o 😄
#h1-high-heat-strategies
ripe crane
true fable
yeah its confusing
ripe crane
Thanks for stopping by. I answered your question there.
ripe crane
I mean you can change your name whenever if you want
ripe crane
I just want everyone to know that literally all you need to beat high heats is extra dashes
true fable
i buy it
i tried going for rush delivery a couple times but it sucks not having >2 dashes
ripe crane
You know, I still don't feel good about that stupid codex thing. Ugh. That feels so bad cause the other run was faster and I know I said I don't care, but I do, and that feels bad and I just need to get over these stupid neuroses and enjoy this cool video game.
And also probably just needed to type that out to someone, or into the void, thanks for being here mainly-empty high heat chat.
true fable
yeah im sorry that uber sucks
but if theres one truism about this game its that whatever youve done once you can do again
ripe crane
Unless you get extremely lucky that one time >_>. HEH. Actually I love Hestia, but I think it's time to move onto fists.
edgy arrow
late to the party but 51 hestia wtf
that’s a tie with the highest eris run on leaderboard
consider me rapturously applauding
true fable
i just killed alecto as i died
tepid mural
👌
true fable
yeah it makes sense
tepid mural
If you die... you die
tepid mural
Well is an arrow
true fable
yep
ripe crane
Thanks, ohokwy 😄
ripe crane
What melee?
true fable
im using nem sword rn
static plover
Taking acorn into em3 helps a bunch
true fable
for the first part of the fight should i be trying to contest bull or mostly leave him alone and go after the chariot
ripe crane
hmmmm I haven't used it much. I would say don't attempt to hit with the special, dash through him when he's doing the triple jump at you attack pattern and get in a couple of backstabs during that process, and after he finishes it up.
north dove
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/599449585710006288/773016039109034024/unknown.png After hours of banging my head against a wall I finally got a 45 guan yu win
ripe crane
Daaaaang nice job
north dove
Yes I did record it
twilit orbit
did you RARE CROP
true fable
with ambiguity bonus too nice
north dove
no rare crop no
twilit orbit
huh
loud coral
Eurydice or just lucky with boon exchanges?
north dove
eurydice
after all that time trying to get that win I can say with certainty that guan yu is big doo doo
true fable
unless theres some not on the spreadsheet rn i think thats the aspect record
at least in 1.0
congrats
ripe crane
Retrash? More like... uh.... not trash...?
Wasn't your Lucifer run also record for that aspect? Definitely close if not
loud coral
Guan Yu got a massive damage buff I think, but the health reduction does still feel a bit harsh
north dove
Not sure about the lucifer one, didn't record that one anyways so it wouldn't count
daring hedge
woah congrats @ripe crane and @north dove on those aspect records!!
rocky lark
I feel like GY doesn't even work anymore with the new dash buffering
Is an attack based build viable now?
I didn't watch that Haelian vid yet
daring hedge
yeah, it's not really working quite as intended right now. GY's second combo hit comes after a dash-strike if you're just trying to dash-strike a second time, which isn't even analogous to how arthur works
rocky lark
Cause you can't do the special -> dash strike x2 anymore
Yeah it feels strange
With the 3rd hit coming out right after
Hope they look at it I guess
wraith imp
once again, i'm very confused about attack and dash-attack dynamic
on rama, i currently have demeter attack and artemis dash. when i use dash attack, my dash attack is white and is turning enemies cold.
so does both attack and dash attack go into dash attack?
honest kernel
Normally, yes
wraith imp
wtf
honest kernel
You can consider a dash-attack the same as an attack
But bonuses that apply to dash-attack only do so on that
wraith imp
word?
so doesn't that mean i should take athena dash?
wouldn't that give me deflect on dash attack?
ember bronze
Roughly, how do people play Zeus Shield?
honest kernel
You can take Athena dash, do a dash-attack, and still benefit from your attack's boon
wraith imp
@ember bronze
give me a sec, let me finish up this convo
honest kernel
Most dashes do something when you dash, that's about it
ember bronze
Yeah sorry, just dropping in between runs, heh
wraith imp
@honest kernel
if i did have athena, would my dash attacks deflect on rama dash attack?
honest kernel
Nope
Athena dash makes you reflect stuff WHILE dashing
It won't be on the attack itself, but on your character
little veldt
Artemis is the only dash boon that affects your dash attack
rocky lark
No your attack will always use your attack boon, even dash attacks
little veldt
All the others only affect your dash
rocky lark
Yup what storm said
honest kernel
^
wraith imp
i see, i see.
true fable
@ember bronze i know some people like athena special ME
since curse of agony at least gives you some amt of room clear ability
honest kernel
Artemis is an exception, and honestly a weird one, because chaos boons can also do the same thing
true fable
while your shield is out
ripe crane
Artemis' dash boon is the same effect as the+% dash strike damage from Chaos
true fable
but i dont know how it holds up at 40+ heat
wraith imp
@ember bronze
I use zeus shield in one of 3 ways:
- like a yo-yo with explosive shield
- make shield chase me (this is where hermes boons are super useful)
- charged shot to turn it into bow
rocky lark
Athena attack and doom special on zeus shield was my first ME build
honest kernel
As far as Zeus shield goes, Merciful End can work OK
It's just a bit slow to get because relying on the special alone to get the procs is a bit wonky compared to say doing it with the fists or sword
rocky lark
Lightning on special might be faster overall
honest kernel
And you need either athena attack or special with the new reqs to get the duo
true fable
@rocky lark satanisachillguy was labbing both on stream yesterday and said it seemed better to have curse of agony for general rooms but ares special is probably better for bosses
rocky lark
Since it gets online quicker
honest kernel
Nothing stopping ya to get dash at some point, but it's still slower
Zeus on special for the Zeus aspect (lol) works fine too
true fable
doesnt it still have the internal CD if you run zeus special
little veldt
Zeus shield with Zeus special should work, right? Wiki says shield hits every 0.3s, and special's CD is around 0.2s
true fable
ah ok
little veldt
zzz slow typing
wraith imp
wait...
if i take artemis attack on rama which has crit chance...does that mean that dash attack can now crit too?
rocky lark
Yeah that makes sense Bright
true fable
yes
true fable
your dash attack should have whatever properties your regular attack has
wraith imp
sgg - y'all are terrible at explaining that
wraith imp
it took 50 runs to finally figure that out?
no wonder i couldn't get dash attack to crit in some runs
i was like...wtf is going on?
wraith imp
yeah
rocky lark
I thought you meant we're terrible at explaining
ripe crane
Notice that Artemis' dash boon says dash strike, not dash attack
Your dash strike is your regular attack performed during/immediately after dashing
true fable
it also increases your dash upper i think on fists
at least thats what someone who plays this game more than i do said
tardy path
Notice how it also says, increase dash strike dmg and doesn't mention crit chance anywhere
wraith imp
@drowsy berry (using u as a vector for SGG)
I love you man but you all failed at explaining attack vs. dash-attack vs. strike.
