for rama would DC2 be advisable?
#h1-high-heat-strategies
random bough
daring hedge
yeah, rama does fine with DC2
you'll want to apply special on things first anyway, and those strip the DC hearts
random bough
do you just keep dying until you get a decent seed
well just for the starting boon/hammer
i mean anyone in general who does 40+ heat
daring hedge
are you running SD?
uncut wigeon
Yep
uncut wigeon
From what i've gathered in tbis channel
Those difficulty settings more or less define high heat
daring hedge
those are pretty good baseline ones, yeah. though I didn't even run LC4 or SD until i got to 40+
but yeah if you are using SD LC4 naturally goes with it and you get used to refreshing it, etc.
UC is another that's good to get used to, since it's hard to avoid at high heat
uncut wigeon
damn, the things I posted are 16 heat, think Nyaan mentioned that already though
Oh, need BP2
Alright, so i have...
LC4, EM2, BP2, MM, FO2, TD2
random bough
you just listed them in a different order lol
uncut wigeon
Relisted them based on how they appeared in tbe PoP on my screen.
random bough
I'd assume underworld customs is also standard
random bough
you're doing 32?
uncut wigeon
wanna get used to high heat combat
uncut wigeon
EM4 is probably avoidable if I wanna clear 32 with all weapons and then do 40.
daring hedge
EM4 is really tough in conjunction with a heavy amount of other pact options
you can probably avoid it entirely until like ~45
but that's totally up to you
faint orbit
hmm
uncut wigeon
LMAO this run was as blessed as I could've hoped.
balmy vapor
tidal flame
which weapon/aspect?
I can probably cobble up something that works for me. you can build off that, maybe?
uncut wigeon
Man, those settings change the whole game. I can see about Maim basically not existing in FO2
cloud nebula
those lasers through the posts on last fight AUUUURGH
ember bronze
Random: does Lightning Rod change something about how/where cast stones drop?
I rarely play it, I'm playing it now, and I feel like stones keep dropping in places I can't pick them up
wanton plover
not that i know of. however i know their pickup radius is reduced
ember bronze
that must be it
What's the right way to play Lightning Rod with Poseidon Sword?
As far as casting vs. leaving them on the ground
wanton plover
i like zeus cast and get jolted, any special to proc privilege, and ofc athena dash. i would not like lightning rod bc i wanna pick up my casts
the art dislodge boon is needed and the hermes boon to make casts automatically come back
ember bronze
Why is making them come back good with Lightning Rod?
hollow lynx
it's not
lightning rod is not good for cast builds because you want to pick up your casts as fast as possible
LR is best used in non cast builds, because you're not using them for anything besides debuffs anyways, and you only need one in an enemy to debuff
dull scroll
Man, had a couple 32 runs with bow that went all the way to EM4 boss, but he still got me in the end
Though, at least now I get to brag about getting all achievements
dull scroll
So, I'm wondering how people deal with EM3 champions. I used to take out Asterius first on normal fight, then go for Theseus, but when I'm doing EM3, I find that it's easier for me to take out the chariot and then try to nuke Theseus and get him out of the way first before focusing on the bull
tardy path
To be fair, that does work as well. I've been working to beating them both at the same time, but you can still focus the bull. The two moves you want to avoid are Asterius' spin and Theseus' bombs
dull scroll
I noticed that it's not that hard to avoid Asterius while you chase Theseus, and the bombs land right behind you, so you're safe. If I have a build with a lot of damage, then I take them on both at once
It's just that Asterius has so much health that while you try to whittle him down, Theseus keeps harassing you with bombs and bullets
ember bronze
I tried 32 with EM4 once and then never went back
Maybe I should learn it? But it seems horrifying
(I beat EM4 on 10 heat once just to see it)
mossy zinc
Learn it if you want to. There's no requirement to do it.
dull scroll
EM4 on 10 heat is pretty manageable. You can get up to heat 20 with conditions that don't really make it any harder too. But at 32, you either have to be godly at dodging and managing the fight, or get very lucky and get an OP build despite having limited boon choice and quality
mossy zinc
Focusing down EM Theseus first isn't really an option with just a single dash or with Malphon. So it depends on things like that.
dull scroll
I actually just did Maplhon (Talos) run, with frost on my uppercut - managed to chase him down just fine
mossy zinc
Ah yeah, I've never actually done the fight without FO2 lol.
dull scroll
Ever since bastion, faster enemies was the hardest modifier
bronze viper
I am not familiar with the Bastion meta lol. Though I do recall there being an idol that made enemies randomly intangible that drove me up the wall
dull scroll
I haven't played Bastion in a long time, but back when I did, the speed up idol was absolutely the worst
ember bronze
FO1 feels fine to get use to playing on. FO2 is surprisingly harsh. I haven't been doing it for 32, it just makes every engagement in every room constantly harder
faint orbit
welp. Got to Hades again. Died to Hades again. At least got to phase 3, but ran out of time :< (Heat 32)
shut field
I just finished a 32 earlier
faint orbit
If it was EM3, that'd be a win
ember bronze
That's the other thing--if EM4 means you can't easily do TD3, it's not worth much
faint orbit
mine was in TD2 lol
maybe I should try bow
the other thing was he summoned the butterfly guy, who teleported around and just painted a happy picture of deadly butterflies everywhere
shut field
I did EM3, max Hard Labor, Max Convenience Fee, Max Jury Summons (but didn't use tight deadline because of that, takes way too long to clear), EM3, no forced overtime, middle management, heightened security, definitely no forced overtime, 2 damage control
I think that's it
dull scroll
I wanna try Hades aspect next time. Maybe that can work
shut field
I used Chiron with Zeus on special, not blazing fast, but safe
faint orbit
I think I'm going to drop TD
dull scroll
Hades aspect and Aphrodite attack... yeah, I think that could work
It's either TD or Jury Summons, really
shut field
Yeah, you definitely can't do both
faint orbit
I'm aiming for 32
shut field
I decided to just not go with TD at all and max jury summons. Since I was playing bow it took forever, but yeah, without the pressure of TD could play super safe
dull scroll
TD2 is also reasonable, if you take charon shops and maybe avoid CP as well
faint orbit
It was generally reasonable, but still
shut field
part of the problem for me is that I couldn't handle much lasting consequences beyond the 1 that is on hell mode by default
faint orbit
forced overtime is throwing me off a lot
shut field
so I basically just tweaked it around keeping that base and keeping TD off, finally found the combo that worked.
yeah, I tried forced overtime at first, but some stuff is WAY too dangerous, especially if you're playing with BP too
shut field
I was kiting stuff around elysium for like 10 minute and decided, nope, this is not the way
faint orbit
that's why I like shield, tbh
slow spoke
using the cast that slows them down by 25% helps a lot
wanton plover
also if you struggle with LC try using stubborn defiance
faint orbit
yeah I did quite a few runs with that at first
slow spoke
Hermes toy can make you get really fast if you do well with it
faint orbit
dad pushed my face in
wanton plover
yep that’s usually the case
shut field
i got it done eventually and my actual heat is like 16ish for everything, so won't have to go back up that high for a long time
wanton plover
one cheesy thing you can do, lose the defi, pick up athena boon and get something to refill it and you carry 2 defiance at once
faint orbit
a combination of attack speed increase throwing me off, stress and hades going nothing personnel kid
I'mma try again after my shakes are gone lol
wanton plover
and patroclus helps so much for final boss if you 2sack
slow spoke
I got the thing from the wine god that slowed drunk guys down by like 36%
helped big time on the final boss
I just wish I had chill too, that would have been funny to see
onyx forge
Any advice for dealing with single butterfly spawn into double butterfly spawn on Hades EM4? I always lose 1-2 deaths defiance on phase 1 when that happens and then lose to hades.
wraith imp
i had some time today...
and i played at least 1 aspect of each weapon...
going back to what @bronze viper and I were talking about the other day...
it's general consensus that shield is the most noob-friendly (i.e. forgiving weapon) and it gives players a false sense of ability.
i think bow is the one that truly improves general play because (imo) it does the best job of innately teaching positioning.
