Cloners are exclusive to Tartarus.
#h1-high-heat-strategies
mossy zinc
trim sigil
Just imagine
Cloner flame wheels
proud jay
imagine armored flame wheels
mossy zinc
You can just change a line in the code, and you won't have to imagine it. 
trim sigil
I don't want to be the one to bring doom on earth
mossy zinc
Under Earth.
trim sigil
inbetween earth
trim sigil
Not wrong, but with amount of heat we carry every place becomes hell
tidal flame
Hell in Hell?
trim sigil
Hellception
mossy zinc
high heat success is all about elysium and sack#
tartarus and asphodel are mostly about gathering resources and getting your important pieces of build together
Tartarus and Asphodel can be very hard. I think way more high heat runs end in those two regions than actually make it to Elysium or beyond.
Kn regards to strategy of course, the eye is on Elysium TD2.
But you can have a great build for Elysium DPS-wise and never even make it there because White Lernie didn't like your face.
Or Meg 360-no-scope-whips you out of nowhere when you were just dashing to avoid Tisiphone's assist.
Or a Speeder Lout gave you an anticlimactic early death in chamber 3 after you stepped on the spike trap that already took the other half of your health.
Vermin also like to bite you for 6 HP damage when you have exactly 6 HP.
trim sigil
Dang, hydra is kind of a roadblock now
Serrated point dashes are way too short to get out of smashes
Time to adjust strats
proud jay
super chariot summoned by Hades is giving me a lot of trouble lately
trim sigil
Butterfly bol is unironically chill
Or gigagorgon if you got divine dash
Chariot goes brrrrr
daring hedge
yeah, superelite chariot is absolutely my least favorite summon
skulls and voidstones though? super laid back
trim sigil
How about superelite strongbow
bronze viper
depends on build
if you can shred armor quickly ezpz
if you can't... lol, better hide
trim sigil
I mean, if armor shred ez then chariot free food as well
bronze viper
it is a thicc boy
proud jay
well i was running CP2 too
bronze viper
While you are shredding its armor it is up in your business
proud jay
it's rip acorn really fast
trim sigil
Just rip in general ngl
proud jay
well yeah the absolute rip happens soon after
trim sigil
"Precitipation of the rip"
proud jay
im never joining the 50 club at this rate (unless i switch to shield)
bronze viper
Trying with Zag bow?
proud jay
hestia atm
bronze viper
I'm taking a moderate break from Hades, then settling back into the grind. After 43 Nemesis I want to get 50 Rama.
proud jay
i want to do rama badly too, i'm just having problems figuring out where to get enough damage to finish the run
can't really count on getting that black out x)
although funny that, i actually had a 49 heat run once with black out, but 4 sack ripped it
bronze viper
Lmao, to be fair I had plenty of less blessed runs that ended because I died to badness, not because of lack of damage
I'm pretty convinced you need an attack boon and an attack hammer to finish, so there's a healthy bit of RNG involved.
proud jay
that's quite a bit if you ask me
assuming you start relentless volley
although i've found out it's not necessary
bronze viper
I may experiment with starting with Explosive Shot. It makes first 2 biomes really dicey but it should be a lot smoother after that
Cloner Savior is no longer a freeroll lol
daring hedge
45 GY run ended by 4sack and superelite chariot summon 
proud jay
oof
foggy ruin
My 40 heat Zeus run is taking a while but I'm enjoying re-learning the game. I can comfortably get through Tartarus so my next hurdle is Asphodel. Farthest I've reached so far is timing out in Elysium.
trim sigil
i have no idea why this time there were so many poms
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/546306968042602516/741501634366013591/Capture.PNG
foggy ruin
There's a lesson in here somewhere...
mossy zinc
static plover
is that lesson fish in lava for good times? 
frail crane
to be fair, you also should've taken the heart first so you healed more from the SD >:3 sorry I'm tired
mossy zinc
No.
mossy zinc
Well, you can't be blamed. You've only done low heat like 40 yet. 
frail crane
Mmhmm >:3
foggy ruin
robust zephyr
@foggy ruin I can strongly emphasise I had that happen to me once. The fishing spot was obscurred by the white bits of the lava and when I was trying to leave the chamber i dashed into lava and got stuck. Now i exclusively avoid all fishing spots even when i can see them out of bitter trauma .
foggy ruin
I legit didn't notice that I was over a fishing point, tunnel vision and whatnot.
I got impatient versus the champions ugh
trim sigil
Fishing while staying on lava sounds exactly like high heat strategy
mossy zinc
Extreme Measures 4: Tiny Vermin all grown up!
static plover
trim sigil
The true final boss is Cerberus
Just that no one wants to fight him
mossy zinc
π
static plover
Cerberus is bestest boi, no one could ever fight his adorableness 
ancient fiber
There's a lesson in here somewhere...
https://giphy.com/gifs/h1oGcDFbiYJuRMkd4E
@foggy ruin I am so used to river fishing. Oh! no...
sharp cobalt
mossy zinc
Normally, my times are more a bad 140+. I need to git gud. 
cyan stag
Finally got into demigod range with 168ms.
