all aspects is already such a slog
#h1-high-heat-strategies
true fable
honest kernel
Gilga being added at 1.0 screws with that yeah
true fable
not a fan of any run that requires a bio break
proud jay
no it wasn't a speedrun
true fable
helth
proud jay
already did 32 heat all weapons
proud jay
i love marathon categories
true fable
you think if bablo dies he just wakes up from a pool of blood in his living room
honest kernel
^
daring hedge
which i haven't really done yet
honest kernel
Also I'd need to relearn other weapons
proud jay
@daring hedge do you actually play all aspects? i've always thought of you as more of a specialist
true fable
ive been saying tailesque stream when for months now
proud jay
not doubting that
daring hedge
<@!164508146746785792> do you actually play all aspects? i've always thought of ...
i do specialize in a couple but i can run all aspects pretty comfortably around 32 or 40
proud jay
i just think hades & rama
alright
well yeah 32 and 40 just require general knowledge
honest kernel
^ pretty much this when i did my 40 heat attempts
When half of them ended up just using Athena call lmao
sly remnant
one day i'll do 40 on all aspects
daring hedge
i think i get kinda caught up in playing rama and hades more than others because i'm so comfortable with them and i personally enjoy them a lot
but when i make myself do other aspects at high heat i can hold my own
sly remnant
i actually used to be a fists main until i found beo
true fable
tbh i just ended up abusing smoldering air and second wind zeus call when i did my 32s
sly remnant
and before that i was all about bow
true fable
dodge is quite good
honest kernel
Second Wind is nuts
proud jay
i try to pick a call before going for hermes
true fable
second wind lambent plume was my strat for the no dash meme races this morning
daring hedge
it's pretty easy to have 100% uptime on second wind with lessers and quick enough aspects yeah
super fun
honest kernel
I'm going to have a really hot take here : Movement Speed is an underrated bonus to have
proud jay
the thing that sucks about no dash is that you are sometimes forced to dash in styx
daring hedge
anyone tried a no dash 32/40 heat run yet
i would but my favorite aspects involve a ridiculous amount of dashing both
sly remnant
is that a hot take?
true fable
you can rebind dash in styx and eurydice
honest kernel
Probably ?
daring hedge
hades spear without dash spins? ew. rama without dash-strikes? gross
sly remnant
i like greater haste
honest kernel
^
true fable
just play zag bow flurry fire or something
honest kernel
"Oh no, a boon isn't top tier, it's not worth picking up"
That's what it feels like when people get Hermes lol
daring hedge
you can rebind dash in styx and eurydice
now i'm thinking about that person who tried no dash and eurydice destroyed them
true fable
and the eurydice clause was added
still think double nova world splitter goes dummy
that combo is so satisfying
but only something you do if you cant dash
cedar thistle
get dash nova hammer. "technically didn't dash"
daring hedge
oh true, or abusing achilles special
true fable
or bull rush
honest kernel
Bull Rush still gets rekt by Eurydice I think
Not sure it passes that opening at the end
daring hedge
eurydice is the hardest miniboss for no dash
daring hedge
i would love to hear her dialogue for that
sly remnant
i passed thru my first eurydice
didn't see the side thing and thought it was like a fountain room
north dove
died to last phase of Hades with Hades spear 
Teach me your ways Tailesque
north dove
I keep whiffing the spin timing and end up just cancelling it
true fable
i just lose time in elysium too much on that thing
north dove
especially against greatshields yeah
north dove
🤷♂️
true fable
LOL
honest kernel
Not that much really
true fable
retrash i meant to ask you
how do you know when dads gonna do his swing swing throw vs swing swing spin
/does it matter
north dove
it doesn't matter, I just always assume he's going to throw
true fable
👍
honest kernel
Spin's reactable
Spear throw isn't
Also Phase 3 just throws those patterns out of the window
honest kernel
Me in phase 3 : "Please let there not be an urn there"
true fable
phase 3 brightness strat might be the way 
north dove
yup or hope you didn't get into urn range when he does his laser attack
honest kernel
That timer tho https://gyazo.com/e822a18c0762d922bfaa14e65de81b59
loud coral
Still warming up to EM4 right now, and man it feels weird having to basically re-learn the boss
I was barely surviving on overtime with EM3 45 heat so I don't think I'm beating EM4 TD3 on 50 for a while lmao
north dove
You usually want one or the other on high heat unless you're really confident in your abilities to clear rooms really quickly.
loud coral
Guess I'll experiment with the heat settings, I'm planning to dodge RI with EM4 but I'm not sure if it's worth it or not
north dove
at 50 it's either RI, AP or EM4 so choose your poison
loud coral
Torn between RI and EM4, I'll do a few 50 heat runs with both and see which one is "better"
sly remnant
Whats the aspect?
loud coral
Achilles, prioritizing Zeus on special and Phalanx Shot
loud coral
Too stubborn to back down at this point but I'll probably end up using Hades when I give up
sly remnant
Lol unless you are tailesque hades isn't easy either
Hey man we need more Achilles runners. You do you man
loud coral
I think it's kinda insane just how more unorthodox my builds became from 40 to 45
40 heat was a really solid build with Phalanx Shot and some cast buffs, 45 heat build was this nonsense https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/779384657991958553/unknown.png
Still hesistant to turn on RI just because it'll make UC terrible
honest kernel
https://gyazo.com/506a7605b48276180c264f8564550c1d I swear this is a practise run to relearn Achilles, PLEASE GAME
sly remnant
RI on a cast weapon is pretty much a no
loud coral
https://gyazo.com/506a7605b48276180c264f8564550c1d I swear this is a practise ru...
