#h1-high-heat-strategies

1 messages Ā· Page 277 of 1

solar maple
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if not you can get by with TD2

quartz mantle
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Plus it's 3 heat which you don't have to put into anything else

gentle lantern
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im definitely not doing td3 lmao

wintry berry
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I would remove HS and DC2 for DC1 + UC

quartz mantle
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I'd rather have DC2 on than CP1 personally

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Especially with fists

gentle lantern
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hmm i havent had any issues with dc2, i use it nearly every run

quartz mantle
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But HS is a lot of damage

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150 damage from Hades pots

gentle lantern
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oh fr? i didnt know hs affected those

quartz mantle
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Yea it affects styx poison, lava, and the pots as well as everything else you would consider a trap

solar maple
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in terms of losing boons underworld customs is generally less bad than convenience fee

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and it's 2 heat

gentle lantern
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okay gotcha

quartz mantle
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I like UC personally

wintry berry
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UC is not a big deal, you just need to track what boon you have and what boon you want to sell

quartz mantle
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I just think it's a neat mechanic

solar maple
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you can usually just buy a boon to sell and get most of your gold back

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just make sure to have a trash boon

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CP generally is not worth it, it makes bosses pretty significantly slower/harder

quartz mantle
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I have yet to turn on CP for a genuine high heat run

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and I'm doing 40 heat runs at this point

solar maple
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I would say more HL will almost always be easier than more CP

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going from 160% to 180% damage is smaller than going from 100% enemy health to 115%

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I step in traps a decent amount, so if possible avoid HS, but sometimes it's necessary

quartz mantle
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HS isn't awful but you need to play a lot more careful

gentle lantern
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i find its most difficult for me in asphodel

wintry berry
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HS is something you get used to

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like FO

solar maple
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it makes the lernie fight tricky with EM2 HS

gentle lantern
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i dont rly have issues w traps but i do with magma

quartz mantle
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Yea but FO gives me 5 heat

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HS gives me 1

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I'd rather get used to FO personally

solar maple
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but yeah my biggest advise here would be to swap CP1/CF1 for UC

wintry berry
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HS can be turned on at 40+ heat

celest grail
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what is a decent 40 heat pact for rama

solar maple
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I also tend to think HL is easier than HS

celest grail
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ive already taken hl5 and dc2, among other things

gentle lantern
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thanks for the advice yall

solar maple
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if more than 5% of your incoming damage is from traps, HS deals more to you

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and for me it definitely is haha

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(I take HL5 and HS though pretty much always)

celest grail
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do i take fo2 at 40 heat, i feel like ill die with it

quartz mantle
celest grail
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i have 0 practice with fo2

quartz mantle
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This is what I used

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But I also didn't use BP2 which I feel more comfortable with now

solar maple
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JS3 over bp2?

celest grail
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ikr

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i was confused for a sec there

quartz mantle
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Yea definitely use BP2

celest grail
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i still have 2 heat leftover

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i wanna do something without fo2

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only have js1 on rn

solar maple
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I mean you could just take that pact and swap FO2 with BP2

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then put on HS instead of one of the JS if you are scared of timer

celest grail
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js3 so

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ill go js2 and hs i guess

solar maple
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or if you feel like pain you could do AP1

celest grail
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nah

solar maple
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but I don't like AP1

quartz mantle
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AP is rigged

solar maple
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I would do HS + JS2 though

celest grail
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yeah doing that

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lets see how it goes

wintry berry
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I replaced FO2 with AP1 + JS2 for my 24x40 melee aspects

celest grail
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on another note: just finished 32x6, with the last run being a guan yu charged skewer run

quartz mantle
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gamer

celest grail
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indeed

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also was the first try at 32 heat with guan yu

solar maple
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as always, take my rama advise with a ton of salt because I've lost every high heat rama run I've ever tried haha

gentle lantern
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wait on lc4 do centaur hearts still have an effect?

solar maple
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they do

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they give max and current hp

gentle lantern
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huh weird

solar maple
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LC only affects healing, not +max hp. So fountains and food mostly

spice lava
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Healing =/= getting hp

gentle lantern
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gotcha

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if i purge a boon is it possible to get it back again?

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cuz i think i gotta purge divine dash šŸ˜­

solar maple
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you can get it back yes

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also how do you have to sell athena dash?

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do you only have like 2 boons?

quartz mantle
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There are forms of healing that are unaffected by LC

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Like Stubborn Roots and Draining Cutter

gentle lantern
solar maple
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you have 3 boons then? ares attack, athena special and athena dash?

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usually you can pick up 4 in tart I find

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but yeah if those are your 3 you may have to sell dash

quartz mantle
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I'd say at that point it's important to get ME as fast as possible because you really don't have a lot of damage prior to getting it

solar maple
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do keep in mind that if UC only shows you 3 good boons you can roll the sell well

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if you have a trash boon to sell that it just doesn't show

wanton plover
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one time i got too boon hungry bc of uc and i couldnā€™t pom the right boons kekw

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lesson learned

gentle lantern
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hell yes i got divine dash back

vital grove
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Hmm

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I think I have the best name myself now

bronze viper
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Wtf you can put a bow emoji in your name

vital grove
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Encapsulates what I'm about.

bronze viper
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TEACH ME YOUR WAYS

bright mango
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Lol ledger

vital grove
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Okay

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Go to settings, my account, change name, select an emoji

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And select šŸ¹

celest grail
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just copy paste

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if youre on pc

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just write /nick Paper - emoji here

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dont need to change your username

tropic stream
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the most first world of problems

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i want to kill myself with elysium eggs to activate SD to heal but my athena legendary is wasting TD time

bronze viper
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Oh, looks like I need to be nitrous to do that

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Discord confirmed p2w

dire steppe
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Nitrous

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Discord: whippets edition

gentle lantern
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does one satyr tunnel count as a chamber for the purpose of sd?

dire steppe
tropic stream
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each room yeah

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sacks dont

gentle lantern
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okay cool

tropic stream
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main styx chamber doesn't either

dire steppe
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how could you die in sack room

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hazard bomb i guess

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and TD

tropic stream
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do you lose time in sack rooms?

quartz mantle
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yea

pseudo girder
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if you ask me, there shouldn't be any time loss in sack rooms

tropic stream
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does draining cutter work with LC4?