T-E-R-R-I-B-A-D.
/i'm about to get skewered
lol
drowsy berry
I don't have the context for this discussion and am not sure how to reply this message.
rocky lark
I mean you can pretty easily test it though
ember bronze
I think this feedback can be given constructively
rocky lark
And visually see how they interact
ember bronze
(I also don't think we should tag devs unless we're doing so)
ember bronze
I think it would be ideal if there was still an open feedback channel
wraith imp
There was
rocky lark
All the other dash boons just specify dash so there's nothing indicating they'd alter the properties of your actual dash attack like artemis does
wraith imp
It was closed after 1.0 release.
honest kernel
They nuked the channel after release yeah
sly remnant
they've been working on the game for over 3 years
rocky lark
But yeah the dash strike interaction is complicated af tbh
true fable
amir does not need to reply to that message lol
tardy path
Oh hi there Amir
rocky lark
With hammers and dash specials
sly remnant
i think they've made it clear they want to move on
true fable
leave the man alone for a minute they just put out a patch LMAO
sly remnant
i'm sure there will be balance patches and stuff but i wouldn't bet on anything major changing
rocky lark
Yeah don't flame a random dev for this haha
sly remnant
the community is small enough that we will just swap this tribal knowledge back and forth
wraith imp
The bigger thing is - as Amir said - he's definitely missing the context for the attack/dash-attack/strike discussion.
For instance, hammer upgrades on rail get goofy on attack/dash-attack
tardy path
Amir sorry for bothering you on this wonderful day >.<
true fable
hammer upgrades on sword definitely miss that distinction a bit
its in there
just a lot of widespread misconceptions about what they do
honest kernel
@ripe crane If you don't mind me asking : I saw your 51 heat win screenshot, and I see that there are VERY few boons, even with Underworld Customs. Was it just the run being unkind with boons, or was that a deliberate choice ? 👀
true fable
doesnt seem to be a problem for people whove played the game a lot though
hollow lynx
hey, let’s not drag devs into random things, at least not without a more informative reason
true fable
probably dark foresight mugging things up tooo
since you have to take RI1 or 2
wait jk
just saw the screenshot
how tf did you get to 51 without taking RI or DC
time to take notes
rocky lark
What issue is there on rail with dash striking and hammer upgrades?
drowsy berry
I looked back up, and it looks like there are several overlapping conversations here.
To clarify, the best thing you can do if you think something needs to get in front of us, is still to F10 the issue. It gives us the log, screenshot, and save file to check out the context.
true fable
thanks amir
twilit orbit
I'm not sure if the convo moved past this point already, but as I player who picked up the game after the 1.0 release, I have to say that not knowing whether something only works on attack or whether it works on dash attack was really annoying
sly remnant
oh its super annoying
twilit orbit
I mostly know now from experience, and from listening to people say "oh this doesnt work on dash attack so its bad"
true fable
same i found out from someone in this channel too i think
twilit orbit
but back when I was starting it was really confusing
rocky lark
I think the main culprit would be sword hammers
ember bronze
It is a good point of feedback
sly remnant
idk the bow attack and dash attack having different power shot timings
rocky lark
But yeah there's not much way to know that, I sure didn't when I started playing
sly remnant
is my personal pet peeve
ember bronze
But just making sure we are very good about respecting devs (saying this is as someone who works in games and is usually on the other side of this interaction)
sly remnant
like its not clear that in the first pplace different aspects have different power shot timings
AND ON TOP OF THAT
each aspect has different timings on the attack and dash attack
wraith imp
Yeah, in retrospect...I shouldn't have tagged Amir. I took the AMMMIIIIRRRRRR running joke a bit too far by tagging him there.
twilit orbit
maybe it would be good if the text treated attack and dash attack as completely distinct things
and wrote out "your attack and dash attack deal more damage" on basic attack boons
hollow lynx
but yeah, i have plenty of misgivings about hammer terminology related to dash strike and attack, which i’ve already gotten into multiple times
true fable
well its a bit weird innit
sly remnant
tbf the number of people this matters to is miniscule
true fable
like your dash attack just deals less damage (sometimes) or more damage (sometimes)
and its weapon/aspect dependent
sly remnant
most people derp their way through 20 or so victories and never play the game again
rocky lark
Tyler dash attack does have different properties to normal attack though
true fable
like zag aspect sword dash attack does more damage than base, but then bow dash attack does less
rocky lark
For all the aspects
hollow lynx
eh, i’ve seen many many times people ask if dash attacks benefit from attack bonuses
sly remnant
@rocky lark i completely understand that. i'm saying its not at all clear to a new player
rocky lark
Right I see
ripe crane
@honest kernel I got very lucky with core boons considering I was running AP2. Epic Artemis attack, divine dash, and heroic extra dashes made the run, as well as an extra DD and Pierce shot. I avoided any non-artemis/Athena boons when possible because AP2 could've forced me to take junk, or could've given me, say, an attack boon before I got Artemis, which would've made hers hard to get. It was safer to just avoid boons when there was an alternative. AP2 is really the main consideration there
rocky lark
For me when I first unlocked the bow I tried out the moves in the top left in the courtyard
hollow lynx
really i think this could be all fixed with a new term: “Your Attack (but not your Dash-Strike)...”
