in speedruns you go aphro special -> heart rend, but you don't have that luxury most of the time in high heat
#h1-high-heat-strategies
neat sonnet
I can imagine
solemn pulsar
What’s first best
solar maple
uhhhh
solemn pulsar
Oh wait thought you meant dedge was 2nd best
solar maple
double edge lmao
solemn pulsar
Yess
solar maple
toss up between that and piercing
piercing is better with DC2 I think
but with BP2 no DC I like breaching
bright mango
heart rend+ double edge nem is HUGE damage
Yeah things just die instantly
With +hermes dashes 
shy plinth
I should clarify my earlier meme, Haelian super good
Turns out a hammer that gives +140% base damage to your dash strikes is strong
neat sonnet
yeah surprise surorise
solemn pulsar
It makes sense from a design perspective, almost. The hammers are meant to change play style with a weapon. Double edge was meant to emphasize dash strikes. That would be good, except sword combo sucks and all that’s good is dash strikes, so it’s just a flat buff
shy plinth
I mean it makes sense from a design perspective that doing broken things is fun for sure
Double edge arthur feels rad
shy plinth
Yeah
solemn pulsar
But they basically are the kit
shy plinth
Base stygian weapons might be my least favorite to play in the game at this point
Like everything they do is just done better by some other weapon
solemn pulsar
Zag bow is sick
shy plinth
At least with poseidon you don't actually have to use the weapon
Oh I mean the three swords
solemn pulsar
Oh I gotchu
shy plinth
Zag weapons are fine, stygius sucks
solemn pulsar
Idk Poseidon is pretty unique
shy plinth
Yeah like you don't have to try to do damage with attacks
solemn pulsar
Only weapon that does base casts well
solemn pulsar
What does nem better than nem?
I’ll give you zag sword sucks though
Mostly bc the attack speed is useless
shy plinth
I don't think anything is better at being nem than nem is
I just don't think being nem is a good thing
unique zephyr
what's everyone's favorite zag weapon and are any good at high heat? I basically only have zag weapons left to pump blood into
that and lucifer and arthur
shy plinth
The number of things that have to go right for that sword to be mildly functional is kinda crazy
Zag shield is basically a fist weapon, zag bow is solid, zag fists is fun
Sword sucks, spear sucks
bright mango
Spear can be fun
shy plinth
Rail is unexcitingly fine I guess
shy plinth
I can see situations where spear is like kind of okay but it's such a trap
Because special focused builds don't really work
Unless you get the nuts hammers
bright mango
yeah explosive or chain is fun
bright mango
All zag aspects are just sooo meh
shy plinth
zag spear is a beaut
What do you even do with it
edgy arrow
there’s loads of good zag aspects
zag shield, zag bow, zag spread fire, zag flurry jab, zag 100% dodge
it’s really just zag sword that doesn’t have a niche honestly
honest kernel
Zag shield is kinda like Charged Zag or Pulverizing Zag lol
next oasis
Agreed
next oasis
I wish sgg would fix flood flare beowulf w sea storm so i can feel like a god
edgy arrow
you can already feel like a god with flood flare
it good
also based on Amir’s reaction last time the interaction was pointed out to him i don’t think they intend to fix it
edgy arrow
yeah
honest kernel
Well, fixing it would involve getting the flood flare to actually do knockback between multiple shots
Which would make it awkward for rooms
next oasis
Yeah
honest kernel
If you don't actually knock back an enemy, Sea Storm doesn't proc
That is the intended behaviour
next oasis
But they could just add an exception. No?
honest kernel
They could
next oasis
I hope so
honest kernel
But I'm not sure whether it's worth
next oasis
But like
next oasis
Lol
honest kernel
You can do damage in the thousands with the cast alone
Oh, the last one doesn't ?
Ok that is weird
solemn pulsar
Yeah
edgy arrow
honestly half my issue is that it counts as a prereq
next oasis
Imagine how much damage you would have w mirage shot, fully loaded, sea storm, deadly strike, and flood flare. ON BEOWULF.
Period.
edgy arrow
idk i’m still salty because i missed mirage shot a couple of times because i’d qualified for a worse duo by accident
honest kernel
It's ... really not that much more damage
edgy arrow
yeah it’s not crazy at all
honest kernel
sigh. Green Boon, I guess
next oasis
*sigh*. Green Boon, I guess
Now you get itttt
solemn pulsar
It would be good with mirage
Since you’d get the full 40 lightning damage or however much
And not 30%
honest kernel
Does that account for the Internal Cooldown ?
I thought the Mirage Shot was instant on the flares
bronze viper
Nice, found a pact setup and build that makes 50 Zag bow very easily possible. I just have to execute. Died to heroes from chip because I had 100 eHP. I still don't really know how to reliably dodge the three waves that come from Asterius' slams in p2
Other than be behind him
sullen minnow
Does selling hermes boons for UC count for/against his total boon counter for a run?
shy gulch
selling hermes doesnt affect him appearing again or anything
sullen minnow
Ok, thanks
solar maple
flood flare does have a bit of knockback between shots, but sea storm has a minimum knockback threshold (not really sure why) which flood flare does not reach -- same with the flaring hammers. It does trigger other knockback effects like razor shoals
I do think it's odd though that flood flare is a prereq for sea storm when it doesn't even trigger it though
vital grove
Yeah that is very inconsistent
solar maple
all the strimmers doing 50 heat beo
I feel so special
duunk0 is going to do it next
next week maybe
unique zephyr
So I can probably do TD3 on Demeter fists (my fastest weapon especially with Merciful End), gonna make the pact a lot easier for me for that weapon
spice lava
Beo sounds really fun but I'm not a cast player
yet
If I'm a beginner one day with beo, do you recommend Infernal or Stygian Soul? @solar maple
unique zephyr
Not sure if this is the right place to ask but any tips on FO2 EM4 in case I take it at high heat someday or just for the fight in general? @north dove
What should I keep in mind boon selection wise for EM4?
