HL5 EM4 FO2 is excessive
#h1-high-heat-strategies
thorny veldt
i do it cuz i enjoy the fight
knotty sphinx
Em 4 is so hard but so fun
thorny veldt
^^^^^^
knotty sphinx
i do it cuz i enjoy the fight
Me too
shy plinth
It is fun
thorny veldt
plus
shy plinth
But HL5 EM4 FO2 is... a lot
thorny veldt
ill have to learn em4 for 50 heeat at some point, plus i find it fun so better now then later
knotty sphinx
Em4 hades with all those summons in his first phase can get really crazy
shy plinth
Well, if you're looking for a slightly more sane heat progression, this is what I recommend https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/668865849079103539/884878890739335178/unknown.png
But have fun with superdad 🙂
thorny veldt
But HL5 EM4 FO2 is... a lot
it is, its arguably harder than the 32 heat im doing now but i wanna die for a week and learn the patterns at fo2
knotty sphinx
I did em4 for all 6 weapons at 32 heat
Planning your entire run for em hades is the best
shy plinth
Ugh it's so stressful tho
thorny veldt
Ugh it's so stressful tho
THATS WHY ITS FUN
knotty sphinx
It is. When it's successful it feels rewarding
shy plinth
As long as y'all enjoy it
thorny veldt
HL5 EM4 FO2 may be more than a week lol
ive already done HL5 EM4, so i just have to adjust to FO2
knotty sphinx
I tend to want the punishment in games which is why I'm open to fo2.
shy plinth
There's some serious punishment down the RI and AP rabbit holes too
But FO2 is way less frustrating lol
left prism
and HS 
shy plinth
Oh yes
undone tartan
You can definitely do EM4 at 40 heat if you want, but it’s really hard so don’t be saying you’re having trouble with it because everyone’s advice is just gonna be to remove it 
knotty sphinx
You can definitely do EM4 at 40 heat if you want, but it’s really hard so don’t ...
i was having trouble at 32 heat anyway lol
undone tartan
With EM4?
knotty sphinx
Yeah. I would almost always get to hades but lose in his last phase
not complaining. i loved the challenge
flat flicker
My first 32 was with em4
undone tartan
I hope you don’t also have FO2 or HL5
thorny veldt
I hope you don’t also have FO2 or HL5
undone tartan
For 32 heat?
Ok I hope you don’t expect to win without playing as well (or getting as good luck) as I do on my 40 heat runs
Because FO2 HL5 EM4 at 32 heat is like… harder than a lot of 40 heat pacts
thorny veldt
i say bring the pain
hardy garden
have fun dying
flat flicker
I’m rooting for you! Off meta is super based
thorny veldt
have fun dying <:dusa:522248771409543188>
if i didnt have fun dying id have stopped playing a Loooooooong time ago
glacial gorge
if i didnt have fun dying id have stopped playing a Loooooooong time ago
Yeah my success rate after finishing the base game achievements has only gone down lol
On a side note, are there any significant difference in m+k and controller?
solar maple
controller has more precise movement and stronger auto aim
kbm can disassociate attack/movement directions, and is less at the mercy of auto aim (unless you have aim at cursor off)
both are viable
most people use controller
hardy garden
note to self: dont pick ice wine beo
quartz mantle
What you mean you don't want your cast explosion to get delayed?
hardy garden
also not using acorn in elysium was a bad idea
i forgot that beo plus hl5 = 105 damage from asterius
solar maple
yeah that extra 5 damage really gets you 
flat flicker
not 110?
worn iron
Btw, i got hit by something in Theseus fight for 200 damage the other day with HL5
What was that? Or rather, whats that could've been?
mossy zinc
2 bombs, I guess?
undone tartan
Yeah probably 2 or more bombs
spice lava
honest kernel
losing 3 of them at the miniboss phase
flat flicker
em4 no joke
undone tartan
What’s the best build for 40 heat Zag sword
jaunty falcon
Probably ME or heartbreak strike smoldering
Could also do some divine strike DR shenanigans
solemn pulsar
divine flourish start is decent for safety, damage, and lets you spec into DR/HR or ME
undone tartan
I did ME for 32
I’m just worried it will be super weak in Tartarus
I guess I could just keep trying until I get super early ME
Since I’m not very good with sword
quartz mantle
Be really cool and use drunken strike
undone tartan
Maybe start divine dash
But then I might time out
wintry berry
not with td2
undone tartan
Also, I’m not sure how I’m gonna do Hades spear. I’m not worried about Zag spear because I can use flurry jab, but Hades spear? Do I just do a really slow and unsafe ME build?
jaunty falcon
Exploding launcher probs
quartz mantle
^
undone tartan
not with td2
On 40 heat? But then I’d need AP which is incompatible with ME
jaunty falcon
Hammer resets are sad, but ME resets are sadder
wintry berry
On 40 heat? But then I’d need AP which is incompatible with ME
I don't think so
undone tartan
Hammer resets are sad, but ME resets are sadder
Especially because the celing for spear ME is so low
quartz mantle
On 40 heat? But then I’d need AP which is incompatible with ME
You could run hell mode
It would be wack but like you could do it
Also you can run dc on zag sword with TD2
But yea hades spear is just hope you get exploding in tart otherwise cry try to survive until Elysium
undone tartan
I don’t want to run hell mode
I don’t even have a file
Hades spear is the worst aspect in the game tbh
quartz mantle
You can grab one from speedrun.com
Also this is what I did for hades 40 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/771815559410876446/880551748094279710/unknown.png
No charged but I’m like 80% sure this was charged start which helps a lot
Deadly flourish is probably more optimal but I like tempest flourish personally
Haven’t done zag sword 40 but it hasn’t been aotw yet and that’s kind of the cycle I’m going for
jaunty falcon
That looks like a pretty pog build ngl
undone tartan
What aspect has the lowest heat record?
jaunty falcon
Arthur past 49 sounds rough
undone tartan
zag rail
Really? Do spread fire builds fall off super hard at high heat? It’s not like they need very much to get going
jaunty falcon
Hazard bomb OP
undone tartan
Is it?