You got Flurry Jab, there's no backing out of this one
sly remnant
I think Baj's pact is pretty much your only option. Can make a decision whether you like DC2 or CP2 more
I like CP2 because DC2 will slow your clear speed by a lot
*room clear speed
Itll make bosses a lot slower obviously
loud coral
I use Zeus a lot so I might do DC1 CP1 or DC2 CP0
sly remnant
I mean spear REALLY struggles on bosses
Cp2 def makes that experience worth
*worse
sly remnant
Oof. Its gonna be close baj
I am gonna pray for that one thing that you can't say or you'll scare it
north dove
<8 min to clear Styx and beat EM4 Hades 😬
loud coral
seems fair to me
sly remnant
Ye on spear its rough
sly remnant
OH WAIT YOU HAVE 3 DDS
loud coral
Oh you're set
honest kernel
Let's hope
sly remnant
He needs that thing I think
loud coral
Oh absolutely
honest kernel
I have Quick Reload
sly remnant
The hades fight is gonna be so long
honest kernel
So I have some damage
loud coral
Had one of the most godlike 45 runs I've done ended by that
sly remnant
Lol I had a 50 ended by a 4 sack
loud coral
Can't wait to get 3 bloodstones from Chaos then get a 5sack
loud coral
I mean what are your options?
honest kernel
Sold Zeus aid : T'was that, Quick Reload or Greatest Reflex
Also I kinda used the Skull Earing in Asphodel ?
Woops
loud coral
Also I'm guessing you used up Athena keepsake
honest kernel
Ye
sly remnant
Do you have proud bearing
honest kernel
Well I don't have a call anymore lol
sly remnant
Hades tho
honest kernel
Not quite
loud coral
No proud bearing but Hades call is gonna work for those bursts with the cast
sly remnant
No its not
honest kernel
And Skull Earing's gone
sly remnant
Ye so skull earring won't do you any good
loud coral
You should be good to go if you get the thing
sly remnant
Itshappening.jpg
sly remnant
Yr
true fable
i havent been keeping up
sly remnant
Ye
true fable
jeez baj
loud coral
Can still maybe salvage the run on 4 health if it's a 3sack
sly remnant
You have 3dds
true fable
where did all your boons go sir
sly remnant
Def need the 3 tho
loud coral
3sacks are the least likely for me
north dove
Could be doable with 3-4 minutes on timer
honest kernel
https://gyazo.com/cf93e5ecc0716ffe74eed0c9b5864951 Minirooms were annoying
loud coral
2:52 
honest kernel
Yeah
sly remnant
Its possible
north dove
EM4 takes me 5 minutes on the average run so maybe
honest kernel
Was a 3-sack
sly remnant
Go for it all
honest kernel
2:16 minutes
loud coral
Still possible
sly remnant
Ouch
loud coral
hopefully
honest kernel
Don't think this is it
loud coral
At least it’s practice
sly remnant
If you don't get hit you can live forever in overtime
sly remnant
Rough
honest kernel
Dad call didn't add much damage
Was better off with Skull Earing
Oh well, for a literal second attempt I'll take it lmao
But I haven't fought EM4 in forever
Soooo
sly remnant
You didn't have skull earring anymore did you?
honest kernel
Nope
sly remnant
Oof
honest kernel
Keepsakes went Athena -> Skull Earing -> Accorn -> Dad keepsake
Wanted to preserve the DDs lmao
Should have kept the earings
sly remnant
Ye but thats asking a lot
honest kernel
Hmm Hmm
sly remnant
And I assume no sure footing?
sly remnant
RIP
honest kernel
... Now my nickname's a lie ain't it
loud coral
Feels like if you ran Zeus on either the attack or special then used DC2 you could've saved some time
honest kernel
Probably
In fact the first run I did that lol
I think I died to Hydra like a dunce
Or was it the furies ?