spice lava
Whatever you need to build your damages, hermes for survival, and considering that all of Dad's patterns are "doubled"
Like he'll spin twice instead of once for an example, so dodging the first one isn't enough
You want solid damages because he'll summon mid boss instead of classic minions during phase 1 and they can be very annoying
Basically it's already difficult to dash in order to get out of the spin range when facing Hades with FO2
spice lava
But FO2 + EM4, you don't use your dash to get out of the spin range, you use it to avoid the spin damages because getting out of its range won't work most of the time
edgy arrow
If I'm a beginner *one day* with beo, do you recommend Infernal or Stygian Soul?...
i'm not pseudo but infernal for heat stuff
spice lava
And he can rush like Achilles' special
edgy arrow
stygian soul means going dio cast, which is a highroll build that's hard to get working at higher heats
still possible ofc
tyler used it at 50, but even he's said he wouldn't recommend it
spice lava
Yeah it looks like Infernal is good except when you have dio cast but I wasn't sure
celest grail
Dont you love it when a 32 heat poseidon sword LP run with parting shot, flurry cast and greater recall gets ruined by you forgetting to take acorn for dad fight
solar maple
ohokwy is correct. Infernal is better on everything but dio cast, and dio beo is inconsistent at best for high heat. Infernal then pos cast is the way to go for 50 I think
solar maple
who did it this week
haelian was attempting 50 heat beo
almost got it first try
4 sack ruined him 😦
spice lava
Pos because dmg + knockback to keep distance with foes?
solar maple
pos because aoe mostly
also builds into mirage shot well if you get the opportunity
aphro/artemis casts are also fine
slightly more damage, but smaller aoe
spice lava
The double cast duo?
solar maple
yeah that's the one
with poseidon cast the main gods you are looking for are artemis on attack for mirage shot, demeter for snow burst (and rav will), and athena for DDs
I like to have a DD because if you don't get patty or a DD em4 can be tricky
for the pact I tend to leave RI0 AP1 DC0 then max everything else (CP1 for hell mode)
DC1 over CP2 is also fine if you are scared of em4 and don't mind being slower/slightly harder normal rooms
solar maple
What should I keep in mind boon selection wise for EM4?
never ask retrash for boon advise. That way lies madness
spice lava
Boon advise is more like letting AP2 decide 
hoary pasture
I like to have a DD because if you don't get patty or a DD em4 can be tricky
Can you elaborate what DD is? I'm not a high heat player, I just like the conversations here, some things are really helpful, I would think Death Defiance or Divine Dash, but if you have Stubborn Defiance on, Last Stand and Deathless both dont give you an extra death defiance or do they? I'm confused ngl
gaunt fiber
You don't reallyt need specific boons for EM4, you have to learn the fight
solar maple
Death defiance = DD
gaunt fiber
gottem
solar maple
if you have stubborn defiance, and you have lost your SD in a room, then the athena boons do give you a DD
if you haven't died in the room they do not you are correct
it's a bit of a weird interaction
hoary pasture
So when you enter the next room your SD refills and you have 2 DDs now?
solar maple
you have an SD and a DD
gaunt fiber
Yes
hoary pasture
Damn thats interesting
hoary pasture
tyty
gaunt fiber
Usually you want to keep them for Hades
spice lava
At high heat it's sometimes good to use Athena keepsake in that purpose + looking for Athena dash
Generally during Asphodel
solar maple
always try to die before picking up an athena boon if you already have an athena core for that reason
yeah easiest to die in aspho, just take a quick lava bath
gaunt fiber
Athena core except the call because ???
Athena will always offer the call to prevent you from getting DDs after
She never fails to disappoint tbh
spice lava
Idk in which situation tooth is better than acorn against Hades
gaunt fiber
Acorn is like a gamble vs EM4
solar maple
I tend to take acorn vs em4 these days
solar maple
so yeah personal preference lmao
gaunt fiber
For me tooth is life insurance for aspho/ely
solar maple
butterfly/sneak can be annoying with acorn
spice lava
If you take acorn vs small damages it's a bad take, I get it, but using tooth instead is another bet as well
gaunt fiber
Acorn also preserves my mental health. If I don't lose hp I'm still playing "well"
solar maple
with beo I also just hide in the bottom right corner and block everything
which invalidates most of the miniboss summons
gaunt fiber
true
spice lava
Acorn + Patrocle saved my 53
gaunt fiber
Big plate safe as Tyler says
solar maple
I've kept acorn until phase 3 before
gaunt fiber
Acorn + Patrocle saved my 53
Patrokeul Kappa
solar maple
but that was with high dps and not so bad summons
spice lava
When you face Hades EM4 with beo, do you feel damages come more from dad or minions? Both?
gaunt fiber
I think you don't take damage as Beo
solar maple
I take more damage from dad
but all his attacks are definitely avoidable
my main advise is to keep your back to a wall when adds are spawned
getting surrounded is bad
then I usually bull rush I frame through dad's attacks
that lets me dash attack -> block before the next attack comes out
to either block or bull rush the next attack
spice lava
Do you need to dash to avoid damage from dad at melee range or iframe bullrush is enough for that?
solar maple
sometimes you do
bullrush is enough if you plan ahead though
if you try to bull rush mid combo you can dash I frame a later hit
which is slightly faster so with a very tight timer you can go for that
but I usually just block all but the last hit of a combo, I frame the last one, then set up another block during his recovery
no dash I frame required for that
back against a wall is very nice for the blocking so some random add doesn't snipe you
obviously the fight is hectic so you have to improvise sometimes
mossy zinc
What should I keep in mind boon selection wise for EM4?
Greatest Reflex > all.