Now, every aspect has an optimal build or builds and, therefore, encourages a certain play style w/r/t build.
But for those that want to truly become better at the game and take on high heat, i would encourage you to play with bow and increase by 1-2 heat after a few successful runs.
Recently, I've been taking persephone's keepsake at the start of the run and just taking whatever boon the game gives me and sticking with that keepsake throughout. This encourages creativity/experimentation and prevents me from always relying on optimal builds. You can get some surprisingly strong builds this way...
Any advice for dealing with single butterfly spawn into double butterfly spawn on Hades EM4? I always lose 1-2 deaths defiance on phase 1 when that happens and then lose to hades.
@onyx forge
What weapon and aspect are you using?
onyx forge
Aegis for shield, GY or Hades for spear, Chiron for bow, and regular malphon.
With the other spawns I can usually do fine, but butterflies always seems to screw me up. They go invis for really long periods so I can't kill them. Bursting hades down from second bar is hard because the damage calls go to the wrong enemy sometimes and Meg sometimes just hits the wrong thing too.
I'm at 20 odd head right now depending on the weapon, I usually get to hades with 2-3 deaths defiance in the bank and 250+ hp.
dull scroll
I'd say try to aim to get a hammer upgrade that gives you armor damage to take out the first ball, then burst down Hades' last third
Hades can be avoided relatively safely to focus on just one extra enemy, in my experience
wraith imp
i can tell you what i do to deal with them.
athena's dash is often prized for its ability to deflect...
but i find myself opting for poseidon's splash dash (especially with razor shoals + breaking wave) helps keep those annoying enemies from getting close to me.
In essence, poseidon's dash kind of acts like a pseudo-barrier.
Also, i recommend using meg to take out the ball. Her damage is more important in taking out that one annoying enemy so that you can deal with hades 1-on-1. Relatively, speaking her 2500 damage isn't all that important against hades. I've used thanatos against hades and his 3500 damage didn't actually take out as large a chunk as i was expecting.
onyx forge
I'll give that a try thanks.
wraith imp
also...whereas athena's dash is weak in terms of damage...poseidon's dash is now incredible especially with the recently buffed razor shoals.
usually, my razor shoals does around 25 damager per 0.2 sec.
onyx forge
Razor shoals was rupture?
wraith imp
yes
razor shoals gives rupture status curse
poseidon's regular dash doesn't apply a status curse on its own
hence, need to combine it with razor shoals which applies rupture
if you can also get breaking wave...take that too
onyx forge
I'll definitely have to give poseidon dash a try. Been running deflect more often then not.
Breaking wave was the legendary right?
wraith imp
try it...
do a lot of zig zag with poseidon's dash and you'll realize just how amazing it is at wiping out enemies
it's incredibly effective for crowd control
Breaking wave was the legendary right?
@onyx forge
no, that's not his legendary
poseidon has a number of boons...
razor shoals
breaking wave
typhoon's fury
sea storm (duo with zeus)
his legendary is second wave
but to maximize poseidon...take his dash (or any of his attack/special/dash) boons and then try to get razor shoals.
onyx forge
Thanks for the advice, going to give it a try for sure on a future run.
wraith imp
razor shoals does A LOT of passive damage.
example: 25 x 0.2 x 5 x 3 (rupture lasts for 3 seconds) = 375
bronze viper
You don't really have to make a sacrifice. Poseidon's Aid still let's you do all those things while leaving Divine Dash open.
bronze viper
Though I will say that if you get Razor Shoals, Tidal Dash does kind of obscene damage. If you don't it's kind of whatever.
wraith imp
yeah...poseidon's dash +razor shoals OR poseidon's dash + breaking wave
obviously best if you can get all 3.
bronze viper
Breaking Wave Im colder on since it doesn't work on bosses.
dull scroll
Don't forget wave pounding, too
wraith imp
you're right...i forgot about that...but i'm partial to typhoon's fury
bronze viper
Wave pounding shines on Poseidon's Aid. It's fairly negligible on the dash though
wraith imp
btw...
the other day...(i want to say 2 nights ago)...i did a poseidon run on zeus shield...
i was shocked to learn that poseidon's special on the semi-autonomous shield pushed hades away
iirc, i didn't have wave pounding.
like...if i deployed the shield in front of me...
invisible hades or visible hades couldn't get past the shield
and was pushed away.
bronze viper
Also, @wraith imp, re: your Bow post, I don't know if I can agree with that. Shield is a lot less noob friendly than it used to be now. Positioning can be learned on any weapon/aspect. I don't think Bow is the best way to learn the game. Bow is the best way to learn Bow.
wraith imp
my post is undoubtedly colored by my own experiences...but i've found that i'm much better at handing high heat now after playing with bow.
example: i used to do like 10 runs of shield followed by 3-5 runs of another weapon
i was so terrible at bow that i would almost never pick it
but recently i forced myself to play with it...
and i'm now doing waaaaaay better with all other weapons
but of course...everyone's playstyle is different
i like melee a lot.
i would try to play melee style with bow and that would get me killed against hades
perhaps your last statement is right "bow is the best way to play with bow"
perhaps i'm now better acclimated (re: a mental switch on how to better use bow) has improved my general play
bronze viper
For me, learning Malphon probably taught me the most for other aspects. I'm still relatively bad at Malphon (I totally fold if I'm above 40...), but I was able to transfer skills of stopping attack to intentionally dodge something, and really getting iframes down.
wraith imp
that said, i do feel that my overall positioning has improved substantially and a lot of that has to do with bow teaching me how to better position myself for long-range attacks.
bronze viper
But I go at that from the perspective of someone who gravitated to the Bow very early
wraith imp
For me, learning Malphon probably taught me the most for other aspects. I'm still relatively bad at Malphon (I totally fold if I'm above 40...), but I was able to transfer skills of stopping attack to intentionally dodge something, and really getting iframes down.
@bronze viper
yep...i can see how one weapon's strengths can be a problem/hindrance on another weapon.
For instance, shield's blocking ability negated so much damage...that's just not feasible on other weapons.
bronze viper
Right. No other weapon can see 3 skulls rings, a super elite Greatbow, and a spinning Dad and decide "I would like to not take damage from this right now, without repositioning or spending a resource"
But the reward mechanism isn't there anymore. Previously, you would block all of those, then press Special and everything would get hit, and that would be your ideal damage loop anyway
So it balances out. Chaos is no longer so hand holdy
wraith imp
btw, i've noticed something about zeus shield and athena deflect when playing against hades in 1.0
in pre-1.0, i would deploy athena special on zeus shield and hades' projectile would get launhced right back at hades and he would take damage...
now...it seems SGG added something such that the deflected projectile no longer damages hades.
i'm...annoyed about this change.
bronze viper
It may be that he takes significantly less deflect damage
And the skulls no longer disappear when deflected, which is the real nerf
(Or buff, to Hades)
bronze viper
Previously iirc the skulls would deflect for 400 damage? I don't actually know if that scales with HL. There was kind of no reason not to do it. Now it's kind of fine to just let him throw the skulls out if killing it would be easier where it lands.
keen kettle
IIRC, the numbers i saw on the deflect on skulls is very low
wraith imp
i now think poseidon special + sea storm duo boon is the best build for zeus shield (even above merciful end). i like to combine it with empowering flight (special damage empowers attack) and charged shot. i like to have either demeter or aphro on attack.
merciful end doesn't trigger for every revolution of the zeus shield. but sea storm does...
bronze viper
Does stuff actually stay in the shield to get hit though?