wintry berry
it is
jaunty falcon
Big damage
undone tartan
Ohhh
undone tartan
Oh that’s insane then. I didn’t realize it hit base damage
undone tartan
On all aspects <:dusa:522248771409543188>
No way it’s better than rocket for Eris. Or cluster. Or most things actually
wintry berry
zag rail isn't grinded yet
undone tartan
Yeah but there’s no way it’s worth it
quartz mantle
Still waiting for a mod that lets you stack hazard with cluster or triple
undone tartan
The extra work required to dodge the damage every time is so stupid
jaunty falcon
It's a meme on Eris
quartz mantle
Devs are too much cowards for it
undone tartan
Still waiting for a mod that lets you stack hazard with cluster or triple
Or rocket
jaunty falcon
But it's great on the others
eternal hare
I like hazard over rocket on hestia
jaunty falcon
Just means you cant get clockets
eternal hare
majorly solves the aoe problem that high-heat hestia has and it's a single hammer with almost-clockets power
eternal hare
ye
undone tartan
Is ricochet the definitive best hammer for Hestia?
jaunty falcon
It's debatable
Hestia needs boss damage more than anything, and ricochet doesn't help with that
eternal hare
there are a lot of good hammers for hestia
eternal hare
I'd put hazard as the top standalone high-heat hammer tho
ricochet and piercing just a little under it
they all address the aoe problem but hazard majorly solves the aoe problem
undone tartan
Yeah that makes sense
jaunty falcon
And helps with bosses a ton
undone tartan
I don’t really feel like bosses were a problem though
I just kept a big distance and easily sniped them
undone tartan
Maybe I was just doing really good damage
eternal hare
yeah hestia is p good at laying on the safe and steady damage
throwing a hazard bomb in there speeds things up though
quartz mantle
Bosses with Hestia are methodical and steady, but don’t have the potential burst that weapons like Beo or Eris can have
undone tartan
Normal elysium rooms and Tartarus rooms could be pretty rough though, even with C1 Ricochet fire
eternal hare
give hazard a shot
undone tartan
I will, if I ever try to go past 40 with Hestia
Which I probably won’t do for a while
solar maple
I had hazard bomb on every rail 50 where it was eligible haha
though my eris 50 was a bit of a meme
undone tartan
I’m sure
eternal hare
honestly don't even need good hammers for hestia 50
solar maple
eternal hare
I think I did my first 50 with explosive delta hestia
undone tartan
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/771815559410876446/841114942425661450/Scr...
Spread Fire Drunken Strike Eris 
flat flicker
ok im doing achilles spear zeus cast at 32, i just got chaos - extra bloodstone or 60p cast damage (running infernal)
undone tartan
That’s like “anti-synergy, the build”
eternal hare
i'd personally go for 60% cast damage in this case just so that you're more likely to one-shot stuff with it
undone tartan
ok im doing achilles spear zeus cast at 32, i just got chaos - extra bloodstone ...
Zeus cast Achilles? Mmm idk. Probably cast damage for bosses? Since I’d imagine that would really struggle with bosses
solar maple
I really like a 4th cast stone for achilles
undone tartan
Plus, since they bounce, extra damage probably does more than bloodstones
eternal hare
can argue for extra stone for more flexibility in using it too
solar maple
makes the rotation smoother with the achilles buff
undone tartan
makes the rotation smoother with the achilles buff
That is very true
eternal hare
actually yeah with achilles being +150% already the extra stone makes more sense here
undone tartan
But if you throw in a single dash strike, then it works out nice
undone tartan
Why you want sea storm? Tempest Strike?
undone tartan
Do you have tempest strike or flourish?
flat flicker
no just dash
undone tartan
Then you can’t get sea storm
flat flicker
oh good to know
undone tartan
I’m pretty sure
flat flicker
aight poseidon's aid it is
undone tartan
Actually yeah you could get the call I think
undone tartan
Check the codex if you want to be sure
undone tartan
Ok
flat flicker
now arty for mirage or aphro for smoldering
undone tartan
Wait what’s the Guan Yu heat record?
I would have assumed it was either that or Hades spear that’s the worst at high heat
eternal hare
55-heat GY
there is also 55-heat hades spear
achilles is actually the stinkiest spear
undone tartan
How so
gaunt fiber
I wonder if flurry is enough on its own
Well you can't zoom like in any heat
Things kill you
undone tartan
Is the Zag spear record better than Hades and Guan Yu because FJ?
eternal hare
no
flurry jab and the lack of special hammers is what makes achilles worse than the others
it's just not good and not safe
having a very safe very fast ranged nuke is significantly more value
undone tartan
flurry jab and the lack of special hammers is what makes achilles worse than the...
How does flurry jab make it worse
eternal hare
it's unsafe and needs a lot of stuff to make it work
eternal hare
so if you don't use it how are you gonna play achilles
eternal hare
it doesn't
I'm just saying that it doesn't have the tools that can allow it to perform at high-heat compared to the other spears
undone tartan
That’s very surprising
eternal hare
sorry, my original message was confusing
undone tartan
What’s the Achilles heat wr?
eternal hare
53
undone tartan
Wow! That’s really low
eternal hare
basically at high-heat the damage output from good special hammers >>>>> anything flurry jab can do
and the safety from good special hammers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flurry jab
solar maple
the real reason is all the controller players specialing directly into traps and dad pots
north dove
^
solar maple
achilles def has the damage with flurry for 55 to be possible
it's just hard to do so safely
north dove
yeah, if hades spear can clear 55 with spin hammers, achilles can definitely do it easier
solar maple
also the hades spear record is inflated from being tailesque's favorite aspect
solar maple
though retrash did 55 too
eternal hare
just took one madman's dedication to grinding it out
undone tartan
it's just hard to do so safely
What makes safety astronomically more important? All you’d be adding is CP, AP, RI, and EM4. The damage felt fine at 40, so why should it be so different at 55 to make the aspect incredibly unsafe
eternal hare
because good luck finding anything to make flurry jab scale properly on RI2 AP2
or even just AP2, but even so flurry jab is inherently an unsafe melee-ranged playstyle
solar maple
I'm biased because I like playing sword but sword feels safer to me
other than the fact that special is good mobility for me
I don't really disagree with you, I think achilles is fine for high heat
it is very sad without flurry though
also "what makes safety astronomically more important?" followed by you answering your own question with those last 2 in the list
undone tartan
Yeah EM4 makes sense, but why does RI2 hurt safety so much? It more hurts your ability to assemble good builds I thought
Other than taking 50 health from you
solar maple
you have half as much health with RI2
eternal hare
it takes more than 50 health from you
solar maple
between thick skin and dark foresight
undone tartan
Yeah but you can make that up by the time things should get really hard
Or at least some of it
undone tartan
Yeah that’s true
eternal hare
it's compounded by the fact that you may have to sacrifice the actual heart rooms you do get to try to scale your damage in some meaningful way
solar maple
RI naturally lowers the amount of boons you get too, so you are forced to buy bad boons over health as well too
in order to sell
solar maple
my strategy for unsafe weapons is to run RI0 and get like 3-400 health
that's half of my 50 heat clears
undone tartan
I’m not familiar with RI2 so it’s hard to foresee quite how hard it affects seemingly unaffected things
bright ibex
I liked it better when you had a set pool of darkness to spend :(
solar maple
yeah they changed that a while ago
solar maple
it was a bit weird, but a neat concept
eternal hare
RI2 is a pretty big reason for why one-boon/minimal pom aspects are so dominant
solar maple
people really underrate family favorites as well
undone tartan
FF does a lot, yeah
solar maple
achilles likes to build flat damage, and you realistically don't get much global damage on high heat
so you just lose like a fifth of your damage just from FF
eternal hare
it's not so bad
maining an aspect that deals with it well helps a lot
if we pretend Ri3/4 don't exist, at least
undone tartan
maining an aspect that deals with it well helps a lot
Like what? A shield?