bronze viper
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Yes

tropic stream
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crap

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should have taken it

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rip demeter

quartz mantle
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Yea any weapon based healing like GY spin, Cursed sword, and Draining Cutter aren't affected by LC

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Also Stubborn Roots still works

wide quest
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i never realized how easy stubborn defiance makes high heat ;w;

tropic stream
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stubborn roots best boon

bronze viper
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Lol, Draining Cutter used to be the werirdo exception

wide quest
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also im getting a liking towards gy and i dont know how to feel about it

bronze viper
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Join the pain in Astaos' stream lol

quartz mantle
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Is it still "final day"?

bronze viper
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this time for sure

quartz mantle
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lmao

bronze viper
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I derailed his progress though, he's trying out my AP2 TD2 setup, but I don't think it'll work for GY

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Not enough hammers that do anything

quartz mantle
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Interesting

gentle lantern
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YES I BEAT HADES

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32 heat šŸ˜Ž

shy plinth
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Grats!

quartz mantle
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Pog gamer

gentle lantern
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at this point i feel like ive done everything there is to do in the game lol

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story wise that is

bronze viper
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Yeah, for most of us here, Hades is a lot about setting and fulfilling personal goals

shy plinth
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Kinda lol

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I still find Hades really fun so I make goals to justify playing more

tropic stream
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well

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no paddy

shy plinth
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But really I just wanna play more Hades

tropic stream
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rip

bronze viper
shy plinth
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It's also probably worth noting perspective, which can be hard to gauge in this channel

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People like Tail were pushing heat two years ago

dire steppe
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There is an end to the heat spiral for some people

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I pretty much quit after 6 weapons 32 heat

shy plinth
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I'd say the vast majority of people hit one of the statues and dip

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Yeah

bronze viper
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Somewhat counterintuitively, the higher in heat you climb, the better the game is at making you feel like a garbage fire at playing it

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Dunning Krueger in practice lmao

quartz mantle
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For me if thereā€™s still something in the game that I havenā€™t done I donā€™t feel like Iā€™ve finished the game

tropic stream
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^

quartz mantle
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64 heat is an option within the game the devs planned on people beating and while it may take me a long time that is ultimately my final goal

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I have some funny gimmicks like never upgrading my mirror in my hell mode save because that seems fun to me

tropic stream
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32 heat fists done

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3/24

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who needs paddy

solemn pulsar
wide quest
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should i do 24/32??

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ive done 6/32

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but idk if i have the patience for 24

quartz mantle
solemn pulsar
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if 40 was max heat (i remember someone saying 40 was the highest they balanced the pact around at all), then all 40 heat runs would be the same

wide quest
solemn pulsar
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but aspects are so different that they want different pacts

tropic stream
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idk if i have the patience of 24/32 either but screw it

wide quest
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and having all of those on is stupid hard i doubt the devs could do it

quartz mantle
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Right but they could have limited the amount of heat you can put on the pact

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But they didnā€™t

solar maple
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yeah I like max heat being realistically unbeatable

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leaves more customization

solemn pulsar
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imma tell you right now Unova

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64 heat unseeded is next to impossible

quartz mantle
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You may be right

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But only time will tell

solar maple
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I do wish endgame wasn't just "max everything but RI, then hope for the best", but it is what it is

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RI4 is just so unbelievably painful

quartz mantle
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Iā€™m telling you they could have limited the amount of heat to 60 or something else but they didnā€™t

solemn pulsar
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because it would have been arbitrary ?

solar maple
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in fact 64 is a bit cleaner

quartz mantle
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Right but thatā€™s the thing

solar maple
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the skelly statues go 8 -> 16 -> 32

quartz mantle
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You have rewards for every square increment

solar maple
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for half of the total heat on the last

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powers of 2

honest kernel
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did they truly intend for max heat to be beaten or is it just a result of being the summary of all possible pacts? shadesmile

wide quest
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like

solemn pulsar
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yeah 64 is only in hell mode anyway

solar maple
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the second for sure

wide quest
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i dont think they expected people to turn all limiters on in transistor but its been done :/

solemn pulsar
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there's no reward for 64

wide quest
solar maple
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I mean I highly doubt they expected anyone to beat 60

solemn pulsar
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there isn't

honest kernel
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its prob possible but it seems like torture rn

solemn pulsar
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there isn't even dialogue for first run

gentle lantern
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has anyone beat 64 heat??

solemn pulsar
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no

honest kernel
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no

solemn pulsar
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it's not even torture

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it's just next to impossible

tropic stream
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highest beaten was 60

solemn pulsar
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(unseeded)

solar maple
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62 is the highest to realistically beat unseeded

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60 is wr

wide quest
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i mean if youre mechanically good enough you can theoretically beat it

solemn pulsar
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no, you still need damage

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if you don't have high DPS you can't beat the timer

wide quest
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oh yea :/

solar maple
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realistically

wide quest
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td3

solemn pulsar
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no amount of skill can carry bad boons through a 64 heat run in 20 minutes

solar maple
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it is technically possible

honest kernel
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waiting for someone to make a max heat tas

solar maple
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but I do not think anyone will ever do it

tropic stream
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lmao

solemn pulsar
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64 seeded coming soon :TM:

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the route will be done this weekend

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then baj just has to beat it

solar maple
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pog

tropic stream
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just beat it lmao smh

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šŸ™„

wide quest
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yea git gud

solemn pulsar
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well with the route AP2 is irrelevant, UC is mostly irrelevant, TD3 is sort of irrelevant due to free rooms, so it's technically more like a mirrorless 51

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note: AP2 was not irrelevant for assembling the route, it did make it slower lol

solar maple
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well when you put it like that

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easy

solemn pulsar
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it's basically an execution check on the few combat rooms there are to not take damage

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and then a boss rush

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in between

solar maple
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really though I do think he'll do it

solemn pulsar
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oh yeah he'll crush it

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EM4 is the main obstacle IMO

solar maple
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for sure

solemn pulsar
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but it's zeus, and the damage is sick

solar maple
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but I think baj is good enough with that buid

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I would lose that fight for sure lmao

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but baj is good

true fable
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only mirrorless 51

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pplaff

solemn pulsar
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well technically RI1 is sort of irrelevant, but you can't take the other 3 without 1

