only the first gives 2 dmg, the rest all give 1
#h1-high-heat-strategies
bronze viper
Well I say early poms because you aren't likely to keep levelling it past Asphodel
proud jay
yeah
bronze viper
Rama's main strength is it's weakness. Having a 60% damage multiplier on single target that only grows multiplicatively in groups means the base weapon has to be poop
I mean, it has IMO the best special in the game for status
exotic coral
Get Lucier, Put Athena on the Special. GG.
austere parrot
can you get triple shot with ||lucifer||? I coulda sworn I rolled it the first time I used it, but the past several runs, nope
mossy oar
yes
mossy zinc
@bronze viper I actually think there's no good reason to take HL5 at 40. It makes things unnecessarily hard.
Maybe for a few aspects like Hestia, it's a good strategy.
bronze viper
Oh I know lol. That's why I gave up the project
mossy zinc
Well, with Hestia I would most definitely take HL5 at 40+ because I'm very confident in doing most fights without getting hit—especially if I have two dashes.
bronze viper
JS, CP, and DC felt awful on Excalibur though, and I typically despise playing AP2 at 40. Usually at 40 I just want to pick whatever boons and expect to have to play very well to get to the end
mossy zinc
I actually like AP2 more than AP0, and AP1 is kind of a weird inbetween lol.
I also like RI1 way more than R0.
RI1 + AP2 is fun.
bronze viper
Maybe it's because for me I mentally box 40 as the "canonical" max heat. After that, seeding, AP etc. become increasingly necessary, and it kind of feels like a different game
I like both games, but they feel fundamentally different to me
mossy zinc
RI0 + AP0 is . . . if I really wanted to test a very specific build because I'm almost guaranteed to get whatever I want without much trouble.
bronze viper
Yeah, I like that feeling. Letting the pacts make the game mechanics as difficult as possible but let me build very specific stuff to see if it's still possible. Very different from the min-max problem of reducing my resources while minimizing the time/difficulty of encounters
mossy zinc
I like all of the pacts except BP2 needs some very minor adjustments here and there.
And DC2 hmmm . . . I don't think the Exalted Shades that pop out from Greatshields etc. should also get the DC2 shields.
And then get DC2 shields again when they resurrect.
bronze viper
I don't think Erebus should get BP2 either
honest charm
I'm suddenly glad I don't take gates
mossy zinc
Hard to say. You don't want Erebus to become easier than the regular chambers.
bronze viper
There's a balance between that and getting Shifter Flamewheels in Tartarus
mossy zinc
"Oh nice, an Infernal Gate! I'll take that to avoid running into BP2 enemies!"
Hmm.
Well, if I want to take Infernal Gates, I generally make sure I take Skelly. So you could say it adds an element of strategy.
Flamewheels in Tartarus are generally no problem if you summon him.
bronze viper
It's usually a function of how poop the doors are. If it's blue laurel vs. Heart Erebus, there is no way I'm not taking it even if I'm Malphon
mossy zinc
It's hard to pass on +50 HP either way lol.
Even if there's like a trial or something, it's worth considering the 50 HP.
bronze viper
(it's usually an onion for me on Malphon lol, but still worth the potential)
mossy zinc
I wish Infernal Gates in Elysium weren't so very pointless.
honest charm
collecting onions is necessary for the codex right?
bronze viper
I think someone speculated that doing an Erebus gate for onions may be faster than normal Elysium rooms
Also, this is super anecdotal, but do Elysium rooms get more enemies as you get further?
mossy zinc
Super Elite Soulcatcher. Oh yay so much fun.
bronze viper
I feel like I keep noticing this
mossy zinc
All rooms do get more enemies as you get further.
Well, sometimes not more enemies but more difficult enemies.
Difficulty goes up with each chamber.
bronze viper
Oh, didn't know that
mossy zinc
Each enemy type has a difficulty value. Elite variants have their own value.
bronze viper
Usually because I start off Asphodel with the 4-island or S-room layouts so often lol
So it feels like smooth sailing after that
clever otter
collecting onions is necessary for the codex right?
Correct
mossy zinc
So if it's like, this chamber has difficulty 100, that means the values for all enemies that can spawn will add up to 100.
Dunno if it's per wave or in general, but anyway, that's basically how it works.
bronze viper
Oh, right, I meant to run an experiment with JS3 to see if it could actually yield rooms with extra waves
It definitely "feels" like it, but it's hard to tell
mossy zinc
I don't know if JS affects the actual number of enemies or the difficulty value of each chamber or how exactly it works.
I think there's also a limit depending on memory size or something? That probably plays a part in whether they spawn at once or if extra enemies only spawn once another enemy is killed or something.
bronze viper
I'll do the experiment tomorrow but basically I would route to a specific room in Tartarus that spawns a large number of enemies, and actually count them, and see what happens post JS3.
I have noticed that there is some observed max number of enemies (though Cloner definitely feels like it cheats that)
mossy zinc
Cloner actually has a difficulty multiplier for the enemy type that gets it.
So there will be fewer "real" enemies of that type than if they didn't have Cloner.
bronze viper
That's... good I guess lol. If only they didn't get Savior hearts, DC2, or Puller auras
proud jay
Also, this is super anecdotal, but do Elysium rooms get more enemies as you get further?
@bronze viper the last elysium encounters are definitely the worst rooms there are
also getting thanatos at chamber ~33 is terribly long
bronze viper
Right? There's like a million waves it's awful
mossy zinc
I'm always happy if I get to skip chambers at the end of Elysium.
bronze viper
Or the blessed last room Patty
proud jay
it makes a huge difference in speedruns
bronze viper
It's always a mixed feeling because I go through Elysium assuming I'm just not going to get Patty
proud jay
patty is so important for RI3 runs
mossy zinc
I always assume I see Patroclus or try try again. 
proud jay
single dash hades is scary
mossy zinc
I'm somewhat comfortable in that now.
But.
Single-dash DC2 Hades fight is 
.
If you kill a Super Elite Exalted at the wrong time, there's 0 chance to prevent it from resurrecting.
Because of DC2.
bronze viper
I tried RI3 EM3. Nope.
I have my lines. That's one of them.
Ugh, I'm like super excited about/dreading EM4
mossy zinc
I'm more interested in changes to EM3.
I've no idea what to expect of a potential EM4.
bronze viper
By the time you get to the last quarter of his health bar in FO2 he's already basically completely ignoring animation times
mossy zinc
How dare you.
bronze viper
I'm just not sure how much rampier the fight can get. Though I am much more afraid of phase 1 in general depending on RNG
mossy zinc
I think it's fine, but the real killer is skull > skull > stab > 360-beams in that phase. That's a terrible combo.
His attack speed is fine, I mean.
bronze viper
lol, he looks very janky with the animation cancelling when he does that in the last last phase
mossy zinc
I have to consciously remind myself that he's faster now whenever I get there though lol.
bronze viper
Kind of like I have to remind myself every time that "No, you cannot react to Speeder Greatshields. Just don't try. Oh my god, stop trying. Whyyy"
mossy zinc
Phase 1, I think, is way worse than phase 2 if you have DC2.
I can react to them, but not consistently.
So.
Of course I try because I'm too proud for my own good like that. 
bronze viper
I can react to the wave attack, but timing the dash away from the spin attack after the charge is... something.
mossy zinc
Hmmm.
I just dash through the charge and keep running for a bit. That'll get me out of range.
Then turn around and attack, hopefully.
For 1 hit because they'll already turn around lol.
bronze viper
What usually happens is I'll think they're going to charge, I dash through them, they pivot then charge me where I land lol
urban crater
here's hoping EM4 gives him a golden chariot like you know who 😂
bronze viper
He summons Theseuses and Asteriuses at 66 and 33%
mossy zinc
They flash briefly when they're going to charge.
urban crater
Hades is easy on high heat if you have a shield, his actions are quite predictable and block is godsend. Ranged aspects have to play this cat n mouse game, but melee aspects without block is just oof
It feels like you just have to play out of your mind with some kind of deflect dash timing nonsense
mossy zinc
I'm pretty confident in punching him to death at any heat.
urban crater
I'm probably not just well versed with fists since they put me to sleep on low heat let alone high though
mossy zinc
But I think there's like . . . 5 people who can say that.