eternal hare
lol yeah shields/hestia/rama
gaunt fiber
it's not so bad
solar maple
RI is less brutal on safe aspects that need few boons to scale, and don't rely too much on flat damage
rama/hestia are the best examples
then RI3 is zeus shield zone lol
and zag shield ig but who plays that
undone tartan
Was the 64 heat routed run done with Beowulf? Or Zeus?
eternal hare
pseudo is trying to figure out a 64 beo route though 👀
sand temple
RI4 on beo sounds like hell
solar maple
it's a lot of work though
undone tartan
and zag shield ig but who plays that
Seems so much worse than Zeus I’m almost every way
jaunty falcon
Beowulf with 1 cast is not good
solar maple
you get chaos casts and maybe fully loaded
solar maple
also for em4 I would be able to manip ~2 extra cast stones from a well
which makes it much more manageable
if you haven't seen the sort of shenanigans routed can get up to I recommend watching the seeded any heat wr
I hear some very cute and smart people helped design the route 👀
undone tartan
It’s sub 3 minute right?
solar maple
yeah it's sub 3
undone tartan
I saw it. It’s really absurd
solar maple
I routed the elysium of that run
solar maple
we have mods that make routing easier
undone tartan
Or do you mean you decided what the best route was
solar maple
then we uninstall the mods and run the route on vanilla
undone tartan
Ah ok
eternal hare
learnable in a day 👀
solar maple
the other thing I'm tossing ideas around for is a dio hera route lol
undone tartan
Dio Hera? I’ve never heard of such a thing in my life
undone tartan
Done
waxen relic
good aspect amirite
undone tartan
Mmm idk about that
waxen relic
shh
undone tartan
I kept rolling Hermes and selling bad Hermes boons digging for Swift flourish and found something arguably stronger
Actually I shouldn’t say arguably. There’s no world where Swift flourish is better than 5x divine dashes
That was an almost excessive level of safety
Also 20% dodge chance
Also, I recorded a room where I was trying to lose my SD. I got hit 9 times, and dodged 6 of them. With just my 20% greater evasion
Tf?
The only issue is I forgot to show my boons in the video so I can’t prove that’s all I had
Although, what else could I have had? Couldn’t be second wind because I didn’t call, couldn’t be flume because that’s visible, couldn’t be zag fists because I spear throw
I guess it could have been heroic
I’m having a lot of trouble with crush shot Hera at 40 heat. Is it possible I’d be better off doing an attack build and not a cast build, and looking for twin shot?
waxen relic
Where's the trouble? You want to learn Hera, or do you want to do ZagBow twice?
undone tartan
I did Zag bow already with- wait nvm I just looked back at that run and I was literally carried by Rip Current Smoldering Air
I’ve played a good amount of Hera
32 was super easy
But 40 feels really bad for some reason
I’ve done like 15 attempts at least
flat flicker
you got spoiled by beo lol
waxen relic
If you don't have a clue what's wrong, noone can help.
Well as long as you haven't done stuff like DC2 for it.
undone tartan
No ofc not
undone tartan
you got spoiled by beo lol
It’s not that
undone tartan
Is Rush Kick broken (as in, not working properly) on Demeter?
mossy zinc
good aspect amirite
It's good if you buff the Attack combo to 60>80>200, Dash-Attacks to 50, and Specials to 60.
waxen relic
Would that actually make you use the Attack Combo?
mossy zinc
It didn't in the one run where I had Serrated Point lol.
But the combo did a ton of damage when I used it.
Might be overbuffed, but then again, Beowulf exists.
waxen relic
Just fix Beowulf.
undone tartan
It's good if you buff the Attack combo to 60>80>200, Dash-Attacks to 50, and Spe...
Ooh that sounds interesting
waxen relic
Btw to people lurking, you could submit these runs with Pony QoL (or other mods) to the Spreadsheet pinned in the high-heat section of the speedrunnning discord.
honest kernel
its a lot of dmg but getting used to it can be hard
also hermes helps a lot ye
if ur a real gilga gamer this will be no issue
shy plinth
jaunty falcon
Rama handles Lernie shockingly well
"aspect that is well known to be good at high heat, performs well at high heat, huh"
undone tartan
Yeah Rama kicks Lernie’s ass
flat flicker
Two specials, chain shot, all heads die in one attack. Super based.
flat flicker
One shorting all of lernie heads in one attack mostly
elfin rock
chain shot is just sad on rama imo
undone tartan
You can kinda already do that
elfin rock
on zag it's pretty nice
undone tartan
Just use shared suffering
flat flicker
It also effectively can x4 your damage if there’s four bad guys in range without needing to aim
elfin rock
true
but in general i prefer to save chain shot for other aspects
that like it more
flat flicker
100 damage attack becomes 280 with shared suffering on all bad guys
clever otter
just as a reminder, having a different playstyle is okay, even in this channel where everything focuses on optimization
undone tartan
100 damage attack becomes 280 with shared suffering on all bad guys
Or you could have point blank or perfect shot
honest kernel
I think chain shot is kinda nice on groups but its obv no as good as the top tier hammers
it just makes shared suffering do more!
