if so that's fine
#h1-high-heat-strategies
unique zephyr
solar maple
edgy arrow
okay died to tisiphone
it’s possible to beat tisiphone tho
asphodel would be the end tho
unique zephyr
I died in Elysium
and it was a bad run, hopefully it'll be useful
don't make fun of me too hard lol
Even though I watch good rama play I can't match it at all oh well
I'll record a second one too but yeah
Video is uploading now
it'll upload in like 4 mins
Trying to win 32 heat in Hades is humbling, I feel like my only 32 win was a fluke :/
What's keeping me going is that the 40+ heat people have been in my shoes once too
I'm venting about me being bad but I do want to maybe be good enough to streak 32 or something
@solar maple you told me to ping you
warning: very bad play
Not sure if I should have disabled comments or not, I'm not familiar with youtube
celest grail
havent watched the full run yet, but just judging from early tartarus i feel like you're powershotting too much
unique zephyr
how do I know when to power shot
celest grail
like you kept getting hit in the sneak fight because you were trying to aim a powershot at em
when the enemy has a big health bar
unique zephyr
i was told to practice power shotting to "avoid bad habits"
celest grail
that is true
it makes you learn the timing
but dont powershot all the time
most enemies will die with a non-powershot, especially in tartarus
unique zephyr
so should I have targeted the wringer while the sneak was tagged?
or would the sneak have died in like a couple non power shot hits
celest grail
the latter
unique zephyr
i think I may be underestimating non power shot hits
i'm still learning rama
i didn't think non power shot would 2HKO sneak
but that would make sense
so when should I power shot
celest grail
also you can just let go of the attack button if you feel like youre gonna get hit
safety is important when doing higher heats
unique zephyr
oh right I was locked in place power shotting
better to miss and avoid damage
then try to hit and get hit
this may seem obvious to you but I'm learning a lot 🙂
I noticed that I was chasing down enemies, do enemies spawn in consistent locations based on rooms
or no
sand drum
I think its based on where you're standing in the room
unless you're dashing across the room while they spawn i don't think they'll ususlly appear that far off your screen
unique zephyr
i think I am a bit too dash happy
about dash attacks, do the dash i frames end right when I press attack
or even before that
does anyone else get tilted after failing a lot? I know it's objectively my own fault
i need to not get tilted somehow
Are my pacts okay
the ones I chose in the beginning
if not any feedback on the pacts
sullen minnow
Power shots are essential when it’s time to really put something on its ass
celest grail
about dash attacks, do the dash i frames end right when I press attack
iirc dash attacks do not give iframes
sullen minnow
But Rama is quite powerful by itself. Not alwaaaaays mandatory
Especially with certain hammers
celest grail
does anyone else get tilted after failing a lot? I know it's objectively my own ...
lol happens to me all the time, i usually just chill by taking a break or playing low heat
sullen minnow
iirc dash attacks do not give iframes
Someone explained to me that your iframes end the moment your dash becomes your dash attack, and that’s the difference maker
celest grail
plus, after grinding 32 ive realized my speedrun times are much better
since ive learned enemy patterns
celest grail
Someone explained to me that your iframes end the moment your dash becomes your ...
huh, interesting
sullen minnow
Yeah I had a specific question about when that switch flipped and that’s what I was told
It’s a 1337 player tech to manipulate those two to maximize safety
ESP with sword apparently
@unique zephyr idle suggestion, but at 32 if you can hack TD3, FO2 is going to save you a lot of heartache trying to make that heat up elsewhere
Also hit up BP2 for sure
I would invest heavily in CF and even 2 stacks of JS to get away from that damage
Maybe even some DC
You’d be surprised how versatile Rama is and how much it can handle. If you’re using shared suffering right, extra enemies in rooms aren’t going to be much of a problem. Your main concern is time at that point tbh, but that’s where Rama’s blessed kit shall carry you through with its huge damage
Only specific for FO2 EM3 is you neeeed something from Hermès to help with Asterius
bright mango
DC is fine but dc2 is just incredibly annoying
sullen minnow
Otherwise he is a nightmare if you don’t have enough mobility
bright mango
You can still avoid him without hermes boons
sullen minnow
You can, but boy I prioritize it for him alone
sand drum
does anyone else get tilted after failing a lot? I know it's objectively my own ...
oh man I get so tilted so easily
I was scared to start a game about dying over and over but look where we are now pff
sullen minnow
Lol you just gotta get through the first few
sand drum
I had heard hades was good but then I heard it was about failing a lot and was so very hesitant
I am not the type to take losses lightly
sullen minnow
Lol my previous roguelike to this was Gungeon so this game is a blessed salve with its difficulty curve
You’re actually kind of supposed to win this game eventually lol
spice lava
First losses are tilting, then they are just tears on the ocean
mossy zinc
If you want to just beat 32 Heat, you should skip FO2 entirely from what I've seen. You play very hectic and reckless. You keep holding down Special when a Longspear is already right on top of you instead of marking them with your Special once, dashing out of the way, and placing as well as timing your Powershots safely from there on.
sullen minnow
^^^^^ she has spoken
mossy zinc
There's no point in holding down your Special. You only need to mark your targets once.
The only times you want to hit enemies with your Special more than once is to finish them off quickly if they like a pixel of HP after an Attack or if it's e.g. a group of Numbskulls that you can just kill very quickly with your Special alone.
Your #1 goal should be to not take damage and study enemy behavior to figure out good moments to place a Power-Shot.
neat sonnet
this is great advice for lots of folks, me included
sullen minnow
Your #1 goal should be to not take damage and study enemy behavior to figure out...
How To Bow, in a sentence
mossy zinc
Speed comes from how well you can execute things after that, not from playing reckless and just trying to hit things without respecting their attacks.
spice lava
Yeah if you do a powershot and take damages in return then it's not a good one
sullen minnow
Any exchange of damage at 32 is a bad one really
An exchange is a loss for you, period
Especially if LC4 is involved
Just don’t get hit brah 😉
neat sonnet
I know schad's pinned message has guidelines, but does anyone have a sample pact at 32 for chiron / guan yu? I know they're quite different aspects, but I want to build my way up point by point for each and don't really know where to start.
mossy zinc
I also recommend you take Lucky Tooth into Elysium if you don't have a DD from Lady Athena.
Nyaanyaa's 32 Heat Guide
HL5 LC4 CF2 EM3 BP2 MM UC TD3
Stubborn Defiance
Eternal Rose > Owl Pendant > Lucky Tooth/Acorn > Acorn
There. 
