But summoning between rolls affects that in a way that's probably not intended.
#h1-high-heat-strategies
mossy zinc
solemn pulsar
but if you keep track of the reward bag you could accurately predict your chances of rerolling to each other reward
as a strategy
so you know when you're wasting your rolls, or have a "free" roll to a boon available or something
mossy zinc
I personally think it's fine to do it in unseeded, but I want to hear what the community thinks.
solemn pulsar
i think you'd have to prove that it's an issue without doing it
and that casting demonstrably changes it
mossy zinc
Demonstrate the effect I've described?
solemn pulsar
with proof that it's violating the reward bag
in some way
or proof that with the reward bag in a certain way, rolling without casting will always produce one effect
while casting will always produce another, desired effect
otherwise it's just like summoning/casting before walking through a door when you're not on a route
mossy zinc
rolling without casting will always produce one effect
Doesn't need to be always. If it happens often enough and Casting will always prevent it, that's a clear effect.
But yeah, I can record it later or maybe tomorrow. Easy enough.
solemn pulsar
Make sure you get the whole run up to the roll for each trial so we can track the bag
mossy zinc
Yeah, understanding what exactly is happening would be nice. Authority is so weird tbh. 
That talent should come with a manual.
narrow carbon
When unseeded, you don’t know 100% what’s going to happen, so if a person wants to do rng manips to increase the odds of a particular outcome, I don’t see an issue. How you fill in your boons and god pool, when you roll, taking keepsakes, yarn, refreshing nectar, etc. - these are all tactics to increase the odds of a particular outcome
mossy zinc
When unseeded, you don’t know 100% what’s going to happen, so if a person wants ...
I wonder if there's anybody who doesn't read all of your messages in Poseidon's voice. I certainly do, I just noticed.
narrow carbon
lol. I joined the server after doing a first 40 with Gilgamesh and Tidal Dash, so it was the first avatar to come to mind
shy plinth
Do not use calisthenics program
It's a nightmare
You would be better served by basically anything, including FO2 or CF2
Otherwise, seems fine
mossy zinc
Let's put it this way:
How do you feel about giving Theseus 2,700 more HP?
Asterius 4,200 more HP.
And Hades 10,200 more HP?
No?
Okay, then take off CP2.
Are you giving Hades literally 113% of the HP that King Theseus has normally? Yes, you are.
Is that something you want to do?
mossy zinc
You would be better served by basically anything, including FO2 or CF2
I would take CP2 over FO2 any day of the weak just for ease of clearing with Excalibur.
Excalibur does not like FO2.
shy plinth
Eh
mossy zinc
I'd also take off FO1.
shy plinth
I play a lot of arthur with fo2 on
Maybe just used to it by now
Enemies walk into my sweeps faster
mossy zinc
HL5 BP2 FO2?
shy plinth
Oh hell nah hl5
mossy zinc
Exactly.
shy plinth
I mean if I were looking for heat in that pact I would probs go td3
mossy zinc
Yeah.
shy plinth
I find arthur to be plenty fast
mossy zinc
TD3 and CF2.
Even if you get a bad Elysium or something and time out, you know you just have to try again and not get unlucky.
As opposed to doing a TD2 pact and having a harder time regardless of your room luck.
bronze rapids
so swap CP and FO for TD3 and CF2?
mossy zinc
Yeah.
bronze rapids
ok. And just dash strike a lot right?
mossy zinc
Just stay in your Hallowed Ground and swing, pretty much. That works just fine.
FO0 enemies make swings pretty easy.
And your swings do a lot of damage.
Nyaanyaa's 32 Heat Guide
HL5 LC4 CF2 EM3 BP2 MM UC TD3
Stubborn Defiance
Eternal Rose > Owl Pendant > Lucky Tooth/Acorn > Acorn
bronze rapids
by swing you mean the regular attack right
bronze rapids
cool thanks
mossy zinc
You can either take Ruthless Reflex for the evasion bonus to your eHP or Greater Reflex for more dashes.
I actually like Ruthless more.
On Excalibur, I mean.
But you'll lose time trying to get to enemies.
But if you get Greatest Reflex, that will solve that easily enough.
Gods' Pride and Gods' Legacy are both good.
bronze rapids
hmm I've never taken Ruthless Reflex before
gaunt fiber
It's fine on shield
For slower weapons I'd avoid it
But it depends on what heat setup you are, if you can afford taking a few hits then it's fine
The problem of Arthur in high heat is the delay between your attacks. It's especially true for bosses. Up to 45 heat or so, you can reliably go for a face tank build : damage reduction, health and dodge (smoldering air/second wind for example).
Arthur does not really need two dashes given the nature of the combo, so you could see some benefit in ruthless reflex.
However, it also means you'll lose mobility to reposition yourself or safely dodge an attack. That's why I said it varies on the pact. I would not do EM4 with one dash on Arthur
Or take it and just pray for Hermes to be kind 
narrow carbon
I’ve now beaten my 32 heat zag bow PB (which was 3 sack) with both 4 sack and 5 sack by over a minute, so I guess once I get a 2 sack I’ll be sub-10 and can move on to another aspect, hah. Is this the usual way of things for speedruns?
devout quiver
Ruthless saved my life w/ 32 Gilgamesh
gaunt fiber
Yeah ruthless Gilgamesh is definitely the way to go
gaunt fiber
I’ve now beaten my 32 heat zag bow PB (which was 3 sack) with both 4 sack and 5 ...
Yeah, Styx is the worst. I played a tiny bit of any heat and my PB is a 3 sack too
narrow carbon
I understand why modded is so popular now. At least I can tell I’m improving
I’d take barge and tiny vermin if it meant getting a 2 sack, hah
narrow carbon
Yeah. 32 is kind of nice because so few people are running it - any heat would be a major grind
ashen garnet
Oh, it would be definitely worth testing !
While doing Boonless, I do recall FA cycling between only 3 golden laurel options which are not necessarily gods. On the other hand, I recall that some rewards have duplicates in the pool (pls do correct me if I am wrong, it's been a while since the last time I checked).
Also, are the 5 Styx aisles doors picking and cycling through the same pool ? Feels like it's easier to influence odds when rolling FA at this spot to force the same reward twice/thrice or change elite aisles' rewards 
solemn pulsar
The base bag is 3x boon, 2x Pom/heart/coin, 1x first hammer/2nd hammer/Hermes/trial of the gods
Every time it can’t pull something from the bag to put on a door it refills it with that base, but leaves whatever was remaining as well
Styx uses the same pool
But there’s 5 and there can’t be non boon duplicates iirc so it’s easier to control
1st pom, and 2nd heart/coin is gated behind having 1 boon, 2nd pom is gated behind having 2 boons, 2nd hammer is gated behind elysium* , hermes is gated behind asphodel* , trial requires a certain depth and has a cooldown between them
trial also has the same requirements as midshop (2 door room prio) and has some rooms where it just can't happen (usually in asphodel)
narrow carbon
What are the asterisks for?
solemn pulsar
if you get an extension chaos/erebus in tartarus (chamber 13 chaos/erebus), and it has multiple exits, you can see a Hermes boon as a "free" reward in the chamber 14 "end shop". I know that's possible, I assume the same is possible with a 2nd hammer and a 24 "end shop" in asphodel, with an extension in either tartarus or asphodel.