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since you don't need rerolls/rarity chances

vital grove
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I don't have it

solemn pulsar
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so maybe a 49 heat mirrorless basically

true fable
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well thats been done already so im not sure what we're proving here

solemn pulsar
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lol

solar maple
bronze viper
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cries

solemn pulsar
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bright's right, route cancelled

true fable
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thanks

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please do not waste our time again

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:^)

bronze viper
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yay

solemn pulsar
bronze viper
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Is there a limit to the number of rooms that can spawn from a particular room in a seed?

solemn pulsar
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there are some constraints, like the room itself (like the layout, # of exits, etc) is decided in the room before, like when you enter chamber 2 the rooms + rewards for chamber 3 are set

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but if it's a boon/hammer the exact reward isn't set yet

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and then you don't want to waste too much time doing RNG manipulations

true fable
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so you need to offset the rng for chanber 3 reward in chamber 1?

solemn pulsar
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if you want, say, rare crop in chamber 3, you just need to make sure it's a demeter in chamber 1

true fable
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i see

solemn pulsar
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the door to chamber 2 will say like
[reward in chamber 2]
room 1 - heart
room 2 - demeter

true fable
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and then the manips in c2 are for the boon reward in c3

solemn pulsar
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yeah

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but it's for the manips and the reward in chamber 4

true fable
#

i might want to make a dio beo route depending on how much para has started

solemn pulsar
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for any heat i assume

true fable
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ye

solemn pulsar
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any heat is more stressful because you really have to optimize chaos and keeping your manip number low

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IMO

true fable
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yee

solemn pulsar
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also you lose some flexibility since you can't cast do increment RNG by 1

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you can only do summons

true fable
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whats the rule again? <10 if the timer isnt paused?

solemn pulsar
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rule of thumb yeah

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i have like 20+ lol

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but i'm not going for a low time, just a clear

true fable
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i wonder if beo has any way to increment rng by 1

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lol have fun baj

solemn pulsar
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he'll have like 5 minutes at least for EM4 if not more

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he'll be fine

true fable
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imagine dropping route on a 20+ summon in styx tho

solemn pulsar
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styx shouldn't have too many

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fewest manips to guarantee 2 sack basically

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and splitting bolt maybe lol

true fable
solemn pulsar
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had to reroute elysium, lost my splitting bolt

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big sad

tropic stream
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this run is insane what

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lightning phalanx greater recall by elysium

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exit wounds

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set up for mirage shot

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then i never get paddy and die in styx or smthn lmao

solemn pulsar
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LP mirage shot haelPog

tropic stream
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now hopefully UC doesn't screw me over

solemn pulsar
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just sell the zeus core boon

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you don't need it now

tropic stream
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80% extra foes from chaos

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40% JS

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this should be fun

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lets see some bounces

celest grail
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Was about to beat eris 40 heat on first try, hades was at like 20% health on 2nd phase

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But then his laser glitched through the pillar and hit a pot that killed me

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so tilted rn

tropic stream
#

perfect hermes if i get flurry in styx

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PADDYYYY

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this is the bestrun i've had lmao

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also 120% extra enemies is very annoying

bronze viper
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Assuming it's not multiplicative

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It feels like it lol

tropic stream
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wouldn't it be less if it were multiplicative?

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yeah it'd be 116% extra

bronze viper
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1.4 * 1.8?

tropic stream
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WAIT

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I'M DUMB

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FOR SOME REASON I DID 1.2*1.8

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LMAO

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yeah that'd be 32% more

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do i take unshakable mettle

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or do i roll for extra DD

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is mettle even good

bronze viper
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Yeah it's good

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Everything stuns

tropic stream
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so

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hm

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there's no other athena boons

solemn pulsar
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id roll for DD personally

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unless you're oN AP

bronze viper
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If you're on AP0 I'd also probaly roll for DD

tropic stream
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yeah alright

mossy zinc
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Max Heat was not a concern when they balanced things, but you can still try it if you want.

tropic stream
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how many chambers is a tunnel usually

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including the final chamber

bright mango
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5

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Iirc

tropic stream
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rip

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i have 419 obols rn

bright mango
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Patty buff?

tropic stream
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yeah

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i was gonna go down

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since there's a 450 artemis

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and i could potentially get the legendary

bright mango
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Oh ok

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Rip

tropic stream
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paddy has 5 chambers left

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eh i think i can beat hades as i

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s

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4/24

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okay wh

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i took demeter to activate ice wine

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i didn't expect uncommon harvest

unique zephyr
true fable
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ive gotten to c11 on zag sword max heat

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dont think id be able to go much further

halcyon flame
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why the hell are you using zag sword

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when you can go zag spear

unique zephyr
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What about zag bow

halcyon flame
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zag bow is actually strong

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zag spear isn't

true fable
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zag spear is strong

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it can get flurry jab

halcyon flame
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and if it gets crossed out

true fable
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you reset

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šŸ¤·

tropic stream
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3 failed eris runs

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all because of the witches

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and some incredibly stupid BP combos

halcyon flame
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have you tried shooting them before they can shoot you

tropic stream
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duplicate + homing

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homing + double damage

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duplicate + FO

gaunt fiber
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4 sack killed the last run

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But we will get there

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Perfect god pool too

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DD on first styx room

bright mango
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After the second miniboss we had hope

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Then it gave us a 4 sack

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Who knows it could've been a 5 sack as well

tropic stream
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aand forced overtime double damage witches

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aaand i'm immediately dead

pseudo girder
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F

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This is why Battie exists

bronze viper
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I feel no shame instantly Meg'ing Erebus super elite witches on the spot. Burn.

unique zephyr
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what is a super elite?

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and how is that different from a regular elite?

bronze viper
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They only happen in Erebus and Dad summons. They have unique behaviors and a quadrillion armor typically

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E.g. Dad's super elite greatbows shoot 10 arrows

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Vs. normal 3

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Super Elite Witch in Erebus camps pillars and continuously kites to the opposite side of where you are. It only pops out to shoot 3 splitter projectiles, similar to the Elysium splitters

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But 3x

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You're exceptionally likely to see it in room 1 (so technically chamber 2) Erebus gates, because of how the points for enemy types work out.

bright mango
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Yeah I noticed the armor at dad fight is really hard to break

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I notice it a lot when fighting drakons

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at the hades fight

pseudo girder
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I like getting the armor piercing upgrades for those things alone

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Like Breaching Cross.

bronze viper
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Breaching Cross mvp for Elysium+ in general

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Insane for Lernie fight too

unique zephyr
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In TD3 practice I just timed out to Lernie :/

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and I felt like I was going as fast as I could

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I took a lot of time on Barge of Death

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Is there a way to make Barge of Death fast?