eternal hare
it's okay in regular encounters when there's still a bunch of stuff but it definitely falls off hard when you're stuck with a single target
shy plinth
It's weird with Rama right
eternal hare
and in general not being able to one-shot stuff with it on its own just isn't good
shy plinth
Makes the projectile narrower effectively?
daring hedge
chain triple is awful
makes it so all three projectiles really do not want to hit the same enemy while it's not a problem without chain
flat flicker
I beat my first 32 Rama with it (partially because i am a dumbass and took js3)
so I have a soft spot for it
Was it optimal? Of course not
But man it was fun
hardy garden
attacking during dash = iframes lost
ripe ermine
Yes.
hardy garden
unless like uh delta chamber and athena dash has more i frames or something
worn iron
Does this applies to Excalibur if you dash between starting third attack and releasing it?
ripe ermine
That’s a good question. It’s not exactly a dash-strike but it’s not a naked dash either.
worn iron
Someone mentioned that athena dash protects during recovery animation which is technically an extension of i-frames
but dunno if thats accurate
what about delta chamber tho?
mossy zinc
Divine Dash doesn't give any i-frames at all.
Dash-Attacks have no i-frames at all.
Delta Chamber maintains i-frames during Dash-Attacks.
worn iron
What about Lucifer?
mossy zinc
You don't have i-frames if you hold Attack during the dash.
worn iron
No wonder i absolutely naher suck at this game
daring hedge
the divine dash i-frames misconception can sometimes come from how it deflects attacks and prevents the rest of the animation from doing anything to you
mossy zinc
lol
Yeah, deflected attacks just can't harm you. But that's different from having invulnerability.
worn iron
And also no wonder why Chiron feels like safest option - i rarely dashstrike with it, if ever, when im tryharding
mossy zinc
You also just kinda shoot from so far that you don't need to i-frame any attacks anyway.
worn iron
That helps, but Hades for example closes the gap pretty quick
Hmm
But does that means sniper rail is also super-safe because reload doesnt cancel iframes?
mossy zinc
I don't know if I'd say that specifically is why Hestia is very safe, but it's very safe.
worn iron
Because, well
next acorn
Delta Chamber maintains i-frames during Dash-Attacks.
wait what
mossy zinc
I mean reload removing i-frames would just generally suck.
It's just a weird question idk.
worn iron
Swords rely on dash attacks very much, so does fists and bow.
Feels like a weapon that does not relies on dash attacks to maximize its damage output is therefore safest.
thats my backwards logic at least
mossy zinc
Hestia relies on Dash-Strikes to optimize DPS, though.
mossy zinc
Lunge. You'd actually want Tidal Dash for optimal DPS, but Hunter Dash is really good, yeah.
mossy zinc
WHY DOES IT NOT SAY THIS IN THE DESCRIPTION
I don't think it was intended tbh.
next acorn
I will never understand some of the bugs in this game lol
mossy zinc
There are just way too many possible interactions in the game.
Bugs slipped by even with so many players during Early Access reporting bugs and the devs staying on top of everything.
I imagine the i-frames on Delta Chamber are the remains of something else they tested and that somehow slipped by.
That's just a guess anyway.
They changed Delta Chamber quite a few times if I remember correctly.
next acorn
Yeah that makes sense ig
But like how does Trippy flare on Beo, not trippy shot and not trippy flare on Hera only trippy flare on Beo have poms do double
code is weird
worn iron
what
shy gulch
undone tartan
THATS HUGE
Yeah it’s a big deal. It actually makes Delta Chamber legitimately really good for high heat Eris runs, at least imo. Everything felt so easy with Delta Chamber, it was crazy
next acorn
Yeah it felt way better but I never knew why
Like yeah amo is cozy but out felt so much better
undone tartan
The DPS drop was hard for me to get used to but the safety was so insane for my 40 heat run
I think I’d now take Delta Chamber over almost anything on 40+ heat Eris. Maybe not Rocket or Cluster, that probably wouldn’t be correct
honest kernel
chill heaters
undone tartan
Otherwise chill heaters would avoid it
What is a chill heater
undone tartan
Is it actually not a dps loss?
jaunty falcon
Not really
Once you get jolted it's going to be pretty much the same lightning damage
undone tartan
Why is jolted relevant?
jaunty falcon
And you'll be able to dash more often and therefore get more tidal dash damage
jaunty falcon
Why is jolted relevant?
Because, unless you get splitting bolt, most of your lightning damage in a Zeus attack rail run will be coming from jolted
jaunty falcon
The tankier ones, yeah
gaunt fiber
chill heaters <:thanthink:669246004142538753>
It has been decided by forces greater than mine because low heater was considered a discrimination
undone tartan
I’m sticking with low heater
honest kernel
lmao
honest kernel
?
undone tartan
I almost just lose a 40 heat run to tiny vermin
He took me Athena DD and left me at 27
Why in the world does he do 50+ damage per attack and have so much health
That’s actually tilting
Oh I’m gonna time out
Because I didn’t get a 2-sack and got a 3 minute tiny vermin
Because I was at almost no health for the whole fight
Vermin is such bs
Yup I timed out in Hades fight
If that Vermin had been the sack, I would have easily won
That’s my only attempt thats ever made it that far with this weapon out of like 30 attempts
undone tartan
Slugger Dracons are literally one of the scariest enemies in the game
Add bruiser or speeder and it’s over
Literally
I just lost a promising run to them
waxen relic
They kinda start with BP2 already, so yeah
honest kernel
they will rip you apart
ripe ermine
Yesterday I got slugger lava dracons in that one room with the tiny islands. Very upsetting
undone tartan
I don’t quite understand what that means
mossy zinc
They kinda start with BP2 already, so yeah
undone tartan
Right but how
mossy zinc
They basically already have Seeker and Shifter.
ripe ermine
Can confirm that delta chamber Eris is comfy. EM4 is easy turns out if you have delta chamber, 5 dashes, and are more or less permanently invulnerable while attacking
undone tartan
Yeah that’s how I did my 40 heat Eris run. Didn’t have EM4 though
undone tartan
I take everything back. Seeker is the worst benefit
I genuinely feel like seeker isn’t even fair
There are some rooms that feel like they are literally impossible
mossy zinc
Toffel bows to no one. 