Those use run depth not literal biome as limitations, so you can cheese them forward somehow
I did a write up on the reward bag in the speedrunning discord
narrow carbon
Thanks, and for the link too!
flat flicker
aight boyos, Rama zeus w legendary, 32 heat, full health, em4. Can we pull this off?
quartz mantle
ya
flat flicker
nope
absolutely demolished
lost all my defiances before took his first health bar
Why did i take em4
wanton plover
em4 
torn sluice
So after playing even more now, my opinions have greatly changed on a couple of things
Aphrodite and Poseidon's Calls might be my new favorites. Their ability to pull you out of the corner in a boss fight is mighty handy. Athena's is as well, but that has always been great in my opinion, since it's just free damage you can wail onto the enemies.
I am beginning to prefer God's Pride over God's Legacy, because it generally means better Hermes and Chaos stuff, or boons in general. Running with a Duo's power in mind is probably the ticket to high heat runs, but I think I find it frustrating when the game just doesn't let it happen, so I prefer the ability to have good, albeit unplanned options.
Jury Summons are beginning to hurt, the tighter the deadline is.
Frost Fair Blade's Special is NUTS.
shy plinth
Oh guan yu?
Yeah it's powerful
Pride is better unless you need a duo to function, which usually means ME or Mirage shot
torn sluice
Still can't get ME to work for me, I see it's potential, but the times I got it it felt rather underwhelming
torn sluice
I've gotten Nemesis, Demeter Fists, and yes those combinations
shy plinth
You should shred the world when you get that going
torn sluice
I'll get around to trying it again eventually
I mean, I'm not that deep into the difficulty game
I only just beat my first 20 heat
eternal hare
ME feels better if you manage to get impending doom and +dashes
also make sure you're pomming the doom appropriately
torn sluice
Just ran into Benefits Package 2 Flame Wheels.
Never doing that again.
They had the speed buff and teleport perk.
I was using the Celestial Sharanga
shy plinth
Takes some adjustment though you can make those blow up
Stand against a ledge, as soon as they flash white let them charge at you, dash through the ledge
They will blow up when they hit the wall after they flash white
Rama can still be played reasonably fast, def watch Tailesque vods if you haven't
shy plinth
It is by far the best advice for learning Rama
bronze rapids
**Nyaanyaa's 32 Heat Guide**
HL5 LC4 CF2 EM3 BP2 MM UC TD3
Stubborn Defiance
Ete...
forgot to ask the other day for Arthur 32: what boon(s) do I prioritize from Lady Aphrodite, and what to take for Asphodel if I also got Athena in Tartarus?
mossy zinc
Heartbreak Strike is the one you want to start with. If she doesn't offer it, Passion Dash can be pretty good if it's rare, and it has good pom scaling.
Other than that.
Life Affirmation, Differnet League, Broken Resolve, Sweet Surrender, Unhealthy Fixation are mostly what you want.
Her Call is really good, too.
But you're hoping for Smoldering Air, for sure.
You'd take the Thunder Signet into Asphodel for Smoldering Air or the Owl Pendant for DDs. Both are fine.
bronze rapids
cool thanks
stuck harness
Uh, this isn't really a high heat question, but I'm not sure if the question kinda constitutes a spoiler since it's about later/end game so I'll ask here anyway. I'm currently working on maxing out relations with my last olympians for the final ending, and story people - have Meg and Than and their companions maxed. Still missing four companion unlocks but I'm in no rush to max the uses of them really.
There's a lot of weapon aspects I want to put blood into still, but I've done the Fates for blood and I'm currently at zero blood, farming it one heat level at a time. However I'm sitting on 26 Ambrosia. Can I safely change some of that Ambrosia for blood, or should I hang on to it still? (No spoilers about end-story and such please, just wanted to lay out my situation so you can answer the question)
jovial swallow
You could farm out Titan blood at Styx if you really wanted to
stuck harness
I have like 4 olympians I haven't given Ambrosia to yet, as well as maybe 4-5 Chtonic ones, so I reckon I'd be fine with 10 or so for now
stuck harness
You could farm out Titan blood at Styx if you really wanted to
How?
honest kernel
if ur starving for blood exchange half of ambrosia og
you'll need a lot of both 🤷♀️
gaunt fiber
Ambrosia is less needed iirc
I spent a lot of them in blood
with the special offer though, one for one
stuck harness
I guess my concrete question is: Are there any big Ambrosia dumps outside of maxing out companion levels, or is everything else just one at a time to build relations?
gaunt fiber
what you said yeah
honest kernel
its just companions iirc
stuck harness
Cool, I'll snatch some bloods at the vendor then 🙂 Cheers
bronze rapids
you can ask stuff like this in the main discussion, it's only the new players channel that has spoiler rules
next acorn
Getting Dusa's bond takes as much ambrosia as a companion does
amber jetty
You can get all of it back though
mossy zinc
Uh, this isn't really a high heat question, but I'm not sure if the question kin...
Spoilers are fine in the other channels, just not in #h1-for-new-players.
Oh, melonade already said that.
subtle cypress
doing my first 16 heat run
which will clear the 15 titan blood quest if i win
with a max upgraded chiron bow
gonna need some luck
should i start with artemis or pomflower
mossy zinc
subtle cypress
going good so far
the pool is ares, athena, dio, and posy
epic hangover on special
a single tag from that will do about 250 damage on hangover alone
im at elysium with all 3 defiances and 245 hp
curse of nausea
ahh
elyisum fountain
went from like 10 hp
up to 275
the issue is both my hammers suck
jaunty falcon
Overtime?
pseudo kernel
i walked into the dad fight with 2 min left because of a 3 sack
i had an athena DD but i lost it because i didnt block a spear throw
and butterfly balls destroyed my acorn
mossy zinc
2m is not enough for EM4.
pseudo kernel
i died at the end of phase 2
mossy zinc
Have you tried not doing that?
bronze rapids
- 50 heat
- bad
pseudo kernel
Have you tried just getting 100% dodge chance
ok i will do that
jaunty falcon
I've died to phase 1 dad with a level 5 cast and snow burst, then beat him with dodge chance with a level 2 cast. It sucks but it works
amber jetty
Have you tried simply beating him
amber jetty
or 5head doing the 50 heat run as your 10th run and then not needing to fight hades
pseudo kernel
i will do that
ripe ermine
Hit him with your shield next time
jaunty falcon
Can you even unlock EM4 by then?
pseudo kernel
Hit him with your shield next time <:dusa:522248771409543188>
wait how do you do that
jaunty falcon
If not then it might as well be 49 heat
amber jetty
Can you even unlock EM4 by then?
no but thats not the point
do people speedrun things like 50 heat?
mossy zinc
They've also probably done more escape attempts at 50+ than you've done attempts at all.
amber jetty
probably, only at like 100 something
mossy zinc
Start on Chiron.
mossy zinc
No, you want her Attack, anyway.
Then get Drunken Flourish or Deadly Flourish.
Ideally.
amber jetty
Low tolerance on chiron is really strong
mossy zinc
Yeah, especially with Privilege Status.
And you build god gauge super fast, so make sure you get a Call on Chiron.
autumn ginkgo
Which should I sell? I'm thinking second wave but I'm not sure
Hestia 40 going into styx
jaunty falcon
Second wave
autumn ginkgo
Alright
jaunty falcon
Looks like you already have breaking wave, that should be more than enough
autumn ginkgo
Yeah, I just didn't know if it was worth it for extra damage vs hades
mossy zinc
Second Wave doesn't do extra damage to Hades.
autumn ginkgo
Oh that makes it an easy decision then
mossy zinc
Those 400 obols are better spent elsewhere.
ripe ermine
Do you have many chambers left for LA?
autumn ginkgo
I haven't taken any styx chambers yet
I think there are like 2 hearts i might be able to get
mossy zinc
What hammers do you have?
eternal hare
Having a source of weak may be worth more than potentially whatever extra hp you get from LA
ripe ermine
Probably the special is more effective Health at this point?
autumn ginkgo
I have rockets and targeting
Didn't get any attack hammers offered other than seeking
mossy zinc
Get Heartbreak Flourish.
autumn ginkgo
Alright
mossy zinc
Well, you didn't time out this time.