What worries me more is that the mental age test from the same site spat out 43.
cyan stag
Off by a third for me.
sharp cobalt
I'm going to just assume you're 60 π
cyan stag
My self-esteem was rebuilt by scoring 177 on the IQ test, but I guess this is getting off-topic now. (Honestly, this whole testing stuff already was long ago).
trim sigil
Hmm yes time to get smth like 45 age and 110 iq 
autumn sable
FYI, we have a robust enough list of recorded ultra high heat runs that I've been able to create split lists to categorize runs by weapons and their aspects. They can be found in the pinned document.
Shoutouts to @trim sigil @proud jay and @robust zephyr for being solo representatives of some (or several) weapon aspects.
trim sigil
proud jay
trim sigil
It might be pretty alone up here 
mossy zinc
That's okay. I'm an introvert. 
trim sigil
Fair point. Hmm..
cyan stag
The air is thin at the summit, is what I use to describe that.
wraith imp
Hi folks.
Quick question: is there something which lists all the abilities which comprise benefits package? i checked the codex and list of fated prophecies. there were no explanations given.
wraith imp
Perfect. Thank you @trim sigil.
mossy zinc
It's pinned in #h1-builds-and-combat, too, if you ever need to find it again.
proud jay
if only zeus wasn't so awkward to use
mossy zinc
I think it's just lack of interest from most people lol.
I'm interested in it, but I don't have the Titan Blood for it.
fading star
Oddly enough when I was doing 32 heat streak I was using Zeus shield a lot and found some really fun... aspects to it
Zeus shield with Zeus boon on special does a lot of damage and what I was finding a strong application was to drag enemies near a wall where I set my shield spinning (don't hit the wall because it will cause it to return to you) and then I could autoattack enemies into the wall who would get wall slammed on top of zotted with all the lightning from the spinning shield
Very fast clears that way
mossy zinc
Yay, I got my 1st place back! πΈπ½ π₯ https://twitter.com/nyaanyaamewmew/status/1292181731152474112
mossy zinc
I actually think the leaderboard is really useful for, like, gauging a specific strength of different high-heat players. It helps you put their runs into a different perspective when watching them to study how they play.
And it can give you yourself confidence or show you an area that you can potentially improve in if you focus more on practicing that.
mossy zinc
@proud jay you're working on 40, or you just did it?
proud jay
just streamed it
mossy zinc
Sick. Congrats!
proud jay
Zag spear special build did it
mossy zinc
Ranged weapons help so much.
proud jay
it's one of the safest ones out there so if you're able to get any other source of damage than your special boon, it's fast enough
tried to get a chaos special buff, didn't get it, hermes +30% special speed saved the run
that's with TD2
mossy zinc
Nice!
trim sigil
Wew, you beat me to it
Ah well, time to 41 
Either way I want to finish one strategy that yall will certainly love and not call me casul for
proud jay
Wew, you beat me to it
@trim sigil may i ask what kinda setup you were doing?
mossy zinc
I'll have far less time for these runs now because school starts again on Monday.
trim sigil
may i ask what kinda setup you were doing?
sadly, if i disclose it the element of surprise will be lost, but I can say I try a bow
Though I still have no idea why I try to revive dead chiron
fossil reef
I swear to god I didn't cheat: http://puu.sh/GfPlA/3cd358ebcf.png
I did, in fact, spend two hours trying to get this though
tidal flame
jesus h christ
tidal flame
I should make a click bot to beat all of yo xD
fossil reef
π
mossy zinc
Well, I just found out that that site multiplies your actual result by 0.8 to make it appear lower. π https://twitter.com/dat_kyhz/status/1290147429413609472 https://twitter.com/Elite_Soba/status/1290144904874622977
fossil reef
lol
mossy zinc
lol no that's definitely just to make you wanna share it to drive clicks.
fossil reef
Well, hey, if the penalty is applied universally, it's STILL technically an accurate way to gather comparison data π
mossy zinc
That's true, yes.
