#EXPLOSION DAMAGE CAP

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

sudden vale
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Look, if everyone else gets $500 and I get left out because I'm too small, I'd be pretty pissed

finite sail
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Thats an entirely different situation.

sudden vale
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that is basically what we have here

finite sail
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No its not

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This is "Everyone is getting 500 bucks, but you pay three times as much for everything"

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Everyone is getting the same benefit, you just have other issues at play that make the benefit less beneficial to you

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The other issues in this case being that you are naturally brittle

bleak hound
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Why cap ammo explosions is this like an optional rule?

finite sail
finite sail
sudden vale
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I would link the playtest page explaining things but battletech.com is down

finite sail
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Ammo explosions are being changed to 20/10/1 damage depending on if you have CASE or not

sudden vale
hazy drift
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Also in general the flat explosion hit favors heavier units. If a hit barely goes internal and triggers an explosion, the lighter unit is out a torso and the heavier unit is hanging on. Sometimes there’s another hit incoming and it doesn’t matter. But sometimes it’ll give that unit an extra round or two, and the heavier you are, the more likely you are to get that extra time.

finite sail
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@bleak hound

image.png
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In case you cant load it

finite sail
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In a side torso, if any damage goes internal, even a 100 tonner is losing the torso. Unless they have CASE. which it doesnt really matter at that point

bleak hound
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I don't pray for crits in BattleTech for ammo explosions to do nothing

sudden vale
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It literally does favor heavier units and I'm tired of this continuous and silly denial that it doesn't

finite sail
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Since if the mechs in question have CASE, then they are all just losing a torso

finite sail
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But TACs are the rare exception

white delta
finite sail
sinful fulcrum
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okay since I don't play without them, the only way to get a TAC in normal TT is to take it to the CT, yes?

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I play with floating crits

finite sail
bleak hound
sinful fulcrum
finite sail
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Where more apt than not ammo doesnt exist anyways

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EXCEPTION. Side arc

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Side arc TACs the side torso

white delta
finite sail
bleak hound
finite sail
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Cause now you can VERY easily rip into its CT

bleak hound
finite sail
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A mech with no side torso being shot in the side now gets hit in the CT on 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11

bleak hound
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And heavily favors heavy mechs

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What...

finite sail
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See the other rule change

bleak hound
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Why is cgl like this

finite sail
white delta
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Yes thats what we discussed. Side hits favor faster mechs, explosion caps favor big mechs. If youre both light AND slow, sucks to be you

sudden vale
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and if you're big and fast, you're living large

sinful fulcrum
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Charger life

bleak hound
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Yet more eratta for me to ignore yay

white delta
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Joyous Highlander Bagpipes

finite sail
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'large'

sinful fulcrum
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if highlander is fast to you I don't want to know what slow is

white delta
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More the jets for mobility and positioning

finite sail
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What is a highlander? 5/8/5?

sinful fulcrum
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7/11/7

finite sail
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Oh dang. Not bad.

sinful fulcrum
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right?

white delta
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Oh man blitzkriegs

sinful fulcrum
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not bad for a 90 tonner

white delta
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They gonna be fun

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Gotta try a blitzkrieg

bleak hound
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What how is a Highlander 7/11/7

finite sail
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[its not]

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Its 3/5/3

bleak hound
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I can get 7 hex jump

idle wind
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5/8/7 sure

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Just use iJJ

finite sail
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You cant get a 5/8 Highlander

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Its 90 tons

hazy drift
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Mmm. 4T IJJs.

ocean prairie
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4/6/7 remains the true king of assault mech movement profiles

idle wind
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Wings? Lol

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I mean you CAN do 1/2/11

ocean prairie
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you can do a lot of stuff with customs and MJBs

idle wind
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But yeah @bleak hound the two changes have been split for discussion but the test is for both to change at the same time

bleak hound
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Can we just get cgl to stop dumbing down the game

white delta
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If this is dumbing down to you...

ocean prairie
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I wouldnt say the game is being dumbed down at all. but hey. the feedback forum exists for dissenters as much as supporters

idle wind
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The intent for this bit was to improve general survivability not necessarily dumb it down

hazy drift
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Nah MG ammo has been ridiculous forever

ocean prairie
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when it comes back online

idle wind
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Did we silksong the BT webpage?

finite sail
ocean prairie
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it crashed around this time yesterday and is still down

finite sail
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Ive seen ALL the rules.

ocean prairie
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apparently its a provider side issue

hazy drift
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Maybe I didn’t buy enough plastic…

sudden vale
idle wind
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Where are those?

finite sail
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Going over 400 requires a large engine

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And those things are HEAVY

idle wind
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Oh larges

sudden vale
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Basically TacOps has rules for engine ratings above 400, they are extremely heavy and never really worth it

idle wind
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I didn't realize those were experimental lol

hazy drift
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Even the 4/6/7 has was less gun than you want at 85t and is incredibly tight on crits.

idle wind
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Still better than a charger?

bleak hound
hazy drift
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They did anyway

finite sail
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Yeah. They did all do the same damage before. Death

hazy drift
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All the damage without case, kill the location/ST with case.

bleak hound
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I know but they are both massive changes

finite sail
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Ive played a few games with these rules and the others. They didnt really feel all that different

sinful fulcrum
finite sail
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We even had an Atlas get an ammo explosion. It 'survived'

sudden vale
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But if you want to take a Highlander and make it 5/8/8, by *gawd * you can do it! You just have, after adding endo steel, 1 ton left to get all the armor and weapons you need. Can make it two tons with a small cockpit, or a whole five with an interface cockpit and removing your 5 ton gyro.

ocean prairie
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sounds like a great Solaris Gladiator

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for a whole... one match

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just DFA every round. what do you have to lose

finite sail
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Said Atlas took the ammo explosion from a TAC in his side torso. Suddenly his side torso has 0 armor. The two speedy flankers we had said "You're next" and proceeded to put him in a very precarious situation.

sudden vale
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oh, if you use a clan XXL and an interface cockpit you can even free enough crits and tonnage for a partial wing, but this 5/8/9 90 ton monstrosity with 0.5t of armor is decidedly off topic and probably an affont to god and man

ocean prairie
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one point of armor per location is surely enough

hazy drift
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All on the cockpit I think in case you fall on it. Won’t help much anywhere else.

finite sail
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Enough with the side topic. Please on topic

bleak hound
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I would prefer this be an optional rule instead of erasing decades of bad decisions like ct case

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Admit it never made sense instead of retroactively trying to fix it and make mg ammo make sense

finite sail
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Its not going to do that

white delta
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Nah stackpole should be the optional

finite sail
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Stackpole is optional

white delta
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Yes

finite sail
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CT ammo explosion is still going to suck.

white delta
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Absolutely

finite sail
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Cause even if you survive, ALL YOUR ARMOR IS GONE

sinful fulcrum
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I thought it just damages internals

finite sail
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No

sinful fulcrum
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it removes all the armor of a location?

white delta
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Even lights with case arent getting out free, like the piranha

finite sail
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If you do not have CASE. It removes all Armor.

bleak hound
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I like it It's goofy that for 90% of the setting ammo boxes were fatal

finite sail
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If you have CASE. It removes rear armor

sinful fulcrum
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why are people complaining then

sudden vale
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Rear armor only for torsos

finite sail
sinful fulcrum
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probably because not an "instant kill"

sudden vale
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CASE isn't needed for it to be rear armor only

finite sail
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Ah yeah., It is just rear armor.

bleak hound
finite sail
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Oh no. You mean that mech they paid 1800 BV for can now actually you know, earn its 1800 BV >.> instead of dying to some random TAC roll?

sinful fulcrum
bleak hound
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This also hella doesn't help vees

finite sail
sinful fulcrum
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do we even know the rules for vehicles yet

finite sail
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Legit 0

sinful fulcrum
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I thought this was just mechs

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and vehicles are coming later

finite sail
white delta
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Just mechs for this round

finite sail
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We have abysmal armor anyways XD

bleak hound
finite sail
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And only have to get CASE once

finite sail
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Literally how

bleak hound
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By comparison is what I meant

finite sail
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IT CHANGES NOTHING

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Tanks have 10 IS at the most

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Ammo explosions ALWAYS kill them

white delta
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Vehicular case just makes them salvageable

finite sail
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Sorry. 20 at the most with Super Heavies

floral sentinel
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Which is fair for how a tank usually works, and most other vehicles tbh

finite sail
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But for Vees, CASE is basically CASE II.

bleak hound
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Ammo explosions should be the one true equalizer. No matter the tonnage they should be hell.

finite sail
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20 dmg internal is nothing to scoff at

bleak hound
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This buffs heavies barely changes locusts and doesn't help vees

finite sail
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And if 1 bin chains another, that kills all but the absolute largest mechs

finite sail
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How many times do I have to say it XD

sudden vale
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I and others strongly disagree with that perspective when everything is competing to be used

bleak hound
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Yes. I explicitly said it changes nothing with vees

finite sail
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Technicaly you said it doesnt help vees.