I've grinded the fight a lot with Malphon, Hestia, and Aspect of Charged Flight. So those three I'm very comfortable in.
urban crater
All ranged weps I can do fairly easily
Its the really close quarters ones that are more difficult (besides shield)
mossy zinc
But Beowulf and Hestia with DC2 are very difficult.
urban crater
I never had a problem with Hestia thankfully
I probably got a lot of experience with it doing 32 heat last update
mossy zinc
Well, Hestia can deal with DC2 fine, I guess, because you can still hit fast with the Attack.
But it's quite a change from DC0.
proud jay
hestia can go up to 50 without DC tho
mossy zinc
Yeah, definitely.
I think 50 is definitely doable with all aspects without relying on too much RNG. Well, some aspects will obviously rely more on luck. That's just the nature of things.
urban crater
Yeah agreed
I don't think very good luck is absolutely necessary until AP2 comes into picture
Then its obvious that you need to play good and be very lucky to complete a run
Or just route it
Then its just play skill
bronze viper
I'm working on a proof of concept for Rama starting with Explosive Shot at 51. Save scumming the hell out of it but just making sure I can hit the time thresholds with JS3 CP0 DC2. I have determined it's definitely possible with reasonable RNG
autumn sable
There’s definitely space for proof-of-concept, “perfect play”, or TAS runs that I’m sure people would be interested as things grow with v1.0
One would hope
mossy zinc
TAS?
tribal eagle
Tool Assisted Speedrun, although the term now refers to "perfect" play
so every thing is frame perfect
urban crater
Perfect play is only possible via a TAS
TAS's are capable of doing some really crazy stuff since they can do frame perfect inputs
tribal eagle
for short enough things humans can tie TAS
urban crater
Not really lol
tribal eagle
Yes
There's a dustforce IL that's 0.983 seconds
It's tied like 200 ways
And tied with the TAS
urban crater
Oh by short you mean under a second short, yeah at that point you'd probably be able to just brute force it
tribal eagle
It's like 3 frame perfect inputs or something
It's a fun half an hour
But yeah, it's not viable for anything of substance
tidal flame
Hey 6kj, long time.
halcyon frost
I thought they changed the meaning of TAS to Tool assisted superplay ever since someone made a Smash meele montage where a falcon and a snake juggle each other for 5 solid minutes underneath Final Destination. Definitely not a speedrun, but a TAS nontheless.
but maybe that is just that guy who tries to get everyone else to adopt superplay rather than speedrun.
most TAS runs are speedruns after all.
trim sigil
TAS tools are commonly used for non-speedrun means so it is somewhat fair to tweak the meaning
Not sure if either one is actually official rn, but comments like "Tool assisted speedrun, but this is not a speedrun? wut" are also common
bronze viper
meele
snake
@halcyon frost ?
tidal flame
Snake is a meele character, yeah.
bronze viper
Not sure if either one is actually official rn, but comments like "Tool assisted speedrun, but this is not a speedrun? wut" are also common
@trim sigil Tbf there isn't really a common word for non-speed challenge runs. Like my boyfriend keeps calling my high heat runs speed runs and I'm like... I guess you're in the right neighborhood, sure whatever. He'll understand when he actually starts Hades lol.
tidal flame
It's a "showcase" if the run is featured in GDQ. Although that's not exactly an apt description, either.
autumn sable
Snake is not a melee character. They are referring to a fox vs falco TAS video
halcyon frost
ledgerdamayn is right, snake aint a melee charakter. Can you tell I am not an OG smash player? #exposed. Nevermind, I only came on board with smash four and I can't tell brawl melee and 64 apart very well. rip me.
mossy zinc
This is not that channel.
tidal flame
I'll allow it.
frail crane
Nice :D
tardy path
Wow you're just taking everything today
BUT SHEESH
8:32
That's like 3 minutes faster than current 32 heat right? (Yeah it is just checked)
urban crater
Yeah
acoustic hare
👏
wraith imp
Just dropping by to say 👑 the lambent plume...
bronze viper
Heartbreak Flourish. Avoid DC1/2. Everything else is up to you.
uncut wigeon
FO2 is some real 💩
bronze viper
Lol you don't need to take FO2 at 32. Though keep in mind with Charged Flight that even a baby charge, or no charge at all, will still deal great damage
uncut wigeon
Im trying to do it with artemis boon.
Not sure if worth it, but I do love seeing big numbers
uncut wigeon
32 heat done
No idea how nutty 40 or 50 plus is.
This nonsense was crazy, got a Heartbreak Flourish all the way to level 10
❣️
unique forum
mossy zinc
@uncut wigeon congratulations!
You somehow managed to have the worst Call for Smoldering Air though lol.
trim sigil
Hey, it's free dodges estate 
20% less charge required
frail crane
@keen needle Made it to his second phase with a crazy good build https://imgur.com/YYkDywp
Blizzard Shot, Cold Fusion, Chain Skewer, Double Lightning
probably would've killed him if I had Acorn >:3
keen needle
nice one! Maybe next time then 😉
frail crane
Ye! Signing off for the night, but I'll probably give it another go tomorrow
frail crane
Ah, of course
frail crane
Actually, I think I was lacking awakeness :3
Considering that that happened at 2 am for me
mossy zinc
Silence! Do not contradict the Queen of Hades! :princess_tone3:
mossy zinc
Good night!
proud jay
after having practiced achilles spear for speedruns i was able to clear 44 heat in one try lol
the damage with zeus cast is just nuts
mossy zinc
The aspect looks really promising. That's definitely the next one I'm going to max out.
urban crater
The buff did it some real justice
proud jay
actually made it stand out
i kinda hope they change spear special somehow though, feels kinda fidgety to use
and exploding launcher is pretty much the only special build worth pursuing
urban crater
charged special on guan yu is very real
but yeah otherwise its poo
boons feel pretty balanced nowadays (outside of dio and poseidon) but hammers feel as jank as they have always been, with some being incredible - but most others being anywhere between useless and actively terrible that make your build worse
mossy zinc
Make sure you post stuff like that in #hades-feedback, so they see it. 
urban crater
Poseidon being bad has been beaten to death over the last year I don't really see the point, I think its intentional
Not going to browbeat the devs about it, the game is enjoyable regardless
Unless you mean hammers
Idk how to even breach that subject they're just so all over the place
Just saying 'balance hammers pls' isn't really helpful either
At this point all we can do is embrace the jank imho 
tidal flame
Embrace the Snap Nova
uncut wigeon
Whats bad about Poseidon?
He may be bad at high levels but he was fun and welcomed at low level.
Being able to push mobs away and control the pace of the room felt really good.
bronze viper
That part of him isn't bad, its just that his benefits don't really justify his bad attack scaling and no contribution to boss fights
tidal flame
Thing is the safety from pushing foes away is outshined by Athena's Deflect. The knockback damage is negligible when you can't push away effectively the foes that needs to be pushed away such as bosses, chariots, etc.
bronze viper
We don't want Poseidon to go away lol, we want him to feel as good as a boon option as the rest of them.
