Theory: Naval Strike Group

[opaque totem]

They do? It is stated in multiple places that minimum fusion engine weight is 250kg

I've made a bunch of Small SVs with 250kg fusion engines

They're great

I was specifically riding the line to see what it can do

Anyway, I doubt Elias would withstand Autocannon velocity without breaking

We have the Davy Crocket being massively bloated to work out of a far lower velocity cannon

[gritty inlet]

The velocity is from a loaded assumption that the same computers capable of bearings only launches at 1000+ velocity can't predict where something will be within an acceptable margin of error at 1 velocity of random acceleration

[opaque totem]

Yes, because the computer doesn't have precognition

If your massive thrust vectors in a random direction for a few seconds, you will be massively off course

So we can calculate how wide the accuracy 'cone' is in surface area

[gritty inlet]

They're predicting where you will be based on your thrust

[opaque totem]

and create an estimate of speed required to make the cone equal to the surface area of a target

[gritty inlet]

They can see you moving and your massive cone of thrust

[opaque totem]

Right, so suppose in a one minute turn, you fire
Then in one second I move my thrust vector from left to right, and I move 1g for 59 seconds in a different direction

I will be nowhere near where you shell expected me to be

[gritty inlet]

The turns are an abstraction

They move and fire simultaneously

[opaque totem]

Okay, suppose I move 5.5g for 5 seconds

[gritty inlet]

You don't have 59 seconds to burn

[opaque totem]

Still a massive area

[gritty inlet]

According to your own reasoning it shouldn't be possible to hit a stationary target at 50 hexes if you stop moving unexpectedly

[opaque totem]

5.5g for 5 seconds is 612.5 meters

[gritty inlet]

Yes and they see the thrust and adjust accordingly

900m/s really isn't that impressive in space

[opaque totem]

It's 6 seconds from your gun to impact
And the thrust vectors in 1 second
So I have 5 seconds to thrust in a different direction

A tiny 6 seconds to impact means the target is 600km+ off

[gritty inlet]

1 second to impact is 360m/s for ac2

Actually achievable in atmosphere

I have planes faster

The velocity you're describing as insane is pathetic by space terms

[opaque totem]

???
An AC10 has 15 long range
That's 270km in space
In order to reach that distance in 60 seconds, it would fire at 4.5km per second

45km per second for 6 seconds to hit

72km per second for an AC2 at 24 range in 6 seconds

[gritty inlet]

You did basic math wrong

[opaque totem]

They are preposterously fast projectiles

[opaque totem]

???

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/physics/displacement_v_a_t.php

I used a calculator

Find u, the starting velocity

given a range of 270km

and acceleration of 0

and a time of 6 seconds

= 45000 meters per second

So u, the Muzzle Velocity is 45km/s

And it still has my 7/11 craft dodging it by more than half a kilometer

[gritty inlet]

270km crossed in one second is 270km/s or 27,000m/s

[opaque totem]

the range is 270km

15 hexes

[gritty inlet]

Yes

[opaque totem]

18km per hex

[gritty inlet]

Yes

18km per hex * 15 hexes = 270km / 1 second = 270km/s to cross 270km in one second

[opaque totem]

Yes?

What is the question

[gritty inlet]

Do you know the acceleration required?

[opaque totem]

Oh for the calculator

it's 0 acceleration

a gun doesn't accelerate past the barrel

that's why the cannon velocities are stupidly high vs missiles

[gritty inlet]

The missiles also reach similar velocities they just take longer to get there

It's 55,102gs.

[opaque totem]

Yes, but we haven't gotten into the actual speeds required to hit

That's where missiles don't need more speed because they can track the target

[gritty inlet]

They have at most 40gs of wiggle room

[opaque totem]

An AC10 needs to be 45km/s at the muzzle to miss by 600 meters
It has to be FAR faster to actually hit

[gritty inlet]

By the same calculation metric they also miss

[opaque totem]

A missile meanwhile can cruise in at a quarter that speed and be fine because it's tracking the target the whole time

[gritty inlet]

The required acceleration to reach the prescribed velocity of 270km/s is 55,100gs, a missile has only 40gs of delta v

[opaque totem]

No?
Missiles only have to move 50 hexes per entire minute

[gritty inlet]

They have at most 40 fuel after spending the launch fuel

Some missiles have only 25

Each point is 1g

[gritty inlet]

And that prescribed velocity is... The conservative estimate of only requiring one second of travel time

[opaque totem]

You mean the estimate of how fast an AC actually needs to be to hit a manuvering target?