undone tartan
Nyaa entertains herself by intentionally misunderstanding what people are saying
vital grove
Goddess of Love and Trolling
flat flicker
What’s your cast and what weapon
jaunty falcon
Rip
sand temple
beo I assume
jaunty falcon
Bottom
undone tartan
What’s your cast and what weapon
You can see it in on the left
jaunty falcon
No top
flat flicker
big oof lol
jaunty falcon
Middle will kill you
undone tartan
Chamber 35 which means I’m about or enter champions
jaunty falcon
And you have Athena DD and patty
undone tartan
Middle will kill you
From time?
jaunty falcon
Yeah EM4 takes ages
sand temple
even with the extra DD, the extra cast likely makes the hades fight easier
undone tartan
But yeah I have to take the top one?
undone tartan
even with the extra DD, the extra cast likely makes the hades fight easier
Tbh that might be true
mossy zinc
Definitely Grasp. You're playing Beowulf.
mossy zinc
What about it? It's just trap damage.
sand temple
33% extra damage over 3 or 4 extra hits seems like a relatively easy choice
undone tartan
What about it? It's just trap damage.
No, I mean passing the legendary in a 46 heat run
sand temple
especially when the extra hits also eat up a massive amount of time
flat flicker
No, I mean passing the legendary in a 46 heat run
the legendary also means you get 3 casts per 12 seconds
which
is really bad lol
undone tartan
It’s such a promising run so far
undone tartan
the legendary also means you get 3 casts per 12 seconds
I know
mossy zinc
Eh, you don't need it like 95% of the time they offer it, probably.
undone tartan
Nyaa I’m awful at EM4
flat flicker
go top i think
undone tartan
I took top
jaunty falcon
Beowulf is good at EM4
flat flicker
the curse would expire before em4
undone tartan
But like I’m super bad at EM4
jaunty falcon
Just block lmao
flat flicker
whats the problem
mossy zinc
Nyaa I’m awful at EM4
All the more reason to take Grasp.
undone tartan
Maybe true
flat flicker
itll be one sweaty tunnel, then youre gucci
undone tartan
whats the problem
The problem is that I’m gonna need all the health and DDs I can get so it’s painful to pass one
flat flicker
i mean if you die to the champions on TD, then you wont need to fight em4
mossy zinc
No, you need all the burst damage you can get to just skip the fights.
flat flicker
undone tartan
I do have 5x Divine Dashes though
flat flicker
and also a shield
undone tartan
Yeah
flat flicker
and possible another athena boon in a tunnel
sand temple
even with the curse, I think you might be fine with the champions but it puts massive pressure on you in styx
undone tartan
5x divine dashes are seriously so insane
flat flicker
33% buff from the cast is basically removing a defiance from dad
mossy zinc
Divine Dash doesn't protect you from spins.
flat flicker
blocking does
mossy zinc
It does.
flat flicker
man my neck is killin me holding up this big brain
flat flicker
wheres my replacement controller power a i wanna do beo 40 😦
mossy zinc
Why do 40 when you can one-up @undone tartan and do 47?
jaunty falcon
I'll do 48
undone tartan
Do it
jaunty falcon
And then back to 52 attempts
flat flicker
need my back buttons, too weird lol
i learned beo on that controller
playing it with left button as cast means like
i will waste three megs
jaunty falcon
Beowulf cast volley is basically a meg
undone tartan
Ok wish me 2-sack luck because without one I’m dead
mossy zinc
Fidi best summon.
undone tartan
Also, I assume no modifiers affect Skelly DD right?
mossy zinc
Ok wish me 2-sack luck because without one I’m dead
I hope you get a 3-sack so you get to have more fun with the minibosses.
jaunty falcon
Nope
mossy zinc
Tiny Vermin is a lot of fun. I like that miniboss.
undone tartan
honest kernel
can some1 decipher phoenix
undone tartan
You saw me ranting about Tiny Vermin earlier today 
mossy zinc
Phoenix also has | 🏹 in their name.
jaunty falcon
| 🛡️
undone tartan
I should definitely take tooth over acorn for EM4 right? Especially if I’m unfamiliar with EM4
mossy zinc
Acorn is good if you have high burst damage.
honest kernel
I'll become a modder and never go back
mossy zinc
Lucky Tooth is fine, too.
vital grove
I did the bow thing ages ago, it's nice to see someone else with the bow in their name
undone tartan
If I get Tiny Vermin this run I’m blocking Nyaa
vital grove
Iirc Leger also had it
flat flicker
If I get Tiny Vermin this run I’m blocking Nyaa
all that'll do is leave you mad confused next time you have high heat questions and we're all replying to one another
undone tartan
It’s true
mossy zinc
Or next time you ask a question and nobody's answering. 
vital grove
How do you know you're not blocked
mossy zinc
There.
jaunty falcon
What does blocking do, I've never blocked someone
And I don't think I've been blocked
mossy zinc
You can't take damage.
flat flicker
And I don't *think* I've been blocked
cant DM the person or react/reply to their stuff, i dont think see their messages either
jaunty falcon
So it's like they don't exist
But you'll see other people having a conversation with them
That's confusing
flat flicker
i got blocked by a dude for calling him out for outright racist memes once, because "i was toxic"
mossy zinc
They can't react to your messages or DM you, and you see "x blocked messages" when they post messages, and you can click on that to see the messages.
flat flicker
he will often make the same point i did ten min later and look dumb lol
undone tartan
I’m at less than a minute as I’m beating phase 1 
mossy zinc
Not the server to call people dumb, though.. although, posting racist memes certainly qualifies as dumb.
flat flicker
Not the server to call people dumb, though.. although, posting racist memes cert...
Different server
undone tartan
I’m gonna time out for sure
flat flicker
I’m gonna time out for sure
breathe
mossy zinc
Whether they're in the server or not isn't relevant.
mossy zinc
Just focus on a clean fight. Nothing else to do but that.
flat flicker
also should i be using meg in phase 1 or 2 of fight
or maybe even thanatos
on lasers
i see most people use it right at the start
mossy zinc
Whatever works best for you tbh.
flat flicker
on em4 i save it for the third one
mossy zinc
Right at the start is for speedruns.
sand temple
I wouldn't use thanatos in phase 1 at all though just because it is quite hard to hit
jaunty falcon
Meg the summons
mossy zinc
Mainly just to guarantee the hit and cut the opportunity to go invisible short.