proud jay
40+ heat list is finally complete as i just finished a zeus run
trim sigil
Gaming
topaz walrus
no
urban crater
@honest kernel got to T&M on 57 heat, there will be a true max heat run soon
robust zephyr
https://streamable.com/uiwhkf Dont you just love it when this happens
proud jay
archers are the worst
trim sigil
Aight, so I guess I'd give up on RI4 42 chiron as well. Can't handle any recent projects for some reason
But also, time to show the world a somewhat relevant secret
proud jay
i have no idea why you would choose chiron
trim sigil
To stay away from foes, ig
But yeah, maybe just sticking to nemesis would have been better
proud jay
hades is a big obstacle in the run imo
i might just be bad against him idk
well im thinking of trying hestia for 40+ RI4
proud jay
stubborn roots would do it if it actually heals
hollow lynx
i think roots only appears if you have a defiance trait on, so no go
proud jay
then we just need ridiculous routing for chaos dd into stubborn roots
proud jay
i actually started with cosmic egg
hollow lynx
ah fair, forgot about egg
now you just need a seed with two chaos gates, athena, and demeter
proud jay
is chaos dd tier 2?
hollow lynx
you need to have at least 1 chaos boon before it can appear
proud jay
no wonder it's so rare then, never realised
trim sigil
then we just need ridiculous routing for chaos dd into stubborn roots
@proud jay mah dude, i just posted the image that has stubborn roots without chaos
proud jay
so does it actually regen
proud jay
right, tooth
trim sigil
With athena and supposedly kiss of styx too
trim sigil
Sadly I don't have 100% proof for the latter, but kiss spawned in well when I had empty tooth
proud jay
Lol
trim sigil
Athena definitely can replenish it, I got one from deathless stand
proud jay
do you have to die with tooth to leave empty slot?
trim sigil
Yea
(well, no idea if it's required for stubborn roots to appear to have an empty slot. probably not)
proud jay
tooth is big brain strats anyway
trim sigil
Ideally it's a switch into roots + acorn regardless I'd imagine
But tooth is a great stepping stone for that strat
definitely more reliable than t2 chaos lmao
tidal flame
who brought Zeus shield to the light?
mossy zinc
bablo.
tidal flame
I should not be surprise I guess
daring hedge
well, just had a really weird, wild ride with a 51 hades aspect attempt: no attack boon until the elysium midshop and it's common dio attack
spent an entire minute in TD overtime with the champs, somehow didn't lose there
got 2sack but hades summoned superelite butterfly ball
acorn got destroyed and well. i died
mossy zinc
In the words of Scooter from Borderlands and probably Hypnos: try not to die!
daring hedge
i tried!! very hard!
daring hedge
you say this while sitting in your perfectly balanced charged throw beo chair
mossy zinc
Superior strategy.
daring hedge
clearly i have not strategized hard enough to stop using spear and start tossing my chunk shield
mossy zinc
Clearly. πΈπ½
daring hedge
[shakes fist varatha]
proud jay
spent an entire minute in TD overtime with the champs, somehow didn't lose there
@daring hedge i've had this experience too, in fact it was probably the 54 heat shield run
daring hedge
lol, was it also mostly just a lot of max health and pat kiss of styx for you too?
keeping you alive through that, i mean
mossy zinc
60 seconds of TD damage is 300 HP.
proud jay
61 seconds overtime
daring hedge
oh wow, two athena DDs on top of SD is extremely swanky
dunno if i've been lucky enough to net that with AP2
proud jay
i had it once with chaos + athena
and managed to lose that run somehow
was probably something AP1 though
cyan stag
Do Athena boons that give back DD even do anything when going mirrorless/RI4?
I got them offered, but didnβt dare to experiment.
mossy zinc
They can only show up if you have a slot for DD from Lucky Tooth or Master Chaos's Legendary.
If you used up the DD from either of those two, her boons can replenish the DD.
cyan stag
So if I unequip the Lucky Tooth, I would also lose the boon utility?
mossy zinc
If you unequip it after replenishing it?
You should keep the new DD that you got from Lady Athena.
sharp cobalt
Are you absolutely sure about that Nyaanyaa?
I feel like I get those boons all the time, even when I'm at 3 full respawns.
mossy zinc
If you have 3 DDs, you have 3 DD slots.
You don't need an empty slot. You just need to actually have a DD slot.
sharp cobalt
Oh I see.
urban crater
Going to make some runs on 57 heat tomorrow probably, will post here when the deed is done
prime cairn
Hey man, you produce a legit video of the run and I'll verify it
wraith imp
A friend's 51 heat zeus shield run (ares attack, athena special, athena dash, zeus call, merciful end build) died to 4 sack in styx tonight.
He was able to take hades past midway point of phase 2 before tight deadline screwed him. He probably needed another 15-20 seconds or so.
He is...uh...justifiably salty.
wraith imp
Yep. In the few 40+ heat runs I've completed, I've never had one with TD2. I just can't concentrate because I feel rushed and end up making more errors which is lethal with (near) max hard labor and/or heightened security.
mossy zinc
Just pause the game to think when you need to.
wraith imp
Oh. Strange how that never occurred to me. (It's probably because I develop tunnel vision.)
Speaking of TD2, I keep forgetting to ask this but now that I've remembered...
