also block any duos or legendaries if exist
#h1-high-heat-strategies
eager vortex
eager vortex
solar maple
Really though, its completely random
I got heart rend arty attack with ap2 the other day
halcyon flame
i refuse to believe that it's random if ap1 immediately crossed out epic drunken flourish when i decided to try it on chaos 32 heat
solar maple
Was then forced into an attack replace 2 chambers later
Amir's laugh echoes through my skull
eager vortex
there are some higher powers at work that's 4 sure
solar maple
If you ever have any specific code questions, feel free to ask me
Digging through the files is pretty fun, and I find some neat stuff while looking for other things
hearty onyx
Sometimes AP1 is more annoying
You see the boon you absolutely need to get your build together and it's crossed off
gaunt fiber
At least you don't have hopes with AP2
spice lava
AP2 vs AP1 -> Expect nothing and be disappointed vs Expect something and be disappointed
eager vortex
At least you don't have hopes with AP2
I agree
ap2 hurts less because you know you aren't getting anything anyway
spice lava
AP2 is the true enemy while AP1 is a fake friend
The betrayal is different
"AP1, whyyy"
"Oh I knew you would do that to me AP2"
I think the truth is AP1 and AP2 are the same person
We never saw both of them on the same run, riight? 
eager vortex
dw ez
mossy zinc
Malphon is a lot easier than Stygius.
eager vortex
made some changes to my builds sheet : https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/725021448426749993/831545088680525826
pseudo kernel
made some changes to my builds sheet : https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434...
for dem fist i would probably go with zeus attack and aphro dash, since you wanna dash attack to reset the combo
everything else is good
halcyon flame
lightning strike + deadly strike for dps and then pash dash for smoldering + heart rend
you goddamn genius
gaunt fiber
Your spear looks super cool
eager vortex
unlike my td3
pseudo kernel
Your spear looks super cool
the spear is called gone you
gaunt fiber
Embrace RI2
pseudo kernel
have you heard of speed running?
eager vortex
mossy zinc
This thread has been marked solved. Please don't add any more posts.
quartz mantle
I mean the less you're playing the less chances you have to make mistakes
gaunt fiber
iirc you just need a 2sack to get GY50 wr
quartz mantle
speedrunning is the answer
eager vortex
yea good luck speedrunning with dc2 js3 cp1
gaunt fiber
No DC RI2 :)
gaunt fiber
Yeah I kinda know that
quartz mantle
Embrace the EM4 stonks
mossy zinc
Shield is not a weapon.
bright mango
My next 50 is going to be chiron
eager vortex
can you guess what I'm gonna say ???
bright mango
No sleep
quartz mantle
Play Chiron instead?
eager vortex
ME gy
mossy zinc
It's either Guan Yu or Guan Me. You can't have both.
pseudo kernel
hilarious
mossy zinc
Thank you. 💕 
eager vortex
can I beat furies under 6 seconds ???
pseudo kernel
im gonna leave this chat before i die of cringe
eager vortex
can I beat furies under 6 seconds ???
nope
mossy zinc
Pretty sure phasing alone takes longer than that.
mossy zinc
Rama is broken.
honest kernel
ramen
eager vortex
rama is not a very nice weapon
sudden cargo
Lili's done the math before, the phases take 6.6s for Meg and alecto, tis has more hp and her transitions take 7.4s total. So if you're phasing instantly and well you might get a ~7s furies fight
mossy zinc
Well, I guess counting seconds is math, too.
waxen relic
just attack multiple times in together 0.4 seconds?
sudden cargo
Really the slow bit is going to be the first hit with Rama, the other phases you can have a powershot ready immediately so long as alecto doesn't insist on an instant interrupt
waxen relic
what i mostly meant: landing the attacks multiple times in the first 0.1second window
sudden cargo
I wouldn't expect exactly 7 seconds, or less than, but around about 7 seconds is v doable
If you miss that instant window they go wandering off anyway or attack you
7.5-8.5s then :p
mossy zinc
lol Rama Dash-Strike Power Shot is 850~1000 ms.
sudden cargo
Yeah you charge it up during the invuln phase
mossy zinc
Point is your first Attack is already longer than 0.4.
eager vortex
got to dad on em4 50 gy
but can't do it lol
I'll try em3
but then I gotta do ri2 ...
okay gy 50 is impossible 4 me confirmed
moving on
distant cradle
Questiom about 32 heat
Rn I'm using beo for it
And dusa instead of meg
It worked well in alecto
But is dusa any good?
Like wut does she do
Just slows enemies?
halcyon flame
dusa is honestly... the least "useful" of the companions
it's either antos or meg, usually meg
halcyon flame
dusa is bad for bosses lol
halcyon flame
she spits stone balls that deal 70 damage and petrify enemies
alecto staying still more is just alecto doing her thing
dusa can't petrify bosses
distant cradle
Ah well
Lol I've gotten and purger two hermes wealth boons
For transitions
Wut keepsake should I run for elysium
Already did poseidon and aphro for first two
celest grail
Wut keepsake should I run for elysium
acorn or tooth
or any god that you might want
quartz mantle
Tooth is solid if you're generally scared of Elysium
which is valid
Then you can switch to Acorn for Styx
distant cradle
Lol as soon as u said asterius I got his mini boss
solar maple
I have used dusa for only 1 strategy
in my no attack/dash/cast/special runs, for impossible normal rooms
solemn pulsar
i used dusa when I was trying to do 64 heat Charon with hestia
since 64 heat tartarus rooms with hestia are impossible without help
i got to midshop pretty consistently
solar maple
yeah ^^ dusa is for normal rooms, but generally those aren't that tough, other than in really weird circumstances
solar maple
I also used dusa for my max heat attempts for the april challenge
it helped a ton with my nem run, let me get all the way to the furies
halcyon flame
my only goal is get to asphodel so using all 5 summons in tart should be a valid strategy for once
solar maple
yeah that's what I did
distant cradle
Hey
Has anyone used rama in high heat?