5.5g for 1 second is 26.95 meters
So about the distance where you will have a chance to hit despite maneuvering

[gritty inlet]

The actual limit as to when an autocannon reaches the same speed a missile is physically capable of reaching is if it has 33 seconds of travel time

And that's for a cuda

Aka the fast one

Thats a mere 490m/s^2 of delta v

[opaque totem]

Anyway, back to the point, I don't think a fusion bomb can handle 270km/s acceleration
Or higher in the barrel

A gun-type fission bomb could probably be designed to though

[gritty inlet]

That's a velocity

Acceleration is dependent upon time and i chose 33 seconds

So it's 8km/s^2 acceleration

[opaque totem]

Yes, and since the shell in in the cannon's barrel for much less than a second, the acceleration is vastly higher

[gritty inlet]

It's still at most 834 gs because autocannon

[opaque totem]

???

[gritty inlet]

Yes

[opaque totem]

It has to move 270km/s out the barrel or it doesn't reach the target in the required 1 second

[gritty inlet]

Yes

It reaches the target in the required 33 seconds and imparts 834 gs of acceleration before it exits the barrel to reach the required velocity of 8181m/s

[opaque totem]

where are you getting 33 seconds from
the AC slug can't hit moving targets with more than 1 second of travel time

[gritty inlet]

It's the fastest travel time of the missile

[opaque totem]

I'm talking about cannons, not missiles

[gritty inlet]

Well either your estimates are off or you can't hit anything with missiles either

[opaque totem]

???
The missiles don't need to travel in 1 second because they're guided

As long as they reach the distance within 60 seconds they're good

[gritty inlet]

You know what fine one ton ac10 slug precision nuke

500kg nuke 500kg caseless precision propellant

The warhead bring ripped straight out of an alamo missile

[opaque totem]

That should work, yes

[gritty inlet]

It's completely incompatible with normal ammo feeds but it does technically fit down the barrel

[opaque totem]

Precision drastically reduces required acceleration

[opaque totem]

I mean I doubt it, it would need to be a custom design because it's one big shell

Plus the normal feeds wouldn't be made for the weight

[gritty inlet]

the targeting computer is the entire reason aero assets don't need precision to counteract different gravities

[opaque totem]

Rifles not having velocity to be useful in space was always a thing iirc
And AC5 is the settings first spacegun

Its on the Aquilla

[gritty inlet]

No i mean mechs in low gravity eat dirt

Aerospace fighters don't

Same ammo different unit computer

[opaque totem]

Surface combat on ship hulls rules explicitly state ground unit targeting isn't made for space

So you only get 1 hex range

[gritty inlet]

That's overcorrecting

[opaque totem]

Not necessarily given ECM

And sensors

Default probably wouldn't even recognize things beyond 18km

[gritty inlet]

Really though the gold standard would be capital scale nac nukes

Nac30 should be able to fit q good Nuke in

[opaque totem]

The challenge is getting it out in a functional state

[gritty inlet]

Or naval gauss

Naval gauss is easy

[opaque totem]

Naval gauss has the acceleration problem plus the insane magnets needed to power it

Even BT hardened electronics are affected by nukes, and gauss if far beyond that

[gritty inlet]

The acceleration is actually far lower because gauss and as far as i know none of the essential nuclear weapon materials are magnetic

[opaque totem]

what

[gritty inlet]

Gauss has a longer acceleration time and neither uranium nor beryllium are magnetic if memory serves

The barrel length is usually longer it's part of why gauss is so heavy

[gritty inlet]

Though if both are equally magnetic then it actually makes making a nuke easier

[opaque totem]

Okay so to get a slug 48 hexes in 1 second requires about 0.8% Lightspeed muzzle velocity

And when you squeeze that into 20 meters of barrel you get FTL acceleration very quickly lmao

Actually wait

Capital weapons have +5 to hit less than 500 ton units

The 1 second is based on being able to get good hit probablity vs an ASF

But if you increase the size of the target in the cone, your margin is larger

So you can use slower projectiles

So we discovered the reason for the Capital Weapon inaccuracy vs light units from first principles!

