Thank you Supergiant
#h1-high-heat-strategies
tardy path
dire steppe
hell mode should start at 32 heat
true fable
dont buy s(tuff) you dont need
dire steppe
that’s what i call a hard early game
true fable
good rule
sly remnant
hell mode is....interesting design
true fable
especially if youre going for speed
mossy zinc
After Party (Dionysus): If your Health is low after Encounters, oh snap I forgot to put something here man, I hope you don't read this far. Haha, you alright, Zag? You're not looking so good.
true fable
you should basically never go into styx shop if youre doing 32/40 speed unless you have hypersprint or think youre gonna die
holy cow that ones perfect lmao
honest kernel
> **After Party (Dionysus):** If your Health is low after Encounters, oh snap I ...
Oh no Zag's getting snap'ed
honest kernel
you should basically never go into styx shop if youre doing 32/40 speed unless y...
I do it if I need damage as well
true fable
the thing is
there is rarely something that will save you the time you lose
maybe in IGT
idk
mossy zinc
Ocean's Bounty is a better Membership Card, so that's always worth it.
honest kernel
... Well I can't read today
true fable
i think rush delivery is the only thing that wiuld be worth to me
honest kernel
For speedrun, yeah skip it unless necessary
true fable
even rush delivery depends on whether i think i have enough damage to phase
if i do then what's the point
maybe bad news?
idk
mossy zinc
Positive Outlook (Dionysus): Take less damage all the time.
rain sedge
bronze skin is 10% damage reductions y'all haters
rain sedge
it's just that it's competing with the best boons at high heat
tardy path
> **Positive Outlook (Dionysus):** Take less damage all the time.
so true...
dire steppe
unless patty
rain sedge
divine dash > call > +HP with SD > impervious longer with SD > sure footing for HS > brilliant riposte to proc legendary > bronze skin
dire steppe
Broken Spearpoint: You no longer care about Poison or Personal Liability.
honest kernel
Even holy shield is better
rain sedge
broken spearpoint procs off poison?
hollow lynx
yes
honest kernel
... Don't mind me
rain sedge
I can feel my brain expanding
hollow lynx
makes styx ez, but not as good for hades
rain sedge
I remember the time I died to the big satyr poison on my 50 attempt
this could've prevented it
true fable
all revenge effects begin on poison
before you start taking poison damage
most noticeable with holy shield
honest kernel
For a second, I thought rigged said "Broken Spearpoint : No longer triggers off of Poison or Personal Liability"
And I was like "... WHAT"
dire steppe
@rain sedge did you really just not mention blinding flash
although it’s not as good as it used to be :(
honest kernel
I really can't read correctly right now
sly remnant
i only have tidal dash and trippy flare out of tartarus and i have to sell one
do i even keep this run
mossy zinc
Peer Pressure (Dionysus): Hangover-afflicted foes are already dead after 4 Sec lol. You want another drink, Zag?
dire steppe
Blinding Flash (Athena): Your attacks that can Deflect make enemies Instantly Die.
honest kernel
i only have tidal dash and trippy flare out of tartarus and i have to sell one
Welcome to my usual High Heat run
You get starting boon, midboss boon, and that's it
sly remnant
CF is awful
honest kernel
Peer Pressure is a boon that 1. Only works when multiple foes are on the screen, 2. Only works if they nearly hug eachother, and 3. doesn't do much after meeting 1. and 2.
mossy zinc
Exclusive Access (Dionysus x Poseidon:) You gain 400 Obols.
dire steppe
Divine Protection (Athena): Your next Keepsake will be Broken Spearpoint.
true fable
im saying id take it over after party baj
although obviously
purple after party is stonks
honest kernel
Depending on my setup
I'd rather have nothing lol
Especially Dio Call
Don't want to accidentally refresh the big hangover stacks
sly remnant
hey exclusive access is good
true fable
yeah if you have dio call absolutely not
dire steppe
athena legendary is so good if you are td2 (or if you’re TD3 and you never get hit)
tardy path
**Exclusive Access (Dionysus x Poseidon:)** You gain 400 Obols.
Do you not like exclusive access Nyaan?
true fable
the pro gamer move is to get exclusive access for your hermes boons and sell it right after
tardy path
I thought its seems pretty decent, but too hard to get early to be very useful
dire steppe
i’m always amused when i get epic +1 cast on chaos
mossy zinc
I like it, but there's no way m not selling it between biomes lol.
true fable
you get it early not infrequently on stygian soul beowulf
dire steppe
as far as i can tell it does nothing
honest kernel
Does the rarity affect the penalty on Chaos Boons
mossy zinc
If I have UC, anyway.
hollow lynx
the worst part of exclusive access is that the boons you want to make Epic are the ones you need to grab the duo in the first place
true fable
makes the penalty worse i think for chaos
honest kernel
Because, from my experience, it does ?
dire steppe
epic boons have worse penalties?
rain sedge
mhm
honest kernel
Less punishing penalties, probably what he means
dire steppe
maybe epic cast gives you +2% ambiguity bonus
true fable
no ive noticed some epic ones have terrible penalties
- cast hidden chambers epic is like 5 chambers
tardy path
If I have UC, anyway.
Fair enough
true fable
common is usually like 3
rain sedge
true
dire steppe
so you know how there’s a penalty where “slain enemies toss an inferno bomb at you”
i just had an idea
“inferno bombers toss slain enemies at you”
mossy zinc
m very sure curses are just random and have nothing to do with rarity.
dire steppe
imagine playing js3 + chaos spawn curse + that thing in asphodel
honest kernel
https://gyazo.com/a246a6fde88040c988b85b24a04a761a Probably random
From my last run
true fable
yeah seems so
mossy zinc
Smoldering Air (Lady Aphrodite x Zeus): You win.
true fable
oh well
salt talking
smoldering air + billowing + second wind is just complete cheese
dire steppe
Vengeful Mood (Ares x Zeus): This is what you will Feel when you lose.
formal gust
- the hermes autocharge boon
tardy path
Debatable
tardy path
I mean, good duo but is it a guarantee?
formal gust
and proud bearing
true fable
why would you need autocharge with smoldering lol
hollow lynx
bc we want faster calls
true fable
fair
honest kernel
Even then
true fable
we just want calls every 10 seconds though really
formal gust
how good is clouded judgement in general
honest kernel
^
formal gust
it seems pretty decent
tardy path
Ehhh
honest kernel
That's a good question
formal gust
but idk
dire steppe
Greatest Reflex (Hermes): You can only use Dash-Strikes from now on.
