well guys see ya gonna try my 50th time running 32 heat. Catch you all later
#h1-high-heat-strategies
shadow zodiac
bronze viper
glgl
shadow zodiac
thanks i need it
wraith imp
i'm still floored by the idea that 90% of high heat runs (re: 40+) die in tartarus.
proud jay
for me it's if i'm running AP2 and can't get what i want
otherwise i don't feel like i have too many problems getting through
wraith imp
Fair.
Then again, I don't have AP2 (or even AP1) on many runs.
So maybe I shouldn't feel reassured.
proud jay
kind of depends on the setup though, i tend to die way more with fists early on
and sword
wraith imp
It's just weird to me how much harder 40+ heat is over 32 heat. It's difference of 8 heat (25% of 32 heat skelly statue) but players become very dependent on luck/RNG.
/Upon quick reflection, I don't think i communicated that notion well.
What I mean to say is something like...
Going from 32 heat to 40 heat is way harder than going from 16 heat to 24 heat.
It's not linear. It's kinda like approaching an asymptote. /Sorry, if I caused some PTSD. (I'm a math guy.)
proud jay
the difficulty ramps up exponentially the more heat options you add
prime cairn
The grip tightens, making it harder to breathe. Unfathomable!
wraith imp
I think the game has kicked my butt enough times for one day in the 42-48 heat range.
I think it's time I return to the 24-32 heat range and get damn good at that before I make attempts at high heat.
bronze viper
That is wise.
wraith imp
Question: how do i isolate a seed+route? (i ask because i found a reasonably damn good one to practice on for high heat runs.)
Context: I want to make a copy of it because I want to return to it to practice while still advancing in the storyline.in the main save file.
bronze viper
You could just save the entire save directory. Or you could start a new file, then copy the profile1 files from the save you want to keep and rename (and overwrite) the profile2 equivalents
wraith imp
Hmmm...let me check a few things...
bronze viper
I just copy the directory because it's small and self contained.
And I don't take screenshots in app (pretty sure they save in the same place?)
wraith imp
So this is what I'm looking at right now...
https://imgur.com/a/HMczoq5
bronze viper
I personally just copy the Hades folders and rename them in a folder elsewhere, but I'm lazy
wraith imp
Ok, I just messed around on Epic Games.
I now have a profile 3 and profile 4 but no data in them. So how can I save my main file (profile 1) to profiles 3 or 4?
bronze viper
I start a new game file, then die to force a save, then overwrite the files
wraith imp
Do I copy all the profile 1 data (like temp and temp.sav) and copy it to another folder, rename them 3 and then paste it back in?
bronze viper
Rename your profile1 things to profilex.
wraith imp
Ok. And then?
bronze viper
Just keep a backup of your hades save folder so you can mess around without risk
bronze viper
There's also something more exploitive that you can do to practice specific bosses/mini-bosses. The game keeps a temp save (e.g. Profile1_Temp.sav) upon entering a boss room. If you save that exact file, then rename it to Profile1.sav (or whichever #), if you GIve Up in the middle of the attempt, and reload, you will reload in the beginning of the boss fight
wraith imp
Thanks for that. I was about to ask about that next.
But going back a step...
It should now look like this, right?
Let me see if it worked in Epic.
Oh my...it actually worked. (Even a total noob like me got it! Yay!)
Thank you @bronze viper!
bronze viper
You're welcome :) Enjoy
wraith imp
And when I reach a boss during the next run, I'll do that temp.sav file thing.
mossy zinc
You only need to back up Profile1.sav to save the seed from your first save slot. Then if you want to load it into your save slot 2, you'll need to already have a profile 2, so if you don't, just start a new game on profile 2. And then replace the Profile2.sav with the seed you backed up.
bronze viper
Why are you awake lol
daring hedge
https://streamable.com/7s6d3x thank you asterius very cool
mossy zinc
Why wouldn't I be awake? 
bronze viper
I should sleep lol. Good night!
@mossy zinc
mossy zinc
That was hours ago. 
bronze viper
Lol.
mossy zinc
@daring hedge have you tried evading it?
daring hedge
as you can see by the footage, i absolutely did
mossy zinc
No, I couldn't. 
daring hedge
evading the wall with an ungodly reaction time 
mossy zinc
I don't really rely on the "stick close to wall and dash away at the last moment" vs Asterius.
daring hedge
neither do i, but that doesn't mean i won't make use of it
frail crane
No, you rely on the "punch the bull in the nose"
daring hedge
especially when it usually works
but sometimes he just says no, and can turn on a dime, etc.
bronze viper
Yeah, my issue is most things against Asterius are "usually"
daring hedge
or run in a couple of circles after the wall evasion, which i don't think is something that should really be defended at all
that behavior is just bizarre
bronze viper
Or his loopdy loops when you use an invincible call
daring hedge
lol
bronze viper
I'm not sure why I always think I can divine dash through Alecto's blade rifts
blazing ocean
Haha damn I laughed really loudly there
bronze viper
holy wtf, I don't think I've encountered Speedy Seeker dusa heads before. This is toxic lol
Nvm, it's not seeker, they do that by themselves, It's shifter speedy
frail crane
That's worse
daring hedge
oh but there are seeker mini gorgons too, though
i just encountered them
they just home in even better
bronze viper
Do they just like... extra seek? lol
daring hedge
luckily i killed them before they could really do anything dangerous
mossy zinc
lol Speeder + Seeker is not a combo you can encounter.
bronze viper
Yeah, I was just momentarily confused because the projectiles were chasing me
daring hedge
51 hades aspect done; this time in exploding launcher flavor https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/743721852299509801/20200814014303_1.jpg
i'd say i'm still more proud of the 50 with serrated and no athena, but higher heat is higher heat lol
edgy cypress
proud jay
@daring hedge gz! i also thought about using exploding launcher on hades but didn't seem to me like it would work
i've been waiting for a proper seed to do ~49 heat zag aspect exploding launcher though
daring hedge
It was definitely more awkward at times, but less reliance on landing hunter dash damage in AP2 was nice, as getting the damage going was much easier
Also yeah I do think zag spear can make this work in largely the same way, though damage might be tight for some encounters without punishing sweep
proud jay
yeah damage is lacking in elysium/styx
one chaos gate would fix that, but that's kinda painful to make work
daring hedge
Yeah definitely
proud jay
CP0 is doable though without chaos buff
daring hedge
That's true, I'm probably way too used to CP1 since I've just had it on for so long
proud jay
just problematic for some weapons, that's all
makes hades fight more intimidating
(usually problem for RI3 setups)
daring hedge
Yeah, of which spear is a prime example without punishing sweep or GY base increase lol
Just really rough going in elysium
CP2 EM3 champs and hades are definitely things I would like to avoid as much as I can at 45+
proud jay
couple that with RI3 for real trouble
daring hedge
Exactly
proud jay
time isn't the only issue there, surviving alone is challenging
champions fight takes forever with CP2 if you don't have a weapon that kinda hits both of them (very few do)
daring hedge
And only makes the asterius miniboss even more of a massive pain when you get him instead of soul catcher
proud jay
at least it makes the champions fight slightly faster
daring hedge
Huge threat and potential time sink with very little reward in terms of his lost health for the main boss
I honestly just totally prefer soul catcher at this point
proud jay
soul catcher is starting to become painful at 50+ too
at least for some weapons, like chaos shield
since im running skelly it doesn't help either
daring hedge
Ah, true, it's pretty simple and painless with frequent sweeps and serrated or launcher to quickly take out butterflies or warrior souls
proud jay
i mean yeah, wasn't an issue with beowulf...
proud jay
what's your next project? GY?
daring hedge
Yeah, I might go back to that. I think I got kinda discouraged for a bit when a nearly ideal 45 lost at hades
But that's just high heat life
proud jay
that's slow animations against hades
i had the idea of getting every athena boons for GY
daring hedge
I was actually running a serrated build, so it was similar enough
proud jay
and hoping it works
proud jay
yeah that's why i run skelly nowadays
daring hedge
Lol I'll try that out sometime
proud jay
man skelly is great for elysium too
daring hedge
I'm just attached to meg's utility with champs and the styx miniboss if I need it
But yeah skelly is versatile
proud jay
while meg helps with damage, skelly also speeds things up by allowing you to go ham
daring hedge
How long does he last, roughly on average if you summon him for hades phase 1?