Also Naval Gauss needs like 100 meter long barrels lol

@gritty inlet
something interesting I noticed in general:

LF Batteries price out light warships

But Light Warships are more viable without LF Batteries

Because light warship price is primarily the KF Core

So the price difference between Dropships and Light Warships narrows without LF Batteries

[gritty inlet]

It requires much slower than that your numbers are for crazy people

Also there's a massive difference between 1000m/s over 0.001 seconds and 1000m/s over 0.1 seconds

Acceleration is quadratic so you don't need much distance to quarter the felt g forces

And a quarter of a thousand gs is a hell of a lot more manageable than a thousand gs

97171 gs from a 5.56 ok there we go

That puts the nuclear weapons from an ac10 into perspective

For every other inch of barrel the g forces required to accelerate a projectile to maximum velocity shrink by a factor of 10

So with a mere 86" the muzzle gs of a battleship, which by the way are all nuclear capable shrinks to 19529 gs

Which uhhh

Either space having no drag amplifies the velocity by an order of several magnitudes or of all weapons or all barrels as depicted are useless by either of our standards @opaque totem

The assumption that a bullet can provide full acceleration for even 30 meters of barrel length is a loaded one

But the minimum barrel length i got for a battleship gun was 300 meters to achieve the minimum velocity of 8km/s and for a 556 was 30 meters

So it's more reasonable to assume that they have better than rifle performance than it is to assume anything else

Which i guess checks out

Of course

There's a secret third option: double weight capital missiles

Twice the health twice the fuel twice the thrust but the same performance

This would make it impossible to kill a 70 damage bay

[gritty inlet]

may be of interest to you

Ahnnnn

Why the hell is admin first

[sly wave]

who were you trying to ping?

[gritty inlet]

@opaque totem

[gritty inlet]

It was a misclick my bad

[sly wave]

I figured that from your comments. It happens.

Your punishment is 2 ammo explosions without CASE

[gritty inlet]

I never run case

I was testing battle formations to maximize firepower while minimizing blind spots with aerodynes

Small craft let me test somethings without risking the avenger

And in turn train dropship crew faster

[opaque totem]

Your punishment has just been reduced by inflation

[gritty inlet]

I have a billion cbills

[opaque totem]

Even MG ammo explosions don't go that far these days

[gritty inlet]

2 ammo explosions is acceptable losses

[arctic pumice]

ah, that explains it, fair enough

[opaque totem]

Yeah I have a few of these kinds of games, they're fun

[gritty inlet]

Good god 114 kills and half of them are with leopard cvs

Granted the avenger sweeps up bronze stars like theyre litter and got those 60 kills in as little as 2 years to the leopard's 5

[gritty inlet]

I simply refuse to use the new ammo explosion rules

[opaque totem]

They're good tho

[gritty inlet]

Ammo explosions are cool

[opaque totem]

Ammo explosions are dangerous but don't need to be infinity damage

[gritty inlet]

Yes they do they built the setting on cold war vibes

Turret explosions are canon

Make mechs suffer too

It fits the aesthetic better

[opaque totem]

NATO tanks all have ammo protection

[gritty inlet]

Yes but that isn't fun

[opaque totem]

It's the Soviet tanks that got notorious for exploding

[gritty inlet]

If i get a lucky crit i want to see something go up in smoke

I don't care if it happens to me because it makes the game more tense to know that even a small laser can turn the tide

Im pretty sure im on every factions watchlist by now

Ive never had so many of these things on one person even in my campaign where i started with an Achilles

I uh still can't afford a single interdictor or monolith jumpship

So whatever you consider "cheap" should definitely be reconsidered

[opaque totem]

No, mercenaries being priced out is normal

Them being in BT in a major capacity is very strange to begin with

And of course pirates and privateers will turn and run when faced with actual military warships

[gritty inlet]

My entire gimmick for this campaign is psychotic ambition to the point of bloodlust. Like a clanner who just sees enemies as potential profit

Any and all risk is acceptable and expected

So long as the profit margin is higher than the odds of failure

[opaque totem]

The famous mercenary charm

Which makes them beloved across history

[gritty inlet]

The closest ive been to bankruptcy is a control roll of 11 at 1 altitude at zero velocity

[opaque totem]

Have you heard of the IRL Mi-24 merc?