I would think Tempest Flourish would just hit stuff a couple of times then be totally out of range
wraith imp
oh...i also usually take high voltage...and then buff it.
but the poseidon special on shield also applies razor shoals
interestingly, it doesn't push enemies back as far as you would expect
bronze viper
Seems like at this point you'd probably just prefer going Thunder Flourish
wraith imp
yeah...that works well too
bronze viper
For simplicity and reproducibility too
wraith imp
but sea storm triggers when an enemy is pushed back
but yes...zeus build is easier than sea storm build
i probably had the optimal poseidon/zeus build on that run
i tried it out iwith zeus special and even withtout his legendary, he was annihilating.
zeus special + high voltage + double strike was incredible
didn't even need jolted
keen kettle
What build allows you to run TD2 on shield? Am i just playing shield wrong cause seems like damage output is low outside of ME
wraith imp
sure, for zeus shield:
so try zeus special + high voltage + double strike
or try poseidon special + razor shoals (+ breaking wave)...add zeus somewhere to get sea storm when possible
i've done both in the newly reworked td2 and finished in about 20-24 minutes on 18-24 heat
best run was 18 minutes on td3 but that run was 12 heat iirc.
bronze viper
Pretty much any build should allow you to run TD2 in 1.0
It's kind of a mechanics check
keen kettle
Shield's my worst weapon, so might not working the proper rotations
wraith imp
this might be blasphemous...but i now like zeus shield >>> chaos aspect shield
bronze viper
Probably. I don't see an issue hitting TD2 with any of the 4 aspects though
@wraith imp It's possible that was even true in Blood Price, but Zeus is a lot less optimized from a gameplay standpoint
wraith imp
oh, how so?
i feel like more of the hammers work better with zeus shield than chaos shield
proud jay
unseeded 50 heat EM4 done btw
proud jay
eris rail
wraith imp
ah
keen kettle
of course it is
wraith imp
cluster bomb?
bronze stratus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je6qJ_0U1ok hey, so... legit, how do you go this fast???
proud jay
@bronze stratus vorime things. unrelevant to discussion in this channel though
bronze viper
Lol, if I had to hazard a guess, did you start Lightning Strike, then get Poseidon's Aid?
proud jay
athena's aid this time
bronze viper
Fancy
bronze viper
Makes it more impressive that you didn't. I've been doing 40 unseeded with Eris and noticed a hilarious dip in effort necessary if I hit Poseidon's
proud jay
yeah it's srs damage
and if you manage to find rip current even normal encounters are ez
bronze viper
Oh for sure. Clouded Judgement + Rip Tide makes non-bosses totally free, no matter what mods
proud jay
yeah suddenly i like picking up coulded judgement lol
bronze viper
I disagree with Nyaa, I think it's better than Smoldering. You don't need Aphro to make it work
Not in a vacuum obviously, Smoldering is better than everything in a vacuum
But in this exact situation lol
proud jay
greater calls are probably better for EM4
and yeah, aphro isn't the most useful god in general
even if she offers weak
bronze viper
Somewhere, Nyaa twitches in pain
keen kettle
kekw
wraith imp
and yeah, aphro isn't the most useful in general
@proud jay
i don't know about useful but she might be the most versatile
bronze viper
Athena dawg
proud jay
^
wraith imp
naw
keen kettle
@bronze viper there some attempts during my 32 heat run that i just fail in tartarus because of those numbskulls with the shield modifier, and i simply can't break through the shields fast enough. How do you deal with that with bow early on
proud jay
dd, exposed, parting shot
bronze viper
With Rama, just special spam. WIth other Bows, you can buffer a special right after an attack to burst down anything close by
proud jay
the only bad boon from athena is bronze skin
keen kettle
Hmm yeah, when i did it, it just takes too much time. So annoying
bronze viper
Athena has like... the most absurdly good spread of boons. Even her worst boons do something
keen kettle
bronze skin is still 10% damage reduction, would still take that over artemis call kek
wraith imp
the only bad boon from athena is bronze skin
@proud jay
is it bad?
isn't that similar to aphro's damage reduction?
bronze viper
It's her worst boon, yes
proud jay
weak is 30%
wraith imp
no, i know
keen kettle
i think he's referring to damage reduction on close enemies
wraith imp
but doesn't aphro also have a damage reduction boon of her own?
proud jay
ah yes
bronze viper
Weak +10% is insane
keen kettle
i think its higher % than bronze skin but only for "close enemies"
keen kettle
isnt it the other way around?
proud jay
somehow i read that wrong
keen kettle
like multiplicative would mean X * (1-30%) * (1-10%) as opposed to additive being X * (1-[30% + 10%]) or am i being dumb
bronze viper
We're talking about the comparable Aphro boon that makes weak +10% better right?
keen kettle
and in that sense, wouldnt Additive have a bigger effect?
not specifically to the weak and bronze skin but like in general mathematic terms
proud jay
not sure how weak + broken resolve is calculated though
it still might be 30%+10%
separately
wraith imp
like multiplicative would mean X * 30% * 10% as opposed to additive being X * (30% + 10%) or am i being dumb
@keen kettle
yes
actually it would be like X * (1-n) * (1-z)
bronze viper
Hmm, actually, mathing it out, it really doesn't make TOO much of a difference. Broken Resolve is better because it's base 10%, versus base 5% of Bronze Skin
It'd be very slightly better even if the bases were the same, but the raw number matters more here.
Anyways, for other boons, Holy Shield is probably the next worse (besides the core boon for the slot you're not using, Flourish/Strike)
And it's not even bad
bronze viper
Compared to Aphrodite. Crush Shot, Passion Dash, Aphro's Aid (while not.. awful is pretty situational still), Wave of Despair, Empty Inside, Sweet Surrender are all actively bad.
proud jay
aphro's aid has some uses though
bronze viper
Life Affirmation is great but only early, Dying Lament is fine in Styx but still quite limited and does nothing vs. bosses, Broken Resolve and Different League are... fine
proud jay
and yeah, sweet surrender is kinda underwhelming
honest kernel
oh you dont like sweet surrender? it sounds kinda good
but I guess ze numbers are underwhelming
proud jay
im pretty sure it's additive with other sources of damage
bronze viper
It's around twice as good as Urge to Kill
Which is not the best benchmark for boon quality lol
proud jay
yeah it's kinda comparable to a pom
except it's global
i guess it's ok but not amazing
wraith imp
i like holy shield
@proud jay
i don't...it always seem to trigger long after i get hit...deflects almost nothing back.
honest kernel
hmmm I see
wraith imp
i know many people talk about holy shield and like it...but in my experience it's borderline useless
proud jay
i'll take any other deflect over holy shield but it still does something usually
bronze viper
If Holy Shield prevents a single full hit per encounter with HL5 it's probably already doing more than any other damage mitigation boon
wraith imp
weird...i'm almost always playing on hl3
or higher
like i can see it trigger after i get hit
but (judging from what i've seen on haelian's runs), it doesn't work well for me...
am i doing something wrong?
bronze viper
1 useful block per encounter isn't asking too much though, and yeah, it feels bad to see every other time where it does nothing.
proud jay
the better you get the less valuable holy shield becomes
bronze viper
But assume it stops a single attack worth 80 damage. For Different League to prevent that much damage you'd have to get hit for 800 damage
So it could whiff on literally every other proc and it would still be worth a ton more than pure damage reduction boons
bronze viper
It's kind of the reason I argue against Dodge being calculated as a direct multiplier to your health. If you're at 1 health and dodge a hit for 100 you're soooo ahead
Yeah, on average, across a million iterations Dodge will end up being a direct health multiplier, but on the margin it has the potential to do a lot more than that
The exchange is that you can't ever rely on it to happen lol
proud jay
yeah dodge is really valuable
wraith imp
It's kind of the reason I argue against Dodge being calculated as a direct multiplier to your health. If you're at 1 health and dodge a hit for 100 you're soooo ahead
@bronze viper
Uh, I didn't get this.
ELI5.
"Explain like I'm 5."
keen kettle
Most games that has a dodge/evade mechanic would present dodge as greater effective health
wraith imp
Sure. But what's the reasoning.
keen kettle
when counting it as average and continuous damage
bronze viper
Over an infinite number of iterations, Dodge's expected value will approach the same amount of effective health as if you had your dodge percentage multiplied onto your life total.