@honest kernel congratulations! 
honest kernel
thanks ❤️
i frogot how nasty white hydra with bow is
lost 2 runs with hera to it 
edgy arrow
we really gotta decide as a community whether it’s white lernie or blue lernie
i don’t care which but there’s no reason not to be consistent
waxen relic
how about metal-lernie?
mossy zinc
White Lernie predates Blue Lernie, so the choice is very clear. #h1-high-heat-strategies message
mossy zinc
I don't remember allowing you to contradict me.
mossy zinc
@honest kernel we gotta stick together. 
honest kernel
I'm sorry but the horns are blue 😔
mossy zinc
But you still remember when the original heads had no different horns and stuff and White Lernie was just white, right?
We can't erase history.
honest kernel
no it was orange
edgy arrow
i was starting to wonder why we called them white heads in the first place, but yeah the sprites used to be different
honest kernel
the wiki says white-blue I can't....
mossy zinc
The main head was always purple and always shot purple arrows. The other heads had color variants like now. When they added the variants for the main head, they just had the different colors.
edgy arrow
i mean
i’m down for that
it also resolves the problem where newer players don’t know what we mean by blue/white heads
honest kernel
it sure does slam
solar maple
they do be slammin
edgy arrow
slammers do have a very distinct silhouette
you see those big horns and you know you’re about to die have a fun time
neat sonnet
Cause yellow and orange are similar (I think there’s yellow oh god) and sometimes they blend with lava so y’know
Mostly look for curlies or spikes or whatever the lava heads have
edgy arrow
looks like the wiki gave them all descriptive names but they’re all terrible except slammer
“ranged”
which one is that
i don’t even know
honest kernel
could be either purple or yellow
edgy arrow
“summon” is at least clear, although grammatically incorrect
should be “summoner”
apparently “ranged” is supposed to be the orange one??
i don’t understand the logic here
i agree i would’ve thought purple or yellow
purple is “control” wtf who came up with these
mossy zinc
Those names are from the game files.
mossy zinc
Why not just @ him if you want to talk to him.
mossy zinc
Not so very brave, are we. 
neat sonnet
I think ‘bullet’ ‘laser’ ‘lava’ ‘summoner’ ‘slammer’ ‘basic idk-rusher? Is that one still in the game?’
Did I get them all?
Maybe wave as opposed to laser
neat sonnet
Yeah nah
edgy arrow
Not so very brave, are we. <:squirtnya:472124054644457472>
what can i say, i’m a shield player
neat sonnet
It’s early(ish) but that jumped to mind, I think wave is way better
Do the ones that can only like.. neck charge(?) still exist
edgy arrow
they all neck charge
mossy zinc
I don't know if you caught them all. Last I checked, there were 151 + Togepi. I haven't checked in awhile, so there might be more now.
neat sonnet
I’ve played since lernie was born, I can’t always rmemeber
Dang professor nyaanyaa I’ll get back out there
edgy arrow
yeah
neat sonnet
Oh I see
edgy arrow
but they can all neck charge
neat sonnet
That’s what I was caught up on, I thought there were still ones that could only charge
edgy arrow
they just do it less often because they have other stuff to do
neat sonnet
Yeah
mossy zinc
they just do it less often because they have other stuff to do
Yeah, like dying.
neat sonnet
No I’ve seen them all charge but thank you for letting me know I’m not insane
edgy arrow
must’ve been rough before they added “dying” to the list of things hydra heads could do
mossy zinc
No I’ve seen them all charge but thank you for letting me know I’m not insane
We didn't say that.
neat sonnet
Oh but I might
edgy arrow
anyway
edgy arrow
blue/white heads are now called slammers
mossy zinc
Let's not jump to conclusions.
edgy arrow
damnit now there’s just going to be three conflicting names aren’t there
i’ve made this situation worse
neat sonnet
Nyaa it is toooo early for this level of nuance
mossy zinc
So you're saying you're no match for me.
neat sonnet
Of course not
mossy zinc
blue/white heads are now called slammers
Slammers has been a name for them for awhile.
neat sonnet
You could erroneously call the ‘wave’ heads ‘wave-makers’ cause it’s the same projectile
edgy arrow
oh no
mossy zinc
edgy arrow
name things after different things in the same game
mossy zinc
It's not an error. They make waves.
edgy arrow
this can’t end well
edgy arrow
2018 geez
edgy arrow
alright, based on your “earliest” argument they’re slammers
neat sonnet
Slammers is how I think about them
edgy arrow
“danger” is how i think about them
neat sonnet
Too true
edgy arrow
but that’s not a catchy name
neat sonnet
Squishies
mossy zinc
alright, based on your “earliest” argument they’re slammers
Sure, if you want to be a casual. But in high heat, we call it White Lernie.
neat sonnet
They can and will squish you
edgy arrow
any number? oh boy
mossy zinc
It's common to name animals after the sound they make.
edgy arrow
that's too much power to give me
neat sonnet
Like pikachu
edgy arrow
auergh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mossy zinc
For example: Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Horse.
edgy arrow
horse just be like "horse, horse"
that's how you know its a horse and not like a donkey or something
edgy arrow
i've definitely heard that before probably
gaunt fiber
Hades is Zagreus confirmed
mossy zinc
Well, he speaks in the name of Hades, people call him Little Hades.
I don't see why not.
gaunt fiber
Yes it's valid
mossy zinc
His real name is actually little godling, though.
gaunt fiber
:o
wintry berry
50 heat Arthur: it is done ! Not unseeded, it was the first run when I started the game. I got all the main boons and hammers I wanted, Patty on the way, and got enough time for end boss to play very safe
spice lava
Victory screen? 👀
wintry berry
halcyon flame
shadow slash on arthur is pog
honest kernel
nice
tidal trench
wow
edgy arrow
wow 50 arthur is amazing
light stag
So a crit backstab on this would deal 759 / 1012 / 2532
north dove
Not sure if this is the right place to ask but any tips on FO2 EM4 in case I tak...