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Which yes could mean it doesnt change anything either

finite sail
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Like im sorry. If suddenly you think light mechs are worse because they cant survive an ammo explosion, thats a very weird point to draw your opinion from. When there are many many other things you are getting a light for rather than soaking damage

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If your light mech is being hit, the ammo explosion is probably the least of its concerns

bleak hound
floral sentinel
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Yeah, the new rule definitely just feels like you're going to get your bv out of heavier mechs, this might actually push me away from my inherent bias towards pure laser builds.

finite sail
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45 ton XL mechs can survive a CASEd TAC

hazy drift
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They are all over 40 tons

ocean prairie
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anything lighter than 40 tons is probably losing the side torso if it gets hit anyways

hazy drift
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Depends on what with

floral sentinel
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Also I can think of a few of the heavier lights, stuff in the 30-35 tons range almost definitely have more than 10 internal in a side torso, maybe not much

finite sail
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All SF meks can survive a CASE ammo explosion, but thats not any different to old rules

finite sail
floral sentinel
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Ah, oh well

hazy drift
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Rando SRM hit, single MPL TAC.

bleak hound
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I mean not losing side torsoes to ammo explosions just feels wrong its an entire ton of ammo it should hurt

floral sentinel
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I never claimed to have perfect memory

finite sail
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Basically everything DOES lose a side torso

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Only a 100 ton mek wont

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And thats only if its a TAC

ocean prairie
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without CASE*

finite sail
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With CASE it goes all the way down to 45 tonners

bleak hound
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Yewaah i was thinking with case since it explicitly just contains the damage

finite sail
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It doesnt contain it

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It vents it

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Basically all ammo explosions are vented now.

bleak hound
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That's case ii

hazy drift
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Again, it’s a 1-2 point bleed through instead of a TAC it pushes you up to 55-60T to just hang onto your ST

finite sail
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They are saying its everything now. Thats the point

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The CASEs just make it less impactful

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Yeah. If you're taking any actual damage to cause the crit, the amount of meks that dont lose the ST from the ammo explosion quickly shrinks

bleak hound
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I honestly wish theyd do this as like an era thing instead i genuinely doubt vented ammo bins aren't Lostech

finite sail
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And god forbid multiple ammo explosions

hazy drift
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75t+ the bigger you are the better your chance to hang onto it for at least another round.

finite sail
bleak hound
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So is pretty much everything they lost... But whatever

finite sail
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Most of the other LosTech isnt

bleak hound
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I play introtech without TAC it seems like all of you do play using TAC

finite sail
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Floating crits isnt

white delta
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Currently playing campaign, 2 years running from 3025

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Floating crits

bleak hound
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Wait isn't the side torso crit in the side table...

finite sail
floral sentinel
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Yup TACs are just the side you're shooting into by default correct?

finite sail
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Ye

white delta
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TAC wothout floating is CT and side torsos right? On a 2?

finite sail
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Ye

white delta
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So side hits make that a slight bit more common

finite sail
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Ish but yeah

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And not really more common. Same commonality

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In relation to the old tables, the TAC slot isnt changing

white delta
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Oh yeah cause its only the 2 result regardless of facing

finite sail
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So the chance of getting a TAC hasnt changed

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And where it goes, hasnt changed

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[Only Vees have other possible TACs]

floral sentinel
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The playtest hit location rules would remove the side TACs correct?

finite sail
white delta
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I dont think so

sudden vale
finite sail
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Its said if you shoot from the flank, the 2 slot is still a crit for that side

hazy drift
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(Aero thresholds check for TACs)

ocean prairie
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CT hits convert to side TACs while flanking IIRC

bleak hound
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Ew nope yeah no you can't convince me this pair of changes is ok. Getting If i play with TAC i expect side crits im out i will literally glue the old pages over the new one. If you like it all to you but 🫡

finite sail
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Dont discuss other units here since it is uncertain how these rules will [if at all] impact said units

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[At least dont discuss in depth]

finite sail
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The heck are you even talking about

sudden vale
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I am not a fan of these changes but I will still be playtesting them with the local group and holding off on making my opinions known to them beforehand, because untainted data is valuable to CGL

finite sail
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Nothing is changing for TACs

ocean prairie
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its just a slightly different conversion for the exact same odds and results

floral sentinel
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I'm definitely planning on playing with the new rules to see how it feels

bleak hound
finite sail
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Whats your problem?

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[This is REALLY a topic for the other forum, not this one]

hazy drift
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You do seem to be protesting that they’re changing a rule you already ignore.

bleak hound
finite sail
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Oh. Tables as in game tables

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Nvm

bleak hound
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I like both ways tbh. It can be frustrating to lose a mech first turn but it's also part of the game and can leave you with some good stories

ocean prairie
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its fun to crit an Atlas and negate 2k BV in an instant. its also utterly miserable to have 2k BV wiped out by snake eyes

bleak hound
ocean prairie
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that can often just lose you a game on turn one

finite sail
ocean prairie
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sure, its thematic. but its also not particularly fun

bleak hound
idle wind
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Im still thinking the biggest change is gonna be on Clan Tech side given "the whole thing" is CASE

finite sail
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Yeah. Clan meks are going to be . . . sigh Really annoying

bleak hound
ocean prairie
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being able to survive gauss rifles or heavy lasers exploding in your arms is going to be great

floral sentinel
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Aren't clan mechs already in Very annoying territory depending on era?

bleak hound
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Head, ct, st

idle wind
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Ooooh that makes for a FUN build

ocean prairie
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not many clan base weapons with hyperlasers

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so its a corner case

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there are what... three?

finite sail
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[which is better than hit location for head but]

white delta
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Hyperlaser in a flippy arm with case lol

finite sail
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This rule doesnt change that

bleak hound
idle wind
ocean prairie
finite sail
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No

idle wind
hazy drift
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Still out your Gauss Rifle too.

finite sail
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The base rule has 0 impact on Gauss.
The CASE rule reduces it by 5 dmg. So some impact, but not a lot

white delta
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Gauss explodes for 15, cap is 20 or 10 with case

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Heavy gauss on the other hand

finite sail
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Now. It does mean it gives you a reason to CASE basic Gauss

ocean prairie
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with clan CASE on the arms a good few mechs with gauss will survive the GR going up

finite sail
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Oh yeah. IS CASE cant go in arms. XD

hazy drift
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The arm will basically hang on for an extra hit in the 45-65 T range depending on armor bleed through or TAC

white delta
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CASE II might help with AP Gauss spammers

ocean prairie
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CASE II can. not the base variant

hazy drift
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Pilot still dies.

idle wind
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Non-CASE gauss on a 30t arm will go straight to CT.

finite sail
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And thats assuming its a TAC

ocean prairie
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I'm always assuming its a TAC. if the armor is gone everything breaks. thats business as usual

white delta
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Pilot is still mush tho

finite sail
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TAC to the arm requires the floating crit rules

white delta
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What if pilot hits were reduced corresponding to case as well?

finite sail
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Otherwise you cant crit the arm

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Well. Cant crit the arm without doing actual damage to the Internals

sudden vale
idle wind
bleak hound
# finite sail Here is the thing. What do you want more. Good stories. Or happy players

I think both are actually considered the same goal. Losing a mech to a random crit or headshot last minute when you've basically already won is a classic. It feels like you can basically always win with a really good roll and theres nothing to blame or get mad at considering the requirements for them involve 12 and 2s. You can have a good time whether you win or lose

sudden vale
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Heavy Gauss is 25

white delta
idle wind
sudden vale
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HAGs are 10/15/20, iHGR is 30

finite sail
sudden vale
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Yeah that's straight from the BMM

idle wind
finite sail
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In your previous statement, the old ammo explosion would create a great story, For you. But for the other player, probably not

idle wind
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So yeah half gauss boom

sudden vale
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There was a debate about it the other day at the shop between people saying 15 and 20, so it's fresh on my mind after looking it up then

white delta
idle wind
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I mean cap 1 is fine but the other might help too.