Honestly the biggest change needs to be that you can sell currently unsellable boons for 0 gold
Because at this point I'd take Poseidon over Demeter any day
Can you not push Chariots away?
proud jay
poseidon is still op at styx chambers but that's about it
bronze viper
Pretty sure that works regardless of armor
desert cedar
goodluck
tidal flame
And hard to knockback when the chariot charges also
uncut wigeon
🤔
honest charm
mossy zinc
Why would do I do that when I can just RNG into Epic Greatest Reflex?
halcyon frost
@frail crane Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer. Were you like "hold on this challenge is easy lemme take the egg just to add some spice"? For real though, you got him on the ropes man, next time will be it.
frail crane
Nah, it wasn't easy, I'm just crazy xD I do think I can do it with just dashes though
tidal flame
One can sometimes find clarity in madness, but only rarely...
frail crane
I mean...I've already done Egg-only runs, and a dash-only run. Just haven't done them on 23 heat :3
tidal flame
dash only run with Tight Deadline is suicidal
frail crane
Probably
edgy arrow
ok so 40 heat
what weapon should i use
kinda done with shield of chaos for the moment, i used it a lot
is there another noob friendly option?
tidal flame
40 heat
noob friendly option
pick one. but seriously, if not chaos shield then hestia rail
another option is Charged Flight Beowulf.
obviously you will need to learn the weapons and have decent fundamentals to do 40 heat, but Hestia and Charged Flight Beowulf are fairly reliable at high heat (until DC ruins everything, but at 40 you don't need DC).
edgy arrow
cool thanks
mossy zinc
You should play what you're familiar and comfortable with.
And what's fun.
Anything past 32 Heat, the only driver is your own inherent motivation.
So if you lack motivation because you don't have fun with whatever builds you're playing, you'll have no drive to really push your limits.
edgy arrow
hmm that's a valid point
i might try a few runs with fists then, and see if i can get anywhere
prolly demeter
mossy zinc
If you run into any problems along the way, I can probably give some tips.
mossy zinc
You never know. Some people did 40 Heat first try.
edgy arrow
see? easy
alright
sidetracked by the real world lol
is there an established 40 heat profile, or should i just throw something together?
FoxHope mentioned no DC
mossy zinc
Depends on aspect and what build you're going for etc. Just do what you think is right.
edgy arrow
fair enough
mossy zinc
edgy arrow
anyway i'll see ya'll again in 20 years or so when i've managed this
mossy zinc
lol
Analyze what's killing you, then see if you can't change some pacts around to make that more manageable.
Or maybe try going for a different build.
edgy arrow
lol the upside is i'm being killed by stuff that hasn't been a problem in ages
so i'm unlocking neat hypnos lines i'd missed
Or maybe try going for a different build.
yeah okay screw it imma cave and try shield of chaos
i pray my death mittens will forgive me
mossy zinc
I meant more a different Malphon build lol.
mossy zinc
Malphon is easier for me than Chaos Aspect.
mossy zinc
Yeah, me and Chaos Aspect just don't vibe.
tidal flame
Is your brain too big for the simple special spam of Chaos?
strange rapids
I lose every run with chaos bc shield is so boring it puts me to sleep halfway through
mossy zinc
Did 1 run in 2 weeks, and it's a PB sub 15 with bow. I guess not playing for 2 weeks doesn't affect me as much as I expected.
Or maybe Unhealthy Fixation + Heart Rend + Smoldering Air + 2 Chaos Gates in Elysium + fountain + Patroclus just carried me.
proud jay
lul
tardy path
maybe
tidal flame
Is Unhealthy Fixation and Smoldering Air that good? Unless bossfights, they kinda do nothing for me
crystal iron
I think smoldering air is really good
bronze viper
Do you mean something else other than Smoldering Air? It's the one that makes calls charge in 5 seconds
tidal flame
I mean I'm wondering how Nyaa is using Smoldering Air as she seems to like it. Idk how so obviously I'm curious.
bronze viper
At its literal worst, it gives you an on demand iFrame generator every 5 seconds
crystal iron
just had a run with smoldering air and Artemis call (probably one of the worst calls for it) and it was ok.
bronze viper
So if your reactions are on point, it's kinda similar to Divine Protection but every 5 seconds
And that's ignoring whatever the call itself does
Lol, I'd take Artemis over Ares with Smoldering Air 😛
tidal flame
Do you want a DPS drop every 5s? - says Ares' Aids, accompanied by Smoldering Air
crystal iron
it's still an ok burst of damage and the 35% crit chance really shines when it happens.
bronze viper
For me at least, Poseidon, Athena, Zeus,, Demeter, Aphro, Artemis, Ares roughly in that order
sharp cobalt
Ares aid isn't terrible damag. And it's good for dodging stuff.
But it's probably the worst of them for it.
bronze viper
Zeus getting the nod over Demeter because it's easier to get Smoldering Air with it, and I would rather avoid picking any Demeter if possible
proud jay
i like smoldering air a lot
sharp cobalt
I respect Demeter.
I like her boons.
Though the healing one kind of sucks once you're on LC4 and should be fixed there.
bronze viper
She just has so much baggage with UC, CF2 and RI1 lol. With or without AP
sharp cobalt
Why convenience fee?
bronze viper
Limits the number of boons you can get per biome
sharp cobalt
I guess.
I really do like some of her boons though.
Ravenous Will is really nice to have, just around.
And slowing is nice.
bronze viper
Oh me too. Slow is crazy good. Unfortunately Mistral Dash is worse than Divine Dash and I'd rather leave that slot unoccupied, and there are other good Aids
sharp cobalt
Frozen Touch is one of the better revenge boons.
I wish I could snag frozen touch with Vengeful mood, one day.
bronze viper
Yeah, it's mostly the 2 tier 1 unsellable boons that make her a trap when you can't get that many boons
sharp cobalt
Absolutely.
bronze viper
I "thought" it was only an issue with Approval Process until Demeter showed me the truth--it's always an issue lol
sharp cobalt
If you don't have UC it's not as big of a deal.
bronze viper
Offered a replacement, rare crop and nourishing soul before the Tartarus boss RIP
sharp cobalt
That probably shouldn't be caught by the bot, but I guess I get why. Mild pet peeve, but I wish that rare crop boons weren't a target for Eurydice's upgrades.
bronze viper
LOL they are? That's amazing
honest charm
that's horrifying
bronze viper
Oh, I misunderstood, I thought you meant Rare Crop itself, But yeah, catching the Rare Crop'd boons also sadface
tidal flame
That sounds like a feedback to me
bronze viper
I'm pretty sure it can't
sharp cobalt
Yeah, I'm fairly sure. It's never happened to me at least.
bronze viper
I think you should edit your feedback to specify unless you have 3 or less upgrade-able boons, then it makes sense
So, Eurydice should prioritize non-Rare-Crop'd boons
bronze viper
They can stick it in with whatever makes Eurydice more likely to pick Quick Recovery. Every. Single. Time.
sharp cobalt
You mean Side Hustle?
bronze viper
Pff, Hermes gives you Side Hustle. Privileged.
sharp cobalt
Heheh.
Also, side question. Does anyone feel like the numebrs on Auto Reload are really... Underwhelming?
Maybe I'm valuing it wrong.
bronze viper
Yeah, I find both of the bloodstone boons to be quite bad
sharp cobalt
Flurry Cast can be nice.
bronze viper
The Infernal Soul one probably fine on Achilles
sharp cobalt
I've had builds where flurry cast really put in work.
It's very nice with Trippy Shot.
bronze viper
I wasn't lumping that one in, I meant the bloodstone lodging/recharge boons
sharp cobalt
Ahh, fair fair. Absolutely true.
Flurry Cast is also infernal specific, so I got confused.
bronze viper
It is? Huh.
sharp cobalt
I'm sure the Quick Reload one is fine in some niche exit wounds build, maybe.
Sometimes I wish I could get Greater Recall some other way. It's a fun game changer.
bronze viper
Greater Recall makes Zeus actually fun to use
urban crater
Styg Soul is good with Zeus cast on Achilles Spear
Probably not as good as 3 casts at the start because you can't reliably get more casts but if you do its dope
mossy zinc
@tidal flame Smoldering Air is huge on aspects that can't build God Gauge fast on their own.
And still amazing on any other aspect.
bronze viper
The only downside is being forced to take Zeus >_>
urban crater
Zeus ain't as bad as he used to be
random bough
Smoldering Air is huge on aspects that can't build God Gauge fast on their own.
does god gauge depend on attack speed/frequency? or damage?
urban crater
Attack speed and damage you take
random bough
all calls charge at same rate right
bronze viper
The big bar, yes, I think Artemis has 5 small bars though
analog bone
What is the highest completed heat as of now?
random bough
all of it
analog bone
really?
honest charm
yeah
random bough
madlad forge10 did it
honest charm
@urban crater did it
analog bone
only managed to beat the first fury after like 20 attempts lol
random bough
you need a good seed first of all
analog bone
would be cool if it could be done consistently without rerolling seeds
vut i guess it is impossible?