rocky lark
And I think I noticed there that dash strike charges faster
sly remnant
but again we are nitpicking things that 99% of players will never need to care about to play the game at the level that needs to care about to play it at
hollow lynx
i disagree tyler
true fable
the way you play around AP2 is very eye opening
hollow lynx
clarity of terminology is very, very important to new players, moreso than to experienced ones
ripe crane
Honestly the later mirror upgrades are so powerful that I didn't want to turn on RI at all, so went AP instead. Hestia doesn't need a lot to be great; AP2 will definitely not work on all aspects
rocky lark
I think for hammers it matters a lot
true fable
the question that actually needs to be answered is how they made AP so good at sensing what boon you want to crush your soul completely
honest kernel
^^^^^^
sly remnant
joe blow on 1 heat with hera bow artemis cast does not need to understand the differences between attack and dash attack
honest kernel
Hestia doesn't need many hammers
hollow lynx
doesn’t change the fact that people come in here all the time asking the difference between dash strike, attack, whether attack boons affect dash strike, whether attack hammers affect dash strikes
sly remnant
absolutely
for people looking to do more than just get to credits or epilogue they'll need to start understanding more and thats where the game fails them
hollow lynx
why doesn’t joe blow need to understand?
why is it bad that things get more clear lol
honest kernel
Honestly I might play around a bit with that on Zeus shield
honest kernel
Since hammers are honestly whatever for it
sly remnant
is it REALLY dev time you want to spend
rocky lark
But even super early game it would suck that this person takes cursed slash on sword they don't get healed by dash striking
honest kernel
^
twilit orbit
I take AP2 way more than I probably should
sly remnant
especially when theres no guarantee your new descriptions will be any better
rocky lark
And then they take piercing wave which now does work???
twilit orbit
sometimes it feels really bad but sometimes you just RNG your way into the right boons and its like you just got free heat
rocky lark
So next run they take the backstab one and now that doesn't do anything on dash attacks again
Even though they all just say attack
sly remnant
i'd love better descriptions. the game would be better for it. I have zero idea if its the right use of dev resources
rocky lark
Exactly haha it's the literal first weapon
true fable
yeah ultimately its their call if they want to fix it but
seems like a good fix to make
rocky lark
And hammers will be there from the start of the game
hollow lynx
bringing up issues in a game isn’t the same thing as forcing the game devs to fix it lol
sly remnant
sure i get that
twilit orbit
like look at this dumb run with AP2 on
https://i.imgur.com/ns2VdGX.jpeg
sly remnant
i'm just pointing out reasons why it maybe hasn't been fixed satisfactorily yet
twilit orbit
sometimes you just get the right boons and AP2 is fine :^)
hollow lynx
i wasn’t the guy that pinged the dev, it was just a topic that was brought up and i wanted to input on
sly remnant
no i feel you
true fable
thunder flourish on arthur
ripe crane
No fair, Arthur could run AP3 and be good
hollow lynx
if i wanted to i’d hit f10 rn and write my essay about hammer terminology and send it on over
twilit orbit
i mean i barely ever hit with special anyways
twilit orbit
just spent the whole run trying to get backstab crits
true fable
maybe i just stick with nem
sly remnant
yea i think the boon on excal special iss the most useless boon ever except for opening up duo options
true fable
reminder to abuse exposed status for ez 32 heat clears before it gets fixed smile
rocky lark
I almost tried an AP2 Hestia run but gave up after 3 tries of not getting an attack boon start
honest kernel
Oh yeah right, that bug
sly remnant
implying 32 heat is difficult
ripe crane
New
twilit orbit
so it probably doesnt exist for me?
true fable
crepes it didnt show up on any of the pre-1.0 runs you watched?
rocky lark
What's the bug?
ripe crane
I checked my Hestia 47 run from the day before we found it and it wasn't there
twilit orbit
blinding flash's scaling with poms is broken
true fable
its adding an extra +100% on top of what the tooltip says for each pom level
twilit orbit
it makes backstabs do way more damage than they should
true fable
so instead of 70% for a level 2 blinding flash
it's 170%
and then for level 3
instead of 84
ripe crane
So it was literally added in a micro patch after the 27th
true fable
it's 284%
rocky lark
Also @hollow lynx you're pretty knowledgeable and Amir said that's the way to do it
Probably worth a shot
true fable
id feel dirty for abusing it but im not submitting any runs anytime soon so 🤷♂️
hollow lynx
brb doing my divine flourish lucy run on 55 heat
with my new best friend, blinding flash
sly remnant
i'm gonna do a meme run with it but not a legit run
true fable
what if all my runs are meme runs
honest kernel
^
twilit orbit
what if somebody did a 58 heat run where they turned on every option besides tight deadline? 
you'd be hella weak but you could take as much time as you needed
honest kernel
...
ripe crane
Seems painful
true fable
thatd be like doing a fresh file run
with every pact
except td
probably feel like crap
honest kernel
You still get to use keepsakes
twilit orbit
well, you have a maxed out weapon aspect too
honest kernel
But yeah
twilit orbit
plus keepsake and companion
true fable
yeah im gonna go out on a limb and say that doesnt balance out having 0 DDs/SDs
twilit orbit
nah you would probably need a ranged weapon
true fable
seems rough
honest kernel
Or shield
rocky lark
MonkaS
twilit orbit
just RNG into vengeful mood
hollow lynx
tailesque with rama could probably do it
rocky lark
But then how do you even kill em4 dad
twilit orbit
and hide in a corner slowly killing hades
But then how do you even kill em4 dad
@rocky lark very slowly
rocky lark
Can he keep healing?
honest kernel
You can destroy the pot that has the green ray thing to interrupt the heal, I think
ripe crane
Yes you can
true fable
good to know
honest kernel
But even then, Rama damage is fantastic with maxed aspect as is
rocky lark
You know speaking of, does anyone ever do that haha
true fable
i havent run EM4 since like 16 heat
twilit orbit
i never knew that
true fable
the green ray thing
rocky lark
Once I tried and it just moves to a different pot
twilit orbit
ive just been blasting hades with damage
true fable
like shooting into the sky?
honest kernel
@rocky lark Hades heals multiple times
rocky lark
So do you need to destroy all urns?