Probably the later
sly remnant
Ye I'm not sure spear wants CP2. Spear really struggles with boss fights
honest kernel
I wanted to see how fast I could clear rooms lmao
sly remnant
Lmao very fast i imagine
honest kernel
Not actually get to Hades himself
true fable
did you die to dad?
honest kernel
Ye
loud coral
Yep
honest kernel
Phase 2, was about to timeout too
true fable
thats how my 49 chaos woulda gone if i made it that far
loud coral
Still a really good run, if you got the 2sack then it def would've been possible
sly remnant
I would really like it if TD3 guaranteed 2 sac
true fable
what did you start?
true fable
okey
loud coral
Sack RNG is really unfun as it is, forcing 2sack on TD3 would be nice and would make you think about which 2 tunnels you'd go down
sly remnant
Even TD3 guaranteeing a 2 sac wouldn't fix all of TD3's problems at high heat but it definitely fixes the most frustrating one
honest kernel
Witch noises intensifies
loud coral
Sacks are right before the final boss too so it's really not fair to have the fate of your run be decided at the very end
true fable
ketchup you know more about achilles than i do
i liked artemis start when i did my 40 heat runs
for the flexibility
thoughts?
loud coral
Artemis on what?
loud coral
Dream build for me is Artemis attack, Zeus special, Athena cast, Artemis Aid
Zeus is really just there to handle DC
honest kernel
Also I'm probably gonna experiment with Zeus special start
honest kernel
Hmm Hmm
sly remnant
I think that is supposed to say Athena @loud coral
honest kernel
Achilles special is super fast now
loud coral
Oh right lmao
honest kernel
Wonder how I can implement that new change into my gameplay
loud coral
Though Aphro might work too for Heart Rend
honest kernel
That's an option too
honest kernel
But the plan is probably gonna be something like switch to DC2 -> Take Zeus Special first -> Athena Cast second
... Or maybe even Artemis attack
loud coral
Lightning Phalanx does wonders, makes Styx a total joke
honest kernel
I'm well aware of that
I think either my 50 or 55 heat clear uses it to great effect on Zeus Shield lol
sly remnant
Lightning phalanx is so insanely good....when you get it
honest kernel
Also probably could Consider switching to the regen cast
Since I used the static one
loud coral
You haven't been doing that?
honest kernel
Nope
loud coral
honest kernel
As I said, wanted to see how fast I could clear rooms lol
loud coral
Stygian makes bosses a lot better for casts
honest kernel
Regen cast is for bosses yeah
sly remnant
Which Achilles spear really struggles with
honest kernel
And honestly probably works better for Phalanx Shot anyways
Will mess with that a bit
loud coral
It works great, using Achilles with Stygian has made me not use Infernal in a long while
honest kernel
I just default to Infernal because if I get a decent cast on non-cast aspects, I'll usually use it in rooms
So might as well be able to burst it 3 times
Altho I'm kinda used to RI3 lol
And having 1, regular cast
The pact I'm probably going to mess around with, assuming I play around more with Achilles
... Is the link dead
loud coral
nah
edgy arrow
it’s working
honest kernel
Then it's just me
edgy arrow
what cast are you using?
loud coral
Looks good to me, you're really just using Zeus special to rush in for the damage and get the duo so it'll work for DC
loud coral
Basically the problem is just with biomes now
honest kernel
I've had enough 55 and 57 runs with RI3
loud coral
Should be good to go though, the lower health on bosses is gonna save a lot of time
honest kernel
I think biomes are going to be ok
loud coral
I used to run DC2 all the time for absolutely no reason, still no idea why I did that
honest kernel
I turn it on and off depending on how fast I want my rooms to be
loud coral
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/759936836004347944/unknown.png This is what I did for my first 5 heat run rofl
DC1 HS EM2
honest kernel
bruh
true fable
fam
honest kernel
Also nice hunting blades
edgy arrow
i mean, you had hunting blades at 5 heat
didn’t really matter the pacts, you were gonna win
honest kernel
"Ok let me just check my older screenshots real qui- oh it's all in french"
This looks so off
What the frick
loud coral
Imagine having more than 9 boons
edgy arrow
idk if i even have any screenshots that early, but when i was doing low heats i thought athena dash was trash
so prolly all my builds back then were pro level
loud coral
God I remember using Poseidon and worshipping him like a 2sack
Now I barely even take him outside some very niche runs
true fable
PS is for nerds
honest kernel
... I wonder why I went straight to 50 heat lmao
For relearning a weapon
I should be taking a break, dammit, not re-stress myself with this nonsense.
I'm addicted I swear
honest kernel
... Hoping for late fountain into Patty for you
loud coral
@honest kernel Run 25, 32, or 40 if you wanna re-learn it, much more lenient than 50
true fable
3 weaps it is LMAO
honest kernel
Considering I didn't go higher than 40 for the other weapons
I should have just stayed at that
My mind's all screwed
loud coral
40's the limit I'll do with shield for a while, might push for 45 fists or Arthur if I feel like it though
true fable
died to swordsmen 
45 arthur sounds miserable ketchup
whats the highest you went on achilles
you're a hunting blades kinda person right
loud coral
Highest is 45 right now, I used to run Hunting Blades but I'm using Phalanx Shot a lot more now
loud coral
40 Arthur wasn't too bad, I'm sure slapping on a few more conditions won't be the worst
honest kernel
... As long as you avoid FO2
BP Speeders will kill you
Straight up
That's how my 45 heat Arthur runs went lmao
loud coral
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/781234056779005992/unknown.png yeah about that
honest kernel
You madlad
loud coral
My previous run before the win was an ME Arthur run and it actually went well
honest kernel
What does ME not work on lmao
loud coral
Until HS did its thing
honest kernel
Even works on bow for crying out loud
true fable
where would you add more heat
HS?
