I find it easier to go for theseus on EM3 as he doesn't have a shield until phase2. This is probably the only fight which get easier on EM imo
#h1-high-heat-strategies
scarlet yoke
bronze viper
Is the em3 strat the same as for the normal fight?(focus mino first?)
@alpine dirge The most common strat for Heroes is actually to focus both, and target switch on phase transitions. This is for time concerns, not safety, though unless you've had a slow TD2 or are on TD3 this shouldn't be a huge consideration.
Their new buddy combo moves helps with this immensely actually, and at least for me has made non-EM Heroes miles easier
balmy pewter
Is there any community list of which Heats to choose as you increase the bounty? I started by choosing the Traps one for bounty 1 but feels a bit overwhelming with all the options. (I kinda wish it started of like Slay the Spire with specific heats and then maybe later you could customize)
bronze viper
It's highly personal choice
tardy path
RI 1, EM 2, TD 1 are usually free heat for me
Those are acronyms for the heat options
bronze viper
There are heuristics, like don't pick RI, AP, avoid HL, etc. But some people despise FO2, someone people leave it on forever, same as EM3, BP2, UC, CF2, etc. etc. etc.
Part of the game is figuring out what works best for you
It kind of necessarily won't be what works for everyone else, which is cool
balmy pewter
Thanks, I also understand it goes up to 120 ? what is the standard bounty level people play after plenty of experience?
I know like in Slay the Spire peolpe usually play A15 or A20
bronze viper
Bounties go to 20 or 25 in Hell Mode. We refer to the total as Heat though
So like 20 or 25 Heat.
But the cutoff point for "high heat" is also really subjective. For a lot of people, it's in the 20's area, but for the regulars of this channel we're usually optimizing for 40+
Everyone's welcome though. At the end of the day, this channel is for discussing strats around interactions of pacts with each other
balmy pewter
and for hell mode has to be on a new file right?
bronze viper
Yeah
balmy pewter
I guess the conditions in hell mode could be a good starting point for which ones to select in normal mode
Thanks
bronze viper
NO NO NO definitely not haha
The 4 (+1) pacts you have locked in Hell Mode suck, period. Well, minus LC1, but that's because the meta for high heat at the moment is LC4 with Stubborn Defiance.
You absolutely never want to take JS or CP until necessary, as they have multiplicative effects on the length of your run, which matters not just because of Tight Deadline, but because it increases the amount of time in which you have to make mistakes.
And the amount of armor you need to go through to stun lock elite enemies
bronze viper
And HL is risky in general because it's extra damage taken. You typically have to take Hard Labor at higher heats because it's less dangerous than the extra health/extra mobs mods, but yeah it's not great.
uncut wigeon
4th fist aspect might be BAE.
Cant tell but it got me excited to try it at 40 heat.
uncut wigeon
Prevailing consensus had fun nerfed
bronze viper
Lmao
uncut wigeon
The prevailing consensus can choke on it until Chaos Shield is back to its goofy self.
tardy path
._.
bronze viper
At least acknowledge that your experience is subjective and Chaos and Beowulf were actually making the game kinda worse for some people
So it's not a total loss.
I agree they were overnerfed
uncut wigeon
No, what? A lot of nerfs happened over eseentially a handful of people making themselves sad with them.
Hades sold 1 million copies
How many of them got depression ovet chaos shield so much so that it needed nerfing?
tardy path
A fair amount?
uncut wigeon
Doubt it.
tardy path
It doesn't seem terrible in its current state
bronze viper
It's not about depression, it's about how "good" other options feel in comparison to existing ones
uncut wigeon
Look, I did a talos run today
bronze viper
It was really hard to go back to other aspects when I was brand new to the game and rekt through everything with Chaos
uncut wigeon
No amount of nerfing Chaos Shield made Talos fun.
Bro I love me some Demeter and Gilga got me loving the Unga and raw raw
Nemesis sword is a top tier aspect. Still not that enjoyable for me.
I wish I cojld break down my runs by weapons just to see how much chaos shield ultimately ruined my life.
bronze viper
Beowulf felt like awkward poop, but Charged Flight was so hilariously busted that it made me feel like a stubborn hipster for enjoying the Bow and Hestia Rail playstyles more.
uncut wigeon
Because Chaos Shield clears may be highest in shield category
But so is Demeter eith fist snd Chiron in bow.
rotund coyote
hmmm
bronze viper
Wait what?
rotund coyote
whats the best || companion || to have, now that || all are usable in Redacted's fight ||
bronze viper
Zag fist and Rama/Zag bow are the highest in their categories
static plover
@rotund coyote spoiler tags please
rotund coyote
apologies
static plover
as much as this is the high heat channel, same rules apply as #h1-story-discussion
bronze viper
@static plover For future reference, I'm confused, this channel has been hugely devoid of need for spoiler tags because we're discussing mega late post-game
uncut wigeon
@bronze viper my bad, ate a qualifying statement. I meant to say in my personal clears.
Unless SGG has mountains of datas on people's weapon usage during and clear % with them.
That'd sort of be the best way to tell how much of an issue something being "too good" is.
static plover
you're right, I'm incredibly sleepy Ledger so ignore me
bronze viper
No worries, just wanted to make sure we knew the rules ๐
static plover
I derped it's all good
bronze viper
I thought we had just been like flagrantly breaking them for months and months
static plover
in regards to the chaos discussion, if an aspect makes every other aspect on that weapon feel bad to play, or effectively make any other choices irrelevant then something about that aspect should change
uncut wigeon
If other aspects felt bad to play, it is likely they needed buffs.