Does anyone have a link if theres a video of the max heat run, i would love to see it
honest charm
I just sent it to you
analog bone
oh! thanks 😄
analog bone
haha oh
honest charm
the new one is right
honest charm
You can actually abuse theseus a little harder on EM3
and bullboi's buffs can be overcome
random bough
divine dash sure helps
urban crater
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9a_YXOGtIY @analog bone
honest charm
can we get this pinned?
tidal flame
the pinnacle of high heat strategies
tardy path
^
tidal flame
git gud, but also route the crap out of your run
tardy path
Ay he made a 4 sack work, that's mad skill In my eyes
tidal flame
oh for sure, dude is mad lad 😄
honest charm
thepinnacle of high heat strategies
so, 32 heat
just have a build and you'll win
is it different at all at 40?
urban crater
The types of builds that are good/viable are different at 40 heat than 32
Things become more specialized and restricted
Though, technically speaking, with enough technical skill you can still make anything work
Above 40 is when things start getting restrictive fast though, as certain build cannot actually deal with specific pact options and after a certain point they're forced to choose them
ashen rain
watching that 57 heat run, people are talking about rng manip and like casting at walls to control spawning and stuff
Is that a real thing, and is there somewhere I can read about that?
urban crater
Its not written down anywhere, mostly spread by word of mouth and the more I investigate the more I learn about it
I think I did a decent write-up about it on reddit
@ashen rain
ashen rain
Thanks a bunch!
I am still approaching 20 heat, so im not remotely in the realm of 57 but I was just curious lol
urban crater
Routing isn't something for you to use in normal runs
It takes me days to weeks for a singular run in many cases
Not really worth it if you still need more resources to upgrade weapons / companions / mirror
Its just for speedrunning
ashen rain
aye, i was just curious if it was anything that could ever be done casually or on the fly
i've done speedrunning but not for a game like this
urban crater
You can't route on the fly, its literally impossible without some serious modding I imagine
urban crater
The reason I know whats in the next chamber is simply because I've been in it already lol, I had to play through probably hundreds if not thousands of different chambers to get that 57 heat run
tidal flame
if you are not speedrunning 32 heat, doing streaks on 32 is very feasible.
wriste13 had a 23 win streak on 32 I think (one for each aspect). I had like a 4 streak, and I am not particularly good.
so unless you are aiming for WR, normal play can get you very far, still
urban crater
yeah 32 heat can be beaten reliably with enough skill
Routing is just for setting records
Its probably not very fun to do for most people lol
tidal flame
that's why that 57 heat clear is mindblowingly good. great job 😄
mossy zinc
You don't need routing for any high heat run.
autumn sable
@urban crater what exactly is even needed for an optimized 58 heat run? Save file wise? You don’t need a fully maxed mirror, just Meg/Chaos shield and Skelly/Purse/Athena/Acorn keepsakes, yeah?
sharp cobalt
You don't need any mirror at all, technically.
Though it'll help to have rerolls available.
mossy zinc
I really don't think Chaos Aspect is a good choice for max heat.
tardy path
Why so?
bronze viper
I mean, that's demonstrably untrue now, isn't it?
mossy zinc
I mean, that's demonstrably untrue now, isn't it?
No, it isn't.
@tardy path the damage is not good enough to beat JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2 reliably.
autumn sable
don't need reliable if you just capture the one
tardy path
Just that combination?
mossy zinc
I think other aspects will be more reliable.
autumn sable
reliability is a poor argument if there's only one completion
tardy path
Probably yeah, but it also depends on what aspect your comfortable with
autumn sable
but i do understand what you're trying to say
i'm only asking what is needed should forge wish to repeat the route he set up for 57 on a 58
mossy zinc
Routed all the way through Elysium isn't the standard I'm looking at, anyway.
autumn sable
which is the context I was asking in
tardy path
I mean I only reliably do high heat with Chaos and Nemesis, but GY is fun
mossy zinc
Yeah, I was making more a general statement rather than responding to you specifically. In the context of routing, obviously things change a lot.
tardy path
Calm
mossy zinc
?
autumn sable
Your general statement is theoretically correct, but incorrect in the context of ledger.
Since he is right, Chaos shield has demonstrated that it's "good enough"
tardy path
@tardy path the damage is not good enough to beat JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2 reliably.
autumn sable
Which is also good enough.
mossy zinc
No, it's not? Good and good enough are different things lol.
You can't prove that anything is "good" anyway without defining "good".
autumn sable
That's semantics at this point. Chaos shield beat 57, so, if you can manage the same route on a Hell Mode file, theoretically it should also beat 58.
If something else is better at beating 57/58 heat, then it has yet to be proven, routed or unrouted.
If something else makes a routed 57/58 run easier, that too has yet to be shown.
tardy path
The Styx route could obviously be improved
mossy zinc
Semantics, yes. The meaning of words happens to matter lol.
autumn sable
We don't know. It's all theory at this point.
Sure, but I'm willing to guess that saying "Chaos aspect beat 57 heat routed" will still fall under a majority of people's definition of "good".
bronze viper
As others have corroborated, by "demonstrably" untrue, we have exactly one data point that has accomplished it. We don't even know if any aspect can do 55 unrouted yet (and nothing can do 50+ "reliably," that's ignoring the dozens of failures), though it is evidently theoretically possible with at least Chaos aspect.
Will it be optimal in the end? Yeah, that's not known yet, which is what I assume you're getting at, but it's not a very useful question in the moment when we do have a data point to examine and benchmark against.
mossy zinc
That it can do beat 57 doesn't mean that it's good at beating it relative to other aspects. That you lack evidence on what other aspects can do it in no way implies that it's "demonstrated" to be better than any others. It simply means you lack evidence to make a conclusion.
but it's not a very useful question
Since when is studying what aspects are good or bad at high heat not useful?
bronze viper
Discussing what aspect is ultimately optimal isn't a very useful distinction at the moment from discussing which aspects can even dream of doing it in the first place. It's putting the cart before the horse.
mossy zinc
I daresay every aspect can do it if (near-)full routing is the standard, or "getting lucky enough to get the same stuff without routing."
Why wouldn't it be useful to discuss what might be the best choice to go for when attempting max heat or 55/56?
That makes no sense, really. It's certainly useful to ponder what aspect you might want to pick for that.
And that depends on what you think is best at the task.
bronze viper
I daresay every aspect can do it if (near-)full routing is the standard, or "getting lucky enough to get the same stuff without routing."
@mossy zinc That's a fair conjecture, though from a data standpoint, even with small sample size, 3 people completing the three highest heats with Chaos does make the evidence based argument for Chaos being at the moment the default choice pretty easy. Until anything else can be demonstrated, it's just... a guess.
To say, in the moment, that Chaos is not the best choice for highest heat runs, when players have explicitly chosen to use it to success at highest heat, is just... wrong. It likely won't be wrong forever, but it is in the moment.
mossy zinc
No, it's not wrong lol.
2 out of 3 of those runs just barely beat TD2 despite only running CP1 or CP0. The other one was a 30-minute TD1 run with CP1 that also just barely made it.
That's precisely the problem I mentioned earlier that Chaos Aspect runs into when you increase the heat from there.
bronze viper
That's the problem that every aspect eventually runs into at it's maximum heat threshold though... There isn't an aspect in the game that doesn't care about JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2
autumn sable
good =/= best or even better than
but I would agree, typically chaos trades damage for safety unless you get really lucky/routed with appropriate boons
mossy zinc
Some aspects are more reliable at it than others. I don't think Chaos Aspect is reliable enough for that with AP2 etc.
bronze viper
I would conjecture that every aspect at max heat will have to do some form of routing or hard seed-searching to find their equivalent of epic Thunder Flourish + epic Static Discharge + The World, but the fact that Chaos gets free defense in its damage loop kind of sets it apart
mossy zinc
A lot of aspects can defend very well while attacking with Divine Strike or Flourish.
bronze viper
Right, but Divine Strike's damage threshold is pretty hard capped by base damage.
mossy zinc
Nemesis with Divine Strike or Beowulf with Charged Flight and Divine Flourish shouldn't have a problem with damage.