then maybe CP i guess
hmmmmmmm
im scared of arthur 40
loud coral
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/723559673004949564/781022461897867295/WHY.mp4 This is why you don't run HS on 40 kids
honest kernel
WhyDidYouDashThere.jpg
For real tho, yeah
Happens
⚱️ Are scary
... Which is funny to say because I haven't been hit by one lately
Probably jinxed myself right now lol
mossy zinc
If you die to Lernie, you can't die to urns.
edgy arrow
i got hit by three at once last run
mossy zinc
Works every time.
true fable
factual
twilit orbit
HS lernie is actually much scarier of a fight than it has any right to be
my brain always thinks lernie = easiest boss
honest kernel
I'm at a point where the main head ramming into me because it felt like it is the scariest part of the fight for me
twilit orbit
but I've been dangerously close to wiping in that fight surprisingly often
honest kernel
Lava's whatever
twilit orbit
its just a lot of small hits in that fight that I dont really pay attention to
but then i randomly find that my entire hp bar has disappeared somehow
true fable
- avoid main head
- avoid lava
honest kernel
I try to keep an eye out on most of the heads as a main priority
true fable
pink head does a lot of damage if you arent paying attn
honest kernel
... Probably the best way to induce heart attacks LOL
true fable
paying attention to the heads is good 😛
twilit orbit
yeah being near the main head is scary
though you do have to also watch for the head slams that the smaller heads do sometimes
i think its blue heads?
honest kernel
Blues and sometimes the Yellow ones
true fable
yeah
honest kernel
I think ?
true fable
purple are honestly the most annoying miniheads for me
honest kernel
^
true fable
since they retreat over lava
edgy arrow
i’m so impressed y’all actually know lernie’s colour code
sly remnant
You know what I really hate tho? When you get 3 pink heads and they all hangout in the lava and make me go chase them for the first 10 seconds of the fight
honest kernel
The ammount of times I got rammed by the Main blue head made me remember the color code lol
true fable
like they must have evasive behavior where they cluster around trap damage
ive noticed that for a number of enemies
sly remnant
Blue was the first one I learned because of how much I hated it
true fable
maybe the purple heads are similar in that respect
honest kernel
that has to be coded right
Yup, it's a thing. Most notable in Erebus
twilit orbit
wait has anyone else randomly encountered an erebus witch that would constantly just run behind pillars
like they cant even shoot me there
but they still hide there
honest kernel
Oh every Witch acts like that
sly remnant
Yep. Erebus witches and splitters play peekaboo
edgy arrow
yeah that’s intentional
true fable
yeah they do that so you chase them
edgy arrow
erebus witches are such a pain lol
true fable
and then they blast you in the face with a full volley
twilit orbit
huh, I guess ive only really noticed it in erebus
true fable
as you round the corner
twilit orbit
i spent way too long chasing a speeder witch around the pillars once and it really stuck with me
honest kernel
"I can't kill you, but he can" Points at the timer
sly remnant
Lmfao baj
What about a heat setting
That forced you to fight Charon at some point during the run
Like it would have to be restricted to elysium
sly remnant
Oh for sure
honest kernel
Like, specifically, when do you see him
sly remnant
Like maybe you see the bag in every mid shop and if you never fight him he confronts you before heroes
edgy arrow
rip if you time out in tartarus tho lol
sly remnant
I'm just trying to figure out ways to rewards having a good build....since the pact kinda doesn't normally
honest kernel
Same for Elysium too
sly remnant
It would be a weird pact
Also Charon fight should pause timer but thats another discussion
Basically I want a pact rhat rewards having a good build.. and makes Charon actually playable
Because I love the fight
honest kernel
Just having the option of fighting Charon without running out of time would be an interesting gamble
Because as it is now, it can literally lead you to your loss. That, or you were winning hard anyways
sly remnant
Ye Charon is definition of win more
And its sad to see such a cool fight go to waste most of the time
true fable
meme is in the eyes of the beholder
look in a perfect world any% meg romance would be the most prestigious SRcom category
but the world we live in is flawed
and anyheat runs rampant
sly remnant
Lol I've played my fair share of charon%
Nothing respectable tho worth putting on the boards
I actually took a 50 heat Charon fight in tartarus on Friday
honest kernel
How did that went
sly remnant
Died to timer of course
true fable
you got it the first time
sly remnant
I had blackout and +1 cast in tartarus in the Charon fight
And it still wasn't enough
To make it worth the time
I was like
This is a throw
But I have to try it
true fable
i need to stop alt tabbing while mid run
i loaded back in and was like oh im playing eris
honest kernel
lmao
sly remnant
Ye I think the Charon fight took like a full minute
true fable
i'd actually be more willing to do beo 50
edgy arrow
yeah ngl i agree it would be nice to be able to fight charon without screwing the run
true fable
LOL
it's just not something you can do on any "serious" category
which sucks because one of the more entertaining fights in the game is relegated to casual play
sly remnant
No
sly remnant
^exactly
honest kernel
'cause his HP pool is static for all the run
sly remnant
The benefits are....minimal to say the least
honest kernel
And so is his damage
mossy zinc
His damage is kinda ridiculous.