mossy zinc
Clouded Judgment is really good.
honest kernel
It might get you an extra lesser call or two in boss fights
formal gust
> **Greatest Reflex (Hermes):** You can only use **Dash-Strikes** from now on.
is this from something
or are we making these up
honest kernel
But I don't know how much it actually does
dire steppe
we are making these up
honest kernel
or are we making these up
Memeing around
formal gust
oh that's neat
rain sedge
I mean the epic clouded judgement is really good
formal gust
ctrl b actually works
mossy zinc
We're writing suggestions for Amir to make the descriptions more accurate.
true fable
<insert sword hammer here> reset. cry a little
formal gust
Double Edge (Daedalus Hammer) You are a Tartarus reset Andy
tidal flame
Greatest Reflex (Hermes): Now grant you 90% invulnerability chance versus Hades Spear Swipe because this is what it kinda does anyway.
formal gust
never say that
dire steppe
Eternal Chamber (Daedalus Hammer): You no longer deal damage.
rain sedge
@true fable remember the time I told this channel I had a perfect run
tidal flame
Twin/Triple Shot: Your bow now does damage.
formal gust
Charged Flight (Daedalus Hammer): get Blood Price flashbacks
mossy zinc
Divine Dash (Athena): Your Da—presses A
dire steppe
Quake Cutter: After your special, you must Dash to cancel the animation.
tidal flame
> **Divine Dash (Athena):** Your Da—*presses A*
It's actually B for me so check your privilege
formal gust
Dash Nova (Daedalus Hammer): After you Special, immediately give up your run
honest kernel
> **Divine Dash (Athena):** Your Da—*presses A*
This post is not KBM friendly
tidal flame
Snap Nova: I'm back baby
formal gust
Merciful End (Ares x Athena): You are the Omega reset andy
tidal flame
it would be fun though if they release a patch on April Fools
dire steppe
Power Rush: You have Celestial Sharanga, which can Block.
tidal flame
and just add snap nova back
dire steppe
what was snap nova
true fable
call it by its full name
tidal flame
what was snap nova
Imagine Dash Nova
But even clunkier
Instead of dash forward, if you hit special again, it snaps you back to the original location
true fable
rush kick is unironically good on gilga
honest kernel
Sudden Rush : You become Asterius on Forced Overtime 2
dire steppe
asterius reminds me of poseidon call more than bull rush
honest kernel
haha arent you always asterius when you bull rush
That's how he ends some of my attempts tho
formal gust
Dual Shot (Artemis): Immediately update your game please why
honest kernel
:/
formal gust
Mirage Shot (Artemis x Poseidon): Immediately downpatch your game please
dire steppe
Unhealthy Fixation (Aphrodite): You realize you’ve spent hours trying to clear 50 heat and have neglected real life.
formal gust
Empty Inside (Aphrodite): ...
rain sedge
> **Unhealthy Fixation (Aphrodite):** You realize you’ve spent hours trying to c...
I didnt wake up and go to this channel today to get called out like this
formal gust
the edge is real
tidal flame
- Spread Fire (Rail): reworked; now fires as a single, powerful blast
mossy zinc
Unhealthy Fixation (Lady Aphrodite): @mossy zinc
sly remnant
alright tell me if this is crazy
formal gust
Greater Constipation
true fable
twould be cool if there were a double barreled shotgun hammer
cin please stop
pay attention in school
tidal flame
Greater Constipation
add 50 minutes to your Switch playtime
sly remnant
what if a way to counteract CF is Fated Authority
true fable
LOL
formal gust
fated authority
sly remnant
i mean gold is useless right
formal gust
haven't heard that name in a long time
dire steppe
Splitting Bolt (Zeus): You thought Support Fire was cool?
sly remnant
imma try it
honest kernel
Interesting
rain sedge
I mean CF isnt that bad real talk
formal gust
Storm Lightning (Zeus): If obtained in Asphodel onward, never get Splitting Bolt
tidal flame
Curse of Drowning: Seastorm's less successful brother; this one drops out of college.
honest kernel
CF is actually much worse then I thought
When you go in the midshop at every opportunity, missing a boon on at 'least half of them isn't exactly great
true fable
you can get cod and sea storm now though
tbh the main problem with CF for me is if i miss a tart midshop boon
that just snowballs
part of why retrash's coin purse start is kind of interesting to me
formal gust
ew not asserting dominance over rng
yknow I kind of wish the chaos egg still guarantted a chaos gate the first room of the biome
dire steppe
i wish you could kill yourself by using chaos gates
honest kernel
I mainly do Shackles start because I don't like timing out in Tartarus, assuming I run any ammount of RI
true fable
ive suicided to go into gates in anyheat
honest kernel
Coin start is ... interesting
formal gust
at what point do you think god keepsakes start not being the go-to
rain sedge
AP2
honest kernel
When AP2 becomes mandatory
true fable
suiciding to go into the gate and leaving lernie with 0 DDs 👌
honest kernel
And RI2 to an extent
true fable
but yeah AP2 100%
hollow lynx
you'll look fabulous
honest kernel
I used it in my 57 heat clear
formal gust
I used it with rama at 40
true fable
i just dont take it because beowulf lol
honest kernel
From Asphodel to Styx
formal gust
got some good results, though rama doesn't really need more damage
honest kernel
Depends on your weapon, and if you need the damage and have your core boons filled
mossy zinc
Breaching Slash: lol
Cruel Thrust: lol
Cursed Slash: lol
Dash Nova: lol
Double Edge: Your Dash-Strike hits twice and deals +20% damage.
Double Nova: Your Special hits twice but no longer knocks foes away.
Flurry Slash: Hold Attack to play Twin Fists.
Hoarding Slash: lol
Piercing Wave: Your Dash-Strike fires a wave that pierces foes, dealing 30 damage.
Shadow Slash: lol
Super Nova: Your Special hits a wider area and deals +20% damage.
World Splitter: lol
honest kernel
Is Super Nova even not a lol ?
formal gust
breaching slash is cool
rain sedge
Is Super Nova even not a *lol* ?
good for poseidon
formal gust
ok how is super nova non a lol and breaching slash is
honest kernel
I guess it does something there
mossy zinc
Super Nova at least does something.