Hades Aspect doesn't lack damage. I'm not sure about Achilles Aspect, I've only just maxed it.
autumn sable
I'd be happy to see any of those show reliability
until then, I have no real reason to say chaos aspect isn't "good"
only that other aspects could be better
mossy zinc
You have no real reason to say it's good for max heat, either.
bronze viper
I think we have to agree to disagree there, sadly
bronze viper
I can bend on Chaos being the best, that's an empirical argument based off of an extremely small sample size, but to say it's not good is indefensible
mossy zinc
The only problem for Beowulf with DC2 is the Hades fight to be honest. Though, that depends a lot on his summons.
autumn sable
good = not bad nor best
trim sigil
Good does usually mean better than average which is probably what causes the conflict of views there
bronze viper
The issue with Beo from my perspective, though obviously you'd be more equipped to address this, is that you can get all the boons you want, it won't really fundamentally fix the DC2 issue.
Comparably, Chaos has a real issue with CP2, though we have pretty compelling evidence to suggest that given ALL the boons, that even Chaos can do a 4 stack Styx comfortably.
mossy zinc
Nah, Dragon Rush is already 2 hits in a wide AOE. Lightning Strike or Drunken Strike can also help a lot, and it doesn't matter what rarity they are.
autumn sable
@trim sigil and you can say that by virtue of being the only aspect to complete 57, it's above average
mossy zinc
Dragon Rush is technically 3 hits even with the strike before you charge the Dragon Rush.
autumn sable
at least until you get more completetions
at least, empirically
could say it claims being the only aspect for 54 and 57
mossy zinc
Empirically, you can say you have no clue because you lack data.
autumn sable
n=1 is still data
n=2 if you broaden to 54+
even if you broadened to 50+ you'd still have 3/9
or only 1 of 3 different aspects
out of 23 total aspects
random bough
which mod do y'all use for seeds?
autumn sable
which, is still above average
in fact, if you broaden to all 40+, Chaos aspect not only holds the greatest number of completions (tied with Hades aspect if you count them all done by the same person), but also the highest heat
obviously, the data is still small, and probably skewed
but it's still data suggestive that at the very least, Chaos aspect is not bad or even average
bronze viper
which mod do y'all use for seeds?
@random bough No mod. Au Natural
autumn sable
just venture out and die over and over til you get the right start
bronze viper
I do too lol
autumn sable
ta daa ~ seed
bronze viper
I'm kind of excited to see my "real" stats though as far as boon choices and completion rates and heats when I start over on switch. I'll keep my PC save for heat records
random bough
just venture out and die over and over til you get the right start
well... i'd think downloading a mod would probably be easier
bronze viper
Lol. All sorts of things would be a lot easier. C'est la vie.
random bough
people who do routing and stuff need the seed don't they?
mossy zinc
Changing some lines of code, so I can get some boons without prerequites, would also be a lot easier.
bronze viper
The lack of seed management has been heavily feedback'd
bronze viper
Hello, Second Rare Crop
mossy zinc
Oh, look. Smoldering Air is now a priority boon. How very nice.
bronze viper
people who do routing and stuff need the seed don't they?
@random bough Yes. It's an unfortunate reality that every person who aspires to do high heat must come to terms with, that it involves a lot of Sudoku.
random bough
Well, how do they get the seed ?
bronze viper
Lots and lots of honorable sudoku
mossy zinc
I still remember that 9 + 5 + 7. 😓
trim sigil
No, not giving up actually
mossy zinc
You die to find a seed. You give up to reuse your seed.
bronze viper
Giving Up is how you keep your seed through multiple attempts
random bough
yeah and that's what you'd use for routing right
trim sigil
Correct
(or a savefile copy if you didn't give up in time and messed up the seed)
Either way, you do have to do a lot of sudoku to find a good starting boon/hammer
(and hundreds more to even dream of routing the whole run)
bronze viper
Well, a lot less, depending on RI1 and AP2
mossy zinc
We don't really route at high heat, though.
Well, that 57 run had routing all the way through Elysium, and some speedruns are routed.
But the runs that we generally do and that you find in Krashercorr's spreadsheet aren't routed. Most (but not all) are seeded, however.
autumn sable
all the routed runs have seeds provided for you anyway, so it's not really an issue there
if that's what you're interested in, in particular
random bough
you mean a save file to start with a specific seed?
mossy zinc
There's some small amount of "routing" in seeded runs, typically, simply due to the fact that you naturally tend to run into the same early rooms in Tartarus if you keep trying that seed over and over again. But a decent amount actually cleared after a small number of attempts where that's not really much of a factor, either.
And that's also different from deliberately throwing casts at exits to manipulate the RNG and stuff like that.
@autumn sable by the way, my Talos 45 isn't listed on the Twin Fists tab.
autumn sable
that's cause I haven't finished updating any of them on the main sheet
the ones with empty info, I leave there to remind myself to get to them
before moving to the tabs
relax, it'll be there eventually
mossy zinc
Nay, you cannot make me! I shall stress over it perpetually!
autumn sable
good
autumn sable
Sorry, I had to go back and move some older stuff around after all the fishiness
So if anyone who has anything to confess, speak or forever hold your peace
honest charm
fishiness?
autumn sable
fish%
daring hedge
hades-huge-catch-strategies
tidal flame
Imagine having to route for first bob catch xD
What decides fishing bobs anyway? Can we route it?
mossy zinc
The fish.
trim sigil
You can seed the fish!
So yeah, you can route it too ig
Or at least the charon's well for the lure
tidal flame
Introducing Fish%
edgy arrow
there should be a fish% heat option
if you leave a zone without getting all the fish, you die
mossy zinc
That would end all my high heat attempts.
mossy zinc
Rank 2 is you have to catch a common fish or you die.
daring hedge
warped fractal
Rank 4 is you need to catch a legendary or you die
Rank 5 you need to catch at least one Chaos fish before Styx
daring hedge
rank 4 is easier than rank 2 though
mossy zinc
@daring hedge do a barrel roll!
honest charm
trust your instincts
daring hedge
i have to do it every time i am told, it is law
mossy zinc
@daring hedge you've got an enemy on your tail! Use your brake! (C down)
honest charm
it's better to do a somersault (⬇️ + C left)
daring hedge
and zag can do one too! just cast
mossy zinc
@honest charm I don't think that's a real quote.
honest charm
it's real tactics.
daring hedge
starfox-high-heat-strategies
honest charm
if you want a real quote, "Trust your instincts."
mossy zinc
There we go.
mossy zinc
@daring hedge we'll just point to you when a mod sees this.
daring hedge
mossy zinc
"The Starfox guy did it. We didn't do nothing."
tidal flame
But but you asked him to do a barrel roll
urban crater
@autumn sable
I'd prefer a save with everything on it honestly. Perhaps the mirror isn't necessary, but maxed aspects / companions / all keepsakes maxed is definitely necessary for me to test things and craft a build properly.
@mossy zinc No other aspect really competes with Chaos Aspect for maximum heat
Max heat forces you to not only deal lots of instances of damage, but also copy with fast moving enemies that can end your run if they hit you just once depending on how much it is and when.
Chaos Aspect's shields throw takes good care of the former, and block / bull rush takes care of the latter.
One dash is too little for Rail aspects to cleanly deal with 58 heat, Bow is too slow to move around quickly enough even with two dashes (not to mention its serious hitting problem with DC2), and other melee weapons outside of shield are just defenseless without block/bull rush.
Its physically possible to do 58 heat on other aspects besides Chaos Shield, and even on non-shield aspects, but the herculean effort required is closer to climbing mount Everest yourself, without assistance, also a technically possible but impractical feat.