The fight is really about reacting accordingly to his attack patterns and not losing focus so you'll need to fight him a few times to get used to him. I do recommend doing the fight a few times at low heat (with HL0 and FO0) just to get a little more time to practice and slowly raise the heat as you get better at the fight.
dire steppe
you should trust his opinion^
neat sonnet
aight so
I got 4 sacked
but I still have almost 6 minutes left on this zag bow
32
I think we got this
scarlet ruin
get em
bright mango
Retrash needs to get his bug fixed
neat sonnet
DIDN'T EVEN LOSE ACORN
let's go
second 32 down
took a few tries but I guess it clicked
unique zephyr
Tried for a Merciful End build on my 32 heat fists run, it didn't come and I died to Theseus 😦
ran out of time for tight deadline 3 in that fight
Do I need to learn how to speed run this game to make TD3 consistently or something
neat sonnet
I would say no, but there's an element of quick decision-making, getting lucky with free rooms, and knowing your cycles to clear rooms quick
oh and good enemy luck
some rooms are just slow :/
unique zephyr
how do I get the enemies to not spawn far away from me
neat sonnet
pure luck my friend
unique zephyr
I wonder if my only 32 heat win was a fluke now :/
neat sonnet
both my 32s finished comfortably under the clock, but then again both were insanely powerful. I'm pretty sure the other wasn't a 2sack, but I can tell you for sure this one was a 4
neat sonnet
I'm sure you can
mine have been zag bow (just now) and GY
hestia I tried once and got on pretty well, died to heroes, but it felt slower
I think it is partly about getting a good enough build or being able to compensate with your own mechanics
unique zephyr
GY? interesting, what build did you do for GY and pact
neat sonnet
for the 32 I can check
arti special heart rend charged skewer
and since I'm obscenely lucky it was my second attempt
unique zephyr
and how about zag bow?
neat sonnet
look just above
unique zephyr
wow your times are fast
neat sonnet
that one felt nasty good, chain shot and twin kinda rolled
unique zephyr
my fastest time is like 16 mins
or a bit faster
I can't make TD3 consistently
do you sometimes fail the deadline too
or is TD3 almost free for you
neat sonnet
I haven't actually put in a ton of td3 attempts, but I have absolutely failed on deadline (once on dad which was sad)
aight where's one of my lovely beo one tricks it's shield time
mossy zinc
how do I get the enemies to not spawn far away from me
@plush scaffold do you have the link to your guide for @unique zephyr? It's probably more in-depth than he needs, but it should prove helpful nonetheless, I would think.
Found the pin in the speedrun server, after all.
unique zephyr
Thanks! I still am astounded at how fast people can be, I don’t even know how people make TD3 with EM4 on but some can apparently
true fable
aight where's one of my lovely beo one tricks it's shield time
you called?
unique zephyr
The thing mentions “low value” for enemies (more spawns if enemies spawned are low value), apparently each enemy has a value but I’m not sure how that works
true fable
each room has certain difficulty value that determines how many enemies spawn
that difficult value is determined by chamber number and depth in the biome
enemies will spawn until that value is reached
neat sonnet
ok bright, what is the go-to beo strat at 32
true fable
flood flare should be fine
or passion flare
dio beo if you feel like high rolling
all 3 want mirage, but flood flare probably wants it the most
neat sonnet
oh yeah do I use three casts or recharging
true fable
three casts for flood or passion, one for dio
neat sonnet
aight I'll start flood, top three hammers for beo?
solemn pulsar
if you're not used to beowulf play I would go watch some videos TBH
the playstyle can take some getting used to
it's not like some other aspects where just knowing the gist of the weapon + the build is enough to go through
neat sonnet
who should I watch (this is an invitation to plug someone)
solemn pulsar
just peruse the spreadsheet if there's sub 50 heat clears, since the strategies are different
if you want to watch any heat runs, that's obviously a little different
unique zephyr
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M8uSUx4vW6TZHHb8z7SbGL4uWxcME7aB3LAIikfp...
Thank you, I’ve been wondering about this info forever! What is a “super elite”?
solemn pulsar
Hades summons
I think. Maybe not
Always forget
These are the difficulty values per chamber
This does not take into account Jury summons
unique zephyr
Does jury summons multiply the room difficulty by the JS modifier?
true fable
aight I'll start flood, top three hammers for beo?
charged shot >>>>>>>> ferocious/sudden/wallop/breaching
charged flight and dread flight have niche uses
and if you get both you can swag on ppl from afar
true fable
for videos, ananke, cgull, me wriste and tounis all have good anyheat vods. for high heat just watch pseudo if he has any videos
i think sudden is better for high heat
solemn pulsar
Does jury summons multiply the room difficulty by the JS modifier?
I don’t remember, so I can’t say
It will have basically that effect
bright mango
pseudo is the god high heat beo player
solemn pulsar
for videos, ananke, cgull, me wriste and tounis all have good anyheat vods. for...
Aren’t most of those dio beo though
neat sonnet
watching a 32 speedrun of yours
true fable
it does, but it also doesnt really change the number per wave significantly
unique zephyr
Ah ok, also if I have damage control on, can I tell if an enemy is an elite or not before damaging it
true fable
ye those ones except wriste's are dio beo
solemn pulsar
But once you’re in the room it doesn’t matter much
true fable
wriste's is probably the best flood flare one
unique zephyr
Oooh ok thanks!
true fable
i guess for best guides watch wriste's 6:51 from this patch or bablo's 7:11 from 1.0
both do a great job of showing how you should be picking up stones n stuff
obviously its anyheat so play safer than they do but the mechanics still apply
neat sonnet
sounds good
bronze viper
@gaunt fiber What is, AP2 TD2? I suggested it yesterday, but Spear has way less good hammers than Bow so it's kind of iffy. Didn't want to usurp his channel with Spear talk lol
gaunt fiber
Yeah, that
I know you suggested it, but at first I was like "AP2 no more"
But now the time is my enemy
bronze viper
Lol I hate AP2 the same as most people, but also Zag bow has 2/4 good priority boons from Artemis
And with TD2 you really don't need a hammer
But yeah I think it's still worth a shot. GY base damage is pretty good, you just have to reset to Deadly Flourish even harder x_x
true fable
are you really going to get enough to where DF is worth more than just heartbreak flourish
especially on AP2
i guess your heartbreak flourish is likely going to be a common
at which point the difference is negligible
daring hedge
deadly flourish +% is way better than strike tbf
true fable
true
daring hedge
and 20% crit compared to 15% kinda huge
true fable
what is it, +40 at common too?
daring hedge
yeah
mossy zinc
ok bright, what is the go-to beo strat at 32
Imo you should be more concerned with attack rotations and encounter strategies than build strategies. Meaning, you'll want to understand how to efficiently deal with each enemy type whether they're alone or in groups.