Breaching Slash doesn't affect your Dash-Strike.
And Sword doesn't have an Attack.
formal gust
pretty sure it does?
mossy zinc
Only Dash-Strike.
rain sedge
the only hammer I take on poseidon
formal gust
double edge can be nice on poseidon to finish stuff off ig?
idk
super nova is the only thing that like actually helps poseidon specifically though
tidal flame
The correct response when you play Arthur
Breaching Slash: lol
Cruel Thrust: lol
Cursed Slash: lol
Dash Nova: lol
Double Edge: lol
Double Nova: lol
Flurry Slash: omegalul
Hoarding Slash: lol
Piercing Wave: lol
Shadow Slash: lol
Super Nova: lol
World Splitter: omegalul
formal gust
what about greater ~~consti-~~consecration
tidal flame
ok that one is a chuckle
rain sedge
The correct response when you play Arthur
Breaching Slash: lol
Cruel Thrust: lol...
The correct response when you play Arthur: OMEGALUL
true fable
breaching slash does affect dash strike i believe
rain sedge
imagine playing arthur at high heat
formal gust
imagine playing arthur at high heat
you make me want to do that
dire steppe
greater consecration + divine flourish + TD1 + calculated risk
this is the correct way to play arthur
true fable
unless the whole nemesis speedrunning community is misinformed which is definitely possible
rain sedge
40+ heat only, @ me when you gave up
mossy zinc
formal gust
Even if I lose I will never give up
mossy zinc
I guess maybe it does. My favorite sword is the one that lets me not play sword.
formal gust
Me with bow but my favorite bow isn’t even hera
gaunt fiber
I've been playing for 54 minutes and 17 seconds. No charged skewer
formal gust
I've been playing for 54 minutes and 17 seconds. No charged skewer
Me every time I use nemesis and don’t get dedge
gaunt fiber
It's a shame
formal gust
And then when I do get it I feel pressured to do well and then lose anyway
tidal flame
I've been playing for 54 minutes and 17 seconds. No charged skewer
cough seed cough
honest kernel
And then when I do get it I feel pressured to do well and then lose anyway
This is why I don't reset. Don't want my autopilot to be screwed up because I spent the last 15+ minutes resetting or anything like that
gaunt fiber
*cough* seed *cough*
Well yes, but actually no
mossy zinc
I need to have an absolutely terrible run for me to reset.
honest kernel
^
For my 57 heat, if I was stuck with Poseidon or Ares special, I reset
Otherwise ? I ran it
formal gust
Yeah I’ve been doing no resets for high heat and speedruns lately
Well speedrun practice
mossy zinc
My favorite bow is the shield
Pretty sure your game is actually bugged and Zeus Aspect is the only aspect you can pick. And you're still on that Nighty Night Hell mode where you can't go below your highest heat with an aspect.
That would explain a lot of things.
honest kernel
LMAO
honest kernel
Not sure we are
We kinda started to roll with Persuasion because ???
Seriously, the only change it got was to guarantee it could roll at 'least one different option
mossy zinc
Hey, I put in a lot of effort to convert everyone to Persuasion for high heat during Early Access.
honest kernel
And somehow we went from Authority to Persuasion ?
mossy zinc
Because Persuasion is way better.
sly remnant
just give yourself free boons
shy plinth
Also persuasion is kind of necessary for UC
sly remnant
you'll have more than enough boons
yea you'll get screwed but imagine having 4 core boons at high heat in tartarus
shy plinth
Purge pools with 3 boons I want to keep come up a lot
honest kernel
Better then having to stick with 3 boons when Asphodel's done
🤷♂️
Honestly this could be worth experimenting with
sly remnant
need a hammer?
mossy zinc
You can get the exact boons you want very early, you can reroll Wells and Pools and even Poms, you can reroll for DDs or Divine Dash, you can reroll keepsake+Yarn/Refreshing Nectar/miniboss boons for practically guaranteed Duo Boons or Legendaries, you can reroll bad exchanges with AP2 . . .
honest kernel
mossy zinc
Play with 5 less Heat isn't a good option for me.
mossy zinc
You can also do both.
gaunt fiber
AP2 RI4 must be something
mossy zinc
I dunno. Find out.
mossy zinc
The boon scarcity with RI1+ is honestly just what we had to deal with before 1.0 anyway.
Because Dark Foresight didn't work anyway.
gaunt fiber
I don't care about dark foresight now
gotta accept gems
My main issue atm is that I don't deal damage
that + FO0 is making me fall asleep
mossy zinc
Hmmm. Get early Nectars and poms if you're lacking damage.
gaunt fiber
Yeah that helps definetely
mossy zinc
When you can still guarantee it goes on the boons you want.
gaunt fiber
But Asphodel is so slow
armored foes vs 140 damage special
no double dash combo
it hurts
mossy zinc
Attack more.
gaunt fiber
If I get an attack boon yeah lol
mossy zinc
Spins can also do some good damage.
Well, your 4th boon should be an Attack boon if you're prioritizing priority slots.
At the latest.
sly remnant
Idk i am gonna experiment with this fated authority thing. Nyaanyaa is probably right that persuasion is better but I think its atleast taking a look at
gaunt fiber
Spins help except when enemies are roleplaying kangaroos
sly remnant
But I got boons out the butt
mossy zinc
Always worth experimenting.
gaunt fiber
Well, your 4th boon should be an Attack boon if you're prioritizing priority slo...
Yup, the thing is 4th boon can be far away
mossy zinc
Persuasion wasn't meta when I tried to tell everyone to use Persuasion lol.
gaunt fiber
We should make offerings, asking what the meta will be
mossy zinc
People were so used to 10 rerolls with Authority that they disregarded Persuasion's 4 rerolls when they added the other mirror side.