Me not liling rail doesnt mean you nerf fists to compensate.
bronze viper
I don't think every aspect deserves to have 6x multipliers or something akin to 360 degree full screen coverage with an invincible defensive option built it.
scarlet yoke
I agree with Chaos being to good, all you needed was charge and special, didn't even have to try to aim in many cases, enemies just died off screen all the time.
static plover
it was incredibly safe and it became a crutch for people
similarly with Merciful End on fists pre 1.0
bronze viper
While I climbed heats with Chaos, it also made me feel really bad at the game when I stopped using it for other aspects at comparable heat.
scarlet yoke
I remember having the same experience ๐
bronze viper
I remember hitting Chaos with 20 so easily I got a big head, switched to bow and thought pretty much in 5 minutes: "Hmm, it's possible that I am a dumpster fire."
static plover
so Toki, even though you don't like the changes to Chaos I think the change is overall good for the game as a whole
bronze viper
I do think that while the 360 coverage, off-screening, and free ricochet AoE was excessive, they probably should not have gutted all 3
Though at least now you can reliably shotgun with the weapon, so % damage boons aren't the actual worst anymore
static plover
that's what internal and community beta testing is for ^_^
bronze viper
Though I do recall my very first 32 being with Deadly Flourish on Chaos, and me thinking "this is so busted"
(Probably had nothing to do with the 200 Support Fire arrows that would be on the screen at any given time)
uncut wigeon
Chaos could've been adjusted from the full starfish to a semi circle
maybe even 120 degree angle
current one is meh
hollow lynx
chaos rn is this odd middle ground between spread and shotgun that doesn't really accomplish either
uncut wigeon
yeah, its just...meh
and doesn't have the fun aspect of just watching the screen go crazy
All this talk about Chaos being to good, now I basically don't really wanna touch shield because the one cool aspect got obliterated.
not hte one cool aspect, but one htat had some really unique stuff going for it.
royal wagon
I still need to max gilgamesh so I can use it. How do we feel about it in higher heats?
bronze viper
It's... something. I would not prioritize Blood into Gilgamesh honestly
uncut wigeon
400 damage
RAWR
Sometimes 560 if I can figure out wtf is going on with the math of it in this run
๐
bronze viper
The maimsplosion comes at such a high risk
uncut wigeon
big chunks of chunky damage though
mossy zinc
I've only done a couple runs with it. Can't really say I've tried everything yet. Dash-Upper recovery feels like way too much.
uncut wigeon
its kinda neat to see it doom. regular attack feels like its where its at
boosted enough a few regular attacks can do a lot of damage.
bronze viper
Luckily I had SD, because I autopilot maimed a Slugger Lout in one of the first rooms. Health bar, where did you go?
royal wagon
I feel like the main thing going for it would be at high RI with no dash, you'd still have 3 dashes
And then ignore maim as a mechanic lol
bronze viper
Ruthless Reflex I haven't tried yet, but it sounds legit
mossy zinc
Legend speaks of a poor guy who did Fists 4 Dash-Upper within a Puller aura. He's still in recovery frames.
mossy zinc
You'd think taking +50% from maimed enemies was enough, but for some reason it also takes a year to recover.
royal wagon
50% feels like a really hefty downside
royal wagon
yup and they do 150 lol
uncut wigeon
lmao
royal wagon
sure footing best boon in game change my mind
mossy zinc
I dunno. 1 Heat seems alright with me.
uncut wigeon
I remember running with HS and getting hit by an arrow on accident
died
wtf game? why you so crule?
๐
mossy zinc
Sure Footing can really hurt your runs.
royal wagon
I was joking but...because it enables athena when you dont want it?
mossy zinc
Because it takes too long to revive for SD with Sure Footing.
mossy zinc
With TD3 now that hurts even more than it did with old TD2.
uncut wigeon
you kill yourself at the end of rooms to heal?
mossy zinc
Right.
uncut wigeon
man, Gilgamesh has me super excited for high heat now
gonna finish up to 20, jump to 32 and see if I can do 40 me thinks
๐ค
but then I'll have to committ sudoku and study paths and stuff like a high heat nerd
๐ฎ
mossy zinc
We don't route.
royal wagon
I mean, Kane does
mossy zinc
Yeah, he's the only one.
uncut wigeon
I remember reading some of the higher heat runs were routed
royal wagon
nah there's literally just 1
uncut wigeon
If you save a seed, aren't you also invariably routing if you do multiple attempts with it?
not fully, but at least part of tartarus.
royal wagon
there are so many things that affect the route logic that the answer is 'not really'
seeds don't fully define the route
mossy zinc
Yeah, not really.
royal wagon
the logic SGG uses for seeds is active/branches during a run
mossy zinc
Quite a lot of them cleared the seed on the first or second try, too.
royal wagon
like breaking a pot in a room can potentially change what room is offered next, it factors in a ton of stuff
somber rose
what's a recommended PoP setup for 32 heat runs?
uncut wigeon
Novril?
Shouldn't you be doing chemical lovers vids?
@somber rose depends on which weapon you're attempting it with.
somber rose
all of them
royal wagon
example: multihit weapons are fine with damage control 1 and potentially 2 but Hestia rail would not be fine with that
it does make a difference
do you want to clear 32 with all weps? or just bouncing between weps as you try?
somber rose
yeah i mean other than damage control there shouldn't be much difference between them right?
uncut wigeon
Easy 20 heat is HL 1, LC 1, EM 3, CP 1, BP 2, FO1, and TD1
Think after that you'll have to mess around with the extra 11 heat
somber rose
Shouldn't you be doing chemical lovers vids?
@uncut wigeon I did say I have a hades vid in the works
uncut wigeon
Been a minute since I checked out your channel, you still working with Specs?
somber rose
yes he proofed the script.
I'm thinking about only using EM2 instead of EM3, and putting those points in other places. I remember EM3 starting to cause problems last time I tried.
uncut wigeon
You eventually get used to EM3
royal wagon
I think EM3 is reasonable to 'get used to' ya
uncut wigeon
but EM3 with FO2 is all sorts of wacky
At least NyaanNyaan is a big fan of Theseus Rockets in EM3, FO2
๐
somber rose
Do they get more HP in EM? It felt like the minotaur takes ages to take down
royal wagon
I want to say yes, but not sure % wise how much
uncut wigeon
that's one where I wouldn't know, I seemingly always run with CP1
somber rose
what about TD2 instead of CP1?
royal wagon
TD2 I'd say you should have on always
with the TD changes if you're planning on running high heat, TD2 should be very comfortable
unless you're running JS3+CP or something
uncut wigeon
new TD2 is less punishing
bronze viper
It's a huge red flag that your build doesn't work fundamentally if you aren't hitting TD2
Because at higher heats things will eventually get pretty thicc
somber rose
so it's a necessary dps check anyway huh?