Did you know that Fidi can block enemy projectiles for you?
undone tartan
Phase 3 and I have 30 seconds to kill him assuming I don’t get hit once 
It’s over
mossy zinc
Fidi during EM4 phase 1 part 2 or 3 is great.
undone tartan
I need a sec to breath just in case it’s possible
mossy zinc
Phase 3 and I have 30 seconds to kill him assuming I don’t get hit once <:grubsa...
Sounds like a job for Beowulf.
flat flicker
Did you know that Fidi can block enemy projectiles for you?
i did not
undone tartan
I died
sand temple
just pray for no lasers
jaunty falcon
I think I'm going to do RI2 EM3 AP2 for future Beowulf high heat runs lol
mossy zinc
Why no EM4?
jaunty falcon
Hard
undone tartan
I barely got hit but the fight took like 4+ minutes to even get to phase 3
jaunty falcon
Modded means AP2 is slightly easier for first boon
undone tartan
I have to go to class in like 15 minutes
mossy zinc
Time for a 50 Heat speedrun.
undone tartan
Damn that run was so insanely lucky
jaunty falcon
What's stopping you from playing Hades?
undone tartan
I had almost everything
Didn’t have Mirage Shot though
Because I had to sell my Poseidon core boon in Tartarus and didn’t get another
mossy zinc
Doesn't look like it. No Grasp or Shot until the Temple of Styx, very few poms on your Cast, no Mirage Shot, no Snow Burst...
undone tartan
5x divine dashes, Patroclus, 2-sack, charged shot, extra Athena DD
jaunty falcon
Charged shot makes EM4 harder
mossy zinc
Epic Greatest Reflex was lucky. That's about it imo.
undone tartan
CHARGED SHOT
jaunty falcon
I'm seeding ferocious guard for my future beo heaties
flat flicker
im off my charged shot beo kick
undone tartan
I’d argue that everything I said was very lucky. Without Patroclus I would have died a full minute faster
flat flicker
only really shines with festive fog
undone tartan
I'm seeding ferocious guard for my future beo heaties
What?? Why?
undone tartan
only really shines with festive fog
That’s so insanely wrong
undone tartan
Ferocious Guard is good but it’s not as good as Charged Shot there’s just no way
mossy zinc
You were missing all the things that make Beowulf so good at high heat, though.
flat flicker
That’s so insanely wrong
can i post something without you telling me im wrong like, one time
undone tartan
I mean sure?
undone tartan
Ok? Charged Shot is an insane damage increase
undone tartan
??
undone tartan
Charged Shot is so much better
mossy zinc
Yeah, Sudden Rush is def the more popular high heat pick over Charged Shot.
flat flicker
then you pick up casts immediately rather than having to chase em
mossy zinc
Not for me personally because I don't care and just want the damage.
undone tartan
I think Charged Shot is the best hammer in the game
vital grove
Rush gives you mobility and I frames
jaunty falcon
Charged shot is amazing for speedruns no question
flat flicker
how much damage is it
jaunty falcon
But global damage is valued as well
flat flicker
like doesnt most of the damage come from cast stones
undone tartan
Nah
jaunty falcon
In Tartarus it can do 240 damage with no boons
jaunty falcon
And then you die to EM4
quartz mantle
Charged shot is goated I loaded up a 49 heat Beo run off a whim and made it to dad first try through a tony 4 sack with charged shot start
Died to time but like
undone tartan
And then you die to EM4
Me? I timed out
Sudden Rush would have done much less than CShot
Charged Shot is so much faster
jaunty falcon
Yeah I'm not disagreeing with you there
quartz mantle
Charged shot zooms especially if you have a panic button call like Athena
jaunty falcon
But it's a lot less safe in the EM4 fight
quartz mantle
Cause that takes care of the safety issue
undone tartan
Safety wasn’t an issue
solar maple
yeah I like cshot everywhere except em4
undone tartan
I got hit less than 10 times in the entire fight
solar maple
I hate it in em4
undone tartan
I still like it in EM4
quartz mantle
Maybe you timed out because you had to play a lot more carefully in the fight
Because charged shot is less safe
undone tartan
Maybe you timed out because you had to play a lot more carefully in the fight
No, I had 5 divine dashes (and almost 50% dodge chance with Second wind) so I really didn’t have to be too careful
quartz mantle
Well then idk what to tell you lol
undone tartan
What makes it so unsafe though?
I have way more control over where Zag is. That sounds like safety to me
Staying away from the boss and doing damage from a distance is way safer than having to get up in his face
jaunty falcon
When you release a charged shot bull rush you don't block
undone tartan
I could easily dash in, grab my stones, and repeat, especially with 5 divine dashes
undone tartan
When you release a charged shot bull rush you don't block
Sure but I just won’t release it when I’m getting hit
I don’t really get it
flat flicker
and then you sit there and hide behind the shield for a while
and then you take too long and die to TD
undone tartan
Bruh
eternal hare
not entirely wrong
undone tartan
It is actually
eternal hare
you're vulnerable for the time you shoot your casts + your casts pop out
flat flicker
also gotta chase the casts
undone tartan
I have 5 dashes. I was very safe
flat flicker
you wont always get that
mossy zinc
Your dashes don't have i-frames while your Casts go boom.
eternal hare
if you have divine dash you mitigate some of it but you also lose dash i-frames while the casts are popping out
undone tartan
you wont always get that
but you’re saying it’s why I lost my run
flat flicker
you said you lost on time
undone tartan
if you have divine dash you mitigate some of it but you also lose dash i-frames ...
Wait what? I did not lose that
flat flicker
five athena dashes arent gonna cause you to lose
undone tartan
you said you lost on time
You’re kinda bothering me rn
undone tartan
No
You’re saying “you lost because charged shot made you play slower” and then I say “no, I didn’t play slower because I had 5 dashes” and then you’re saying “you won’t always have 5 dashes”
We weren’t talking about always
flat flicker
yeah that run's over though
mossy zinc
Charged Shot or not, your build was on the low end for Beowulf damage.
quartz mantle
Charged shot in general is less safe than no charged shot
flat flicker
how are you gonna mitigate the getting the casts back fast this time
quartz mantle
Because with Beo you want to be dashing and bull rushing all the time, pretty much coating yourself in iframes
But charged shot removes that bull rush iframes
mossy zinc
It's not hard to get your Casts back asap with Charged Shot.
jaunty falcon
All you need is greater recall
mossy zinc
The issue for EM4 is just simply losing Dragon Rush spam for i-frames.
undone tartan
Charged Shot or not, your build was on the low end for Beowulf damage.