proud jay
depends on enemies
some kill him way faster than others
but you can do stuff like this
https://youtu.be/2thrQHzyQ1w?t=1582
daring hedge
I just have very little frame of reference since I hardly use him yknow
proud jay
i'm also more used to dusa, but started running skelly after 50 heat failures against hades' chariot
daring hedge
Ugh, those really are the worst truly
proud jay
unless you have like 4+ dashes or hyper sprint, yeah
still it's going to take a lot of time to get through that hp
with skelly you can usually aoe hades and the summoned enemies
daring hedge
It's pretty much the least ignorable summon barring harmless voidstones shielding hades himself
Just such a pain
Also not a fan of superelite strongbows but at least they aren't as aggressive spatially as the chariots
proud jay
they just get through your acorn real fast
daring hedge
Yeah
odd tartan
can someone sell me on Dusa plushie? havent played with it much, but kinda seems like a similar purpose to skelly's crowd control, but lasts far shorter
proud jay
i used it to stun enemies in elysium
also deals a little damage against minibosses if you have spare uses
skelly does seem more consistent overall so never going back
foggy ruin
while meg helps with damage, skelly also speeds things up by allowing you to go ham
Then you get bopped by Asterius' AOE
for real though, going ham in high heat feels good
proud jay
i don't use skelly against asterius or champions
foggy ruin
Skelly gets destroyed by the champions doesn't he?
proud jay
pretty fast
it kinda allows you to do backstab damage against asterius
so if time is really short then i would summon skelly
but theseus just ignores skelly unfortunately
cyan stag
What do you mean with ignoring? I saw Theseus pile his entire god call on a well-timed Skelly.
proud jay
god call yeah, but when he's in racecar mode he doesn't care about skelly
autumn sable
@daring hedge no onion gate. Very disappointed in the run.
shell imp
After a long struggle I had to resort to God Mode to finally beat Heat 32 to. With that, I hang my head in shame, and walk away from these hallowed halls, where the true gods roam free. For I am not one of them - a mere mortal after all.
bronze viper
Lol, we weren't born with the ability to do high heat. No shame here, brother (or sister). Keep the grind alive
(actually what does God Mode even do? I didn't think it was reversible)
shell imp
it grants 20% damage resistance (calculated after everything, so +25% effective HP) When you die, it goes up 2%
you can turn it on and off at will
I don't know how high it can get, but it means that eventually you can overcome any run with any Heat (unless you are in Hell Mode, where it is not available)
bronze viper
So all you did was give yourself -1 rank of HL? That's not bad...
Oh, how much did you stack it lol
shell imp
by the time I won, it was 36%
it was still VERY close
i beat hades 1 hit away from death
shell imp
I don't think I will be doing anything higher than 25 heat. It just stops being fun for me past that point
I can't even imagine what a 50 Heat run would look like
bronze viper
Yeah, I remember doing 32,then 40 chaos back to back, then trying for a day with literally any other aspect, saying "f that"and moving back to working on 15-20 to improve skills
shell imp
just wait until Skelly reveals a new Statue that requires 64 Heat
and the Pact gets extended a bit to accomodate (i.e. HL gets to 7 ranks)
bronze viper
The statues combine to form a Skelly Voltron
foggy ruin
The true final boss
bronze viper
People only see the successful high heat runs. They don't see the dozens and dozens of epic fails and crap builds
Haelian made a joke about it, that his youtube fans and twitch fans have extremely disparate views of his abilities
shell imp
if you had to rank them, which conditions offer the best value for Heat-to-difficulty ratio, and which are the worst?
sharp cobalt
EM 1 and 2 offer good returns. TD 1. Convenience Fee.
Approval Process 1 isn't too bad, but I hate it. I hates it forever.
bronze viper
LC4 asks you to play a different style, but it's not really harder or easier, it's jsut different. Which makes LC4 free 4 heat
mossy zinc
Lol I've died more in Tartarus than I've finished runs, probably.
shell imp
RI4 would get my vote for worst value no doubt
bronze viper
Yeah pretty clearly
mossy zinc
I don't get all the hate for AP2 lol. Never did. I think it's a fun challenge.
bronze viper
I don't hate it lol. He asked the least valuable pacts per heat for value
mossy zinc
Really tests your knowledge.
bronze viper
AP2 is just a fact in that regard
mossy zinc
Hm.
sharp cobalt
I just don't enjoy it? It's not harder in a way that I find fun.
bronze viper
AP2 is not something you can slap on any run and be like "this will increase the difficulty by 3 heat." You have to prepare for it specifically, and uniquely
sharp cobalt
It'd be like a pact option that made you unable to use companions. Or one that removed the ability to see room rewards. Would it be harder? I mean sure. But it's harder by virtue of removing interesting decisions.
To me at least.
mossy zinc
AP2 + UC really does test your skill a lot. You need to be able to make do with barely anything.
bronze viper
AP2 + CF2 + UC*
shell imp
I was actually surprised that AP does not work on Pool of Purging
bronze viper
150 gold boons makes the downside of UC very manageable
mossy zinc
CF2 is default anyway, but yeah.
shell imp
I barely care about CF since the shops have gotten more diluted with trash
only really buy hearts now
bronze viper
Like Demeter. Basically a gemstone
mossy zinc
But AP2 can be a lot easier than a lot of other pacts once you understand how to play with it.
bronze viper
It has extremely odd scaling. It's literally textless at 0 heat, but it's the most constraining at thresholds. Like around 40, where you can still do whatever you want build-wise, AP2 is crippling. At 50, it doesn't matter, everything sucks, so you just have to deal with it lol
shell imp
is there any extra dialogue for finishing with very high heat? there was some for 20, but i didnt see anything for 32 (other than Skelly, of course)
bronze viper
Dad I'm pretty sure has a line
||He gives you a backhanded compliment about your skills and how terribly you're using them||
shell imp
i think he said that at 20
bronze viper
Oh... that could be because I jumped the gun so hard on Chaos before doing anything else on 20 lmao
crystal iron
Approval process would've been so much less frustrating if you couldn't see what you're missing out on.
shell imp
oddly......yes
seeing your favorite boon come up, at high rarity, only to be crossed out feels like the game giving you the finger
bronze viper
That's part of the punishment 
It's also free information with regards to rerolls
"free"
shell imp
btw, is it me, or does Zeus feel like the worst god, all around?
bronze viper
He's the most self absorbed
shell imp
i mean, boon-wise
bronze viper
I do too
shell imp
other than Attack for fists or rail, I can't think of even a single time I found a boon from him useful (except some Duo Boons)
bronze viper
The problem with Zeus is that he really only scales with himself, which is a problem since you can't guarantee that you'll see that much of him
There are several 50+ runs with Thunder Flourish
Both 53 and 54 records use Zeus
shell imp
really? that special always seemed weak to me. IS there some specific build going on here?
bronze viper
Nope, it's the paradox of AP2. Since Zeus doesn't scale with anything but himself, if you happen to get Static Discharge or Double Strike you've pretty much completed the damage you need for that run
shell imp
Also 54 heat = yikes? So everything except TD2?
bronze viper
I think he did TD2
bronze viper
CP2 and RI4 are the pacts no one takes at that point.
bronze viper
At highest heat, JS, CP, and DC scale the hardest, as they are truly multiplicative in nature
Most pacts are approximately multiplicative in difficulty.
shell imp
does CP affect Armor?
bronze viper
Yes
shell imp
oh, that sucks
the whole ordeal did teach me a bit - I would have never thought to play with LC4 and Stubborn Defiance
it was definitely a different experience
bronze viper
Once you learn it though it's hard to go back. 4 heat is a lot to lose
Though my perception of FO2 Hades has changed dramatically since I'm no longer able to save 4 lives for him
shell imp
its weird, when I first saw SD, i thought it was woefully underpowered and needed to restore you to more like (maybe 50%). But I see now that would be pretty much the default meta on any decent heat, having used it myself, a bit.
crystal iron
Also Stubborn Defiance makes Heightened Security more forgiving (except final boss) and beneficial to an extent.
beneficial because you can kill yourself faster to bring your health higher for the next room.
shell imp
I wouldnt mind HS at all, except that getting one-shotted by an Urn in the Hades fight is really lame
mossy zinc
Like around 40, where you can still do whatever you want build-wise, AP2 is crippling.