I'd take that for both.
neat sonnet
dope, thank you nyaanyaa!
mossy zinc
Chiron wants Heartbreak Strike into either Drunken Flourish or Deadly Flourish, but a lot of things can work on Special at 32. Getting Divine Dash and DDs from Lady Athena in Asphodel will be huge for safety, hence the Owl Pendant there.
For Guan Yu, you take the higher rarity one out of Heartbreak Strike and Heartbreak Flourish, then try to get Charged Skewer or Quick Spin.
And ideally the other one out of Deadly Strike or Deadly Flourish for Heart Rend.
Zeus' Aid + Smoldering Air is also great.
neat sonnet
okay, that sounds like a pretty solid strat! I can't wait to get to practice, cause high heat is a really cool challenge to me
gaunt fiber
Deadly strike Guan Yu is really fun in a spin build
neat sonnet
oo
gaunt fiber
And strong
neat sonnet
and I'm assuming the typical places to spend rolls are if I see none of these strong options
I'm assuming between the two charged skewer is like.. overwhelmingly powerful but I've had fun with quick spin too
neat sonnet
definitely agree, I feel like GY is just.. so strong sometimes
which is of course the reason for the hp balance
gaunt fiber
Sometimes it feels like Zag Sword
And you have to deal damage by any means
Like call, support fire shenanigans, jolted, rupture etc
neat sonnet
yeah
there's two sides to the coin for sure
and I feel like I actively unga bunga less on GY even though that has been my playstyle in many games for a LOOONG time
unique zephyr
<@266732686838595606> idle suggestion, but at 32 if you can hack TD3, FO2 is goi...
I’m going to practice FO2 more. I only cleared twice with FO2 practicing with BP2, MM, and EM3
Hope I can get that more consistent with more grinding
Because FO2 would be really nice if I don’t get hit as often so I can skip out on TD3 for now
unique zephyr
Your #1 goal should be to not take damage and study enemy behavior to figure out...
I’ll do some more timerless runs and just watch the enemies
bright mango
Fo2+ td3 actually work really well together
unique zephyr
I may turn off benefits package to practice at first
What makes you say that?
About them working together
gaunt fiber
Well FO2 makes the game faster
bright mango
^^^
unique zephyr
The ideal time to hit is during the enemy recovery animation btw right?
gaunt fiber
The ideal time to hit is during the enemy recovery animation btw right?
With any charged attack I would bait a group of enemies and powershot everyone when on recovery yeah
bright mango
^^^
mossy zinc
Keep in mind that to hit them during their recovery, you often need to start charging your Attack as they start their own Attack. Otherwise, they'll recover before you can get a shot off.
I'd recommend doing at least TD2 if you're gonna practice no-hitting.
You might lose a few runs like that, but it will show you when you're wasting too much and need to maybe figure out a way to be more aggressive.
sullen minnow
I’m going to practice FO2 more. I only cleared twice with FO2 practicing with BP...
It’s tough, but it really, really is worth it. I promise you
It will do one thing that almost none of the other pacts do nearly as directly, and that is make you a better, more nimble player
gaunt fiber
Bacchus since you can't play that much I'd recommend to play at the highest difficulty available for you
runs will be quick
sullen minnow
But prepare to be roflstomped by the increased clock the first couple times through
gaunt fiber
but you'll learn a lot
mossy zinc
@gaunt fiber nice name, by the way.
bright mango
mossy zinc
Finally someone who isn't a casual.
bright mango
Are you a casual?
gaunt fiber
Thank you for very much, Queen of Hades.
sullen minnow
Damned trash stinking up the server
bright mango
Hmhmhjhm
spice lava
Astaos was miserable on Hades... Until he found out the true hidden aspect of the spear
mossy zinc
Damned trash stinking up the server
Mods, please 
.
spice lava
Now he's imperdable
sullen minnow
We could use a good pogrom around here 😜
gaunt fiber
Imperdable.
bright mango
[imperdable]
is 50%
mossy zinc
It's not English lol.
gaunt fiber
Indeed
gaunt fiber
It's state of mind
spice lava
He's not english neither
bright mango
He’s french/spanish
gaunt fiber
@true fable @thick lark @plush scaffold @spice lava @lusty mirage can explain
.
gaunt fiber
My spanish is top tier
bright mango
We Americans have to step up our game
gaunt fiber
He just downloaded a dictionary.
Hey
mossy zinc
Hey.
quartz mantle
What's going on
gaunt fiber
This was supposed to be a vehement protest
bright mango
Astaos = 🤖
spice lava
Astabot you mean?
mossy zinc
His name is Astaos.
Astaos | Hardcore Guan Yu Player.
That's his name.
The | is silent.
gaunt fiber
It's silent indeed, thanks for reminding everyone
mossy zinc
The H is also silent because he's French.
gaunt fiber
So many people pronounce it
gaunt fiber
The H is also silent because he's French.
Trying my best but it's tough
bright mango
‘Ardcore guan oo player
sullen minnow
Gwayn eauu
Astaos that’s awesome where in France do you live
My cousin lives somewhere in the alps as a hippie mountain guide
I want to visit him someday
mossy zinc
Aurash trying to doxx people.
sullen minnow
Nah it’s just one of the reasons I actually enjoy discord
bright mango
Lmao
sullen minnow
You really do meet people from damned everywhere
sullen minnow
Y’all would never guess where one of the players I’ve talked to here is from. It’s a true global experience ❤️
mossy zinc
"Before I can give you tips for 32 Heat, tell me your social security number."—@sullen minnow, 2021
unique zephyr
It’s tough, but it really, really is worth it. I promise you
I will do it then. I felt like I was getting better slowly, I only cleared twice with FO2 I want to get more consistent with it
gaunt fiber
Oh yeah
unique zephyr
I do find myself enjoying having my reactions tested more
thick lark
Someone say "imperdable"?
gaunt fiber
Lord BSK is approaching
unique zephyr
In a strange way
celest grail
ive met people from every continent on discord tbh, its pretty insane
well, except africa and antartica
unique zephyr
Although EM3 Asterius on FO2 feels impossible to dodge
His charge move
Do I just lead him into a pillar
unique zephyr
Oh yeah he goes around the pillar
unique zephyr
That is what kills me a decent amount in FO2 runs
mossy zinc
Patrollin', trying to catch me ridin' dirty.
honest kernel
unique zephyr
Mini boss or boss
What do you mean by inconsistent attack
It does feel like what worked one time doesn’t always do so
gaunt fiber
and will go hyperdrift to end your miserable life
bright mango
Patrollin', trying to catch me ridin' dirty. <:dusa:522248771409543188>
Nyaanyaa location confirmed
unique zephyr
I did manage to beat Dad without losing an SD the two times I beat him
So I can dodge dad
Decently well at FO2
gaunt fiber
Yeah Dad is fair
unique zephyr
Makes sense. Thing is it if go to EM2 I need to make up the heat elsewhere
gaunt fiber
Embrace TD3
bright mango
m in da club.