[gritty inlet]

Still got the silver star after

[gritty inlet]

No but im sure it's glorious

[opaque totem]

Rebels were advancing on the capital and the defenders evacuated because they didn't think they could win

He decided to take on the invasion with just his Mi-24, at night

His crew pointed out they didn't even have night vision so they refused the mission

He went solo in the two man helicopter to fight the army himself

[gritty inlet]

Mine just wants to hunt big game

By that i mean pocket warships

[opaque totem]

He won against the army, twice

They didn't take the city until he had a mechanical failure and had to leave

He kept fighting but the government was no longer able to pay him, so he ran out of ammo
He still ran missions and used rotor wash to flip truck instead, and dropped threatening leaflets

Then the British intervened by paying him directly and he stayed until the war was won

Then he fought in Afghanistan

He was last seen fighting ISIS

[gritty inlet]

Lol

10/10

I just killed a dropship in two shots without breaking pace or slowing down then killed their escorts also without slowing down

[opaque totem]

Googling him, I'm finding references and quotes that would fit in perfectly in BT

One of them was just a discussion of a regional conflict and it was like, 'Yeah this one warlord is so incompetent that he offered this big name merc a contract and he refused'

Another one was discussing Wagner in Africa and he was quoted directly saying, 'Yeah this area is very different from what they're used to, they'll need to acclimated to tile jungle.'

[gritty inlet]

I simply refuse to touch the ground

That's for the peasants i hire to pilot my bucaneer and the associated escorts

The campaign ends when im grounded

[opaque totem]

@gritty inlet what do you think

8 Pirahna arrays in three directions

10 conventional 10 nuclear missiles

pretend the SCL3s are individual too

the SCCs are quad mounted for bracketing at long range tho

Price is only $2.5b

[gritty inlet]

Again i operate in a world where an avenger can cleanly split a dropship in half

[opaque totem]

This is for fighting ASF squadrons at a time

24 Launchers means it can nuke 24 squadrons at a time

[gritty inlet]

I can kill one plane a turn

[gritty inlet]

Yeaaah idk tbh

Most sane settings don't have to kill the entire squadron in one turn

[opaque totem]

Ships that leave an ASF squadron unscathed get 54 AShMs launched at them

[gritty inlet]

They get 0 because fighters with 54 ashm can't #?-(!+ Move

Enjoy your one thrust idiot im literally just going to fly around you and force you into the long range bracket no matter what you do

[opaque totem]

Eh

The external stores speed thing is broken

[gritty inlet]

It's actually pretty balanced

[opaque totem]

3x2 ton missiles somehow slow down a 4.5g engine on a 90 tonner???

The physics is busted

[gritty inlet]

Either you pay internal weight and sacrifice guns or you lose thrust by adding extra mass

[opaque totem]

In any case, even by rules a 6/9 90 tonner becomes a 3/5 with 3xAShMs

[gritty inlet]

Only by like half a g

[opaque totem]

Oh also I just noticed: AShMs only have 2 armor

They're treated as arrows, so they get 2 armor, not 3

[gritty inlet]

Isn't it capital scale

[opaque totem]

That means only 7 AMS to shoot down an AShM

[opaque totem]

Yes, but it's not a Capital Missile

It specifically says it's treated as an arrow

and Arrows have a section in the AMS rules saying they have 2 armor

[gritty inlet]

Who cares i have s custom hot fit of an xl sabre to run

[opaque totem]

lol

[gritty inlet]

It's the hot knife special in small craft form

The swap to erml makes it run hot but it's worth it to skirmish harder

This uh is technically a direct upgrade in every aspect except cost

It costs as much as An xl medium fighter but it has freakish performance for the size

It can absolutely kill your crew

[opaque totem]

This is what I think an average ASF bomber will look like in this scenario

[gritty inlet]

Standard engine

[opaque totem]

6 AShMs in the bay, 3 external

[gritty inlet]

Thin

[opaque totem]

Medium range accuracy bonus

Totally stripped of advanced tech for low cost, durability, and maintenance

[gritty inlet]

That isn't durable not that it matters

[opaque totem]

It takes 2xSCL3 to kill to the nose

or 3xLSCC

Mission is to reach Capital Medium Range and fire

[gritty inlet]

The Thunderbird takes 3

[opaque totem]

4xSL run in PD mode

[gritty inlet]

The eisenstrum takes almost 4

[opaque totem]

Do you think more armor is needed for a 1 shot design?