@bronze viper I don't think so. It forces you to streamline your build, I guess, but in return you get to dodge a lot of other nasty stuff in the 40s.
Some aspects probably rely more on getting particular boon combos. But I think for most, it's not really a problem.
AP2 lets you completely dodge Hard Labor, for example.
Which is huge.
Since the meta is a starting seed with either a core Daedalus upgrade or an Epic boon of your choosing, AP2 isn't actually that bad.
bronze viper
Yeah, for the builds that already excel at working with only 1 boon or hammer, AP2 isn't that bad (duh). But that's a meta that's been defined because of AP2. At 40, a huge range of possible builds are still open since you have full freedom of boons.
And yeah, the builds that would already be able to AP2 would have it even easier at 40 but I would argue that that isn't how the game "teaches" you how to play. Up until you start playing with AP2, you have a reasonable expectation of being able to stack Chaos, Duos, Hammers, defensive boons, Privileged Status--all of those are gone (or highly non-deterministic) once you turn on AP2. So the builds that players have learned how to use up until that point no longer function.
That's what I meant about AP2 being crippling at 40. You really can just get better and play your own way up until around that point, then you have to learn a totally different game.
wraith imp
Lol I've died more in Tartarus than I've finished runs, probably.
@mossy zinc
Yep, yep.
The one by-product of doing a lot of 40+ high heat runs is that anything under 24 heat feels really easy. All of a sudden, I feel like Neo in the matrix where everything seems to have slowed down and I'm pretty much untouchable.
mossy zinc
Think I didn't miss any recent records.
Ironic that Guan Yu was the second to make 40 Heat and then just stayed there.
mossy zinc
You can find bablo's 54 Heat WR linked in the pinned spreadsheet.
tidal flame
Pretty sure it was RI4 and CP2 that was left off.
shadow zodiac
how does CP2 does it increase by 30% straigtht, or is it like 15% of health increase then 15% increase of that health. I assume its the former?
shadow zodiac
yea i assumed so, one last question for right now how do you manipulate RNG for different boons. Thats something i didnt understand while watching speedruns or the high heat runs.
hollow lynx
destroying pillars or pots, or casting right before doors, uses up the random numbers in the seed. therefore boons can be different (if you already know that it might not be a good set)
shadow zodiac
hmm thanks
proud jay
I think even gold piles left by gemstones and obol rewards affect rng
Also damage messages by entering chaos portals (which you can disable from settings before entering)
hollow lynx
i assume it's because the rocks that fall from pillars, the bits that fall from pots, and the tiny particles that flake off from casts all use rng for placement
proud jay
And summon unavailable messages
I tend to avoid obols and gemstones since health and boons are usually better options. Also i kinda streamline for the next chamber after taking the reward so i see a lot of similar endings to tartarus
Which is sometimes good, sometimes bad thing
mossy zinc
I think the value of Gemstones vs Darkness chambers is very difficult to gauge and depends on a whole lot of things.
If you look at just the monetary value of +5 max HP when +25 max HP is 225 Obols, then yeah, a Darkness chamber is worth 45 obols and a Gemstone chamber only 20.
But the reality is that your obols will most often go towards buying boons.
So the value of a Gemstone chamber can be 270 obols because you get to afford a boon that you need vs +5 max HP and 250 obols that you can't buy anything you care for with.
Or it's the +20 obols you need to afford a Touch of Styx to carry you through Elysium.
20 obols is also only 7 less than you need to buy an Aether Net, which makes encounters a lot easier.
trim sigil
Ah, the good old "What is worth more: a diamond or a bottle of water?"
mossy zinc
It's because shops are all or nothing lol.
You can't buy 7/8th of a boon. You either have the money, or you don't.
Sometimes you take the +5 max HP and end up missing 20 obols to buy something that would help a ton, sometimes you take the 20 obols and end up dying by 5 HP.
trim sigil
How about taking obols, missing by 20 anyway, and then dying by 5 hp? 
cyan stag
Outstanding move
shadow zodiac
thats called being cursed by rngsus
mossy zinc
Shoulda picked the reroll.
trim sigil
Fated authority pog
mossy zinc
The third exit in Asphodel that you missed because it was way to the right that was a key chamber.
daring hedge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/744648569419726858/20200816150516_1.jpg this run was so blessed
except for 3sack, which didn't even matter with the damage on hades
proud jay
that's a lot of damage
daring hedge
for real, it was pretty ridiculous
and athena aid really helped me out of some tight spots
proud jay
3 sack is often doable if you have the right stuff
daring hedge
where i might have just lost the run entirely
daring hedge
yeah exactly
i had a room full of elite greatshields where i felt so grateful for that
daring hedge
true yeah
i even got the backstab damage up from chaos this run
should've run skelly
proud jay
o man
i feel like hades aspect always has enough damage to run skelly
might need meg for something like rama bow
daring hedge
yeah
proud jay
i guess soul catcher is where the biggest difference is
daring hedge
my only meg uses here were on champs and the two styx miniboss encounters
proud jay
and styx minibosses i guess
daring hedge
with full JS, elysium almost feels like it requires pat and fountain chamber to not go overtime at high heat, or maybe a chaos gate replacing one of those two
even with both and all this damage, i had 4 seconds left with champs
proud jay
going overtime is fine too if you don't take too much damage in the fight
theseus tries his best to ruin that for you though
daring hedge
yeah i know, but i've also had runs that seemed fine but were going to go overtime even in a chamber before champs 😔
proud jay
yeah those happen sometimes
daring hedge
i got almost all of my important boons for that run in tartarus alone
blessed by an artemis and athena trial room
bronze viper
Rama likes Skelly as well. Lets you line up a lot of Sharanga attacks.
fathom hearth
Won on 36 heat, at last. Previous was 32, feelsgoodman.
I'm in awe seeing people doing 50+ heat.
bronze viper
Grats!
tidal flame
pay the vid tax, Tail
daring hedge
vid tax is paid in full, now up in #self-promotion and all
mossy zinc
@daring hedge congratulations!
daring hedge
thank you! 
mossy zinc
You're finally one of the good players. 
mossy zinc
Yeah.
Of course, it took you longer to get there than me, so it doesn't count as much as mine.
proud jay
50+ shield is ez
daring hedge
mossy zinc
What do you mean? My poor shield has barely any range, he with his super long spear . . .
He even got buffs.
I'm still waiting for Charged Flight buffs. 
daring hedge
beowulf's special now becomes "punishing toss" and applies a powerful debuff to your foe
mossy zinc
mossy zinc
@frail crane when is 50?
frail crane
Probably not this week, I'm playing a ton of D&D :3 Any Pact recommendations for when I do have time?
mossy zinc
Not RI4 lol.
I don't want to make recommendations because you might have better ideas than I do. Just see for yourself.
Depends a lot on the aspect, too.
If you do RI3, you should make sure you practice the boss fights with just a single dash.
frail crane
Fair enough ^.^
I'm planning on using Chaos Aspect for now, though I'm also working on a 40 Heat Talos
mossy zinc
Why not 50 Heat Talos?
frail crane
Because the highest I've done with Talos so far is 16 :3
But I made it most of the way through Asphodel last time
bronze viper
I haven't even made it to 2 blood with Talos
shadow zodiac
Lol and heres me doing 32 heat demeter
bronze viper
Yeah. I feel kind of petty for berating myself for being too trash to do Nemesis at 45 lol
honest charm
The next step after 16 is actually 50.
@mossy zinc remember being proud of your 32 heat fist clear
bronze viper
I will go down to 40 where the peasants frolic
trim sigil
Yeah. I feel kind of petty for berating myself for being too trash to do Nemesis at 45 lol
I stab myself for not being able to repeat 40 after rocketjumping there
bronze viper
I was just going to yolo my last 40 (Stygius) but then I got a good seed and I didn't want to waste it lol
trim sigil
Would it count as a fraud if you were to play the same seed twice?