Hoy pardner
unique zephyr
I feel like when I go faster I start dying more
bright mango
Ridin down in da south
gaunt fiber
You'll go faster as you understand your aspect. Along with the pausing thing, taking free rooms etc
unique zephyr
I want to be good at a variety of aspects, that all takes time. Would you agree with who said learning FO2 is worth it in the long run?
unique zephyr
...I think I’ll do EM2 and see
Because it’s really asterius that’s the main problem
And some benefits package combos
gaunt fiber
The first time I got into Asterius FO2
wintry berry
You can also have a save file for practice
bright mango
At 40 having and being good at fo2 is amazing
unique zephyr
But asterius is harder to deal with
gaunt fiber
I cried in this channel, not gonna lie
mossy zinc
Ridin down in da south
That's 50 Cent. He's from NYC.
bright mango
Baj?
gaunt fiber
This is why I really enjoy Acorn for Elysium
bright mango
Same
gaunt fiber
yeah
unique zephyr
And mini boss arena is smaller
gaunt fiber
Pray not to get him :)
gaunt fiber
I struggle vs Asterius as a miniboss, much better in the final fight
gaunt fiber
Oh wow
unique zephyr
I’m trying
gaunt fiber
I did not see it coming
unique zephyr
It is good that I recognize the problem now
I didn’t realize till a bit ago that asterius specifically was a problem
For FO2
bright mango
I struggle vs Asterius as a miniboss, much better in the final fight
Yeah same
bright mango
In the actual fight i have the acorn to soak up Vicky chonky damage
unique zephyr
Dying Hyper speed asterius is hilarious sometimes though
In a laugh to not cry way
pseudo girder
Yeah, Acorn should be what's packed during Elysium
unique zephyr
Just getting chonked
The only reason I considered skull was because of asterius mini boss
Tbh
mossy zinc
Lucky Tooth is the go-to for Elysium at high heat at this point unless you already have DDs, and even then sometimes.
gaunt fiber
To me the tooth helps more for the rooms than miniboss
mossy zinc
Both can be a problem.
mossy zinc
And by the time you get to the boss, there's a chance you already have Touch of Styx Dark anyway.
It heals Guan Yu back to 100 HP at least, so that's nice.
mossy zinc
Just get Heroic Life Affirmation.
sullen minnow
I didn’t realize till a bit ago that asterius specifically was a problem
Yeah this is what I meant when I said EM3 FO2 demands some kind of Hermès
mossy zinc
You can do the fight without, but it's difficult.
sullen minnow
Or very good dodge skill
gaunt fiber
Aphrodites really likes to offer me crush shot
gaunt fiber
But usually she's offering me good stuff
mossy zinc
Then you should take it and be grateful.
unique zephyr
But yeah I’m interested in going faster
sullen minnow
I mean dodge skill in the “player skill” sense
unique zephyr
To make TD3
sullen minnow
You can do anything, it’s up to you
unique zephyr
Since I want to be more efficient
In my play
But I’m not sure how, is it just practice
sullen minnow
You’re on the right thinking track @unique zephyr
gaunt fiber
Crush shot is fine but not so useful with shackle
sullen minnow
Td3 and FO2 are inherently complimentary if you can tolerate the latter
bright mango
I wish i could make a save file to practice the hades fight
gaunt fiber
well you can
unique zephyr
Td3 and FO2 are inherently complimentary if you can tolerate the latter
How specifically? Besides increased spawn time
gaunt fiber
without any mod
sullen minnow
How specifically? Besides increased spawn time
Spawn and enemy speed
bright mango
I really need to learn how to better i frame his attacks
unique zephyr
Someone should pin a saving tutorial
bright mango
without any mod
On switch?
unique zephyr
For practicing
gaunt fiber
well
sullen minnow
An enemy that approaches you faster is theoretically one that you kill faster
unique zephyr
I have PC
sullen minnow
Ah switch rip
gaunt fiber
Goodbye switch player
bright mango
Lmao that’s what i was saying
sullen minnow
I’m in your boat too pengy
bright mango
I wish i could do that
unique zephyr
So I can do the method if it’s PC only
sullen minnow
I feel your pain
bright mango
I can’t even record
sullen minnow
It’s why I got it for pc
bright mango
Uhhhghuhuh
gaunt fiber
But there's cross save now
sullen minnow
Just for the extra credit
unique zephyr
An enemy that approaches you faster is theoretically one that you kill faster
Sometimes it feels like asphodel enemies run away from me
gaunt fiber
but yeah does not matter in your case
mossy zinc
Faster enemies can also mean less time to do Power Shots. FO2 is not always necessarily faster. Top speedrunners don't always take FO2.
unique zephyr
Specifically the ones that shoot waves
sullen minnow
Sometimes it feels like asphodel enemies run away from me
Honestly yeah that is a legit drawback
You’ve got me there
gaunt fiber
Faster enemies can also mean less time to do Power Shots. FO2 is not always nece...
Because they're afraid
sullen minnow
Certain things start to suck with FO2
unique zephyr
Honestly yeah that is a legit drawback
I mentioned that because it takes away so much time for me
sullen minnow
But goku isn’t goku because he trained without his weights on
unique zephyr
I hope I don’t sound whiny I’m not I want to git gud
gaunt fiber
They called me mad because I was running high confidence FO2 Guan Yu
unique zephyr
I appreciate the pointers
mossy zinc
FO2 on Rama is not gonna make things faster at all if you're not used to the aspect, quite the opposite.
sullen minnow
Fair
mossy zinc
You'll just end up getting stunned out of all your Power Shots.
sullen minnow
Anything that impedes your efficiency with a weapon will slow you down by definition
solemn pulsar
They called me mad because I was running high confidence FO2 Guan Yu
Yes
unique zephyr
I want to do 32 for each weapon (one aspect of each). Is Poseidon sword okay with FO2
And or TD3
sullen minnow
You'll just end up getting stunned out of all your Power Shots.