((Note haven't gotten to play these which has more impact than theorycrafting))

white delta
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Cap 20/10/5 just seems like a smooth progression easier to rememeber for my potato head players haha

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We dont use Case II era tech much though

ocean prairie
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I dont like the idea of nerfing CASE II

bleak hound
finite sail
dull gazelle
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I don't mind bad luck, I do mind instantly losing a mech solely because I dared to bring an ammo consuming weapon.

bleak hound
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Knowing you can win with a good roll even if you're already down keeps me engaged

finite sail
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You can still golden BB engine.

sudden vale
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I am much less fustrated by Battletech being !!BATTLETECH!! and RNG screwing me when playing in person then when I'm playing against the bot on MM.

finite sail
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Thats still a thing >.>

idle wind
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Frigging single AC/2 to the CT

white delta
floral sentinel
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IMO losing your formation's center piece on turn 1 or 2 can really just kill the game for you. I ruined a player's game with a lucky headshot to a king crab that dropped it on turn 1, so it's very player dependent

finite sail
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Ive seen so many players at Demos get frustrated with BT because a TAC killed them due to Ammo explosion, or Golden BB, or whatever

sudden vale
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The first is a story and you share it with other people who are getting amusement out of it, the second is THAT DARN CHEATING PRINCESS TACING ALL MY MECHS UNFAIRLY

idle wind
ocean prairie
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when its Princess she's always cheating

bleak hound
white delta
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Oh yes, followup crit chance from the ammo internal damage to maybe chain the effect

finite sail
bleak hound
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Or give them edge points

finite sail
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Im a demo agent. Im at booths.

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Ive demoed for well over 50 players in a single day. Its . . . Tiresome

sudden vale
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Nevermind that it's the fourth time I've been sprayed by an LB-20X set to cluster despite my armor being intact this game, CLEARLY that 45th to-hit roll being a TAC is princess cheating

bleak hound
finite sail
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Yeah. Im a demo agent. Trying to get more and more new players

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Its also why I already know all the rules that are coming. That I really wish I could talk about

white delta
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Soon (tm)

floral sentinel
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Also for my money, I think this ammo explosion change is less contentious than the hit location one, but I'm still going to try both of them out

white delta
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Looking forward to 'gear' doc

ocean prairie
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on the one hand, I want you to spill all the beans. on the other hand, I am busy as hell testing these two changes alone.

finite sail
ocean prairie
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oh, i know

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but my feelings care not for legality

bleak hound
white delta
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You basically still do

bleak hound
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I don't like "basically" i like fireball

white delta
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You might be able to salvage or init-sink though

finite sail
sudden vale
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Yeah I've also got kinda an idea of some stuff due to things I'm helping Xotl with, but that's gonna have to wait for more public releases. Because I ain't a snitch, because this thread is about this specific change, and because please CGL don't hit me with that NDA I signed I'll be good I swear!

finite sail
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Not all players like that

white delta
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A third of the mech gets vaporized, pretty sure theres a fireball somewhere

floral sentinel
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Also with a TAC ammo explosion you roll to see if it chains multiple bins correct?

ocean prairie
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each explosion causes another crit check

finite sail
white delta
floral sentinel
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That's what I thought

finite sail
bleak hound
floral sentinel
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Curse my inability to "optimally" place ammunition

ocean prairie
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can we go back to the old way of playing autocannons, then?

finite sail
bleak hound
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But thats more of a cgl problem

white delta
finite sail
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These are rules going into TW and BMM

sudden vale
ocean prairie
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the mighty 5 damage autocannon

bleak hound
ocean prairie
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fear it

bleak hound
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Like... All the time

white delta
floral sentinel
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I can't, my ammunition must feed logically!

white delta
idle wind
ocean prairie
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six weeks of testing should produce a lot of interesting data

white delta
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Vigorous, healthy discussion

ocean prairie
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we're only about 24 hours in thus far

white delta
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Ive managed three games and thats probably all im gonna get in this test window

floral sentinel
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I should have a game Monday, and a friend and I can usually meet up once a week so that's at least 6 games of testing in

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Potentially more

ocean prairie
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I've got four in already. but odds are it wont be more than 1 a week going forward

white delta
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My usual victims are more wrapped up in the Kerensky DLC right now

sudden vale
# idle wind It is actually really neat to me that two of yall have seen the changes but dont...

This is part of why I'm trying to avoid biasing the locals before getting their opinions and experiences on it, as well as doing some in-person playtesting of my own. Plus some of them are more mechanically minded and used to houseruling than average so may have some novel suggestions of their own that CGL might like. The only thing that's gonna be a problem is getting the "always 5/8/5 75 ton max armor clan laservomit" player to try some other things for purposes of testing this.

idle wind
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I mean or use him as a "control" for the test

sudden vale
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...And also for the sake of our sanity, because it's frankly tiring and the closest he's been to trying something else has been swapping to iATMs so at this point I'm one more game of having to deal with him away from deploying the UM-AIV with the ammo load it had in its first canon game.

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||That being Davey Crockets||

idle wind
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Okay that made me laugh out loud

sudden vale
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Unfortunately that is unlikely to be helpful for testing purposes so I might just have to very intentionally play other players in the playtest period instead

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"how do the new side arc and ammo explosions work on a nuclear battlefield" is not the most useful use case to examine

idle wind
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Maybe. Though given jump las spam is kinda "meta" playing this against it will be good data too

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And honestly I would just introduce him to dual LTC CVs

sudden vale
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Yeah, there is that. Still demotivating when you have to deal with that week after week because you typically show up two hours later than everyone else thanks to job crap. While he's one of the few ones that can stay a bit later and play quick 3k games, which lets me at least get some proper BT action in.

idle wind
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Lol yeah.

Our group has fun with megamek cause we are usually in 8k games if not sometimes company v company or higher.

Game allows for big fight plus fire.

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Well that and we all live like 8+ hours away from each other

sudden vale
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That lateness to play is also part of why I'm going to try and avoid biasing the local playerbase, I can't provide as much useful data from my own play thanks to the job timing and "wow your locals all suspiciously agree with you" is how you get data thrown out for being biased.

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Should probably try and get the old college friends together when MM gets a test build up for these proposed changes, see how they like them and get some more play in myself. Just need to get past the arcane mess of Port Forwarding

idle wind
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I'm also hoping they get a nightly with the proposals since that will make the testing easier on me instead of doing on like VTT

haughty aspen
#

So, I wouldn't mind dividing the initial damage from an ammo explosion by 10, so a full ton of MG ammo does 40 damage, instead of 400, but capping it at 20 just seems like a way to kinda dumb down the game just a little bit. Dont have to watch your heat curve so closely when you know that your Machine Gun ammo isnt going to turn your Mech into a crater. It also makes it where heavier mechs just dont care as much, since they can survive a 20 point hit, where as a 30 tonner is basically scrap metal.

finite sail
idle wind
#

as far as watching heat its still a given PSR if you didnt CASE it and also OWWWW

finite sail
#

Also would make a lot of ammo pops entirely laughable [Lol 9 from AC2 even without CASE]

#

And again as stated before. There are a lot of collateral effects if your ammo pops even if its just 20 dmg [as Bolo stated]

#

Possible crits being one of those key things

idle wind
#

yeah without playing im most worried about this being pilot blender 2.0

haughty aspen
finite sail
#

20 INTERNAL damage at that

floral sentinel
#

Especially on stock 4/5 IS jockies

sudden vale
#

MG ammo is such a hilarious outlier it probably needs its own targeted fix anyway, honestly. Most ammo does ~100 damage in a ton. MG ammo does 400 in a ton, with the next closest that isn't another type of MG being MRMs with 240 a ton.

idle wind
#

difference between nuke up close and nuke far away.

also a bit of the XCOM karma too.

99% dead tends to stay at that 1%HP for a FREAKISHLY long time

#

the other is very much a lightswitch

#

dead or not dead

sudden vale
#

Any attempt to scale ammo explosions down to reasonable levels by reducing ammo explosion amounts needs to make an exception for MG ammo if they want other ammo explosions to be large enough to matter

haughty aspen
#

I always tend to think of things in terms of salvage. not so much combat ability

finite sail
#

And seeing your opponent have an ammo explosions core out 20 of their HP somewhere immediately makes you go "Oooh. Target" Which you combine with the other rule to drill into that side

haughty aspen
#

ammo explsion should leave nothing

#

unless its protected by CASE

floral sentinel
#

Yeah 20 damage, even 10 damage clearing your rear armor still makes something a clear target

finite sail
#

Im with Saklad on that. Blowout panels are OLD tech.