bronze viper
Don't sweat TD3, that is a trash fire at very high heat. Sub 20 my butt
uncut wigeon
they changed the way TD works with 1.0
somber rose
lol i can do td3... on low heat... if I get lucky on styx
royal wagon
I mean I'd say TD2 is barely a DPS check
bronze viper
TD2 is not a DPS check, it's a mechanics check
royal wagon
basically what ledger said, if you aren't making TD2 something is very very wrong with the build
bronze viper
Do you play efficiently, do you pick reasonable boons
uncut wigeon
you could always ignore TD and just ratched up DC and CP
๐
spend an eternity on your run
royal wagon
if you don't want to have fun yes haha
uncut wigeon
I was running Jury Summons for a long time until I started reading this channel
then I felt bad and scrubby
๐ข
uncut wigeon
it might end up the way to do Gilgamesh 40
just sit here with a whole lot of coffee and put away 3 hours to do one run.
uncut wigeon
UC1 one isn't too bad.
bronze viper
Time to slowly safely tickle things to death
uncut wigeon
think when I did 32 I put HL at 3, LC at 2, CF at 2 and UC 1
bronze viper
Lol, I wonder how much heat a theoretical UC2 would be worth
uncut wigeon
you mean how much blood pressure
honest charm
serrated point GY and special GY are honestly not only faster but safer than spin GY in my experience
uncut wigeon
AP2 stressed me out just watching Nyaan do it.
bronze viper
It stresses everyone out who isn't Nyaa
honest charm
not being able to build your uhhh... build
isn't really that stressful
if it doesn't work just do another run
uncut wigeon
I gotta eventaully od EM4
well, with Charged Flight AP2 was basically a cheat thanks to her seed
bronze viper
Seeing Demeter is like looking in the face of the Grim Reaper of runs with AP2
uncut wigeon
think she only needed charged flight and Aphors attack to make it work.
royal wagon
lol 'have a rare crop in styx on your attack boon'
'guess I'll throw myself off a cliff'
bronze viper
Or the small panic moment of buying a random boon in the boss shop in Tartarus to cover yourself for UC and seeing Demeter spawn
"Please no not like this"
somber rose
what about forced overtime? I feel like it may cause more problems than its points' worth
bronze viper
It's very manageable, and worth 6 points.
royal wagon
that is one you can get used to, it changes your muscle memory but once you get the hang of it
bronze viper
It takes... a while to learn how to play with it on, but you do eventually get to the point where the game feels uncomfortable without it
somber rose
or maybe it's fine with abyssal blood?
bronze viper
When I started my new save on Switch it felt like I was playing underwater
somber rose
the problem with it is that when you try normal speed you end up dodging too early when hades does his spins
really pissed me off
royal wagon
solution: never play without FO2
bronze viper
I remember getting Divine Dash and seeing Spreaders start their animation. I dashed towards them to deflect the balls, but they didn't make it to me because FO wasn't active, so I got hit by all of them because of Personal Liability lol.
somber rose
what about EM4? worth the points?
uncut wigeon
nope
bronze viper
If you practice the fight? Definitely. It has a constant, predictable effect.
bronze viper
If you don't? Well, you will never finish a run, so... nope
uncut wigeon
Hades tossing the spear is fast enough.
somber rose
phase one is where I take the most damage due to the minibosses with a ton of HP
uncut wigeon
Fo2 gonna look like some DBZ stuff.
bronze viper
Which is funny because I already kept Hades temp saves for just FO2 Hades, and I practiced a couple of times a day to keep myself fresh
But this fight is like... several times harder than that
And I already thought FO2 Dad at high heat was by far the hardest fight
bronze viper
Nowadays? Whatever you're most comfortable with
It's not even Chaos Shield anymore
It's really just whatever works best for you
somber rose
idk I feel comfortable with most stuff as long as I don't have to hit with rail special
bronze viper
Chaos offers advantages of being able to wait for enemies to take an action, block it then attack, that's true, but that playstyle is a LOT less rewarding than it used to be, in terms of time and damage
uncut wigeon
Or fun
somber rose
so what's the go-to with shields now?
hollow lynx
using bow 
somber rose
will going the stubborn defiance+LC4 route make this easier or harder?
bronze viper
That depends on you too lol. Stubborn Defiance lets you make a lot more mistakes per run, but not a ton of mistakes in any single encounter
So if for example you're used to burning multiple DDs to get through EM3 or Dad, then SD may just be a hindrance
somber rose
Hades may be less of a problem if I don't put any points in hard labor and forced overtime
plus not having to spend money on heals mean i can also put points in CF
bronze viper
That's the idea ๐
mossy zinc
think she only needed charged flight and [Lady Aphrodite's] attack to make it work.
@uncut wigeon that's any good build.
mossy zinc
If you need more than 1 hammer and 1 boon to make it work, pick a different aspect.
Or stop playing on 54+.
bronze viper
Or with AP2
mossy zinc
Why would you ever stop playing with AP2 on?
wraith imp
While I climbed heats with Chaos, it also made me feel really bad at the game when I stopped using it for other aspects at comparable heat.
@bronze viper
I remember hitting Chaos with 20 so easily I got a big head, switched to bow and thought pretty much in 5 minutes: "Hmm, it's possible that I am a dumpster fire."
@bronze viper
I had a similar experience. (But I started on sword in update 2.)
The shield does a lot of work for gamers. Bow forces players to be accurate and precise (re: consistent). Also builds spatial awareness to cover since shield can block so much damage and players aren't punished for poor positioning (ex: hades lasers or minotaur's bullrush).
So now I'm forcing myself to play with bow to become better.
bronze viper
Omg I remember getting SO MAD at FO2 bull rush when I switched off Chaos lol
bronze viper
The attack just didn't even blip on my radar with shield
forest nebula
Bow forces players to be accurate and precise
counter argument, Chiron
somber rose
hmm so maybe i'll try a few practice runs with just em3 fo2 before going for 32 heat
scarlet yoke
you don't need FO2 for 32 heat though
but its nice to getting used to
still find FO2 rough
bronze viper
Chiron definitely still requires threat management and targetting
But yeah it's not like the constant repositioning and awareness necessary for the other 3
forest nebula
Bow shots are relatively slow, but they allow you more room to think your next move, unlike every single other weapon which you need to press the attack button repeatedly
or hold it
bronze viper
Bow for me plays pretty surprisingly similar to Fist, where you have to plan your next dashes pretty well to not get wrecked.