I like hyper sprint Rama because I can be a bad player and still power shot 🙃
unique zephyr
I think I’ll FO1 while I’m getting used to Rama
And suck up TD3
Maybe?
I actually don’t know what to adjust pact wise or if I need to
sullen minnow
FO1 is still def doable
But what Astaos said
Honestly though long term you will develop flexibility as a player like that
Where you will be able to adapt and switch your timing gears up on the fly
unique zephyr
Question: if I learn FO2 timings then if I go down in FO will that mess those up too
sullen minnow
So its maybe not the worst thing if it’s what’s going to help you right now
gaunt fiber
It will be easier
sullen minnow
For long term advice see what I just said
unique zephyr
I never thought I’d be even this good
sullen minnow
you will have to relearn timings
gaunt fiber
But I remember taking a hit from Hades at FO0 because he was just too slow
sullen minnow
But you will ultimately have to learn and unlearn and relearn everything you know as a player 1000 times in this game to be great
unique zephyr
How do I develop the ability to have flexibiltity
mossy zinc
If you want to practice your speed and learn enemy behavior with Rama, take EM2 FO0 TD3 and go for consistent sub 15 no matter how many tunnels you get. That's a good pace.
bright mango
But I remember taking a hit from Hades at FO0 because he was just too slow
First world problems
sullen minnow
And that’s a kind of muscle memory you will naturally begin to develop with experience over time
So don’t worry yourself too hard on it
gaunt fiber
How do I develop the ability to have flexibiltity
Intense gaming
unique zephyr
If you want to practice your speed and learn enemy behavior with Rama, take EM2 ...
I have never gone sub 15 ever not even no heat
So I will need a lot of help and stuff to work on
sullen minnow
Go die. Then die again. Die 1000 more times and you will change and grow as a player
You may not notice it, but one day you will get back up from being knocked on your ass without even realizing it and you will have improved yourself that day
That’s what Gitting Gud means
gaunt fiber
You'll hit a wall at some point though
and then you'll have to think about your playstyle
solemn pulsar
A wall named 50 heat guan yu
sullen minnow
True, it’s important to challenge yourself and keep trying to reinvent what you think is right
That’s where and how you learn flexibility as a player
gaunt fiber
Please cgull 
solemn pulsar
Practice doesn’t make perfect. Good practice makes perfect
sullen minnow
When the things that worked for you before are taken away and you have to adapt to your new situation
rain sedge
how do you create practice saves btw? I want to practice chariots and greatshields
gaunt fiber
Congrats Schad
Get to Hades, copy your Profile1_Temp.sav, make a second or third profile or whatever, overwrite Profile2.sav with the temp save from your first profile.
Credits to Nyaanyaa
sullen minnow
Practice doesn’t make perfect. Good practice makes perfect
This is actual professional level advice for free
unique zephyr
Practice doesn’t make perfect. Good practice makes perfect
Yes, that’s why I’m asking how to do good practice
Which is why I’m making sure I’m practicing the right things
I hope I’m approaching this right
solemn pulsar
Asking questions of yourself is the easiest way
unique zephyr
Mindset wise
solemn pulsar
Why did I get hit there
sullen minnow
In a phrase, “challenge yourself, and what you think is right”
solemn pulsar
Also watching others
unique zephyr
If I feel pushed that’s a good thing then
gaunt fiber
Why did I get hit there
because dracons
unique zephyr
I do like that feeling
gaunt fiber
Oh btw
sullen minnow
muscles don’t grow from not being used
solemn pulsar
Pretty much all of my play style is lifted from watching other players
gaunt fiber
How do you people evade the barrage from Lernie
solemn pulsar
Dash
gaunt fiber
No I mean every projectile
honest kernel
Get behind that 'lil hydra
solemn pulsar
I lost like 50 HP in 2 seconds to drakons on an any heat run last night. Idk why my shield didn’t proc
honest kernel
It won't turn around fast
solemn pulsar
They were spaced out perfectly
gaunt fiber
Thanks Baj
solemn pulsar
I guess
gaunt fiber
Usually I can iframe half of it and then I somehow hide
unique zephyr
It’s funny how dracons and wave makers go from a joke to terrifying all because of forced overtime
gaunt fiber
Speeder wavemakers :)
honest kernel
Well, being on 20-30 ish HP makes them a lot worse
unique zephyr
Like legitimately funny
honest kernel
can't just shrug 'em off
rain sedge
Thanks astaos
gaunt fiber
Speeder slamdancers are funny too
honest kernel
Instant-transmission Elysium greatswords will always be a mystery to me
rain sedge
@unique zephyr about practice, there's this thing called active learning (vs passive learning)
maybe astaos can tell you about it since I spent 50 messages talking to him about it
gaunt fiber
The teleporting BP is a mystery for me. Sometimes mobs are geniuses, sometimes they just crash into a wall or something
mossy zinc
I have never gone sub 15 ever not even no heat
This is the current any heat WR. Notice how they use the Special very sparingly just to tag something quickly for Shared Suffering, then Attack something else (the enemies that are marked will take damage anyway) or just quickly finish them off with an Attack, and often they don't bother applying Shared Suffering at all when it's not necessary.
unique zephyr
maybe astaos can tell you about it since I spent 50 messages talking to him abou...
Not sure if that’s a joke or not
gaunt fiber
The fight will be easier with deflect. My strategy is to crush them as soon as possible because if the fights takes too long, it only gets worse
unique zephyr
This is the current any heat WR. Notice how they use the Special very sparingly ...
What is “this” referring to
In your sentence
gaunt fiber
So I gladly sacrifice my SD to deal damage
unique zephyr
I don’t see a link or anything
unique zephyr
<@!266732686838595606> about practice, there's this thing called active learning...