It seemed to do somewhat good on 32 heat but I didn't get far
tardy path
I'm very sure we have a high heat Rama user in here. Sorry for the @ but was that you @daring hedge ?
celest grail
Rama has done the highest unseeded heat
So its a pretty good high heat weapon
60 heat, is the highest unseeded heat
We have plenty of decent rama players, but tail is the best id say yeah
@distant cradle its hard to learn rama id say. You need to know the power shot timings, and when to just cancel your shot to dodge the enemy attack
celest grail
Because at high heat, with FO2 and HL5, enemies can hit you very quickly for a lot of dmg in the time that you're charging your shot
distant cradle
Tru
bright mango
Above 60+, rama falls off
Main two things while learning with rama are:
A) Knowing where you position yourself to charge up your shot
B) when to let go if you’re about to get hit
If anyone has more to add plz do
eternal hare
not wasting time using special more often than you need to and getting a good internal timer for both special application and power shots, I'd say
bright mango
Yeah I don’t know too much of the intricacies of the weapon
eternal hare
the two things you said already are definitely extremely important and encompasses most of it, I think
daring hedge
I'm very sure we have a high heat Rama user in here. Sorry for the @ but was tha...
sorry for the late response but yeah that's me
mossy zinc
Above 60+, rama falls off
Lmao wut.
quasi zodiac
Guys hello! I've been checking the 32 heat guide pinned in comments and I've heard many statements like X mirror upgrade is better, X aspect is bad and that's some information that I've been meaning to find but struggled to. I've only seen kind of outdated guides on the subjects, is there a place where I can see some recent data or good discussions about how boons, aspects, etc perform? Sorry in advance if it was easy to find and I just missed it :(
unique zephyr
The main mirror upgrade that’s unambiguously better but not immediately obvious is dark foresight over Olympian favor
mossy zinc
You can make practically anything work at 32 Heat, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just play your favorite aspect or whichever you think you do best with and get some 32 Heat runs in for practice. 
quasi zodiac
I still use all the aspects for fun, but really want to know some raw data on everything
unique zephyr
The best aspect for 32 heat is the one you’re most comfortable with
quasi zodiac
I'm always wondering how people at 50 heat deal more damage than me with less boons 🤣
mossy zinc
There's the high heat leader that's pinned, which has a weapon index, though keep in mind not everyone submits their runs to that, and the people who do don't necessarily submit all of their runs.
There's also the leaderboard on speedrun.com.
unique zephyr
I haven’t gotten above 40 heat yet so I have had no reason to submit lol
devout quiver
I'm always wondering how people at 50 heat deal more damage than me with less bo...
if you have a yellow name on this discord, you get a +50% damage buff when you start a new run.
And if your name is Tailesque you get an additional 50% when using Hades or Rama
mossy zinc
The leaderboard starts at 32. You don't need any particular reason to submit anything, it's all up to you.
unique zephyr
Also, shackle in Tartarus
True, I guess it’s also recording runs is a hassle since all of mine are segmented
Because health issues and all
That and I may forget to show a death
mossy zinc
if you have a yellow name on this discord, you get a +50% damage buff when you s...
Tailesque actually always deals exactly your damage +1.
quasi zodiac
Yeah, I've seen many videos from the leaderboard, quite enjoy them, but there's not really any explanation on them 👀 I've used builds with more boons and dealt less damage and I'm obviously doing something wrong, that's why I've wanted to research a bit, like optimal ways to use each aspects to blow the damage out of proportion
unique zephyr
I like Aphrodite or Artemis for high base damage weapons
Zeus for fast weapons
Winning is less about good builds and more about execution
See: Retrash
quasi zodiac
I guess I'll watch some Hestia videos at high heat, I did a suposedly great build with it and it SUCKED 
unique zephyr
And AP2 + RI in 50+ heat
quasi zodiac
Well, I sucked probably
mossy zinc
Speedrun Starter Kit.
https://youtu.be/z3Mmoo4oTKU
https://www.speedrun.com/hades/guides
https://www.hades-guides.ovh/index.php/generic-information/
unique zephyr
Also, family favorite boosts damage, if you’re using Privileged Status you’re often missing out on damage
mossy zinc
If you want to learn how to optimize your DPS, that's a good start.
unique zephyr
Since even if you can proc PS you don’t have it on all the time
quasi zodiac
Also, family favorite boosts damage, if you’re using Privileged Status you’re of...
Wooow, ok this is a new one for me, it's a high heat thing right?
I pretty much have PS active all the time
devout quiver
Just play exclusively LT chiron, then you get to always use PS
mossy zinc
That's not a high heat thing. It's the standard for speedruns, too.
unique zephyr
Wooow, ok this is a new one for me, it's a high heat thing right?
PS is more for fun
FF is very reliable
mossy zinc
High heat isn't exactly about optimal DPS. DPS is just a means to an end, and the end is just getting the win somehow by whatever means necessary.
unique zephyr
It’s a passive 20-25% damage boost
quasi zodiac
Obviously depends on the weapon, but PS seems super easy to trigger for me, and it's 20% more damage. Is it not?
devout quiver
15%
quasi zodiac
Oh right forgot hermes
unique zephyr
Also it’s only on when the symbol is there, statuses have to be reapplied
And it hampers your build
Since you have to build around PS or you get +0%
quasi zodiac
🤔 I guess I'm so used to building around PS that I haven't noticed
unique zephyr
Keep in mind jolted and razor shoals are still very good even without PS
quasi zodiac
Alternating attack and special/cast/dash for permanent PS made me never feel like I was going out of the way to proc PS
devout quiver
Not always, there's builds where PS can fit in without 'distracting' the build
less common, ofc
unique zephyr
With FF you get the 20% damage boost passively mid Tartarus and it’s up to 25% in asphodel
quasi zodiac
Well, one thing I for sure did horribly with the hestia build I tried was not switching to FF, since it focused so much on the bonus damage to attack I really had to go out of my way for PS
unique zephyr
Hestia needs a good attack boon, that’s really it
quasi zodiac
And I'm sure that FF is as you say, the better option for consistency
I guess I just never felt PS was inconsistent
unique zephyr
Hestia wants Aphrodite or Artemis on attack, Aphrodite is safer because of weak
quasi zodiac
Yeah, I had artemis on attack but wasn't really oneshotting enemies starting asphodel
Only level 4 hestia tho
unique zephyr
The 50 extra damage from 4 to 5 makes a huge difference
I don’t recommend doing high heat with non maxed aspects
quasi zodiac
Yeah, I didn't do high heat for that same reason :P
https://prnt.sc/11hr5v8 this was the pitiful hestia attempt
devout quiver
winning is winning
quasi zodiac
Yeah, managed to do it with a little camping
Thanks for the insight and the speedrunning guide, I'll check it in a bit!