true fable
HL5 swipe is like 100 damage?
true fable
nah it's just cuz he's buff
mossy zinc
100, yeah.
true fable
we've been over this
charons jacked
think about it
you start the run
he's in tartarus
sly remnant
Ye. Its still a super dangerous fight for most aspects and the payoff is just win more
sly remnant
Pausing timer still makes the Charon fight pretty much impossible. But it is atleast possible
mossy zinc
It would be worth it in Tartarus, but that's also where you're practically guaranteed to run out of time with TD3 if you fight him.
true fable
idk i dont think it'd be thatd bad if it paused timer
is he really that scary?
it's been a while since i did that fight but he felt kinda free ngl
honest kernel
Little room for error is the scary part
sly remnant
And his waves are traps yea?
Or do they just feel likenthey are hitting you for a million
honest kernel
Reminds me of the Shopkeeper fight in One Step From Eden
Super scary fight, but consistent
Also little room for error
At 'least in that game the payoff's insane lol
sly remnant
Yea thats the thing
honest kernel
The equivalent would be like getting 3 boons in Hades
sly remnant
300 gold and a discount
Its a glorified styx miniboss
For about 10 times the danger
mossy zinc
It's an Ocean's Bounty is what it is. 
sly remnant
Lmao she is kinda right
Oh my god
How is Charon oceans bounty that drains a minute of your time
sly remnant
Ok screw it I'm gonna do some Charon fights
muted orchid
Anyone willing to explain to me how RNG manipulation works in this game? Just watched a 57 heat run and couldn’t really find a solid explanation
sly remnant
The 57 heat run was not rng manipulation
honest kernel
Was it my run LOL
muted orchid
Well the guy that did the run said it himself
honest kernel
Oh
muted orchid
Atleast the one I watched
true fable
i havent seen patty in like 15 runs
honest kernel
That's the Seeded Chaos Shield run
mossy zinc
ForgottenKane's 57 from Early Access was routed all the way through Elysium.
true fable
yeah who is doing the run
muted orchid
EEEdoman is his YouTube channel name
mossy zinc
"Who", there are only three 57 Heat clears lol.
muted orchid
It was pre 1.0
mossy zinc
yeah who is doing the run
That's Kane, yeah.
sly remnant
Pretty sure tail has a dry unseeded 57 heat run
honest kernel
Me, Tail and Kane
sly remnant
On youtubr
mossy zinc
Did not mean to reply there, no idea how that happened lol.
muted orchid
Was it my run LOL
Wait where can I find your run
honest kernel
So, quick explanation : Many actions in this game will "roll" the random number generator
Be it destroying an Urn, using a Cast, modifying your health, etc.
mossy zinc
High Heat Leaderboard is pinned here. You can find the runs there with links to videos.
honest kernel
You just do your best to keep track of said actions to manipulate your outcome, while keeping the savefile in the case things go wrong
And eventually, you try and do the whole run in one shot, under the same conditions
That's how Seeded runs work in this game, which is very similar to Routed
muted orchid
Wow, so in order to do this you just have to keep trying things over and over and hope to get what you want?
rancid stirrup
wait breaking urn modifies the room?
that sounds painful
true fable
not quite, after a while you have a "route" that you can follow and get mostly the same result
honest kernel
Even going through the Shades in chamber 1 does that
muted orchid
Yeah like breaking urn by urn to see what changes
sly remnant
okay okay so the ultimate charon pact is.....
honest kernel
Casting is usually the straight forward method to move the RNG
Just so long as you don't break too many urns
Also I think programs exists now to keep track of said RNG
true fable
if you want to see some maximum routing stuff there's vorime's 4 minute pre 1.0 speedruns
true fable
the old nemesis route is still on a google doc lmao
sly remnant
HL5 FO2 CP2 yea? thats all it is?
honest kernel
TD3 
muted orchid
Is there a reason why there haven’t been runs above 57? I know it’s really hard at high heat but it just seems like a random number
honest kernel
DC2 if you really want to max it
honest kernel
Is there a reason why there haven’t been runs above 57? I know it’s really hard ...