But I play a lot of man mode Bow builds and Rama lol.
scarlet yoke
ye, love that you can hold attack on fists, one of the reasons its one of the favorites. makes concentrating on position alot easier as its so important
bronze viper
Holding is nice but it's a bit annoying to need to let go to use iframes when repositioning is insufficient
It's a small gripe
bronze viper
If you are attacking with anything and dash while doing it, you do not have iframes for that dash. So Rail and Fists mostly
I'm not actually 100% but I think if you dash cancel an attack with bow you still have iframes for that. It's what I've observed at least.
wanton plover
whats the threshold for high heat
wraith imp
counter argument, Chiron
@forest nebula
Sure.
Chiron is the noob friendly bow. (So it's perfect for me!)
whats the threshold for high heat
@wanton plover
It's arbitrary.
To be inclusive, this channel says "it's whatever heat # you're struggling with"
But the unofficial number is 32+ (because that's the final skelly achievement statue).
bronze viper
The channel is in practice about discussing how to deal with pact combinations
forest nebula
I mean i guess anything with EM4 should be considered
bronze viper
So whatever heat that is that you start noticing that additional pacts are making your runs hard
Yeah, EM4 by itself is worthy of that lol
As is AP2, RI3+, FO2, BP2
wraith imp
Bow shots are relatively slow, but they allow you more room to think your next move, unlike every single other weapon which you need to press the attack button repeatedly
@forest nebula
Yeah...
It took me a long time to realize that attacks and dash-attacks are separate attacks. Game doesn't make that explicitly clear. Dash-attacks on bow are faster than their attack counterparts. So most players on high heat don't even bother with attack. They dash-attack all over the place.
bronze viper
Particularly since they upgraded the Bow to shoot arrows instead of pool noodles with a thimble on the end
forest nebula
I HATE PROFANITY FILTERS
bronze viper
I kind of wish it gave you a second to copy pasta the post so you didn't have to remember and retype it lol, but otherwise it's whatever, you get used to it, and get to use more varied language
honest charm
You bring swears from the bowels of Hell
this is not their place ๐ช
forest nebula
but anyways 4th sword aspect is fun until you gotta deal with EM4
Or higher attack speed
forest nebula
Whiffcalibur
mossy zinc
I think the idea that bow somehow teaches you the game better than other aspects is baseless and silly.
bronze viper
I kind of agree, but if it works for people then it works
You do actually have to pay attention and position and aim
mossy zinc
You learn to use bow playing with bow. You learn to use Malphon playing with Maphon.
bronze viper
So if Bow is the aspect that teaches you to do that, who are we to stop them
mossy zinc
Well, of course it works. You learn fundamentals with any weapon.
So if they play bow, they'll learn fundamentals, too.
forest nebula
you learn how to use sword by leaving it to gather dust
mossy zinc
But that doesn't mean it's more efficient that way.
forest nebula
except excalibur, excalibur is cool
bronze viper
I mean, excalibur's entire story is that someone just left it in stone.
forest nebula
it gathered enough dust to be actually good
mossy zinc
I did like 160 or something runs with Malphon before 41 WR (at the time), then maybe 10 runs with Hestia before 41, then around 5 attempts with Beowulf for 41 and the 6th run was 52. I'd used the bow maybe 10 times at the time.
But I'd grinded the boss fights daily for hours with Malphon, Hestia, and Beowulf.
Deliberate practice with a very vanilla build of whatever aspect you want to use is how you improve with that aspect efficiently. So if that's not Coronacht, you're not training efficiently by using Coronacht.
forest nebula
I mean I once thought the Rail was just "better bow", then realized better bow is just Chiron bow because I'm a scrub
bronze viper
All of the bows are way better than they used to be, and Chiron probably improved the most, but I still think it's the worst bow
That distinction means a whole lot less than it did in Blood Price though
Where Chiron was very close to just being Level 0 Zagreus Aspect
mossy zinc
Early impressions like this can be very off, though. Maybe in a month you'll think it's the best and "why hadn't I thought of this strategy sooner" lol.
bronze viper
Oh for sure. The bows are wayyyy closer than they've ever been in power level
Someone in the other channel borught up an exploit you could do with Chiron bow and Concentrated Volley where if you spaced it right, the second volley would iterate off the first
daring hedge
i feel like i've had to explain the internal bolt cooldown at least five or six separate times in the past week, mostly in the context of chiron lmao
forest nebula
sadly it doesn't even work with Poseidon Special + Poseidon Zeus Duo
mossy zinc
Thunder Flourish CD not being explained in-game is very eh. I wish things like that were explained better.
I've explained "200 ms CD per enemy" so many times now.
uncut wigeon
Im still tripping out on the natural shield knockback triggering the poseidon/zeus duo
mossy zinc
That's clearly by design.
royal wagon
Fair enough
bronze viper
It's also new isn't it? I don't remember that happening in Blood Price
mossy zinc
I think it's ancient. You're just newbies. 
bronze viper
This channel is so much more relaxing in peak hours lol. My eyes were getting strained following @ chains
royal wagon
Ya combat/builds is a mess right now haha
Also don't think that is the channel for modding discussion but I was participating so I'm also guilty
bronze viper
Who do we message to suggest making a second builds and combat channel?
I'm not even sure that would help, but it wouldn't hurt
It might make the problem just 2x lol
royal wagon
ah well, new players = good things even if its a bit more crowded
dawn narwhal
how much heat is high heat....
I mjust finished 11 heat bounty with fist in 18 mins I wonder if the build is considered ok
bronze viper
Either 20, 32, or 40+ are the most commonly referred to thresholds
dawn narwhal
I see
bronze viper
But in general it's whatever heat for you that you notice that subsequent pacts start making the game noticeably harder
mossy zinc
I would consider 18 minutes at 11 Heat slow if I did that with Malphon.
But it's impossible to tell from just that if it's the build, the pacts, player skill, or some combination of those.
And sometimes it's just very bad luck with rooms and stuff.