So that's progress.
But also, you died again, so that's... that's not progress.
pseudo kernel
ok
devout quiver
uber dad spooky
mossy zinc
Hello there, still-alive person! 
honest kernel
T'was a random 60-heat run I did among my 61 heat attempts
Which died to EM4. No surprise there
mossy zinc
It's like EM4 is hard or something. 
bronze rapids
the fact that the routed 64 heat has a bouldy boon makes me happy
bronze rapids
(literally just finished watching it Lol)
honest kernel
Still kinda mad I went all drama mode and just wiped my vods
Urgh
Best hope it doesn't happen again
bronze rapids
when you paused a lot at Elysium and Styx to move the mouse, is that also a RNG manip?
honest kernel
The pause, no
I was just double-checking the notes
Tons of summon calls right there, and If I screw 'em up, run's likely over on the spot
Me moving the mouse was just a tic
A nervous one, most likely
bronze rapids
ah.
bronze rapids
Still kinda mad I went all drama mode and just wiped my vods
yeah I feel that too sometimes
nice work though!
honest kernel
Glad the vod at 'least was saved somewhere, even if without my consent
Wasn't just my work either. Was Cgull's too
He did most of the route
I was just playing it
Anyways. Gonna do more attempts at some point. If I ever decide to do them on Twitch, I'll say it here
unique zephyr
Welcome back, Baj!
devout quiver
👋
heady olive
welcome back lol
mossy zinc
My upload speed can't keep up with my clear speed, my submissions are behind.
Oh, Damue submitted a 58 Heat Zeus Aspect yesterday.
solemn pulsar
I was just playing it
This was the hard part!!!! Also you found the midshop fix + the reroll fix after tart + redid the bit of Styx to get splitting bolt again, so you definitely deserve “co authorship” on the route. Team effort, but you definitely did the hard part 🙂
gaunt fiber
autumn ginkgo
I have a few questions about running 50 heat:
A: What would be the optimal pact setup for Hestia? This is what I currently have but i'm not too sure of it
B: Is it worth taking ruthless reflex?
C: Which god should I be going for on attack / Which god keepsake order should I be taking?
honest kernel
ruthless isnt worth
and uh
em4 hard but you can try
I prefer aphro atk for hestia
autumn ginkgo
I know that poseidon dash is pretty important, but I can't really decide between demeter attack, art attack and aphro attack
autumn ginkgo
So should I just be taking eternal rose in tartarus and waiting for poseidon / athena to show up?
honest kernel
I forced athena in asphodel on my 50 clear
but yeah eternal rose start or shackle start is standard
shackle is great if you use ap2
autumn ginkgo
em4 hard but you can try
If I don't take em4 what would I replace the 4 heat with?
I guess maybe ap2 cp1
or cf2
autumn ginkgo
Alright i'll try that setup after this run
jaunty falcon
I did EM3 RI2 AP2
upper stirrup
Is there a trick to being able to run this easier? Should I be looking for specific boons or using a specific companion or is it just a skill factor? Sometimes I feel like the dmg I’m out putting isn’t very high and it takes me awhile to clear Hades and other bosses…I see others melt through them, any help would be great.
upper stirrup
Higher heats
honest kernel
if you ask about which aspect you want to run at high heat we are able to give you more solid answers
pacts are also very important
what heat are you aiming for
nocturne stag
Is there a trick to being able to run this easier? Should I be looking for speci...
If you're seeing people in here melting through Hades, they're Speedrunners don't compare yourself to them fictd
honest kernel
I'd say demolishing hades isnt that hard as long as you got an op build
and lower heats give you that very easily
upper stirrup
@honest kernel I’m only just starting off and at 5 what do you mean knowledge?
upper stirrup
@nocturne stag oh…how do you get to a point where you can speed run?
honest kernel
5 is pretty low... with knowledge I mean what builds to aim for and how to optimize
upper stirrup
@jaunty falcon tips or point me where? 😅
jaunty falcon
A lot of it comes down to maxing out the mirror completely
And then getting good Hermes boons
nocturne stag
<@452166310156173312> oh…how do you get to a point where you can speed run?
A lot of time and darkness
upper stirrup
@honest kernel ohhh any suggestions on where I can see some vids to learn?
honest kernel
I think haelian made vids let me see
upper stirrup
@jaunty falcon Hermès boons…I never know which ones to grab lol I grab what I think synergies best
amber jetty
Haelian has a 0-32 heat guide
jaunty falcon
For damage, either greatest reflex or hyper sprint + rush delivery
upper stirrup
@amber jetty where lol 😆
amber jetty
and watching high level players play in general is helpful, if you think about what they do and why
honest kernel
upper stirrup
@honest kernel thank you!!!
quartz mantle
@upper stirrup There are some general build stuff that you should know about when you’re increasing your heat
Ex: weapons that attack quickly with low base damage like rail or fists want attacks that give a flat increase like Zeus, Dionysus, or Ares, weapons that have a higher base damage want percent increase boons like Aphrodite or Artemis
quartz mantle
You should also look at duo boons since those are typically how you define your build
upper stirrup
@quartz mantle that’s super helpful thank you!
quartz mantle
Ie: if I’m trying to use Nemesis sword, and I start with Artemis attack I’m gonna try to force Aphrodite in asphodel to get her special and go for Heart Rend to make my crits even stronger
amber jetty
There are also some common strats like merciful end/zeus + poseidon
quartz mantle
There’s also the ZAP (Zeus Artemis Poseidon) combo on rail which doesn’t really have a duo boon you just go for Zeus attack Artemis special and Poseidon dash and kill everything very quickly
upper stirrup
Weapon wise any reason to go bow over shield or personal pref?
quartz mantle
Any weapon works
jaunty falcon
All weapons are good
quartz mantle
The game is very balanced until you start to get to some crazy high heat numbers
upper stirrup
I prefer bow but…wasn’t sure if I should be moving to sword or something else
quartz mantle
Nah you’re good
jaunty falcon
It's good to play all weapons, but it's fine if you have a favourite one
upper stirrup
@quartz mantle awesome thank you!
@jaunty falcon I’m def worse with melee 😅
Thank you everyone for your responses this was insanely helpful!!!!
quartz mantle
No problem, experimenting is half the fun in this game so don’t be afraid to try new things
After all those prophecies aren’t going to complete themselves
amber jetty
Also come back to some of the weapons, I hated some of them when I started but after getting some experience I found I like them a lot more
upper stirrup
@amber jetty appreciate the advice
mossy zinc
@upper stirrup https://youtu.be/ZwM2kMKgtdU
upper stirrup
@mossy zinc thx!
mossy zinc
9 new runs on the board.
solemn pulsar
nyaanyaa has been muted for emote spam on the submissio notes
reef furnace
Joke's on you, I make the rules.
mossy zinc
<:floffWhat:711664978872238111>
NYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! https://tenor.com/view/utena-tenjou-nanami-manga-anime-gif-12913100
pseudo kernel
Bruh
pseudo kernel
No
mossy zinc
@pseudo kernel you should submit your runs to the leaderboard.
pseudo kernel
No
mossy zinc
Even if you only have screenshots, we have a sheet for that.