"It's bad because the second time costs 2 rerolls!" and stuff.
gaunt fiber
I think I've used authority like, once
mossy zinc
Authority might be better for something like Beowulf where you just want a whole lot of boons to make things work.
sly remnant
So here's the thing. I think that persuasion helps you get online quicker. avoid disaster scenarios with AP2, and go hunting when you really need it
But authority gives you consistency throughout the run
Nah I'm pretty sure beo needs persuasion
For chaos
mossy zinc
I don't think you need any Chaos boons for Infernal Soul on Beowulf.
mossy zinc
Maybe there's a small window around 50 where Authority is better, but then you'd add RI1+ as you go higher anyway, so you'd want Persuasion because those single Persuasion rerolls matter a lot more than single Authority rerolls.
unreal pasture
Authority could be better if you're absolutely sure of your build to try to force a duo earlier... but meh
It also has a much bigger impact on Erebus gates
50 HP 
It's pretty conflicting though... because without Persuasion... your odds of actually getting a duo goes down because you can't reroll
But the odds you see a certain god increases
But the odds to see X god is quite bad, presumably
If you can mess with the seed... it might be a thing on seeded runs
sly remnant
I think one reason authority might have fallen down in popularity is because dark foresight didn't work
Authority absolutely has a sweet spot with no RI and only AP1....but I think that sweet spot is there
Other than that its persuasion all the way
daring hedge
I think one reason authority might have fallen down in popularity is because dar...
that's a reasonable theory but i do recall persuasion becoming more popular even back when dark foresight didn't work properly
i worded that badly
i guess what i mean is, i don't think it was really connected to dark foresight
sly remnant
Okay
daring hedge
it was kind of how nyaanyaa said it, where we were too attached to the number of starting rolls and didn't really give persuasion the time at first
but each of us tried it for ourselves and were sold pretty quickly after using it enough
sly remnant
Persuasion helps you get online faster which is super important for high heat
mossy zinc
but each of us tried it for ourselves and were sold pretty quickly after using i...
After I went on a crusade telling everyone to "just try it! You can do this and this with it! Look, I get Greatest Reflex every single run!" 
sly remnant
I won't be setting any speed records with fated persuasion either
But I would like to experiment
north dove
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/786034785528709130/unknown.png pulverizing blow from anvil is the stuff of dreams
mossy zinc
Nice! Congratulations!
north dove
the more I play guan yu, the more I think it's actually the best spear aspect
gaunt fiber
Everybody knows that
cloud nebula
I don't know if I have ever beaten hades with guan yu
I tried cause people said it was op and couldn't do a thing
true fable
This is why I don't reset. Don't want my autopilot to be screwed up because I sp...
i don't really reset any high heat runs since theres a good chance i die anyway, might as well see how far i can go
anyheat is just a different beast imo
but i feel like theres still stuff to learn in each 40+ run i do
edgy arrow
I don't know if I have ever beaten hades with guan yu
guan yu high heat play goes like this:
-step one: luck into charged skewer
-step two: profit
if you miss step one you just die lol
or i do anyway
true fable
guan yu requires more brain power and active attention than i have available
cloud nebula
That may explain it
true fable
there are mistakes you can get away with just by out dpsing bosses at like <20ish? heat (people might quibble about the number)
those mistakes you can also sort of get away with on other weapons but not on GY by virtue of having much less eHP
edgy arrow
yeah i usually die to hades with GY
because that fight takes longer and it’s harder to just quickly deal a bunch of damage to get it over with before i die
that or i get randomly one shot by something stupid early ig lol
honest kernel
https://gyazo.com/d09a16aaa26e2f2422969c253805067f What did they do to the scaling LOL
They didn't just nerf it, they murdered it
loud coral
spring kettle
So Athena call no longer that good?
honest kernel
Still good
Just can't level it up to like 100 and have it last that long
Also hello random Arthur Run https://gyazo.com/0a363ce98a225886dfbf7c76f99c3bbe
...
And it's a 2-sack
WHAT
5 minutes for EM4
Patty active
Welp, threw that one fast
Didn't fight EM4 in so long lmao
mossy zinc
the more I play guan yu, the more I think it's actually the best spear aspect
I like to hear that. What makes you think that? What's your typical build and strats? 
shy plinth
I heard in early access it was actually called Nyaan Mew
mossy zinc
Lol
In Early Access I had like 150 runs with Malphon and sub 10 with everything else.
shy plinth
And you couldn't even play gilgamesh!
mossy zinc
About that . . .
Anytime there were people talking about what Fists 4 might be, all I said is I hope it's not "slower but stronger" again and that it's a hidden aspect of a woman this time.
Imagine my excitement when Gilgamesh was added.
shy plinth
We... got half of that right
I mean it's kinda sorta slower but stronger but the zoomies
mossy zinc
But the Dash-Strikes are so weak, you don't really get anywhere by using them.
shy plinth
Have you heard of this duo called Merciful End tho
mossy zinc
I actually never liked ME very much.
shy plinth
But... damage
mossy zinc
It's strong but boring.
shy plinth
My first 32 clear I was trying out AP1 on gilgamesh
Was going merciful claws but got proc-blocked on ME 3 times
Got there anyway without it
But the swords are just such big damage
Also AP1 is unpleasant
mossy zinc
It's a bit more interesting now that it's harder to get, I guess.
fathom cloud
ME is such a big power spike, feels underwhelming until you get the duo.
mossy zinc
But it also just means people don't even consider other builds when they want ME.
shy plinth
I'd be willing to consider a little deadly reversal
But yes builds that have athena on non-dash buttons are pretty pigeonholed
mossy zinc
It's boring to me that ME is optimal on every melee build.
shy plinth
Maybe I'm crazy but on demeter fists DR feels stronger
mossy zinc
It just makes aspect mechanics obsolete. You don't play the aspect anymore, you play ME. It plays the same on every melee aspect, and any alteration of the "attack > dash" rotation drops your DPS.
mossy zinc
Maybe I'm crazy but on demeter fists DR feels stronger
It's a lot more consistent.
tidal flame
It just makes aspect mechanics obsolete.
I mean isn't that just how optimization works? There will be a thing that people do often because it's strong.
Like dash strike on sword, for example. Do people here even use the normal 3 hit combos?
honest kernel
On accident
For real, if you get Cruel Thrust, it's worth using as long as it crits ?
Otherwise, too much endlag to really make practical usage of
waxen relic
you use it to style on the last foe
honest kernel
Ultimate YEET
Like
The base 3-hit combo finisher is 30 damage
Like, really ?
Arthur's like insane by comparaison
mossy zinc
That's different. You try to make the most out of sword. Playing ME makes you try to make the most out of ME.
tidal flame
Frankly I don't see a problem with that? You make the most out of the game, that's optimization.
mossy zinc
I mean you didn't see a problem with a completely busted Spread Fire and argued +400% Charged Flight was fine and not broken lol.
tidal flame
I mean that doesn't disprove my point but ok
mossy zinc
Demeter Aspect is the #1 pick on Fists for ME builds because the Special helps with DPS until you get ME—not because the Special is still relevant when you have ME.
tidal flame
Spread Fire is now settled to a niche use with Zag Rail
To me that's a sad state
Ok, in what scenario are we talking about?