That said, 18โ21 minutes used to be probably my average time with Malphon when I was still going up in Heat from 0 to 20.
@dawn narwhal maybe this build works as a reference for you to compare to? A whole minute faster than yours even though I had JS3 and CP2 enabled, which both really slow down the run a lot. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/756243144688795678/Hades_536.png?width=843&height=474
That might give you some idea for what potential there still is and what you might improve on.
ember bronze
Do most people flip into LC4/Stubborn by they time they're doing 32?
mossy zinc
I don't think so.
ember bronze
I have little experience with Stubborn but should probably start trying it
forest nebula
so.. thoughts on spear
mossy zinc
I think most people who do 32 are actually too scared to do that lol.
ember bronze
I just don't like the feeling of losing a run to a bad Hades fight
if I only get to go in with 130% health
mossy zinc
Well.
130% isn't really a thing unless you see Patroclus.
LC4 + SD, you can go in with as little as 30% + another 30% from SD.
mossy zinc
You'll want to get comfortable beating boss 3 and boss 4 with at most ~200 HP loss during each fight.
Well.
Acorn + 200 HP loss.
ember bronze
Yeah, which might also mean no EM3?
EM3+FO2 is still a giant mess for me, usually like 2 lives
mossy zinc
I'm always very frustrated with EM3 tbh, so that's a good idea if you don't like it either lol.
I think there's really no good reason to pick EM3 at 32. EM2 is so much more chill.
I can't even stand EM Asterius miniboss without Divine Dash. That shockwave is just so annoying.
so have to learn the Hades fight properly
The fight is very fun to learn, I think. It's mostly a very fair fight.
mossy zinc
Er. I don't know the new heat numbers off the top of my head.
TD2 is free, anyway.
I'd take TD3 at 32, probably.
For me, LC4 FO2 TD2 are default, and I actually enjoy having to push TD3, so I tend to run that.
Oh right, I just posted a 32 victory screen above. For Malphon, that's what I would run.
For other aspects, I might take JS and CP down to 0 and put those 5 points into something else.
alpine dirge
I right now have problems evn with TD2XD
alpine dirge
I think its 3
mossy zinc
If you're not good at TD, you can just pick something else for 32 Heat.
Plenty of people have done it without TD.
tardy path
TD 3 at 32?
mossy zinc
For me it's just a matter of pride or something maybe that I pick TD3 on every aspect at 32. Actually, maybe more as a skill check.
mossy zinc
If I can't do TD3 at 32, I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong (or not get 5-sack).
I think TD is ridiculous right now lol yeah.
tardy path
Like currently TD 2 is 28 minutes?
mossy zinc
Correct.
tardy path
Dropping it to 20 for TD 3 is pretty steep
I mean I like the challenge but hoo boy that must be hard to get used to
mossy zinc
TD1 is "are there actually any people struggling with this, and are they even trying?"
TD2 is "kind of challenging for newbies, completely free for vets"
and then there's
tardy path
Yeah...
mossy zinc
TD3 "impossible for newbies, free for vets at low heat, suuuper tight or practically impossible at high heat"
mossy zinc
Err.
Something between 1โ2, I guess?
It's not like I've done a lot of runs in 1.0 yet lol. Still haven't seen the credits.
tardy path
Oh damn. School work has been getting in the way?
tardy path
I made sure I got all my assignments so i could play 1.0 when it dropped
mossy zinc
Yeah, but then I make time and then people text me "I didn't understand x in class, can you help me with it" or "hey class president, can you tell me your opinion on . . . " 
tardy path
Such an important person 
mossy zinc
It's tough being popular.
signal tundra
does aynone know about a meta to beat meg
mossy zinc
And I also have to make time to sign autographs for all my Hades fans.
@signal tundra errrr... don't get hit, but do hit her?
tardy path
Furies are usually pretty weak so just outdamage her and you'll be fine
mossy zinc
Um.
tardy path
Weak as in health-wise
signal tundra
ok
mossy zinc
Yeah, maybe look at some high heat runs or speedruns or something for how they beat her?
mossy zinc
It's been awhile since I've actively thought about the fight.
tardy path
Every weapon is great for the fight
signal tundra
alright
tardy path
Judging that they are the first boss
tardy path
Why are you in #h1-high-heat-strategies...
mossy zinc
Yeah, I think you're lost haha. This channel is for like the top level of play lol.
Anyway.
signal tundra
oh ok
mossy zinc
I can link a run or two of mine where I was using Malphon to beat her if that helps you?
Might have spoilers, though.
mossy zinc
Err.. yeah lol.
tardy path
That to Malphon XD
@signal tundra Meg has extremely telegraphed moves so your best bet will to understand her move set first
tardy path
No prob 
mossy zinc
None of my Malphon vids features Meg lol.
mossy zinc
Is that my real secret to Malphon success? Don't run into Meg?
tardy path
Might have spoilers
I mean you're running EM right?
So technically?
Or does she not even appear in those?
mossy zinc
Oh yeah, she appears as an assist, I guess.
I didn't have EM at 20 Heat when I was doing Divine Strike only for the whole run lol.
tardy path
Only divine strike?
mossy zinc
Yeah.
tardy path
Lmao did you think it was op?
mossy zinc
I just did it back then to prove a point to @tidal flame lol.
tidal flame
that divine strike didn't have enough damage?
mossy zinc
Something like that, yeah. I don't remember exactly.
tardy path
Oh hi Fox!
mossy zinc
I remember I said 20 Heat with only Divine Strike would be free and you doubted it would do enough damage?
I dunno. Something like that.
tribal sleet
if i sell one of my 2 hermes boons, does that open up the possibility for another hermes boon to appear later, or am i still locked out of hermes for the rest of the run?
tardy path
Athena's boost is the same as Demeter's is it not?
tardy path
Wow that was a while back
mossy zinc
Which was . . . apparently only 3 months ago. A lot has happened since then lol.
mossy zinc
9 days.