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the middle management version doesn't seem to be able to be fast

bronze viper
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I find it backwards, the non-MM version is sooo slow. Sometimes like 3 whole waves

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Are you using Meg to shred armor when the fight starts?

unique zephyr
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I didn't that time

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how much of a difference does it make? how many mini bosses are in asphodel

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i was wondering whether to save it for another mid boss or no

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I'll try using Meg there next time

honest kernel
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Barge, Power couple and the Witch circle are the 3 minibosses of Asphodel

unique zephyr
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I mean how many encounters can I see in one run

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mini boss encounters

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one or two?

solemn pulsar
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you only ever see one per biome

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like you can't go in to more than one

unique zephyr
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Ok good to know, I can fire off Meg in the mid boss then

solemn pulsar
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there is 1 midboss per biome, unless you try and skip it

unique zephyr
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I can still only play games 30 mins at a time for at least this weekend so I guess that makes some things more frustrating?

solemn pulsar
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which is slower than not skipping it

bright mango
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Barge is faster in mm in my opinion

vital grove
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It is yeah

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Ideally the crystal eats trap as soon as it spawns, then eats summon

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Then you kill it.

unique zephyr
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I didnā€™t think of using the trap to damage crystal, does it always spawn in the same place?

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Iā€™m not sure whether it would be better to do TD2 and redistribute heat but if I do that and EM2 that will be tough to make a pact, Iā€™m not sure what to do

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EM3 seems bad for fists

bronze viper
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Long Knuckle makes it easy. I avoid EM3 if I'm below 40

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Depending on mood I'll also avoid it at 40

pseudo girder
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Long Knuckle makes EM3 easier

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Since you can more easily schmoove out of the way of Asterius's melee attacks

unique zephyr
bronze viper
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Yes, and sword

sullen minnow
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very curious to hear this take

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so not in general?

bronze viper
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I technically avoid Hades the game on sword on principle, EM3 included

sullen minnow
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lol same

bronze viper
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? Is it that hot a take? I think EM3 is fun, and I just take pacts I like at 32

sullen minnow
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oh, I thought you might have been saying you avoided EM3 in general until 40ish for reasons

bronze viper
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Oh, no, I meant I avoid EM3 on fist/sword until 40

sullen minnow
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yeah for fists and sword EM3 is an extra challenge for sure

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in other news explosive arty rama makes you forget shared suffering is a button that exists lol

junior whale
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i dont mind em3 on sword at all

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no annoying spear

sullen minnow
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yet another weapon that plays like a more fun version of Gilgamesh than Gilgamesh

junior whale
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gotta wait out the stupid spin to win tho

sullen minnow
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I got twin shot with it too and I think I might have seen god

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God looks a while lot like chunking Asterius for a Megā€™s worth of damage off of a random crit apparently

bronze viper
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Lol, why would you NOT use suffering with Explosive Shot? The damage multiplier is so good

sullen minnow
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bro

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I was zipping through rooms so fast

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I didnt even have time to special

#

I tried to force myself to do it for a second for that exact reason lol

#

but 90% of stuff in a just evaporated in a single barely-charged shot anyway lol

#

It was wild. imagine having a weapon whose only attack is dem fistsā€™ giga cutter. Thatā€™s what playing it was like in most rooms

bronze viper
#

That was not my experience, and I actively like Deadly + Explosive on Rama. But lol, won't begrudge your fun with it.

sullen minnow
#

and then shared suffering took it into meg levels of damage per shot for bosses

#

on a crit, of course

#

I wasnā€™t at very high heat of course, just EM3 LC4 MM FO2 TD3, training weight kind of stuff

#

I hadnā€™t done explosive rama before that and I was blown away

bronze viper
#

I really like Deadly Explosive Zag bow. I do think that is very good

sullen minnow
#

All praise be to zag bow

#

Champion of nutso hammer builds

bronze viper
#

Let's not carried away lol, it's not Rama

sullen minnow
#

idk I feel like the hammers mean more to zag than they do to rama

bronze viper
#

They do

sullen minnow
#

but rama is in its own special tier of busted in general

bronze viper
#

Because Zag is worse at baseline lmao

#

But Rama also scales harder

sullen minnow
#

I put it aside for lots of thinking because well duh itā€™s the s-tier, now what else is there šŸ˜…

bronze viper
#

Nifty that the community is all like "duh Rama S-tier" now. How people forget šŸ˜›

sullen minnow
#

I didnā€™t know explosive could be so great with rama though. I though losing powershots would hurt much more but you just. donā€™t. care.

#

I wasnā€™t around before 1.0 but I canā€™t see how rama was ever anything but amazing

#

best balanced attack/special kit in the game and a broken debuff perk lol

#

thatā€™s what an s-tier looks like

bronze viper
#

Even post 1.0 it took a while to catch on. People see the longer charge time and immediately dismiss the aspect.

sullen minnow
#

oh man, second I saw shared suffering I knew there had to be some magic in that aspect

bronze viper
#

Tail pushed the aspect and got a lot of attention for doing it.

sullen minnow
#

+60% over a whole room is a huge cumulative damage boost

#

gotta love how metas evolve

bronze viper
#

Lmao, part of my hobby in Early Access was wading in the pits of builds-and-combat to defend Rama from the hordes of haters

#

I was pretty close to the only one who liked it, it was so ubiquitously hated

sullen minnow
#

how can something that can vaporize an entire room at once from relative safety be bad lol

#

people man

honest kernel
#

šŸ¤” oh yeah ppl thought it was rly slow

bronze viper
#

Tbf even now, the aspect has a really big learning curve at high heat, since you have to figure out when to get the power shot in in the first place.

honest kernel
#

to be fair it was not as good as it is now

sullen minnow
#

it is techskill demanding, Iā€™ll give it that

bronze viper
#

But it wasn't even like 10% as bad as people said it was lol.