#

Its not hard to give pressure an easy out

haughty aspen
#

the way I play it, I would almost never lose another mech above 50 tons again. Ammo goes off, time to withdraw.

floral sentinel
#

I'm kinda reading the flavor as No CASE = Wet Ammo Storage, and both version of CASE are blowout panels of some kind

#

I'm almost certainly biased in favor of these changes because I prefer later eras, FedCom Civil War and the like

finite sail
finite sail
#

Or 65+ tonners in the case of CT

floral sentinel
#

Fair enough

#

This change also kinda feels like it would pull tabletop and the novels more in line. In the novels I've read I don't really recall any mechs going down from pure ammo explosions. It's usually ammo going on top of the other pounding the mech has already taken

idle wind
finite sail
#

Also if people play with auto eject [which IMO should be default] most mechs are just going to eject anyways >.>

idle wind
#

Auto eject may need new rewrite after CASE change..... maybe.

1st boom and go feels really premature now

finite sail
#

Unless you re-enable it

proud kiln
#

I saw someone (a goonhammer writer) call the explosion damage cap rule a "make marauder good" rule and I'm 100 in agreement that that's the design goal

white delta
#

I think they missed the errata on side shot TACs

#

But Peri seemed rather reserved in his opinions

lament canopy
#

It's really not just the marauder, it's half the intro tech lineup

#

About a year ago I played a really long game of mekhq, and I noticed that, while salvaging lots and using mechs lots over a long period of time, almost every mech I had was an energy boat. Anything with lots of ballistics or missiles almost inevitably exploded before I could salvage it, or shortly afterward

white delta
#

Same has been slowly happening in my campaign over the last 2 years, im hoping this reverses that trend as well as increasing salvage potential

idle wind
#

And if that holds true they accomplished the goal lol

glad dock
#

Introtech and IS XLE designs with ammo actually becoming viable is honestly great.
I do hope they go all the way and make the CT count as always having CASE, or all the designs with CT ammo are going to look even worse by comparison. It's a kludge but the alternative is to either retcon a bunch of record sheets or to have them remain bad. Especially those with only a single ton of ammo and advanced tech are going to look weird as hell from an in-universe perspective. "Yeah, we could've made this way more survivable by adding CASE, but we chose not to."

finite sail
idle wind
#

I could seem them making CASE available in more locations but I also see Setsul's point.

glad dock
# finite sail I doubt they are gonna give the CT free CASE. That would make 0 sense. Even as i...

Everything below 65 tons will die from a TAC ammo explosion, and even bigger ones if it's from structural damage.
It's a legacy problem. There's a lot of designs with CT ammo that could have CASE and with these rules they absolutely should have it because it would be useful, but they don't because when they were designed CT CASE did nothing.

Like I said, either the kludge with free CT CASE, accepting that a bunch of design will remain bad, or retconning them all.
The goal seems to be to make existing designs viable, so the kludge wouldn't be that weird.

finite sail
#

Even with these changes

#

And as stated in general, that would change sheets. Which they are against

#

[Since that CASE would need a crit unless they did it like Clan CASE]

glad dock
sudden vale
#

I think they meant in the "do it like Clan CASE" sense, yes. Or really would be just "CT has a cap of 10" if added to the current rules since nothing transfers out of the CT anyway

glad dock
finite sail
#

I mean its a flaw of those mechs yes. Thats just what it is

#

And would add a needlessly complicated layer to the rule change

glad dock
finite sail
#

They didnt do anything about that

#

The change was not directed towards any particular builds. Its just a sweeping change

sudden vale
#

It rather decidedly was?

finite sail
#

IS XLE mechs are still [for the most part] have the same issue they did before

glad dock
#

I really don't believe that they had absolutely no goal in mind and just did it for the hell of it.

finite sail
sudden vale
#

How is this not specifically tailored to make caseless mechs with ammo more durable?

white karma
finite sail
#

Im talking beyond making ammo meks more durable

sudden vale
#

what world are you living in where that is not clearly part of the design intent

finite sail
#

Its not aimed at anything beyond ammo meks as a whole

glad dock
white karma
#

Yes.

finite sail
#

No particular weight. No particular build. Nothing

white karma
#

It's like single digit numbers, probably less than 5

#

But it's not 0

glad dock
#

Funnily enough, the 6D could simply be changed to have the same armour as the 7D.

finite sail
#

I mean the fact they went flat damage numbers shows they werent trying to make all builds viable [see the 2 day discussion about how these rules dont help light meks]

glad dock
#

It's not like any Locust is particularly sturdy, that just comes with the territory.

finite sail
#

Yeah. Thats my point. This change isnt meant to favor builds or make all of them viable. Its to streamline ammo explosions

glad dock
#

No

sudden vale
#

If it's not meant to favor builds but it does, then it wasn't built right

#

and it does favor builds

glad dock
#

If the goal was only to streamline them, they could've made the rule that non-CASEd is simply a guaranteed mech destruction. Much simpler.

sudden vale
#

one group gains benefits other groups do not

finite sail
#

Sorry. The main point was the increase survivability. As is the name of the playtest.
But flat values are unbiased and streamlined.

sudden vale
#

They're as """""unbiased"""" as a flat tax is, which is to say they screw over the little guy

finite sail
#

Ammo blows up. Take 20 dmg [typically]
Most of the other parts of figuring out damage will mostly be ignored cause typically your explosion will exceed 20

sudden vale
#

But we've been around this point a dozen times by now and I know you cannot understand my point or refuse to understand it

idle wind
glad dock
sudden vale
#

30ish, they said

finite sail
idle wind
#

They just dont agree

sudden vale
#

There's leaks that indicate what thing but they're leaks so I'm not gonna speak of them

finite sail
glad dock
sudden vale
#

the 30ish they've said are related to "one piece of equipment getting changed", so it's some statistic printed on a record sheet for a rather rare piece of equipment

idle wind
finite sail
# sudden vale But we've been around this point a dozen times by now and I know you cannot unde...

Now that im on lunch i can continue.
I do understand your point. Here is the flaw of it.
With the current damage values 20/10/1, the values are high enough to be impactful, low enough to be survivable in some cases, and comparable enough to feel 'good'. CASE goes from being just meant to save your mek to, might even save your side torso.
If they did gor example 40/20/1, the base damage value would be so high it basically defeats the purpose of this change.
If they do it based on weights, youre gonna here complaints from the other side of the spectrum.
There is NO answer that is absolutely perfect for every single mek in the game.

And as I said before. 90% of the arguments you made only really apply in the case of a TAC anyways. Since if battle damage is involved, the chance of meks surviving rapidly shrinks.

sudden vale
#

And shrinks even more rapidly for the smaller mechs

finite sail
#

But typically [as Cat said before] light mechs are already dying to dmg before the ammo explosion. So it doesnt really change a whole lot for then anyways

#

And then as Bolo said. "Oh. The heavy mek survived his ammo explosion. Congrats, now one of his sides is a target." [In different words]

sudden vale
#

yeah while the medium is just outright dead just like they were before

finite sail
#

There is very little [if anything] that could be done that would change that without over exemplifying the problem on assaults and heavies

sudden vale
#

There very clearly is not, there have been several proposals for exactly that, but you've systematically dismissed every alternative and counterargument as "edge cases" or "too complicated"

#

so I'm just gonna go

finite sail
#

The damage based on structure would have people complain about unfair ammo explosion damage values [so same problem in a different direction].

#

While also being honestly clunky to explain in rules

#

This part is purely hypothetical, but do understand I say this all with the belief that these rules will probably translate straight to Vees. Which means guess what, vees dont survive. At all.
And im not complaining in the slightest.

glad dock
finite sail
#

The reason I say I assume itll straight translate is because thats already how it works. Vees use Mek ammo explosion rules with a few small addendums [all ammo detonates and CASE gets a bonus]

#

Oh and vees get crew stunned but that only matters if you have CASE

glad dock
#

And vehicles don't roll for crits and vehicle CASE doesn't work like CASE II because there's no damage at all. The rear armor getting damaged would be normal for CASE with the new rules, so even in that regard it's not similar to CASE II.
So basically, everything except the ammo exploding is different.

The vehicle ammo explosion rules will still have to be written separately unless they're changed massively. I don't see the new rules translating at all.

finite sail
#

Sorry. Shouldve said similar to CASE II.
And Vees do roll for crits? What fo you mean?

glad dock
#

After an ammo explosion.

finite sail
glad dock
#

Like, start to finish, the way you deal with an ammo explosion on a vehicle is entirely different.

finite sail
#

They just dont

finite sail
#

If you plugged in these new rules and didnt touch Vee rules at all. Theyd still work with 0 issue

#

Because the CASE addendum is in CASE itself.

glad dock
#

We must have vastly different versions of TW.

