6

for bushings

i think the stealthchanger design just uses very weird/ uncommon dimensions

[naive coral]

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0G5PXY88K? ordered some normal brass 4x6x10 bushings that im gonna try

[sour crest]

why longer ones?

[naive coral]

they are still china specials but atleast full brass

[naive coral]

cause thats all they had and i can cut them down using my dremel :P

[sour crest]

😂

sorry when you said tubes yesterday I was thinking like full on metal chassis tubes

[naive coral]

what do you think i make in my hobby room loool

[sour crest]

what i'm thinking is getting 4mm ID, 7mm OD super high tolerance bushings from mcmaster

then cutting them down on a lathe

to 6mm OD

[naive coral]

if you have access to a lathe why not just make the bushings yourself? 🤔

[sour crest]

like i can get 4x7x8 bushings

[sour crest]

very old manual lathes. And I'm not a great machinist

it sucks that all the bearings I can get are all oil embedded haha

woahwoahwoah

this is viable

and steel is good if you think about it

@naive coral i have a good plan. If it ends up working out i'll let you know.
Shipping to EU might be hard but this is probably ideal

@naive coral i'm also curious

brass expands more than steel

does that mean the hole gets enlarged as it heats up compared to the dowel pins?

do we not heat it up enough to matter?

[naive coral]

yea it will likely be an issue in a warm chamber

[sour crest]

maybe i should really just machine my own. Getting the inner tolerance good would require reamers tho

all out of stainless steel would be kinda fire.

[naive coral]

might just be our best option

to bad i dont know anyone with a metal workshop

[sour crest]

i'll see how it goes. Machining both out of stainless steel IS the ideal option

I'm a horrible machinist so maybe this is a good project to get me started.

[naive coral]

i mean we do have cnc services that we could possibly use

[sour crest]

*I'm good at using the manual mill, but not a lathe

• wait that is a pretty damn good option

[naive coral]

or someone comes up with a tool changing solution that doesnt suck

[sour crest]

should I try it? I can get sendcutsend to machine me stainless steel parts

it should honestly be really easy

[naive coral]

does scs do cnc?

[sour crest]

and not that expensive

yes

[naive coral]

oh damn

yea might as well give it a try!

[sour crest]

https://youtu.be/65rfapjyp1w

wait this sounds so much easier 😂

[naive coral]

thats amazing 😆

[sour crest]

do you know how long the thread is supposed to be in the m3x12mm dowel pin? @naive coral

i'm designing the step files now

[naive coral]

well almost all the way inside i think

[sour crest]

@naive coral sendcutsend won't do it

too small part volume

pcbway / jlcpcb is insanely expensive

self machining might be the only way

[naive coral]

ah damn

[sour crest]

what i can do for the rod is just make it obscenely long so we can cut it

but then there'd be no hole in the center we can use..

[naive coral]

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005008884281359.html?

they cell steel 4x6x6 bushings

[sour crest]

for the bushings i can just turn down mcmaster-carr ones, should be pretty easy

[naive coral]

oh nvm they are 4mm od

[sour crest]

no they're 4mm id

[sour crest]

yes they labeled it wrong

go look at the description

they say order is id x od x length

[naive coral]

oh lmao

[sour crest]

def getting them, thanks for the spot!

lets see how bad the tolerances are 😂

you should also grab them. We can see if they're better

[naive coral]

there is also this -> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007971520999.html

[thorny spruce]

so.. im already running self-reamed bushings 😅
i have some of the stainless ones. we bought all over while testing different stuff.
our focus then was on not messing up tap too bad, so different goal.

but if all you want is thight bushings for IS, then get some undersize ones and ream'em.

4mm h7/h8 seems to be what we landed on.

[naive coral]

or this -> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005011768052687.html but for 40€ for 3 bushings i think il skip it 😆

[naive coral]

guess i could buy 3x6x6 mm bushings and buy a 4mm reamer

[sour crest]

yeah ig that's expected

[thorny spruce]

one problem tho.

too tight and it will be hard to dock/undock.

that gets easier if you had stronger/more magnets. but..
you'll need to find a balance

[sour crest]

wish 4.01mm reamers were a thing 😂

but yeah thanks @thorny spruce for the input! makes perfect sense

[thorny spruce]

theres 4mm +/-some tolerance. that's what the h5/6/7/8... is about.

[sour crest]

ahhh makes sense

got H7

@thorny spruce any specific set of pins you recommend?

[thorny spruce]

i just bought a bunch measure them and use the "best" ones 😂
you can more easily sand pins down than bushings.

[sour crest]

calipers or micrometer?

thanks!

[naive coral]

micrometer!

typical calipers are "trust me brow" level of accurate 😆

[sour crest]

i've got some really nice japanese ones 😂

[thorny spruce]

calibers not accurate enough for that 😂

i just went by feel. calipers for the quick first round of elimination.

[naive coral]

yea ive got mitutoyo in my cart and its just waiting for me to buy them 😆

[naive coral]

also would you stick with 8mm pins or go with 12 or 14mm once?

[sour crest]

is'nt stealthchanger bom 12mm?

[naive coral]

ah yea

[thorny spruce]

we kinda started out using 14-16mm pins.

[naive coral]

cause i feel like when i home using tap that the toolhead leans a bit -> #1434612830614585476 message

idk if thats because the pins are too short

or if its the play in the bushing

[thorny spruce]

it is. but because of flared bushings and other considerations 13-14 is probably better.

[thorny spruce]

longer pins can help with that.
but usually it's the umbilical pushing or pulling on the toolhead. and toolhead com. causing it.