sullen minnow
#

you need to be good at basic bow timing, then you need to learn Ramaā€™s own timing

honest kernel
#

nah

#

rama has been my fav weapon since it came out

sullen minnow
#

though explosive helps that a lot Iā€™ve discovered now lol

honest kernel
#

bow but good

sullen minnow
#

donā€™t think I powershotted a single time the entire run

unique zephyr
#

How should I time my Meg in the MM Bomber Tartarus fight?

sullen minnow
#

steamrolled the game

honest kernel
#

to be fair there was a time in early access where rama was just zeus special spam

bronze viper
sullen minnow
#

was shared suffering the same back then?

bronze viper
#

It started off as 80

sullen minnow
#

holy mother

#

Jesus jones

#

how did people ever, eeeeever call rama bad lololollll

unique zephyr
#

80 percent or 80 damage?

bronze viper
#

Lol, you sound incredulous but I can't emphasize how universal the hatred was lol

honest kernel
#

bow was disliked in general I think

daring hedge
#

power shot was slow as molasses

#

for rama in the past

unique zephyr
#

When I was new I disliked Rama bc it felt slow

#

But I also knew nothing lol

sullen minnow
#

oh, did they buff up the charge time?

honest kernel
#

yeah now rama is faster and does more dmg

#

yeah

sullen minnow
#

I could see hating it if it was worse

#

itā€™s right this side of barely tolerable right now

bronze viper
#

I think they only buffed the charge speed by 25%. Which is a lot, don't get me wrong, but still.

sullen minnow
#

thatā€™s meaningful

#

thatā€™s a go/nogo difference makerā€™s worth

honest kernel
#

all bows were buffed across the board iirc

bronze viper
#

By... a lot

#

Lol bow gang rise up

sullen minnow
#

Lol ok, this is making more sense

honest kernel
#

bow gang did it

daring hedge
#

bow was really suffering back in the day lol

honest kernel
#

now bow is top tier >:)

sullen minnow
#

bow is the best weapon as a class and itā€™s kind of not close

#

4 stone-cold killers in that lineup

bronze viper
#

The with bow before was that its hammers were absurdly good, and the base weapon was absurdly bad, so it kind of evened out but you have to get lucky

sullen minnow
#

among them a top-2 aspect

bronze viper
#

They then buffed the weapon to be in line with other aspects... and buffed the hammers.

sullen minnow
#

lol good for them

#

now do sword shakes fist

bronze viper
#

They buffed Twin Shot

sullen minnow
#

lmfao

bronze viper
#

I think they do a lot of balance around selection rate and I assume a lot of people found the old range reduction quite limiting

honest kernel
#

little did they know that bow was a melee weapon all along

sullen minnow
#

how did they go through all of that and sniper shot is still a thing šŸ™ƒ

#

this actually explains a lot

bronze viper
#

They buffed Sniper Shot's width by 33% iirc

sullen minnow
#

in nexusmods I think itā€™s Pony that made a mod to buff the bow

bronze viper
#

It is now... still unusable

sullen minnow
#

and I always wondered to myself why such a respectable guy would make such an odd mod

bronze viper
#

But I haven't noticed it doing a nonzero number of things on my AP2 Zag bow runs. It's chipping in every once in a while

daring hedge
#

the range for sniper shot is still super unreasonable yeah

sullen minnow
#

considering he straight out calls the bow the worst weapon in the game

#

but this is all starting to make sense now

bronze viper
#

Nonzero I mean pretty literally. It's best quantifier I can attach to the amount of work I see Sniper Shot doing

#

Nonzero

#

Much better than literally zero in the past though I suppose

#

Zag bow can use Sniper a lot lot better than Rama at least though, since you have to reposition for each shot and your charge is much faster

daring hedge
#

yeah like, it's hardly going to really make much of a difference but i def won't complain considering how good most other bow hammers are

bronze viper
#

And base crit chance does well with chunky bonus damage

sullen minnow
#

yeah zag is the only one Iā€™d even think about it for

#

and even then, blegh

bronze viper
#

I would never consider it lmao, it's been foisted upon me by AP2 and I've had to adapt

sullen minnow
#

rip

bronze viper
#

It's still better than most Sword hammers

sullen minnow
#

it doesnā€™t make the weapon stop functioning so definitonally itā€™s better than at least half šŸ¤£

bronze viper
#

To call Hoarding Slash nonzero would be stretching the mathematical definitions of what not being zero is.

#

And I'd call Hoarding Slash solid B tier for Sword lmao

sullen minnow
#

sadboy hours

honest kernel
#

I am not touching sword with a 10 foot pole so I wouldn't know

daring hedge
#

but hoarding slash cleared max heat what do you mean :)

sullen minnow
#

imagine having hammers that are only situationally worthless

#

this post brought to you by shield gang

bronze viper
daring hedge
#

ah yeah, long story short "yeah i had some weird gold bug idk" while posting a victory screen of max heat zag sword

#

with like 140 max health

bronze viper
#

He couldn't buy hearts

daring hedge
#

the funny part too

#

heroic life affirmation

bronze viper
#

I'd love to meet the guy who had to specifically code in the interaction for it to apply to damage after crit, because it is I think the only source of additive damage in the game that does that. "We can't let this get out of hand"

unique zephyr
#

I still get hit a lot in FO2 even on low heat

honest kernel
#

yeah i get hit like all the time in this game

#

but you got SD to catch you falling

sullen minnow
true fable
solemn pulsar
bronze viper
bright mango
#

@daring hedge now that you did all weapons 50 what are going to be your new projects?

daring hedge
#

not really sure honestly. might do streaks, might push higher heat on some aspects here and there, might do speedy 40 heat with more aspects

bright mango
#

Nice

#

Is it going to be possible for you to push above 60 heat?

daring hedge
#

for sure, it just depends on my own patience with the grind lol

#

specifically getting good hammers, hermes greatest reflex, and chamber luck

#

the works

bright mango
#

Yeah the timer is going to be the biggest problem right?