Ammunition: This result means the Combat Vehicle’s ammunition explodes. Unlike a ’Mech, where only a single slot explodes, the Combat Vehicle loses all its ammunition (see p. 125), excepting one-shot weapons. Count the total damage for all ammunition carried and apply the damage directly to the vehicle’s internal structure in the location struck. If the vehicle has CASE, apply the damage instead to its rear armor, with any excess damage ignored and the vehicle suffers a Crew Stunned result
No crit roll and CASE is most definitely explained.

finite sail
#

[And if you took it at face value the CASE vent dmg would be 10 x number of ammo bins]

glad dock
finite sail
#

So all the addendums for Vees are explained in that block

glad dock
finite sail
#

When i say CASE bit im not talking the actual equipment section. Im talking the sentence specifically talking about CASE

#

Cause as you said it just points you back to the crit

#

But even with all that, the rules would function with 0 changes

glad dock
#

Unsurprisingly, when you change a rule that has 0 overlap with a second rule, the second rule continues to work.

finite sail
#

It still has overlap. Because the CASE change for meks [10 max dmg from the explosion] can still translate over to the vee. Its just per bin. So as I said: 10 x bin count vented out the back.

#

Which is still a 'change'. It just doesnt require rewording

#

[And for base explosions no CASE would be 20 x bin possibly but it doesnt matter cause vee dies]

#

Nvm. That wont be needed cause base rule already does that

idle wind
#

Interestingly enough since CASE would shift it to rear armor thats a good survivability buff for the bigger vees too since capped at 10

#

You would want to reword the vee entry to not that its 10 per

#

Because as I read it you total damage first and then apply CASE effects.

glad dock
# finite sail It still has overlap. Because the CASE change for meks [10 max dmg from the expl...

That is an incredibly weird interpretation.

  1. Why would the mek rules now overrule the text that explains everything about how ammo explosion work for vehicles?
  2. Why would the 10 damage limit apply, but not that the damage is applied to structure?
    You're trying to build some weird hybrid of the new mek and old vee rules that would limit the damage to the rear armour, which isn't in either of those rules. It makes no sense.
#

Ammo explodes, you lose all rear armor. That's it. That's the one thing that is consistent between mek and vee CASE rules.

#

Even if purely for fluff reasons, I can't see that changing. There's simply no way to vent an explosion without putting a hole in the armor.

finite sail
idle wind
#

Soooo.... it kinda depends.

Vee specifically states as is that it applies damage to the rear armor and negates the rest.

The mek entry states that all armor in location is gone or rear armor if torso

#

So if the damage reduction is applied first (and capped after the damage is calculated) then theoretically vees would survive with armor

#

So you both are kinda right.

Also this is mek only with CV coming later so would have to be addressed then

finite sail
glad dock
white karma
glad dock
#

Also, CASE II rules include removing half the maximum armor, so the precedent is there.

white karma
#

Now, I don't know if this stuff is at a point where they're willing to accept different versions rather than just "go or no go" on the proposed new rules

idle wind
#

I figure toss it all at em and see what sticks lol

white karma
#

If the latter, then such an adjustment is off the table anyway.

idle wind
#

True

glad dock
#

I am generally in favour of the static limits, for simplicity and because bigger meks being better at weathering ammo explosions does make sense.
But I will not accept arguments along the lines that dynamic "simply can't be done" or anything like that.

idle wind
#

Long story short I feel like this will make big mechs feel bigger / invulnerable.

Is it potentially "unfair" to littles..... maybe.

But I already see myself modding my custom XL 6/9/6 hunchie to add CASE since it would actually DO something now. And being able to survive 1 more round to either roadblock or run is huuuuuge

sudden vale
finite sail
finite sail
sudden vale
#

so then the number will be right there on your sheet with no need to do the complicated math of "half, round up"

sudden vale
# idle wind Long story short I feel like this will make big mechs *feel* bigger / invulnerab...

Making CASE and IS XLs work together is easily the best part of this change to me, turns it from something that matters in campaigns in-universe that too many people dismissed as unimportant in their pickup games, to something that is now actually reasonable even in pickup games. I just wish the damage cap assiociated with it scaled so that there's even a chance for lighter stuff to survive instead of the flat 10 cap making it so only big boys do

glad dock
#

It's just generally good if ammo-using mechs are at least in the same ballpark of survivability as all-energy mechs.
There's obviously the walking ammo bombs that deserve to die, but effectively punishing everyone who dares to use a single autocannon doesn't make the game more fun.

The downside is that it'll make some clan meks that were definitely not having a hard time before an absolute pain to put down. On the other hand this might somehow make some of the 3k BV clanbominations able to consistently earn their BV back, which is arguably a good change.

sudden vale
finite sail
white karma
#

None of those are particularly insurmountable.

finite sail
#

No. But its a lot more clunky to explain than just 20/10/1 with the only variable being a piece of equipment

white karma
#

Plenty of other rules specify rounding, in particular.

sudden vale
#

They have changed that before and it'd be easy to just make the internal structure readout for a section with explosives something like (8/17) instead of just (17) if they were to do a proportional thing of some sort

sudden vale
glad dock
#

If halving a number that is literally printed on the record sheet is too much for someone, battletech might not be the game for them.

white karma
#

Yeah, other than the existing starting structure value, I don't think any sheet changes would be needed.

sudden vale
#

They may wish to try Alpha Strike, still gets the stompy but you don't have to do as much math

glad dock
#

Again, I am in favour of static limits for various reasons, but don't start with "this is way too complicated, can't be done"

finite sail
white karma
#

"It's clunky" basically reads as "it's more complex and therefore worse"

#

... Which isn't an invalid argument all else equal, but the assumption is that the extra complexity is trying to achieve something that would not be possible in a simpler manner

#

So then the argument becomes is the level of complexity worth the benefit, which is basically a matter of opinion

idle wind
#

10 damage still leaves even a 20t with 1 CT internal if no other IS damage

finite sail
sudden vale
#

which this change doesn't help at all, while it helps bigger mechs.

#

And strongly incentivizes throwing ammo to the arms in general

finite sail
idle wind
finite sail
#

Thats the risk of running an IS XL in the first friggin place

obtuse geyser
#

No CASE: 1 IS damage. 1 crit roll. Loss of ammo component.
CASE: 0 IS damage. 1 crit roll. Loss of ammo component.
CASE II: 0 IS damage. 0 crit rolls. Loss of ammo component.

It simple. It works for all tonnages. It's a huge buff to ammo weapons.

Ammo weapons need a huge buff. They have a massive swingy con compared to energy, and no corresponding pro. The easy simple way to fix that is to just massively reduce the con.

idle wind
#

Do you want SRM swarm boats? This is how you get SRM swarm boats.......

obtuse geyser
#

No record sheet change. Less of a problem for CT CASE units

sudden vale
#

Might be some clan light that does it but all the ones I can think of put it next to the weapons in the side torsos

idle wind
#

And yeah cLights i know of put em out on arms or torso.

Not many things ammo a CT. It's dangerous lol

sudden vale
#

And as I've said before on that: that still means heavies and assaults are getting an exception while lights are not, which is dumb

idle wind
#

I see it as appropriately thematic

finite sail
#

They arent getting an exception. Theyre getting their BVs worth of HP

#

And without CASE. Only a 100 tonner XL survives ON A TAC

#

With CASE itd what. A 65 tonner?

idle wind
#

45t

sudden vale
#

I see it as nonsense that you can't vent an explosion rapidly enough because someone picked an arbitrary value

finite sail
#

Its a very particular and very narrow case group to focus as the problem with the rule

idle wind
#

The new rules are REALLY nice to meds

sudden vale
#

They're not

#

they're really not

idle wind
#

I would say they are. Though im also judging more old -> new rather than laterally.

Old no CASE is dead.
New no CASE is alive.... barely

Old CASE is no XL
New CASE is keep everything above 45t. 50t if you stated taking IS damage.

finite sail
#

The only XL meks specifically that do not survive with CASE with the new rules is such a small margin.

#

And again. Thats assuming TACs

#

Like how many builds fall in that window, compared to the total number of builds across the spectrum

idle wind
#

Ive always seen this rule as countering BB TACs than just full survivability which it does well

sudden vale
#

It decidedly helps full survivability on assaults and heavies

idle wind
#

Oh sure. But those guys should be

sudden vale
#

it does not do so on mediums or lights (and doesn't even really offer golden BB protection to lights)

#

And I fundamentally disagree that it should be so biased in approach

#

We're not going to change each other's positions on that so it's just arguing over the math results

idle wind
#

.... didnt meant to reply to that one but rather the last statement

finite sail
#

Your lights are probably more concerned they were hit at all

idle wind
#

The way I see it Liao doesn't want lights to stay too squishy compared to bigs.

I say having bigs more chonk is good. Does do little for lights (but a goooood bit for med)

Raoz just likes it lol.

#

But I do also want to bring up this is in vacuum for JUST this change.