One thing I did a lot early on when getting into high heat was just leaving the last enemy in any encounter alive and focusing on evading its attacks, then testing where they leave openings for me to safely attack them. Then from there it's just a lot of practice.
gaunt fiber
deadly flourish +% is way better than strike tbf
Yeah by a lot
true fable
thats a fair point
mossy zinc
That said, strong builds can certainly carry you. But you'll find more consistent success when you can still deal with enemies efficiently with a weak build or even no boons at all.
true fable
itll make you more reliable at clearing with all weapons too
gaunt fiber
And you have the piercing part too
solemn pulsar
charged skewer amps up deadly too, bc of crit
gaunt fiber
I mean that it's even more value because you hit a lot of people
daring hedge
true cgull
solemn pulsar
how did tail/hadesprof clear GY50, same build idea?
daring hedge
i got incredibly lucky with deadly flourish and charged skewer in tart
gaunt fiber
Charged skewer / quick + massive spin
daring hedge
the rest is history
true fable
I mean that it's even more value because you hit a lot of people
this doesnt actually change anything in terms of crit damage math though does it
gaunt fiber
Oh no
true fable
its not like rama where you can actually spread crit in an aoe
gaunt fiber
are you resetting for both charged and df now?
Arty start and fish for the hammer. Hammer over flourish
But arty always nice to have, lot of good boons
true fable
so what starts will you accept
gaunt fiber
PP hunter's mark, strike, flourish
true fable
just charged?
true fable
remember
gaunt fiber
AP 1 saves my mental health but the game is harder
gaunt fiber
It is
bright mango
yeah Astaos waits for the hammer if he gets deadly strike
gaunt fiber
Just have to be good at the game
Have a long way before me
But I'm so much better than two weeks ago
gaunt fiber
Yeah but I learned things
mossy zinc
Retrash thinks the Frost Fair Blade is the best spear?
gaunt fiber
Instead of playing solely by instincts and reactions
true fable
Retrash thinks the Frost Fair Blade is the best spear?
i believe he may have said this partially as a meme
but yes this was said
mossy zinc
Retrash is correct.
true fable
interesting
true fable
i wonder how high flurry achilles could go
gaunt fiber
It would be so hard to play
Like it's really easy to missplay with Achilles in any heat
But you don't really see it until it matters
true fable
but you can
solemn pulsar
Only with flurry
mossy zinc
I would put Flurry Jab per se higher than Guan Yu, but Guan Yu higher than the other spears in terms of reliability in dealing with any pact configuration.
true fable
makes sense
solemn pulsar
And you take a lot of damage on any heat flurry
I think you’d want an Athena focused build tbh
gaunt fiber
Yeah
mossy zinc
Divine Strike with Support Fire might be reasonable for dealing with DC2.
solemn pulsar
i think youd need zeus attack for the DC strip
Flurry on its own kinda strips dc
true fable
i'd be worried about divine strike damage
solemn pulsar
Maybe Athena dash then
true fable
i guess good rebuffing should be fine
bronze viper
Lol, yeah if you have Flurry Jab you could have DC4 and you'd barely notice
solemn pulsar
Flurry Achilles takes a lot of damage when ungabungaing
gaunt fiber
Just get PP and hunter's mark
solemn pulsar
Just get every boon
mossy zinc
An Epic Divine Strike should do good damage. I take Divine Strike on Malphon at high heat if it's Epic but otherwise prefer Divine Dash.
true fable
pp HM isnt the hardest combo to get
gaunt fiber
It works really well too
true fable
i take divine strike on malphon regardless but
idk
on achilles it sounds sus for some reason
mossy zinc
There are a lot of valuable attack boons on Malphon. If I don't run AP2, I see no reason to settle for a common or rare Divine Strike. Although a rare might still be fine depending on what else I have and get.
true fable
i suppose
bronze viper
I just take Deadly Strike on Achilles and assume I kill something before I die. That's... a shaky assumption a lot of the time but I have the hardest time dialing down the bunga on my unga on that aspect.
mossy zinc
I like to run JS3 CP2 DC2 TD3 on Malphon for no other reason than personal pride, and a common Divine Strike has some real difficulty keeping up with that in my experience.
true fable
i feel like malphon in general would have trouble keeping up with that
i feel like thats a pact i can only do on nem/rama and some rails
woeful musk
From what heat level do you stop getting new awards from bosses?
gaunt fiber
20 heat in normal mode
woeful musk
thank you
gaunt fiber
In hell mode you have some pacts locked it, making you start at 5 heat. So 25 for hell mode
You're welcome
unique zephyr
I did, I used it too late bc I needed to strip off damage control so I couldn’t do it immediately like normally
So i took out half its armor before summon bc I didn’t want it to miss or hit DC
gaunt fiber
You can strip the DC first and still have the same timing for the summon
Which means waiting for a teleportation
The meg/Antos will hit
You can take your time
mossy zinc
I don't think 20 seconds are any problem for TD3. You can make up a lot of time in other encounters.
solemn pulsar
If you’re thinking about companion usage, the question is will you have more than the 10 or so seconds that Meg would have saved (at least) in time save from using it on a different room
Could for EM3 heroes
But you’re probably not running out til Styx anyway
So it’s a Styx mini boss Meg vs slow sneak trade off
sullen minnow
any single time over a single room is meaningless. a slow sneak fight that sees you put straight into a chaos gate -> sisyphus will come out way ahead of a quick fight with two normal rooms after that
sullen minnow
it’s a floating number more than a single room’s value that you want to concern yourself with
gaunt fiber
I could really use 20 more seconds lol
sullen minnow
yeah, minibosses are ordinarily opportunities for a quick room
but don’t go beating yourself up if one took an extra second or two. there are much larger factors at play than any one room’s clear time
gaunt fiber
But for TD3 alone yeah no problem
green citrus
but don’t go beating yourself up if one took an extra second or two. there are m...