I'm still experimenting with a few build ideas though, but the cost of maxed Lasting Consequences really hurts their chances.
trim sigil
I'd prefer a save with everything on it honestly. Perhaps the mirror isn't necessary, but maxed aspects / companions / all keepsakes maxed is definitely necessary for me to test things and craft a build properly.
wanted to mention the speedrunning file which fits pretty much all the criteria... but speedrun.com seems to not work rn
honest charm
the speedrunning file is not hellmode
trim sigil
Oh, hellmode, then no
bronze viper
I'm still experimenting with a few build ideas though, but the cost of maxed Lasting Consequences really hurts their chances.
@urban crater Interesting. Why would LC be the bottleneck, of all things
urban crater
Routing makes AP2 not an issue (though AP2 largely sucks even for routing) and if I could heal then the hits you do take throughout the run wouldn't necessarily build up and end your life since you have no DDs
90% LC at cap would make a ton of different aspects viable imho
If LC goes down to 90% and AP2 is removed / replaced with something else, 57 heat would actually be fun to play imho
Normally, unrouted
bronze viper
Hmm, maybe, I guess? But in practice, wouldn't 10% of like, say, a Hydralite yield 3 health per 100? Total?
With HL5 that's like a fraction of a fraction of a hit
urban crater
Between that and fountains that adds up quite a bit
Its not like you can get smacked around all you want like normal lol
But it certainly gives you some leeway
Not to mention makes spicy stuff like Cursed Slash suddenly interesting to test out
bronze viper
Cursed Slash doesn't work with LC? I thought it had GY rules for some reason
urban crater
Not as far as I know
bronze viper
I haven't tried it, no idea.
urban crater
Also makes Demeter's healing boon not bad
Either way there is a bit of abuse and a bit of leeway it gives you
Just by having 10%
bronze viper
Yeah
I mean I wouldn't complain. It's kind of a bummer having fountain rooms be completely pointless (or randomly all you're looking for in Elysium lol, but not for the health gain)
And that along with letting us sell unsellable boons for 0g would make Demeter not the literal worst
forest mason
this isnt a strat but its really funny to me like CLAWING through 10 heat and then looking over here and everyones stratting out builds lol
also ok question: is there an effective way to plot out builds or is it all just luck?
pastel badge
https://i.imgur.com/mQTFxBZ.png This can't be real
I was curious to see if anybody wanted changes for it, like it giving more heat or something
crystal iron
it's heightened
pastel badge
crystal iron
although search is broken for me right now and doesn't search for anything
pastel badge
I ss'd the wrong one, i tried all punctuation and now have ended up embarrassing myself by SSing the 1 wrong one
Rip
Wait yeah, nothing is working wtf
Okay, at least i'm not crazy.
I'll browse again tomorrow
urban crater
@forest mason God keepsakes are a significant tool for crafting builds, and knowing what your chances are for any given boon are important for crafting as you go.
There are also plenty of builds that are good low to the ground, but can get absurd if you get all the required pieces.
This is more #h1-builds-and-combat than high heat though.
forest mason
oh yeah oh yea oops
ocean quail
@pastel badge Trap damage was changed once in my memory from 2 heat with two levels going 400/800%, but people were taking it as easy heat (because "lol, just dont step in them"). Thing is: going lower that what we have is giving away free heat, going higher...Well... At some point Styx's traps start to oneshot people. It was fun running +800%, but only after you forget how miserable you felt for the first 15 minutes after you got dunked on by a sawblade.
pastel badge
@ocean quail I'm just curious about what peoples takes are. I'm not particular on redundancy, i saw a couple hours ago that a bunch of people brought up what i'm preferable to, 400% damage giving more than 1 heat. As long as it's acknowledged in feedback, i know the devs will see and decide on it.
ornate jacinth
don't sawblades oneshot you at +400% anyways
pastel badge
Nah
mossy zinc
I think it's pretty fun.
You actually need to learn how to deal with the traps in each room and vs Hades.
Without Heightened Security, the traps are just so whatever.
5 damage spike traps? Whatever. 25 damage? Yeah, no, I'm not gonna step on that, please.
The traps are actually balanced quite well to only do about 50% of your max HP at any point.
sharp cobalt
I'm not saying it's unbalanced.
I was just stating how much it is.
And that it's not a fun amount to take.
pastel badge
I don't find it anti-fun, i personally just don't find it worth to ever take.
sharp cobalt
If you don't step on traps, it's free heat.
And free is free.
As things go, traps are fairly uncommon and clear. And it's a good habit to avoid them.
bronze viper
The only "exception" is Dad urns, which make HS actually dangerous since there are a lot of situations that you can get trapped or dash into one that's already in the process of exploding.
sharp cobalt
True, true. Also a good habit to learn to avoid them though.
ornate jacinth
my main problem with heightened security is I usually take chip damage in asphodel because I'm a smart person who stands in lava to hit the witches/gorgons floating over it if I don't have a ranged attack and the chip damage turns into a lot of damage with HS xD
urban crater
The new strat looks like it works lmao
proud jay
is it spread fire with deflect
urban crater
What?
proud jay
is it rly artemis
proud jay
thought you meant poseidon sword
urban crater
No 
proud jay
o lol
proud jay
why the H E C K would you get poseidon
urban crater
secret strats
urban crater
I'll laugh if I'm the reason why Poseidon doesn't get the buffs he needs by 1.0 lmao
"Oh Poseidon did 57 heat clearly he's balanced/too good" 
Once I'm done with this I'll maybe put up a third 57 heat run with another aspect
Getting better at this
Achilles Spear seems real
May be too hard though
proud jay
DC kinda ruins where achilles spear shines
and CP since you'd need quick reload pretty badly
urban crater
Achilles Spear buff applies to not just casts lol @proud jay
urban crater
Not really, there's a cadence to it, especially with Flurry
Its much easier to get on KBM
proud jay
yea probably
urban crater
There is a movement and attack set/combo much like Nem Sword
Nem Sword's is special > dash attack and that's it but spear's is a bit different
Achilles spear pattern is Throw > attack > dash-attack > attack x2 repeat
wraith imp
LOL....my first ever charged flight run with beowulf + aphro special is incredible. i'm doing 992 damage with each throw (thank in part to chaos and eurydice). I'm definitely saving this seed.
btw, will dread flight increase the number of enemies hit from 2 to 6 with beowulf special?
hollow lynx
yes
wraith imp
got it. thanks. the path i've had is incredible. (no rng manipulation, don't know how to do it.) beowulf with charged flight is incredible. think i saw a streamer try it and i wanted to give it a shot. hype: justified.
autumn sable
@urban crater I’ve been slowly whittling away at a Hell mode file and I suspect for routing purposes it’s mostly getting through all the possible story room and boss dialogue. Which is a lot.
urban crater
What? @autumn sable
Also found another 57 heat viable build that's not shield
Yeah this wouldn't be so bad if not for 100% LC and AP2
Everything else on the pact adds a whole lot of texture to the run
Though, to be honest, it makes me sad cast builds are totally non-viable thanks to the mirror being locked away. Cast builds simply cannot exist without mirror upgrades.
I wonder if that's evidence that your cast is inherently underpowered and that the mirror's buffs are OP as heck for casts more than anything
Like the cast was a total after-thought from SGG as something to build around
🤔
Who knows, it is what it is I guess
proud jay
so far the highest cast build i've done is 44 heat
and i've done a whole bunch of 45+ heat runs
i think that says something about high heat cast builds
urban crater
Losing infernal soul just kills cast builds on high heat
proud jay
yeah
urban crater
Imho casts should be build in 3 base and Infernal Soul should do something else more interesting like Stygian Soul
proud jay
probably
urban crater
Though its most certainly too late in development for them to make such a change
SGG wouldn't be comfortable with such a change - even if its within their design vision - without testing to make sure stuff doesn't break and we're too close to release.