unique zephyr
https://prnt.sc/11hr5v8 this was the pitiful hestia attempt
This is 6 heat did you mean to post a different victory screen or am I misunderstanding the convo
quasi zodiac
No, I was just posting the hestia run I talked about that I did where I wasn't oneshotting enemies, sorry if it was against the rules, I will delete it if so. I've been looking just at the damage output aspect and what gets me the biggest number, so not really doing high head rn.
halcyon flame
does hermes count for ff?
quasi zodiac
I think so, Chaos is the one who doesn't count
mossy zinc
Hestia needs a good attack boon, that’s really it
If you want DPS, that's not it.
halcyon flame
tidal dash and special boons are also necessary
particularly tidal dash because it's your best way of dealing with small trash enemies like numbskulls
shy plinth
That build screenshot is a good example of how PS can be a trap
mossy zinc
https://prnt.sc/11hr5v8 this was the pitiful hestia attempt
Only issue with that build is taking Blade Dash over Tidal Dash.
shy plinth
25% more damage on that first attack without needing to be close to enemies is big
mossy zinc
And you have no Attack or Dash-Strike damage from Master Chaos. You really want to roll for that.
quasi zodiac
Yeah, pretty much never got offered tidal dash before not having anything else to get from Ares than his blade dash. The chaos statement is a really good point, I didn't roll for atk bonus
mossy zinc
But that build you had is good enough for 50+ Heat.
shy plinth
It's got some nice stuff going on
halcyon flame
ruthless also sucks for hestia
having one dash is generally worse for keeping a distance and since you're keeping a distance you won't be getting a lot of close calls for getting hit
quasi zodiac
I'm looking at the guide pinned and he's moving and reloading in a way I couldn't, I guess that's the main factor that made me feel like I was doing little damage, gotta practice the reload mechanics
mossy zinc
It's also good enough for sub 10.
quasi zodiac
That's a fair point on ruthless
mossy zinc
Most competitive players rebind Reload to something like LB/L1 on pad.
quasi zodiac
Even when being used to proc close calls, I won't get many when being far away
halcyon flame
i keep wondering how do people get sub 8s on hestia and remember i'm using default keybinds 😔
and also that i'm bad at the game
mossy zinc
ruthless also sucks for hestia
Don't agree with that. Hestia is among the best aspects for single-dash runs.
quasi zodiac
Yeah I'm using default keybinds too, I really didn't feel the struggle of reloading with R3 until today
mossy zinc
I'd take Greater Reflex over Ruthless, but "sucks" isn't quite right.
You can press Special, Cast, or Dash at the same time you press Reload.
I pretty much always do that.
quasi zodiac
You can press Special, Cast, or Dash at the same time you press Reload.
Talk about a vital mechanic I did not know
I was alternating attack, dash, reload, dash, repeat
mossy zinc
If you rotate Reload > Attack, you can use your Special any second time you reload.
halcyon flame
i should probably actually try to keep a distance when using hestia
mossy zinc
and also that i'm bad at the game <:dusa:522248771409543188>
How could you forget?
halcyon flame
i tend to tidal dash into enemies before actually shooting them and that makes me lose out on fiery presence
halcyon flame
How could you forget? <:dusa:522248771409543188>
i never forget. just like i can't forget that i am horrible at using nemesis because i still got sub 11 with a sub 5 build on nem ✨
almost got sub 10**
maybe more like sub 6 but still
not to mention i got a 2 sack 🧑🦽
unique zephyr
If you want DPS, that's not it.
Genuinely curious, what else is needed besides a good special?
halcyon flame
✨ 💦 broseidon dash 💧 💦 ✨
mossy zinc
@unique zephyr a good Attack and Special, Attack or Dash-Strike from Master Chaos, and a good Dash.
You can get away at high heat with just Shackle, but there's a whole lot more potential there.
unique zephyr
Speaking of good dashes, I need to learn how not to rely on Athena dash. I have won 32 heat without crutch dash but not 40
mossy zinc
There's a difference between good enough DPS and good DPS. Shackle on Hestia gives you good enough DPS.
spice lava
Crepes was still wearing shackle when he cleared 56 heat, the Hades fight wasn't comfortable but yeah it was good enough DPS
And indeed Hestia is one those aspects that reveal how absurd it looks to have only one thumb to manage dash/attack or special or cast/reload with default settings
edgy arrow
kbm ftw
spice lava
Not enough space for my mouse on the desk, environment made me pick controller 👀
And that's also the main reason why I don't play FPS that much on PC 👀
halcyon flame
zag rail down, now it's just the fists aspects for 32 heat
celest grail
@halcyon flame id recommend you to try out drunken strike on fists btw
ofc ZAP is good, but drunken strike helped me get my fists 32 heat
you can just punch an enemy a few times and then run away
edgy arrow
Not enough space for my mouse on the desk, environment made me pick controller �...
man... and i thought i didn’t have much space
fair tho
lol so many folks play FPS games with controllers and idk how that works at all
mossy zinc
you can just punch an enemy a few times and then run away
Just take Curse of Agony for that.
hoary pasture
mossy zinc
You should retrieve those bloodstones.