[gritty inlet]

You're saving cost so the slayer is your actual competition

[opaque totem]

You mean ditching AShMs for nuke autocannons?

[gritty inlet]

Slayer has the same armor as the Thunderbird

[gritty inlet]

Slayer with a nuclear autocannon would go so hard

It's a really good design

Would come with two nukes stock if you go that route

But it would be reduced to a mere 5 medium lasers against another fighter

I am under no delusion that an alamo warhead crammed into a knockoff tbolt will be able to hit anything under 500 tons

But personally id go for heavy gauss

Instead of nukes

It's much more reliable

There's even a fit that can do 2 capital damage indefinitely and eat up to 6 scl3

At long range

Safely outside of the shell cannisters

[opaque totem]

The 'Medium' Bomber gets even wierder

[gritty inlet]

60 tons is pretty mid

[opaque totem]

It runs with no external stores at 5/8

And has reduced fuel and uses HFF with 2 points missing rear

Tiny engine

$2.2m tho

6 AShMs

[gritty inlet]

The tyre can probably out damage a capital missile barrage

Should take a look at it

55 tons

[opaque totem]

55 tons 5/8

Clan tho

thin armor

[gritty inlet]

It's disgusting

[opaque totem]

oh jeeze

[gritty inlet]

In every way

Clanners bid by tonnage

[opaque totem]

It skipped leg day and armor day

but not gun day

7xMPL + UAC10 + ERSL

lol

3 tons of ammo too

It will die before running out of ammo

Hell I'd remove a ton for more armor

[gritty inlet]

It hits harder than many heavy fighters and matches the tonnage of medium fighters and is extremely cheap

One of those killed 2 slayers

And crit out an Shiva before it could even fire a shot

[gritty inlet]

Swap to gauss if you are a clanner and cut the ersl and cooling for armor

Cmpl is what makes it as lethal as it is

[opaque totem]

I'm designing IS tech for these challenges just for simplicity

Clantech doesn't fundamentally change anything, but just tweaks things enough to make it more complicated and annoying

Especially since it's just a buff for light craft because the setting never bothered to advance Capital scale tech

[gritty inlet]

Just double your expected mortality rates and expect them to constantly bid away their fancy Omnifighters

Wont change how much they kill

But it will change your salvage rates

Other than that they're pretty standard

Aside from maximum critfish, alpha, dps, range elite pilots you can't force into psrs and speed they play the same

The tyre is a creature of spite

I bid my entire heavy squadron expecting to fight the sabutai and get my money back 10fold

They sent that thing out and killed twice their tonnage for a third of the cost

I literally just wanted a sabutai because it looks cool 😵‍💫

[gritty inlet]

It exists explicitly to clown on people who built like sane people

[gritty inlet]

If it's inner sphere tech id go for a uh

You know what? Uac20

Ulnac20

Idk

Or long tom cannon

Basically any big gun

[opaque totem]

I just realized the 5/8 60 ton with a 36 ton bomb bay will become a 10g rocket after firing AShMs

wait

AShMs are only 2 tons

So it will be a rocket before firing too

[gritty inlet]

Unfortunately you spent the engine upgrade weight on the bay

(hollow space takes volume which is equivalent to tonnage)

[opaque totem]

6.66g when loaded with 6 AShMs

lol

Call it the Satan Bomber

[opaque totem]

The design and TT rules don't calculate physics

In universe an empty bay means you weigh less so your engines push you way faster

An AShM is only 2 tons

So a 36 ton bomb bay only holds 12 tons of missiles

That means your 5/8 60 ton bomber is actually moving 6.66g at full thrust and full bomb bay

Ah wait

The SI can't handle the speed lol

That means we need a Small Craft for this

[carmine ingot]

good numbers

[gritty inlet]

It can handle 6 gs

[opaque totem]

6 SI can only handle 3G

[gritty inlet]

You can safely use overthrust

[opaque totem]

0.5g per SI

[gritty inlet]

Oh

[gritty inlet]

Probably why they lock the speed down

[opaque totem]

Wait my bad
Anti-Ship Missiles are affected by Point Defense systems in the same manner as Capital Missiles

3 armor then

New idea:

Who needs AShMs?