Because if not, then maybe saving it for better times could have been worth
bronze viper
My 41 and 49 on Rama are the same seed
I like having the credit on my main though lol
trim sigil
Heh, i see
bronze viper
... that's enough for tonight. I'm so tired of this aspect lol... I'm already bad enough, but the last 3 times I made it to Hades it was a 4 stack.
proud jay
also my 54 heat is the same as haelian's 53 seed
stuck otter
Hey any advice for doing 32 heat? I made it up to 16 a few patches ago and took a break. Need to get back into the rhythm of the game, but next target is the last statue
severe terrace
The single 32 heat victory i have so far was with Fists of Malphon, Zag aspect with a plume trinket. and I just cheesed it with stacking dodge xD
wraith imp
@bronze viper how do you make rama work well on high heat?
i missed out when zeus rama was basically a WMD pre-nerf.
Now...I struggle with it using any boon even on like 12 heat
stuck otter
With anything. I’m looking for any advice from which heat to take, which weapons are more approachable, which strategies work with that
wraith imp
@stuck otter are you new to the game?
stuck otter
No, just new to high heat
honest charm
Chaos shield with doom or lightning is amazing.
DC2 is free with that aspect, and TD shouldn't ever be a problem
tidal flame
Yup, Chaos Shield with Curse of Pain or Thunder Flourish
wraith imp
shield is easiest to use because it blocks a lot of damage, doesn't require athena but helps to have her dash
if you take zeus special on chaos shield, then take poseidon dash with razor shoals...keeps enemies from being able to reach you
if you take ares special on chaos shield, then also take poseidon dash with razor shoals for same reason...off chance duo boon would be great (but best optimized with beowulf imo by getting cast).
stuck otter
is there a specific breakdown of pacts to use / avoid?
stuck otter
the endgoal is (only) 32
stuck otter
np. thank you
wraith imp
So...just fyi...there's a pinned post at the top which has abbreviations for all the pacts.
As for what to use...
Alright...
Loading pic...
honest charm
wth
wraith imp
So this is what I normally use for 32 heat on shield
honest charm
that seems unnecessarily hard tbh
tardy path
I'd say turn off CP and go for EM 3
wraith imp
For instance, i don't do underworld customs because i like to hoard boons
honest charm
I would go TD2 since it's a high damage build, EM3 because you can dodge and hit heroes at the same time (since it's chaos shield
CP is just kind of grosss
tardy path
Go for it anyways
wraith imp
Hence, I never use it.
honest charm
jury summons is also kind of sketchy
if you turn that off and TD2 on that's 1 heat you can remove elsewhere
tardy path
Elysium won't be your only problem...
I'd say most of my problems come from FO2 and BP2
wraith imp
jury summons is also kind of sketchy
@honest charm If i didn't have zeus special plus jolted, then i would be worried about jury summons
honest charm
I usually use RI1, it's practically free
tardy path
I mean
honest charm
if you need rerolls, get keys
tardy path
yeah?
wraith imp
@stuck otter Basically, when you're doing 32+ heat...there's no need to take approval process unless you absolutely have to
everything else is doable.
em3 might be hard hard the first few times...
stuck otter
Thanks for all the advice everyone !
it's going to be a grind regardless, thank you for the starting point
mossy oar
what changes about the elysium boss with em3?
cyan stag
Both Asterius and Theseus get new toys, so to speak.
wraith imp
the bombs from theseus
because i play melee style, i have a tendency to get hit by those
otherwise, i'm alright with either
cyan stag
Asterius gets a power armor that allows him, among others, to spin his axe a lot longer.
Theseus gets a war chariot with two chainguns and a grenade launcher.
mossy oar
does the king still have a shield?
cyan stag
The chariot can be destroyed, and he will be back to regular plus a stupid mask.
Once you knock him off the chariot, he does. Before, you can attack him freely, but he will be zooming around like the madman he is.
honest charm
no shield until you break his chariot, but you can usually kill him while he's summoning
EM3 theseus is definitely a lot easier to handle, the problem is how hard bullboi hits
mossy oar
aha
tardy path
Dem spins
cyan stag
EM3 can be a huge problem or an incovenience depending on the weapon. For now, it is totally optional, as it doesn't give that much heat. I imagine things will be different with the full release, when it is a prerequisite for EM4.
tardy path
Which aspect has EM 3 been a problem?
cyan stag
Wasn't Nyaanyaa going on about how Malphon struggles with getting outranged by the axe?
bronze viper
@wraith imp The three general build paths you can go are:
-
Dio special (ideally with Relentless Volley)
-
Crit attack: You want one of Explosive Shot, Triple, or Point Blank. Don't expect to charge all the way, it's not necessary. Spread Sharanga before attacking.
-
Thunder Flourish (it works, definitely not my favorite)
cyan stag
What points towards it is the as of yet unused third phase of the final boss music.
bronze viper
You can also mix and match. Dio special has very low boon requirements so you can go Deadly Strike for example to aim for Dio/Arty duo.
Thunder Flourish you are all in on special though.
wraith imp
thanks, i'll try those out.
What about demeter?
bronze viper
If you have relentless Volley, Arctic blast special probably works great. I haven't tried it but Rama special is very fast
cyan stag
Haven't tried that either, but it sounds solid. Throw Killing Freeze into the mix, perhaps.
bronze viper
The dream with the crit attack build is Triple + Explosive or Triple + Chain, with Aphro attack, and Hunter Dash
There's no crit in that build lol, but it's not necessary at that point.
mossy zinc
@bronze viper have you seen the new trailer yet?
bronze viper
I have!
I really hope that the bow special is base bow lol. I will cry many tears if that is new Rama special
bronze viper
trim sigil
It may be a hammer for all we know
bronze viper
Lol, either way, it's out of context. The special on Rama was a bit... overbalanced, but if they make the attack part significantly better to compensate I can look past it
Also a quick spread volley is better for the attack builds in general so it's already a buff in that regard I suppose.
mossy zinc
They generally make good decisions even if they make something weaker in some way. So I'm optimistic.
bronze viper
Yeah I'm not worried
wraith imp
i wonder if hades will be released as a physical copy
bronze viper
99% of the community complaint around Rama is that it's awful to charge, so they may do something to rebalance that.
bronze viper
ZOOM ZOOM
daring hedge
it is the "flagship" base aspect used in all the core key art, so that's probably the extent of it really
honest charm
It's in honor of my future high-heat successes
daring hedge
we cannot un-zoom the zoom
mossy zinc
This is definitely proof they'll buff Zagreus Aspect.
daring hedge
55 heat with zag sword immediately after 1.0 confirmed
mossy zinc
Triple dash distance.
honest charm
can destroy melee attacks without athena boons?
I like the sound of that
daring hedge
asphodel becomes don't dash ever: the biome
wraith imp
strangely...none of the zag aspects for any of the weapons are the best aspect of each weapon.
honest charm
sword and bow
wraith imp
I typed what i typed
trim sigil
+0.2 dashes per blood
wraith imp
actually...uh...maybe i'm wrong
trim sigil
That's the zag blade buff I'd take
mossy zinc
Malphon.
wraith imp
bow zag is my preferred for bow but I'm staunchy #TeamBowIsTerrible
honest charm
forgot about the FISTS
I will now retire in shame
bronze viper
Oh, just rewatched it. it pierces too. That's great for attack Rama. Okay I can get behind that. Dio special felt exploitive anyway.
wraith imp
honestly, i don't like any of the fists
lol
like...i'm not interested in doing anything above 32 heat with the fists
i'm hoping the 4th aspect will be better
bronze viper
FIsts do get brutal REAL quick with heat, I will grant you that
daring hedge
demeter would like a word with you, next time you speak with her
mossy zinc
@daring hedge that's cool.
bronze viper
I don't think I've felt such a sharp decline of "omg op" to "plz kill me" between 40 and 45 than with fists lol
wraith imp
lol
mossy zinc
I dunno. 45 with Talos felt pretty chill after dying a lot at 50 lol.
bronze viper
lol yeah i suppose that would change anyone's perspective
daring hedge
to be fair HL0 even with everything else does sound kinda chill
that was an interesting choice that i wanna try out myself sometime
bronze viper
It's the same heat, i wonder if FO-0 is better than HL-0
mossy zinc
FO2 is 6 points.
bronze viper
oh huh
daring hedge
and yeah it's chunky with heat points
bronze viper
Lol, been many moons since I've had it off, I thought it was 2-3 like the other pacts of its kind
mossy zinc
I think I had most of my deaths on 50 Heat to the Furies and Lernie, everything else was fine.