I also feel that lights are getting more of a buff than bigs on the other change which I also see as balancing it out

finite sail
white karma
#

I will say, in the old rules (where ammo explosion without CASE usually means a dead mech), larger mechs get it somewhat worse because it's a bigger chunk of your BV to lose in a single explosion.

#

You might be able to argue that losing an entire light mech winds up being similar to severely damaging (but not destroying) a larger mech, but I'm not sure if that math actually works out.

sudden vale
#

I think that depends heavily on what era you're grabbing your lights from

#

later era ones can be easily worth more than half the BV of a heavy or assault of their same era

white karma
#

Yeah.

finite sail
#

Unless it actually destroys the location it wouldnt be in nost cases [using rough math], since at least armor is 1 point to 1 bv. IIRC without double checking internals are the same. So if the mech doesnt lose the location its losing 20 BV + rear armor BV + the BV of the ammo. Compared to the light meks total BV.
But thats SUPER napkin math

#

If it actually destroys the torso [ignoring XL for a moment since those would all be dead meks] the value gets a LOT closer.

white karma
#

Also depends on exactly which axis of "fairness" we're trying to work on. "Ammo explosion is instant death" is fair in that the end state of the unit is the same, but the BV loss is not.

finite sail
#

With the current rules itll be similar BV loss in a lot, but not all cases [especially if XL is involved]

#

Not all primarily being non XL heavier meks

white karma
#

The structure based idea would similarly keep the effect on the unit similar (e.g. "ammo explosion with no CASE = lose a location, internal damage and armor loss on another") similar across weight classes, which the flat cap does not

sudden vale
#

Armor is 2.5, structure is 1.5, then you multiply by speed factor (typically 1.2 for most heavies and assaults, while 1.3-1.4 is normal for lights)

finite sail
#

Which speed factor I dont think ever gets to 2. Which for larger meks just health alone is more loss BV

sudden vale
#

some like the Dasher will even hit 1.5x multipliers, while the ANH and Urb are both at 1.1x

#

You can get it to 2 but it's a bit contrived to stack up a potential +10 worth of defensive modifiers

#

CPLS+Null-Sig on something that can get a +6 TMM would do it

#

Which, yeah, contrived

finite sail
#

Yeah. Thats a lot of custom min maxed nonsense xD

sudden vale
#

The DBV mod is just 1+ 0.1x (max TMM + max stealth/other to-hit bonus)

#

it does count MASC and supercharger at maximum output all the time, which is part of why those get so stupidly expensive on mechs

white karma
#

Yeah, that's another item that seems like a likely target for an adjustment

#

Also jets+ground speed enhancements

sudden vale
#

can pretty much guaruntee that's gonna get fixed somewhat when BV3.0 happens, it's been a big issue for all of 2.0's lifespan

#

no way CGL doesn't do something about it

white karma
#

Especially with a bunch of shiny new ilClan mechs that hit it really hard

ocean prairie
#

the Dominator is famously the poster child for "damn, the BV formula hates you, doesnt it"

idle wind
#

I kinda feel like giving it a Streak Heat treatment might work. (Count as half heat iirc)

Find the average of max and boost max and use that. Which would be the normal cost of just 1 full time if you had both which makes sense

finite sail
#

This is super napkin math because speed formula annoys me. But . . .
Going with the assumption that a mech takes a single point of internal damage from combat and gets an ammo explosion. I did a rough calculation on a few things of BV lost just to see how close it was.
What am I counting: I am assuming the arm is untouched, and any excess damage that transfers into the CT. Mind you this is obviously a very small sample size and again, Napkin math. But yeah. Its actually kinda nuts.

image.png
#

This also doesnt account for heat efficiency on the bigger meks which would shift the numbers around a little. Its purely just equipment lost x defensive factor.

white karma
white delta
#

Also radical sinks, blue shield, etc

sudden vale
#

Local group's first attempt at testing the ammo explosion rules: two LBX 20, lots of critseekers+holepunchers, 7 turns of brawling, somehow not one explosive component crit

idle wind
#

XD

white karma
#

as is tradition

white delta
#

Hah, thats BT for ya

#

C'mon, crit me!

idle wind
#

Next game someone eats a max range AC/2 for triple engine crit

sudden vale
#

There were crits, just every one of them was to a sink or weapon or engine, never to the big piles of ammo. Because BT does what it wants, when it wants

hazy drift
#

All Banes, all the time

#

Either the ammo will go up or everyone will run out.

#

Although I suppose you could get all your 2s on to hit rolls and jam everything.

sudden vale
#

and then it becomes kick club

finite sail
hybrid magnet
# finite sail Use mechs that have ammo by itself 😄

You say that but I've had a Marauder 3R that fired two PPC shots and hit the same spot detonating an untouched Warhammer's SRM ammo, followed by said Marauder getting the torso with the ammo exposed and down to 5 structure with the ammo never being crit

finite sail
#

I mean yeah. If crits dont happen, they just dont happen

hybrid magnet
#

BT can be a funny game at times

finite sail
#

But if there is only ammo, and they DO happen. Ammo goes up

hazy drift
#

Bring only Marauders, Dragons, Shadowhawks, and Crusaders in the classic 3025 standard configs. Can’t test case that way though.

white delta
#

Oops, all crusaders!

white karma
#

oops all Orions

idle wind
#

Oops warhammers?

prime prism
#

Marauder IIs, play Barbara's MAD IIs as they should be!

hazy drift
#

Are Mad IIs that explosive?

white karma
#

not really

hazy drift
#

Thought introtech Mad II is either all energy or a ton of SHS for padding like one AC.

white delta
#

Yeah it is

sudden vale
#

It's a tanky one, even without CASE

sudden vale
runic remnant
#

Ik I’m late to the convo but here is my big thing, this explosion damage cap does wonders to justify the lore of 300-year-old battlemechs. The prevalence of ammo explosions to not only destroy the unit but makes so many components completely unsalvageable, does not align with the lore. The new rule allows a unit that is destroyed by ammo explosion to still have parts that are worth salvage. Further, it allows units of the heavy variety that have ammo to be passed down to the following generation, even though a golden BB was able to force grandpa to eject when his marauders AC ammo exploded.

#

Sure it took the better part of a year for the mechanics to repair the IS and gyro that was hit, as well as another two years for grandpa’s force to core another marauder and steal a working side torso to finally let him reattach the arm but by golly he did it.

white karma
#

yeah, the current proposal still makes it a bit questionable for lighter mechs, but at least those get produced in greater quantities

#

while helping a lot with things like centuries-old Orions not having been converted into confetti much earlier

white delta
#

Especially mechs that are supposed to be really long lasting cause theyre just so goshdarn good

#

An atlas would be quite a bit more intimidating if you saw it suffer an explosion that would rip apart a mech half its tonnage, and still manage to shrug that off to keep coming at you.
Also, stalkers with happy trigger fingers and no respect for the heat scale

hard creek
#

Main question is how does this rule interact with the AOE ammo explosion rule in tacops. (TO:AR pg 76)

finite sail
hard creek
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Thats what I'd do with it. More complicated since in theory you're keeping track of capped and real damage at the same time.

idle wind
#

That would be simpler. Else you almost would need to do remaining ammo/10 as like an AoE or something.

But I'll wait till later to figure that out

slim rapids
#

Switching to the current aero ammo explosion rules for mechs would be fairly simple.

idle wind
#

I kinda like this one so far

white karma
#

downside of using the aero ammo explosion rules is that MG ammo winds up disproportionately deadly again

sudden vale
#

Could make it so MG ammo has an exception, which is honestly needed in general

#

"Ammunition for Weapons with the AI tag explodes for 1/xth it's normal amount" with some properly sized value of x

finite sail
#

An exception is fairly clunky, and prone to people forgetting

reef stirrup
#

Yeah. They are good for megamek but not so great for tabletop. Heck I know of people who forget they can flip thier arms around because they lack lower arm actuators.

finite sail
idle wind
#

Or for those used to running blimps, forgetting you cant lol

runic remnant
#

I’ve always like the idea of implementing the aero functionality (with the caveat like you said) how often in the lore do we read about the feed mechanism being struck and jammed?!

median osprey
#

2d6 shots would mean an exploding ammo bin is limited to 24 points of damage, averaging 14, whereas the bigger weapons (AC/20, LRM-15, LRM-20) can still see the entire bin go off.

finite sail
#

That sounds so convoluted xD

reef stirrup
#

Yeah...

empty rivet
#

why are people taking this as an invite to homebrew their own solutions

warped bluff
#

Because they don't like something about this solution, so they want to propose an alternative?

bleak lava
#

I mean this is an open source community. It's not the official CGL playtest channel. It's kind of in our nature. That being said, this channel is for discussion on the proposed rule change as written with respect to megamek.