I think I get it kind of, making videos helps with that and lately I’ve been actually replaying rooms of other youtube heat videos
And analyzing how someone dodged it or got the power shot off
unique zephyr
https://youtu.be/jrFkOLrqrvo
Thanks!
mossy zinc
Also they clear most chambers right where they can see all exits and dash there with 1-2 dashes, hit pause immediately to look at the exits, then unpause and head directly for the exit of their choice. No time wasted there.
rain sedge
TL;DR: passive learning is just doing the thing you want and slowly getting better
mossy zinc
A lot of getting faster is just practice, practice, practice, ultimately.
unique zephyr
I’m going to look out for all that, this helps a lot
rain sedge
active learning is specifying what you want get better at and using strategies to accelerate learning
unique zephyr
Thanks for pointing that out that’s more helpful than you may know
So learning with a specific intent?
rain sedge
analogy: for a basketball player, passive would be keep playing 5v5 with your friends
you'll get better slowly
bright mango
I just realized 64 heat is impossible
mossy zinc
How do you dodge all their bullets
I don't. I just whiff my Meg summon and then kill them quickly before they can kill me.
rain sedge
active learning would be something like doing dribble drills, free shoot drills, learning defence strategies, etc
bright mango
How are you supposed to go without an SD?
rain sedge
which helps you learn faster
unique zephyr
One dash, no SD
bright mango
Passive would be like just playing basketball right?
unique zephyr
What would you even route to make it easier?
rain sedge
and than identifying where you lack, and get better at that, repeat until it becomes muscle memory
honest kernel
The biggest problem isn't the lack of death defiance
unique zephyr
I think I understand schlad
honest kernel
It's the timer
rain sedge
anyway that's the short of it
unique zephyr
What you are saying
rain sedge
cool that's good
hello mr baj
how are we doing today
haven't seen you around lately
honest kernel
doing ok
unique zephyr
The thing is I don’t always know what I lack
So I’m glad people are pointing it out, I’m okay
No pain at the moment
Just chillin
bright mango
This is why i wish i could make a save file
mossy zinc
Baj is always around lurking.
bright mango
I want to practice hades spins and attacks
mossy zinc
He'll react to your message if you post something witty like I do all the time.
sullen minnow
No pain at the moment
Honestly if you want to give yourself advice, you’d be astounded at how much you pick up about your own play by watching your own replays
honest kernel
What would you even route to make it easier?
Free rooms so you can play safer. Big damage boons and hammers to counteract Approval process
mossy zinc
So, well, that's not gonna happen to you, I guess, my mistake.
honest kernel
Still have to do the boss fights
Which includes EM4 CP2 with no death defiance outside of keepsakes
So, still hard
bright mango
I literally said baj shield once and he appeared
honest kernel
But you have a shot
bright mango
He is always lurking
honest kernel
👀
mossy zinc
You'd definitely get Epic Hyper Delivery or Epic Greatest Reflex if you're routing.
sullen minnow
I find that when I can’t find a solution to what I’m doing wrong sometimes it helps to just sit and watch myself. You’d be surprised at the little things you’re doing that you won’t ordinarily catch because you’re in a state of flow
honest kernel
Heck, chaos would be good
mossy zinc
Plus things like Stubborn Roots.
sullen minnow
Very common practice in my former life
honest kernel
Because his keepsake makes chaos gates free
rain sedge
like FO2 asterius charge discussion we had
honest kernel
And, since you'd know ahead of time what you'd get ... it's free chaos estate
mossy zinc
Beowulf with 5 bloodstones in Tartarus.
honest kernel
Let's go
bright mango
Poggers
mossy zinc
- Mirage Shot.
solemn pulsar
Baj do you want hyper delivery with a single dash or more dashes
mossy zinc
And only + Cast damage from there on.
Hyper Delivery on Aegis for sure. You have Bull Rush.
solemn pulsar
Just asking his preference for a 64 heat run
Bearing in mind you may not get rush delivery until elysium @honest kernel
honest kernel
I'm used to just skip Hermes outright unless I need a boon to sell
so
Hyper Delivery could be the play, yeah
solemn pulsar
We could do heroic dashes hehehehehe
unique zephyr
Honestly if you want to give yourself advice, you’d be astounded at how much you...
I’ll start doing that now then
And take replays of each my runs now
mossy zinc
The answer is Greatest Reflex + Rush Delivery + 10x Ignited Ichor.
unique zephyr
I will have questions though watching my own replays
I’m glad to have people answer them, if I have questions I’ll upload and specify a time stamp
honest kernel
@gaunt fiber https://gyazo.com/cc1ffd3c07f5788f80c35f18a1dc34d7 Altho it isn't the best example, notice how the head barely moves even tho I get behind it, while it does the barrage
You'll want to dash to the other side as he's winding up, so that you avoid the first hits
And he'll whiff the rest because of his angle
gaunt fiber
I mean if you give me Poseidon's Aid...
honest kernel
lmao
gaunt fiber
But I get it, thanks!
honest kernel
But you can just dash to the other island
And it should work ok
The idea is that you just avoid his firing angle
gaunt fiber
this is currently the worst attack for me
mossy zinc
"Just don't get hit like I didn't when I was fully invincible."
honest kernel
I did say it wasn't the best example. Just wanted the gif to show that the head barely turns
And that you can take advantage of that
mossy zinc
You just wanted an excuse to show off your surfing skills.
gaunt fiber
send them
mossy zinc
m sure you're building up towards them.
honest kernel
https://gyazo.com/d891535a4c0e773daaa6920cd0dad277 Oldie, but neat
mossy zinc
I have a few other gifs that do that *much *better
This is obviously a teaser.
gaunt fiber
Hm
mossy zinc
What did I say?
mossy zinc
gaunt fiber
lmao
honest kernel
For all intents and purpose, it wasn't an insult
gaunt fiber
ik ik
mossy zinc
Bots shouldn't be fighting among themselves.
I didn't realize Baj was also so very predictable.
honest kernel
If only I had that excuse
unique zephyr
@mossy zinc one thing I noticed from watching the speed run video and thinking about my play is that Rama special bounces off and hits multiple enemies, I, not sure how far they can be from each other for all to be tagged
Or in what positions relative to each other
Since I don’t see the individual bullets of the special bounce off, just the shared suffering indicator afterwards
bronze viper
i was told to practice power shotting to "avoid bad habits"
Sorry, I didn't think you would take this so literally. If an enemy would die without a power shot, you should do that, but I thought you meant not going for powershots in the beginning of rooms. Also, against Sneak, it's very difficult to get power shots in general. With Rama I typically aim to use a companion in that room.
edgy arrow
um
unique zephyr
Sorry, I didn't think you would take this so literally. If an enemy *would* die...