Casts are just anemic without mirror buffs
bronze viper
SGG almost certainly does literally 0 balancing with RI3/4 in mind.
urban crater
Its not really about RI though
At the start of the game you have no mirror
And slowly work up to whats in it
Even then virtually everything is viable - except cast builds
They're strictly non-viable until you rank up your mirror
Its a bit odd in that way, which was what I was pointing out
trim sigil
^
With attack/special you don't really get a huge damage benefit upgrading the mirror, and even aspects being unlocked rarely result in more than double efficiency. Casts on other hand have tons of investment in the mirror
mossy zinc
I don't see a problem with that.
bronze viper
I meant as far as viability at high heats with casts. Also what is a "ton" of investment? There's just Infernal Soul. FF does lean more heavily towards improving casts but not by some huge margin
urban crater
Nyaa, I hate to say it, but you don't seem to have a problem with anything and call people out for having problems with literally anything 😂
mossy zinc
Yeah, Infernal Soul or Stygian Soul are leveled up pretty fast.
trim sigil
PS also improves casts by a bunch
bronze viper
They're the same slot
trim sigil
ah well
bronze viper
Also unless you're crush shot, or you get one of the secondary status effects it's pretty hard to consistently trigger PS with cast builds.
urban crater
Yeah PS isn't for cast builds besides Crush Shot
trim sigil
And gods legacy + fated persuasion to get fully loaded reliably. Granted, this isn't the entirety of bloodstone boosts, but that's pretty much the only consistent one
unless rerolling wells and using charons keepsake
bronze viper
I mention RI3 just because there is no cast build without Infernal/Stygian Soul, and I HIGHLY doubt SGG has done any design without those two in mind.
bronze viper
Fully Loaded REALLY feels like a Hermes legendary
bronze viper
It's a highly unintuitive playstyle, considering you lose your casts when they're inside enemies, so I don't think SGG wanted people to dive into them right away before they discovered one of the cast aspects
trim sigil
Can't help but imagine T2 boon series that will improve on certain/any god's casts by making it easier to return bloodstones if condition is met
Or simply generating more, or increasing efficiency of such
Blown Kiss taken further, p much
bronze viper
I'm like... perfectly okay with them not further diluting the boon pool with (more) poopy cast boons.
Buff the ones that are already there (Hermes), give Hermes Fully Loaded and make it actually obtainable
trim sigil
Just don't take casts if you don't want them 4head
But yeah, the problem of too wide pool is fair concern
honest charm
I feel like completely replacing bad news with fully loaded wouldn't be bad
as well as giving arti a legendary that has something to do with... uh...
maybe crits
buff pressure points and make it her legendary
bronze viper
Woof, I forgot Bad News even existed. Get that garbage outta here.
ivory glacier
Are cast boons not valuable?
fossil reef
Hey now, bad news is super good if you've got heat seeking Ares blades
bronze viper
You're already set if you have Hunting Blades lol
honest charm
50% bonus damage versus 200% bonus damage is how I see it
fully loaded is worth a lot more
trim sigil
3x dmg, actually. Cast amount is a multiplier after all
bronze viper
Are cast boons not valuable?
@ivory glacier It's not that they aren't valuable per se... Or maybe it is. It's just that they are locked behind very weird things. Artemis Legendary, Arty/Poseidon Duo, Hermes Legendaries
honest charm
200% bonus damage is 3x damage lol
trim sigil
Almost everything
bronze viper
Lol, it is still simple math, it's just obfuscated, since .e.g. Charged Skewer 200% bonus damage IS multiplicative, and 99.9% of other bonus damage is not
trim sigil
Heart Rend is multiplicated for sure
cedar spire
Don't take away my Charged Skewer pls, I needs it
bronze viper
I wouldn't dare :3
mossy zinc
brb making a feedback post to have Charged Skewer removed.
trim sigil
I'd take charged flight instead ;)
bronze viper
(so would everyone except Forge lol)
mossy zinc
Rude.
trim sigil
Indeed
mossy zinc
honest charm
I don't see any typing in feedback, we successfully bullied her into submission
gg bois
bronze viper
It is that, yeah
trim sigil
Delta chamber, on the other hand...
honest charm
delta chamber is good
bronze viper
That's a valid configuration of English words
urban crater
Delta Chamber would be less bad if it was able to be used with stuff like Spread Fire and Concentrated Fire (though the latter may get too good? not sure)
The 3-round burst is just strictly worse than its normal mode of firing too
bronze viper
If it was 5 burst it would be fine with Dio too
Though not appreciably more than normal fire lol
honest charm
the best thing about communicating over the internets is that you don't have to keep a straight face when you speak absolute nonsense
bronze viper
Lol, we wouldn't hold it against you either way. People have honestly defended the hammer before
urban crater
Most of that has boiled down to people liking not having to reload
ornate jacinth
delta chamber is fun
urban crater
A purely aesthetic change
Nothing to do with actually how good it is
Because its most certifiably not lol
But there's nothing wrong with having casual hammers in the game imho
bronze viper
I don't mind it being casual, but it shouldn't come as a strict cost lol
To effectiveness*
trim sigil
All it takes is for shots per second to match regular so it's simply "no reload in fancy manner" imho
It's too low comfort benefit to warrant a downside
ornate jacinth
but pewpewpew
trim sigil
you can do pewpew by dashstrikes
bronze viper
Literally pew pew pew
urban crater
I like BANGBANG from spread fire
honest charm
pewpewpew?
someone isn't using Hestia aspect with their delta chamber.
ornate jacinth
pretty sure it doesn't work
bronze viper
Lol, Hestia has to be deal with a lot of trash hammers
ornate jacinth
yeah but you don't get a three round burst
honest charm
I once reloaded over 100 times before leaving a chamber
ornate jacinth
I wish spread fire worked as expected with hestia
bronze viper
Back in my day we had to reload our Rails 100 times before we left the room. In the snow.
ornate jacinth
yeet a wave of massive damage
honest charm
charged shot is charged shot and normal shot is spread fire
ornate jacinth
yeah
honest charm
it works pretty well tbh
bronze viper
...The shield hammer?
ornate jacinth
?
bronze viper
Ah
ornate jacinth
make empowered spread shot have 15x normal base damage like the normal empowered shot
ornate jacinth
no 750 base AoE damage wouldn't be OP I don't know what you're talking about~
trim sigil
Ah yes, casual 675 dmg shots, my favorite
honest charm
I don't remember spread fire's base
ornate jacinth
50
trim sigil
wasn't it 45?
ornate jacinth
pretty sure it's 50 unless someone ninja'd a patch in since the last time I used it
mossy zinc
It's whatever you want it to be if you find the right line in the code to change.
trim sigil
Not wrong
Do I really want it to be 2.8xE28
ornate jacinth
not sure being able to casually bop hades in 2 shots would be fun
trim sigil
3 actually, since invincibilities
mossy zinc
Then, you could make it do 1 damage instead.
honest charm
5 shots minimum
trim sigil
3+2 is 5 quick math
ornate jacinth
I have no clue how the invulnerability gating works xD
trim sigil
It just stops at X hp regardless the dmg
honest charm
there are 4 phasetanks
ornate jacinth
I usually prefer fast firing weapons that don't care
also not exactly prone to doing 50 heat tho
honest charm
I've never even touched the heat gauge; what am I doing here
time to go
mossy zinc
Well, high heat isn't only 50 anyway. It's just whatever heat you think is high.
trim sigil
Technically if you keep the heat the same you don't touch it
ornate jacinth
yeah but you have to touch it once to make it high
wraith imp
In addition to EM4*, how about:
CP3, CP4 (+1 heat for each, total +60% more health)
JS4, JS5 (+1 heat for each, total +100% more enemies)
FO3 (+3 heat, total +60% more speed)
PL (+1 heat)
*I think EM4's heat should +1, +2, +3, +4 heat for each new biome. (Right now, it's +1, +2, +2 which doesn't make sense since theseus & minotoaur are much harder than the hydra.)
All that adds up to 70 heat.
/I'm still stuck on 42 heat. lulz
//"But some men just want to watch the world BURN."
urban crater
Not sure what those would necessarily add to the game besides FO3 - that would be extremely juicy for soeedrunning since it makes them spawn in faster.