warped bluff
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I don't see anything wrong with it

white karma
#

yeah I'm not sure CGL will actually take any suggestions at this point but I'm not hugely surprised people are theorycrafting

warped bluff
#

The playtest exists to get community feedback. This is the feedback.

bleak lava
white karma
#

true

empty rivet
#

exactly, there is not only a better place (not within this community but the CGL one), but a better one here

#

feedback on a change of X, to the effect of: "Y is better based on nothing" is not feedback either.

white delta
#

No need to be salty, talk about what you wanna talk about. There is a dedicated feedback form if you want to use that, and i'm sure some of these spaces are being casually viewed by at least some of the devs

white karma
#

in particular, the major feedback location remains the official playtest site, so any threads on this Discord are arguably more for local discussion

white delta
finite sail
#

That would make ammo crits for all but the largest rounds a joke

white karma
#

would certainly make MG ammo far less threatening, although it'd make AC20 or LRM20 ammo still very deadly

#

but yeah

#

right now things seem to be adjusted that you'll lose at least a location unless very sturdy

white delta
#

Also srm2 and ac2, other guns that have lots of ammo but little chance to use it all

finite sail
#

And?

white delta
#

Que?

finite sail
white delta
#

I was adding to mishra's statement

finite sail
#

How so?

white delta
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It would make srm2 and ac2 ammo less threatening, like mg ammo

finite sail
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Oh. Tbf those havent been mega threatening in the first place

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Beyond the fact that you cant easily use all the ammo

#

SRM2 is up there a little. Since its 200 at a full bin

white karma
#

anything more than like 60 damage is "delete entire mech" in any case (at least old rules)

white delta
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Its just as lethal, and harder to get rid of

#

Swapping to the proposed would punish based on the size/damage of the associated weapon rather than survival being largely based around tonnage

finite sail
#

But now you have a different disproportional problem

white delta
#

Light mechs tend to carry snaller weapons, and thus would take correspondingly less damage from a crit (urbie notwithstanding)

white karma
#

one slightly weird effect is that it would make 3x SRM2 and 1 ton of ammo do less damage than 1 SRM6 and 1 ton of ammo

white delta
#

Though funny enough a commando could take more from an SRM6 crit than the playtest rule

white karma
#

or similar effects with various sizes of LRMs

#

not sure that's ideal

white delta
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Like, theres mechs with multiple MGs per ton of ammo but its way more rare for other weapons

white karma
#

SRMs in particular show up that way in canon units, as do LRMs

white delta
#

Again, srm2s and ac2s

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Lrm5s

#

Which are set up like that because of the ammo you get per ton and how long it wiuld take one weapon to chew thru it all

finite sail
#

I do think reducing ammo explosions down to 2/1 shots [or 1 dmg? For CII] both sounds and feels really bad.

#

That makes the crit feel basically worthless in a lot of situations

white delta
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Its certainly very forgiving

finite sail
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And im pretty certain thats why they chose a cap value. As that means itll always feel impactful

white delta
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Which i think was the point of the idea

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Survivability is the name of the playtest after all

finite sail
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Yes. But they dont want something to just feel bad as a result

white delta
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Feel bad for who?

finite sail
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Players getting the crit

white delta
#

They still deal 2 pilot hits, and take out a weapon system, and its bonus internal damage which may chain

finite sail
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Except against units with larger guns, ammo crits basically turn into crit pads [except the pilot hit]

white delta
#

The effect isnt instant death

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Would you rather crit srm2 ammo for an 8 internal explosion, or a lower arm actuator?

finite sail
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8 internals is nothing if it doesnt actually do something, like blow off the limb or proc another crit.

#

Or unless you can capitalize on the reduced HP.

white delta
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Which it may well do, simply remove the secondary chance of negating further crits

finite sail
white karma
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even without CASE effects, it's only ~41% chance to roll further crits

finite sail
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Also arms is the location least concerned about

white delta
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And thats the case of an srm2 ammo crit, bigger mechs tend to have bigger guns that make bigger boom when you crit their ammo

finite sail
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You get an ammo crit on a mech's torso, youre expecting them to feel it. 8 dmg for the srm2 example is a joke for most sizes except the lightest of lights

reef stirrup
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Yeah..

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Feels like I wasite d acrit

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Woudl have rather have had a an engien or gryo crit at that point

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I honestly fine with it being stactic. 20/10/1

#

TIs honeslty a geniune imrpovment to case already

white delta
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Kk, was an interesting thought. Cheers to Sir Chaos

finite sail
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Ive played 3 more games since i last had this big discussion. Weve had 3 light mechs get blown up by ammo explosion and still no one complained. Its a light mech. No ones expecting it to survive an ammo bin going up.

#

[Also had a medium turn into a fireball due to a golden BB]

#

Random aside actually, we were more impressed they survived getting hit in the first place

reef stirrup
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Yeah.

#

I mean imagin hitting a Thor II or a Vulture Mk IV and you hit thier LRM 5 ammo pack and all you do is 5 damage.. when you coudl have hit any aother ammo bin in there. I'd rather do a flat damage of 10.

finite sail
#

I have had similar happen hitting a partial bin xD

reef stirrup
#

Or heck hitting a Turkina M's LBX 2 ammo bin all all you do is 2 damage..

white delta
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Funny how the difference is 5 damage

finite sail
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But thats an exception

finite sail
reef stirrup
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Espially since all Clan units that are clan tech base have cased built in.

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Clan tech is already #midgard ... I don't want it any worse.

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Plus a flat damage is easier to remember than forgetting "Oh I need to do a roll for this damage". Heck talf the time... when I get a ammo explosion in a tabletop game I just wort it off the unit espialyl if its MG ammo.

#

Flat damage? Is it the best thing to do? No... but its farier to all sides and eaiser to remember in espialyl a massive battle on paper.

white karma
#

yeah I was definitely not a fan of the suggested 1d6/2d6 shots

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if NOT going with a flat cap, other option is probably based on the structure of the location

#

either original structure, or like how HBStech does it, where basically everything has old-CASE (or maybe a little extra damage as a treat for stuff without CASE)

#

main downside there is that CT ammo becomes deadly again

finite sail
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The only reason i dont like that is cause variable damage in general pales to flat damage.
If your whole reason for doing this change is cause blow out panels exist for all ammo now [ala why your armor blows off], then a flat value makes the most sense. Is 20/10/1 the best value. Hard to say.

And yes I admit this is bringing in a modium of realism.

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But 20 dmg feels right, and still feels impactful [who doesnt love a free 20 dmg]

white karma
#

"once the location is dead, the armor blows out" also feels reasonable-ish (at least in terms of in-universe logic)

#

given that mechs already work in a sort of compartmentalized manner for armor

reef stirrup
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20 damage is an AC20.. you either A, shrug it off... or your in bad shape but... you're most likely alive.

finite sail
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But if the location is dead, the armor blowing out legit doesnt matter

#

That defeats the point of said 'tech'

reef stirrup
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Because sudnely. a Firestarter or a Phawk has a chance to stay in the fight..

white karma
#

well that's the no-CASE case

finite sail
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Well yeah

white karma
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CASE/II would probably keep lower caps

#

especially CASE II

finite sail
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But even no CASE has the blowout

white karma
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"dead location" would be gentler on the lighter mechs, however

finite sail
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Thats why it still destroying the location guaranteed makes no sense

reef stirrup
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With CASE suddenly light mechs have a higher chance of light mechs surviving a bad hit from an ammo bin going up... which means hey... that means that Commando you brought for scouting is suddenly not going to be seen for low altautde because it feel over and set off its ammo bin because a Trenchbucket kicked you in the face.

finite sail
reef stirrup
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I love the K2 and K3 Catapults... they are amazing direct fire suppor tunits.. I can't name the number I have lost due to me not be able to drain the ammo fo the MG quickly.

finite sail
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[Especially since it means if youve taken any internal combat damage, youre going to have rollover which is going to crit the next spot]

white delta
finite sail
reef stirrup
#

Yeah. It seems liek a godo alerative but suddendly you've gone too far in the wrong direction

finite sail
#

#1415096692159811624 message

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An ammo explosion in the example Atlas costs almost as much BV as your entire Atlas

white delta
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I have a hunch that you may feel that way because you are used to what ammo dets do from your experience of play, you expect them to be a certain level of catastrophic

finite sail
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Our ammo works an entirely different way

reef stirrup
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I use a mix of mechs and tanks.