honest kernel
Gotta do it once for each time
ripe crane
I do it whenever I can't out DPS his heal
rocky lark
Ah
honest kernel
Only the ones highlighted, it's like 3 times IIRC
rocky lark
Good to know thanks
true fable
to go back to the earlier convo im p sure vengeful mood only procs in a radius too
rocky lark
I've not done much em4 tbh
honest kernel
Altho destroying pots with Heightened Security wouldn't be a bad idea, TBH
true fable
so you'd still be in bonking distance of dad
honest kernel
Especially phase 3
rocky lark
Usually just dps through the heal
honest kernel
Bullrush away if he sneaks in or a skull's about to explode
Or adds are being annoying
true fable
he lunged past my shield a few times when i was doing early clears so im wary of that start
like when he does the lean before the spin
you can still block it with a 180 but its sometimes ambiguous what side he will hit on
twilit orbit
the only problem is getting vengeful mood with AP2
honest kernel
^
true fable
yeah the only problem
twilit orbit
since its already not super common without AP
true fable
only problem i see with that high heat strat
twilit orbit
yep, once you get past the vengeful mood hurdle the game is easy!!!
rocky lark
Hahaha
honest kernel
... Oh yeah, the worst part : Lasting Consequences 4 with no death defiance
Good frickin' luck
twilit orbit
just dont get hit
honest kernel
Granted you could knock it down to 52 I think ? And get the death defiance
Which is still a pretty decent heat level
twilit orbit
i wonder if 64 heat would be possible with a TAS
rocky lark
What if you just get stubborn roots though
honest kernel
Does Stubborn Roots work with Lasting Consequences 4
honest kernel
Same deal as lifesteal on Guan-Yu, hmm
twilit orbit
I guess if you had a perfect rng run with a tasbot you probably would be able to do 64 heat
but its likely impossible for humans
honest kernel
With a TAS and something like Rama or Eris for stupid damage it could work
But yeah, no bueno for humans
twilit orbit
you mostly just need to make sure you rng the right boons to make TD
and then just use tas magic to never take damage
rocky lark
With a fully routed run
twilit orbit
just to prove its theoretically possible
and to unlock they mythical fourth skelly statue
sly remnant
i mean of course its theoretically possible
i don't know if there is any point in proving that
i mean lets be honest. getting up to 50+ already massively limits the available strategies to an amount that removes a lot of the fun of the game.
i like playing on 40+ (i'm not good enough for 50) but its not what made me fall in love with the game
if i'm being honest i'd be happy streaking at 32 with the "difficult" modifiers
but thats not what this community cares about
rocky lark
Hey I think that's pretty impressive
honest kernel
In all honesty, I'm surprised there wasn't someone that tried to push some sort of streak with a given heat level
Or at 'least, one that's popular
When it comes to streams, it's either high heat (40+), speedruns, casual runs/people learning the game, or meme stuff
sly remnant
i mean to be a legitimate 32 streaker you'd have to play with FO2 all the time
because 32 without FO2 is a joke
like FO2 EM4 HL5 LC4 would probably be the "streak" setup that would draw attention
you could maybe even drop off the LC4
honest kernel
But assuming there was another setup that was, say, more consistent and didn't involve FO2, that could draw it's own attention as well, especially if you can keep the streak high
sly remnant
yea but anything without FO2 just isn't challenging
honest kernel
And by that logic, why stop at 32 heat ?
sly remnant
which is how we've gotten to this point
honest kernel
If anything, heat levels are arbritrary
rocky lark
Yeah if you're already running EM4 FO2 HL5 super dad
Can probably up it from 32 without much trouble
honest kernel
And it's moreso on the conditions themselves
sly remnant
except the problem is that as normal rooms get tougher and tougher
your options of viable builds gets narrower and narrower
if i get out of tartarus at 40+ i'm probably going to hades
but getting out of normal rooms is TOOOOUUUUGGHHHH
sly remnant
you could tone it down with TD2 i think
honest kernel
Soo, I played a lot on 32 heat before I started practising solely for 40+, and it's honestly not that limiting, especially if you go TD2
sly remnant
yea it would have to be TD2 i think to be an enjoyable experience
honest kernel
TD3 is just asking for bad damage builds to get screwed by sack rng
With TD2 you can get away with it
sly remnant
i don't mind the hp
its the freakin stealth rng that pisses me off
honestly i wonder if the perfect form of this is a mode that removes control of the Pact from the player and randomizes it up to 32 every time
and player has to adjust aspect and build to fit whatever pact the game gave you
honest kernel
Now THAT would be interesting for streaks
sly remnant
(AP2 being banned of course)
sly remnant
lmfao
honest kernel
I think Haelian did a few randomized runs here and there. Don't recall if he said anything about liking the experience or no
honest kernel
Like, with external tools ofc
sly remnant
yea
there would have to be things in place
i think AP and RI probably just get removed
rocky lark
Yeah I think RI3 and RI4 would have to be banned too
sly remnant
eh you could probably leave in RI1 and RI2
rocky lark
RI1 and RI2 could be fine
twilit orbit
yeah RI1 and RI2 are completely fine
people dont like them but they arent really run killers
sly remnant
but it runs into the same problem
where runs without FO2 are SIGNIFICANTLY easier
like have you ever gone to FO0 from FO2
you feel like you are cheating
rocky lark
Yeah FO2 is hard
sly remnant
i question if zag is actually dating a grandma in the meg fight
wraith imp
i'll tell you what...twin shot + explosive shot is pretty FIRE on rama. too bad i didn't get a hermes attack speed boon.
twilit orbit
i think tailesque tested in and determined that hermes attack speed is a trap on rama
iirc he said that it affects the charge rate on your regular attack but not your dash attack
honest kernel
oh
twilit orbit
so in practice it doesnt do anything because all your attacks are dash attacks
wraith imp
@twilit orbit
Thanks. Did not know that.
twilit orbit
no idea
edgy arrow
so does that mean there’s a weird niche strategy where if you get heroic swift strike you should switch to only regular attacking, and never dash attacking?