Speedrunning?
mossy zinc
Your point is "I don't see a problem with it", that's not really an argument. I mean it's fine to think that, but not really anything I can engage with.
tidal flame
How about "You make the most out of the game, that's optimization."?
If ME got nerfed (which it already has been), and somehow Deadly Reversal becomes the optimal choice for every melee weapons
What do we do nexT?
Nerf DR?
mossy zinc
I want melee builds to have more variety by making different builds more equal in strength, yes.
ME always plays the same and is always optimal. Other builds still make you use your tools. Sword combo being bad is a separate issue that I would like to see addressed.
tidal flame
I want melee builds to have more variety by making different builds more equal i...
For who though?
Because for casual runs, you don't need ME to completely wipe the floor with Hades or whoever else. The game is easy once you have enough mirrors and upgrades. Optimization matters for a group of people who wants to challenge themselves for a specific goal which means that they will optimize, even if that sucks the "fun" out of the game because they find "fun" in a different sense.
mossy zinc
I don't really care what casual players pick tbh lol.
proud jay
ME is hardly optimal since there are builds that are much faster early on
mossy zinc
That's mainly because ME is much harder to get now, which I said is a good thing.
proud jay
ME is also 4 boons instead of lightning strike or tidal dash that are just one boon
mossy zinc
But it also makes a lot of people dead-focused on getting ME and ignoring any other possibilities, which I think is pretty boring.
proud jay
At least the speedrunning world mostly converted to zeus
tidal flame
I don't really care what casual players pick tbh lol.
And tbh I don't think they even care what they themselves pick. They just roll with whatever and I doubt most even know about melee ME build. So ME isn't an issue there. As for high heat or medium heat speedruns (who I am assuming we are talking about here), we get into a problem of forever chasing and nerfing the optimal option which in my opinion is futile.
proud jay
Also i don't go for ME in winstreaks so it's not like ME is the only option
mossy zinc
Others are more consistent, yeah. I never said my issue is that it's optimal per se but that it's optimal and boring to play. It's inconsistent now, but it's still optimal.
I also don't like tightening the requirements like they did for different Duo Boons. It's not intuitive and seems more like a bandaid than an elegant solution.
tidal flame
What would you do differently?
mossy zinc
It lowers the value of Divine Dash and Tidal Dash, of course, which helps the other dashes.
Dunno. I liked the more open requirements in Early Access more, I just wanted ME toned down a bit.
dire steppe
yeah you’re right i just realized all the hidden aspects are male huh
maybe lucifer can be genderless
tidal flame
Merciful End (reworked): now Deflect spreads Doom to closeby enemies, no longer end Doom early.
dire steppe
Peer Pressure
mossy zinc
That might be a good rework actually lol kinda hard to say how it would play out and also where would you take the Doom damage from.
dire steppe
Merciful End: Enemies feel less bad when they die.
mossy zinc
But I'd be fine with it just not giving bonus damage when it already increases your DPS so much by just letting you proc Doom instantly.
They could have called it the Aspect of Nyaanyaa after a certain deity who is known for wielding Malphon. 
Cat claws.
Rawr.
tidal flame
Merciful End (reworked): Deflect now spreads Doom to closeby enemies, triggers Doom immediately if 2 or more foes are effected.
Maybe this?
dire steppe
what if deflect adds +40 to doom per instance and doesn’t end the cd at all
so Dire Misfortune 2
mossy zinc
That's another solution that's kinda interesting. Would also make you wanna combo it with Curse of Longing perhaps.
true fable
my issues is that the prereq change just makes it so that ME just doesnt work at a certain point
tidal flame
Yeah, except it doesn't stack vertically but horizontally
dire steppe
tfw ME chiron
true fable
i'd rather they actually just rework it
dire steppe
terrible idea: when doom effects trigger, enemies deflect attacks
waxen relic
how about it just decreases the time till Doom triggers by like 0,2 seconds?
mossy zinc
lmao
dire steppe
but like in a way that doesn’t hurt u
tidal flame
Well it's a bit late for major rework maybe. But it's a fun thought experiment.
dire steppe
like it would be the same as if you had deflected
mossy zinc
Enemies deflect enemy attacks.
daring hedge
how about it just decreases the time till Doom triggers by like 0,2 seconds?
i could see something like this working; attack dash weaving would actually take a couple rounds to bring it to zero if it doesn't already land by then, and certain aspects can benefit from it in interesting ways if the timer cut can apply more than once
like chiron divine flourish
tidal flame
But wouldn't that just encourage you to spam even more dash?
daring hedge
basically curse of nausea but for doom
yes but the damage wouldn't be as severe and it wouldn't be a massive step up from using special instead
since it wouldn't be instant like how ME works now
dire steppe
very very bad idea: curse of nausea now reworked to be that when doom effects proc, all hangover DoT on an enemy is instantly applied all at once
daring hedge
so in a case of multiple applications of deflect to bring the timer down fast, it would be quicker than say, just how fast you can physically dash
might have to become -0.1s instead of 0.2s though, who knows
dire steppe
imagine doom attack chiron meta
daring hedge
would scale in an interesting way with impending doom
mossy zinc
ME as it is even makes two Doom boons obsolete to the point they're basically just memes.
daring hedge
dire misfortune and...?
daring hedge
it conflicts with it but curse of longing still has its (very niche) place in some builds
if you can only get that
and not ME
mossy zinc
Yeah, but once you get ME, Curse of Longing does nothing.
tidal flame
Curse of Longing: now applies all damage that should have been done if Doom is triggered early by Merciful End.
tidal flame
Nothing to see here
dire steppe
would col even really be broken if it was like 80%
mossy zinc
But it makes people want to pick up a Duo Boon from Lady Aphrodite to make ME more broken, so m cool with that.