@ For those that use nemesis aspect on sword for increased crit chance (usually with artemis dash strike), are you playing with mouse and keyboard?
If so, (in settings) are you using the "dash at cursor" option turned on?
Supposedly, that's what many others are doing. I had been trying to control dash direction with keyboard and sword aim with mouse and it was challenging...
proud jay
apparently mouse is what you're supposed to use if you want to kite while attacking with blade
mossy zinc
I thought Blade Dash is what you're supposed to use if you want to kite while attacking.
proud jay
tbh i shouldn't contribute to this since i play with controller and haven't studied the blade
mossy zinc
The correct answer is use the one that works better for you.
wraith imp
@proud jay @mossy zinc
Perhaps I didn't ask my question well. Or maybe I'm not familiar with lingo.
I'll try again.
As far as I can tell, the "dash at cursor" option kinda simplifies/streamlines control of zag (re: which direction he's facing) on m & kb.
I found that to be much easier to use with nemesis aspect.
Apparently, I had been unwittingly using the harder option (on m & kb) by not switching from default option to "dash at cursor"
/I do want to try out hades on a controller at some point for all the aspects especially on high heat runs.
blazing ocean
I never remember the names of these abilities
mossy zinc
Well. Or of it's working for you, then just do that.
blazing ocean
Hi @mossy zinc
proud jay
controller works for most stuff, but keyboard and mouse allows you to dash away from enemies while striking at them, which is really difficult to do on controller
mossy zinc
blazing ocean
Sometimes you dash the wrong way on controller
Because you think you're pointing in one direction but actually it's not
proud jay
i don't think i've had that problem
wraith imp
controller works for most stuff, but keyboard and mouse allows you to dash away from enemies while striking at them, which is really difficult to do on controller
@proud jay yes, exactly.
i very much value being able to dash in any direction in-among sequences of executing excalibur's 3-tier attack combo in an opposite direction. it's super useful for avoiding damage while doing the slow combo.
But that might not be ideal for nemesis aspect where "dash at cursor" seems more useful on m&b.
I was just curious if other players had tried both controller and m&kb and if they used "dash at cursor" to optimize nemesis-dashstrikeartemis build on m&kb.
proud jay
i have a feeling most players stick to what they're most comfortable on; for me that's controller
if i were to go all out on high heat melee builds i'd probably need to start using mouse
wraith imp
yep, (slightly reckless) melee is my preferred style and i have trouble seeing myself doing well on high heat with controller.
blazing ocean
I love playing fists but it seems to be the only weapon that brings me close to actual death in my runs. And not even at high heat yet
mossy zinc
I think pad is perfectly fine for melee on high heat.
blazing ocean
Just gradually progressing in heat atm
mossy zinc
Practice matters way more than what controls you use.
wraith imp
I think pad is perfectly fine for melee on high heat.
@mossy zinc like you said, people will be partial to what they're comfortable with. but i'll give it a go with controller at some point. perhaps i'll surprise myself.
trim sigil
Personally I don't use dash at cursor because preferring to have separate controls for dashes and attacks
Although, 360 dash on kbm sounds pretty tempting
mossy zinc
360 no-scope Dash-Strike?
blazing ocean
Lul
blazing ocean
There's Exagryph
wraith imp
I love playing fists but it seems to be the only weapon that brings me close to actual death in my runs. And not even at high heat yet
@blazing ocean you're not alone.
shield, sword, gun? i'm good.
the other 3? i'm terrible.
i struggle with switching mentality to mentality on different aspects and evolving builds.
Sometimes, playing melee (based on boons i'm getting) just isn't smart. And yet I can't help myself...like a moth to a flame...
trim sigil
I only can play swords reliably (sometimes spears). Everything else is death
blazing ocean
I generally think it isn't so much of an issue until you gotta go fast
mossy zinc
@blazing ocean I think you'll do pretty good once you get to higher heats, by the way. You just need more practice in the boss fights and more experience with and knowledge about builds.
Especially vs Hades.
blazing ocean
Yeah I'm still experimenting and unlocking boons
Seriously what's with that golden pair
wraith imp
I generally think it isn't so much of an issue until you gotta go fast
@blazing ocean maybe i should turn off forced overtime 2 and turn on tight deadllne 2. (i usually play with td1+2 turned off.)
mossy zinc
@wraith imp what heat are you trying?
wraith imp
On fists? Anything above 24...
trim sigil
Nothing special iirc. Only theseus poking fun at you with 50 dmg bombs with wrong warning zones 
also depleting acorn with machineguns
mossy zinc
I'd just turn on both tbh.
wraith imp
Really? Why?
blazing ocean
The funny part is, the slowest weapons clear rooms the fastest for me because of their pure damage output
trim sigil
FO2 usually helps with TD2 as enemies spawn and reach you faster
blazing ocean
@trim sigil I just chase his tail
I shudder to think how I'll deal with Asterius with fists
sharp cobalt
Punch his butt.
mossy zinc
I just don't have a problem with TD2 at all with Malphon, and FO2 because, well, I'm pretty confident in my reactions.
blazing ocean
While needing to worry with Theseus cackling in his golden rambo outfit
mossy zinc
I'm just saying what I would do.