because that’d be crazy
i can’t even imagine not dash attacking on a bow at this point lol
honest kernel
Dashing around to get into range to actually shoot stuff could be difficult, as well as just evading attacks and retaliating
edgy arrow
true
twilit orbit
yeah dashing is just way too important
twilit orbit
you naturally end up doing dash attacks a lot of the time because you're just dashing a lot anyways
edgy arrow
i’d test it for the lulz but lucking into high rarity hermes boons is a bit of a crap shoot
honest kernel
And basically playing the lottery if Routine Inspection is involved lol
twilit orbit
for reference I looked back and the hermes attack speed testing was here:
https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/725021448426749993/767990543186657281
edgy arrow
the lottery on top of the lottery at that point yeah
true fable
standing attack just simply does not happen often for me
always need to dodge something
wraith imp
i have a question about twin shot and artemis crit on rama.
artemis crit happens 15% of the time. so somewhere between 1/6 and 1/7 attacks.
does twin shot count as double?
in other words, is a crit happening around 1/3 rama attacks?
true fable
twin shot counts as 2 attacks
you can tell because a twin shot will strip armor and health if its beefy enough
wraith imp
right, that's what i thought.
true fable
i dont know if both can crit independently though if thats what youre asking
wraith imp
in other words, a crit is basically happening 1/3 uses of twin shot
true fable
some high heat vet probably knows
wraith imp
tail can probably best answer this.
true fable
probably
dont ping him though mans has had a jam packed day
had to coach haelian through 50 heat LMAO
wraith imp
yeah, i'll ask when i see him around here again.
true fable
sorry to be returning the chat to this conversation again but does the cyclops jerky + cyclops jerky select affect dash strikes too?
because if not im definitely taking it less
mossy zinc
They can crit independently, yes.
sorry to be returning the chat to this conversation again but does the cyclops jerky + cyclops jerky select affect dash strikes too?
Dash-Attacks, yes. Dash-Specials, no.
true fable
ok good to know
i was using nemesis and didnt notice a huge difference but thats because all my cyclops jerky got wasted on rooms with the little rats
ember bronze
Got 3 new 32 aspects today
Zeus, Talos, and Zag Spear
8 to go if I want to include the Zag's
ember bronze
No idea, haha, I don't what's good with any of the Zag aspects. Still not totally sure I feel like playing them 😛
For Spear I got an okay Explosive throw setup, but mostly just murdered everything with Hunting Blades
I could probably do that on every Zag weapon...
true fable
my favorite thing is when you have a build in mind and the game just really wants you to have
hunting blades
cerulean frigate
it's just got a very narrow build space
one of the least flexible weapons in that regard
foggy ruin
i just slap on aphro attack on zag bow and go to town. that's what i like about it
foggy ruin
I actually prefer power shots for the chunky damage, but flurry shot works. You could slap on hunter's dash for damage or athena for defense.
mossy zinc
Casual 40. Chiron is so chill. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/773096145949687849/Hades_1132.png?width=815&height=458
mossy zinc
Yes.
I streamed it if you want to see. There was nothing particularly special about it, though.
true fable
im down
cerulean frigate
How come you run FF on chiron when the goal is drunken flourish like you've said?
just in case you don't see aphro in tartarus would be my guess
honest kernel
Probably didn't bother changing up the mirror setup
As Nya said, it was a "casual 40 heat" run
true fable
whats ur stream
honest kernel
^
I legit want to push myself to get better at this game
Already watch a couple of streams of high level stuff, but I want more
mossy zinc
/nyaanyaa_mewmew
honest kernel
And followed
honest kernel
Let's see if my sleep schedule doesn't get in my way
mossy zinc
I don't have any kind of stream schedule. You'll be disappointed. I only stream for one person lol.
honest kernel
It's all cool
cerulean frigate
it;s so weird to me that curse of vengeance is a valid prerequisite to curse of nausea
even vengeful mood requires a core boon from both gods
foggy ruin
How do people submit runs for the spreadsheet? I found someone who cleared Gilgamesh at 40 heat and I haven't seen any Gilg clears there yet
*Rush Kick Gilgamesh lmao
true fable
vengeful mood can also be obtained with curse of vengeance iirc
unless they changed it recently
i think you just DM wriste or krashercorr on discord
info is pinned in channel though
foggy ruin
Cool cool ty
cerulean frigate
@true fable you need any revenge boon and a core boon from both ares and zues for vengeful mood.
cerulean frigate
I like how Hades says the heart seeking bow is for cowards but meanwhile Tailesque did rama at 55 heat
ripe crane
that coward
edgy arrow
i'm too much of a coward to use spears personally, so idk what that says about Hades
gaunt fiber
I'm too much of a masochist no to use spears
edgy arrow
all i'm saying is, i tried to use GY for like 2 runs then immediately afterwards cracked 40 with beowulf
trying to play with that weapon is better than cardio
edgy arrow
yeah it makes you actually dodge lol
good practice, i just can't dodge consistently enough ig
gaunt fiber
that sweet lernie head slam hitting your for 36
which is basically your entire life bar
edgy arrow
oof yeah
edgy arrow
good times lol
mossy zinc
Actually, 40 is not hell indeed unless it's hell mode.
cinder cave
how much harder is hell mode?
gaunt fiber
at least 12
cerulean frigate
you get 1 unique pact of punishment worth 1 heat you can't turn off and can't change 4 of them: hard labor 1, lasting consequences 1, jury summons 1 and Calisthenics Program 1
in short, more annoying to start a save on, with no real benefit worth speaking of
mossy zinc
No one's bothering with because hardly anyone bothers starting a new hell mode save and maxing it.
The difference is certainly quite impactful, though. People are really downplaying especially JS1 CP1 and PL. Quite a few 40+ runs had no points in JS or CP or would have failed with PL.
cinder cave
yah LC1 and HL1 seem like nothing but I imagine JS1 CP1 affect clearspeed a lot, making TD harder to achieve?
PL means you're likely to tank just a boatload of unnecessary damage?
mossy zinc
Yeah, also just situations like getting caught off guard by Hades's beams.