However, we don't live in infinite land
keen kettle
The reason why you do that, is because in some games, its a way to compare different builds/buffs/bonuses and which is more optimal
because there are games where X gives you Y health and A gives B dodge
so thats the way you compare them in those type of games
In deciding builds and such
Its common in like MMORPGs like WoW or MOBAS like Dota
bronze viper
On the margin, Dodge can do things like extend your life total past the point that pure extra health or damage mitigation can. For extra health and mitigation, you know what you're getting. If I have 50% mitigation and 100 health, I can take 150 damage worth of hits. Period.
keen kettle
how much the concept applies to Hades, well i'm not an expert in Hades yet, still a student
bronze viper
If I have 50% dodge with 100% health, assuming 50 damage hits, I could have effectively 100, 150, 200, 250... health
So the floor is lower than extra health or mitigation, but that's not really important since on average, it will be the same. But the ceiling is MUCH higher
wraith imp
ok, i understand it conceptually
If I have 50% dodge with 100% health, assuming 50 damage hits, I could have effectively 100, 150, 200, 250... health
@bronze viper
but i didn't understand the math here
bronze viper
100 (dodge 0), 150 (dodge 1), 200 (dodge 2)...
keen kettle
Rama is talking about the non average/deviant events from statistical calculations
wraith imp
100 (dodge 0), 150 (dodge 1), 200 (dodge 2)...
@bronze viper
ah, i see
ok, i got hung up on "50 damage hits"
wasn't quite sure what you meant by that...
like were you talking 50 instances of damage or a single instance of 50 damage.
it's the latter
now it makes sense
yeah, it makes sense now
dodge is hit or miss.
so whereas mitigation tells you exactly
dodge has massive upside
but timing dodge is tough
bronze viper
Now, to break everything I said, in the real world things get ugly. If you have 100 health, and an attack does 110 damage, 20% damage mitigation will probably be better than 20% dodge.
keen kettle
kekw
bronze viper
lmao
bronze viper
Does dodge dodge Boiling Blood from Dad as well?
keen kettle
You know i never know what Boiling blood actually does
wraith imp
g'night folks.
@keen kettle and @bronze viper
Thanks for the explanation on dodge and comparing builds. I learned something new.
keen kettle
no worries
keen kettle
@bronze viper Its impossible to literally one shot any boss right
bronze viper
Every boss boss has phases, yes
keen kettle
thought so, friend showed me a tweet about one shotting a boss in the game and i was like, isnt that impossible
minor rover
Anyone else feel EM lernie is more difficult than EM thesius and asterius?
minor rover
Lol yeah XD and he takes forever to kill
keen kettle
Lernie is pure annoyance
minor rover
Cuz of 3 invulnerablity phases
bronze viper
White Lernie on some aspects is a major headache
keen kettle
i find lernie that spits out lava and makes ceiling drop the worst
minor rover
Yeah the screen gets quite cluttered, where as theseus and asterius just kinda die
bronze viper
EM3 gets scary with FO2 and HLx
keen kettle
out of curiosity whats ur highest @bronze viper
bronze viper
49
keen kettle
i've never actually asked
bronze viper
On Rama
minor rover
Everything is scary with FO2, but ig you're correct, I was just wondering if anyone else found em3 easier cuz of chariot being killed so quick, then just use a call while he's calling the gods
keen kettle
I mean EM3 asterius is scary while theseus limits ur movement
Theseus on his own doesn't do much
minor rover
Asterius is definitely scary yeah and as mentioned fo makes it worse
So for speed running is em thesius faster than non em?
bronze viper
Theseus can control space really well. It's random, but yeah. Sometimes you aren't afforded the space to easily get Asterius to ram a wall or pillar
bronze viper
Lol, that's a huge buff in 1.0. Blood Price the behavior was much funnier, where Asterius would just charge in a tight circle and wait for the invuln to end then continue charging at you
bronze viper
Nope, need imgur or equivalent
bronze viper
No.
As a general rule of thumb any call that requires you to have full charge to be useful is bad. E.g. Artemis.
||And other calls don't cut off your keepsake slot||
keen kettle
kek thought so
minor rover
is deep pockets actually good at high heat?
honest kernel
yeah
lets you get shop items early
other than that ur prob gonna ditch it with RI2 anyway
minor rover
RI2?
trim sigil
Golden touch is good and all but in order to get sizable benefit from it you have to be deprived of boons for the most of the game where main action happens
So deep pockets are usually a safer bet
mossy zinc
Deep Pockets is very noticeable.
minor rover
oh thanks
empty pawn
Do you high heat players use kbm or controller
static plover
I've seen a mix of kbm, controller and controller + mouse
so it's entirely personal preference
minor rover
what is generally considered high heat
empty pawn
20 or 30 plus
minor rover
whoooh im a high heat player just won 32
minor rover
its fun, obviously im just getting into high heat
empty pawn
My weapons aren’t stronge enough yet
wicked bluff
I don’t have any plans to play high heat a lot; but I want that statue; so, what’s a good weapon/build to go for that 32 with and what punishments should I turn on?
mossy zinc
Our pinned spreadsheet for high heat clears starts at 40.
minor rover
dang, 8 more heat
random bough
@wicked bluff hestia is a good weapon to go with since it needs very few boons and maybe a hammer to work well and has great range and damage. for 32 just don't take DC, CP, JS or TD3
No need to take AP or RI either
mossy zinc
TD3 without JS etc. is fine if you're good at clearing fast.
random bough
If you can aim well and you get ricochet/piercing then I guess TD3 is alright
minor rover
i did 32 head with TD3 and time to spare
given i used chaos shield which is pretty strong
mossy zinc
Best aspect is just whatever you're most comfortable with. Learning a new aspect can take longer than just doing it with whatever you're good with.
Plus, you might have a series of failures before you make it. Playing an aspect you don't enjoy only because it's supposedly better doesn't really help with motivation.
trim sigil
(and at the end of the day you may not like it at all which ruins said supposed advantage)
mossy zinc
Eris has a learning curve?
wicked bluff
would Nemesis work ok
bronze viper
That's the joke 
mossy zinc
Nemesis is great.
Just put Deflect on everything. Throw in some crit boon to unlock Deadly Reversal.
random bough
Any weapon works great on 32 with the right pact and seed
mossy zinc
You don't need seeds for 32 Heat.
minor rover
how do you seed i havent seen an option for that?
random bough
You don't need a seed yes
bronze viper
Ugh, it took like, 3 days of real grinding for me to squeeze out 40 on Nemesis. Talk about a learning curve. So bad.
mossy zinc
Die a lot until you get the starting boon or hammer you want.
That's only really meta for 40+.
minor rover
oh lol so its just cheesing the start not actually seeding?
mossy zinc
Well, not that much at 40. Above that, though.
random bough
And give up just before dying when you get a good starting boon or hammer
bronze viper
You can get a seed by killing yourself and starting over lol. I recommend disabling SD/DD and extra life from mirror, and turning FO2 and HL5
minor rover
giving up only retains the first item if im not mistaken?
bronze viper
"kind of"
minor rover
bosses, eg meg tis or alecto change and so does boons and order?
sharp dagger
what would you guys say is the "meta" for Talos Gloves? if it is a weapon thats used in High Heat. But im currently moving up with it and i enjoy it
mossy zinc
You don't need a seed for 32, anyway. You can waste more time trying to find the "right" starting boon/hammer than your actual run would take if you just went for it.
random bough
You can get a seed by killing yourself and starting over lol. I recommend disabling SD/DD and extra life from mirror, and turning FO2 and HL5
From doing this I learnt that zag spills blood when getting hit
bronze viper
The first room is static for boons, but there are a semi-finite number of generated rooms that can spawn from a particular seed
If you play a seed long enough you will start to just naturally pick these up, stuff like "oh, this Athena room will have x, y, and z boon."