It'll help other players to see what worked at high heat and stuff.
elfin rock
muck seems pretty adamant
gaunt fiber
PP man is speed
gaunt fiber
a mere stumble
gaunt fiber
61 has been cleared by ykc
I wonder if CP2 is the ultimate barrier for unseeded play
honest kernel
I feel like ri4 is also a biggie because it demands no mistakes 
but yeah cp2 might just die to the timer everytime
solemn pulsar
assuming CP2 just extends everything by 13% (the multiplicative HP increase over CP1) and doesn't increase difficulty in other ways (which is not true in both directions obviously), the (amazing) time ykc got for 61 would have been 20:27, so he would have died to timer, even in that ideal scenario
and that's on an 18 minute 61 heat clear
so yeah i can see that
quartz mantle
CP2 is just gonna require a much stronger build which is less and less realistic at higher heat
62 might be feasible seeded but unseeded just feels unreasonable
Although I guess that begs the question of would you seed Zeus special with Mom Pom start or Explosive Return and hope for a good Zeus boon?
eternal hare
the 5-boon build that ykc had was about the best possible one you could get
it'd probably be a matter of getting the boons earlier, getting a better pom distribution or just getting better spawns
quartz mantle
Here's the victory screen btw https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/787779476888354816/874231854146916402/Screenshot_2021-08-09-18-04-33-74_77f586b5f5aad2db5e8f6b368c58e567.jpg?width=1020&height=459
jaunty falcon
The pommed epic jolted looks key
quartz mantle
yea 6 poms on Demeter Call could have gone towards Double Strike or Jolted for better overall damage but there's not much else this build could get outside of Splitting or Killing Freeze
solemn pulsar
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Nq4y1Q7eU
the vod btw
quartz mantle
Oh sick the vod is up
pseudo kernel
i can clear 45 heat easily
which is pretty pog
so i just have to practice the em4 fight more
quartz mantle
Big special
mossy zinc
CP2 is just gonna require a much stronger build which is less and less realistic...
Rooms > builds, though.
quartz mantle
Yea but controlling rooms is a lot harder than controlling your build
mossy zinc
Yeah. My point is you still need good rooms more than you need a good build.
the (amazing) time ykc got for 61 would have been 20:27, so he would have died to timer, even in that ideal scenario
More free rooms, and that's a comfortable sub 20.
quartz mantle
I'm not saying seeding makes it free just way more reasonable
you'll still need free rooms but you won't have to worry about the build as much as unseeded
mossy zinc
Right. Wasn't arguing about seeded anyway. My point is just your build doesn't need to be that much better than for CP1 if the rooms save you time.
solar maple
this build/rooms is enough for cp2 I think
I don't think cp2 is quite a 13% time increase, and you might have to play em4 more agressively
but you can't really ask for more rooms than that elysium skip :p
solar maple
Yea but controlling rooms is a lot harder than controlling your build
this just isn't really true with RI2 AP2 lol
gaunt fiber
Well you don't have build control besides first boon
But even less room control
What can you do, push a miniboss and get a patty denied? Yay
honest kernel
I'll say this much
The Tartarus/Asphodel weren't that fast. That run was pretty much saved by the Elysium being skipped, and the fantastic build
YKC having 6 minutes and a half against EM4 is ... pretty darn rare, from my experience
And he probably could have saved a minute by being more aggro against EM4 alone
But he didn't need to
His run definitely had a shot at CP2
lost junco
hey can someone give me some recommendations for 16 heat?
gaunt fiber
In the pinned messages, you have a heat chart that is pretty good
There's some heat you'll absolutely want to avoid (RI, AP)
The rest is up to you. I would not go for CP and JS, not fun
this could be a possibility
TD3 is also very doable, lots of ways to get to 16
you can even put the heat of FO somewhere else
bronze rapids
I think RI1 or AP on its own isn't bad at 16 heat on a weapon you're proficient at. it's not the easiest for sure but I find it pretty fun. Shackle is your friend.
Damage Control L2 is also a good pick for fists, not-Hestia rail and Zeus shield
gaunt fiber
there's no reason to take RI
it's not only less boons, it's less poms, less gold, less health
Worst 2 heats to take alone
bronze rapids
which in my experience makes the game more fun.
mossy zinc
Just take whatever you like at 16, and give it some tries; then come back when you're struggling, and let us know what it is you're struggling with.
bronze rapids
like of course I won't take it at 32, but on 16 it sort of forces me to physically play the weapon
lost junco
cool... what talents do you guys reccommend?
also is it just me or is death defiance better than stubborn defiance
gaunt fiber
Death defiance is better as long as you don't have to deal with LC4, basically
mossy zinc
DDs are probably a lot better until LC4.
gaunt fiber
(which prevents any healing, hence stubborn defiance becomes your way to heal)
mossy zinc
Mirror talents depend on what you're going for with your builds and stuff.
gaunt fiber
I would also argue that DD also suffers from Hard Labor and FO2
it's a lot easier to get hit and for a lot of damage. Manageable with low lv of LC, probably
lost junco
the main worry for me about DD is against hades
mossy zinc
Dark Foresight is always the right choice. It's just so much stronger than Gods' Favor.
gaunt fiber
Yeah, DDs are much better for that indeed. SD forces you to hone your skills at bossing
or find Patroclus, a ton of hp and you're almost at the same point, if you find athena on the way
nocturne stag
or find Patroclus, a ton of hp and you're almost at the same point, if you find ...
Finds two Athena DD and a chaos, 3 of those and one sd
elfin rock
FO2 and DC1 are fine with gloves/some swords imo
bc im insane i do dc1 and FO2 with arthur most times
nocturne stag
using dc2 and fo2 and hs
elfin rock
nocturne stag
Is that bad?
bronze rapids
HS can go bad quickly
teal owl
hs?
bronze rapids
high security
unique zephyr
I don’t like heightened security until 40 heat personally
jaunty falcon
It definitely takes time to adjust
I've had to take it in 32 heat speedruns, not fun saying goodbye to half of your health in tartarus
elfin rock
150 damage for green pots in dad fight
bronze rapids
don't step on them ez /s
or idk take Sure Footing.
narrow carbon
I've had to take it in 32 heat speedruns, not fun saying goodbye to half of your...
I just tell myself “well, it just brings me closer to popping an SD which I was going to do eventually anyway”
Though Furies are faster if you go in without having lost an SD
ripe ermine
Eat it 50 heat superdad https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/874423656149819482/image0.jpg
reef flame
is it possible to win on max heat?
reef flame
ok
quartz mantle
Beo good
icy sail
It's been a while, but I've finished 32 heat on all weapons, now for all aspects
wanton plover
good luck
bright mango
Eat it 50 heat superdad https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/72502163950652624...
Ayy join the 50 zoos gang
mossy zinc
Eat it 50 heat superdad https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/72502163950652624...
Congratulations!
You can submit your run to the high heat leaderboard.
stuck harness
I’m currently farming blood and darkness by just increasing heat to new minimum and mostly doing dark thirst weapons, but I figure I want to start practicing for higher heats while I’m at it. So I’m thinking of still doing my 10ish heat runs but with alternating maxed Forced Overtime and Lasting Consequences - is this smart or am I just punishing myself for no gain? Anything else I should start doing to practice?