Every second counts when you're playing JS3 DC2 TD3, or a number of other pact combinations. But I understand your positive reasoning lol.
bright mango
I could really use 20 more seconds lol
Battie time 🙂
gaunt fiber
Who knows
unique zephyr
I did fail to roll merciful end
I was going for ME fists build
But without it it’s just ares attack which is poopy
wanton plover
ares is the best atk boon on fists even without ME
can also make a case for zoos bc of great supporting boons and call
unique zephyr
Why is ares the best attack boon I thought stand alone it was zeus
wanton plover
not considering supporting boons, ares does best dps
its close between zoos ares aph
unique zephyr
Just to make sure, doom damage doesn’t stack without dire misfortune right?
wanton plover
right
wanton plover
tru
unique zephyr
So it may actually be worth rerolling for rarity on first boon then?
honest kernel
no
unique zephyr
Usually that’s very greedy and not worth it
unique zephyr
Oh right, I was saving rolls for ME
honest kernel
It's not just ME
It's also Athena dash. Or the right Athena cores, really
It's also for an eventual Impending Doom. Hermes nice to save rolls for too ideally. ME more important
Rarity is a nice thing to have, but shouldn't be the main focus
not when the build hinges on the duo to stray from mediocrity
unique zephyr
Btw I have a video of a failed run, would it be ok for me to post it? It was a 32 dem fists, I attempted to go ME to explain boon choices
gaunt fiber
Impending without ME
unique zephyr
It was the only run I could do today before bad pain
Would it be ok to post in this channel like I did last time
I failed to get ME but not sure if I could have won with what I had (I timed out in Theseus and Asterius fight to TD3)
unique zephyr
Elysium mainly
Specifically the Theseus and asterius fight
I didn’t get asterius mini boss this time
solar maple
usually I'm happy to give advise
but I don't know how to play fists
so I'll have to sit this one out haha
edgy arrow
fists and beo are not similar
i learned this the hard way
close to enemy without block? but why?
solar maple
I know how to play sword reasonably well (other than in bosses) with fist I just have no idea what I'm doing
gaunt fiber
You have to dash pretty well
unique zephyr
This is the run. I’m also not sure if I could have finished Tartarus faster because I almost timed out in the boss fight there too
bright mango
@unique zephyr I notice that you are whiffing on a lot of your attacks
bright mango
Also try and let doom do the work on smaller enemies
Or enemies that are at low health
gaunt fiber
You wait for your enemies to spawn far away from them
solar maple
for an example look at the room at 1:45
gaunt fiber
So you move too much to get them. And you don't really stop attacking which slows you down
solar maple
you keep punching the witches until they are dead
but you can let doom finish them and move on to the next
solar maple
I'm not sure if doom did 1 damage in that entire room
bright mango
Yeah
solar maple
but I think you had enough doom damage for it to kill the witches from full health
unique zephyr
So that’s what I was missing when people said doom was strong
solar maple
so you can just punch twice and dash to the next
unique zephyr
Ah ok, so just tag with doom and let it hit basically?
bright mango
Yep
On smaller enemies and when they dont have much health left
Also try not to whiff as much
That costs a lot of time as well
gaunt fiber
For your heroes : your movement is a bit erratic. Sometimes you're scared when you're safe, sometimes the opposite. You took many bombs from Theseus. You'll have to learn Asterius recovery to dps optimally. You dash strike a lot. All the time. With divine dash it's "fine" but you'll take unecessary damage by doing so
gaunt fiber
Your meg was not good but it's just because you don't know how to use it at heroes : simply walk upwards (like one short input) and meg instantly so you get both of them. While Meg circles are appearing, strips the DC hearts
bright mango
Also meg misses at that fight if you do it too early
It happened a bunch to me before
unique zephyr
Did you have merciul end?
No i failed to get it
bright mango
No i failed to get it
Ok
Well if you get merciful end there is literally no need to worry about the timer
I recommend watching speedruns to see how to use them quickly
Ananke has the wr rn for dem fists
solar maple
yeah that will show when to tag enemies to go faster
gaunt fiber
I feel like hyper sprint does not help you, you're running a lot
You need to play more EM3 to learn the cues for Asterius attacks, especially the spin which you failed to see
and at melee range it's deadly
To sum up : you're doing too many things, you don't need to dash strike that much, to attack that much. Observe bosses more (I watched a bit of Lernie, you kinda brute forced it) to learn when to go in. Don't forget to just empty dash sometimes, to cancel the fist combo
bright mango
But without ME I can understand why you shouldn't
Also Astaos what time is it for you?
Seems really late
bright mango
"a bit"
gaunt fiber
50% hp = 50% sleep
bright mango
gaunt fiber
Hope I helped mr Bacchus
edgy arrow
i think the reason you’re whiffing attacks a lot is mostly how many dashes you’re using
honest kernel
A lot of what Astaos said can be summed up to "Move around and attack with intent"
edgy arrow
you’re very often using two dashes where one would be enough, leaving you in random places further away than was necessary
bright mango
It helped me get better with ME
solar maple
at 19:06 you took aphro call
gaunt fiber
the aphro call pick did interfere with ME indeed
solar maple
just know when you do that you ~halve your chance of finding ME in the rest of elysium
edgy arrow
seems like you’ve fallen into a habit of using both of your dashes instead of one to cancel your sequence cooldown
bright mango
just know when you do that you ~halve your chance of finding ME in the rest of e...