Let's do it.
dire steppe
or if it was 50% after first hit but didn’t decay
daring hedge
the foxhope test branch update
mossy zinc
the foxhope test branch update
Oh no. He'll bring back Spread Fire meta and probably buff it, too. 
tidal flame
You know it. Expect
Spread Fire: revert back to Nighty Night status.
dire steppe
i guess it has to decay continuously to avoid weird interactions with dire misfortune
daring hedge
lmao the update literally brings us back to nighty night
dire steppe
it’s 4:26 am it should be nighty night for you
tidal flame
How did you know
tidal flame
True, but what's the odds
daring hedge
you were one hour off for me but fair
dire steppe
so i could get that one 100% but also it’s the middle of the day there so it doesn’t work
1/24 chance
but whats the odds
mossy zinc
lmao the update literally brings us back to nighty night
Forced Overtime: removed foe-specific limitations in cases where this will be particularly unfair...
Benefits Package: increased how much bonus Armor could be provided by the Bruiser Perk
40+ player index gonna be a lot smaller all of a sudden.
dire steppe
technically you can argue that HHHS users are not evenly distributed among time zones and you’re more likely to correctly guess a US time zone because the discord is in English
tidal flame
But ME Spread Fire huhhhhhh
daring hedge
we need the old school bruiser snakestones to put players in their place
dire steppe
what does that FO thing mean nya
mossy zinc
lol you don't wanna know.
dire steppe
i do
tidal flame
Basically Nighty Night we were encouraged to F10 Benefits Package rooms that are particularly bad
I think they limit a bunch of combinations so they can't happen
dire steppe
no one F10ed slugger witches
mossy zinc
Slugger Witches were the least of our worries lol.
Basically, FO isn't true +20% or +40% speed for everything anymore. They've made a lot of adjustments to make sure that unreactable attacks have a minimum telegraph now.
mossy zinc
I think Chariots are still the same tbh lol.
daring hedge
speeder brightswords can still sometimes do this (especially with shifter) but FO2 brightswords could just hurt you with insanely unreactable swipes that you could hardly perceive
it was kind of hilarious
mossy zinc
Yeah, I think Bloodless and Exalted ones were the main culprits.
tidal flame
Dodge this you filthy casual.
mossy zinc
Also EM Asterius lol.
dire steppe
one day SGG will remove all restrictions on Linker and make Linker form a complete graph
mossy zinc
That non-telegraphed swipe.
dire steppe
enjoy linking cloning numbskulls™️
daring hedge
speeder linker bloodless jumping and tugging their laser right over you 
dire steppe
can u imagine trying to weave through a complete graph of linkers
spearpoint x4 now mandatory
daring hedge
JS3 linker flame wheels is kind of like this but the experiences dies fast because they die so fast
mossy zinc
That's just EM4 with double Doomstones lol.
tidal flame
can u imagine trying to weave through a complete graph of linkers
You don't have to. Check out Retrash 54 Heat EM4 Zag Sword fight.
dire steppe
no, doomstone is not even close to a complete graph
daring hedge
doomstone laser is weaker than linker lasers though
dire steppe
if it summons 15 mini crystals you’ll get 15 lasers, if it worked like i’m saying you’d have 105 120 lasers
:)
mossy zinc
That just means you need a third Doomstone for more double-layered lasers to match Linker damage.
tidal flame
Technology isn't there yet
dire steppe
our only solace is that BP2 doesn’t apply to minibosses
C l o n e r D o o m s t o n e
mossy zinc
Pretty sure they have like one laser that links the shards to Doomstone and one that links them to another shard, no? I don't really pay attention too much, I skip the miniboss with Antos on most aspects lol.
dire steppe
do they link to each other? idk
mossy zinc
Yeah.
dire steppe
maybe my memory sucks
daring hedge
the mini doomstone shards can link to each other and to the main doomstone, but the main doomstone can also send out radial lasers that don't link to anything
these can both happen at the same time
dire steppe
yeah i think i’ve seen that pretty often
one day we will get MM2 and those little crystals will start throwing witch projectiles at you as well
mossy zinc
I like when superelite Doomstone reappears off-screen and shoots lasers directly at me in EM4. Good mechanic. Please more like that. 
dire steppe
asphodel mm2 megagorgon just has 2 of each
tidal flame
A month back there was a guy woth 0 hour played who wanted to do 46 heat first run through
daring hedge
i like when superelite sneak rinses all debuffs every time it teleports, which is constantly
tidal flame
I wonder if he gave up on the game itself lol
dire steppe
That same guy thought that fresh file meant first clear
mossy zinc
@daring hedge that's because you enjoy spinning with Hades to reapply it, right?
dire steppe
Or maybe that was someone else
Who was just like yeah i’ll farm 50473830 darkness and then do it
tidal flame
One and the same
mossy zinc
Asphodel MM2 just returns the Skullcrusher shockwave to Nighty Night.
dire steppe
if you have poseidon attack on the spin, does it knock back enemies in a physically accurate way or is it just radially outward? this is important
tidal flame
Just ridially outward in my experience
dire steppe
disappointing
tidal flame
disappointing
Did you think about grouping them together?
mossy zinc
"The mortals have been polluting the seas with their trash, so I've collected some and turned it into a boon for you, little Hades. Have this Tempest Strike!"
That's what happens when you spin. You throw plastic trash at your opponents.
It makes them feel bad, and it makes you feel bad, and it does no damage.
dire steppe
true fable
i kind of like curse of longing on chaos shield ngl
also pc stonks on the rise
the lights are on
oh that's a terrible diag
dire steppe
that’s how i think poseidon should affect spear spin
true fable
what is going on
mossy zinc
lmao
dire steppe
why would it knock enemies radially outward
true fable
why do body slams deal more damage than a sword slice
dire steppe
i wonder if my version of poseidon spin would be useful for anything because it would sure as hell confuse everyone the first time they tried it
daring hedge
i mean the spin is just a hitbox really, they would have to add a directional element to it for that to work
mossy zinc
Oh yeah. @drowsy berry long discussion about Merciful End if you're interested. You said to ping you for stuff like this. #h1-high-heat-strategies message
Not that I expect major reworks.
mossy zinc
It steals life.
dire steppe
how does the massive spin hammer even work anyway
daring hedge
it's a big radial hitbox that's bigger with hades aspect
tidal flame
It spins the spear
dire steppe
how does massive spin make your spin radius larger than the length of your spear
daring hedge
are we going to open this can of video game logic worms
unreal pasture
magic
tidal flame
Where does Zag store all the fish he caught?
dire steppe
no, because then we get to the question of “why is the normal rail special not hazardous to zagreus”
unreal pasture
what if when you're playing hades in game... someone is playing you, irl simulator
mossy zinc
The Guan Yu main: It steals life.
