Leg Destruction Discussion
#Leg Destruction
jagged pollen
elder rampart
I'm not fond of this one, from both an effects perspective and a fantasy perspective. With the power of the weapons in this game, blowing a leg clean off should be entirely possible and even common, especially against light mechs. The hip crit already represents the whole leg being fused as a barely useful crutch; once the structural integrity completely fails, that thing should be snapping off completely, under the weight of the mech itself if nothing else.
safe stirrup
What seems to be your issue with it. Its still 'mostly' what it used to be
elder rampart
Let me double-check the current numbers to make sure I'm not spouting nonsense...
My problem is that losing the leg entirely has no more significant movement penalties than just taking the hip crit.
safe stirrup
The biggest Dif is its not 1/2 MP and only +4 not +5
safe stirrup
My problem is that losing the leg entirely has no more significant movement pena...
Its still an auto fall and a MUCH more severe PSR.
Plus the chance to fall again if running
Even something like an 8/12 becomes a 4/6 with a very big debate if it actually wants to run
elder rampart
True, but the idea that a Locust can hop along at 40 kph with no Piloting checks needed while having a leg blown clean off is... questionable to me.
safe stirrup
[And thats assuming it successfully stands]
safe stirrup
True, but the idea that a Locust can hop along at 40 kph with no Piloting checks...
Thats what they are saying. Its not typically blown clean off
elder rampart
And I'm saying it should be possible to blow it clean off, and there should be appropriate results.
safe stirrup
I could see the boxcar crit being liked old leg blown off.
It does say rarely happens. Not that it never happens
ebon crane
Leg blown off is still leg blown off
The change is that leg destroyed is no longer fluffed as the blown off crit and is more reflective of the 'dead leg' we see more often in novels and mechwarrior
safe stirrup
Yup
elder rampart
Workable, even if I don't prefer it, but it does pose some questions. Namely, once the leg is destroyed, is there any way to blow off what remains and get the full effect? Kind of disappointing if you have to resort to critseeking and actively avoiding destroying the leg if you want to deal the full mobility hit.
safe stirrup
Probably not but honestly at that point just kill the mech
ebon crane
I don't think so, but it's still a +4 PSR and half movement plus an autofall
The stand check gets that +4 as well remember
And your ability to try again is really hampered
safe stirrup
And even if you do stand youre still incredibly slow
pallid lance
Wait, if your leg is destroyed, shouldn't the effect be the same as a hip crit?
As far as mobility is concerned, I mean.
safe stirrup
Wait, if your leg is destroyed, shouldn't the effect be the same as a hip crit?
Ish. It has some other effects too. Like the auto fall and +4 PSR
ebon crane
Yeah it's the same but with worse additionals
elder rampart
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the playability or the tactics involved, at least not primarily. I'm concerned about the realism/fantasy/suspension of disbelief. If I shoot a Locust in the leg with a Gauss rifle, I want its leg to come off. If it's reduced to a twisted ruin but can still be walked on, I want the ability to subsequently shoot it off completely, whether deliberately or by accident.
Maybe I'm trying to capture the mech, maybe I just want salvage, maybe I want the opportunity to beat it with its own leg, but the image remains.
safe stirrup
Gameplay =/= Realism
pallid lance
Mechanically, what effect would that have, Atlas?
safe stirrup
Thats a pretty prevelant thing in BT
safe stirrup
Mechanically, what effect would that have, Atlas?
If its a 4/6 it becomes a 2/3
elder rampart
Mechanically, what effect would that have, Atlas?
Pretty much what we have in the current printed rules, honestly.
pallid lance
Yeah, you can always have the GM or whatever say, Sure, you called shot low, and you hit. The leg is severed.
elder rampart
I'd be willing to a accept a harsher midpoint, like movement is reduced to 1/4 with a minimum penalty of 3. It just feels wrong for it to be the same speed penalty as just having the leg frozen.
ebon crane
Yeah for the purposes of tournament or standard play, which is what these are angling for, I think it's a good change, but battletech is at its best with stakes in a campaign setting with a gm who allows that kind of thing
safe stirrup
I'd be willing to a accept a harsher midpoint, like movement is reduced to 1/4 w...
But that is what they are saying is that the leg IS basically frozen
ebon crane
So I get the complaint and I agree generally, but I think for the new Standard Rules this is a good change
safe stirrup
Blowing it off is the exception
Its like dragging along a numb leg
[Having been there myself it sucks]
ebon crane
I wonder how much of that is mechwarrior
Because that's the biggest onramp for battletech
elder rampart
It definitely feels like them trying to move toward the compromise they made to represent it in Mechwarrior.
elder rampart
But that is what they are saying is that the leg IS basically frozen
I understand that that's the justification they're using, but I say again that if that's what leg destruction represents, I want there to be a further option to fully blow the leg off, with appropriate results.
pallid lance
I guess they could put that in wherever the new TacOps is.
safe stirrup
I understand that that's the justification they're using, but I say again that i...