(I’ve cleared EM4, but only once - gonna start running that a bit more too)
gaunt fiber
if you want to grind heat, you'll definitely have to get used to FO2 and TD3
then, LC4 and stubborn defiance
unique zephyr
For learning forced overtime always keep it on for every run for a while
You want your muscle memory to get used to the faster speed
elfin rock
it does make me regret quite a few thigns tho
cause it's alright in tartarus
i never like asphodel so i usually struggle a bit there
lernie is alright with FO2 but the heroes not so much imo
and flamewheels are so painful
mossy zinc
If Flame Wheels are a problem, get Divine Dash. That will solve that. You can just Dash-Strike to kill them, and deflect the explosion.
But only Malphon actually needs that.
Well, you could kill them with them Uppercuts.
Or have them crash into obstacles.
You'll also get at least one boon from Lord Hermes before Elysium, so you can reliably get dashes or Hyper Sprint or something else to help you deal with Flame Wheels.
gaunt fiber
Yeah FO2 is really hard
mossy zinc
King Theseus and Asterius are a matter of practice, but they also test your build. Even if they give you trouble with FO2, a good build will shred through them before they can take more than one DD, especially if you take the Acorn, which is a perfectly fine choice for Elysium if you're not feeling too confident in the fight.
If it's just EM2 FO2, most of your problems can be solved by just getting better at your DPS rotations and better at making strong builds.
Fact of the matter is most players who struggle with a pact like that have very weak builds compared to what's doable, so aside from practicing a lot, of course, make sure you look at what makes strong meta builds strong and ask more questions, study the decisions of top players, etc.
Similarly for DPS rotations and such.
There's no need to reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of strong players you can learn from.
A lot of new players can get into speedrunning very quickly nowadays just copying what better players do and then figuring out things from there.
It can also lead to a kind of mentality where there are only "right" and "wrong" builds with no room for exploration, which I don't recommend, but a lot of the same skills that are necessary for speedruns are necessary for high heat, which is why I made that analogy.
mossy zinc
If Flame Wheels are a problem, get Divine Dash. That will solve that. You can ju...
Also about that, an important skill to learn for high heat is to look at problems that you'll likely encounter in your runs and plan ahead for them. Divine Dash is one way to plan ahead for Flame Wheels. More dashes or movement speed is another way.
elfin rock
i see
thanks for the advice
ill save it somewhere
is it bad to rely on divine dash?
i find that i struggle so much more without it
mossy zinc
It's not bad, no.
If something is working well for you, it's just good strategy to use it.
amber jetty
What does divine dash change about the dash? aside ofc from deflect and damage
elfin rock
i often struggle with good builds for the bow and rail
a bit with teh shield as well
but the sword and fists are alright
mossy zinc
I'd even say lean even more heavily into anything that works well for you.
mossy zinc
Maybe, but there's plenty to learn about optimizing those things that work well for you.
elfin rock
i do see the appeal in passion dash and dio dash
for the status thingy
but u can get hat with divine dash
it just takes a but more
mossy zinc
Privileged Status is a super rare pick at high heat, anyway.
It's only 15% more than Family Favorite.
elfin rock
o
mossy zinc
Well, +15% over FF, not 15% more. But yeah.
elfin rock
i should maybe switch hen
mossy zinc
Probably.
elfin rock
thanks for the advice 
eternal hare
yeah, nothing wrong with relying on divine dash on heat, especially if you're only going for a single clear or something like that
if you're interested in becoming consistent though that's when you might start running into trouble
you may begin to rely on it too much as a crutch instead of properly learning how enemies move and attack which reduces the odds of you succeeding without it
mossy zinc
is it bad to rely on divine dash?
FYI, bablo did Owl Pendant start like literally 48 times when he did his 40 Heat streak with all aspects twice.
@proud jay or did you start something else for any aspects?
honest kernel
only when dealing with ap2 I'm giving up on divine dash
otherwise I'll usually try to get it
mossy zinc
Calling good boons a "crutch" always struck me as odd tbh.
eternal hare
I mean, if it is preventing you from properly learning how enemies move and attack, what else would it be?
or I guess if it is allowing you, rather
it can be both a good boon and a crutch for learning
they're not mutually exclusive
mossy zinc
I have a real issue with "properly learning" there.
eternal hare
is that not what it is? you can get away with not fully understanding the actual hitboxes of so many things with it
mossy zinc
Any high DPS build lets you get away with a lot of things.
honest kernel
I did lose a run because I autopiloted divine dash/sprint dash timing on hades attacks without having it
proud jay
FYI, bablo did Owl Pendant start like literally 48 times when he did his 40 Heat...
lightning strike/flourish for a few aspects and maybe a cast
gaunt fiber
Yeah divine dash leads to some mistakes
proud jay
pretty sure i started hera with crush shot for example
proud jay
like rail really struggles without an attack boon
and kinda doesn't need divine dash as badly because attack destroys enemy projectiles lol
same for spear actually
honest kernel
but I think these are more extreme heater issues
because normally divine dash is ez to get
proud jay
it's AP that forces you to play non-divine dash builds
mossy zinc
same for spear actually
M getting flashbacks to you dash-striking into many witch projectiles with Guan Yu and throwing your first or second attempt at the streak lol.
proud jay
mistakes were made
yeah dash-striking into projectiles doesn't really work, but you can normal attack projectiles with spear easily
not as much with guan yu tho
gaunt fiber
You can try you'll destroy one
And then eat three
But tbh guan yu's first attack is fine
elfin rock
that one miniboss chamber with teh ton of of witches is painful with FO2
mossy zinc
is that not what it is? you can get away with not fully understanding the actual...
It doesn't matter if somebody doesn't learn what you think is the "proper" way of dealing with enemy attacks if their strategy is effective at getting the results they want.
eternal hare
I agree
mossy zinc
not as much with guan yu tho
Guan Yu's Special is excellent at destroying projectiles, thankfully, if you account for the slow startup.
patent sinew
Still, there is a proper way. And then there's a crutch. Nothing wrong with having a crutch. Especially if it eventually leads to the same result.
nocturne stag
crutch is good
next acorn
It can be very easy to be too dependent on divine dash and thus struggle when you don't have it.
too an extent every boon is like that though
its just very present with divine dash
not necessarily a bad thing though because when you get it your gaming
icy sail
I just take it if I see it, it helps with the clear, idgaf if it means I'm a bit reliant on it to achieve my high heat clears
grave bluff
Hello, do I still get the bounties for clearing 11 heat onwards, or do I only get darkness?
merry otter
you get rewards until heat 20
grave bluff
Great. I was afraid of losing motivation to play. I really need more Titan's blood.
cinder cave
coming back from a long break and looking to spruce things up by going EM4 exclusive
never got around to learning hades aspect much, any build advice?
devout quiver
ranged aspects make the fight "easier"
the fight is never really easy though
Even at just, like, 10 heat EM4 its tough
cinder cave
yeah my first new run after the break is 10 heat EM4
xd
cerberus can do like 100 damage so looking forward to that
patent sinew
Cerberus is the hardest part
cinder cave
if i can highroll divine protection that shouldn't be too hard
just don't remember EM4 patterns at all
devout quiver
Phase 1 with all the mini bosses is the toughest part for me
devout quiver
if i can highroll divine protection that shouldn't be too hard
"just high roll" is probably the best advice lol
devout quiver
any hades aspect specific advice?