eager vortex
they should increase the dash attack range of the louts
it's not enough
add some more zeros
spice lava
@edgy arrow clearing 50 heat isn't a problem that much, real trouble starts when you start to grind higher heat or more clears 😭
It's a trap!
halcyon flame
i just remembered i haven't done zag spear for 32 yet
should be easy as long as i get flurry jab
mossy zinc
You shouldn't have any problem either way.
halcyon flame
going well, c4 flurry jab
honest kernel
ggs
mossy zinc
AP2 wants you to git gud with Thunder Dash.
eager vortex
the more I play the more I seem to think alike with you guys
experience !
yeah zeus should be fine I think
hearty onyx
Man, Rip Current +Smoldering Air is insane
I didn't think the "pull foes in" part had that much of a range or speed
hearty onyx
I just assumed that me saying rip current would mean I had poseidon
eager vortex
oh I thought you had zeus call
my bad
when someone says smoldering air I automatically think zeus call
hearty onyx
It works with a lot of calls
true fable
rip current smoldering air is insane
lol
rip current is just insane
like
its a call only t2
hearty onyx
It only requires 5 different boons
hearty onyx
I'm going to try Rip current and Smoldering Air again sometime
hearty onyx
Imagine if Rip current's effect applied to all your knockback boons
halcyon flame
how would that work?
halcyon flame
so just knockback but backwards?
solar maple
imagine zeus special just sucking in a mob of enemies
halcyon flame
imagine zeus special just sucking in a mob of enemies
engulfing vortex
hearty onyx
It could've been a good idea for a poseidon legendary
Also, it's a bit weird that knockback doesn't work Very well on bosses but Rip Current does
kindred panther
rip current doesn't work on bosses, does it? I've seen it work on the minions around Hades but not Hades himself...
kindred panther
huh maybe I've just never noticed
eager vortex
oh great ran out of time at aste
I suck at dis game now
going back to 0 heat
to praktis
I'm trying to be decent at
every single aspect lol
mossy zinc
Any heat speedruns are good practice for that.
eager vortex
I think I need to stop trying to do that
nobody is good at every aspect right
been repating zeus and rama nonstop
I don't see improvement
halcyon flame
i was awful at hera then i got 11:05 with it
mossy zinc
Everyone will have some weaknesses, but I do decent with aspects I've played five times. Fundamentals matter a lot.
halcyon flame
not to say i'm remotely decent at using it now but 11:05 with an aspect you're terrible at may as well be improvement
eager vortex
I've done both rama and zeus at 40 heat
I am failing at 45-50
mostly because of td
I'd say 60% td, 40% me being bad at the aspects
hmm
solar maple
if you were good at the aspects td wouldn't be a problem :p
eager vortex
I'ma get
this mod that removes dad speaking to you in the beginning of runs
he's getting really annoying now
eager vortex
if you were good at the aspects td wouldn't be a problem :p
I guess so lol
it's okay tho
as ledgerdamayn said yday
there's only 1 person who's actually good with this aspect so
halcyon flame
this mod that removes dad speaking to you in the beginning of runs
does having "shut up old man" installed mean you can't submit runs or is it fine?
mossy zinc
Mods that have no effect on gameplay are legal for the high heat leaderboard.
eager vortex
does having "shut up old man" installed mean you can't submit runs or is it fine...
it's fine, it has basically no effect on your runs, just clears up an annoyance
gaunt fiber
this mod that removes dad speaking to you in the beginning of runs
wow that's a blessing
mossy zinc
It's not legal on the speedrun leaderboards because it affects your RTA, obviously.
But RTA is not a relevant factor on the high heat leaderboard.
solar maple
no mods are currently allowed on src other than the colorblind mod iirc
even if they are not beneficial
mossy zinc
Yeah.
halcyon flame
It's not legal on the speedrun leaderboards because it affects your RTA, obvious...
what if it's in an igt category?
eager vortex
well iunno about src leaderboard, I don't submit runs there cuz of extremely strict rules like that anyway
solar maple
see my comment spammy
eager vortex
you can abuse esc but can't use shut up dad mod smh
mossy zinc
They only allow specific mods, we allow any mods that don't affect gameplay.
celest grail
theyre not allowed to keep the game's speedrunning accessible for everyone
celest grail
modded category poggers
eager vortex
yes, remove every single free room and lets see who's legit fast
celest grail
dont think it'll apply to any heat, but still exciting for multi wep
eager vortex
talent wise
celest grail
yes, remove every single free room and lets see who's legit fast
ello is working on that, for races
room determinism
eager vortex
pretty good
celest grail
give both players the same room
i personally think it removes a bit of the fun from watching races, but eitherway, it is a good step ahead for the modding and speedrunning community
gaunt fiber
Especially if luck is your main skill
celest grail
lol
gaunt fiber
Oh really
eager vortex
is it ?
eager vortex
skills can be improved somehow
does that mean you can have higher luck by practicing ... luck ?
pseudo kernel
yeah
fickle heron
yes, watch poker players or hearthstone pro players (card players in general) they seem super lucky but they have become really good in calculating chances
eager vortex
that's not luck tho
bronze viper
Figuring out how to maximize the number of openings in which you can be lucky and also capitalizing on that luck are both huge skills. As WeirdBeard mentioned, it's huge in any card game.
eager vortex
it's math
solar maple
math is a skill, yes
eager vortex
ofc
solemn pulsar
Math is luck
eager vortex
bronze viper
E.g. not taking a 3rd god core that may open up a bad duo makes more of your runs "lucky". At the end of the day, the net chance of getting a duo in a run doesn't really change but you can change your odds through small decisions on the margin
solemn pulsar
all math is either right or wrong. that's a 50/50 shot
mossy zinc
Yeah. That's also my finding as a sciencess.
edgy arrow
all math is either right or wrong. that's a 50/50 shot
this is the most big brain thing i’ve ever heard in my life
you’re a genius
halcyon flame
let's just pretend that the chances of getting an epic boon vs a common boon is 50/50
rare boons do not exist
mossy zinc
Some math is both right and wrong.