#

And the 1 dash

daring hedge
#

yeah, having hammers good enough for me to keep up with timer, extra dash to survive EM4, and not getting like 4sacked

bright mango
#

yeah

#

Good luck for whenever you grind!

daring hedge
#

i'm definitely going to try and stream more often; i know it's been kind of a dry spell lately

#

been busy with things

bright mango
#

I do feel that something like 64 heat is impossible

bright mango
edgy arrow
#

idk why i have to keep saying this lol

#

64 heat is demonstrably possible

#

itā€™s highly impractical

#

improbable, even

#

but thereā€™s nothing there which exceeds the limits of human reflexes or anything

shy plinth
#

The limits of human patience, though

edgy arrow
#

oh for sure

#

hence improbable

solar maple
#

SDs are a crutch

#

just look at tail's 50 heat speedrun

#

do that, but without boons, hammers, twice as many enemies, em4, and 1 dash

edgy arrow
#

i remember when i joined this community, i ran across a convo where a couple people were being like ā€œyeah idk if 40+ is possibleā€

#

then when i was actually starting to push heat people were like ā€œyeah only some aspects can do 50+ā€

solar maple
#

40+ impossible lol

edgy arrow
#

the boundaries of whatā€™s ā€œpossibleā€ keep being pushed is what iā€™m trying to say ig

solar maple
#

for sure

#

but the difference between 62 and 64 heat is pretty massive

edgy arrow
#

indeed

#

only time will tell tbh

#

to be clear i wouldnā€™t necessarily be surprised if we never see unrouted 64

#

but i wouldnā€™t necessarily be surprised if we do

solar maple
#

I think 62 will be done at some point

#

but I'm not a believer in 64

edgy arrow
#

what about 63

#

the number no one talks about

#

itā€™d be LC3 ig

solar maple
#

not sure

shy gulch
#

i dont really think theres that much of a diff btwn 63/64

solar maple
#

eh there kind of is

#

still absurd though

shy gulch
#

62 will probably be done whenever someone decides to have the patience for it

#

63/64 unrouted? dunno

solar maple
#

LC3 just about doubles your effective hp over a run I would imagine

#

not that small

edgy arrow
#

reduces your boons and such tho, since youā€™re burning gold on CF2 to use it

#

but yeah

#

just the fact you can make some mistakes makes it seem much more manageable

unique zephyr
#

Would dark regeneration or chthonic vitality be the play in LC3

solar maple
#

regeneration

sullen minnow
#

just curious psuedo, how do you arrive at that #?

solar maple
#

for sure

edgy arrow
#

but like you said; still absurd

unique zephyr
#

Why regeneration?

solar maple
#

aurash I just made it up

#

but it seems right

#

wait

sullen minnow
#

oh, just curious

solar maple
#

you don't have mirror

edgy arrow
#

okay iā€™d have to math this out

solar maple
#

lol

#

so neither

edgy arrow
#

but i think CV might heal for more

#

oh rip no mirror lmao

#

iā€™m dumb

solar maple
#

actually I'm not sure

sullen minnow
#

LC3 sounds like an interesting situation for me

#

Iā€™ve never considered 3

solar maple
#

how much it would heal

sullen minnow
#

2x hp is powerful to consider for 1 heat

#

over the course of a run

edgy arrow
#

the advantage of DR isnā€™t that it heals more, itā€™s that it heals mostly after bosses when youā€™ve taken a bunch of damage

#

so less of the healing is wasted

sullen minnow
#

I imagine CV gets to 1 healed minimum

edgy arrow
#

it can heal more, but to get that you need to buy darkness or use troves

#

and troves are a no go on TD3 ofc

#

CV also is waaaaay better in styx

sullen minnow
#

darkness in wells is nice as an extra bandaid

solar maple
#

if you were just doing LC3 and had a mirror regen is better IMO

sullen minnow
#

interesting

solar maple
#

regen with the boss darkness rewards heals you quite a bit

sullen minnow
#

ok yeah 1 per room is nothing. I had you backwards

edgy arrow
#

since CV bottoms out at 1hp/chamber

#

but you could be right

#

idk

sullen minnow
#

I wonder how nourished soul interacts with CV+LC3

solar maple
#

reset for +20% darkness on weapon

edgy arrow
#

we need wobbles in here lol

sullen minnow
#

do this sometimes for 32s with LC0 šŸ˜­

edgy arrow
#

he used to play LC3 non mirrorless all the time

#

actually i can check his screenshots

#

okay looks like wobbles thought DR was the play

unique zephyr
#

Whatā€™s CV

edgy arrow
#

chthonic vitality

unique zephyr
#

Oh ok

edgy arrow
#

the mirror talent that heals 3hp/chamber

unique zephyr
#

I was wondering what heat factor the acronym was

#

So I didnā€™t think of the mirror talent lol

#

Also I donā€™t use nourished soul much lol

edgy arrow
#

i was forced into nourished soul recently

#

first time that happened in a while

sullen minnow
#

I used CV for a hot minute before I discovered DR was better and itā€™s a good buff for that

#

worth at least a point of healing per room

edgy arrow
#

yeah DR is generally better for sure, unless youā€™re speedrunning

solar maple
#

CV is good with LC0 because fountains already heal you a ton between biomes, so you overheal a lot

#

but with high LC fountains don't, so DR becomes better

sullen minnow
#

yeah honestly before I started cranking up heat I didnā€™t take that much damage in general, so I valued the consistency

#

but DR represents much bigger burst healing after tough fights

#

and having darkness in wells is a good boost too

unique zephyr
#

I went from 16 to 32 and in 32 I go LC4, I should turn on DR in practice runs since I mostly ran CV

edgy arrow
solar maple
#

with LC4 it doesn't matter lol

#

with LC0 go CV imo

#

with LC ~2 go DR

edgy arrow
#

i used to run DR all the time back in the day

#

by which i mean, pre LC4

shy plinth
#

Lowkey I think vitality is way better

#

Two big reasons: Styx rooms and chaos gates

edgy arrow
#

DR really does have the potential to heal you for a lot more

solar maple
#

I actually haven't done the math, but the reason I think DR is better is because bablo told me so lmao

shy plinth
#

Dark regen is only good if you've already got bounties and you need big heals after bosses but don't pop DDs