What I would not turn on is EM3.
That fight is really bad with Malphon.
EM2 is fine.
wraith imp
<Hmmm>
Which aspect of fist do you normally use?
(Yeah, lol. I avoid EM3 like a plague on fists, bow, spear.)
blazing ocean
Spear with whatever aspect @mossy zinc saw me use is fine with ample control I think
mossy zinc
Talos is kinda lacking DPS compared to those two unless you have good RNG with boons.
blazing ocean
Well, not if there's a time limit
blazing ocean
Skewer's the special or the spin attack?
trim sigil
Special
mossy zinc
Even without it, you shouldn't have a problem with speed unless you go for a spin build with Divine Strike.
blazing ocean
Yeah it's the spin and normal attacks that are slow
I think it makes the fight really drawn out
wraith imp
I think all the spears are fine with EM3. And TD2.
@mossy zinc I think you are severely underestimating how slow, goofy, and dumb I am with spear. π
"A weapon/controller is only as effective as the person wielding it." - Sun Tzu, probably, in 2020,
after witnessing me ruin amazing builds on 15-20 heat that most players would beg for on high heat
mossy zinc
Nope.
I said the spear was fine.
The implication is if you don't make it, it's your fault.
blazing ocean
I think it makes the fight really drawn out
A battle of endurance while trying not to get wrecked by 50 damage nukes
wraith imp
lol, f me
blazing ocean
wraith imp
i just got nuked
mossy zinc
π
blazing ocean
Fist in that fight is probably going to be a battle of endurance while trying not to get nuked, run over, and smashed
I'll...let you guys know when I get to it
blazing ocean
The bullets can't get deflected?
mossy zinc
They just take no damage from anything you deflect.
blazing ocean
Oh
wraith imp
Would be a much easier fight if those two took damage from Deflects.
@mossy zinc WAIT. WAT.
blazing ocean
What...
wraith imp
Oh my...
mossy zinc
wraith imp
I tend to use athena builds on fists. WAT.
blazing ocean
How is their battle harder than EM Sisters and Snek combined?
At least you don't take damage 
wraith imp
If this is true...no wonder my dps feels absurdly weak (on athena fist builds) against theseus and minotaur.
trim sigil
EM sisters 90% of the time is free walk tbh
The worst offender is tisiphone carpet bombing
blazing ocean
I've been rather reckless with them lately
trim sigil
Hydra's new arena on EM is smelly but ig with skelly it can be resolved a bit
EM Heroes is hit or miss
wraith imp
Wait...was deflect not doing any damage to theseus&minotaur always the case?
i used to beat them with athena on sword special before instantaneous special and supernova was nerfed
then what was causing damage?
mossy zinc
I've only played since Steam launch.
blazing ocean
Deflect does with on them normally I believe
I've successfully deflected his spear and I think it did do damage
wraith imp
yeah, later today i'm gonna fire up some fist runs specifically geared toward athena just to pay attention to this.
i also recall instances of deflect damage on recent updates but maybe it was caused by something else or combos of multiple attacks since action is happening kind of quickly.
mossy zinc
Maybe there's like 1 or 2 specific attacks from them they take deflect damage from.
But, like, Asterius's axe swings or when he jumps at you and slams the axe, if you deflect those, he'll take no damage from the deflection.
wraith imp
ok, agree on both just based on experience. i can't deny that i struggle a lot with athena fist builds against them so there's something to that.
mossy zinc
Yeah, you kinda need Deadly Reversal + Support Fire if you're running Divine Strike, or you'll just time out.
wraith imp
that said...can hades' spin attacks be negated/deflected by athena deflect on fist attacks?
i've never been able to tell. (i don't have a recording setup to go back rewatch my runs. hope to have that in a few months.)
i've been able to deflect using dash but i can't recall instances with attack or special. projectiles? yes. but not on his spin attack.
blazing ocean
I don't really dig Athena fist builds only because I think there's too little AOE to reliably deflect anything
mossy zinc
His spin attack can't be deflected.
wraith imp
perhaps i'm recalling instances from prior updates.
mossy zinc
Literally undeflectable.
mossy zinc
Yeah, I remember you used to be able to deflect his spin for a truckload of damage.
wraith imp
Yeah, that's what i'm thinking of. Hence, i used to take athena keepsake in asphodel almost always just to get her dash.
mossy zinc
I think you can deflect just fine with Malphon's attack.