Because outside of the Seeded 57 heat run, which was done on a weapon aspect that got nerfed significantly on 1.0, There aren't many people trying to break the heat level that high. In fact, my clear and Tail's were on the same day, December 4th
Super recent
cedar thistle
it's not random at all. it's everything maxed out but EM3 and RI3
sly remnant
me in room 1: why do i have 3 boons i can choose onscreen
true fable
let's do this subtractively - so 63 is max heat on a non hell mode save. You're most likely not taking RI4, so that's 61. then from there it's just 4 heat
usually EM4 or RI levels
true fable
both you and tailesque used TD3 right
honest kernel
It's literally my pact but he used Rama instead
true fable
oh lol
honest kernel
And went Shackles all the way
sly remnant
what was his time?
honest kernel
While I started Shackles and went Skull Earing in Asphodel
He ended up getting a 18:38 IGT or something like that
Mine was a 2 and a half seconds before the timer ran out lol
mossy zinc
57 was max heat in Early Access in normal mode. That's why Kane's is 57.
honest kernel
And RI4
honest kernel
Realistically, EM4, yes
Which I am absolutely NOT doing on Zeus Shield lol
Timer's already a pain
Rama could do it
mossy zinc
Fake casual player who tries "casual" 32 mirrorless.
true fable
complicated
honest kernel
... It's an interesting debate
true fable
so hell mode is currently not allowed on SR.com submissions
but it is allowed for the high heat spreadsheet submissions
subject to change when it comes to SR.com? was the impression i was under
honest kernel
But if you don't see Hellmode, it's because the runner didn't bother with a Hellmode Savefile. Grinding the game again for 1 heat is annoying
mossy zinc
It takes a long time to unlock everything again on a hell mode save. That's all there is to it really for high heat.
honest kernel
That or leaderboard shenanigans
true fable
yeah and we just acquired a community hell mode maxed save
mossy zinc
I could submit like 40 40+ runs in the time it takes me to unlock everything in Hell mode probably lol.
true fable
so there might be more hell mode runs now
mossy zinc
Maybe more.
true fable
imagine submitting runs
muted orchid
Is having a maxed save that important though?
sly remnant
crap i left stubborn defiance on
muted orchid
Don’t you just need like max mirror and some keepsakes
true fable
max mirror, keepsakes, aspects
mossy zinc
Summons.
honest kernel
Also most of the relevant story
true fable
summons yeah
cedar thistle
more minor, but maxed bounties increases chance for gold laurel rooms very slightly.
true fable
plus you need those sweet sweet borders
honest kernel
more minor, but maxed bounties increases chance for gold laurel rooms very sligh...
Wait what
That's news to me
cedar thistle
honest kernel
... Who actually checked that one
cedar thistle
the blood/daimond is counted as a "SuperMetaProgress". while darkness is "MetaProgress"
honest kernel
... Oh wow
cedar thistle
and only the later count towards the metaProgressChance
honest kernel
So it's technically bad for the speedrunning file, assuming you run a weapon without max bounties
But you also don't want your savefile to be too big because of load times for RTA runs
What the frick
cedar thistle
i looked through the code. i believe that article should be correct. But it's kinda convoluted tbh, and hard to understand.
mossy zinc
Btw no one has anything against seeded. We have a category on the leaderboard just for that.
true fable
zeus shield expert doesnt need a question mark my friend
honest kernel
... I may or may not have confidence issues
true fable
you are one of five people who has played this game who uses that weapon on a regular basis
sly remnant
Btw no one has anything against seeded. We have a category on the leaderboard ju...
i wish i was as optimistic about people's attitude as you are
mossy zinc
Same.
honest kernel
Is it Twitch Chat/Youtube Comments being weird as usual or something else
mossy zinc
The only thing people ever say is to keep the categories separate.
cedar thistle
grr the comments smh.
like i saw one "shouldn't be counted cause it pause so much in the fight" or something
honest kernel
Hey, pause buffering is a legit strat in speedruns
Don't see why Hades would be an exception
mossy zinc
Not running the category doesn't mean they have anything against people running it.
true fable
tailesque paused in his 56 heat clear but he said it was to calm down
which is understandable
honest kernel
I think it's moreso a lack of interest for it than anything
sly remnant
oh i agree but it does make you wonder why they aren't
true fable
yeah seeded is frickin hard lol
barely anyone wants to route anyheat, let alone high heat
sly remnant
maybe i'm just reading too much into it
mossy zinc
I have zero interest in seeded. The only reason I ever seeded was because they were not separated, and I don't self-sabotage if I want to be competitive.
honest kernel
Tools to do it aren't too well-known, reset heavy, yadayada
mossy zinc
Seeded is easier, 100%.
honest kernel
Things speedrunners already do, in Hades' current state for speedrunning
So why make it even more annoying
Altho I wonder how much the speedrunners care about the potential bad reception around seeded runs
I couldn't personnaly tell because I'm not really a speedrunner, just a high heat nut
mossy zinc
It's impossible to not route some of the run in seeded unless you one-shot the seeded.
sly remnant
the difference between seeded and unseeded is ultimately number of runs
and thats the part i don't like
mossy zinc
No, it isn't.
waxen relic
if the route to go for includes buying multiple Chaosgates at once it's hard to believe in one-shots or anything. It's clearly mapped out over many many tries.
sly remnant
seeded != routed
waxen relic
how do you differentiate
sly remnant
if you have ever watched a seeded run
it is very obvious
whereas a routed run
is essentially a script that has very weird very odd things in it
waxen relic
and between there's a whole lot of grey space
true fable
i think speedrunners are starting to like the idea of routed more and more
the more times you miss a PB because of room/sack RNG the more you appreciate something that eliminates RNG
sly remnant
the speedrun community will have to eventually adopt a 2 sack mod
they aren't there yet but they will eventually
mossy zinc
Every seeded run is at least partially routed if they didn't make it first or second run. That's just the reality of it.