With PL, that will just end you.
north dove
I almost always run spearpoint instead of acorn because of that
sly remnant
i have a decent feeling that high-heat will end up having to grind out hell mode runs but no one wants to do that and we aren't at the point yet where that one heat changes things drastically
but eventually we will have to grind it out but god i don't want to
waxen relic
could probably just import a savefile then
ripe crane
I think they are times that PL would be used. I had to turn on AP2 yesterday to get one more point 😬. Would have liked to not do that
But then again I've never used PL, I could definitely be underestimating how bad it is
twilit orbit
i havent played with PL but I find that most of the time the shield that you get doesn't actually do very much
but there are times where you're literally getting hit with everything and if the shield didnt exist you would just instantly die
those times feel rare to me though
mossy zinc
I think practically every 50+ clear before 1.0 had at least one moment like that lol.
true fable
What does PL do? I'm not a hell mode person
ah i looked it up
that seems tough but manageable?
twilit orbit
its takes away the shield you get after taking a ton of damage
you might occasionally notice, if you take too much of your hp bar in damage in a short window you get the same shield that bosses do when their next phase triggers
true fable
just seems like thered be some very unfortunate moments every now and then
twilit orbit
its really only matters when you take an absurd amount of damage and then get hit a second time shortly after
though on HL5 its much more likely to trigger
honest kernel
So PL is like HS
1 heat, basically doesn't matter, except when it does and you are immediately deleted
The different save file is definitely the major stopping point though I agree
tidal flame
I am now convinced PI is not only a free heat, it can be actively annoying with the shield.
It never triggers when it needs to save you. But when you want to suicide for SD, oh it's gonna be there to consume your TD time.
Piece of crap 😤
mossy zinc
@edgy arrow congratulations on 40 with Beowulf!
I see my "just put Lady Aphrodite boons on everything except for Divine Dash" build for Beowulf still works. 
sly remnant
passion flare beo 
drowsy berry
Just dropping in to note we should have fixed the issues cited with not being able to Dash-Strike with Aspect of Guan Yu.
ripe crane
What Aspect?
mossy zinc
Thanks, Amir! 💗
tidal flame
heroic lightning strike + heartbreak flourish
jolted and cold fusion
i actaully can't get past phase 1
butterfly is silly
ripe crane
You have mistral dash to throw off your timing on everything :p
twilit orbit
is cold fusion even good
tidal flame
it's ok
formal gust
Just dropping in to note we should have fixed the issues cited with not being able to Dash-Strike with Aspect of Guan Yu.
YAY
twilit orbit
you attack so fast that once jolted expires you can just reapply it instantly
formal gust
they fixed it
twilit orbit
like I think it could be a really good boon if your lightning damage is something harder to apply
but something like fists or rail with zeus attack you're just going to immediately put jolted back on them once they consume the debuff
ripe crane
You are not punching him during his attack sequences or while he's chucking out 3 skulls in a row.
twilit orbit
thats fair
ripe crane
I'm kind of curious how bad I am without Athena dash. Do we have patty blessing or anything else good?
ripe crane
I think I would've died on purpose before getting to dad lol
I will give it an attempt tho if you want to send it
I need practice anyway
mossy zinc
Yeah, just checked. Guan Yu Dash-Strike > Dash-Strike works just fine now.
true fable
i saw that dash strike thing and knew cin would be happy
what was the setup for beo 40
im dying to know
also has anyone done rail on a heat higher than 51
mossy zinc
That was the 40 Heat run: #h1-victory-boasting message
mossy zinc
@formal gust stupid 5-sack. 
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/773307200231309322/Hades_1133.png?width=815&height=458
mossy zinc
I feel like Serrated Point made things slower, I dunno lol.
trim sigil
depends on whether deflecting the doom 3 times with 1 dash works
true fable
i never thought about that
if it doesnt its still kinda nuts i guess
just not as nuts as i thought
viscid imp
damn ur insane
formal gust
ok nvm
tidal flame
someone should explain to him how columns work.
honest kernel
... Eh, he doesn't need it. He's fine like that tbh
mossy zinc
Nice! Congratulations!
daring hedge
thank you!
mossy zinc
Because you forgot that.
I'm taking notes. Gonna try that from now on.
New tech every time.
daring hedge
the true high heat strats
not taking the extra SD makes you play better, 100% confirmed
tidal flame
jesus christ
hollow lynx
oh we going higher? 👀
thorn cape
what's sd??
daring hedge
stubborn defiance
tidal flame
short for ptsd
thorn cape
lol
tidal flame
the feeling you have doing 50+ heat
thorn cape
you mean use death defiance instead right?
tidal flame
I think he meant he forgot to SD heal "abuse"
daring hedge
i tried 57 for a while with RI3 but relying a lot on getting an extra hermes dash with AP1 was 
edgy arrow
wait did you take 2 actually good hammers
tidal flame
I spent the afternoon doing EM4 with Demeter
edgy arrow
not very on brand
tidal flame
it's pain
north dove
is 56 the WR?
daring hedge
extremely unforgiving, especially for melee
mossy zinc
@daring hedge you should do RI3 AP2. That will help. Worked for me at 52.
hollow lynx
just use ap2 instead
mossy zinc
56 is the WR, yes.
tidal flame
yes, this is the new WR
north dove
Oh awesome
mossy zinc
Or it will be when the run is verified.
mossy zinc
Right now we can't tell if he used cheats or something. It's impossible to say.
foggy ruin
Do we have a spreadsheet for the scaling of boons?
mossy zinc
Maybe he did the Konami code.
hollow lynx
also >triple point-blank
hollow lynx
how many melee shots did you go for
daring hedge
many
hollow lynx
glad to hear it
tidal flame
Tail cheated because he used the exact sequence of dodge and attack needed to beat the game on 56 heat.
daring hedge
pretty much all i did during the EM4 fight lol
tidal flame
We can't tell if he didn't because he didn't have gamepadviewer on
Also, EM4 on non-Rama aspects when?