[sour crest]

i mean the fysetc shuttle isn't great either 😂

[naive coral]

guess im gonna try the 16mm pins that i have here somewhere

[thorny spruce]

only reason to not use long pins is that you need to have backplates more aligned, so can't as easily run different toolheads as they don't all line up.

[thorny spruce]

the docking path might need to be changed a bit with 16mm. depends. you'll find out 😅

[thorny spruce]

i mean.. eye of the beholder..
fysetc cnc shuttle was a huge improvement over printed 🙂

[sour crest]

it's def a little on the flexy side compared to LDO

[naive coral]

the ldo one that much better?

[sour crest]

bunch of people claim so. I'm sticking with fysetc cos i already have carto mounts in pc-abs for it

[naive coral]

cause just from looking at pictures its basically identical

[thorny spruce]

there's quite a few differences, but they're all based on the same cnc shuttle base cad.

[naive coral]

well ig with the ldo one there is a lot more meat where it counts

but its thinner .. i hate when rigidiy is scarified in the name of making something "lighter"

[sour crest]

ldo is definitely beefier. Just don't know what's better once you install carto/beacon and fill up the gaps with 3d printed parts

[thorny spruce]

yea, common theme in niche hobbies that..

weight doesn't really matter that much in this case.

[naive coral]

sadly yea

they fystec one could be so much better if they didnt skeletonise each feature to the absolute minimum

then again thats the same company making that stupid light weight x beam 🙃

[sour crest]

just design a better one with carto built in & get it CNC'd 😂

[naive coral]

yea no lol .. might as well wait for @solid belfry creation

[thorny spruce]

not the worst idea.
but you don't really want the beacon there because it's prime real-estate for fan-ducts.

[solid belfry]

I have both. Both are pretty flexy

The ldo one has considerably better tolerances on the bushings though

Better screws as well as fit and finish

[naive coral]

The bushings that i ordered from amazon arrived and they are a lot tigther then the once fystec provided

They are made from brass and not steel so likely cant use them in higher chambers but for now they should hopefully be good enough.

Ngl if i cant get the fit to be almost perfect with layer stacking that im happy with il likely just wait for indx cause rn layer stacking is worse then on an ender from over a decade ago 😆

[rugged juniper]

@naive coral did you get time to finish touching up that drill guide yet?

[naive coral]

ah damn not yet

[rugged juniper]

np, I think my frame ships later today so I got time still

[thorny spruce]

you've calibrated it with axiscope already?
small differences in xyz offsets will make for some bad stacking.

if you've already calibrated.. there was some changes to how offsets work in klipper and ktc.. might want to doublecheck a few things in your config.

[thorny spruce]

indx in above average chamber temps tho?

[naive coral]

asiscope wont fix bad layerstacking ^^

the offset between toolheads is fine

but within the same toolhead layers dont stack very well .. even on single toolhead prints

[thorny spruce]

if it's due to xy offsets being off it will. if it's z then no.

[naive coral]

its even worse with multi toolhead prints

if xy offset where to be bad then the two colors wouldn't line up perfectly 😅

[thorny spruce]

🤷‍♂️ lots of variables involved with it. the changer mechanism is just one of them.

[naive coral]

its ofc possible that the extruder is to blame

[thorny spruce]

never had layer stacking issues on mine, even with bad z offsets the stacking has been decent. 🤔 but have only run changers with sherpa-mini+ridga and o2.5

i have messed up slicer settings a couple times, that can cause weird stuff to happen.

but i'd check extruder first.
you're running papilio right?

[naive coral]

yea papilio

im gonna replace with one that i know that it runs well. maybe it really is the extruder

but i do kinda doubt it

[thorny spruce]

how much wiggle do you have in the mechanism?
preload screws adjusted and perfected?

[naive coral]

yea, i also ran offset calibration many times a couple of days ago and there is some variation in the values that its reading.

i did 3 runs, then homed, then another 3 runs

z offset is very consistent, xy offset is kinda all over the place

and seeing as minor changes to extrusion can impact layer stacking quality, a 0.01mm shift in the toolhead might have a rather big impact on print quality

but il swap extruders and try again, maybe papileo isnt as great as i was making it up to be 😅

[thorny spruce]

0.1mm, yes.
0.01mm, not great.
0.001mm, kinda, but hard to tell.
0.0001mm, nah.

[naive coral]

yea and for x the max delta is 0.018 and y for its 0.005. maybe y is so much better then x because of the preload screws for y. nothing stops the toolhead shifting around on x every so slightly when changing / going fast

but thats only my theory

[thorny spruce]

so the preload screws do push the bottom pin against the bushing and should hold it atill enough in x
but how fast are you printing?

[naive coral]

maybe, printing at orca slicer stock speeds for the v2

[thorny spruce]

i'm printing at 4 times that accel and higher speeds.. so it's not that.

and. 50k travels.

[naive coral]

yea but only trial and error will show 😅

easiest fix might be the different bushings and then a differnt known good extruder

last step is getting a micrometer and checking all used pins for consistent diameter

[thorny spruce]

it's a little easier to experiment with just one factor at a time 😂

[naive coral]

ye ofc

gonna change one, then print a cube, then change the next

also maybe get stronger magnets for the carriage, no idea how good the fystec once really are

[naive coral]

I swapped to the new bushings and the play is gone but ofc it doesnt slide in freely at all .. and then there is also this:

@solid belfry please save me from this 3d printed toolhead madness 🤣

This toolhead, consisting of a couple different parts, defiantly does not help with toolhead rigidity

[naive coral]

Maybe we really do need to drop the Stealthchanger approach and follow what everyone else has been doing for years

Both parts should also be really easy to either slm print or cnc machine and would allow for much sturdier and rigid mounting, lets see if they respond and are willing to share the cad file (and maybe bom if there is one)