The Hades main: it's a big radial hitbox that's bigger with hades aspect
The Spread Fire main: It spins the spear
dire steppe
the flurry jab main: what does the what do?
daring hedge
the vicious skewer main: how do i play spear
mossy zinc
The Guan Yu main and the Hades main together: What's a Flurry Jab?
unreal pasture
^ i'm in this boat
dire steppe
new hazard bomb buff idea: +100% base damage, increased to +400% if zag takes damage from it
also make it hurt more
even more damage modifier if zagreus dies from hazard bomb damage
mossy zinc
the vicious skewer main: how do i play spear
Baj said lightning can crit when you have Vicious Skewer.
And Thunder Flourish.
daring hedge
mossy zinc
m wondering if that's a bug, yeah. They had plenty of crit bugs with Vicious Skewer before.
true fable
are we really trying to add torque to a game with wonky enough physics
watching bablo im like
99% sure
there are some major bugs with rip current
dire steppe
we should make the spear spin just stop midway if you hit something heavy enough
true fable
that just havent been realized since no one uses rip current
dire steppe
like the skull crushers
mossy zinc
I use Rip Current, but I never look at damage numbers.
dire steppe
for what it’s worth i also have a physics final tomorrow, though it’s not a mechanics class
true fable
it's not the damage numbers but it makes enemy behavior very wonky
mossy zinc
F10 that then.
tidal flame
we should make the spear spin just stop midway if you hit something heavy enough
Physic Engine (Reworked): Zagreus now suffers severe brain damage if he dashes through walls or columns.
dire steppe
if i had my way, magnetized cutter would only work on enemies with metal armor
dire steppe
> **Physic Engine (Reworked):** Zagreus now suffers severe brain damage if he da...
eurydice cements her place in the meta once again
mossy zinc
No, she takes root.
true fable
breaking wave kinda has similar slingshotting effects so im wondering if it's related
tidal flame
If you ever feels useless, remember there is a staircase leading to Eurydice place.
tidal flame
No, like inside the chamber
There is a staircase that you never use because you always dash through it.
unreal pasture
Does she not have legs? Are they roots? am I lacking critical information?
I've never looked at her model closely...
tidal flame
She's a tree bro
dire steppe
what exactly is “Serrated Point” supposed to mean anyway
unreal pasture
I knew she was a dryad but...
tidal flame
She gives you an Acorn
dire steppe
like i get what they were going for but
waxen relic
what exactly is “Serrated Point” supposed to mean anyway
it's a real world thing i think
mossy zinc
It means your Dash-Strike hits three times.
unreal pasture
this doesn't preclude ... mythological forms ... or something?
true fable
it's serrated
tidal flame
Used to be called Serrated Edge
tidal flame
Like Double Edge
true fable
serrated shlice
tidal flame
Idk why they changed that tbh
dire steppe
why did they change it from something that made sense to something that didn’t
unreal pasture
A serrated blade is supposed to cut multiple times
tidal flame
Serrated Edge sounds cooler
mossy zinc
Serrated is Ancient Greek for "hits three times".
daring hedge
She's a tree bro
lmao this delivery
mossy zinc
I didn't know she was a tree bro, I thought she was a tree sis.
dire steppe
the spearpoint probably isnt serrated because that isn’t even something that makes sense
unreal pasture
the spearpoint probably isnt serrated because that isn’t even something that mak...
apparently they exist... serrated spear points
waxen relic
not my mothertongue - don't really care about actual meaning
dire steppe
i see i just googled it although i mean like the edge of it is serrated not the tip
daring hedge
rip and tear, as doom guy would say
unreal pasture
It didn't make sense to me... then I thought of spear fishers... and those tend to be barbed
dire steppe
that looks like it hits more than 3 times, where can i get that hammer
dire steppe
Serrated Point: Your Dash-Strike hits 15 times, but you have -50% movement speed and your dash has 0 Range.
daring hedge
there's spear points just for piercing and hitting a specific weak point and spears for tearing flesh and just causing damage (or catching on it like with fishing)
mossy zinc
No, it's just . . . it just hits a ton of times. There's no downside.
tidal flame
spoilers: Guan Yu is top tier.
What happened to Fists?
daring hedge
i'm excited for the next test branch where serrated point disables dash entirely
it's unusable
dire steppe
in the rigged test branch exclusive access sends you to an alternate version of the biome with better rewards
every room reward is erebus gate level stuff
proud jay
there are some major bugs with rip current
Whats the bug
dire steppe
second wave now gives +20 knockback instead of +1
proud jay
It's just super strong with poms on call and wave pounding
It pulls enemies to you also
mossy zinc
What happened to Fists?
A whole lot of nerfs to my build and honestly at this point I just want to start every run with the Eternal Rose, so I pick aspects where that works best.
proud jay
It's in the tooltip
dire steppe
Support Fire: You suddenly find yourself sympathizing with arsonists.
tidal flame
S tier pun, now get out
mossy zinc
Support Fire (Artemis): 🔥 "How can I be of assistance to you today?"
mossy zinc
My option select is I don't do speedruns, so I can just say I wasn't trying.
dire steppe
if i had my way the game would be unplayable
i would change every legendary and duo to be as stupid as possible
tidal flame
I saw that on the leaderboard.
That's cold.
dire steppe
oh you took second wave? guess you’re never seeing that enemy again
cedar thistle
i wish. Always feels good when you splash an enemy out of the barge of death.
dire steppe
you... can do that?
tidal flame
you... can do that?
dire steppe
Curse of Longing: Zagreus gains double benefit from all of Aphrodite’s boons, but acquires Doom status equal to 2% of his max HP when he realizes he will never get to be with Aphrodite (i.e. every time one of the boons triggers).
mossy zinc
Yeah, because she's already with me. 
dire steppe
why hello there little godling
rancid stirrup
Curse of Longing: enemies hit by your charm effects has their model stretch, widening their hurtbox
dire steppe
LOL
tidal flame
So... Tangler from Gungeon?
dire steppe
third wave (prereqs: second wave AND huge catch)
your knockback effects now work on walls, traps, and obstacles. wall slams deal 5x damage when you slam walls into enemies instead.