Uhm, get massive spin or exploding launcher/charge skewer
cinder cave
so "just highroll" is on the mind
patent sinew
You guys making me wanna boot up tbe Hades for another EM4 run
cinder cave
do it
thanks for the advice
massive spin does sound excellent
just doing this run on GY
devout quiver
I don't play as much as i used to
patent sinew
I stopped playing after 3rd Skelly statue
devout quiver
but when i do play, its either wrapping up bounties, chiron 32 attempts or 23 heat em4
patent sinew
Nothing left for me
cinder cave
I stopped playing after 3rd Skelly statue
i was gonna go for 40 heat but
i got bored after 32
patent sinew
devout quiver
I want 32 heat on all weapons.
probably not all aspects though.
quartz mantle
I personally love seeing that “max heat” number go up
devout quiver
After that I just wanna get good at EM4
quartz mantle
I think if I can get the 55 CF0 clear I’ll be satisfied
devout quiver
I never play without FO2
patent sinew
I strictly used EM4 after unlocking it purely for all the heat
cinder cave
it's pretty inefficient heat though
quartz mantle
EM4 is tough at higher heat
cinder cave
you can actually lose to EM4
devout quiver
after playing with FO2 for so long, turning off Forced Overtime makes the game feel sluggish
devout quiver
you can actually lose to EM4
lmao, quote of the century
cinder cave
after playing with FO2 for so long, turning off Forced Overtime makes the game f...
it's like playing an RTS on fastest and then queuing into a game of normal speed
your brain is just like wtf
devout quiver
I can't play Stellaris anymore because even on fastest its sooooooo slow in the late game, because lag
cinder cave
also anyone playing on normal speed in RTS
actually Stellaris is a good point
haven't tried it since Nemesis release
but that's offtopic :P
cinder cave
thanks for the advice btw
devout quiver
Its just down to getting a build that has enough DPS really.
Then getting to the fight so that you can practice it.
I can say the obvious things like "kill the pots in phase 3" or "hug the south corner during cerberus" but really the long and short is just learning the patterns so you can dodge better
and also getting good miniboss rng in phase 1
cinder cave
~~and also getting good miniboss rng in phase 1~~
i am currently lowrolling
so inevitably i will skilfully highroll the minibosses
bronze rapids
also anyone playing on normal speed in RTS <:thanthink:669246004142538753>
AoE PVP uses normal speed (or just not the fastest iirc) for better micro
cinder cave
that's how RNG works right
cinder cave
AoE PVP uses normal speed (or just not the fastest iirc) for better micro
i like faster modes in games what i can i say
same reasoning as FO2
better players will thrive
worse players will suffer
main reason i've always queued fastest mode rtses
patent sinew
Is it really that inefficient? Seemed like it gave a lot just for fighting a slightly harder Hades
devout quiver
"slightly" harder is the understatement of the century
EM4 kills you dead
especially when you playing with HL5, LC4+SD, FO2
cinder cave
as far as i'm concerned, most of my losses since i've gotten experienced are either EM4 or TD3
if i'm aiming for an easy high heat run, i'd avoid these
LC4 by comparison is the free-est heat and scales up to the same as EM4
devout quiver
LC4 makes bosses harder and rooms easier, basically
EM4 makes one specific boss much more difficult to begin with
mossy zinc
Still, there is a proper way. And then there's a crutch. Nothing wrong with havi...
Still, there is a proper way. And then there's a crutch.
No, there isn't. If one strategy gets results easier than another, it doesn't make either strategy more or less proper—nor one of them a crutch. Making optimal use of Divine Dash still takes practice and experience, anyway.
patent sinew
There is. You can disagree with it, and that's fine. You can develop an entirely new technique with your crutches. Kung fu
gaunt fiber
I'm not sure crutches are legal for kung fu?
mossy zinc
If you don't take Divine Dash in your PB and I beat your PB more easily by taking Divine Dash, that's not a crutch, that's better strategy. The leaderboards won't care what you think is more "proper", you don't get any cookies for that.
Tidal Dash has very high base damage for everything in the game and destroys especially Satyr tunnels with wall-slams. That doesn't make it a crutch, it makes it good.
Divine Dash doesn't give those benefits, but it gives other benefits.
Calling things "crutches" doesn't lead to anything productive and if anything just shames players for using it when there's nothing wrong with that at all.
patent sinew
Once again, never said it's bad to use a crutch. You can even make it your weapon. But that's why the term exists. It is what it is
That being said, there's a difference between having a crutch and just having a different/better playstyle, which seems to be what you're going on about.
mossy zinc
Saying that you can't learn enemy attacks "properly" or anything like that with Divine Dash is a claim with no evidence, anyway.
No, that's not what m on about.
patent sinew
Sure. Good thing I didn't say that. But if someone clearly cant evade attacks without the use of Divine Dash, it's their crutch.
mossy zinc
¯_(ツ)_/¯
devout quiver
so is the arthur face tank build a crutch too
patent sinew
For me, yes.
nocturne stag
is this what a superiority complex looks like ? :P
patent sinew
Maybe. Give them some space.
devout quiver
Is rocket bombs + cluster bombs a crutch too
bronze rapids
so where does Flurry Jab on Achilles fall then
patent sinew
High heat, I just do Arthur tank. I cant be bothered learning the fights. So I just pull out the crutches and tank it.
Before high heat, my crutch was Cursed Sword
devout quiver
It just sounds like that's the strategy that helps you win more reliably
mossy zinc
Any boon will make things easier than boonless. Which would make anything a crutch. Again, not a productive term in any way.
patent sinew
I think you guys just take it too literally or too offensively
nocturne stag
Superiority complexes are so fun to watch
patent sinew
Who is superior?
devout quiver
Its just that "crutch" is a term than can lead to insinuating that someone is playing the game "wrong". Maybe that's not your intention, but you need to be aware of the tone your words can carry.
nocturne stag
No one, it's just some people think they're better than others for arbitrary reasons, and come off as elitist
patent sinew
I understand that. I have said that I haven't meant it in a bad way several times. Dont know about the other people using it here, but why would anyone care if you're playing the game "wrong"
patent sinew
Saying what?
patent sinew
Yeah. I never said I didnt mean that lol.
nocturne stag
When someone says "X is a crutch" 99.8% of the time it's to say that that playstyle is wrong or in some way bad for making the game easier
patent sinew
I see. Well, again, I dont mean it in a bad way.
devout quiver
Okay, but if in every other circumstance its a negative term... saying you dont mean it that way doesn't count for much when you keep on saying it
mossy zinc
If you keep saying there's a "proper way" that doesn't include using the "crutches", it implies that using the "crutch" is improper or wrong.
nocturne stag
^
patent sinew
Does it REALLY matter
devout quiver
Yes
nocturne stag
It does
patent sinew
Can you explain why. I'm not trying to be rude, but I want to understand why you care what someone thinks
devout quiver
implying that there's an improper way implies that someone should be ashamed for playing the game that way
nocturne stag
It comes across as elitist and rude regardless of intent
patent sinew
That's a stretch honestly. No one here who has used the term "crutch" has implied you should feel ashamed or even feel bad at all
But I get what you're saying, Scourge
devout quiver
It also can be seen as bad advice. if a new player reads that X strategy is a crutch, they might try to avoid it even though its a legitimate and effective strategy.
mossy zinc
It has a very real effect on what people feel comfortable talking or asking about, and it can give them a false sense of how to achieve their goals.
patent sinew
That makes sense.
I've only ever witnessed people get upset with the term here though
Just like with the "bug" in the game.
mossy zinc
People might simply not be comfortable speaking up in other communities depending on the culture there.
patent sinew
True. Or people dont mind using their crutches.
Either way, sorry that you guys got offended.
mossy zinc
I didn't personally get offended. People called my Malphon build "crutch" until I got the high heat WR for Malphon with the same build, then they tried it and quickly found out they couldn't make it work as well as I did because they lacked practice and experience with the build.
devout quiver
owo
patent sinew
Lol I dont think I said anything bad
devout quiver
I'm not really offended either lol.