Doing this intentionally is called routing.
mossy zinc
@sharp dagger Talos builds are the same as Zag Aspect and Demeter Aspect.
Except that for Demeter Aspect, you'll also want Explosive Upper and some Special boon.
Zag Aspect and Talos don't really care for that.
sharp dagger
what are those builds, is there an overview somewhere?
bronze viper
nawp
mossy zinc
Deflect on Attack or Dash or both.
Otherwise, basically just this https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2233472883
bronze viper
When she says "Talos builds" it's because she made them up herself lol. It's one of the least represented weapons.
trim sigil
mossy zinc
Because people suck with it lol.
bronze viper
Very similar to when I said "Rama builds" from Blood Price lol. People would just pat me on the head and be like, "okay dear."
mossy zinc
The most important thing to know is that you don't wait for "pull > upper" when you use the Special.
dull scroll
Talos is so nice, though
mossy zinc
You just cancel your Special immediately into empty Dash.
dull scroll
Pull has so much utility
bronze viper
Slooow
mossy zinc
Because the Uppercut is too slow and leaves you very vulnerable.
minor rover
demeter utilises killing enemies
mossy zinc
You just want to pull the enemy and apply your debuff.
Then you can use their momentum + your own dash to e.g. get right behind them for backstabs.
sharp dagger
ohhh
mossy zinc
(Don't pull Witches etc. just as they're readying their projectiles. 
)
fossil chasm
Hmm. I never considered just using the pull. I guess that would be pretty good
mossy zinc
That's why they call me the Queen of Malphon. 👸🏽
bronze viper
"they"
mossy zinc
Hmmmm?
sharp dagger
I do! Now at least 😄
mossy zinc
👸🏽
sharp dagger
welp, time to try the combo out, thank you everyone!
bronze viper
Lol, I stand corrected
fossil chasm
Queens don't have to be elected anyway 🤣
But I think i'll definitely try that aspect out. I've been avoiding it because i'm bad with the fists and I am on my best win streak
minor rover
for high heat what are "good" times
minor rover
yeah
mossy zinc
Anything that's under whatever TD you picked.
minor rover
lmao good point
i guess i kinda meant is speed running ever combined with high heat?
mossy zinc
lol the speedrunners have a 50 Heat category on speedrun.com that not a single person runs.
Predictably.
mossy zinc
Yeah, we're 5 people who've done 50+ at all, so any one 50+ run would be #1 on speedrun.com. Not a lot of competition there.
5 seeded, 1 pretty much fully routed.
static plover
Probably would have been better for the category to be 40+ heat opens it up for more people that
minor rover
i cant even see any 50+ heat runs on speedrun.com lol
bronze viper
bablo finished Eris yesterday at 50 unseeded
Because he's @proud jay #justbablothings
mossy zinc
Ah nice.
static plover
Niceu :3
mossy zinc
bablo is the only one who gets to play anymore, isn't he.
minor rover
so have people not completed 50+ heat?
static plover
It's there a video of it anywhere? I kinda wanna get better at using eris since I'm terrible at using it
mossy zinc
@proud jay congrats on 50 Eris!
bronze viper
In the high heat community?
It's him and Tailesque I think.
I wish I had time :3
proud jay
@mossy zinc thanks i did it twice
mossy zinc
lol congrats x2 then.
proud jay
now i'd like to do it with different weapons
bronze viper
You mean weapons that don't start off the game with a 75% Double Strike?
minor rover
is benefits package two just like death?
mossy zinc
@minor rover like I said, 5 people did 50+ but that was pre-1.0. And 1 person did a pretty much fully routed 57 pre-1.0.
bronze viper
1 person did 50 non-shield. Well, 2 now
minor rover
damn, i didnt think 50 heat could be that bad
bronze viper
It is lol
mossy zinc
I also wouldn't bother submitting any 50+ to speedrun.com.
minor rover
speedrun looks pretty dead
bronze viper
(they chose a dumb category and got suitably punished)
minor rover
so where is the majority of the speedrunning community? discord?
minor rover
dang cool kids only
static plover
There's a link to it the Speedrun.com page for Hades
minor rover
i appear to have found it
bronze viper
I think they wanted to avoid verification flood, but if you look at our 40+ community made board, the burden was still not that great lol. Well, it was for @autumn sable towards the end of Blood Price, for whatever reason everyone was pushing crazy heat like every day.
Well, @proud jay was pretty much 50% of everyone, but his skill encompasses the range of multiple people, it still counts.
static plover
50+ heat is gonna remain mostly untouched as a speedrun category
With 40+ heat there'll be a decent amount of competition there
minor rover
Its really strange that this game doesnt have a larger speedrunning and "competitive" scene
bronze viper
And if it gets to be too much you can always pare the requirements up by 1 heat at a time. That's more or less what happened with this discord's list. People stopped submitting 40s
minor rover
ig as everyone explained 40+ is bigger
proud jay
i agree that 50 heat doesn't make a whole lot of sense
minor rover
this speedrunning guide is interesting, people run Gods legacy?
proud jay
i run it pretty much all the time
bronze viper
Sure. I usually leave it on by default. I think its power level is slightly below Pride, but if you're hunting a build defining duo or Splitting Bolt or something it obviously is good
minor rover
interesting thanks
bronze viper
I say "slightly below" because a lot of Hermes' boons get kind of insane at Epic.
And not that much stuff affects them
minor rover
Poseidon sword is best? wow speed running and high heat really is a whole new world
chaos isnt viable? what is this
bronze viper
Chaos was slow in Blood Price and it's insanely slow in 1.0
minor rover
what changed just spread and bounces
bronze viper
At highest heats, Chaos' issue was always finding the damage to actually beat the old TD2 timer.
Spread, ricochet, and range
minor rover
interesting i was under the impression its really good, at 50+ heat i suppose you run CP?
bronze viper
CP was the very last thing you wanted to add, but obviously eventually you'd have to, yes
Poseidon being best is news to me though. I thought it was still Nemesis gang over there. I don't keep up at all though.
minor rover
hmmm feels bad, thanks for the info.
like i genuinely thought chaos shield was a goto lol with zeus or ares
didnt someone do a 50 heat run with hades spear?
mossy zinc
At 50+, you just do whatever you think is right. There isn't anybody really to answer questions tbh.
If you're using the same aspect as somebody who's already done 50+, I guess you could just copy their build.
Though with Beowulf and Chaos Aspect, that doesn't work anymore.
minor rover
how was beowulf changed?
mossy zinc
And with AP2, you'll never get that specific build anyway. Just maybe take a similar seed.
random bough
No more charged flight builds huh?
mossy zinc
Charged Flight was nerfed from +400% to +200%.
random bough
Nerf didn't seem too bad
mossy zinc
It's huge.
mossy zinc
I still think it's top tier, but it's a huge nerf.
mossy zinc
50+ is RI3 territory, anyway.
bronze viper
It was 6x before, so +500 -> +200
random bough
It was +400% iirc
mossy zinc
Yeah, it was +400%.
bronze viper
Hmm, okay.
So yeah, no harm done, only a 50% nerf lol
Eh, less than 50%, it's multiplicative, so 40%
mossy zinc
I was about to say lol.
It's still very strong.
But Charged Flight is about the same level as Charged Skewer now.
bronze viper
Yeah it's functionally similar at least. Chaos is a new animal though. A much weaker animal
mossy zinc
Need to rely a lot more on Dragon Rush now.
minor rover
how exactly does the 4 god per run rule work?
when a new run is started are there 4 predetermined gods that youll encounter?
random bough
it seems near impossible to use the punishing sweep in hades fight
I feel like Achilles might be better even for a serrated point build? Unless the dash strikes don't get the bonus
how exactly does the 4 god per run rule work?
Never heard of this rule
You can force gods to appear with keepsakes so it doesn't make sense to me
hollow lynx
you have four "slots" for gods, at the beginning of the run these aren't locked in yet, so the game gives you random gods
as you pick up gods, they get locked in, and after four these will be the only four gods that spawn naturally for the rest of the run
how this interacts with forced boons i have no idea
bronze viper
I've had weird things happen where I will see 4 gods in Tartarus, pick a 5th god keepsake, but also see more of them in the run.