Excluding EM4 I think everyone wants that
crystal iron
CP4 + JS5 would make for hour long runs
wraith imp
I suppose that was my attempt at creating the feeling of a zerg rush in hades.
But I'm surprised forge. You don't think the game would be more challenging with more enemies withstanding more damage in the allotted amount of time?
I also thought about adding in an option that bumps damage up to 200%. (There used to be an option for 500% damage iirc.)
urban crater
More challenging? It would go from a fun challenge to me wanting to blow my brains out
I like everything on 57 heat besides AP2 and the last 5-10% of LC, but I'm sure if there were more tankier enemies it would be miserable
I think CP3-4 would be the overkill
JS4-5 would be fine
Giving enemies more health makes them the classic 'bullet sponge' that makes me fall over asleep in my seat
CP2 is the sweet spot
wraith imp
As I said, some men just want to watch the world burn.
I agree that JS4-5 is manageable. But CP3-4 is the real challenge especially on bosses.
Probably not a good idea.
urban crater
I mean both would be a challenge, CP3-4 just wouldn't be a fun one lol
(reminder that CP goes absolute nuts with BP2 armored enemies 
)
wraith imp
Good point. The worst are the big chariots and shielded guys with bp2 getting extra armor.
mossy zinc
I'm not a fan of just making everything tankier to make things harder.
Most encounters won't be any more difficult.
CP2 as it is now seems fine. More than that is unnecessary.
But it wouldn't hurt me if the option was there.
wraith imp
If SGG does alter CP, I hope it's by making it +20% increase (instead of +15%) since some other things (like HL, JS, FO) increase by 20%.
/shrug
That said, I also wouldn't mind seeing LC be 5 heat by making each increase 20% instead of 25%.
But that's probably my OCD talking.
mossy zinc
Nah, +20% I wouldn't want at all. Just an extra rank or 2 for whoever might want it.
wraith imp
Fair. I'm not going to bent out of shape if CP is or isn't altered.
But I am firm on my opinion that EM's heat increase should be altered by +1 for each biome.
Getting only 2 heat for dealing with armored up theseus and minotaur is weird and illogical to me. It should be +3. Especially since there's a high likelihood of getting armored up minotaur twice.
halcyon frost
I don't disagree with those two being tough but also it is just one fight where it shows up and with Mort battie or antos you can trivialize that encounter somewhat. Plus em lernie in my opinion isn't harder than furies. If anything because of less boons and hp i often lose a death defy and sometimes evee a run there, lernie never manages to do that, so maybe make the last one three points but don't pretend lernie is harder than furies.
Actually em3 is the only one that can show up twice, so that's another reason why it should stand separate and not be a gradient.
On a side note id love an em4 where we give more toys to dad. Sometimes it feels like heros are the real boss, especially since my favorite summons are on strike when I am going up against dad.
mossy zinc
EM3 isn't very difficult until you throw in FO2 etc.
Lernie is def harder than the Furies.
Especially for melee.
wraith imp
"but don't pretend lernie is harder than furies"
Interesting confrontational choice of words.
- I almost never struggle with the furies. /shrug. By the time I get to them, I'm usually partly on my way to having the build I need.
- Lernie is tougher imo because of the lava traps / heightened security. Perhaps I'm not as deft as others at navigating them but that's how I usually lose a death defiance - either the lava traps or getting hit by a hydra head's smash as I'm trying to avoid lava traps.
mossy zinc
Head Slam is scary. Lots of Malphon runs that ended to that.
halcyon frost
I apologize for coming off confrontational, I was speaking from a dev perspective if you give a heat hike to lernie it is like pretending the fight is harder than it is.
I don't know, maybe I suck but I chose meele over ranged generally, and I struggle with furies more than lernie.
I feel like hs is more of a problem in the em lernie than lernie. And if we discount em heroes, for being simple until we throw in fo2 I think it's only fair to do the same with lernie.
wraith imp
No worries. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my mind. Just wanted to point out your tone struck me as odd since I don't recall ever interacting with you. (Nice to make your acquaintance btw!) 😃
But it's interesting to me that you struggle with the furies given your play style. Melee is most definitely my preferred style which is why chaos shield and zeus shield are my favorite two aspects followed by the fists/spear and excalibur/nemesis on sword. I like aspects that allow me to zigzag a lot and dashstrike effectively. (Hence, I avoid hammers on fists because some of them absolutely ruin how I want to play.) Furthermore, ranged weapons and casting feel very clunky to me.
mossy zinc
I wouldn't classify Chaos Aspect as melee. 
wraith imp
Really? What would you classify it as?
foggy ruin
Chaos Aspect is Zag cosplaying as a missle delivery system
wraith imp
So you're saying ranged?
mossy zinc
Hybrid, I guess. But the Special does most of the work. It's way different from Stygius or Malphon melee.
Zag Shield is the most "melee" out the Aegis aspects.
foggy ruin
Would be interested to see a Chaos aspect run around hammers like Dashing Wallop or Pulverizing Blow
mossy zinc
Zeus Aspect is more a "puppet" class + base melee. But very simplified.
wraith imp
Maybe I need to revisit my own definition of melee.
foggy ruin
Or maybe Empowering Flight might be more synergistic for an attack-focused Chaos aspect build
wraith imp
I mean...I don't want to get caught up in semantics but google's/wiki's definition is what I had in mind.
"A melee or pell-mell is disorganized hand-to-hand combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts"
Or maybe Empowering Flight might be more synergistic for an attack-focused Chaos aspect build
@foggy ruin
I actually don't rely on chaos special as much as others might. I do use the hammers you suggested often for attack centric builds.
Lots of dashing, bullrushing into attacks.
Btw, I'm playing zeus shield right now and I use the special as a yo-yo of sorts to trigger explosive return repeatedly while dashing and attacking with athena and ares to trigger merciful doom frequently.
foggy ruin
Right? Now I wonder about the interaction between if Empowering Flight and Pulverizing Blow if the damage bonus after the special hits is expended after pressing attack once since your attack hits twice with Pulverizing Blow
I absolutely adore Explosive Return on Zeus aspect and it was my seed when I was trying to get 40 heat with it.
wraith imp
I've wondered about that. But I'm clicking so quickly and the numbers are flashing fast. I wish I had recording setup so that i could go back, slow it down, and rewatch some of what's happening.
I pick-up some neat tricks from watching others' streams.
urban crater
Shields really aren't true melee aspects
Their mechanics make them far more dynamic than other weapons
bronze viper
I mean...I don't want to get caught up in semantics but google's/wiki's definition is what I had in mind.
"A melee or pell-mell is disorganized hand-to-hand combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts"
@wraith imp Especially at extremely high heat you see a lot of people bull rushing backwards or sideways then throwing their shields into the Aether, knowing they'll hit something. In that way Chaos can be more ranged than literally any other aspect.
Fwiw I think Lernie is just harder than Furies period, with or without HS. The Furies test your ability to regurgitate reactions to a pattern, whereas Lernie tests your capacity to adapt to chaotic situations.
random bough
Btw, how does one dodge the flurry of projectiles attack from lernie
can you even dodge that one without getting hit
The super fast one in phase 2(?)
ruby cipher
Before a certain update they were even faster iirc
bronze viper
In addition to EM4*, how about:
CP3, CP4 (+1 heat for each, total +60% more health)
JS4, JS5 (+1 heat for each, total +100% more enemies)
FO3 (+3 heat, total +60% more speed)
@wraith imp I don't think they can affect the density and bullet sponge of enemies much more without a redesign or removal of TD. And man. I would hope FO3 would be worth 4 heat. Every push of speed makes things way harder than the previous.
Btw, how does one dodge the flurry of projectiles attack from lernie
@random bough Depends on how close you are to the head, or if you have Divine Dash, or Hyper Sprint/greatest reflexes. At some ranges you can dodge into the direction of the fan. You can just dodge away pretty easily if you have a movement or deflect noon.
It's pretty case by case.... I'd recommend making a save when you get that Lernie head and trying out stuff to see what works for you.
random bough
Alright thanks