How?
gaunt fiber
Parting shot
solar maple
the game rolls for duos, then decides which one you get
having more available does not increase you chance of finding one
it just rolls between the available ones
unique zephyr
I feel like hyper sprint does not help you, you're running a lot
Wait when is hyper sprint helpful and how do people use it?
solar maple
hyper sprint is good
gaunt fiber
Oh I mean it's super useful
bronze viper
Okay, so yeah, this Zag bow strat def legit. My rate for Asphodel/Elysium is totally satisfactory, more gitting of the gud must be obtained.
solar maple
even on its own it's the 2nd best hermes boon to get
honest kernel
Hyper Sprint is mobility and defense combined. Rush Delivery makes Hyper Sprint an absolute powerhouse of a damage booster
gaunt fiber
But you're just using it to move a bit everywhere, hoping not to get hit
edgy arrow
also you rerolled on hyper tartarus end shop
guess you were looking for more dashes
idk what a speedrunner would do, i would’ve just taken hyper
unique zephyr
I was looking for more dashes
solar maple
rolls are precious, and hyper is very good
unique zephyr
What did you mean by I run a lot
Am I not supposed to just run with the rush speed boost
bright mango
more dashes are really not necessary aside from a few weapons
tidal flame
bright mango
yep just saw it
solar maple
I would say you have to get more deliberate in your movement
bright mango
very epic
tidal flame
What the heck xD
solar maple
but that comes mostly from practice
bright mango
Lol
tidal flame
;)
bronze viper
Take a screenshot in 21 minutes
gaunt fiber
Sure thing. But since you tend to dash needlessly, you end up running in circles (heroes fight). This makes you lose time instead of approaching Asterius or dodging an attack @unique zephyr
bright mango
So with asterius what you want to do is once he whiffs, go all ham on him and then back off
Rinse and repeat
solar maple
an example of needing more deliberate movement is 20:46
unique zephyr
Sure thing. But since you tend to dash needlessly, you end up running in circles...
Ah, ok. I only recently started taking rush delivery, I didn’t know it was a good boon until recently
solar maple
you dash around and punch the air like 10 times
bright mango
its a very good boon
They named an entire tournament after the rush delivery + hyper sprint combo
solar maple
RD is the highest damage boost boon in the game in general
the strongest offensive boon imo. Only splitting bolt is close
and maybe ME
solar maple
I hate ME
but yes lmao
or maybe not actually
splitting does a lot of damage
and can be put on eris
edgy arrow
ME's gotta be more than splitting
mossy zinc
@unique zephyr I see you chose to do FO2 EM3 with Malphon against my recommendations, and then lost your run in that fight. That's not very surprising.
solar maple
edgy arrow
ME scales way more
bright mango
<@!266732686838595606> I see you chose to do FO2 EM3 with Malphon against my rec...
He wanted to practice FO2
mossy zinc
You can do FO2 on Malphon at 32 without EM3.
edgy arrow
doom is pomable, impending is pomable, and dashes effectively become a multiplicative damage buff
unique zephyr
I actually meant to do EM2 and didn’t realize it
edgy arrow
splitting is static
light stag
RD is the highest damage boost boon in the game in general
Only if you also have HyperSprint
solar maple
well yeah
mossy zinc
I think you'll find if you make some modifications to the pact to exclude EM3, you will do just fine.
mossy zinc
EM2 FO2 is perfectly fine, yes, as you have already noticed.
solemn pulsar
ME scales with dashes and impending doom
splitting bolt can proc a maximum of once per 0.2 seconds from a source
edgy arrow
^
light stag
Did you get dire misfortune?
bright mango
Thats 200 dps per second at max👀
solemn pulsar
^that's not counting the lightning damage you're already doing
bright mango
True
light stag
Because without it doom is kinda useless on a fast attack
solemn pulsar
splitting bolt is kinda like impending doom in that it's a flat buff on the lightning damage
bright mango
^^^
edgy arrow
unless you're doing arthur ME pro strats or something
i wonder if anyone's done that
probably
bright mango
Because you doom will be gone in one second if ur using ME right
unique zephyr
For weapons I can’t do TD3 with can I still avoid EM3
light stag
If you run Doom on Chiron bow special it might do something
edgy arrow
sure lol
light stag
but you can't rely on getting ME
mossy zinc
I also see that you don't have a Cast despite going for a Merciful End build. Having Curse of Agony + any Cast boon going into Asphodel will guarantee that Lady Athena will offer you either Divine Flourish or Divine Dash on the first boon you see from her after that and the other one on the second—a 10% chance for seeing an exchange instead not withstanding.
edgy arrow
but that would require running doom on chiron
unique zephyr
I also see that you don't have a Cast despite going for a Merciful End build. Ha...
Is this because of how priority boons work?
I didn’t think of priority slots
mossy zinc
Keeping your Cast boon once you have Curse of Agony, Divine Flourish, and Divine Dash will also greatly improve your chances of seeing Merciful End.