It's also possible that I miscounted/misremembered, but I see that happen fairly frequently
rocky mauve
btw hermes does not count for the limit, he is completely independent
as well as chaos ofc
minor rover
thanks a bunch for the info, im wondering how forcing gods works with it though so if i start the run with zeus keepsake will one of my slots be occupied by zeus?
minor rover
ok cool so a gods keep sake (if taken before the 4 slots are occupied) kinda guarntees theyll show up again
random bough
Does the game try to force you to occupy the slots
Sometimes I see a lot of just one God but mostly it keeps varying
trim nebula
Beowulf good?
honest kernel
beo is nice yea
wanton plover
any tips for em4? i do totally fine until it turns dark
bronze viper
I mean, if you can make it to the last phase then you already have the skillset to finish, it's just a matter of practice I guess.
keen kettle
If you have the time or no tight deadline, playing cautiously and try not to get surprised by his spear throws really
He doesnt have anymore invul phases so bursting down also works
So uh, thoughts on Curse of Longing in heat 20+?
bronze viper
It hasn't been explored extensively. Mostly because of the opportunity cost of Merciful End
The higher heat you go, the more useful Athena is, and so it's a natural pairing
honest kernel
20+ you can still run everything imo
keen kettle
Thanks Ledger, its totally didnt have this conversation before lmao @bronze viper
Ok what about 30+ then
Like i know ME is the go to, just wanna theorycraft a bit
bronze viper
You're welcome to it. Like I said, iit's not extensively explored since it was a known quantity that Merciful End is the best option a lot of aspects have. It's way harder to get now so I could see Curse of Longing be more appealing
honest kernel
curse of longing felt nice when I had it but I usually dont build around duos
its usually just "you gave me this thing..? cool nice"
bronze viper
I usually leave myself open to them if they arrive, but yeah, same
It's part of why ME is uniquely good on Malphon, since the base damage is so bad that Curse of Agony is already optimal
By itself
honest kernel
longing is more open to other weapons I think
since ME requires you to proc it all the time
its probably nice on bow...
keen kettle
Interesting thanks for insight
bronze viper
Yeah, Curse of Longing with Aphro attack + Doom special and Dire Misfortune would be a nifty experiment on Chiron
I would be... surprised if it beat Low Tolerance or Curse of Nausea, but yeah
Worth a shot
wraith imp
So uh, thoughts on Curse of Longing in heat 20+?
@keen kettle
I don't like it.
Did a 17 heat run last night with curse of longing and damage was disappointing.
But let me put into context: when i first started playing hades, i would've been thrilled with it.
Now that I have 600 runs in the game and know there are far far far superior duo boons (like merciful end or sea storm), curse of longing annoys me.
keen kettle
Ok, thanks for insight
wraith imp
Beowulf good?
@trim nebula
it used to be unreal before charged flight got nerfed from 400 to 200%. but now you can kind of replicate old charged flight with epic or upgraded battle rage (200+%).
charged flight + dread flight on beowulf was incredible.
with aphro on special and poseidon on dash (to keep enemies from getting close to me) plus their duo boon (sweet nectar), i could get aprho to around or over 300+% damage.
So you could do around 1250 points of damage to 6 enemies. So good.
Someone snitched and AAAMMMMIIIIIRRRRRR nerfed it. (I blame all nerfs on Amir b/c of a running joke that started on a haelian stream.)
mossy zinc
I never liked Dread Flight on Beowulf at all. I still don't.
wraith imp
Really? Why?
Beowulf special is quick. It's the fastest of the all the chaos specials.
And bewoulf plus dread flight just applied the damage quickly from 2 to 6.
mossy zinc
Not getting your shield back asap is a real issue.
The bounce never worked that well, either. It often just went nowhere hitting nothing.
It's something that sounded good but never was that good in practice.
wraith imp
Hmmm...interesting. I had the opposite reaction on both points. I was surprised by how quickly the beowulf special returned and i was able to figure out angles that allowed me to hit enemies hiding behind walls/pillars. (I learned that from watching a wriste bow run. he would intentionally fire at a pillar and the arrow would bounce and hit a greatshield in the back.)
That said, I never used beowulf for anything above a 32 heat run so it's entirely possible you encountered problems that I didn't face if you tried out bewoulf on super high heat.
mossy zinc
but now you can kind of replicate old charged flight with epic or upgraded battle rage (200+%).
Not really because you could have Battle Rage on it before.
wraith imp
RIght. I'm talking getting close to old charged flight
But yeah, previous charged flight plus battle rage plus artemis used to do absurd hits
I saw as high as 8K
But for most enemies that was overkill
So i used to take aphro for her status curse and the high floor plus duo boon with poseidon.
trim sigil
That's an overkill for hades man himself so lol
wraith imp
No such thing as overkill
@bronze viper
My bad. Won't happen again.
bronze viper
8k crit on Numbskull. know your place, trash
trim sigil
It all went into savior blue heart
bronze viper
Good, they know what's coming then
mossy zinc
If you want to put them in their place, you gotta beat them on 50+.
Big damage numbers don't count for anything. 
wraith imp
8k crit on Numbskull. know your place, trash
@bronze viper
the many times i wished i could nuke alecto for calling zag trash...grrrr...but nemesis works just fine for humiliating her...
mossy zinc
Alecto is nice.
bronze viper
Pretty sure she is just throwing out Underworld racial slurs and no one is saying anything.
wraith imp
https://tenor.com/view/what-say-what-wait-what-excuse-me-what-confused-gif-5700585
Alecto is nice.
@mossy zinc
wraith imp
she's pretty "nice" at getting her ass beat...
mossy zinc
What I mean to say is, I can agree with the things she tells you. 
As the nice person she is.
wraith imp
Yes, i understood what you were implying Ms. Regina George. Hence, the 2nd gif above.
uncut wigeon
Alecto is just flirting. If it wasnt for Meg, she'd get a bottle of nectar or two.
bronze viper
She only accepts onions and Titan Blood
bronze viper
If you die with a Satyr sack you can gift it to Alecto in the next run.
wraith imp
If you die with a Satyr sack you can gift it to Alecto in the next run.
@bronze viper
WUT
O RLY?
carmine apex
This isn't high heat, but if you use jury summons do you get more gold because there are more enemies? Or does it scale the gold down so you get the same amount?
wraith imp
This isn't high heat, but if you use jury summons do you get more gold because there are more enemies? Or does it scale the gold down so you get the same amount?
@carmine apex
This is an interesting question. I've never considered this.
I find that I tend to get gold when I smash enemies against walls (usually with shield)- but perhaps that's my selective attention & memory talking. So if this is true, then I would think I would get more gold as I smash more enemies against walls.
I'll have to test this out. I will say that I do tend to have waaay more gold when i enter styx on js3 than on js0 or js1 but that can be attributed to many reasons.
bronze viper
I've wondered this too
trim sigil
Technically you can test the same seed for that
wraith imp
indeed. the new mod that was introduced is super helpful for that.
it can configure a lot of things to keep things reasonably standardized.
minor rover
new mod?
proud jay
which new mod? also you can read about gold drops in lua files
{
Chance = 0.7,
MinParcels = 1,
MaxParcels = 1,
MinValue = 1,
MaxValue = 1,
ValuePerDifficulty = 0.33,
ValuePerDifficultyMaxValueVariance = 1.3,
},```
mossy zinc
They don't really want us to post datamined stuff like that here.
minor rover
is that really considered datamined? i mean the files are right there you can literally open em w notepad
proud jay
modding is supported and i think it was even discussed in one of the noclip documentaries
mossy zinc
proud jay
i don't consider reading lua files datamining but idk
bronze viper
Hacking the mainframe
trim sigil
I suppose accessing source files is considered datamining, which is mildly loud way to speak about but true
minor rover
the lua files dont reveal anything do they? its the same as discussing precise frame data isnt it?
well similar not the same
gloomy musk
if you want to discuss datamining we have a channel on the modding discord
random bough
died to savior speeder longspears 
had zeus attack demeter special and aphro call with smoldering air, was going well but even going near them without getting hurt seems impossible
how do you even take on savior groups in FO2
skelly barely helped
olive root
Hey guys. I had been playing this game but only recently I started to play on high heat. I can handle myself with other weapons, but can someone recommend me some strats with bow? Which aspects do you recommend? Is there a boon recommendation you would like to tell me about?
honest kernel
rama is very good
trim sigil
Dash strike is usually your bread and butter due to sped up animation
Also easier to consistently pull off power shots
If you don't find rama appealing, zagreus bow is a good safe bet due to crit chance
olive root
I used to pick Aspect of Hera and try to get boons from artemis to get that phat cast damage. But I think it's a bit irrelevant in high heat
honest kernel
I did 32 with hera but that was before the buff
the bow is prob a bit better now?