Sorry, I tend to take things a bit too literally, my fault. I didn’t mean that sorry for miscommunication
unique zephyr
Wait what
edgy arrow
is this a fresh file thing
mossy zinc
I don't know the specifics of Rama's bounce tbh. It bounces to enemies close-by is good enough for me.
solemn pulsar
no gems allowed in fresh file
edgy arrow
solemn pulsar
or nectars
edgy arrow
what is this
unique zephyr
I’ll pay attention to when and when it doesn’t tag multiple then
solemn pulsar
darkness + keys are the only available blue laurel rewards on first run
so it fills it with food
unique zephyr
I vaguely remember seeing that early on
edgy arrow
had no idea this was a thing lol
solemn pulsar
pretty valuable in first run actually
unique zephyr
Very very vaguely now that you showed me
unique zephyr
That’s what I mean like if it doesn’t tag them notice how far they are
So I know more intuitively later?
Just a mental note
Maybe
mossy zinc
Sure.
unique zephyr
But yeah if they are close it will happen since I didn’t think it would happen as often as it did
unique zephyr
So my special was inefficient
But now I know I don’t have to use it as much
Just enough as necessary
mossy zinc
Don't think too deeply about it. The #1 thing for improving is just playing a lot and setting goals that force you to push yourself beyond what you're currently capable of.
mossy zinc
Just enough as necessary
Yeah, pretty much.
unique zephyr
Ah ok, so if I feel like I’m consciously pushing myself on specifi things I’m doing it right then
Thanks for everyone’s patience
bronze viper
Also, re: what people were saying before, about choosing TD2 and playing defensively over TD3 and playing aggressively with more risk, my Rama videos are very much the former if you want to emulate a style closer to what you're going for
unique zephyr
And being more specific than git gud
unique zephyr
Also, re: what people were saying before, about choosing TD2 and playing defensi...
Good to know
bronze viper
I can do the latter but defensive play is my default if I want to win.
unique zephyr
I think I’d feel a bit more comfortable being defensive personally I’ll watch those vids
What is Tail’s style described as
bronze viper
Both
unique zephyr
Yeah I was thinking it was a good blend of both
bronze viper
He plays "defensively" by finding the correct opportunity to get the most damage
I sacrifice potential damage to not get hit but get safe shots in.
unique zephyr
I do notice he finds the right time to dash right in front of them
He times it just right
In the right spot
I did notice that the charge shot went off in the enemy recovery animation
Or just after
bronze viper
But if you try to emulate that without enough basic knowledge of animations or your own timings, you'll just get stun locked and die
bronze viper
It's probably (?) more important to know the enemy animations over the aspect itself. That information transfers really well to everything else too.
mossy zinc
What is Tail’s style described as
Optimal.
Efficient.
Obviously he still makes mistakes, but he doesn't make a lot of them. He doesn't waste time, and he doesn't get hit.
Most of the time.
bronze viper
But trying to emulate optimality before you have the baseline is like watching a big grand finals match for a fighting game, and trying to emulate the decisions of the players 1-to-1 to win games. IF you have enough game knowledge, that approach is actually fine, but if you don't, you don't see the risks they took, or why they made the decisions they do.
mossy zinc
But you start asking yourself good questions.
It's somewhat different because fighting games have a human opponent, AI is a lot more predictable.
solemn pulsar
What is Tail’s style described as
foxy
neat sonnet
Foxy indeed
mossy zinc
You can use the same tactics on every Greatshield.
bronze viper
Predictable sometimes at least. It is hard to balance all of the different potential animations and attack timings of lots of enemies on the screen so it does end up being quite a lot like a fighting game in the end.
solemn pulsar
speaking of fighting games, some people have started referring to the period in which you don't have your casts on a cast weapon as the "Neutral game"
which i think is funny and sort of accurate
bronze viper
Yeah I end up going footsies against Elysium shades pretty often lmao
*disclaimer: You can't afford to do that on TD3 lol. Unga bunga must kill them asap.
mossy zinc
bronze viper
Lol, every time I watch speedruns since I started playing again I always wonder how they can possibly get through rooms so quickly then I forget that I can't turn CP1 and JS1 off
edgy arrow
i did a run with no JS today
one tartarus room had two louts in it
that was all
they weren't even elite
it felt like cheating
solemn pulsar
Lol, every time I watch speedruns since I started playing again I always wonder ...
"why is this taking 40% longer on average???"
yeah 2 lout tart rooms early are great on JS0
the best though are chamber 12 rooms with 4 elite louts
and that's it
edgy arrow
louts good value tbh
bronze viper
I mean those rooms are fast. Going home speed run
edgy arrow
are they tho
bronze viper
If they're elite lol
edgy arrow
there are a million of them and they spread out over the entire room
bronze viper
Yeah normal witch rooms take forever
edgy arrow
yeah if they're elite its a different story
bronze viper
Also lol watching the Rama speedrun, I was like... wait wtf why don't I charge powershots while enemies are spawning it's so fast. Derp, it's been many moons since I've played without DC2
edgy arrow
lol
that's why i ran DC0 on my rama 40
a bad idea? probably
but one shotting things as they spawn just feels so good
vital grove
unique zephyr
So if I want to finish around a 15 minute pace around what time should pass in game when I leave Elysium?
That’ll help me calculate average time per chamber
mossy zinc
Don't need Rama needs DC or anything in particular for 40.
unique zephyr
Styx time is variable
Which is why I’m wondering what time I should be exiting Elysium by for my TD3 goal
mossy zinc
Probably something like 10~12 min.
I don't expect you'll hit sub 15 on your first couple tries. You'll get a feel for it when you get faster as you play more.
bright mango
Sub 15 with DC 2 is kinda hard
mossy zinc
It's not sub 15 with DC2. It's just sub 15 with EM2 and TD3. It's a good goal to work towards for practice.
unique zephyr
I admit I’ve never speedrun anything before but at least this is just playing much more efficiently more than fancy speedrun tech
Which I want to and I think can learn to do
mossy zinc
Yeah, you can do it!
unique zephyr
12 minutes out of elysium is an average of 20 seconds a chamber, 10 is around 17
From my calculations
Thanks for the encouragement!
I appreciate it a lot 🙂
mossy zinc
Friend chambers stop the timer, and shops and fountains you can pass through very quickly.
Chaos Gates are your friends, too.
unique zephyr
Yeah I was thinking that must by why free rooms are so important
Because then I can take more time in the non free rooms
mossy zinc
Thanatos will also stop the timer.