Seems like such a hard wall for me.
tidal flame
he just won't die T.T
tidal flame
hey i'm getting close 
edgy arrow
it's why i don't do EM4 for my 50s with the melee aspects lol
so instead you did point blank triple rama, a combination known for its vast range
mossy zinc
Close is still a miss.
twilit orbit
56 heat is insane
the only things missing from full heat are AP2, RI3/4, and PL1 right?
tidal flame
yeah
twilit orbit
I could potentially see AP2 + getting lucky and PL1 being turned on (though that obviously requires you to get a completely new save file)
daring hedge
so instead you did point blank triple rama, a combination known for its vast range
@edgy arrow lol fair point
twilit orbit
but either way improving on 56 heat sounds really, really hard
daring hedge
it's just that it does such incredible damage with good timing even compared to actual melee aspects, on average
hollow lynx
but what melee weapon has the absolute demolishing potential even close to triple point-blank rama
tidal flame
maybe demeter with deadly flourish?
edgy arrow
true
hollow lynx
does demeter have a 1.6x modifier 
mossy zinc
I'm a bit jealous you still have the time to grind 50+. I'm happy though 40 is still kinda casual for me with a lot of aspects lol. Way out of practice for 50+, though.
twilit orbit
bugged blinding flash has the demolishing potential of point blank rama!
tidal flame
i mean hard to beat that, but demeter deadly flourish can do some nutty stuff with bosses
hollow lynx
but consider: blinding flash triple point-blank rama
tidal flame
especially an epic one
daring hedge
I'm a bit jealous you still have the time to grind 50+. I'm happy though 40 is still kinda casual for me with a lot of aspects lol. Way out of practice for 50+, though.
@mossy zinc i don't really have a ton of time since i am in the middle of a semester right now, i've just been doing some attempts on and off during some spare time on my free days
mossy zinc
What are free days?
daring hedge
but if you're out of practice for 50+, i'm out of practice for like... a ton of aspects lol
i need to branch back out of rama and hades aspects
tidal flame
Hades, Rama, Demeter
mossy zinc
I think I've improved a lot at playing all kinds of aspects, but I seriously lack practice in boss fights.
My Hades fights have become really sloppy because I could get away with too much playing at low heats to finish my bounties.
sly remnant
I mean i think realistically we can add.....PL? maaaybe RI3, but after that I think it becomes way too much of an RNG fest
not me of course
someone better than me
thorn cape
How do you guys dodge the hades spin attack, I can deal with most everything else in the game but that one attack breaks most of my runs
tidal flame
This is extremely 4head, but learn the timing of the "pre-swipe"
It also matters which EM level you are on
mossy zinc
We did RI3 AP2 at 50+ before 1.0—but with seeds.
ripe crane
Love being an old man with no responsibilities after work. Hades all night 😎
sly remnant
realistically we are probably reaching the limits of what we can do unseeded
tidal flame
Hades all night.
US Election tonight
sly remnant
well tailesque is
tidal flame
there is no limit for unseeded
sly remnant
i'm still working on my 46 lucy clear
mossy zinc
But there are plenty of reasonable starting boons or hammers for Rama at least.
tidal flame
because you can always try again and again to have a start similar to seeded runs
daring hedge
yeah, unseeded is honestly pretty simple with rama
tidal flame
just a matter of grind, if we want to be super technical
daring hedge
you're likely to either get deadly strike with arrowhead or a good hammer
ripe crane
Yoooo is that a FIFTY SIX heat? Grats to Tail for that
daring hedge
thank you!
sly remnant
oh yea congrats
honest kernel
Fantastic stuff
twilit orbit
is the next step in heat to turn on PL? seems like the easiest way to get another heat in
daring hedge
yeah, i've been considering starting hell mode soon
could just be a focused file where i spend my titan blood very selectively
twilit orbit
are you just going to copy a save or do you need to personally grind up a file?
daring hedge
i prefer having it mine, personally
tidal flame
PL is nice to have, at least for me.
Literally only save me if I get caught in Asterius spin
twilit orbit
well one downside is that you'll need to do a lot of runs before your companion of choice unlocks
tidal flame
otherwise it's useless or annoying since it stops SD suicide
daring hedge
i went back to battie at least lol
sly remnant
antos PepeHands
daring hedge
then forgot to use it on hades even though i could have
mossy zinc
I'll likely focus more on my hell mode save once I've got my last couple bounties with Aegis.
tidal flame
Antos because I can't do Phase 4 Tisiphone gang
twilit orbit
oh yeah, you also need max relationship with hades on your hell mode file
daring hedge
right
honest kernel
... That could take a while LOL
mossy zinc
then forgot to use it on hades even though i could hav
I do that, too.
twilit orbit
i dont know why but gifting hades is really hard
daring hedge
i'll probably grind a hell mode file this winter break if i have time lmao
mossy zinc
Confirmed high heat strategy.
twilit orbit
most of the time the option just isnt there
true fable
tailesque looks like all you have to do is coach haelian and you go up a heat
sly remnant
LMFAO
true fable
you'll hit max heat in no time
tidal flame
RI4 LC4 is pain, not that I doubt Tail's ability, but human ability in general.
mossy zinc
Good thing he's a fox.
honest kernel
Got that frame 1 i-frame on his shine, he's fine
honest kernel
For real tho, i'd be impressed if that kind of run could happen
honest kernel
In the meantime I'm climbing the heat levels bit by bit. 45 heat is my next step, with Zeus aspect on shield. Will also look to record it when I'm done with the practise runs
edgy arrow
the pinned one ofc
honest kernel
Figures
edgy arrow
chaos is not a good speedrunning aspect lol
honest kernel
Not after the nerfs lol
edgy arrow
indeed
honest kernel
Altho I wonder how hard you could push it with TD2
Zeus aspect on shield and perhaps Achilles aspect on spear are the aspects I want to push right now
daring hedge
i'd love to see more high heat zeus aspect especially, it's got such an interesting high skill ceiling playstyle
honest kernel
Especially against Hades
The fact that you can throw the special, and block while dealing damage is legitimately insane
honest kernel
I personnaly play it like the current Chaos aspect of shield lmao
Bull rush in, throw the special
Except I can also dance around foes to get the special rolling
daring hedge
i try to be a puppeteer and recall-guide it around enemy waves lol
honest kernel
Or throw it out in advance to nab free damage while bosses are impervious or regular foes are spawning
saaaaaame
daring hedge
or just constant throw and recall for single targets sometimes
true fable
explosive return energy right there
honest kernel
^ legit
edgy arrow
hitting enemies in the back with a surprise shield recall is so satisfying
honest kernel
Honestly, most if not all the hammers play well with zeus aspect
edgy arrow
they never see it coming
honest kernel
Because the special is worth using alongside the attack
honest kernel
It would be insane lmao
edgy arrow
lol
true fable
that was gonna be my next question
it almost feels like a hammer designed with zeus in mind
honest kernel
The one that gets you bonus attack when the special hits is a close second tho
Especially if you mess around with Athena attack for merciful end stuff
Bull Rush is still just fantastic, and moreso on Zeus aspect, because the special is slow as balls
And any mobility helps
edgy arrow
okay, question for actually good shield players: thoughts on charged shot?