I just hate elitist mentalities
mossy zinc
The SGG server succeeds once again in resolving a disagreement peacefully and respectfully.
patent sinew
But yeah, in that case, those guys were just being mean. I was simply saying how the term would apply in Hades and giving examples of crutch scenarios.
If I can't dodge without the use of Divine Dash, then it's a crutch for me. And so forth. This game in particular probably has no DEFINITIVE crutch, but individually for sure. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes. But I can definitely see how that experience made you not like the term.
gaunt fiber
You're right about that, divine dash helps avoiding damage with less efforts/knowledge of the game
But that's just it
mossy zinc
I mostly just rolled my eyes when they called it a crutch lol.
gaunt fiber
Yeah Appa it's divine dash
patent sinew
Like it's one thing to berate a player for a "crutch". But if you cant even replicate it, that's just sad. Makes you look like a fool
gaunt fiber
It's just that without it, timings are a bit more precise on some attacks
Nothing to brag about tho lmao
devout quiver
just get good a dodging then idk
devout quiver
😱
mossy zinc
It wasn't meant as "this is why I don't like the term" exposition, anyway. Just simply an anecdote for how using that language can close your mind to certain strategies.
devout quiver
I just don't like seeing a term like "crutch" thrown around so casually 🤷♂️
But either way
gaunt fiber
Divine dash being a crutch is an old meme
cinder cave
my crutch is divine dash, epic greatest reflex and divine protection in the same build
sue me
devout quiver
Heroic Reflexes Gilgamesh 
nocturne stag
^ good strat
solemn pulsar
Divine dash being a crutch is an old meme
Idk
As someone with over 10 40 heat runs under my belt
gaunt fiber
gaunt fiber
The "there is no such thing as free heat" concept in shambles
solemn pulsar
It’s the only pact that has positive synergy with the other pacts
Since high heat survival rooms are hfil
And td1 disables them
mossy zinc
Since high heat survival rooms are hfil
That's the premise of the game.
solemn pulsar
Sorry for my bad language I have edited
mossy zinc
bronze viper
PL is a crutch.
mossy zinc
Rama is a crutch for llamas, but only for llamas. If you're not a llama, it's not a crutch.
devout quiver
I remember the days when TD1 could kill me
hehe
now it feels like TD1 should be called "Deadlines, but for next Tuesday"
bronze viper
Rama would make a terrible crutch. Bows bend if you put your weight on them.
mossy zinc
Rama would make a terrible crutch. Bows bend if you put your weight on them.
You'd know about that, Rama Llama. 
amber jetty
Rama would make a terrible crutch. Bows bend if you put your weight on them.
Idk rama looks pretty sturdy
jaunty falcon
Deadly strike, heartbreak flourish, divine/passion/hunter dash and heart rend (aphro/arti duo)
And double edge
jaunty falcon
Both work very well
lilac minnow
is it better to get aphro attack arte special or other way around ?
unique zephyr
They both have different advantages and disadvantages
jaunty falcon
Arti attack will benefit much more from chaos buffs
Or global damage in general
Aphro has some great duos such as smoldering air
unique zephyr
aphro attack has better pom scaling too
jaunty falcon
And rarity
gaunt fiber
More crit rate is also better for heart rend
Deadly strike is superior on nemesis builds
HR that is
unique zephyr
Weak reducing damage taken is also a thing
I know it's best to not get hit at all but it's still something to consider
mossy zinc
guys whats the strat with nemesis sword on 32 heat
There's no one strat. There are plenty of viable builds. I daresay the easiest is starting Heartbreak Strike for high % damage, Weak, and easy access to Life Affirmation, and then go for the Owl Pendant in Asphodel for Divine Dash + DDs after that.
Either way, if you're doing a crit build, you'll want to take Gods' Pride and look for as many Chaos Gates you can find to try to get Lunge or Strike for more damage.
narrow carbon
Here’s my Zag Sword with ME (10:54 IGT) https://www.speedrun.com/hades/run/zqvr0w9m
mossy zinc
24m 53s? Oh, that's RTA, isn't it.
narrow carbon
Yeah, haha, I edited after seeing the preview
mossy zinc
This is kind of the idea for a crit build.
Deadly Strike + Heartbreak Flourish or vice versa doesn't actually matter too much. Deadly Strike would let you crit more, but Heartbreak Strike procs Heart Rend more and applies Weak more for survivability.
narrow carbon
The crit build is more consistent, and you don’t need to worry about whether Doom is enough to kill a foe or whether you need to swing again
mossy zinc
I actually don't know if it's more consistent. Crit builds don't scale with anything but Chaos boons and Heart Rend, really.
But even if you get Heart Rend, if you don't also get Chaos boons, you're just not gonna have good damage.
But Weak is always good and increases the value of a lot of Lord Hermes boons a lot.
narrow carbon
I mean the build is easier to achieve. Not sure about consistency for clears
mossy zinc
I think an ME build without ME might have better DPS than a crit build without Chaos. Not sure.
narrow carbon
Right, if including Chaos I guess it’s comparable effort to put the build together
mossy zinc
Second Wind moves from like A-B tier to S+ tier if you have Weak and Smoldering Air, which actually happens very often if you start Heartbreak Strike. Hyper Sprint has even more value than normal because you get Weak + Sturdy for so much eHP. Greater Evasion also gets way better. I don't even think it's a worthwhile pick over most other options if you don't have another form of Weak or Dodge, but it's always a good pick if you have Weak.
I also actually like Different League and Broken Resolve over Sweet Surrender, recently.
You just get so much survivability from that on Nemesis.
And Life Affirmation in Tartarus, of course, can carry the whole run.
Also, bonus HP from Master Chaos gets even more value if you have Weak etc.
So that's some of the things you get from start that aren't DPS. While Owl Pendant start gives you immediate access to Deflect and DDs.
But I usually don't like fishing for DDs before Asphodel because that means you go into Furies with low HP, most likely.
And Blood-Filled Vial for Curse of Agony is probably the best start for DPS... but there's also a chance that you don't get anything good to start with because the only core you want from him really is Attack.
Owl Pendant and are way more flexible.
You ever feel like "why m I writing all of this, nobody's reading it."
left prism
We read in silence 
amber jetty
Always good to lurk through the strats
elfin rock
i do lurk most of the time
mossy zinc
Ty ty.
bronze rapids
Would you like to see my collection of screenshots of stuff you wrote 
mossy zinc
It's a bit weird when you write about strategies for half an hour, and there's zero feedback from anybody.
You have a collection of screenshots of stuff I wrote?
bronze rapids
yeah
mossy zinc
I feel honored. Thanks for telling me that.
pseudo kernel
You ever feel like "why m I writing all of this, nobody's reading it." <:dusa:52...
I read it
amber jetty
Also gonna use the feedback you gave me for Gilgamesh when I get home, was useful
narrow carbon
I’m here, I had to break for lunch 🙂 eHP from Aphro is great for bosses, and it contributes to DPS since you can worry less about evading attacks
mossy zinc
Gilgamesh took me quite a bit to be somewhat comfortable with. It's an odd aspect to build at first.
narrow carbon
I have screenshots, too, like Nyaanyaa’s Demeter Aspect Guide 
ripe ermine
Your Demeter aspect guide changed my life with the fists. Had no idea about the dash-strike-special combo.
waxen relic
Dang. Kinda motivating to try and do some loose guide collection after all.
subtle cypress
why does it matter
the dash upper does worse damage than the normal upper
thats just a more technical thing thats harder to execute
and has 1 free extra hit from the first strike
in exchange for being slower than just a dash strike
maybe if your attack tag can inflict doom or jolted thats a little optimization
but what makes it life changing
jaunty falcon
Giga cutter adds 5 hits
Dash upper does 40 damage. 40×6=240.