So, I felt pretty confident going in with just HL down from 5 to 0.
But at 50 with Zag Aspect, I had Long Knuckle. Same seed gave me Breaching Cross for Talos.
I think Breaching Cross is probably a better choice for Talos, because you can immediately Dash-Strike after a pull. So that worked out nicely.
tidal flame
I mean is there anything that can beat Breaching Cross in general?
daring hedge
bosses without armor
mossy zinc
Yeah, I'd def take Long Knuckle over it still at 50+.
Explosive Upper probably on Demeter Aspect.
Not necessarily, but probably.
tidal flame
recently I find long knuckle enables Demeter better, can't empower upper if you can't hit the enemies taps head
daring hedge
i have been considering doing demeter at 50 or so after getting an explosive upper seed
or retrying GY at 45 or higher
tidal flame
whew lads I have not gone above 32 heat for sooo long
although I guess I don't go lower either xD
daring hedge
back when 32 with all weapons was enough to sate the heat hunger 😔
mossy zinc
I thought I'd do a run or two today but ended up having to carry a group project for school. So I've still only done two runs since school started. 
daring hedge
those were the days
tidal flame
I am still living in the 32 heat days mostly
daring hedge
willingly or unwillingly carry lol
tidal flame
doing streaks is fun for me
daring hedge
yeah i've considered doing 32 streaks as well just to take a break from constant 50+
willingly but not exactly
mossy zinc
I've sometimes looked at the weekly challenges like "I wish this were challenging, could have been fun . . ."
tidal flame
well that's kinda elitist
mossy zinc
It's not lol.
daring hedge
they're intended to be accessible to most players, so it makes sense that they're not extremely demanding
honest charm
hades spear is hard to use
it's not FISTS
mossy zinc
Yeah, I don't take issue with that at all.
honest charm
takes some work
daring hedge
tidal flame
honest charm
I've been getting crappy builds and my current skill level isn't enough to overcome that
mossy zinc
Just for me personally, I'm saying. I feel kind of left out.
daring hedge
getting used to timing and spacing your spins for optimal damage just takes some practice, is all
honest charm
@mossy zinc have you ever heard of a fun run?
daring hedge
once that gets easier, you can run a wild amount of viable builds on it
mossy zinc
Thing is, if I wanted to try out random stuff, I'd probably do that at 32 or something.
daring hedge
you can always bump up the challenge concept at its base to something higher like 32; i've done that with some challenges in the past
mossy zinc
Yeah, I've thought about it.
But then I'm worried people think I'm just trying to show off or something lol.
daring hedge
i don't think people will think that
honest charm
so there's no problem here
tardy path
I won't
honest charm
@daring hedge with a 50 heat run for this week's challenge 🥳
daring hedge
i submitted my 50 heat to the current hades spear challenge and it wasn't a big deal
yeah
mossy zinc
Also btw the only Hades Aspect challenge I'd care to try is beating @daring hedge's record.
Actually thought of just doing some 50-whatever-it-was runs with it sometime lol.
Quietly.
tidal flame
wait for EM4 so you can take off some points
easy
the high heat strats strike again
mossy zinc
Then either post a new record or pretend I never tried anything.
daring hedge
gotta get a truly spin focused build with hades to 50+ which i don't want to do because spins aren't boosted by punishing sweep
i really wish they were 😔
honest charm
imagine if punishing sweep boosted your punishing sweep
daring hedge
i can dream
tardy path
which i don't want to do because spins aren't boosted by punishing sweep
Wait they don't?
daring hedge
nope
tardy path
Why?
daring hedge
only attacks and specials
mossy zinc
Because.
daring hedge
dash-strikes too
daring hedge
so you can run a heavily spin-based build for hades, but the only advantage you'll get from the aspect is bigger radius
tidal flame
Not all damage are created equal
honest charm
never noticed that the second spin on an enemy deals exactly as much damage as the first?
tardy path
Not really
mossy zinc
Not if things are dead after the first.
honest charm
armor says brrrr
daring hedge
which is never thanks to DC2
tardy path
I have damage numbers off usually cause i have a problem with colors on my screen
mossy zinc
@daring hedge did any of your 50+ have RI3?
daring hedge
nope, just RI2
mossy zinc
Hmm I see.
daring hedge
having the extra dash after performing the spin-dash is pretty vital a lot of the time
especially for armored foes as you can imagine
mossy zinc
You gotta figure out RI3 strats for it that don't rely on getting Greatest Reflex if you want to push it higher.
daring hedge
yeah, i have actually been considering it as i know how i'd play around the limitation
but i would have to adjust my tendencies on some fights first
mossy zinc
RI3 JS3 CP2 DC2 EM3 BP2. Gotta solve that problem.
Well, and MM, I guess, but those are straightforward.
daring hedge
yeah, the one MM encounter i'd kind of dread is power couple because of skullcrusher's wonky wave hitbox with one dash
mossy zinc
It's okay to use a summon in that fight if you have to.
Though, ideally you keep all 5 summons for Elysium and beyond.
daring hedge
i rarely ever use meg before elysium, so i could maybe use her just to strip skullcrusher's armor asap while nullifying his first wave too
mossy zinc
It's also okay to take your time with the Skullcrusher because it's Asphodel.
daring hedge
or i'll just get witches circle and not have to worry about anything
daring hedge
true, though the wave travelling outward indiscriminately still worries me since i just do not trust that hitbox at all
mossy zinc
I haven't had any problems with it lately.
Maybe just get a save to that fight, and practice.
daring hedge
it's similar to the hades phase transition wave where sometimes you're entirely out of the circle's visual range
and you get hit anyway
with SD freezes making it even more obvious 😔
mossy zinc
Oh, I just dash through the shockwave.
daring hedge
that's what i mean too
i mean like
dashing through, and visually being totally clear
but getting hit regardless
mossy zinc
Hm. I dunno. I just know to not press a button for a brief moment after dashing.
daring hedge
right, i'm not dash-striking for what it's worth
fists taught me that lesson pretty well lol
mossy zinc
Cast seems to extend your hurtbox the most after a dash, so that's something I never do after a dash.
I either cast before dashing or just wait for a better time.
daring hedge
yeah
mossy zinc
If you dash too far, you can end up dashing into the shockwave on the other end.
That's something I see often when people get hit by it.
tardy path
Cast seems to extend your hurtbox the most after a dash
How in the name of Hades did you find that out?
mossy zinc
Just eyeballing from experience lol.
mossy zinc
I used to do the Hades fight every day for hours lol.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just imagining it, or it's because casting moves Zag a bit.
daring hedge
time to grind for a good hammer seed so GY can be lifted out of 40 heat squalor
mossy zinc
halcyon frost
hey gang, anyone here that has done Tiank's week 10 Challenge? Because I am biting off more than I can chew with that one and I thought It'd be fun to get to know someone round here, hop on a call and stream an attempt before I go to bed so you can coach me into actually liking hades spear because right now I am kinda hating it. That is true for most spears though, really the only one I am on good terms with is Achilles.
Moved it from builds and combat to here because it seems like the better place sorry for double notice if I annoyed anyone.
tidal flame
I can probably record me clearing the challenge sometimes this week. Helping you live is a bit rough :D
honest charm
@daring hedge have any tips for this man?
daring hedge
really one of the most important pieces of advice i can give is that mini spins are your best friend for applying the debuff
and making use of dash-spins as well for extra mobility
bronze viper
The mini spin has such a weird timing window
wraith imp
question: isn't it possible to build a library of seeds?
for instance, if i create a separate folder, can't i create save file #5, #6, #7, etc.?
And when i like one, couldn't I just copy that file (say save #6) in place of #2 and just play it?
mossy zinc
Yes.
wraith imp
Yes.
@mossy zinc
Thanks. I wanted to confirm it before trying to build a library of seeds.
cobalt smelt
Can someone give me some advice on how to "git gud" with Arthur aspect please? Particularly with full Forced Overtime on (if my name didn't already give it away)
bronze viper
With FO2, you're going to have to rely more and more on your Dash Strike + Attack 1 combo
It's your most reliable burst option
Timing it is a bit weird, because if you do it too quickly, you're going to transition into Attack 2 and you'll probably get hit
Greater Consecration is your friend. Past 32 I really hate to not start with it
Also don't ever use Damage Control
mossy zinc
It's really just all about timing and positioning. Just focus on attacking without getting hit, and then the speed will come as you get more experience and practice.