Tailesque did 42 a bit over a week later, and then Resqtoaster did 44 only 10 days after that.
tardy path
And then Forge came out of no where with max heat
9 days of being WR holder
So cool
mossy zinc
I never looked at that run as in the same category.
uncut wigeon
Man, I kinda wanna get started on 32 Gilgamesh
mossy zinc
Well, just do that then.
forest nebula
what's the world record?
honest kernel
53 normally and 57 routed rite
bronze viper
54/57
honest kernel
oh who did 54
bronze viper
bablo
honest kernel
cool
tardy path
Currently Bablo has fastest time on unseeded
Was it a sub 8 min?
No it was just barely 8 minutes right?
I'm too lazy to check T_T
honest kernel
o chaos shield bloodprice I see
mossy zinc
I think bablo currently holds more WRs in Hades than he doesn't lol.
honest kernel
seems like it
tardy path
Yeah 1.0 seems pretty empty atm
mossy zinc
There's still a Blood Price Update tab, but yeah.
sharp cobalt
Epilogue% incoming
tardy path
Ooh that would be harsh
honest kernel
I still havent gotten epilogue and I played the game as much as I could after the release grrr
mossy zinc
They have a "50 Heat" category lol.
honest kernel
just 50? thats so wierd
tardy path
Nah epilogue% is way too long
mossy zinc
50 or higher.
sharp cobalt
Yeah, I was kidding.
honest kernel
oh I see
sharp cobalt
Though I wouldn't be surprised to see somenoe running till the credits/ending.
honest kernel
I mean ppl do stuff like pmd recruit all speedruns
sharp cobalt
Though it's a bit of a marathon speedrun.
tardy path
Yeah
sharp cobalt
Takes a somewhat different set of skills than normal speedruns.
mossy zinc
For us 5 people who did 50 Heat? I dunno what the point of that category is lol.
sharp cobalt
Yeah, but it also means you adapt to what you get. And you can do some planning with keepsake aquistion and stuff.
Could be interesting.
honest kernel
it'd make more sense to just list the runs by highest heats but shrug
I mean a few more ppl will get 50 at some point at least
tardy path
You know what, that's fair
sharp cobalt
There will inevitably be a few more people doing it.
honest kernel
its just a matter of who wants to do it
mossy zinc
There'll be a few more people with 50+ clears for sure.
honest kernel
and put the time in
tardy path
I forget that Hades has a larger fanbase now
Ever since 1.0
It's been pretty active here as well
honest kernel
more than enough tryhard gamers out there
tardy path
Very true
mossy zinc
Going by the category rules, it's still about the fastest run rather than highest heat, anyway.
That's such a fringe category. 
tardy path
Yeah but imagine what a flex it'd be if you have fastest AND highest heat
Really unlikely but that would be pretty chad
sharp cobalt
Also, query for you high heat lovers.
tardy path
Shoot
sharp cobalt
Do you think EM4 is worth the heat? Or is it one of the last things you'll add while shooting for your highest heat?
mossy zinc
Are you trying to goad me into going for the fastest and highest? lol
tardy path
Maybe
mossy zinc
I haven't unlocked EM4.
tardy path
I don't think I'm ready for EM 4 yet
honest kernel
I havent played much 1.0 but em4 looks exrtemly brutal to me personally
tardy path
I still can't beat it without additional heat
honest kernel
I'd avoid it
mossy zinc
Considering it implies EM3 and I can't stand EM3, the obvious answer is no lol.
honest kernel
em4 doesnt make the hades fight harder but also a lot longer which is a problem
tardy path
yeah so to think running tight deadline with EM 4 on is a big no
for me atleast in my current state
sharp cobalt
It is a lot of heat though.
tardy path
True
tidal flame
high heat category should start at 45 instead of 50
thoughts?
I really want to message Jerds to lower the ranking a bit
sharp cobalt
If you're not maxing out your pact, you could do 1 less Tight Deadline, have all the time in the world, and get more heat.
tidal flame
but want to survey people before i do anything
honest kernel
hades is the most problematic part of every run for me so I'd avoid em4 like the plague
but if its easier for u thats fine
tardy path
Hades has always been my best part
mossy zinc
@tidal flame I don't think I care for it either way to be perfectly honest.
tardy path
It's always getting that sack that screws me over
honest kernel
I dont care either tbh
tardy path
I'd like to participate in high heat but i'm stuck in the 40s so i care T^T
mossy zinc
I don't care about who has the faster IGT.
tidal flame
i mean my max is 42
if it's ranked by heat
it doesn't matter if the highest is 50 or 45
if you clear 53 you are ahead
no matter what
mossy zinc
It's ranked by time according to category rules.
tardy path
Why make it under a range then?
mossy zinc
I dunno.
tardy path
=/
honest kernel
does it really matter how long the list of runs is
mossy zinc
So you can still submit if you do 51 instead of 50?
does it really matter how long the list of runs is
Yeah because they need to verify each run.
honest kernel
I mean speedrun.com deals with way lager runnerbases
tidal flame
technically traditional high heat is not "speedrun", speed is not the goal
sharp cobalt
Challenge run?
tidal flame
so 50 heat speedrun is a niche within a niche
tardy path
Technically
tidal flame
oh Jerds
minor rover
Does it count as high heat if it's not hell mode?
tidal flame
yes
tardy path
Yes
mossy zinc
Which is why I don't care for the high heat category on speedrun.com. I just wanna do challenging runs for fun.
sharp cobalt
Hell mode isn't required.
mossy zinc
And maybe push the meta and show people what's possible.
minor rover
Thanks for info
tidal flame
Which is why don't care for the high heat category on speedrun.com. I just wanna do challenging runs for fun.