Thatd be a TacOps equivalent
pallid lance
It's a thing that matters to like a tiny percentage of games.
safe stirrup
This is Standard rules
Just like old ammo explosions will probably end up in TacOps
elder rampart
Mm. I guess it works fine as a less harsh onboarding option for new players.
thick shadow
I'd be willing to a accept a harsher midpoint, like movement is reduced to 1/4 w...
Remember too that if this holds true with immobile that #midgards slow heavies.
A 3/5 getting a borked leg is now considered immobile rather than it only happening at a 2/3
ashen sage
a 12/18 locust with 1 leg is till 6/9, fun times. Truthfully, maybe 1/4 speed instead of 1/2 for a leg destruction. Hip already does 1/2.
thick shadow
I dont see how a seized up hip is worse than the whole leg gone though
ashen sage
lost leg is still worse than hip in these rules, i'm saying make losing a leg worse with 1/4 walk instead of 1/2
thick shadow
Read that as 1/4 loss not 1/4 left lol oops
safe stirrup
I think the additional penalty for leg loss is already bad enough.
And even in the case of the Locust. A Locust suddenly being a 6/9 is already dead
thick shadow
That +4 psr and half speed is owwwww
safe stirrup
Yup
Half speed to a minimum of 2.
So 2/3 mechs [although rare] become immobile from a single lost leg
ashen sage
yeah, i dont like that. someone brought up the same thing about a hip reducing a 2/3 mech to immobile. it's likely we'll see both get a "to a minimum of 1" addition I'd think.
safe stirrup
yeah, i dont like that. someone brought up the same thing about a hip reducing a...
I think thats actually the intention
Since the new immobile rules specify being reduced to 0 MP through dmg makes you immobile
That means they intend there to be ways to do it
ashen sage
yeah, they specify losing both legs (or all 4 for quads) is immobile
also, hip/leg destroyed + 1 upper or lower actuator on opposite leg would also make any 2/3 or 3/5 biped mech immobile
a single leg/hip doing it feels real bad
safe stirrup
a single leg/hip doing it feels real bad
To be fair thats ONLY for 2/3s
Which are the rare exception
somber nova
Further hits on the destroyed leg maybe roll for a crit with a +3 and on a 12 (so 9 or higher) the whole thing still comes off. These crits wouldn’t transfer inward, you still transfer the damage normally.
empty knot
I think the idea is that you're left with a stump, basically
safe stirrup
Even on current rules you can try to stand multiple times
thick shadow
Tends to hurt the pilot lol
empty knot
Is a TN of 8 really 28%? That sounds off
No, it's like 42%
rocky monolith
9+ is 28%. 8+ is 42%
thick shadow
So wouldn't that make total +3 then?
dull nova
We are Mechwarrior 4 status
ashen sage
I mean, it's always been funny that a mech was not crippled by losing a leg alone, so this brings it more into the position of just heavy damage instead of crippled.
empty knot
I suppose we never had "blown-off legs" be a thing in the same way arms are
stiff bane
Workable, even if I don't prefer it, but it does pose some questions. Namely, on...
Right now there is not (AFAIK), and at least one other person pointed that out as well elsewhere.
stiff bane
I suppose we never had "blown-off legs" be a thing in the same way arms are
blown-off leg as a crit result is a thing, but comes up a lot more rarely since you can't take a biped leg off by destroying a torso (although you can take a quad's front leg off that way)
compact palm
Honestly: This is a dumb change. Arm destruction is still the arm getting blown off, torso destruction is still the torso getting blown off (and any arm dropped to the ground), so why is leg destruction not the leg getting blown off? What's going to happen to 12s on the crit chart, only arms get popped off now? A 2/3 mech now has more MP from losing an entire leg than from suffering a hip crit, what the heck? Similarly Quads are still losing 2 or more MP from each hip crit, but only 1 from a destroyed leg? (but see my complaining in the quad section about how the rules are unclear) How is a Locust staying 4/6 after a leg has been turned into a dragging lump of metal? If you're copying MWO/MW5 (and you are with this rule, don't even try to deny it) that's way faster than anything with a ruined leg moves there. And if it's become a big lump of fused metal, why is it still an auto-fall instead of a PSR to stay standing (especially for quads and mechs that are already standing still?)
Maybe if you kept both leg destruction and leg slagging, and made the penalty for a slagged leg “reduced by 3/4ths base MP round up, or -3 MP (whichever is greater)”, this might make sense. But as a replacement for the current rules this is just bad.
Overall very bizzare change that doesn't make sense realistically, do not like.
safe stirrup
Honestly: This is a dumb change. Arm destruction is still the arm getting blown...
Arm destruction never states that its technically getting blown off. You just cant do anything with it because its destroyed. In order for it to get blown off, it either needs a 12 crit or the torso blown out.