#

Like we're really not taking darkness rooms

solar maple
#

oh yeah if you haven't done bounties DR is awful

edgy arrow
#

if youā€™re on low heat and not running TD/speedrunning like 1 darkness trove will absolutely smash the healing you get from CV

shy plinth
#

Until you get to styx

#

Styx is so important

solar maple
#

oh yeah darkness troves are big

edgy arrow
#

across the whole run tho

#

you can get more

#

you just donā€™t get it backloaded in styx

shy plinth
#

But you don't need to heal across the whole run, you need to close out

#

I would take 25 healing in styx vs 100 healing total

edgy arrow
#

true

shy plinth
#

Also sometimes you get that fat nourished soul and hit +4 per chamber

edgy arrow
#

iā€™m just saying, in terms of raw numbers DR is more if you can seek out darkness

#

whether itā€™s better or not is a more complicated question

shy plinth
#

DR is more healing, I'd just argue that it's less controlled and at less opportune times

#

In terms of the raw number yes it is more

edgy arrow
#

some folks have argued the opposite

#

idk iā€™m not even sure anymore at this point lol

shy plinth
#

I mean we all take the third option

#

So it's irrel

sullen minnow
#

honestly DR having extra heals in wells sends it over the edge for me

edgy arrow
#

yeah lol

solar maple
#

yeah I actually don't have much experience

#

I used DR briefly when I was doing 32 heat way back in the day

shy plinth
#

I very recently pulled off the LC4+SD bandaid

solar maple
#

I used DDs back then I think

sullen minnow
#

having the opportunity to have a second, cheap heal in a well roll is a clutch card to play that CV sadly Cant answer to

shy plinth
#

And I'll say I've been a CV gamer for almost all of my <32 runs

edgy arrow
#

lotta folks told me DR was just plain better back in the day, so i just assumed that for ages

#

but i did some rough math a while back and the reality seemed more complicated than that

shy plinth
#

Chaos gates costing 6 less health and styx healing you for somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-40 health is nice

sullen minnow
#

like I said I started off with CV because I thought the consistency would be a lot better

edgy arrow
#

this conversation has only confused the question more for me

sullen minnow
#

but wells being mini-bursts of health really tips it the other way for me

shy plinth
#

LC4 is optimal

#

Take LC4 and don't worry about it lol

sullen minnow
#

because then itā€™s a semi-consistent burst heal

#

yeah just be king Solomon and cut the knot lol

shy plinth
#

Wait wells as in buying darkness?

sullen minnow
#

yeah

shy plinth
#

Doesn't that pressure your gold a lot if CF is on

sullen minnow
#

Any time youre buying darkenss in a well for healing is because youā€™re largely out of better options lol

#

but any port in a storm

shy plinth
#

What's the % healing on DR again

#

60%?

sullen minnow
#

60

#

itā€™s something

shy plinth
#

How much darkness do you usually buy

sullen minnow
#

if you want a lesser heal than a full health pack for instance

shy plinth
#

Isn't it like 25

solar maple
#

you all are forgetting the bouldy darkness smh

bright mango
#

60%

sullen minnow
#

also bouldy darkness ā¤ļø

shy plinth
#

Bouldy is obv the best

#

But I thought the well sold like 25 darkness?

sullen minnow
#

or if youā€™re bleeding badly and you need to make it through the next room

edgy arrow
#

i miss clicked and got darkness from bouldy once

#

i just kind of sat there, rethinking my life choices

sullen minnow
#

it varies slightly I believe

#

and itā€™s affected by dark thirst

shy plinth
#

Ah right

sullen minnow
#

itā€™s not much, but itā€™s like having a candy health in your well pool all of the sudden

shy plinth
#

Just feels like CV would be pretty comparable healing to that, it's obv way less than the post boss healing if you're not at bounty levels

sullen minnow
#

for a decent price

shy plinth
#

Sure, but the price of free if you have CV on seems better

solar maple
#

12-26, usually quite cheap

#

+thirst sometimes

edgy arrow
#

if youā€™re not buying darkness/getting troves, CV will heal you for more

sullen minnow
#

yeah

solar maple
#

btw for LC2 I do actually think bouldy is the best probably

sullen minnow
#

if it wasnt for wells I would take CV for the consistency

#

but I feel like the well darkness pushes the needle back the other way for me

edgy arrow
sullen minnow
#

just from epxerience

edgy arrow
#

how much does he heal you for again

#

iirc it isnā€™t that much

shy plinth
#

LC2 is so weird

solar maple
#

he heals 40

#

for each summon

edgy arrow
#

yeah

sullen minnow
#

plus his darkness

edgy arrow
#

thatā€™s not that much honestly

sullen minnow
#

for whatever that is

solar maple
#

46 with DR

edgy arrow
#

imo it should be a full heal

solar maple
#

I mean it still deals 1k damage

shy plinth
#

Has anyone done the math on the EHP of skelly

edgy arrow
#

yeah imo it should do less damage and be a full heal

#

more of a niche that way

shy plinth
#

Eh I don't think they want that big of a health safety net on demand

#

Five full heals per run seems insane

edgy arrow
#

true

#

it is 200 health

solar maple
#

it's also 30 gold per summon

sullen minnow
#

gems should be more darkness imo

edgy arrow
#

i did like it a lot for LC0

#

but LC2 idk

solar maple
#

maybe you're right

sullen minnow
#

I keep bouldy on L2 and below

#

thatā€™s just me though

shy plinth
#

I'm full meg

#

Press button delete hydra

solar maple
#

at lc2 it might not be worth it. But still having a heal is nice

sullen minnow
#

love my bouldy bro

shy plinth
#

Killing the boss is more effective healing than actual healing

shy gulch
#

i think ive literally only used meg

sullen minnow
#

itā€™s more the everything else for me

shy plinth
#

Antos is good

#

Antos actually v good at high heat I think

#

Because furies

sullen minnow
#

I can kill the boss myself, hand over the health and gold

edgy arrow
solar maple
#

I also haven't had non LC4 in a non-speedrun in forever

shy plinth
#

@edgy arrow are you me

sullen minnow
#

if Iā€™m at a low enough heat that Iā€™m not running LC4*

edgy arrow
daring hedge
#

remember when i used antos in my high 50s and my only answer as to why was because i forgot to reequip meg