I always go for dio cast with it
dio cast+the duo casts are the biggest strength of that bow imo
you can get fat single target dmg with hestia easier
poseidon cast is prob also good but i havent tried it
you want more splash damage on those explosions
olive root
I don't think it would work with bow that much, but I love poseidon x zeus combo on gauntlets
honest kernel
why gauntlets tbh
olive root
With aspect of talos you can pull people. It is fun to knock people with poseidon boon and pull them over with your special
honest kernel
I see
cast is kinda a different story tho it'd be fine
I always hated poseidon on gauntlets because well, you have to be close
split prism
Is it just me or is the gauntlet weapon absolutely broken? You take hermes dodge keepsake, build it up. Take the dodge chance hermes boon and the boon that lets you regain some health after dashing. Then SPAM atk and dash and nothing can ever damage you
you should try it it's hilarious
but maybe the developers should know that this is kind of unbeatable
i am on a 5 win streak with it
I also saw that the hermes boon is already nerfed compared to early access
But maybe not enough
If you play well you can still get to ~30% dodge chance +10% with boon and +15% with gauntlet passive
half of the attacks wont even hit
lost otter
@honest kernel its not best way for unbeatable) you can get 30% dodje+ from hermes boon after Aid(call) and can haveAid (call) every 5 seconds. + ruthless Reflex give 50% chance. and its work on any weapon.
limpid nymph
this is getting off topic from "high heat strategies", but I'm also not exactly sure how dodge is calculated in this game. I've had in the 90's of dodge (if it's additive) but for some reason dad hit the majority of the time. It's also not broken at all; you have to be getting specific boons and gods and be clearing things fast, all of which is harder than it sounds on high heat so idrk what to tell you
besides, without knowing a way to get 100% dodge chance, it's just some extra health. I do not think it will typically be worth it compared to some of your other options that just contribute more throughout an entire run
I don't think it's bad, but by going plume you give up on acorn and money and boons
daring hedge
yeah, fists are far from broken, especially at high heat. feels like it doesn't make much sense here on this channel
limpid nymph
yeah this is more of a #h1-builds-and-combat or #h1-discussion thing rather than for here
(imo, unless people think this is helpful)
wanton plover
https://youtu.be/N9yOjuPDhs4 EM4 spoiler but skip to 32:57 he shows a 5head trick for redacted fight kekw
hollow lynx
dodge is multiplicative btw
cursive oasis
brightness boosting v. darkness effects, a classic
wraith imp
@bronze viper
I'm doing a explosive attack run on rama and I'm stunned at how slow this is. I'm having difficulty seeing myself ever completing successful heat runs with this hammer at forced overtime 2 and jury summons 3 with benefits package 2.
Do you have a link to your run so that I can see how you went about using it?
tired meteor
For Rama i think the best option is Relentless Volley with Ares on Special
daring hedge
no
wraith imp
For Rama i think the best option is Relentless Volley with Ares on Special
@tired meteor
I think someone said that dio on rama special with special upgrade is incredible. i'll have to try that...
tired meteor
Of course, Dio sounds really good
I just love that Ares special with more damage each consecutive hit and slower building with more damage on Rama
combined with Aphrodite duo just destroyes the opposition
wraith imp
curse of longing?
barren garnet
to reach high heat levels do you have to do it one at a time
I got skelly's first "reward"
limpid nymph
no I did 32 without actually doing 1...2....3....4....5.... etc
you can just skip to 32
and it will count
as your highest, and for skelly
barren garnet
oh ok good because I didn't want to go through one by one
limpid nymph
but you will continue to earn recourses going up from 1
keen kettle
Remind me, for ME builds on shields, is ares on attack or the special
rocky lark
for zeus aspect take doom special athena attack
For others probably doom attack, athena dash and special? like you do on gilgamesh
Also where would one ask about speedrunning or trying for times? this channel?
limpid nymph
there's a discord channel for speedrunning, can dm you the link
limpid nymph
oh shoot my b I walked away yeah I gotchu
wraith imp
does explosive shot and point blank stack on bow?
daring hedge
yeah, at that point just go twin+point-blank or twin+perfect shot
keen kettle
bruh. twin flurry
daring hedge
much more flexible and still incredibly strong
keen kettle
twin flurry is the strongest
autumn sable
triple + explosive if probably the combo you want if you wanna run explosive
daring hedge
@keen kettle you... can't get flurry on rama
limpid nymph
yes, but rama is right there
keen kettle
nothing's forcing you to only play rama
limpid nymph
no..... but you could lol
(I don't only use rama, I just think it's funny to say "just use rama lul" for every bow build)
wraith imp
i just lost to hades on 7 heat. yuck.
freaking geometry
how the hell are you supposed to escape his wide ass spin attack while trying to do rama's ridiculously slow ass attacks/dash-attacks?
daring hedge
Don't commit until he's already spun, really
keen kettle
Just dont commit to the attack
wraith imp
tight deadline?
keen kettle
Your attacks deal insanely high damage anyway
daring hedge
I don't see why TD would be a limiting factor, considering how much damage Rama does
No attack boon at all?
wraith imp
i was doing 250 points of damage
keen kettle
how
wraith imp
not like i could get a full charge of
limpid nymph
yeah um
keen kettle
No Aphro/Artemis on Attack?
limpid nymph
ok then
daring hedge
Well, there's a big part of your problem
keen kettle
no keepsake?
limpid nymph
I don't believe it
keen kettle
or rerolls?
wraith imp
went with persephone
wraith imp
i had 11 (11!!!!) rerolls
daring hedge
Lol
wraith imp
and game wouldn't give me attack
wanton plover
pomblossom kinda overrated tbh
limpid nymph
wow
keen kettle
reroll room or reroll boon list
rocky lark
At that point probably take any attack boon or shakle
limpid nymph
that's impressive
keen kettle
cause if u have boon reroll its incredibly unlikely you dont get a single attack boon
wraith imp
it gave me sorry ass dio's attack for rama and a common one at that
keen kettle
thats the issue
rocky lark
If you have no boons pomblossom kinda 
keen kettle
dio attack on rama
keen kettle
hot take
wraith imp
i had athena on special
rocky lark
you can get super cucked though sometimes I guess
wraith imp
i had poseidon dash (which was super sweet because of razor shoals)
but help me through the math...
even if i had a common attack leveled up by 2? how much should i have been doing with explosive and point blank stacking?
say demeter's common attack leveled up by 2 (about 75% right?)