true fable
why does windows take so long to download ahhhhhh
i just want to do 45 achilles so i can also not record it
:^)
tidal flame
Downloading Windows weirdchamp
true fable
im just making the installation media
dire steppe
calculated risk: you are more aware of the projectiles in the area, but you choose to get hit anyway
actually, that’s not even different from how it currently works
true fable
also super glad i didnt preorder 2077 at this point
tidal flame
Preorder omega weirdchamp
dire steppe
oh god the new worst duo could be crystal clarity: you can no longer see your crystal beams
tidal flame
says the guy who bought Hades in EA
Calculated Risk, enemies projectiles are slower.
gets hit anyway
The risk is calculated but boy I'm bad at math.
true fable
im just thinking of the bird meme
tidal flame
Bird meme?
true fable
i guess so
schad i shopped for bought assembled and booted up a new computer before switch got cross save
lmao
any day now
rain sedge
we live in a society
where cyberpunk is released before cross save
what's your spec bright? What you gonna play first
static plover
honestly I'm okay with that, I'd rather cross saves be implemented when they're 100% ready
true fable
so i can record high heat finally
rain sedge
valhalla? it was fine
true fable
just got titanfall 2
been playing rogue legacy 2 as well
also been told to play a lot of slay the spire
rain sedge
I got titanfall 2 and never played it more than 2 hours
rain sedge
transistor is the best of SGG games, very pog
true fable
maybe i'll get that sneaky steam return
static plover
games exist outside of Bastion, Transistor, Pyre and Hades 😱 blasphemy
true fable
it didnt really click for me tbh
not yet at least
i just got to home base for the first time
rain sedge
I still play transistor songs a decade after its release
static plover
we ain't in 2024 yet Schad 😛
rain sedge
which is about the right order with games tbh
oh transistor was in 2014?
I must have gotten old
rain sedge
tbh I'd still play the songs in 2024
static plover
same thh
rain sedge
I wanna thank darren and ashley but feels kinda creepy DMing them
vital grove
Play Sekiro if you haven't 😁
true fable
im down
rain sedge
isn't that PS exclusive? or did I remember it wrong
vital grove
It's on PC
vital grove
Being a badass ninja warrior is not for everyone. 😉
vital grove
I don't think the two games have much in common
gaunt fiber
Hesitation is defeat
vital grove
Dead Cells might be your jam if you like Hades
Roguelite, extremely difficult, cool vibes
proud jay
more 40 heat, in case anyone is still interested in that
true fable
anyone with any experience building PCs wanna help with a quickish thing
gaunt fiber
I built mine but honestly I just followed the instructions lol
rain sedge
have you tried googling it xD
mossy zinc
anyone with any experience building PCs wanna help with a quickish thing
What's up?
true fable
i'll DM
rain sedge
I bet nya's gonna troll you
mossy zinc
unreal pasture
everyone has their off days
gaunt fiber
hm...
rain sedge
can you imagine?
I'm trying but it's really hard
sly remnant
i missed bablo stream. what was he experimenting with?
rain sedge
i missed bablo stream. what was he experimenting with?
he was experimenting dying in butterfly chamber on achilles, out of all aspect, on streak #10
I did not see that coming
mossy zinc
@gaunt fiber congratulations!
mossy zinc
astaos actually a good player
He's been a good player.
gaunt fiber
I want to upload it
formal gust
am I a good player
mossy zinc
Nyaanyaa*
rain sedge
@gaunt fiber how does it feel to get praised by nya?
gaunt fiber
I can't describe
formal gust
I crave validation
rain sedge
I crave validation
isnt that why we all are in this channel
post high heat runs for validation from other people
sly remnant
you are a good player cin
mossy zinc
am I a good player
Have you done high heat mirrorless?
formal gust
not yet
mossy zinc
Then no.
rain sedge
I'll do 40 mirrorless to get up to speed with you then astaos
sly remnant
ah the pact bias
formal gust
mirrorless but without RI4
gaunt fiber
I'll do 40 mirrorless to get up to speed with you then astaos
Do it!
formal gust
with rama maybe
gaunt fiber
I got my clear after 7 tris I think
basically getting charged skewer
but I made it consistently to Elysium without it
mossy zinc
@daring hedge your chance to do 41 mirrorless Guan Yu first try.
sly remnant
isn't technically the way to play mirrorless with a no darkness mirror
since you still get the rerolls
mossy zinc
Hm?
formal gust
you also need more heat
sly remnant
off of keys
mossy zinc
You get rerolls from key chambers either way, whether you put anything into the talent or not.
sly remnant
oh TIL
formal gust
are they authority by default
sly remnant
ye i assume authority
mossy zinc
They're whatever talent you've selected.
sly remnant
ah
formal gust
oh
sly remnant
so true mirrorless is only first run
mossy zinc
The rerolls are from a House Contractor upgrade.
sly remnant
mmmm
i'm pretty sure i got that contractor upgrade before i unlocked the talent with keys
formal gust
rama seems pretty good for mirrorless
sly remnant
and it didn't do anything
mossy zinc
It works without the talent.
solemn pulsar
I have a run on the spreadsheet. Does this mean that I'm famous now
sly remnant
even with the talent not even shown on the mirror?
sly remnant
are you sure?
mossy zinc
Yes, I am.
sly remnant
maybe i just didn't notice
solemn pulsar
yeah I can confirm that I had it before I unlocked the last talents and i was like "wtf is this dice for"
gaunt fiber
Yeah it's contractor stuff
formal gust
I probably won't record high heat stuff unless it's really good
gaunt fiber
Honestly my 40 run is worth uploading just so you can laugh at my Hades fight
solemn pulsar
I thought I couldn't use it because the option didn't show up on the boon menu, but it does default to authority until you unlock + switch to persuasion
sly remnant
ok got it
mossy zinc
It used to be that it worked even without having the talent unlocked, but if you turned on RI1+, it didn't work, so m 100% sure of that. And ability to swap to get Persuasion rerolls from those chambers even with RI1+ on was added after user feedback from either Wriste13 or bablo asking for that. Don't remember who.
ripe crane
I'm guessing y'all turn off lc4 for mirrorless
sly remnant
nyaanyaa doesn't cuz she's insane
mossy zinc
Guan Yu with LC4 is actually fine.
ripe crane
Tru
sly remnant
ye i guess guan yu is an exception
gaunt fiber
yeah it's fine
mossy zinc
I don't like how you all so readily agree m insane.
sly remnant
GY is definitely a weapon designed with the pact in mind
gaunt fiber
Well I tried it so I can tell
mossy zinc
You tried it so you can tell m insane?
rain sedge
hi crepes