As for the auto fall thats actually easy to explain. Have your leg suddenly cease responding when youre standing on it. See how long you stay standing.
Ill save you the trouble, you typically dont.
compact palm
If it's ruined to the degree you can't even use it as a peg leg then you're sure as heck not hopping at 1/2 base speed
safe stirrup
The thing is that initial moment of loss is going to kill your balance. Thats why you fall
Once youve adjusted yourself you can walk on a dead leg
[Ive legit had to do it myself]
You just need to get your center of balance back, and determine how to stand/walk/etc
thick shadow
As for the auto fall thats actually easy to explain. Have your leg suddenly ceas...
Oooh that could be a fun alternative rule.
Either its a PSR or you go immobile for 1 round
Not saying anyone would want to but it might be interesting
glass river
This looks like potentially most major of mobility changes and i'm not sure how i feel about it. From gameplay perspective, it may be a good idea to make destroyed leg less of a "basically dead" to some degree (since it kind of more likely to happen than "instant death" hits), but maybe not that much. I leaning to think that running with a destroyed leg is too generous (even with a PSR) and should remain completely forbidden. Combined with everything else, it may end up like a fine compromise (half walk MP and can't run + PSR mod and all other stuff).
To the whole fluff/lore discussion about "is destroyed leg missing or a numb piece of junk" i can only add that it may be possible for a mech with a missing leg to move by jumping on one leg.
Also, the ideas about having two degrees of destroyed, representing difference between completely missing and disabled leg, are, IMO, really bad for gameplay. Its confusing, overly complicated and an idea about crit slots on a destroyed leg straight up breaks damage resolution flow.
Destroyed component is destroyed, and there shouldn't be multiple types of destroyed. Thats a rules fundamental that really should not be touched.
thick shadow
To the whole fluff/lore discussion about "is destroyed leg missing or a numb pie...
Should you get a +1 to aim for "jumping?" Lol
glass river
Should you get a +1 to aim for "jumping?" Lol
Game rules wise, +1 from walking MP is a +1 from walking MP.
Fluff wise, think of exact reasoning however you like.
My point is that fluff wise, rules can be interpreted as you see fit. If you think that AC/20 leaving something after hitting a Locust leg is unreasonable, imagine it jumping on one leg.
A bit offtopic, but i vaguely remember that CamOps(?) has an actual SPA about jumping on one leg
compact palm
I can't see a mech hopping on one leg at 43kph, I'm going to be honest
Or for the more extreme end, a Fireball hopping at 85 kph
1/2 base MP is just absurdly generous, and this is assuming they can't Run.
ebon crane
Honestly: This is a dumb change. Arm destruction is still the arm getting blown...
Damage transfer implies this is not the case
compact palm
Damage transfer represents "you hit something, what's the closest thing to what you would have hit"
safe stirrup
I can't see a mech hopping on one leg at 43kph, I'm going to be honest
People can run pretty fast with a limp leg. Sure not mega record speeds but comparatively if a person can do it, a mech probably could too.
stiff bane
really it felt more like old leg destruction was "You might as well just eject" since you're nearly immobile, even the Hopper SPA barely helped
so the idea here is to make it less like that, but arguing about how much less is fair
I will also note that for quads in particular, the "Wait, why is having one leg destroyed less penalizing than having a hip crit?" existed in TW rules as well
at least in terms of MP
compact palm
Yeah, and it was silly there as well
Tarantula going from 8/12/8 to 4/6/8 after taking a PPC to a leg, then to 7/11/6 after another hit to the same leg.
stiff bane
So how would you suggest fixing that?
empty knot
really it felt more like old leg destruction was "You might as well just eject" ...
The Hopper SPA is, and likely always will be, garbage
It is a minor benefit in an extremely specific situation that you would still want to avoid if at all possible
It's funny, at least?
compact palm
So how would you suggest fixing that?
I mentioned my idea in the hip actuator chat, namely making the first hip crit for quads only -1 MP, the same way the first leg lost is -1 MP. All PSR penalties still apply in full.
safe stirrup
-1 MP feels way too lax. Thats just my opinion though
compact palm
Given it's what they have for the full leg getting rekt, it seems in line
safe stirrup
Oh duh. Youre talking quads. Yeah thats fair
compact palm
yeah, for bipeds that would be too minor for hip damage (unless you're an urbie, bombard, or anni)
thick shadow
Aye but those tend to go immobile with a hip hit XD
stiff bane
Pinning for visibility due to its relevance to this particular subthread: https://battletech.com/playtest-battletech/feedback-discussion/topic/vote-leg-destroyed-or-blown-off/
Voice your opinions on having both statuses, new/less harsh "leg destroyed" only, or not liking either of those options.
dapper gulch
should it also be posted in the announcements for the rest of the channel to take notice?