solar maple
you may not like it, but it's true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic
halcyon flame
one-dash rama with fo2 sounds like a nightmare
bright mango
If you get good hermes luck, then it is definitely possible, but zeus is just more consistent
mossy zinc
Rama can handle one dash.
quartz mantle
I think I used to run one dash rama before I started doing 32 heat
bright mango
Rama can handle one dash.
are you sure about that
mossy zinc
Yes.
bright mango
For some really really really experienced players(tailesque) they could maybe get it, but it is mostly just gambling on hermes luck
mossy zinc
Maybe not if you're a frog.
solar maple
1 dash is vey rough when you have to dodge
bright mango
One dash at 61+ heat sounds misreable
bronze viper
Amongst all the non miserable things at 61
bright mango
I'm sure that if Tailesque keeps trying and eventually gets good hermes luck, it is definitely possible to do it, but without the extra dash, I frankly do not think its possible to clear 61+ heat with Rama
You need hermes dashes
mossy zinc
I mean aspect potential implies optimal play. If you say "aspect x falls off", you're saying it falls off even when played optimally. Because otherwise it's not the aspect that's holding players back.
mossy zinc
I've seen "x is not possible" so many times by now lol.
mossy zinc
solar maple
lol
halcyon flame
gilga good because 3 dashes
halcyon flame
max heat ruthless reflex
eager vortex
gilga is ez gaming
mossy zinc
Gilgamesh sucks.
bronze viper
The first furry
bright mango
Do eet
pseudo kernel
Gilgamesh sucks.
what is wrong with cat claws
bronze viper
I think they're technically wolf paws
pseudo kernel
shut up
halcyon flame
furry either way
eager vortex
gilga is best fists idk why you hating
pseudo kernel
yeah
quartz mantle
>max heat ruthless reflex
Ruthless Reflex transcends Routine Inspection
pseudo kernel
gilga is best fists idk why you hating
gilgamesh is the only aspect where you can take 150% extra damage
quartz mantle
Easy solution
bronze viper
Imagine all the call charge you can build then.
quartz mantle
Stop using the special
eager vortex
yea just ignore the special
quartz mantle
Oh wait true
pseudo kernel
yeah
quartz mantle
Boiling point is a must have on Gilga guys
pseudo kernel
that is why it is good
eager vortex
is it sad that I spent 5 hours just to do 45 zeus
from life standpoint I think it's sad
I could spend that 5 hours getting my "luck skill" higher
kekw
halcyon flame
do i actually just not use special on gilga
celest grail
maths
celest grail
do i actually just not use special on gilga
watch hadesprof play it LOL
halcyon flame
i'm like 3 aspects down
celest grail
He clears 50 heat gilga with basically maim only
bronze viper
i kinda have to do it on 32 heat
Splash Dash my guy.
celest grail
or do that, yeah
eager vortex
get me lol why even bother
bronze viper
At 32 you absolutely never have to press Gilgamesh buttons, just dash
eager vortex
get me and close your eyes
okay also I've found a new build for zeus shield too
get ares special, athena attack me
throw the shield and just keep dashing around the enemy
celest grail
thats a pretty common build yeah
eager vortex
shield will keep hitting the enemy while you're ...
bronze viper
N E W
celest grail
ME on every aspect is common LOL
bronze viper
Yeah even back in EA Zeus was speculated to be one of the optimal ME aspects
bronze viper
Nah it's fine, new to you is still valuable
celest grail
Baj still doesn't know if ME is better than zeus special on zeus shield, because he hasn't gotten a run with perfect room rng with ME
At any heat that is
bronze viper
Yeah ME is just so much less consistent with the yucky pacts on
celest grail
But the dmg that MEus can put out is insane
Yeah^^
Getting any duo on 45+ heat is inconsistent
bronze viper
Like you're already pushing it with RI0 AP1 CF2
celest grail
Except for unshakeable mettle, that will show up any time
halcyon flame
Splash Dash my guy.
i was seriously considering splash dash
bronze viper
I always seriously consider splash dash. For every aspect.
But especially Gilgamesh lmao
eager vortex
another thing I've learned today is you can't get smoldering air without actually having a call even if you have the required boons
that's also a bruh moment
bronze viper
The Codex is just wrong yeah
I thought that was the case in EA, but then when they put the Codex in I was like, "oh huh you can get it without a Call, maybe I'm just extremely unlucky"
Nope
eager vortex
very smexy build there pengy
celest grail
Why play the aspect when you can play rip current
bronze viper
I'm loving this 0 zeus double zeus duo build
quartz mantle
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/827701228975685653/ima...
What a great Gilgamesh build right there
bright mango
ikr
halcyon flame
i wonder if i could get away with js at 32 with splash dash gilga
eager vortex
you can
halcyon flame
you're killing everything using aoe
bronze viper
The classic Gilgamesh build https://imgur.com/a/09RPd91
quartz mantle
what in the
eager vortex
that looks like zeus shield build gone wrong
halcyon flame
thunder dash seems like it REALLY needs t2s to get going
too much of a high-roll for my taste
quartz mantle
Ledger what the hell
celest grail
Did you just get +3 dashes and go "eh i dont have a cast anyway, lets just pivot"
celest grail
Because it feels like that
bronze viper
Nah I rollled off Epic Flood Flare to get Tempest Flourish because I started Charged Flight out of spite :3
halcyon flame
wait that's
quartz mantle
That's a crime
halcyon flame
that's not even gilgamesh
quartz mantle
You're getting arrested
halcyon flame
what the hell
bronze viper
Then I got Zoos dash and that kept getting better so I stopped using special too lol
celest grail
LOL spammy
bronze viper
At least the Flourish was common
quartz mantle
The worst part is that you took CF2 with Beo
eager vortex
and encourages me to try out more cursed builds
mossy zinc
well, any build that clears 40 is a decent build
Guess I gotta do boonless mirrorless at 40 sometime, after all.