I always start with the Owl Pendant with Malphon.
wraith imp
wait...i'm now confused. you can deflect his spin attack with malphon-athena attack?
mossy zinc
No.
mossy zinc
I don't really dig Athena fist builds only because I think there's too little AOE to reliably deflect anything
I was replying to that.
wraith imp
got it.
mossy zinc
Why is it like 500 degrees outside.
blazing ocean
I think you can deflect just fine with Malphon's attack.
Ah yeah but I'll definitely prefer other boons than Athena's when using fists
mossy zinc
I take Divine Strike like 99% on Malphon lol.
proud jay
when i play malphon all i want is athena
mossy zinc
I took it on 42 when that was WR, and I'd still take it on 50+.
blazing ocean
Then see all the projectiles magically fly back to their casters
proud jay
tbh i wouldn't mind only athena for a lot of weapons at high heat...
mossy zinc
Wait. 41.
Anyway lol.
Yeah lol.
Throw in one boon from Lady Artemis for deadly Reversal, ideally.
blazing ocean
There's always a use for everything
mossy zinc
lol I was just spamming Dash-Strikes with Chiron while you were trying to make the Special work, I think.
Sad fact about Chiron is just spamming Dash-Strikes is usually faster.
It's just Zag bow without crit chance.
proud jay
it's been well established that chiron special is dead
mossy zinc
I mean.
proud jay
sadly i think hera is kinda like that too, except maybe slightly better than chiron
mossy zinc
I used it a couple times when an enemy had like 1 HP left and was hiding behind cover or something.
So it's like, not entirely useless?
I know a lot of people have a lot of fun with it, though.
proud jay
apparently yeah
just make the animation slightly faster and give it the charged special option
proud jay
dionysus worked the best for me lol
it works for any fast weapon though so that's not saying much
blazing ocean
Yeah lol
sharp cobalt
Demeter works really well with Chiron special.
What's the highest heat done with Chiron? I can try to break it, and prove my point~
proud jay
i did 42
sharp cobalt
I think I can work with that...
proud jay
if i were to go any higher i'd just do normal attack build
sharp cobalt
It'll hurt, but I think it's workable.
proud jay
mostly because it would be easier and better
mossy zinc
Volley base damage needs to be higher.
sharp cobalt
Oh I'm not saying it doesn't need a buff. It probably does.
But I think it's workable for sure.
trim sigil
Or it should at least keep 9 arrows instead of reducing to 7
Because even with relentless the damage stays rather underwhelming
(and getting both relentless and concentrated? reliable strats β’οΈ)
The only time I was satisfied with dmg was heartbreak strike, deadly flourish, heart rend, relentless+concentrated volleys and chaos special dmg
Which is a tad lot of setup ngl
bronze viper
It could deal twice as much damage and it would still feel bad. The animation is just atrocious and it can only be used 2 or 3 times per attack, depending on how much dodging is necessary.
Not that that matters at present since in practice you only use the attack in chaotic encounters
Oh I'm not saying it doesn't need a buff. It probably does.
@sharp cobalt I tried 43 with special for a while. The issue you start running into is the tradeoff for things like JS and CP, which Chiron despises, and TD2, which prevents you from really utilizing the advantage Chiron has with playing keep away and chipping things to death. You could take Twin Shot to offset the TD constraint but that also minimizes the range advantage Chiron has. While you're in Twin Shot range it makes more sense to continue using Twin Shot instead of backing off to the point where it would safe to fire off a special.
Using Dio special helps minimize this issue but it is truly painful to poison one thing at a time, with an attack, then a special. It makes JS a total nightmare, and Dio is already constrained enough with TD2. So what you will end up doing is looking for Aphro or Ares on your attacks to supplement the damage, at which point you'll run into rooms where it no longer makes sense to use the special (e.g. Flamewheels, Speeder rooms)... So you often just stop using it, and use your attack only instead.
Every issue I've found resolves to the same conclusion. There are extremely few situations at the highest difficulty where the special makes sense to use.
trim sigil
The only redeeming quality is being able to deal with DC2 (and even then, you waste first shot's highest damage)
bronze viper
DC2 rears its ugly head in Styx tiny rat rooms.
trim sigil
shh
nobody gets that far, they don't need to know
Speaking of styx, I have mildly compared the setups and miniboss rooms are indeed easier than regular, at least on high JS
somehow
sharp cobalt
Except for the tiny vermin.
trim sigil
Tiny vermin was explicitly designed to be a middle finger, so makes sense
mossy zinc
Like Chiron.
daring hedge
Read through some earlier discussion on high heat melee with controller, and yeah honestly I think it's perfectly fine. I use pretty much exclusively controller with Hades
Dashing away while following up with a backwards facing dash-strike isn't very difficult to do with it imo
And I do that quite a lot myself
stuck ridge
does chaos's defiance apply before or after stubborn defiance?