#

CASE.. just says no on TANKS

finite sail
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I play with meks too. But tanks are my frontline

reef stirrup
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"You blow up my ammo? Okay.. I am still driving!"

finite sail
white delta
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I can see how a mech taking CT MG ammo crit for a whopping 4 damage may seem anticlimactic

finite sail
white delta
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but im also of the opinion that MG ammo shouldnt explode at all

reef stirrup
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I disagree but we will agree to disagree

white delta
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I do think the cascade effects are still noteworthy enough

finite sail
white delta
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But at this point, just an interesting thought experiment

empty rivet
#

Its also not unreasonable to say that the top is specifically the rules change proposed, should be the primary conversation topic, in a thread referencing said specific topic.

white karma
#

tbf I'm not sure any of these are serious suggestions (at least yet)

white delta
#

We are :P
Raoz and radar were kind enough to consider the suggestion
And it wasnt a significant improvement over the 20/10

empty rivet
#

this is the same energy as talking about designs/homebrew in #tabletop-battletech . just saying

sharp marten
hazy drift
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Actually I think that rule would be even more efficient at killing pilots than case II or AP gauss boats because it sounds like the rest of the bin is still sitting there waiting to be crit and still inflicts pilot hits.

median osprey
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I don´t think so. Part of the force of the ammo explosion would always be vented out of the mech, through whatever hole in the armor that allowed the shot to hit the ammo in the first place; the main contribution of CASE and CASE is to make it easier for the explosive force to vent rather than go deeper inside the mech. So the whole bin is gone either way.

#

Ammo cooking off from heat would be utterly devastating without CASE, though - there´s no hole in the armor to vent through.

agile hill
finite sail
agile hill
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Not sure if/where in published materials it’s ever mentioned though. Like there’s no “as an option players may…” blurbs in BMM / TW / AGoAC to the best of my knowledge.

finite sail
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CO mentions going to battle under repaired/rearmed/etc.

agile hill
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And would be curious about the Venn diagram of people who play it and people who even care about the caps, as the roughest units end up with a similar if not better patch. (Caps mitigate risk size but not risk duration while set counts put both under payer control.)

finite sail
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Its mainly only really ever done in campaign play [without manually starting with less ammo]

agile hill
finite sail
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I dont recall where. It might be in the repairs section

agile hill
finite sail
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Piloting based physicals?

agile hill
#

Kicks and punches used to have a static base to hit rather than being based on piloting; IIRC, basing the TN on piloting skill originally debuted in SVII dueling rules then migrated to an advanced book at some point before landing in TW.

finite sail
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So if they did that mustve been ANCIENT rules

agile hill
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At least as late as ‘94 in the BT compendium.

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I am getting more ancient every day tho 😕

finite sail
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XD ah. Yeah. Thats pretty far back

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And about a full decade before I started, so explains why i didnt know about it

agile hill
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It’s only (checks notes) 30 years?!

finite sail
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And i think the reason manual ammo adjustment [much like heat adjustment and other such things] arent in TW/BMM is because youre getting into very nuanced grounds. If youre coming to a casual game, doing all that extra manual adjustment is [albeit understandable] mildly tedioum.

agile hill
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Not sure what you mean by manual heat adjustment, but marking “12” next to a MG bin seems very little overhead next to, eg. Marking alt ammo types and halving bins for alt AC ammo etc.

finite sail
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Coming up to a table with a sheet covered in edited markings for bins that have been adjusted [which means BV on the sheet isnt accurate] is far more annoying than coming to a table with a clean sheet printed with all the appropriate bins. Especially alt ammos [though if you have accurate BV written somewhere that could be handwaved a little]

#

Also outside of campaign play, why would a mech go to a battlefield with a partially loaded bin

agile hill
agile hill
#

Re BV, there'll definitely be a descrp. if one or more bins is completely emptied, but otherwise BV calcs don't account for round count or explosion size to start with. This is part of why high round count bins are smelly — unlike w/ big guns w/ multiple bins, small gun ammo bins never convert to crit padding over the match.

#

Regardless, IIRC, BV adjustments in response to the proposed rule changes are on the table.

finite sail
hybrid magnet
#

Honestly if I could be bothered with the Mechs I bring, none would enter battle with more than 15 shots for each gun of explosive ammo for a one-off game. Normally though I just go with full bins as it is easier

agile hill
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(Poor mech-tech re-explains to bob that his WLV6K is not an omnimek for the 10th time.)

finite sail
agile hill
#

IME 15 also seems super reasonable but have found the AC/5 alt ammo's 10 rounds is a very interesting sweet spot — you can lean on triggerearly to mitigate explosion risk in end game, or race to 4-5 rounds and then be judicious etc.

agile hill
#

And the explosion mitigation proposal indicates a desire to tone down the confetti.

hybrid magnet
#

15 is enough that I will pretty much never fully run out of ammo with the exception of late game, even taking the more marginal shots, it’s part of why I like SRM6s, they come with the perfect amount of ammo

finite sail
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IIRC its upwards of 30 BV per ton of ammo, which is in some cases more than the cost of said ammo.
Like dont get me wrong I see the point. Its just very gamey to do it outside of a campaign setting [where your mek may not have had a chance to reload]

#

Hmm. Maybe its not in CO. But i know ive seen it. I could be wrong though.

agile hill
#

Indeed a bin can give discount larger than the BV gain, but still a question I think if that discount is sufficient.
It's also the case that crit padding isn't accounted for, so I'd bet many would agree something like a MAD3R is not sufficently discounted.

finite sail
#

I mean yeah. Some mech designs have flaws. Its half the beauty of playing them.

agile hill
#

But to pivot back to the actual proposal — Seems an explicit desire to preserve some confettification because a chunk of people enjoy that, and setting rounds can erase that (even if leaving some explosion risk), so only a little surprised it hasn't come up.

prime prism
finite sail
molten wigeon
#

I wish they'd capped machine gun ammo explosions to 2 or so

finite sail
idle wind
#

Other than it would be crit heaven....

#

And pilot blender

#

Umm.... am i reading this right?
#1415093446149931129 message

If you reach max damage for the location it pops off the armor.

Would that then imply that if you didnt hit the damage cap that you would just do internal damage?

So like 1 AC/10 round left cooks off (no CASE) you only take 10 internal and thats it?

finite sail
#

Cause blowout panels

idle wind
#

Else internal "pop" and that it..... Interesting

finite sail
#

Ye

idle wind
#

Also ironically means you hit blowout faster with straight CASE and only CASEII has the improved "partial blowout"

finite sail
#

Ye

finite sail
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Ah. They clarified that composite is still gonna get vaporized from an ammo explosion [doubles AFTER the cap]

idle wind
#

Oh yeah that stuff goes pweufff

white karma
#

seems reasonable tbh

hazy drift
idle wind
#

Yeah but if you survive anything less than the 20 point max you keep the armor. That's what was throwing me off

white karma
#

yeah, there are a VERY few situations where CASE can re-cap damage and pop armor off a location that wouldn't have lost it without CASE, but in most situations it's an advantage

idle wind
#

Agreed.

Just the edge cases were odd enough to toss me one lol

white karma
#

mostly stuff exploding in IS arms and transferring 10 < x < 20 damage into a CASE'd torso

#

or a leg I suppose

hazy drift
#

So on the hit that knocks an arm off you crit the ammo in an IS design that has torso CASE but still uses arm ammo.

white karma
#

yeah, that would do it

#

or if the limb had less than 10 structure left when the ammo was crit

hazy drift
#

ARE there IS designs with CASE and arm ammo?

white karma
#

first one I can think of offhand is my favorite Longbow-8V, which has leg ammo and torso CASE

hazy drift
#

I guess an arm gauss would do it too, there are more of those.

white karma
#

there's probably a few others

#

but it's not super common, no

median osprey
#

Pretty sure the -7D Dervish has its Streak ammo in the arms, and has torso case. It had the SRM ammo in arms in the original -6M version, so that tracks.

agile hill
#

Occurs to me that the raw explosion cap gives me a little dissonance over the intro-tech units with side torso ammo for arm mounted guns (e.g. ENF-4R) -- like, presuming the explosion characteristics are roughly fluffy, then there'd be an strong impetus for engineers/designers to marry arm weapon ammo with the gun, or even just put more ammo weapons in the arms.

Relatedly, also a buff for those that do that, which is kind of nice given the arm arc perk has always felt a little underwhelming of an upswing for that extra vulnerability.

prime prism
#

I think CASE II should protect each crit slot in it's own CASE, while CASE itself protects the Location only.

And Blowout Panels should be standard intro-tech. Thet allow the Capped Explosion to be blown out after dealing the extreme ammo explosion itself.

Might save a few points of torso armor, also allows each critical slot to behave as a potential ammo bomb themselves. Case protects full torso and II each slot.

But that's an idea opinion.