Shouldn't be too bad, come to think of it.
halcyon flame
boonless is indeed decent since it can clear 50
realistically boonless can clear max heat if you're skilled enough
solemn pulsar
realistically boonless can clear max heat if you're skilled enough
big doubt
halcyon flame
i thought up this cursed "Hades" build based on hades' abilities
i'd like to see someone clear 40 heat with that
solemn pulsar
boonless doesn't have the damage to clear max heat in 20 minutes
halcyon flame
boonless doesn't have the damage to clear max heat in 20 minutes
not with that attitude
solemn pulsar
lol
bronze viper
^
solemn pulsar
it just doesnt
solemn pulsar
what weapon
i'll tell you how long it would take to kill EM4 if he just stood there and never attacked
bronze viper
Idk, let's say Triple Point Blank Perfect Shot Rama with Shackle
halcyon flame
tailesque moment
solemn pulsar
how long does a dash strike power shot take to charge
bronze viper
.825 iirc
Plus whatever the dash time is
or is it 850ms-1000ms. That sounds more right
mossy zinc
850~1000.
bronze viper
Call it a second even for ez maths
solemn pulsar
what's a reasonable amount of time between shots
are we saying 1 power shot ever second?
bronze viper
Yeah
mossy zinc
Pretty sure that includes dash time.
solemn pulsar
aight
bronze viper
I think 1/sec is a good "ideal"
solemn pulsar
EM4 fight would take 40 seconds
if you could do 1 powershot per second
but you
cannot
bronze viper
Wow Rama is dumb
mossy zinc
You can buy items in boonless btw.
bronze viper
Wait WHAT
mossy zinc
Rama is dumb indeed lol.
solemn pulsar
i mean you gave it 3 perfect hammers
and shackle
and you're getting off 1 powershot per second
which you can't even do on FO0 non EM4 hades
bronze viper
Lol I've been meming boonless hitless runs. Didn't know you could buy items that's broken
mossy zinc
Items are not boons.
bronze viper
They go to the boon bar lol
solemn pulsar
anyway, point is, you need to land 40 triple shotgun power shots with PERFECT boonless rama to beat EM4
have fun with that with 1 dash
oh i didn't include shared suffering
bronze viper
WOW
solemn pulsar
fine only like 24
bronze viper
Even from like a... theoretical standpoint that's so silly
mossy zinc
Rama is broken.
solemn pulsar
is it?
mossy zinc
Okay, but what about Triple Point-Blank Power Shot Rama with 6x Jerky and 1x Jerky Select?
Yes.
mossy zinc
It's way broken for high heat.
bronze viper
I mean, finding the 1 second charge is literally like... all of the aspect's difficulty curve lol
mossy zinc
I clear high heat with it easily lol.
solemn pulsar
lol
mossy zinc
The damage for what it requires is stupid compared to what other aspects need.
bronze viper
I think Hestia and Zeus are kind of just better on average for high heat until you start getting to the upper bounds of heat
solemn pulsar
is it??? it kinda sucks without hammers
bronze viper
(at least for Hestia)
mossy zinc
It doesn't suck without hammers. What?
bronze viper
I mean it's pretty medium without hammers. It does have 4 tier 1+ hammers though
mossy zinc
Twin, Explosive, Perfect, Triple, and Point-Blank are all very good for damage.
solemn pulsar
yeah i know the hammers are great
solemn pulsar
is it broken at 32? 40? maybe
"high heat" is kinda vague
it's weird to say that it's broken when the learning curve is so high
mossy zinc
m not talking about 32 or 40. It makes any maxed boss fight but EM4 a joke with a hammer and a couple boons.
bronze viper
I think there are better aspects for 40. Quite a few of them. And I think Zeus and Hestia are better at 50. Zeus remains better at every heat but once you get to DC Hestia is outperformed?
solemn pulsar
what heat are you talking about then
mossy zinc
50+.
bright mango
Like if you know what you're doing with rama and stuff, everything just dies
bronze viper
The aspect has very clear weaknesses, one being that it doesn't scale remarkably hard off of boons. The other being the huge charge time
bright mango
Like its not even funny
bronze viper
Tbf you don't need boons when stuff dies if you have hammers
But yeah it's nice to have multiple high roll routes
mossy zinc
I don't agree with the learning curve being that high. It's not so difficult to do power shots.
bright mango
Its not just power shots
bronze viper
I don't agree with the learning curve being that high. It's not so difficult to ...
You don't agree with the hordes of people who've tried to sink a lot of time into learning Rama with a ton of Hades experience under their belts who just can't figure it out?
That's not really... up to you lol
solemn pulsar
"i think it is easy, so everyone else is just bad"
solemn pulsar
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/824082017662664748/832616845122338886/dsf...
pain
eager vortex
I hate td3
bright mango
The power of RI0
eager vortex
now
solemn pulsar
ME in tart with AP1 is still impressive
solar maple
and collar start LMAO
eager vortex
it's just luck
eager vortex
what's impressive would be to actually make it in time
bronze viper
Collar is +10 TD seconds. Tech
bronze viper
Geeeeez
solemn pulsar
i'm LOLing at collar start BC of no forced god pool, not that i think it's bad btw
eager vortex
it was an ares+athena seed, I should have made a backup save
solemn pulsar
does collar still give 50 on guan yu
eager vortex
fml
waxen relic
I'll admit Gilga has some interesting tech, shame it's still Gilgamesh https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/832617428394573824/20210416155850_1.jpg
eager vortex
does collar still give 50 on guan yu
no, 25
bronze viper
Does Longing still work on Maim?
solemn pulsar
p a i n
mossy zinc
Well, even if they have a hard time learning the aspect, I don't consider that a factor when I call it broken. I only look at potential, not at how much players suck or don't suck at bringing it out.
solemn pulsar
@waxen relic nice 0 damage hades fight (except for the timer damage)
waxen relic
Does Longing still work on Maim?
wdym exactly
bright mango
150/2
bronze viper
@mossy zinc That's fine, potential is a more objective measure, but I think the accounts of very good players in the community definitely show that the learning curve is necessarily high. I agree Rama's potential is ridiculous
eager vortex
good luck ever clearing EM4 btw
you think I'd prolly fail at hades even with me on gy ?
bronze viper
wdym exactly
On Gilgamesh release Maim would tick with Curse of Longing as if it were another Doom
eager vortex
true
solemn pulsar
idk how much timer you'll have left by the time you get there
even with a stacked build you're still looking at a 3+ minute fight i think
GY dash attack is slow, which limits your damage output
waxen relic
On Gilgamesh release Maim would tick with Curse of Longing as if it were another...
don't think it does so anymore. You even get the Heal from Doom nowadays
bronze viper
idk how much timer you'll have left by the time you get there
Twin Perfect Rama + Shackle is a buttton of damage.