i found it early and i think it will just be a waste if i take it, but im not sure
i couldnt find anything online
trim sigil
Mmm, usually SD takes priority in order, but can't tell for sure for chaos one
stuck ridge
i ended up not taking it, but i think new defiances always show up on the right of the queue (first) whether they are replenished or extra
i want to plan a run where i get a ton of chaos like maimed strike or hazard bomb, so i can lose a stubborn defiance in chaos's room and then get that boon and see if it is to the left of the queue because SD was used up
foggy ruin
I tried getting the Chaos DD boon with SD once, when it activated it showed to the left of my non-used SD after clearing the required number of encounters.
undone raptor
I had chaos dd yesterday it's used after you already lose your sd
mossy zinc
Is it 54 Heat?
proud jay
trim sigil
mossy zinc
Figures that y'all do records now that I'm back in school and can't play.
proud jay
well my studies continue in september too
mossy zinc
I don't know if I have the energy now to do 50 Heat with Malphon like I'd planned, but at least I got Talos to 45 before school started.
mossy zinc
Although, it ended up just being Merciful End from right before Theseus and Asterius to the end lol.
proud jay
still it's all melee
trim sigil
Nemesis is also all melee. yet..
proud jay
chaos is kind of a freeroll if you get enough damage from boons and extra dash or movement speed
mossy zinc
I had a lot of good 50-heat attempts with Zag Aspect end at Lernie lol.
I dunno. I'm not good with Chaos Aspect lol.
@trim sigil yet?
trim sigil
yet
Well, it seems like it has more potential than fists despite being all melee
whatever
mossy zinc
Well, Nemesis has more range and free crits.
proud jay
damage becomes a huge issue for 50+, which nemesis has
although i still think nemesis 50+ runs are incredibly hard
trim sigil
Have to be dashing all around enemies, so you either go full yolo with hunter dash or sacrifice damage for divine dash, some safety
DC2 and RI3 are an issue too
proud jay
i actually noticed that. quite clever
mossy zinc
I just used the same setup that I'd been trying at 50 Heat with Zag Aspect but with HL0. So I felt pretty confident going in.
autumn sable
Theyβre both difficult melee weapons for different reasons. Nemesis has way more damage but it requires a little more commitment to keep up free crit, making it not as safe. Fists can pace dashes and have them saved as necessary but lose in damage.
mossy zinc
If things killing you is a problem, lowering HL helps with that.
proud jay
helps especially against hades (which has been a huge problem for me lately)
autumn sable
Merciful end being a nice stop gap to bridge though
mossy zinc
Merciful End helped a ton vs Tiny Vermin lol.
I played pretty bad vs Hades, though. Overconfidence.
trim sigil
If only there was a way to route for ME, that would have been an opener to like 55 heat already
mossy zinc
I definitely noticed I'm a lot worse vs Hades than I was when I grinded the fight for hours every day before trying 52 Heat.
Nothing stopping you from doing that lol.
proud jay
i've lost a bunch of 50+ runs to hades
autumn sable
Yeah, there is a way, someone just has to actually do it
trim sigil
Not understanding routing and not willing to spend hours on seeds does
proud jay
but in my defense i do feel like single dash makes it quite a lot harder
mossy zinc
Well, you don't need to defend losing to Hades on 50+.
Most wouldn't even make it that far.
Tbh most of my 50+ attempts end in Tartarus or Asphodel lol.
proud jay
If only there was a way to route for ME, that would have been an opener to like 55 heat already
@trim sigil zeus+jolted can do 55 heat but it's not gonna be easy
trim sigil
This sounds like chaos shield exclusive
proud jay
yeah survival-wise
trim sigil
I'm more of sword fan, that's why ME is so obsessive thought
A force enough to carry zag sword
Likely nemesis is still better since it can hold the ground itself for damage, but dash/MS buffs are coming in handy when the killing setup is ready
Now, the real bruh strat. Rama special + ME
bronze viper
Lmao, it's not THAT fast
mossy zinc
Someone should sponsor me and buy me AC, so I can do 50+ again.
bronze viper
AC?
proud jay
air conditioning?
mossy zinc
Yes.
bronze viper
I assume it's something in that neighborhood lol
mossy zinc
No, but 90+ is too hot for me. Stupid heat wave.
tidal flame
meg
daring hedge
there's actually a pretty wide spread, but some popular ones at very high heat include batty, rib, fidi, antos
it's pretty flexible depending on what you want to shore up
shady gets less popular the higher you go, mostly because of LC
tidal flame
well, what Tail said for general usage, for personal choice, Meg.