That's really true for any aspect.
bronze viper
Though Arthur is definitely the slowest one. Not in terms of clear speed, but just like, animations
mossy zinc
Watching high heat runs or speedruns of any aspect you can't figure out can help a lot.
autumn sable
@wraith imp the caveat to building a library of seeds is that each seed also contains your meta-data so if you wanted to do runs that show up in the victory screen or archives then you're liable to lose it
bronze viper
I started doing the thing @proud jay recommended of jumping around to different aspects when seed farming to see which ones have good hammers at AP1/2... and I randomly stumbled upon another Rama AP2 Relentless Volley, with a key room 2, and a chaos gate. So... I guess I'm working on that now?
I was originally looking for Twin Shot for Chiron/Zag, Charged Flight for Beo, Serrated Point for Hades, or... something? for Hestia (I'm actually not sure what is ideal), but I guess that works too lol.
Follow up question @autumn sable. Is it considered routing to take a Chaos gate in room 1 (where the obvious blind "correct" option would be to take the key) if I know what the outcome tends to be in the seed, but haven't intentionally routed for it?
proud jay
@bronze viper for hestia you have ricochet fire, explosive fire and piercing fire for aoe, out of which piercing is probably best because it also gives +50% damage to armor
autumn sable
we've sort of touched on this, but anyone playing a single seed over and over is going to end up becoming somewhat familiar with the different routes that can crop up, pending their performance
it's more or less unavoidable
bronze viper
Is ricochet fire just mistakenly not in the wiki? I remember using it before on Hestia.
autumn sable
intentional rng manipulation is sort of what seperates that and is really the only thing that can be detected to any degree
bronze viper
That makes sense. Thanks :).
proud jay
i think ricochet fire was added in blood price
your attacks bounce to hit an extra target
bronze viper
As tempting as that would be for exactly EM3, having piercing unblockable +armor shots seems like it would be probably by far the best option, yeah. If only it was more worthwhile to start epic Artemis attack lol
proud jay
yeah piercing wins imo
i believe that's what i had for 49 heat
died at 50 heat a bunch against hades
autumn sable
also, fyi, explosive will break ricochet
if that just happens to be a combo you get
bronze viper
Breaks it how?
autumn sable
shot will no longer ricochet
bronze viper
Lol, Rail seems to have a lot of jank interactions like that. Like Hestia with Spread
proud jay
Piercing and ricochet also won't pierce iirc, or at least something weird happens
tidal flame
It pierces the second target so not very good if you want to aim the piercing, unless you are a geometry God.
mossy zinc
I think the best seed for Hestia is Epic Heartbreak Strike.
@bronze viper if it's within "normal play" of a seed, and you don't deliberately cast or break pillars or whatever to manipulate the RNG, it's fine. There's no real way to tell that from a perfectly blind run anyway.
So even if you could argue it's not a blind run, so it's different etc., there's no practical solution.
I think there are some ways to move the RNG forward or whatever before going into a run, so that's something you could do if it bothers you that you know the seed too well to the point it feels like cheating almost or whatever.
But there's no rule like that.
Well, we don't have a real leaderboard anyway.
Similarly, using a successful seed again—whether it's your own or somebody else's—is fine even if you know beforehand that you can get boon x in chamber 3 or whatever.
Because it's basically no different from if the run had been a failure and that person played the same seed again.
proud jay
imo hestia doesn't necessarily need aphro attack. i actually kinda prefer athena
and epic attack doesn't help you that much when you're dealing with a bunch of enemies
...and don't have aoe hammer
sharp cobalt
Isn't Athena on Rail pretty tepid value?
mossy zinc
I haven't tried starting with an attack hammer, so maybe.
I love the potential for Smoldering Air, though.
bronze viper
honest charm
jeez what
daring hedge
nice! maybe one day it can be fully done without routing
daring hedge
many of us would
urban crater
This was actually really fun outside of falling off the route / weird bugs
@honest kernel I DID IT
ON stream
Will upload to youtube later
bronze viper
I'm going on record again saying that AP2 would make an excellent mode, but makes a terrible pact.
urban crater
^ agreed
bronze viper
Lol, make Hell Mode that, to make it actually mean something.
daring hedge
hell mode aka extra heat with PL mode
bronze viper
It's just worse a lot of the time. JS1 and CP1 are disasters for a lot of builds
honest charm
haha what a nerd
that run wasn't even 58 heat
bronze viper
You do bring up a good point. If you're going to route a run... why not 58 lol
daring hedge
routed 58 when
urban crater
Whenever I get a maxed hell mode save
daring hedge
i was being facetious but if you wanna go for it go ahead lol
honest charm
you don't need a maxed save, because there's no darkness
as long as you have all the key unlocks and a maxed chaos shield you're good
mossy zinc
AP2 is great. If you want to do high-heat without AP, just do it without AP. Your choice.
honest charm
right, those also exist
that still takes a lot less time than maxing a file
mossy zinc
Picking AP2 and then complaining that it does exactly what it says it does makes zero sense to me.
bronze viper
I'm not taking the bait, we've had this argument before and our opinions haven't evolved lol
urban crater
I normally take the bait but not this time 
I did my 57 heat
I'm GOOD
Anyway that was a blast
frail crane
Woohoo!!!
velvet laurel
57 health lol
urban crater
Fitting!
wraith imp
@wraith imp the caveat to building a library of seeds is that each seed also contains your meta-data so if you wanted to do runs that show up in the victory screen or archives then you're liable to lose it
@autumn sable
Hmmm...
I'm not sure if I understood your post. But here's my thinking/process. (Correct me if something is wrong or out of place.)
Right now, I have 7 files iirc: 4 in hades folder (which is limit), 3 in ancillary folder.
File #1 is what I use to advance story and complete codex.
Files #2-7 are ideal starts/seeds for weapons. (I use these to just practice.)
When I encounter another great start in file #1, I "give up" and make sure to save it as another seed.
Now as I advance in file #1...
If I ever get a start that matches or resembles a previous seed (boon, boon tier, chaos placement, etc.), I overwrite previous seed with new seed to keep up-to-date with story progression across seeds.
By keeping seeds reasonably updated to match story progression in file 1, I don't lose too many runs in between.
And...As I understand it, I can swap out seeds. For instance, I can swap out seed 7 for 4 by switching 4 to ancillary folder and subbing in 7 to hades folder.
Please let me know if there's something I'm missing or not understanding.
frail crane
You can't swap out seeds without also swapping the rest of the save data, but otherwise that looks correct to me.
In addition, any run you do on your extra seeds won't show up on your primary save unless you overwrite the primary save (which would defeat the purpose)
wraith imp
You can't swap out seeds without also swapping the rest of the save data, but otherwise that looks correct to me.
In addition, any run you do on your extra seeds won't show up on your primary save unless you overwrite the primary save (which would defeat the purpose)
@frail crane
Yeah, when I swap out seeds I mean switching out all the files associated. I don't know if it's the same for everyone (steam vs epic), but for me...it means copying and pasting 9 files.
And yeah, if I ever get a 50+ heat clear, I'm overwriting main file (#1)...story progression be damned. 💀
frail crane
Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page (and steam/epic use the same format)
wraith imp
Cool, cool. Thanks.
wraith imp
@urban crater
In your 57 heat run, why did patroclus not offer a death defiance?
frail crane
RI4, I'd guess (haven't seen the video yet)
wraith imp
Kind of interesting that lasting consequences doesn't apply to stubborn roots.
It's clear stubbon defiance was introduced for high heat runs.
Stubborn roots was probably introduced for the same reason.
trim sigil
death defiance is not offered if you don't have dd slots at all
wraith imp
Interesting. Did not know that.
trim sigil
Also dunno tbh, stubborn roots fit more to a "I'd cheese the everlasting hell out of each encounter even if run will last 2 hours" type of players
Buuut ig with how consistent yet low healing is, it also fits to high skill groups too
@urban crater mad grats for the run! You squeezed the game like a pocket of mayo
4sack too
glad that tooth roots technique actually was used too 
urban crater
@wraith imp I had no DDs lol, he only offers that option if you have them
wraith imp
You mean no death defiance slots, right?
urban crater
And thanks! @trim sigil I think that some kind of powerful defensive boon is necessary for 57 heat, whether it be Athena Legendary, or Stubborn Roots, or maybe something similar I haven't considered.