Yes.
bright mango
Well thats kinda the whole 'fill in your core boons strat'
But it can work to some extent
light stag
Doom with Dire misfortune on Chiron is not bad
bright mango
I guess lol
mossy zinc
Priority boons. Call is a core boon, but it is irrelevant.
light stag
a common DM is already +100%
bright mango
How so?
edgy arrow
Keeping your Cast boon once you have Curse of Agony, Divine Flourish, and Divine...
to be fair he had flood shot out of tartarus but UC took it from him
bright mango
Dire misfortune is where it stacks
solar maple
filling core can open up other duos so it ends up not really helping ME chances
unique zephyr
to be fair he had flood shot out of tartarus but UC took it from him
That’s why I picked flood shot to fill cast slot
But I forgot about that the rest of the run
solar maple
zeus cast specifically does help, because it doesn't open up duos with either god
so look out for that
so long as you don't have a revenge boon
bright mango
Also zeus cast is good
solar maple
also true
bright mango
With jolted and stuff
unique zephyr
Is EM3 FO2 only bad with melee weapons specifically
bright mango
Sorta
light stag
filling in a slot is not usually not as good as taking something useful when there is an alternative
bright mango
But at 32 as long as you kill the enemies quickly it shouldn't be a problem
unique zephyr
Like it’s fine for zeus shield and any bow right?
solar maple
true, but as a first zeus boon cast isn't bad
if you can win the fight it's not bad
it's a challenging fight, but if you learn it it's fine
bright mango
32 fists tbh was not too bad with merciful end
mossy zinc
Any Duo Boons you end up getting instead of ME add a lot of value regardless. Selling any Duo Boon is about 1.5x a boon from the shop.
light stag
It was way easier on Zeus shield than fists
unique zephyr
But at 32 as long as you kill the enemies quickly it shouldn't be a problem
This is my issue
solar maple
eh the poseidon duos are very mediocre
unique zephyr
Or one of them at least
bright mango
K i l l t h e m q u i c k
solar maple
for something like arty where it only opens up 1 (good) duo I like it
light stag
I used to think that fists were the fastest possible weapons but Zeus shield ended up being way faster
unique zephyr
Fists are my fastest weapon by far
solar maple
fists are my slowest weapon haha
bright mango
Fists are my 3rd fastest
unique zephyr
I have only gotten sub 20 with fists, bow, and rail
bright mango
But I havent put any effort into the other three
solar maple
I have a ton attempts on them because I was trying to sub 9 every weapon. Fists took at least 3x as long as any of the others
unique zephyr
I used to think that fists were the fastest possible weapons but Zeus shield end...
How do you make zeus shield fast
solar maple
but I did miss 9 2 sacks in a row on fists tbf
edgy arrow
lol, so when you say you're slow with fists you just mean you can only sub 9
speedrunners smh
shy plinth
Zeus shield does a ton of damage
mossy zinc
If you follow the tips I saw people give you about not whiffing your attacks etc., you should do a lot better.
Any attack that you whiff wastes more time than taking an extra moment to better aim your attack would have cost you.
edgy arrow
How do you make zeus shield fast
oh i know this one! be Baj
light stag
Mainly by doing way more damage than with fists
shy plinth
Though zeus shield is also very micro heavy
Getting that blitz disc positioning exactly right is really precise and takes a lot of practice
But once you get it, it's super strong
unique zephyr
If you follow the tips I saw people give you about not whiffing your attacks etc...
I’ll make sure my attacks hit in general then
edgy arrow
zeus shield is maybe the most micro heavy weapon
actually idk if that's really measurable
unique zephyr
Would adding hard labor to cover heat lost from EM3 to EM2 be fine
I can’t think of much else
That isn’t AP or RI
mossy zinc
AP on Malphon isn't a big issue.
bright mango
solemn pulsar
i mean it is if you want ME
edgy arrow
it is if he's going for ME
mossy zinc
Thinking you need ME is more the issue. You should do just fine whether you get ME or not.
edgy arrow
yeah you can also go FO0
unique zephyr
What makes AP not as big of an issue on a weapon?
mossy zinc
Hammer reliance, primarily.
edgy arrow
and secondarily how many boons it wants
so like, hestia good with AP, beo bad with AP
light stag
Isn't Lighting Strike better on fists?
edgy arrow
even tho beo isn't hammer reliant
lightning strike and doom are pretty comparable in dps afaik
wintry berry
Lightning strike on fists is less rng reliant
edgy arrow
but doom takes the cake if you get ME
light stag
I mean ME is better but with 32 heat it not guaranteed
mossy zinc
Lightning Strike and Curse of Agony should be very comparable in DPS, yes.
bright mango
I mean ME is better but with 32 heat it not guaranteed
With a few resets its very easy to get
All you need is a nat. athena and boom easy clear
light stag
nat?
mossy zinc
They have similar single-target DPS if you go all-out, but Doom would pull ahead the more downtime you have between attacks.
wanton plover
natural
edgy arrow
I mean ME is better but with 32 heat it not guaranteed
you don't need to take RI/CF/AP, so its not that bad
wanton plover
without forcing
edgy arrow
i prefer lightning strike, but that's just cause playing ME makes me feel bad lol
edgy arrow
no smouldering makes me feel good
wanton plover
me too
light stag
But doom without Dire Misfortune or ME just fizzles out at later biomes
mossy zinc
In order to optimize DPS, Lightning Strike requires you to keep attacking enemies (ideally in groups) until they're dead while Curse of Agony requires that you spread Doom as much as possible and only attack enough for Doom to be able to finish off enemies.
wanton plover
But doom without Dire Misfortune or ME just fizzles out at later biomes
you can say the same for zoos. without supporting boons itll feel bad
unique zephyr
Is this a good EM2 32 pact for fists:
LC4
CF2
EM2
BP2 (the main change, it was BP1)
MM
UC
FO2
DC2
TD3
mossy zinc
You should be fine with either one for 32 and no Duo Boons or Legendaries or anything, anyway. If you time out, it's not your build.
gaunt fiber
I would still avoid DC2
unique zephyr
OK that's good to know that if I time out it's something I can fix always
avoid DC2 on fists?
is it because of savior?
bright mango
I would still avoid DC2
heh?
light stag
Zeus just has alot more support boons which will make it better
gaunt fiber
Yeah
mossy zinc
I'd take HL2 over DC2, but I think both are fine.
light stag
savior?
edgy arrow
i think DC2 is probably easier while you're still learning FO2
bright mango
I'd take HL5 over DC2 and BP2
wanton plover
the bp perk
bright mango
Bp2 + Fo2 is terrible
light stag
DC is not that bad on fists
bright mango
Speeder + Fo2
gaunt fiber
DC2 is doable yeah for sure
light stag
the attack is fast
gaunt fiber
But it still slows you down