honest kernel
It's good
edgy arrow
i kinda hate it, and idk if that’s a controversial opinion
honest kernel
Basically non-rama bow 2.0
Don't need to go into corners for rooms
And the damage is nice for it's range
Oh, and it's like ridiculous on Beowolf lmao
Range's huge with a cast load
true fable
it's grown on me
edgy arrow
the loss of safe manoeuvrability hurts so much tho
honest kernel
It's the tradeoff yeah
true fable
also as a M&K player it's one of the few ways to move omnidirectionally
honest kernel
But being ranged in exchange can be worth, depending on the run
true fable
but that's a smaller gripe
and one that will change once they allow cross saves and i can play on switch
turns out being able to move in more than 8 directions is pretty big
honest kernel
yeah
edgy arrow
i mostly play beo these days (cries in former chaos main) which already has a decent ranged option, so that may be biasing me
i should prolly give it more of a chance
true fable
i like charged shot on beo tbh
my pb with beo i got charged shot with a hammer start
kinda weird but it works
edgy arrow
now i’m thinking about it, idk if i’ve ever taken it on beo lol
which is whack cause i play beo constantly
i assume the cast procs at the end of the shot?
edgy arrow
sorta like hera?
true fable
im using beo and i got hyper sprint into rush delivery
you just insta phase hades with 2 cast stones
honest kernel
Looking at the list of hammers for shield, Zeus aspect. Sudden Rush is great, Pulverizing Blow can be good, altho no knockback is a curse and a blessing. Dashing Wallop's ok, Explosive Return is great, Minotaur Rush can work fine for rooms, Breaching Rush is decent anti-armor tech. Charged Shot is situationally great or meh, Empowering Flight is fantastic, Ferocious Guard is kinda like a common Billowing Strenght but also gives you speed and works on block rather than on call.
Honestly, very few misses for Zeus aspect
true fable
feels like i'd want empowering flight + breaching rush for high heat but i'm also more of a chaos guy
honest kernel
Empowering Flight is the #1 for sure
After that, for me, it's a mix of Sudden Rush, Breaching Rush, Ferocious Guard, Explosive Return
true fable
breaching rush is a pretty weak "breaching" hammer but maybe i'm just spoiled by breaching cross
thorn cape
Isn't max heat like 20??? How do you get more than that?
true fable
still better the breaching slash LUL
honest kernel
^
edgy arrow
oh just for zeus? yeah that makes sense
true fable
@thorn cape you can exceed the heat gauge
honest kernel
And any damage helps a ton with shield
honest kernel
That includes armor for rooms
edgy arrow
the main issue with breaching slash is you need to play with a sword lol
honest kernel
^^^^^^
true fable
there are many issues with breaching slash that have been covered many times i think
i still wish to know why piercing wave applies to dash strikes while every other doesn't
but that feels like opening a can of worms
honest kernel
A can full of hydras
And lernie's in there too
Pull one out, and more issues come out lol
edgy arrow
okay showing how little i play sword here: breaching slash doesn’t apply to dash strike?
lmao
that’s legitimately hilarious
ripe crane
All this talk of Zeus shield made me want to try a run. It's so slow. Feels like I need to take 7 minutes. So I did, which was kind of nice because I don't need to take midshops to save time. You get some extra stuff that way. I'm doing 45 heat though.
Also, Erebus rooms are basically made for making the shield chase you as you dash around the outside of the room. Enemies will congregate towards the middle to chase you, as will your shield.
honest kernel
My TD3 runs were close, yeah
I'd get around 17-19 minutes runs
With 2-3 sacks
Altho my setups were less than ideal, as I was messing around with different specials
Spoilers : Don't bother with Dio on special, it's too slow lol
Dio on attack with say Bad Influence for room clears is an idea I should mess around with
true fable
i love bad influence
before i found out about dad keepsake i always did dio call + bad influence for room clears if i could
honest kernel
Speaking of
edgy arrow
how can you dio call with dad keepsake
honest kernel
How the hell does the Hades keepsake interat with the Zeus aspect special
edgy arrow
damage buff from hades is universal, right?
honest kernel
... Wait, the damage is for the entire duration, and doesn't end when you do an attack/special ?
For the non-full call that is
true fable
i meant before i did hades call
edgy arrow
i believe so
honest kernel
... WELP
edgy arrow
that’s why speedrunners like it
honest kernel
Now I know what to mess around with in Elysium lmao
honest kernel
I'll test it anyways, since one of the 2 paths I go for is Zeus
true fable
not very useful for high heat imo since you need acorn
true fable
or broken spearpoint if you have a bigger brain than me
ripe crane
I died with a Heroic level 5 doom special in Tartarus. I kind of hate this weapon xd
honest kernel
Forced Merciful End ?
true fable
which weapon
ripe crane
I actually took Zeus special and ares offered a trade
true fable
zeus shield?
ripe crane
ya
true fable
crepes can you beat 52 heat with hestia so we can officially say that hestia is the better rail aspect
ripe crane
There are no more heats to take. Not possible.
honest kernel
Hmm, reminds me : How does the Lucifer buffed special feel like for high heat
Didn't get to play with that much
true fable
i know onyx likes lucifer a lot now
edgy arrow
haven’t seen it doing much higher than 32 yet
true fable
divine hellfire stuff
edgy arrow
i actually haven’t had the chance to try it myself either
there are so many weapons in this game lol
true fable
yeah yesterday i was getting bored after like 250 hours of this game
edgy arrow
and i play beowulf 90% of the time for some reason
true fable
and then i tried hestia again