Presuming you replace Twin with Triple Point Blank
solemn pulsar
i'm talking about ME guan yu
bronze viper
Oh
eager vortex
yea sometimes the convos get confusing
mossy zinc
Wait, cgull is Guan Yu?
solemn pulsar
and back to the routing boonless 64 question, remember that baj had like 7 minutes left going into EM4, and his build was slightly faster
than a boonless rama lol
if you allow chaos boons there's a much better chance IMO
bronze viper
chaos boons
solemn pulsar
ok have fun with your extra asphodel combat
bronze viper
:3
solemn pulsar
there goes another minute
mossy zinc
@eager vortex it's a good joke.
solemn pulsar
ironically, the best argument of "perfect play can clear max heat" is usually shot down by "timer comes for all, even if your dodging is perfect, build matters"
technically you could run divine protection and then never get hit to clear it and you'd never take timer damage
so that is one scenario where perfect play could not care about timer
but we talking boonless
but if someone clears 61 heat TD0 boonless
i'll take it all back
bronze viper
Wait. Divine Protection protects from TD damage?
mossy zinc
Just buy a lot of Jerky. Easy.
solemn pulsar
yeah lol
mossy zinc
It does.
solemn pulsar
like
divine protection: dont take any damage until you get hit to clear the shield
TD: take damage but you're not getting hit
solar maple
I mean the divine protection thing doesn't really prove anything that you and baj haven't already
solemn pulsar
yeah and not getting hit is harder than what baj did
which was get hit a couple times
bronze viper
I'm really good at not getting hit. I do it all the time between the times I get hit.
solemn pulsar
and also in this theoretical scenario you're not getting hit for much longer
solemn pulsar
I mean the divine protection thing doesn't really prove anything that you and ba...
Forge's personal goal is to make a max heat route that anyone can clear
that's hard, but not impossible
so athena dash, stubborn roots tech, etc
bronze viper
Democratize 64 heat
solemn pulsar
and then make it a "do it fast" challenge basically
solar maple
"anyone" hopefully means "people who could do 40 heat without too much trouble"
solemn pulsar
i mean it would still be wicked difficult
bronze viper
The problem is that there isn't a sufficiently... democratic aspect like EA Chaos to route for lol
solar maple
but yeah I would need an abslutely absurd rama build to beat em4
solemn pulsar
the time doesn't scale with JS
solar maple
I do suck with it though
solemn pulsar
but yeah I would need an abslutely absurd rama build to beat em4
divine protection, triple perfect/point blank, stubborn roots, and like 3 chaos dash strike boons
solar maple
s t u b b o r n r o o t s
solemn pulsar
anyway with ello's work and a little extra, i think we can make this sort of thing a reality without the routing nonsense
solar maple
gaming
bronze viper
but yeah I would need an abslutely absurd rama build to beat em4
I one shot a 40 heat max EM4 difficulty on Rama when I was looking to make a practice save lol. I found the build sufficiently stupid enough to do it. I'm now looking for a less stupid practice save.
solar maple
yeah but you actually know how to play rama
bronze viper
Yeah it was Triple Point Blank. That I imagine is relatively problematic not just for EM4, but for content in general for most.
solemn pulsar
you could just get any build to EM4
then use codex menu to make an ideal practice build
then save that savestate
you could make a bunch of them even
bronze viper
Codex scawy
solemn pulsar
apparently
there are so many people that come into the modding discord who haven't read the description of the mod being like "HOW DOES IT WOOOORK"
mossy zinc
yeah but you actually know how to play rama
pe-pe-pew twang KABOOM
solemn pulsar
and then someone copy and pastes a line from the description
mossy zinc
Is how to play Rama.
solemn pulsar
and they're like "oh tahnks :3
Nyaa out of curiosity what aspect do you think is the hardest to play
bronze viper
*pe-pe-pew twang KABOOM*
Is this what the Space Fox says?
mossy zinc
Let's find out.
@daring hedge You've got an enemy on your tail! Use the brake! (C down)
Hardest to do well with or hardest to optimize? And in what context?
solemn pulsar
you said rama was easy to learn
what aspect would be the hardest to learn
and perform well with consistently
mossy zinc
At high heat?
hearty onyx
Most Zag aspects
bright mango
^
solemn pulsar
skill at a weapon is the same for any heat level
high heat just adds dodging
but sure
high heat
since it's the high heat channel
but i haven't seen any speedrunners with legitimately good mechanical skill on a weapon struggle at high heat
solar maple
hm I would say the context does change it a decent amount
solemn pulsar
high heat being relative to each aspect obviously
since everything is kinda bunk
i just want to know which weapon you think is hard to master, doesn't have to be too specific
solar maple
for example I think eris is a more challenging heat weapon than it is for speedrunning
solemn pulsar
i would argue that most people with decent eris times (myself included) aren't actually that skilled at it
solemn pulsar
high heat exposes cracks in skill much more easily, yes
solar maple
well "able to get close to top level success without being very good" is a pretty good description of an easy weapon
bright mango
hestia
solemn pulsar
just say malphon already lol
mossy zinc
It's a complex question, I don't want to give a simplistic answer lol.
solemn pulsar
yeah i guess it's kind of a stupid question
since it's sort of tied to viable builds
like spears and fists (sans flurry/ME) are very hard to play
but is it because they're difficult? or just bad
like even if you're amazing at them, your performance gain isn't that much
bc they stinky
you're just always saying that weapons are easy, so i'm curious about the other end
mossy zinc
There's learning builds, there's learning basic execution and tech for the aspect, there's optimizing all of that, and then there are skills fundamental to any aspect.
solar maple
eh not to nearly the same degree
eager vortex
4 example I'd pick a decently built demeter over a bad build chiron
and chiron is bae
bronze viper
Pseudo and I both articulated similarly that no matter what button you're pressing on Zeus aspect, it feels like you're pressing it wrong, or could be pressing it better
I vote for that.