Speedrunners turn off TD for any heat because survival rooms stop the timer, and TD disables survival rooms, but since you want to play on high heat, I think it's good to have TD3 on and get used to that pacing.
bright mango
^^^
unique zephyr
Ah ok, that makes sense then. I know forced overtime speeds up spawns, FO1 speeds it up enough right? I see many speed runners use FO1
I notice especially on normal speed spawns take precious seconds
mossy zinc
FO1 is popular.
bronze viper
For heat completion FO2 is jut worth way too much to not take
But yeah it's kind of moot if you just die with FO2 on lol
unique zephyr
I’m thinking of first learning FO2 enemy patterns and then optimizing speed
Because I can’t really optimize speed if I can’t dodge well right
bronze viper
Right
unique zephyr
I like that this game has so much to learn
Gives richness to the game long after the story 🙂
bronze viper
It's also fun to watch other people learn alongside you. It's a pretty solid investment, lots of people in this channel including me started off as the people asking a billion questions
mossy zinc
Right now where you're at, getting sub 15 is less a matter of taking FO for spawn rates than player skill.
I'd say you'll be faster with FO0 just because you'll have a lot more room for error.
bronze viper
FO0 on Rama is pretty broken since you get all the time in the world to line up nutty power shots, and they can't move out of the way fast enough typically
mossy zinc
But if practicing FO is fun, absolutely do that.
rain sedge
Is today Hermes cup?
solemn pulsar
Yeah
halcyon flame
considering 32 heat hera just to get it out of the way at some point
i've gotten slightly less bad at using it so i might just do a trippy flare build
bright mango
Crush shot is better imo
halcyon flame
i just kinda haven't tried crush shot
i like true shot because i mostly don't have to aim
is blown kiss good with hera?
you have to actually hit the target with the arrow before the casts come out so for blown kiss to work you'd just have to charge your shots in a very weird and specific way so they at least take more damage from the first hit
so is it basically just more range for crush shot?
solemn pulsar
blown kiss is buggy with hera, can make the cast come out weird/not hit sometimes
it should be avoided
halcyon flame
so you just scale crush shot as much as possible?
aside from duos but dang that's pretty barebones
shy plinth
The main issue with crush shot on other weapons is that it's a melee cast which kind of defeats the purpose
Hera turns it into artillery
halcyon flame
crush shot is definitely very good for high heat when making an adequate cast build becomes very difficult
or just very luck-dependent
bronze viper
Though aiming is definitely an issue on Crush Shot Hera
halcyon flame
ap2 ri1 🥲
bronze viper
It's very very possible to miss
halcyon flame
yeah you really wanna get greater recall if you can
true fable
yeah
neat sonnet
At 1/8 the range
shy plinth
Hera bow tho
true fable
rarity dont matter on crush shot
neat sonnet
Oh ye
halcyon flame
crush shot barely scales with rarity
neat sonnet
On Hera nothing rangewise matters
shy plinth
The ol pom bomb
true fable
exactly
crush shot is actually preferable
since your casts dont go flying into the far corners of asphodel
true fable
might be rip current
shy plinth
Maybe peer pressure
neat sonnet
Blown what now
halcyon flame
rip current is really nice
shy plinth
Though new players might take peer pressure because they think it does things
halcyon flame
blown kiss is probably generally less worth taking
shy plinth
It's just rare to see
daring hedge
yeah i'd say probably rip current
daring hedge
you can at least get blown kiss prereq first boon selection without rolls
true fable
^
daring hedge
not so for rip current prereq
halcyon flame
bad influence is really bad
shy plinth
Most of dio's tier 2s are garbo
daring hedge
bad influence can be insanely good
bronze viper
I don't think it's Rip Current lol, mostly because most builds would always take Poseidon's Aid if given the choice to
true fable
oh you know what
true fable
it might be high tolerance
halcyon flame
bad influence is decent on js lol
daring hedge
yeah it's not that we think rip current is bad or that people don't look for it
true fable
i probably account for 50% of high tolerance takes alone
daring hedge
it just never shows up when you want :)
true fable
just because of dio beo anybeat grinding
shy plinth
Playing at 50 heat seems so sad
halcyon flame
is high tolerance the one the makes you take less damage standing in fog?
true fable
thats the one
halcyon flame
high tolerance can be good at high heat beo
daring hedge
i got that for the first time in ages on my baby hestia 50 lol
bronze viper
Yeah my vote is High Tolerance. Seeing as how it's the only boon I have yet to get in the game in HM lmao
daring hedge
pom targeted it too
true fable
tbh ive come around to 50 heat playstyle
shy plinth
The pom target!
halcyon flame
personally i just wanna take all the damage reductions i can get
true fable
you just make the most of what ya got
shy plinth
Yeah I mean it's some good core fundamental Hades
true fable
and also sometimes what ya got is sea storm splitting bolt
shy plinth
But I was thinking about that time I got rip current smoldering air
shy plinth
Surfin USA
daring hedge
yeah if you're bright you get good duos
shy gulch
didnt u get scint feast in tart or something
halcyon flame
if you're not bright then tough luck
true fable
tailesque you got LP in tart on poseidon sword
true fable
hmmmm
halcyon flame
lp?
shy gulch
you needed to channel your inner hadesprof
daring hedge
lmao
daring hedge
60
true fable
is it not 70?
daring hedge
it's 60 yeah
true fable
oh maybe i was factoring in ff damage
daring hedge
lightning rod is 70
daring hedge
like
true fable
its probably better once you get your hades phd
halcyon flame
oh yeah lightning phalanx is great
solemn pulsar
yeah 60 is also a lot
tailesque when telling his friends about his hades exploits
unique zephyr
It's also fun to watch other people learn alongside you. It's a pretty solid in...
I always need to remind myself everyone was around where I was. The one reason I’m hesitant about playing on FO0 is because I heard I have to unlearn everything muscle memory wise going up and down, how true is that, like FO0 practice won’t be completely worthless once I increase the speed right?
Like I hear about the timings getting messed up but not sure how much or anything
bronze viper
I mean it'll be an adjustment if you have to go back but not like a huge margin.
Though there will be very sparing instances where you go back
At least with heat completion.