Fair, but a website for this is nice, with a verification system and a team behind it
tardy path
I still have yet to see a run which shows the demeterxaphro duo is viable
i still think it's a disappointment
tidal flame
I just don't want this new thing on speedrun.com become a wasterd opportunity
honest kernel
why wasted I dont get ur train of thought
mossy zinc
I'd rather try something good with Hera. 
honest kernel
it does work
honest kernel
but I always go for tripply flare on hera
tidal flame
currently the speedrun.com rules:
- The goal is fastest IGT
- You must do 50+ heat
tardy path
so does it aim at them or just shoots ahead of them?
tidal flame
Number 1) doesn't make sense, you don't do high heat for speed, you do it for completion
sharp cobalt
Aims at them.
tardy path
Without the duo
sharp cobalt
I think.
tidal flame
Number 2 severely limits the amount of participants
tardy path
You think?
honest kernel
wait why did you say 45 instead of 40 if the requirement is 50
sharp cobalt
I don't recall, I never use Hera bow ๐
tidal flame
because the amount of 40 heat completion is insane xD
mossy zinc
@tardy path I'd show you the Duo was viable if it didn't mean I have to pick boons from Lady Demeter at high heat.
shudders
tidal flame
45 is a good middle point imo, it allows a decent amount of people to do it while lessen the verification burden
sharp cobalt
Poor Ice Grandma.
tardy path
She'll cool you down @mossy zinc
tidal flame
yes, that's what I am saying
tardy path
yeah neither do we
tidal flame
I want it to be changed
honest kernel
okaaay so you're saying the bar should be lowered
tidal flame
yes
honest kernel
I se
mossy zinc
I think the only high heat AP2 run that featured Lady Demeter boons was fully routed all the way through Elysium lol.
honest kernel
demeter sucks for ap yeah
tardy path
I mean but aren't AP runs usually routed always?
mossy zinc
No.
honest kernel
she already sucks for non ap I never get what I want from her
mossy zinc
She has 9 t1 boons, 4 of which are bad at high heat.
honest kernel
sry foxhope I thought you refered to the old discussions we had about krasherkorrs list
tardy path
That's insane
mossy zinc
Unless you're @cedar spire, who mains Crystal Beam.
honest kernel
beam is kinda nice ngl...
ember bronze
Took at a work break to stream a Hades run over lunch, got a nice 32 win. Chiron with Dio Special start
mossy zinc
Anyway, Call is bad, Rare Crop is bad, Nourished Soul is bad.
mossy zinc
Haelian made 47. Crystal Beam was also there.
mossy zinc
I don't remember.
tardy path
Shame.
mossy zinc
2 of her t1 boons can't be sold.
mossy zinc
The more core boons you already have, the more likely you are to get either of those 2.
Yeah, you can't sell Nourished Soul or Rare Crop.
tardy path
Why not nourished soul?
mossy zinc
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
honest kernel
does nourished sould still appear on lc4
mossy zinc
Yes, it does.
honest kernel
oh no
tardy path
Lmao why
mossy zinc
lol
tardy path
I've been running A4 for so long I've forgotten to experiment with other gods at higher heats
mossy zinc
I imagine a bell rings at SGG headquarters every time somebody picks up a boon from her on high heat AP2 and it's Nourished Soul.
And they all have a good laugh together.
honest kernel
yes finally, epic nourished soul
mossy zinc
I'm laughing at every new message in this chat right now lol.
tardy path
Lmao same
How has dio been faring at high heat?
I've haven't run him in a while
Is trippy fog still strong af?
honest kernel
it wasnt changed I think
bronze viper
I am a personal fan of Dio core at high heat
Not just Aid
Aid is obviously always good lol
tardy path
What makes Dio's aid work again?
mossy zinc
Drunken Strike/Flourish is necessary for beating DC2 on some aspects. Although Lightning Strike/Flourish can do the same.
bronze viper
What makes Dio's aid work again?
@tardy path Enjoying at bare minimum 600 damage. That's the only rquirement
mossy zinc
Dionysus' Aid just simply does the most damage on even a single target.
The Lesser Call.
And it can hit everything in its AOE with all stacks.
Zeus' Aid in comparison just does 7 Lightning Bolts, and enemies are either close enough to that are not.
And even if they get hit by all 7, Dionysus' Aid would do more damage with 5 stacks.
Obviously Zeus' Aid can get silly with t2 boons and his legendary.
bronze viper
Am I alone in thinking that Clouded Judgement is S-tier if you have Poseidon's Call?
This boon is crazy crazy good
I'm at 40 and I forgot I don't have Athena because I always have Rip Current + Poseidon call up
Yeah, that was by far one of the least effort 40's I've ever done, and no Athena lol
bronze viper
Do hangover ticks and Doom procs tick your God Gauge as well?
mossy zinc
I haven't the foggiest lol.
tardy path
Smoldering Air is mad S tier
bronze viper
If so that could be why my uptime was so high
mossy zinc
My only issue with Clouded Judgment is there's no point in taking it when you have Smoldering Air.
bronze viper
It does but like... Calls have a duration
mossy zinc
It just doesn't matter if it stacks. Your Call already charges so fast that any extra gain honestly doesn't matter.
tardy path
Fair
modest oracle
Hermes still has a locked heart any tips how to unlock ||did the epilog allready only hermes is left||
mossy zinc
Bosses have phase transitions, so you're not literally spamming your Call anyway, and mobs come in waves.
modest oracle
kk ty
tardy path
Np
Has anyone committed to a Charon fight at high heat?
People keep complaining how tough it is but its pretty easy?
I guess I speak for myself
mossy zinc
I mean, if you think it's easy, go for it lol.
uncut wigeon
Im gomna run Gilgamesh with epic nourished soul.
I'll get turbo life gain to offset giving all those enemies +50% damage
๐ค
tardy path
I don't think it'd help
mossy zinc
I did the fight like 4 times lol.
tardy path
Yeah he is still rare to begin with
mossy zinc
Im gomna run Gilgamesh with epic nourished soul.
That's a good idea with LC4.
tardy path
Encountering him on high heat is unlikely
mossy zinc
Winning combo.
tardy path
Clearly 
mossy zinc
Make sure you max HL5, too.
uncut wigeon
How do I know if I did the epilogue?
uncut wigeon
Hmmm...
mossy zinc
If you have the achievement for it, I would say.
uncut wigeon
Lemme check
uncut wigeon
Well, my mom died wednesday
Proxybot can shill
Pretty sure I can characterize the week as i see fit for a few moments.
mossy zinc
I'm sorry for your loss.
tardy path
Hope you're fine.
uncut wigeon
thanks, Proxybot and some silly pearlclutching over a curse word didn't help in that instance.
๐
mossy zinc
Nourished Soul is a good boon if you're not running LC.
tardy path
Is it ?
uncut wigeon
Nourished Soul is wack and is literally there to troll me
mossy zinc
Yes, it is.
uncut wigeon
I just made that comment so you'd get a giggle out of it.
tardy path
Life affirmation always seemed more viable
mossy zinc
Why not both?
uncut wigeon
a lot of the life game boons always feel like the devs are calling me a scrub
you could play better and get something useful
or you could let us hold your hand.