I would restart a lot of runs when I was grinding 56 in the second chamber when I saw what enemies spawned because I knew what I was getting in the next 6+ chambers was garbage.
sly remnant
thats a minor optimization at best
mossy zinc
That's huge.
sly remnant
if all this channel cares about is the heat number
mossy zinc
Seeded you can start your run way different.
cedar thistle
might be minor for some. major for others. it's a whole huge grey area, it's simply easiest to lump them together.
waxen relic
Maybe we'll one day mod hades to have fixed seeds if that's somehow possible
sly remnant
in speedruns it makes sense for the categories to be separate
in straight heat records.....the difference is not near the same
mossy zinc
I had to reset for 2 hours to get a Charged Flight seed with AP2.
If I can get a Charged Flight seed with AP2 every time and know the next 10-ish chambers once I see chamber 2, that's a huge advantage over anyone trying the same heat unseeded.
sly remnant
well this is why AP2 is a problem not seeded versus unseeded
but i know we disagree on that
mossy zinc
It's just untrue that there is little difference. If there wasn't, we wouldn't all have run seeded before 1.0.
true fable
anyone else have this glitch where alecto doesnt drop rewards after you kill her
for like 10 seconds
sly remnant
i didn't say there isn't a difference
mossy zinc
I've had that before at Furies, yeah.
sly remnant
i said for heat records it shouldn't matter
true fable
ive only had it vs alecto
i think it does
we've seen some records where the hard cap is TD3
mossy zinc
Of course it matters when there's a clear difference.
true fable
routing means you can basically bypass TD3 as a restriction
static plover
There's also a 0.001% chance the sr community adopts the 2 sack mod for leaderboard runs
mossy zinc
well this is why AP2 is a problem not seeded versus unseeded
That's disregarding an actual in-game option (AP2) in favor of one that isn't (seeded).
true fable
all right
sly remnant
That's disregarding an actual in-game option (AP2) in favor of one that isn't (s...
we just aren't going to agree about the existence of AP2 so i'm not having this discussion
static plover
Rng is inherant to the game in a miltatude of forms, than rng, fountain chamber rng, npc room rng, chaos rng
true fable
AP2 is something you have to play around for unseeded though
seeding immediately gives you a competitive advantage
mossy zinc
^
true fable
and thus should be considered differently
sly remnant
then don't have AP2 🙂
static plover
Mmhm definitely
static plover
"just don't use it" isn't a good reason to not seperate seeded and unseeded
sly remnant
but this is my point. AP2 and even AP1 warp the game so much we can't even really consider running seeded as a category
becuase of what that 5 heat does to records
mossy zinc
That's the game.
sly remnant
but we don't
sly remnant
effin 32 heat speedrun gets run more than seeded
true fable
so go do seeded runs lol
mossy zinc
m not gonna redesign the game because a couple people want seeded in the same category as unseeded.
sly remnant
no one will respect my clear as much as if i did it unseeded
mossy zinc
¯_(ツ)_/¯
true fable
does that matter?
static plover
Just because something is run more or less doesn't mean anything tangable tbh
You want to run something, do it
sly remnant
"there's no bias against unseeded"
mossy zinc
I dunno. I don't watch 99.9% of runs anyway. So if you submit seeded or unseeded makes no difference to me. Whatever makes you happy.
lucid coyote
Seeded isn't run right now because we are finishing up tooling to make routing more accessible. I expect a lot more runs then. For now, unseeded is the most popular category, and that means when new runners start, they lean towards that
We are currently also working on a suite of mods that may eventually be approved for the leaderboards under a separate subcategory. It would add stuff like 2sack, togglable Than, and more consistent generation based on the starting seed (for racing purposes)
mossy zinc
Unseeded is also essentially "the game as designed" while seeded is exploiting a loophole. If more people are interested in unseeded at high heat, I think that just speaks for the game as they designed it being more appealing to most players.
If you do some cool seeded runs, maybe more people will do it.
Nobody did mirrorless at high heat until I put up some runs.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
static plover
Boonless at high heat is also getting some more traction as well now :3
mossy zinc
Yeah, for sure.
And we learn things from those runs that we can use in regular high heat.
true fable
they just test different skills IMO
mossy zinc
No one was using Shackle at high heat until we saw some boonless runs wrecking shop.
Well, there were like one or two fringe cases maybe.
sly remnant
i'm actually surprised it took us as long as it did
since like half of the pact is about not letting us have boons
mossy zinc
It was like always at the back of my mind as something I would get to testing for high heat eventually lol.
m not too surprised, there are so many things we haven't really tried yet. There are just so many combinations of boons and stuff that are possible.
sly remnant
it also unfortunately exacerbates the bias the pact already has against some aspects
mossy zinc
Eris was like one of the last aspects to do 40+ lol.