If we are using nuke warheads, LAAAs work with one third the bomb bay tonnage

And one third the external ordinance count

And one quarter the raw weight

AShMs will just be thrown in occasionally as 'Heavy' missiles that require larger AMS arrays to counter

[gritty inlet]

They will have at best a third the power of an alamo

The Alamo is based on the arrow IV

As is the antiship missile

Odds are it would have a quarter the power

So like....

2 damage

Or uh

Well idk tbh

Davey crocket in space is the Alamo

[opaque totem]

The Alamo isn't a top of the line nuke though

You can pack more power with higher tech

[gritty inlet]

Im just going yo kick long tom davey crocket nukes out of the back of a small craft at this point

[opaque totem]

You can absolutely have nuclear space mines

[gritty inlet]

The velocity imparted by my own velocity and the kick will be reasonably accurate for space bombing

[opaque totem]

Space bombing is also an option, I discussed it in this thread earlier

It's why most of the ship's are 52kt dropships

Lighter dropships are effectively immune to space bombing

[gritty inlet]

No they really aren't

The rules say yes my aggressive placement and point blank deployment say no

I could literally deploy battle armor the same way

Hand place a casaba on the hull

[opaque totem]

There's a massive hit penalty vs lighter dropships

[gritty inlet]

So send 6

You have 6 axis of movement

[opaque totem]

The penalties are very harsh, almost every attempt will miss vs a 52kt dropship

[gritty inlet]

So send 20

I have 32 tons i can do this all day

It's literally a stock kr61

They're absolutely everywhere

You aren't thinking low tech enough

[opaque totem]

You're limited to about 100 ASF bays on a Dropship

Though you can pack more in cargo

I suppose you could also make them lighter to pack them in cargo harder

[gritty inlet]

Who said anything about a dropship

25 tons of fuel i can launch from anywhere

Angry pirates kicking long tom shells at you from a cargo bay

No one is safe

[opaque totem]

Small Craft can do cross-system strikes, yes, but ASF burn too much and have limited life support besides

And Small Craft swarms are hard to defend against ASF, and are also hard to coordinate

[opaque totem]

Apply a +1 to-hit modifier for every point of velocity change by the target in the turn in which it is attacked (other than for evasive action, which applies its own modifier; see p. 77, TW).

Apply a +1 to-hit modifier for every point of velocity change by the attacker in the turn in which it makes the attack.

A +1 to-hit modifier applies for every 10,000 tons (or part thereof) the target masses under 100,000 tons.```

It is extremely bad against moving targets

And a 52kt Dropship gets +5 to hit defense just for existing

combined with the base +4 that's already +9

With zero movement, that means a 4 gunner will have 13 to hit and always miss

Space Bombing is useful in that it lets you slip nukes past AMS, but is limited

It is however devestating to 2.5 Megaton uberships because they don't get the +5

So they just get nuke bombed by ASF

Unless of course they keep moving

[gritty inlet]

Personally id recommend an aerodyne with dedicated small craft or a spheroid version craft to cover the gap in the firing arcs

[gritty inlet]

It will carry two of these and they'll keep pace with the craft

Total cost of one dropship and the two attatched small craft is 992 million

The theory behind this is that you get substantially more of your firepower down range

Against a single target area

And if need be you can stack them to cover the blind spots of the others

This can carry the same amount of pirhanas against a target give or take

Plus technically aside from like one hex an aerodyne has the same coverage as a spheroid

[gritty inlet]

Also i just came up with a crack smoking level of idea: refined dragons breath

Capital scale rockets, in other words

If everything is filled to the brim with ams and anti missile defenses, don't bother investing in silly things like reloading mechanisms

Throw an unholy amount of antiship missiles, ecm warheads, and the occasional santa ana missile or whatever nuclear weapons you wish into a bay and send them all out at once

[opaque totem]

Yes, that would be a logical tech development

[opaque totem]

Wdym, what gap

The Sheroid is firing in all directions

And the 3 direction missiles can fire into the non-capital missile arcs

[gritty inlet]

There's a one hex gap