Normal upper does 30 damage twice. 30×7=210
And explosive upper makes the dash upper do even more damage
quartz mantle
I think it’s mainly for explosive upper and ME without dash
jaunty falcon
And the uncharged dash upper has less animation time than the standing upper, I think
subtle cypress
guess its just slightly more damage because you get the free dashstrike first
or actually if youre using priv stat thats a huge deal
since its a free double curse
jaunty falcon
Priv status is 15% damage over FF, and it's not even all the time
quartz mantle
I think the important part is that you’re adding the dash special to your regular attack > dash attack combat cycle
subtle cypress
i think priv is pretty overrated yeah
quartz mantle
And it flows a lot better than the standing special
subtle cypress
late game players like to frame it as being a much much better option
quartz mantle
Beo passion flare snow burst
subtle cypress
i mean ive heard lots of hades youtubers say stuff like "you have 2 curses active most of the time anyways"
on the mirror breakdown vids i watched
doesnt sound right to me
quartz mantle
I mean it depends on your build, if you’re going for something like Curse of Longing it’s pretty solid
nocturne stag
Really depends what boons you get
jaunty falcon
It's honestly not that big of a deal. But I'd rather have 25% damage all of the time
subtle cypress
yep
quartz mantle
But most of the time free 25% global damage increase by Asphodel is better
jaunty falcon
Although the clink from Priv status is quite satisfying
nocturne stag
If you get like aphro dash and Dio attack you'll have 2 curses active most of the tine
quartz mantle
Priv status shines if you can get your build together in tart cause at that point FF bonus damage is like 10-15 at mlst
subtle cypress
If you get like aphro dash and Dio attack you'll have 2 curses active most of th...
dio doesnt benefit much from 40% attack though
quartz mantle
But that doesn’t happen very often
subtle cypress
so youd need like fist special too
quartz mantle
Yea it does what
nocturne stag
But that doesn’t happen very often
Just an example I picked at random fmch
subtle cypress
the main damage comes from the flat poison does it not
quartz mantle
Extra hangover damage is pretty nuts
static plover
This is all based on the assumption you have 5 boons from differant olympians by asphodel (which you can't reasonably rely upon having)
subtle cypress
priv effects flats?
subtle cypress
i mean as long as you have them by halfway through elyisum youre fine
jaunty falcon
Global damage is pretty much the best thing for hangover, aside from poms and duos
subtle cypress
unless its like heat 25+
quartz mantle
Unless you’re running Olympian Favor for whatever reason you’re more than likely to see at least 3 gods in Tart and then Hermès likes to show up early in Asphodel
jaunty falcon
priv effects flats?
It affects everything apart from summons and traps
quartz mantle
It’s global damage for you
jaunty falcon
And maybe wall slams, idk
subtle cypress
didnt expect status debuffs though
quartz mantle
Global is global
subtle cypress
doesnt mean much. its pretty arbitrary whether an enemies debuffs are counted as damage from you or not
i think its pretty rare in games for % bonuses to your character to effect status ailments on enemies
but thats very cool
next acorn
Priv is good for when you start playing and don’t know how to make builds so you just throw boons together that end up having two cursed
subtle cypress
imo its the opposite around
jaunty falcon
Here's my take. Privileged status is bad when it forces you to take sub-par boons to get the bonus. So for passion flare snow burst, those are actually the best boons for Beowulf anyway, so there's no downside to PS
subtle cypress
priv is good when you know what youre doing and choose 2 curses on purpose
next acorn
But if you have a build like ZAP your not really procing it
Unless you get jolted rupture ig
jaunty falcon
Yeah you need both jolted and shoals, the latter isn't really necessary
quartz mantle
Regardless I still think the only reasonable time to use Priv Status over FF is Passion Flare Snow Burst Beo or Curse of Longing
Or just cause you want to
I mean it is a video game after all
jaunty falcon
Game is fun.
next acorn
Does it work with ME if you have exposed
shy plinth
I'd say the fairly consensus direction for most competitive outlets is FF
jaunty falcon
Idk, with ME you shred everything anyway
shy plinth
But not everyone is pushing competitive
subtle cypress
FF would be super fun if there wasnt a 4 god limit and you could have as large a pool as you want
it would make each new god really exciting
jaunty falcon
You can in some cases
jaunty falcon
It's very easy to get 7 + Hermes in your pool, getting all 9 is hard tho
quartz mantle
You also sometimes get the interaction of
4th god in midshop with another as the next door reward
That gets you a 5 god pool in Tart
Then you force a new god in each biome and then you get all 9
subtle cypress
nice +15% damage
not as good as just running butterfly from the start
and a diluted pool is bad in other ways
shy plinth
The real value of ff at high heat is the instant damage boost in tart
quartz mantle
I’m more concerned about never being able to get a specific boon ever because there are 8 gods in my pool
But the real strat is to get as many duos as possible
subtle cypress
i wish god keep sakes had an appearance rate bonus
on zeus builds you really really wanna see 5+ zeus
jaunty falcon
I've always wondered about using the codex mod to get every single boon in the game and try and speedrun it
See how low I could go
quartz mantle
Well some are incompatible but barring that it could be interesting
next acorn
How does that work with cores
jaunty falcon
Yeah all the cast duos would just be useless
shy plinth
How good is your computer
jaunty falcon
How does that work with cores
Probably just use ZAP
subtle cypress
is that zeus rail
next acorn
Would ME be better if you have it from the start?
jaunty falcon
Yep, Zeus attack Artemis special Poseidon dash
jaunty falcon
Would ME be better if you have it from the start?
Yeah probably, although I think if you had every boon, the only thing stopping you would be boss invul phases and enemy/room luck
subtle cypress
pom blossom would be fun with every boon
quartz mantle
Either ME or Trippy Beo with Mirage
If you’re allowed to get chaos boons
Although Eris with Splitting start might just be faster
shy plinth
Also smoldering billow with poseidon call rip current maybe?
Surf your way through rooms
jaunty falcon
Lol that would be funny to watch
quartz mantle
With Proud Bearing you could only use Call lmao
jaunty falcon
I have found rip current precisely once
subtle cypress
chaos lunge effects fist special?
solemn pulsar
chaos lunge effects fist special?
dash specials (dash upper on fists and dashing flight hammer on shield)
GET chaos special buffs
DO NOT take damage from chaos special curses
DO get chaos dash strike buffs
DO NOT take damage from chaos attack curses
GET hunter dash buffs
ripe ermine
Circling back to this, I suggest trying it out! You’re not solely dash-strike-uppering. I mean you’re still wailing out attacks plenty, especially to stun-lock groups and build the Giga for tanky things, but depending on boons and hammers, dash-strike-upper is very fast and one-two shots a surprising amount of Tartarus and Asphodel. It’s super for Ares attack, as you guessed, or for triggering Merciful End if you don’t have Divine Dash yet.
ripe ermine
but what makes it life changing
☝️ was trying to reply to this
It’s just a nice thing to have in your tool belt
mossy zinc
Adding to all the very good points that have already been brought up, your Dash-Attack starts up faster than your Dash-Upper, meaning you can more quickly stagger an enemy before doing a Dash-Upper if you do that combo than if you did only a Dash-Upper.
Special boons also have excellent scaling, much better than Attack boons.
If you have Breaching Cross, your Dash-Attack can strip them of armor before your Dash-Upper finishes them off.