Yeah, that was mostly lack of Mirage Shot bc I had to sell my core Poseidon boon in Tartarus
quartz mantle
You also didn’t have snow burst or anything else to help with that
mossy zinc
Lack of any of the things I mentioned earlier, yeah.
quartz mantle
With a level 3 common cast
undone tartan
How are you guys arguing that
Charged shot is less safe
Charged shot is the reason I ran out of time despite not getting hit almost at all
It can’t be both
quartz mantle
You were stacked on safety but not damage so you lost to time
flat flicker
with mirage youd have gotten it i think
quartz mantle
Charged shot is not the reason you lost
undone tartan
with mirage youd have gotten it i think
I mean yeah easy
jaunty falcon
Mirage is not really something to shoot for at high heats imo
undone tartan
I have AP0
jaunty falcon
Especially with passion flare
mossy zinc
You also have CF2, though.
quartz mantle
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/868852801663565824/887726747062272010/i...
Nah they have no AP or RI
undone tartan
You also have CF2, though.
Gold wasn’t an issue, at least that run (although I did have Chaos gold)
quartz mantle
CF2 means overall less boons sure but you can still try for duos
Not that I would know
mossy zinc
Passion Flare into Smoldering Air is still more reliable with that, though.
jaunty falcon
Getting a 4 god pool (assuming you want Athena as well) is unreliable
undone tartan
If I’m not going for Mirage, what am I even supposed to go for?
jaunty falcon
Snow burst
undone tartan
That’s not gonna give me boss damage
jaunty falcon
Yes it will
quartz mantle
Killing freeze will
jaunty falcon
It's better than no mirage shot that's for sure
quartz mantle
Also snow burst on its own is pretty solid damage
mossy zinc
Poms, Snow Burst, Poms, Smoldering Air, Poms...
undone tartan
Also snow burst on its own is pretty solid damage
Not really for bosses
jaunty falcon
It's better than no mirage shot that's for sure
.
undone tartan
Right but not by much
mossy zinc
It's plenty.
quartz mantle
I can try to give you numbers to convince you you’re wrong but I doubt it’ll do much
mossy zinc
It's like a couple poms on your Cast.
jaunty falcon
It's at least 120 extra damage per volley
undone tartan
Is that what the high heat Beo runs do?
quartz mantle
Bottom line: snow burst good
undone tartan
I know it’s good
jaunty falcon
Is that what the high heat Beo runs do?
Yes
quartz mantle
I cleared EM4 CP2 with Beo cause I had Snow Burst Killing Freeze
flat flicker
snow burst is one of those boons i took 300 runs to realize it was good lol
took it on that weird rama meme beam run cause i needed chill for arctic blast
jaunty falcon
You should be casting really often on Beowulf anyway
flat flicker
welcome to the rotation snow burst
150 free AOE damage for playing what youd already be doing
pretty based
mossy zinc
Yeah, seagulls are experts on Snow Burst. Trust the cgull.
jaunty falcon
As in, more often than all other non-loading castspects
mossy zinc
Also happens a lot with normal encounters to give you more time in boss fights.
More damage is gud.
undone tartan
I don’t understand how? I believe it because great players are saying it is, but… all 3 will do like as much damage as like 2 attacks
mossy zinc
Surprisingly.
undone tartan
Also, I feel like I don’t have any to be that close to bosses, especially not with charged shot
jaunty falcon
That's pretty good right? For one boon
mossy zinc
I mean getting that much damage for free is good.
jaunty falcon
Also AOE and chill
quartz mantle
It’s literally free damage lol
And it’s a single boon
Mirage is better yes but it’s 3 boons
undone tartan
That's pretty good right? For one boon
For one boon? Yes. As a substitute for Mirage shot that’s supposed to give me enough boss damage to make up for it? Not really
flat flicker
does snow burst pop twice if you have mirage
jaunty falcon
Compare that to mirage shot with is double damage (no poms is sad) takes 3 boons and you might not even get it
quartz mantle
does snow burst pop twice if you have mirage
No
flat flicker
oh well
mossy zinc
Anything that gives you damage without forcing you away from your optimal DPS rotation is good.
Snow Burst does that.
quartz mantle
Snow burst is more consistent as well
jaunty falcon
Compare it to urge to kill
undone tartan
I’m not saying the boon isn’t amazing. I’m just saying I’m having trouble seeing how it’s good enough to make up for no mirage
eternal hare
watch the current top-2 50-heat speedruns
jaunty falcon
It's not about making up for mirage shot
quartz mantle
If you had snow burst you wouldn’t have timed out
undone tartan
I have no doubt it’s one of the best boons for Beo. You don’t need to convince me of that
quartz mantle
That’s just a fact
mossy zinc
Urge to Kill would have been something at least in that build. 
jaunty falcon
50 heat wr has a level 4 epic snow burst or something, doing 96(?) Damage
That's a lot of damage
That's better than mirage shot in the singular case that you get 0 poms on cast
solemn pulsar
Pseudo has done em4 fights with good cast, and the DPS mod on
Charged shot was doing 30% of the cast damage
flat flicker
you cant pom killing freeze or arctic blast but can pom snow burst right
solemn pulsar
It was literally a mirage shot
jaunty falcon
you cant pom killing freeze or arctic blast but can pom snow burst right
Yep
solemn pulsar
If mirage worked properly on Beowulf lmao
undone tartan
These arguments of “it’s just one boon” don’t mean anything. I know it’s just one boon, and it absolutely pulls it’s weight and more. But the issue is, I desperately needed boss damage (my champions fight was like 2 minutes long, it took me 4 minute to get to phase 3 against Hades), and I have trouble seeing how it does enough to make up for not having Mirage Shot that I should just ignore Mirage Shot
mossy zinc
I'd be sad if I got out of Tartarus with only a Lv.3 Cast and no Grasp or Shot or anything... and your build kind of never grew beyond that in damage.
quartz mantle
We are literally just repeating ourselves lmao
jaunty falcon
These arguments of “it’s just one boon” don’t mean anything. I know it’s just on...