edgy arrow
#

idk what you do

shy plinth
#

Yes you do

#

It's what you said

shy plinth
#

Wait a minute I have an idea

#

@daring hedge 50 heat Mort

daring hedge
#

ew

sullen minnow
#

50 heat feather duster

daring hedge
#

i mean it would work but

#

why

edgy arrow
#

rip mort

shy plinth
#

It was the one accomplishment I was certain you had not done

edgy arrow
#

he tries his best

sullen minnow
#

trash at his job, just like his namesake

#

poor mort

daring hedge
#

i sometimes end 50s with like 2 megs remaining so

#

can't be that bad

solar maple
#

I pretty much always meg heroes + dad, aspho miniboss, elysium miniboss

#

sometimes I have 1 leftover though

true fable
#

i usually meg aspho unless its witches

solar maple
#

usually used in styx miniboss

daring hedge
#

for me it's barge crystal/power couple but not witches

solar maple
#

I meg witches with no dc out of habit

edgy arrow
#

i keep accidentally using meg in styx, and then not having one for Dad

#

i am not good at counting

solar maple
#

I love barge meg

edgy arrow
#

barge meg makes me feel so powerful

solar maple
#

I always set up meg -> trap at the start

edgy arrow
#

take that speedrunners; bet you wish you were running MM

#

^me, doing barge meg

solar maple
#

yeah barge is often faster on my 50 heat runs than my any heat runs

true fable
#

tailesque

#

im calling you out

daring hedge
#

for WHAT

true fable
#

you detonate the traps

daring hedge
#

yes

true fable
#

on barge

#

before meging

solar maple
#

smh

true fable
#

y tho

#

thats some coward stuff

daring hedge
#

me safe

#

leave me alone

solar maple
#

meg -> trap is so satisfying

#

I love it

shy gulch
#

c o w a r d

edgy arrow
#

also that crystal has like a million health on CP2

#

i need every trap i can get

daring hedge
#

listen one day i might lose a promising run to an errant trap going off

shy gulch
#

game better?

daring hedge
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i just prevent that from ever happening

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lmao

true fable
#

a coward dies a thousand deaths tailesque

daring hedge
#

do you need to coerce the crystal to go towards a trap? or is it already in range when it spawns

true fable
#

well beo you can knock it into it

daring hedge
#

wouldn't know because for some reason there are no traps when it shows up :)

true fable
#

i hate it here

solar maple
#

yeah I always hit it down

daring hedge
#

sorry i'm not using beowulf

solar maple
#

but that's because if I hit it a different direction it would knock it out

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not sure what happens if you just leave it

edgy arrow
#

Tail, technically youā€™re a beo player prove me wrong

solar maple
#

pretty sure I've done trap meg with other weapons though

daring hedge
#

yeah i just know it kind of drifts in a direction but unsure if it has to do with your position relative to it

edgy arrow
#

youā€™ve done 50, and that means youā€™re in like a 5 way tie for 3rd place

solar maple
#

since you start the trap before it spawns

edgy arrow
#

thatā€™s podium

daring hedge
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lol

solar maple
#

I do need to do 55+ this weekend

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once I finally get batteries

shy plinth
#

I pop two traps and make it eat the third

solar maple
#

beo players should I just do 55, or grind 56/57

shy plinth
#

If you hit the bottom right trap when the spawn circle shows up I think it always hits

solar maple
#

I'm thinking 56

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yeah I do bottom right trap

edgy arrow
#

56 is DC1 RI2 right

true fable
#

live a little

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tail

edgy arrow
#

is 55 DC2 RI1

true fable
#

try the trap strats

daring hedge
#

i will lol

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me destroying them is honestly muscle memory, i just kind of do it and i'm not sure when i started

true fable
#

museus' influence

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extends far

daring hedge
#

might have been some HS trauma

solar maple
#

I'm on hell mode

edgy arrow
#

yeah

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otherwise those numbers would be 55 and 54

solar maple
#

and I hate DC on a personal level so I take cp over it lol

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54 was CP2 DC1 RI1

shy gulch
#

i feel that

solar maple
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I think

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right?

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I actually don't remember now lol

true fable
#

DC1 is kind of funny

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like

edgy arrow
#

wait

true fable
#

big brain adjusting DC dials is funny to me

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idk why

daring hedge
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i did that for 50 which was maybe not smart idk

true fable
#

i used to do it for 45

edgy arrow
#

oh no yeah that makes sense

solar maple
#

what did you do for 50?

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DC1

edgy arrow
#

my brain wasnā€™t working

daring hedge
#

DC1

true fable
#

i did DC2 hehe

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maybe thats why i ran out of time

edgy arrow
#

i did DC0

solar maple
#

dc1 is slow, but if you have never done the beo em4 fight it's fine IMO

true fable
#

DC2 was not the move

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probably

edgy arrow
#

CP easier than DC on beo imo

solar maple
#

cp makes that fight pretty significantly harder

daring hedge
#

DC2 sounds extremely painful

solar maple
#

DC is much slower

true fable
#

it was

#

you were there

daring hedge
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yeah

solar maple
#

dc2 I time out in tart sometimes

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with bad rooms

true fable
#

i was literally getting carried by body slams

daring hedge
#

i mostly remember your EM4 fight which was very clean

solar maple
#

CP2 DC1 almost never time out until elysium with a trash build or 4+ sack

true fable
#

it was clean until timer started ticking

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and i got nervous

daring hedge
#

relatable lol

edgy arrow
#

yeah it was clean

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yā€™all always say EM4 is free on beo but thatā€™s just cause youā€™re good at it

true fable
#

i lost like 3 acorn charges and >200 health in phase 3 iirc

solar maple
#

yeah once you learn the em4 fight CP is fine to take

edgy arrow
#

the fact you had acorn charges in phase 3 means it was clean

solar maple
#

I'm at the point now where if I play well and have good damage I can beat EM4 with no patty/DDs

edgy arrow
#

man

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i wish that were me

solar maple
#

which I definitely could not say a few weeks ago

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my first clean em4 fight ever was my 54 heat run

edgy arrow
#

iā€™ve actually been taking a break from beo and doing hestia stuff recently because dying to EM4 repeatedly is pain

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i need to get good

shy plinth
#

I tried to learn the fight by watching retrash vods

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But my sanity quickly unraveled so I did something else

edgy arrow
#

thatā€™s amazing

shy plinth
#

What I consider a build and what he considers a build are... not the same

solar maple
#

I did that fight so well

shy plinth
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But he clears

solar maple
#

yeah don't look at retrash vods for boon advise lol

true fable
#

playin hestia is not the way to get good imo