Aspects with continuous vs. discrete play space will necessarily be harder to master
mossy zinc
When I say an aspect is easy to learn, I usually mean easy to execute the basics. When I say it's easy in general, I mean the basics are easy to learn and the aspect is very strong compared to other aspects with just basics.
solar maple
"executing the basics" is not the main challenge of high heat though
anyone can spend 2 mins learning how to powershot skelly
will that let them even get close to doing that vs em4? no
mossy zinc
EM4 is more a matter of fundamentals than knowing aspects.
solar maple
every aspect needs to understand enemy patterns, but rama needs to do so more than anything else to be played efficiently
mossy zinc
Aside from some aspects being way better at the fight than others.
eager vortex
rama really needs practice and experience tbh
solar maple
with hestia, to attack em4 you need to carve out .1s of time to attack
with rama, a full second
one of those takes significantly more understanding of the fight
eager vortex
you can't just use it like ledger or tail after trying it out for 3-4 times lol
believe me, I tried
won't work
😦
bronze viper
Yeah I would say Rama is difficult because most aspects to some extent can do their thing and be fine but you actually have to be intimately familiar with how every enemy works relative to map and space.
Malphon and Zagius/Nem are like this too.
Arthur too
solar maple
with beowulf, you can legitimately just ignore lots of enemy patterns
I didn't know all of em4's attacks until I had cleared him on 50 heat over 3 times
try doing that on rama lol
bright mango
rama em4 is pain
bronze viper
Lol, even small things like Speeder Louts on Rama have a pretty hard learning curve
Or (barf) Speeder Slamdancers on Rama. Disgusting.
mossy zinc
The Furies are a joke with Rama in my experience.
solar maple
oh I agree rama is good at the fight
bronze viper
Yeah the Furies are exceptionally striaghtforward. Any boss that likes to showboat and stand still ezpz
solar maple
just saying I'm not just talking about absurdly hard fights
bright mango
The asterius fight is also pretty easy
With rama
Since there are so many opportunities to shoot him
bronze viper
Greatbows on Rama? Wow what a disaster
bright mango
oh yeah lol
bronze viper
It's very close to impossible if you get a room of Speeder Greatbows. You have to play so crazy on point and even then.
solar maple
yeah I die to elysium rooms that I would beat with most other aspects a ton with rama
eager vortex
greatbows are actually disasterous for rama, idk if that was sarcasm but I really have problems with them
solemn pulsar
rama's only advantages over beo are DC and not needing boons
eternal hare
or poms
bronze viper
No they're really bad. The behavior to hide slightly behind corners makes it soooo hard to pin them down
The best strat is to tag them all with Suffering and find a cluster of other enemies
But if there's a group of Greatbows by themselves it's so hard
bright mango
I do not think rama 50 is possible for me because that either requires AP2 or TD3. I want to be able to do AP1 and TD2. So the highest heat I could probably do is 49
With RI2
honest kernel
point proven: bow mains are chads and beo players are carried
solar maple
true
bright mango
point proven: bow mains are chads and beo players are carried
facts
eternal hare
no dark foresight is pretty frustrating on rama tbh
bronze viper
I do *not* think rama 50 is possible for me because that either requires AP2 or ...
This is fair. The 49->50 gap for Rama with HM is huge.
eternal hare
it's like, you see a pom and think "what a waste of a gold laurel. this could have been a heart"
bronze viper
TD2 Rama is very straightforward because you can play like coward bow. But TD3 means you have to like... get in there.
Scawy.
bright mango
exactly
spice lava
Affinity matters I think: Although Hadesprof was able to clear every aspect at 50, he ended up commentating on his run "I hate Talos"
eager vortex
I could do td2 rama if em4 wasn't such a bs
how do you even hit dad
without being hit
eternal hare
carefully
bronze viper
it's like, you see a pom and think "what a waste of a gold laurel. this could ha...
lmfao, this is low key why I like Hunter Dash. Finally, some kind of pom scaling we did it
eternal hare
a lot of empty dashes and waiting until he fully completes an attack pattern
bright mango
hunter dash is really nice
eager vortex
so play it like a dark souls boss ?
solemn pulsar
Pengy what happened to em4
eternal hare
hunter dash is so good that I get really upset when I'm stuck with just deadly strike the whole run
eager vortex
yea hunter dash is great on rama
bright mango
I cannot do em4 with rama
eager vortex
this is coming from a dd simp
bright mango
It is not possible
solemn pulsar
Pengy try EM4 FO1 TD3 AP1 🙂
mossy zinc
Affinity matters I think: Although Hadesprof was able to clear every aspect at 5...
Talos is a lot of fun, but the Dash-Upper is just worse in every way to Zag Fists and Demeter, which hurts, and the debuff and pull are very situational.
solemn pulsar
But I don't want to do TD3
FO1 should make speed easier
bright mango
I'll give it a shot
solar maple
latt's ears just perked up
bronze viper
I cannot do em4 with rama
I mean, this is literally everyone except for Tail and Retrash lol.
bright mango
I like that
bright mango
Td2 is just bliss
solemn pulsar
80k Health
mossy zinc
Should just put a period after "I cannot do EM4".
eager vortex
I won't be able to em4 with rama I just know it
bright mango
Tbh a good rama build will chunk down em4 CP2