And yes, no DD slots
pastel badge
Is it okay to pose a couple questions in here related to #hades-feedback for exploring ideas?
frail crane
I'd imagine so
pastel badge
Just curious since i did a whole write up and only after finishing it did i ask myself if this is even allowed
frail crane
This is the place for discussion, so yeah
It would either go here or #h1-builds-and-combat
pastel badge
I think i prefer this channel, as the audience for it seems more appropriate. Since it's centered around difficulty and Hell Mode.
Curious about peoples thoughts on what a different Hell Mode would look like. I posted an idea in #hades-feedback that i think better fits as a separate mode entirely, being permadeath. But it only has 1 upvote and 31 downvotes, wondering if there is some insight that i'm missing as i don't see anything wrong with having the option for it.
But more to my question, unless you're a new player, Hell Mode is entirely superfluous. Meaning aside from Personal Liability it's the exact same mode, yet a feedback posted right after mine to add PL to Normal Mode has a bunch of upvotes, which further defeats the purpose of even having a Hell Mode to begin with. To make Hell Mode worth anything i don't think you can take away from Normal Mode either, because nobody likes that feeling. But i also don't know how to make it worthwhile.
This is it
There, sectioned it a bit.
frail crane
I'm reading through what you said again ^.^
pastel badge
frail crane
Alright, my thoughts:
I agree that Hell Mode, as is, isn't very appealing, especially because you can't change a save from normal to Hell, or the reverse.
Personally, I don't think the idea of permadeath fits the game. Gods don't die (obviously there are ways to get rid of them, but I don't think dying to a Lout would be that), and the overall game loop is about progressing between runs.
I upvoted the second feedback because I want to be able to play with Personal Liability, without needing to completely start over.
I would prefer that a different type of challenge be added to Hell Mode, and potentially a way to copy progress into Hell Mode
bronze viper
Approval Process Mode
trim sigil
Permadeath in a roguelike that wants you dead for a good hundred of runs (or at very least, the starting few) isn't quite an appealing concept
As for the alternatives... well, it really is hard to imagine some without also shoving them in PoP instead
bronze viper
Instead of 5 random pacts like there are now, just enforce AP2, remove AP from base game and give normal mode PL as well. EZPZ.
frail crane
5 random pacts?
pastel badge
Permadeath in a roguelike that wants you dead for a good hundred of runs (or at very least, the starting few) isn't quite an appealing concept
@trim sigil that's true, but i also don't think that should preclude the idea as i think it could be very fun, especially since it wouldn't be the main/normal game
frail crane
Ohh, I didn't realize Hell Mode was more than just PL
trim sigil
PL and forced JS1 CP1, indeed
pastel badge
Yeah, Hell Mode is pretty much just front-end difficulty, and only for new players really.
frail crane
Yeah, so I agree it definitely needs a change, but permadeath is just even more front-end difficulty, since there's no progression
bronze viper
Hell Mode is currently not an actually different experience, assuming you play at high enough heat. This way, we can give @mossy zinc the experience she wants, and the rest of us can actually enjoy 50+ heat 😛
pastel badge
Yeah, so I agree it definitely needs a change, but permadeath is just even more front-end difficulty, since there's no progression
@frail crane that's why i think permadeath would work as it's own separate mode, and why i suggested it only be unlocked after you beat the game maybe.
It's not more front-end though, since getting Skelly statues would not be easy.
frail crane
So something where you start with full mirror/weapon progression, but then have permadeath?
trim sigil
I do in fact wonder how many players can actually finish fresh file in first try
pastel badge
Yeah lol
So something where you start with full mirror/weapon progression, but then have permadeath?
@frail crane whatever works, i'm open to all ideas
trim sigil
No buffed blue laurel collectibles either
frail crane
Alright, that I could potentially get on board with
bronze viper
Yeah that's what I meant by buffs. No companion, or Patroclus/Athena DDs either
Or keepsakes
frail crane
Still not sure that permadeath is the way to go, though
trim sigil
Full progression sounds more reasonable, but most of the time that would be either used for running whatever, or savescammed
It's really for enthusiasts only
pastel badge
Definitely
I would consider people who go above 32 enthusiasts already
Yeah that's what I meant by buffs. No companion, or Patroclus/Athena DDs either
Or keepsakes
@bronze viper i do like this
For a Hell Mode that is actually different
frail crane
That's basically just a fresh save, no?
pastel badge
Except you'd never get them in that mode
I do think it's limiting, because there are people who start on Hell Mode that will never be able to get those really cool things and have no idea about what it's like to play with them.
It's an amazing sense of progression to have.
Anyway, i do like these armchair game design thought experiments. Hope it doesn't look cringe to actual game designers.
Perhaps permadeath would be better as a mod, if something like that is possible to create, not sure.
Could also be a self-imposed thing if there was a death counter that showed on save files.
That actually sounds like the best way to have a permadeath mode.
twin mist
i like the sound of that
frail crane
Nah, thought experiments are how game design starts :3 Can't fix everything with playtesting xD
pastel badge
Yeah, but i never studied any game design or whatever.
Don't know what it's like among those who have.
Probably much more sophisticated. I certainly couldn't make a game like Hades, and it's easier to critique than it is to create.
bronze viper
1 person didn't make the game
pastel badge
Most definitely
mossy zinc
Hell Mode is currently not an actually different experience, assuming you play at high enough heat.
Alone being unable to turn off HL1 JS1 CP1 makes a very big difference, and Personal Liability is a very big factor.
pastel badge
You eventually get so used to it that the difference becomes seemingly non existent. Statistically it's way different, but the way it feels doesn't really change. At least for me. Difficulty is about forced limitations, and you can do the same thing on normal mode as you can on Hell, save PL. Which isn't enough to me.
mossy zinc
Most (all?) of the 50+ clears had at least one moment that would have ended the run if Personal Liability had been active. Mine certainly did.
pastel badge
Definitely, it has a lot of value.
mossy zinc
54 was done without any points in CP, so that combo wouldn't have been possible in Hell mode.
pastel badge
But an entirely different mode, solely for PL, hardly qualifies for it's existence.
mossy zinc
There are quite a few aspects that really don't like JS or CP.
crystal iron
I still have no idea how does the mercy shield work. From my experience it seems to trigger when you lose a big chunk of health in a short amount of time (so it triggers more frequently with lower max hp)
mossy zinc
Something like 30% of your max HP in a certain amount of time.
It triggers off 16 damage at 50 max HP, which is 32%.
crystal iron
So my guess is mostly correct
mossy zinc
Yup! It doesn't trigger off 12 damage, so somewhere above 24% up to 32%.
trim sigil
25+%
glossy roost
hi if i jump to a higher heat than my current heat gauge, will i get all the prior bounties?
crystal iron
no, bounties go one heat level at a time. If your heat gauge is capped at 5 and you beat 7 heat, you will get the bounties for level 5.
glossy roost
okay
bronze viper
One of my least favorite things is losing 15 seconds in Elysium because of 3 waves of Popper shades slowwwwwlllllyyy dying
Though one of the saving graces of DC is that it protects you from wrecking yourself with Dying Lament if you kill a real shade in a pile of Popper shades lol.
twin mist
@urban crater watched your 57 heat run recently; super impressive! got pretty close there, too, damn.
i'm curious about the rng/pathing manipulation (?) you were doing, assuming i correctly understood what you're saying. is there a resource on all this?
urban crater
There is no resource really, sort of just handed down verbally. As of right now I think I'm actually the one who knows the most about it lol
There are a lot of us that talk about it in the Hades Speedrunning Discord though
Generally speaking making a route is incredibly arduous, especially one that doesn't have weird rng randomness thanks to certain mechanics
twin mist
ah nice, sounds interesting
if you don't mind explaining, how does any of it work? do you reverse engineer the seed or something?
proud jay
you figure out what actions call the rng function
then you try to call the rng function specific amount of times everywhere to get the result you want
the obvious ways to increment rng is casting or "summon unavailable" calls before entering a chamber
so in other news i just did a spontaneous 40 heat zag bow run just to see if i could finish it without a seed and in one go
playing without AP and a seed was so great. i just think that's the proper enjoyable high heat experience
sharp cobalt
The game is just a lot more fun without AP and restarting over and over for the 'optimal' run. To me anyway.