50 -> 65 -> 75
the problem with rama is the slow charge
explosive attack makes even the dash attack super slow
keen kettle
just dont do full charge
keen kettle
let go when you need to
wraith imp
i tried
i must not be used to how slow explosive attack makes the attack/dash-attack.
limpid nymph
pretty easily can get at least 400 per hit with just one hammer, an ok attack boon, and not even full charge
wraith imp
problem is hades has like 15,000 units of health per phase
i was about 3-4 attacks away from winning
but i walked in with 300+ health, 3 death defiances, AND stubborn roots...and LOST
lol
limpid nymph
if you're not running FO he's not really that hard regardless
wraith imp
oh...i had calisthenics fo1 and cp2 on this run
and maybe one other heat.
can't remember
limpid nymph
regardless
wraith imp
just proves how terrible i'm at bow
easily my worst weapon
32+ heat clear on everything else. stuck on 16 heat on bow
lol
limpid nymph
with any luck/investment, you could get damage as high as 1k+ per hit
if you get good hammers
keen kettle
bow's my best weapon so hard to empathize
wraith imp
dammit maneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
keen kettle
i mean i'm garbage with shield
wanton plover
the power shot sound is so satisfying
wraith imp
btw, it's more than a little annoying that rama's attack doesn't pierce shields.
wraith imp
my bad...i just went into archives room. i was doing 13 heat, not 7.
i had td2 and some hard labor (hl2) in addition to fo1 and cp2
the power shot sound is so satisfying
@wanton plover
True.
i wish zeus shield sounded like that but zeus shield's special has an obnoxious metallic banging sound.
with any luck/investment, you could get damage as high as 1k+ per hit
@limpid nymph
it seems i had the best hammers for that...but couldn't get a darn attack worth a damn.
limpid nymph
na you probably want twin
wraith imp
but thinking it through...it seems zeus special builds and zeus/poseidon special-dash builds would rock on rama.
wraith imp
oh yeah
wanton plover
zeus is a trap
limpid nymph
ye
hollow lynx
(zeus special still rocks on rama btw)
limpid nymph
cause it doesn't activate every hit
wraith imp
i missed out when rama was a WMD with zeus special
wraith imp
but i think upgraded double strike and high voltage might still do some work
hollow lynx
rama special is fast but not as fast as chiron, you still get plenty of bolting in
wraith imp
rama special is fast but not as fast as chiron, you still get plenty of bolting in
@hollow lynx
true, chiron might be better for zeus special
limpid nymph
I would just use chiron at that point ye
free extra 4 hits
so free relentless volley, but you can still get it
idk
it requires setup ig
wraith imp
btw, do these ranks ever end?
I'm up to delta agent (whatever that means). i'm just wondering when the title upgrades stop.
rocky lark
I thought zeus only has internal CD on special so it still does full procs on luci?
hollow lynx
true, chiron might be better for zeus special
what i meant was, because chiron strikes too fast on special, thunder flourish is bad on it
limpid nymph
I thought it doesn't full proc pretty sure but now I'm doubting myself
keen kettle
it doesnt
hollow lynx
rama is fast to have good dps, but slow enough to not be too hindered by the internal cooldown
rocky lark
Oh that's just what I saw someone say
limpid nymph
I didn't know that onyx that's interesting
pretty sure I remember they nerfed the special in some way though
I could also just be losing my memory
wraith imp
what i meant was, because chiron strikes too fast on special, thunder flourish is bad on it
@hollow lynx
oh.
bronze viper
@bronze viper
I'm doing a explosive attack run on rama and I'm stunned at how slow this is. I'm having difficulty seeing myself ever completing successful heat runs with this hammer at forced overtime 2 and jury summons 3 with benefits package 2.
@wraith imp Explosive definitely isn't as strong as Twin or Triple in 1.0. I don't have any videos atm of me starting a run with Explosive though I did play around with that idea a lot in Blood Price.
keen kettle
@bronze viper I know uve said is comparable but do you personally prefer to run art or aphro on rama attack?
bronze viper
I don't typically. I haven't done optimization for 1.0 yet, I'd ask Tailesque, but I usually started with Dio or Zeus special and just worked with whatever attacks I got.
keen kettle
O.O
bronze viper
Blood Price was very different. Rama's attack was comparatively garbage. Very sure the ideal start is Twin Shot now
And one of Artemis or Aphro. Artemis gives you outs for Heart Rend or Splitting Headache off the special and Aphro gives you outs for Smoldering Air with Thunder Flourish or Zeus' Aid.
keen kettle
damn what a balance game this is ahahah
wanton plover
on fo2 the huge chariots are so hard to avoid
lavish kernel
Okay so at high heats do you kind of map out your end build before the run? Like the duo(s) you’ll be chasing and then choose aspect/talents to work with and trinkets to force the build?
keen kettle
assuming that the game is nice to you, yes
RI1 makes it harder to chase for duo/legendary boons, since u dont have ur mirror upgrades that makes them appear more often
limpid nymph
boons and aspect are interchangeable in order, but that sounds about right
keen kettle
like boons not really the issue, main issue is hammer upgrades cause no way to control hammer upgrades at all
lavish kernel
Neat. Also what is considered high heat.
keen kettle
20+, 32+, 40+ depending on who you ask
lavish kernel
Yeah that’s hot
dull scroll
Hammer spawn seems pretty consistent, though. If I always take hammer, I get one in Tartarus, and one in Elysium - and the Elysium one is likely to be the very first room there
stark cape
right, but you can't reroll and there's lots of choices for certain aspects so it's hard if only 1 or 2 are viable
dull scroll
Yeah, fair enough. Just keep dying till you get the hammer start and hope it gives you what you need
I'm done doing runs for today, but I have an idea for what I'm gonna do tomorrow
And that is to cheat out a 32 heat run by not taking EM4
Cause I've had like 6 runs that go all the way up to third phase, but then it's just too much
wraith imp
i'm playing with chaos shield on 10 heat. game refuses to give me anything that isn't dash. it just took me 9 minutes and 1.2 seconds to clear tartarus.
the chaos shield is now complete garbage - G-A-R-B-A-G-E without a boon or explosive return. SGG tinkered too much and ruined it.
minor rover
i cleared 32 heat w it
wraith imp
new one?
minor rover
yeah yesterday lol
wraith imp
i'll be lucky to clear 20 heat with the new one
i'm depressed about how weak it is compared to what it once was
i'll never shake the feeling of how awesome it was
what was you build?
zeus is now weak on it
minor rover
its still viable they only reaaally changed the ricochet and spread, i think range too but its not too detrimental
i cleared 32 heat w zeus lol XD
minor rover
32 is still relatively low but yeah chaos is still good
wraith imp
also, it seems zeus now more damage on the shield return than on the launch
minor rover
i kinda prefer it, i only played for like 5 days before 1.0 and didnt even have a maxed chaos shield
i think lightning can again on return yeah
wraith imp
you can watch runs on youtube of what pre-1.0 chaos shield was.
there's reason it was the weapon of choice on high heat runs of 50+
minor rover
Oh i've seen it does seem pretty busted but they didnt nerf damage so ig you just have to position better now
wraith imp
it's more than just positioning now imo...zeus chain lightning doesn't bounce like it used to
before it could wipe out enemies off-screen
now? no chance
minor rover
chain lightning? like the legendary or attack boon?
wraith imp
no...zeus is unique in that his attack jumps from enemy to enemy
autumn sable
that's not how Zeus special works, though
minor rover
yeah the special just calls a strike doesnt it
wraith imp
didn't?
autumn sable
never did, special is a thunderbolt
wraith imp
like look at lucifer
autumn sable
attack is chain lightning
wraith imp
hmmm...
perhaps i'm conflating.
so why does the zeus special feel so weak now on chaos shield?
static plover
zeus special has a 0.2 second internal cooldown
minor rover
it kinda doesnt, not in my opinion anyway but everyone seems to dislike zeus special and i tend to make excuses for it lol, i think ares special is better for chaos shield
static plover
zeus special is good on some things, not so much on others
ie. Chiron bow is something it's not the best on
minor rover
What do u like to run zeus special on agg?
static plover
out of what I play most atm, zag bow
minor rover
sounds good cuz more arrows than chiron and the spread thanks, i have a question tho is the 0.2 timer per enemy?
static plover
I'm not entirely sure on how the 0.2 second internal cooldown works
minor rover
ah no worries