I get why they're there but man, if you're deep into the pact (about 10+) they aren't always the best choices.
tardy path
The fact that this channel exists is clear they don't hold our hand
Instead they laugh at those who run LC4 and just give them infernal troves with healing
mossy zinc
This chat exists so they can steal our strategies.
uncut wigeon
and nerf weapons
mossy zinc
Darren told me in the AMA the other day that his highest heat was 32.
And Amir said before that Darren did the highest heat.
tardy path
HA
mossy zinc
So.
mossy zinc
On the team.
tardy path
Wait Darren completed highest heat???
uncut wigeon
in the middle of writing funky tunes.
tardy path
Oh
uncut wigeon
which is why he writes music for those moments
wait
darren is the msuic guy, right?
hope I'm not getting that confused
mossy zinc
So, if the devs call you scrub, just tell me and I'll have a word with them.
Darren is the composer, yes.
And also Zagreus.
And also Skelly.
uncut wigeon
Darren can call people scrubs
he is Zag
he makes music you hear while losing and suffering
๐
we should all play to our high heat music overlord
tardy path
The new track he made for EM 4 is absolutely spectacular
mossy zinc
I wasn't listening to his music when I did 52 Heat. Take that, Darren. #_#
uncut wigeon
just wait til that EM4 theme hits you
tardy path
He literally got "Godspeed" for that track O_O
tardy path
What are the other 8?
uncut wigeon
stuff I've done before and have to do again, Get Thorn to 30%, Clear an infernal Gate, Trade 20 times with wretched broker
use a God's Call against them
tardy path
Oh they fixed the achievement?
It was bugged to where you got it when you started a new save
uncut wigeon
I haven't maxed out a lot of the pre 1.0 keepsakes yet
uncut wigeon
lol
scenic swallow
Rest in piece?
mossy zinc
I dunno. Just stick to a solid core for your build and focus on actually making conscious decisions.
Dash deliberately. Don't just spam the button.
mossy zinc
At that heat, I like to go for Heartbreak Strike or Flourish depending on aspect, and then get Zeus' Aid to unlock Smoldering Air.
tardy path
Then its pretty bad
mossy zinc
On most aspects, anyway.
- Divine Dash
There's no "suck", that's mean.
You can still make it at 16 heat by just dashing mindlessly and stuff lol.
mossy zinc
But you'll be more consistent at that point if you slow down and play deliberately. That's assuming you can already clear fast on lower heats, at least.
Just speaking from personal experience.
tardy path
I get scared when I see both Lysol and Nyaan typing after I say something
Its my "Aw crap" moment
mossy zinc
Like, you wanna play aggressively ultimately, but you don't want to play recklessly.
bronze stratus
does LC negate Sisyphus's heal?
mossy zinc
Yes.
bronze stratus
Currently 3 minutes in, I think I'm close to tartarus end
luckily got charged skewer room three plus heartbreak flourish
should I go for Divine Dash in asphodel?
(GY)
vague fossil
I've been wondering for some time, is controller objectively better or is it just a matter of preference?
bronze stratus
tartarus done with 1:36 to spare
mossy zinc
Hm.
You should have skipped some of those gods. You already have 4 gods now that are locked in your pool.
LC4 without Stubborn Defiance is brave.
Hmmm.
Take the Thunder Signet and aim for Zeus' Aid.
Then go for Smoldering Air.
If you see Eurydice, take the Nectar for +10% chance of getting a legendary or duo.
bronze stratus
rip
took ath and ignored eurydice
;-;
lernie dead with 2:24 on the clock
praying for patroclus or kiss of styx
keepsake this time?
bronze stratus
you got this
bronze stratus
is my run salvageable?
crimson radish
Never used guan yu tbh but that doesnt look awful
bronze stratus
aight
the original plan was to fulfill the prophecy but I decided to get Skelly's prizes instead
mossy zinc
If you die, take Stubborn Defiance next time if you want to run LC4.
So that you can actually get some healing in your run.
bronze stratus
yeah
mossy zinc
And check every Well for Touches of Styx when you do.
bronze stratus
I would use GY but :(
touch of Styx? is that a heal?
or the dd
can't remember
mossy zinc
Touch of Styx is +10% healing from your Stubborn Defiance.
bronze stratus
ah yeah
mossy zinc
Normally it revives you to 30% once per chamber.
With that, it's 40%.
Way more effective HP, and it's very cheap.
bronze stratus
and athena boons can boost that too I assume?
mossy zinc
Yeah.
If you lose your SD in the chamber before picking up her Last Stand or Deathless Stand, you get a free DD from her + your SD will replenish in the next chamber, too.
bronze stratus
oh, so the DD still applies? sweet
I've done LC4 with DD before, just not on high heat as well
bronze stratus
woo!
bronze stratus
acorn is best
love acorn
before acorn it was spear
aight, what boons should I be looking for for the rest of Elysium?
mossy zinc
Anything from Lady Athena or Lady Aphrodite.
bronze stratus
slash items
bronze stratus
hmm. yeah. If I could get quick spin and athena strike that would be quite nice too
tardy path
Aww cruds
bronze stratus
get me some heals
bronze stratus
no
tardy path
Aight
honest charm
unless
bronze stratus
okay, pom or centaur heart?
I'm honestly not sure where the priority ought to lie
see pics above for context
daring hedge
definitely heart, going off of the pic
your flourish is the only boon that you'd want levels in right now, really, and since it's already at 4, you'll be getting diminishing returns
tardy path
how much gold you got?
bronze stratus
599
daring hedge
definitely heart
tardy path
Heart
daring hedge
600 is plenty with no CF active
tardy path
Agreed
tardy path
Hammer
bronze stratus
took a buncha damage lol
daring hedge
yeah, you were kind of set with your charged skewer build anyway. too bad you didn't get breaching skewer or something
daring hedge
either flaring or winged
without an attack boon, serrated won't do much but hinder you
bronze stratus
yup. call would be handy tho
daring hedge
not worth it by now probably, yeah, just skip it