It might differ for other people, but I think that captures the fun of the game and the most varied gameplay best.
tidal flame
if you don't mind explaining, how does any of it work? do you reverse engineer the seed or something?
What Bablo said, but in layman terms, it's trial and error essentially.
Want Jolted second room but using cast twice in this room gives you High Voltage? Reload the room and try 3 casts. Still no dice? Do it again with 4 casts, etc. There are many ways to manipulate RNG but that's the gist of routing.
sharp cobalt
You can also do that fairly easily with rooms like Eurydice's room, if I remember right?
Since you can just quit out of it.
So you go in, fiddle with casts and change the results of her food to suit you.
(Really the game should save after talking to Eurydice)
proud jay
i think someone mentioned it doesn't work anymore in this patch
sharp cobalt
Fair enough. Though you can still pick a food option and switch if you're unhappy with it.
proud jay
yeah
it's not like gambling is always even worth it even if it hits what you want
so now im wondering if 40 heat streaks should be a thing
sharp cobalt
Anything can be a thing if people agree to it. It does sound like fun to me, though you might have to set rules.
For weapon rotations or something.
proud jay
rules aren't the problem, just wondering if it can be done consistently enough
sharp cobalt
Hmm... I think so! For good players. 40 is the level where I feel like you're starting to be forced to really compromise on your pact choices and take a few of the rougher combinations. But not too many of them.
proud jay
the problem is you're almost forced into TD2 on a lot of weapons, which is an issue in elysium and styx if you're unlucky
SD is kinda yikes if you get very bad chambers
im pretty sure i could streak like 5 of the better aspects at 40 heat
bronze viper
Agreed. The most fun I had with the game was yoloing all the weapons to 32. I still really enjoy high heat, but it's bogged down by stupid inconsistent mechanics that make the process more tedious than skill testing. Once you get over the knowledge threshold of AP2 there's only the slot machine grind. And I despise gambling.
proud jay
yeah with AP2 you're most of the time doomed because you don't get any tools that you need
bronze viper
And yet if I want to experience progression it's what I must do.
sharp cobalt
I guess if higher heat numbers in your permanent record counts as progression ,then yeah.
But you could also just play the game the way that is most fun for you.
Enjoy the video game :d
twin mist
oh, you don't actually figure out the seed, you just repeat the same run (through save files or giving up) with different pathings & rng triggers to get different results? that makes sense
tidal flame
correct. it's the same save. over. and over again. it's truly an arduous journey.
honest charm
Routing makes me feel trapped and powerless
Like Groundhog Day
You can do whatever you want with impunity, but nothing ever changes
nothing ever changes
it's bad 😢
proud jay
so i think that all weapons 40 heat streak is very doable actually
hardest one is probably fists, at least for me, followed by spear
urban crater
nothing ever changes
tell that to chaos
you can do the same thing exactly in some of his chambers and get different results 
did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
twin mist
so would you say visiting chaos introduces chaos into your rng?
honest charm
so anyways, what I do if I want to keep a seed is cast/summon randomly in front of the first few doors
makes me less suicidal
tidal flame
or channel your inner Link and break some pots
urban crater
pots will guarantee randomness
bronze viper
Is there a difference between pots broken during and after combat?
Because I imagine on Chaos aspect there is literally no controlling the former
urban crater
During combat does nothing since when you pick up the reward the RNG is reset
If you want to manipulate future rooms you have to do it after the doors unlock
Also Chaos aspect will 100% mess you up sometimes even after, first chamber is a good example of this. It will sometimes hit a pillar as you go through the door from a stray shield that was still bouncing around 
bronze viper
Oh that's good though, it makes combat about itself and not about rng manipulation.
bronze viper
I see you break clusters of urns too, is the rng function iterated per group or per individual urn.
urban crater
It used to be random per urn but now its 1 each urn
bronze viper
Oh, so when you break a cluster, it's because you know ahead of time that you need to break say, 5?
urban crater
Yes
I do want to clarify some chambers do weird stuff with it too btw, and avoid gemstone reward rooms like the plague since they can randomly increment RNG when you pick them up
And voicelines are chaotic and can end runs just because Zag wants to say "Nice!" 😂
It also takes a ton of time to route even without running into those issues
bronze viper
Lmao, that is Swampletics levels of dedication, I tip my hat to you.
urban crater
I don't recommend routing outside of going to herculean feats or perhaps to generate a specific run for a video to entertain people
I think the latter is an untapped reservoir for content creators
bronze viper
I mentioned Swampletics specifically. I agree with you. There is content to be created from this process.
proud jay
AP2 makes me want to route for 2 or 3 specific things
but idk if im ever touching AP again
bronze viper
As I mentioned before, I think the line should be "seed + route to room 3"but it's soo subjective
I'm working on 50/51 Rama and like... idk dude, I'm remembering the agony of sometimes 10 times in a row repeating because I do not get Drunken Flourish in room 3 after Relentless Volley and it's not a great memory.
urban crater
If you end up running the same seed enough you will at some point accidentally map out a route in your head of the paths traveled
proud jay
the problem is that seeded runs are kinda in the same category as completely routed ones, since it can't be proven you didn't route for anything
if you look at my 54 heat there's nothing extra rng-related going on, but i specifically went for epic jolted
proud jay
jolted scaling is nuts with rarity and poms
bronze viper
And knowing that the Demeter/Dio rooms offered in Room 2 will not yield Flourish means I can either cast at the door or restart the run. For my own sanity, if I know I'm likely to lose the run anyway, I'll just cast to make a small mental route anyway because F restarting again
proud jay
is relentless volley even necessary though
bronze viper
"yes"
proud jay
i know it's great to have
bronze viper
Very soft yes lol.
proud jay
but the actual limitation is damage against bosses
bronze viper
It makes differences of seconds, which matters a lot in Elysium. You don't have time to Special x2 + attack every time
proud jay
so you kinda just need a very strong hangover with poms or something else like billowing strength
bronze viper
No, my limitation has easily been damage against mobs in Elysium
proud jay
i see
bronze viper
or 3+ stack in Styx
proud jay
i feel like skelly does wonders for elysium normal encounters
just to group up archers and stuff
bronze viper
to make greatshields face the right way too
proud jay
yeah
bronze viper
oh, wow yeah that must be cray fast. I figured they could flip on a dime like Zag
mossy oar
they definitely have a turning speed
proud jay
but yeah kinda need to wait for them to start an animation at FO2
mossy oar
it's really really slow without FO
proud jay
i try to bait the charge
mossy oar
like batrider in dota speed
bronze viper
Oh for sure. I have no issues with them anymore on FO2, it's just extremely time consuming to kill packs of them
Especially if their animations are desynced and I'm playing melee
But @proud jay I stopped seed grinding because I got the perfect Volley one again, but I may try again for Explosive Shot, though my routing gripe comes up again because I will want Heartbreak or Deadly Strike in that case too. Or what I may do is take Dio in Tartarus anyway for Flourish and accept any attack boon
Just because Dio makes DC2 extremely smooth and deals with low health enemies like Casters very well
proud jay
do you think any sort of attack build is worth going for?
because there are speedrunners trying to think of fast strategies for rama and so far it looks like the absolute slowest aspect in the game
since dio is slow for speedruns and zeus sucks, they try out attack builds but they're all kinda terrible
i tried triple shot + explosive myself but even that was kinda underwhelming
bronze viper
I think Triple + Chain is faster than explosive
And no, Rama is winning no speed runs lol.
urban crater
Rama is not a fast bow
bronze viper
Yeah, Triple + Explosive usually implies that the Explosive radii will touch more than 2 enemies to beat Chain, but that's not really usually the case. Also Chain lets you play from a distance.
Triple + Explosive completely destroys bosses though
bronze viper
Hmm, I'll have to try it again at lower heat to test. I might be misremembering.
Part of the reason I'm forcing Dio atm is because it lets you have 2 damage sources
proud jay
dio is kinda the obvious choice for high heat
bronze viper
Which is great because Dio scales well with the early poms then you can work with base attack boons later
proud jay
any poms actually