For speedrunning or if you're on medium high heat Excalibur etc. FO0/1 is a lot more common
You'll still learn how things work with FO0, but you have to improve with steps. If you're just instantly dying with FO2 then you're not learning much. If you get really comfortable with efficient damage and dodging with FO0 the transition will be cleaner.
shy plinth
Yeah like the game is still Hades
It's not like the enemies gain new patterns, it'll just be a little different
In some cases it will matter and in others it will not
We just call the relevant cases "Elysium"
bronze viper
Speeder BP2 witches with FO2 will probably be the first "oh god what have I done" moment. And it will continue to be that way for the rest of your high heat career :3
shy plinth
Also shout out to speeder slugger blue skeletons
I forget their name but I remember they kill me
Oh also FO2 fast hands feel actually impossible to dodge the first time you see them
bronze viper
The stun lock homies? Yeah their name eludes me too but they're such fun
shy plinth
Outside of Asterius I think the biggest issue I remember is greatshields having basically no wind-up time
bronze viper
Yeah as you mentioned Elysium brings a host of new problems with FO2. Which isn't bad, but yeah if you're dying very quickly to everything you're not getting much chance to learn
shy plinth
Also we are making the bold assumption of making it to elysium as opposed to dying to white head lernie bonks
Which are very very fast
bronze viper
E.g. I learned nothing the first x times FO2 EM3 Asterius charged me and I died instantly lol.
shy plinth
Yeah Asterius is like notably insane on FO
bronze viper
I was continuously scared of that fight and it would feel like pure RNG if I made it to Styx (or to the actual Heroes fight if I got the Asterius mini), but I was able to safely observe his patterns while playing Chaos Shield. Then I made a save to figure out how to dance around it with other aspects
YMMV but yeah don't try to solve all your problems at once lol.
shy plinth
Once you build up muscle memory for timing your dashes so you don't clip the edges of his jump craters, it's really just not getting greedy when he starts to spin up and hoping he never does the charge
bronze viper
Charge isn't too bad. Especially with aspects that can really abuse backstabs like Rama
He gives you a millenium to give him a Thousand Years of Pain
shy plinth
You actually have good mechanical execution tho
shy gulch
charge is horrendous to me
i swear sometimes i dash and he'll hit the pillar / wall, and sometimes he'll just swerve and hit me
regardless of my timing
bronze viper
My favorite was in EA where if you used an invuln call at basically any time during the charge he would just start charging in a very tight loop until the call ended then continued chasing you.
bronze viper
I think you can still kind of get him to do it if you call too early? But for the most part I just hug a pillar and call right before he hits me.
I think Theseus spear chuck does probably the most damage to me consistently in that fight, EM3 or not.
shy gulch
im pretty sure the move that gets me is literally asterius's charge lmao
everything else feels p doable
well barring the crapshoot that's EM4
bronze viper
Apparently it's variable, I'm very bad at dodging on reaction when he actually throws it. I just see the starting animation and if I'm doing something else I'll just dodge then I'll get hit half the time
unique zephyr
Oh also FO2 fast hands feel actually impossible to dodge the first time you see ...
Can confirm this happened to me
shy gulch
yea ledger its variable fsr
unique zephyr
Also exploding chariots are so fast and dracons and wave makers are somehow actually threatening now
shy gulch
i usually just hide behind a pillar for longer than necessary
unique zephyr
Oh and Asterius accesses the speed force
bronze viper
Wavemakers are some of everyone's least favorite enemies. BP2 Wavemakers, especially Shifter or Speeder (or triggered both) can very easily make it off screen and you might not be able to dodge within a reasonable reaction window.
shy plinth
There are a couple BP2 combos that still feel pretty terrible but they don't happen that much
Like I was watching Tail's baby hestia 50s and he got a run with two speeder cloner witch rooms in tartarus
That one was a reset
unique zephyr
So question about empty dashing: how much of the dash animation do I have I frames for?
shy plinth
Screen looked like Ikaruga
unique zephyr
Like when do my I frames begin and end
shy plinth
It is very difficult to answer that question via text
bronze viper
I'm not sure when they end but you do have them I think immediately after the input
I'm going by feel though, I have no evidence for that claim
shy gulch
yeah its mostly a feel thing
bronze viper
Lol, I remember in the beginning of my playing the game I was on Malphon and someone suggested iframing stuff and I thought I was just hot garbage. No matter what I could never get the timing. I just gave up on fists entirely until like weeks later when I read that you don't get iframes while in an attack animation lol
shy plinth
Yeah like if you want to learn how to maximize dash timing, watch either Tail or Retrash
shy gulch
that's something to get used to with lucifer actually
shy plinth
If you watch Retrash just ignore all of his boon screens
shy gulch
imagine having zero iframes in a dash attack
shy plinth
He runs a different version of the game than we do
bronze viper
Lucifer had... sooooo many different discrete issues that made me stop playing it lmao
shy plinth
Props to using the correct discrete spelling and usage
shy gulch
i do love luci tho its so fun
bronze viper
So while yeah not being able to iframe easily was annoying... oh god, how do you pick the "feature" that killed it for me the most
shy gulch
prob gonna give dio soaker 40 another shot this time, hopefully wont choke it to dad
bronze viper
I haven't tried without auto aim yet, I look forward to that
shy gulch
it was pretty free until i lost my singular brain cell
shy plinth
At some point I have to try a merciful end lucifer
bronze viper
Lol, does Divine Strike beam still not deflect, only at the butt of the gun?
wanton plover
playing shackle nemesis and got d edge in early elysium
shy plinth
Easy enough
shy plinth
Elysium trials are bait
wanton plover
lesson learned
shy plinth
I relearn that lesson every time I take them and then die
bronze viper
One of the hottest benefits to TD2 is being able to take Athena trials in Elysium lol
shy plinth
I still do not want to deal with BP2 invulnerable greatshields that I can't stop from respawning
bronze viper
Oh for sure. I've definitely lost a spare DD i got in Tartarus trying to high roll a DD in Elysium
gaunt fiber
Getting... closer
Another charged skewer without boons nor NPC
Timed out on heroes
bronze viper
What's your pact setup? I know you're on AP2 RI2 TD3, but what are you not taking for all of that pain
gaunt fiber
I'm avoiding DC*
bronze viper
I see
bright mango
lmao yes that is hilarious
bronze viper
So like... what if you have to take a boon that would benefit your run in some way? I assume that's super unlikely with AP0 but yeah
Reset?
gaunt fiber
I don't reset except terrible god/hammer room 1
bright mango
So like... what if you *have* to take a boon that would benefit your run in some...
are you talking to me or astaos?
bronze viper
Nah I was responding to Pengy
bronze viper
Nah I mean like if you have no rerolls and Dio gives you After Party, Positive Outlook and Nectar
quartz mantle
Nah but what if you have no rerolls and you get hermes boon that's Move Speed, Dodge Chance, or Hyper Sprint