I mean, you've kinda outlined the point
undone tartan
Alright I’ll believe it
mossy zinc
I mean DPS is not always intuitive. Kind of like how you don't really see Jolted do so much damage until you use a DPS meter.
flat flicker
maybe itll pay off
undone tartan
Fine
I’ll try it out
I’ll do my next run ignoring Mirage Shot (unless I get Poseidon and Artemis is Tartarus)
mossy zinc
Yeah, Mirage Shot is high roll.
jaunty falcon
Even in anyheat
flat flicker
dont force it
jaunty falcon
It's a highroll
flat flicker
if its not there
undone tartan
Well it’s not gonna be there unless I force it
mossy zinc
You just reset more in any heat yeah.
undone tartan
I’m not starting Poseidon
mossy zinc
I mean if you start Flood Shot, you should definitely go for Mirage Shot.
jaunty falcon
Yeah
undone tartan
Yeah for sure
mossy zinc
No good reason to start Flood Shot otherwise.
jaunty falcon
Cod
mossy zinc
No good reason to start Flood Shot otherwise.
quartz mantle
I love call of duty
undone tartan
Flood Flare damage isn’t enough with BP2 JS3 unless I get an early Mirage imo
mossy zinc
Not even the Summertime Challenge is a good reason to start Flood Shot otherwise.
undone tartan
Avoid Ares like the plague
Already do 
mossy zinc
Because you need to use Poseidon Aspect for that.
quartz mantle
Call of dusa
Who can I commission to make this
mossy zinc
Avoid Ares like the plague
But then how do you get Merciful End?
flat flicker
@mossy zinc how come
jaunty falcon
Sorry BIGP
undone tartan
I thought you hated Merciful End
flat flicker
just because you love aphro
jaunty falcon
Dio MEowulf time
flat flicker
or is there another reason why crush >>>> poseidon shot
quartz mantle
More damage
flat flicker
i think raw damage sure, but mirage
jaunty falcon
Weak as well
quartz mantle
It doesn’t fly halfway across the map when you miss
Mirage is only 30% on normal weapons
undone tartan
Yeah Flood Shot sucks
flat flicker
like why would u go aphro over poseidon on beo
quartz mantle
Passion flare is just stronger
jaunty falcon
And weak
quartz mantle
Like base damage wise
mossy zinc
The worst part about Flood Shot on Beowulf is that you can't get it.
mossy zinc
Makes it just not viable.
undone tartan
Flood Flare damage isn’t enough with BP2 JS3 unless I get an early Mirage imo
@flat flicker
jaunty falcon
The worst part about Flood Shot on Beowulf is that you can't get it.
You can if you get a replace I think?
flat flicker
oh yeah i missed that, thanks
jaunty falcon
I've definitely seen flood shot shown in victory screens
quartz mantle
Nah flood flare can work for sure, the large aoe lets you take care of groups easier
mossy zinc
Me too, yeah. No idea how that happens.
flat flicker
also opens up splash dash
quartz mantle
But passion flare takes less to get going
quartz mantle
You don’t want splash dash on Beo unless you already have charged shot
flat flicker
hurry up power a
quartz mantle
Time for MEowulf
mossy zinc
Any Cast can work on Beowulf. Some Casts are better than others.
quartz mantle
That is false
jaunty falcon
Huh, there are only 6 casts in the game
quartz mantle
Slicing flare simply doesn’t function
It doesn’t work
It’s not real
You can’t convince me otherwise
mossy zinc
Any Cast.
jaunty falcon
Icy flare might as well be shackle cast
mossy zinc
Icy flare might as well be shackle cast
But Shackle doesn't unlock Killing Freeze.
quartz mantle
Icy flare is like a mirage for your snow burst
mossy zinc
30% of your Snow Burst damage? I believe it.
quartz mantle
Less damage and smaller lol
mossy zinc
Thunder Flare <:thanthink:669246004142538753>
Any Cast.
flat flicker
ive kinda started to like electric shot on achilles spear
quartz mantle
Oh I’m just thinking of the icy flare 40 run I did where I got small flare glitch in the middle of asphodel and had it for the rest of my run
quartz mantle
Small icy flare is just ingrained in my brain
Doesn’t even work with mirage lmao
Thunder flare moment
undone tartan
Does Thunder Flare at least do ok damage? Or is it tiny damage tiny aoe
I can’t remember, I’ve never done it
quartz mantle
It is baby damage until you get Zeus boons
Then it functions properly
Double strike with jolted is pretty nice with it
mossy zinc
It's Thunder Dash but on your Cast.
undone tartan
solemn pulsar
yeah as soon as beo gets AP1, RI1, or CF2, i'd pivot to passion flare / snow burst PS personally
it's still an incredibly powerful weapon even without abusing mirage shot and other bugs
pseudo has cleared at 50 heat with every cast, including no cast, and i'm sure most if not all of them did not get mirage shot
flat flicker
Is there like any non meme reason to use thunder dash
mossy zinc
Gets rid of DC.
solemn pulsar
on weapons that dash a lot it hits a lot
mossy zinc
Any Dash is good with DC except Hunter Dash is situational.
solemn pulsar
Does Thunder Flare at least do ok damage? Or is it tiny damage tiny aoe
Thunder Flare:
This one is weird, since your cast does 0 damage and it summons a bolt. This means that braids, chaos shot boons, mirage shot, anything that buffs casts, DOES NOT WORK. it DOES NOT SCALE with cast damage.
That said, double strike is weird on it and gives you way more extra bolts than you should be getting. Double strike is basically your mirage shot
i love thunder flare, it's a lot of fun to mess around with
but it's not very good without charged shot + resetting for double strike, IMO
jaunty falcon
Once you defeat the final boss for the first time
willow shuttle
oh okay ty
solemn pulsar
Is it known how much damage double strike adds?
double strike is wack in general, it's been on my list for a while
it should be straightforward, but needs to be done in game to really test IMO
and i just haven't done it yet lol
solar maple
double strike procs way more than it should on thunder flare
I looked at the code, didn't understand it, then I asked ello to look. He looked found a bug, but that still didn't explain how many bolts you get
flat flicker
i feel like double strike does that with the call too
zeus call double strike is poggers
flat flicker
@mossy zinc you know everything, any input?
solar maple
harder to tell because you can't as easily see which bolts are from double strike, and which are just the next bolt in the call