And no one was really using it for speedruns, either.
sly remnant
well sure people figure things out
that doesn't change the fact that shackle exacerbates the pacts already existing issues
mossy zinc
How does Shackle exacerbate issues?
sly remnant
it makes the disparity between boon reliant and non boon reliant aspects worse
mossy zinc
Would you rather it adds trap damage again?
sly remnant
no?
mossy zinc
But then it wouldn't make things worse.
sly remnant
lol
mossy zinc
I think you just really don't like AP. 
static plover
How does shackle in its current form make makes things worse?
sly remnant
the pact being biased against boon weapons is there with or without AP nyaa
mossy zinc
I know. I dropped Beowulf for a reason when 1.0 hit lol.
sly remnant
AP just makes it worse. which is my point. they compound on top of each other
mossy zinc
I don't have any issue with it, though. I think Beowulf is fine and the pact is fine.
true fable
im not really interested in 50+ on a weapon i dislike
sly remnant
talking about issues that are present in the game does not mean its invalid
it means its an issue and i'm raising it
whether SGG wants to do anything to it or not is up to them
true fable
there are definitely issues with the pact
mossy zinc
No, that it's an issue is your opinion. The game does not necessarily need perfect balance like that.
static plover
Given how the game is balanced (which is primarily between 0 - 20 heat), I don't see any major changes occuring with it
sly remnant
lol there are issues in every design and there are tradeoffs. it is an issue. whether its worth its tradeoffs are an opinion
true fable
again, i dont think every aspect was meant to push 55+ heat and that's ok with me
sly remnant
same i agree bright
true fable
that's not how the game is or should be designed
sly remnant
my issue relies entirely on the homogenizing of builds at 50 and 55+
mossy zinc
Really?
true fable
which you're arguing is because of AP and RI
i agree
AP and RI are not my favorite pacts
so i do not take them
if people arent impressed by the results of that then so be it
mossy zinc
50+ runs all have very unique builds each.
sly remnant
i want this game to have a long tail in terms of community engagement. as the community gets better and better we will push higher and higher heats. in its current state: ultra high-heat is very homogenized. Basically no build and pray you get some athena, zeus, and aphro. I don't want interest to fall off so i think there are some things that could be done to the pact to reward better builds and more efficient play
true fable
why do you think interest is falling off?
sly remnant
interest falling off over time is completely natural for a game. I still think this game has growing and learning to do in it
i am worried that homogenization at low heat and high heat accelerate the fall off
mossy zinc
We have Blade Dash builds at 50+.
true fable
high heat has never nor will ever be the most popular sub category. It is a masochistic grind that 99% of players have 0 interest in
it will draw in the people who are interested in that
sly remnant
nyaa having blade dash in a build does not make it a blade dash build
static plover
And thus the game is balanced for the majority (which is 0 - 20 heat)
mossy zinc
We have less than 10 players who have a recorded 50+.
true fable
having blade dash in a build means that it was a build that has blade dash
true fable
you're moving the goalposts
blade dash was super important for getting out of tartarus
mossy zinc
Which btw is 5 more than we had 40+ clears half a year ago.
true fable
especially on the gilgamesh build which i think is what nyaanyaa was referencing
it wasnt "haha meme blade dash"
blade dash was actually useful
mossy zinc
Things like Blade Dash are super useful for handling DC2.
true fable
i guess i'm missing something
mossy zinc
The damage of Blade Dash is actually really good, too.
true fable
is that build not unique?
static plover
Actually, good question. What constitutes a unique build to you?
sly remnant
why was blade dash taken
and don't hindsight it
in the moment
when the boon was picked
why was blade dash picked
true fable
is this going to be another AP2 tangent
sly remnant
no
true fable
it's making the most of what you get
mossy zinc
I don't read minds.
sly remnant
yes exactly
the person said, "i'll find a way to make this work"
and props to them
thats a skill that hades should reward
true fable
ok now im really lost
static plover
Same
mossy zinc
Or they thought it's exactly what they needed. You're making assumptions, and I don't know where it's supposed to lead either tbh.
sly remnant
okay fine
lets assume its exactly what they wanted
how do you make that build go higher
in terms of heat
since that is the barometer of this channel
true fable
who cares if it's the barometer of this channel
doing things for clout is a one way trip to personal disappointment
mossy zinc
You git gudder, I guess.
sly remnant
its not for clout
how do you make blade dash gilgamesh push higher than 50 heat
sorry 51 heat
true fable
i dont know, what's your idea
static plover
I'd still like to know what constitutes a unique build to you Tyler
sly remnant
bingo
true fable
what point are you trying to make
sly remnant
the pact is specifically against you pushing heat with anything other than generic fit anywhere stuff
true fable
it's not "fit anywhere stuff" it's using the tools you have to solve a specific problem
sly remnant
blade dash is great value on its own
sly remnant
and terrible value to actually include at a cost to you
true fable
and have to approach each enemy uniquely
mossy zinc
First run is just RI4 ME with base sword.
true fable
unrelated but sure
mossy zinc
Or Deadly Reversal, alternatively.