trim sigil
I constantly see meg and skelly used
One to burst some fights, another to create safe breather
somber leaf
I don't know if have LC in me haha
daring hedge
LC is super avoidable at 32 if you're just gunning for that now
i think i used shady in at least some of my 32s a while back
tidal flame
yeah at 32 I would argue go for at max LC1, or no LC
Shady is still good at 32, even with LC1
trim sigil
Tbh if you can run with SD, doing LC2 aint too bad
mossy zinc
LC4 + SD works better for some people at 32.
trim sigil
or lc4 for max memes, indeed
daring hedge
stubborn defiance
somber leaf
ahh was abotu to look it up, thanks π
daring hedge
lol
somber leaf
I think I suck too much at Hades for SD haha
mossy zinc
Not really memes. Some people struggle more with chambers than bosses, and LC4 is 4 heat that you can take off other things.
somber leaf
do people recommend FO2?
mossy zinc
I'd recommend FO2 if you're comfortable with FO2.
daring hedge
the main difficulty that comes with SD are the bosses, yeah. regular rooms can be a breeze, but you kind of have to be familiar with the bosses EM or otherwise with SD
especially with HL, FO active, etc.
mossy zinc
My choice for companion depends a lot on what aspect I'm using.
trim sigil
6 somewhat free(???) heat, also a core experience so if you are able to withstand it, better use it
somber leaf
I'm not comfortable with Fo2 yet, but the question is should I become it π
daring hedge
yes!
somber leaf
oh? want to give a basic rundown?
daring hedge
you'll be surprised with how fast you can acclimate to FO2 speed, i think
somber leaf
I find outside Hades, FO2 isn't so bad
trim sigil
Everything attacks faster. React faster.
daring hedge
it's not as bad as you think, if you just spend time playing with it on
somber leaf
I've done 3 runs with it, one Hades death, two Hades lots of DD lost haha
trim sigil
I actually think first run with FO2 for me went as far as styx
It's a bit shocking experience but you may compensate rather quickly for how scary it sounds
mossy zinc
FO2 success depends a lot on reaction time tbh.
Not exclusively, but it's a big factor.
daring hedge
anticipating attack patterns alleviates FO2 difficulties a lot, too. basically buffering your strategy in your head according to what an enemy or boss is going to do
hades himself is pretty easy to predict in this sense
mossy zinc
Other important factors are positioning and actually knowing what enemy actions telegraph what moves and how to deal with that.
trim sigil
Also a lot of enemies get so quick attack reactions that it's easier to dash behind their back to trigger them
You'd end up right in their downtime
daring hedge
yeah, greatshields are a perfect example of that
mossy zinc
Like, if you don't know to look for that little hop from Inferno-Bombers that they do before throwing the triple-bombs, good reaction speed won't save you from that.
daring hedge
you pretty much constantly bait out their forward lunge while dashing behind
tidal flame
yeah, greatshields are a perfect example of that
Greatshields have a really dirty move. They dash forward then stop for a bit which makes you think it's a window to attack. Then they do the spin and hit you.
mossy zinc
If you don't know what to look for, things will just seem random and impossible to react to.
Greatshields will flash white before they attack.
daring hedge
huh, are you sure that isn't a delayed version of the same forward lunge attack, fox?
mossy zinc
And the dash forward is basically a shield bash that's also an attack.
Shield bash > spin.
Is the attack.
daring hedge
like, tisiphone can do a similar thing with holding her slash dash to get you
seems almost random when she'll decide to buffer it, but it happens sometimes
somber leaf
My reaction time isnβt amazing, I expect. A bit more of a strategizer than a react-er
tidal flame
where is that reaction time link
tidal flame
@mossy zinc
somber leaf
Yeah, I know the enemies pretty well-ish but Iβm sure Iβm missing a ton of cues. Slam dancers for example
trim sigil
Hmm yes measuring FO compatibility
daring hedge
slam dancers just try to get close and dive bomb, pretty simple. but if you interrupt their dive, they will continually try to do it until it finishes
regardless of whether you're still next to them
somber leaf
I only just noticed their slam**
trim sigil
Important to note that no armored enemies can get their patterns staggered, so slam dancers end up p evil
mossy zinc
huh, are you sure that isn't a delayed version of the same forward lunge attack, fox?
Greatshields only have 2 moves, and Elite Greatshields have slightly buffed versions of those 2 moves instead.
daring hedge
hey, quote foxhope not me lol
mossy zinc
Probably expecting a non-elite lunge from elites or vice versa.
daring hedge
i'm saying i don't think they do have any more moves that i wouldn't know about yeah
tidal flame
yeah probably the same
mossy zinc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12_2L5sZGreuR-1MElSpPiVK6893SIq_oXp8AelLVvco/edit?usp=sharing
daring hedge
i would like to figure out what causes certain foes or bosses to "hold" their windup at times, though. like the aforementioned tisiphone example
it's fairly rare, but i'm not sure if certain attacks or spacing causes it to happen
trim sigil
Probably spacing
Well, that also depends on attacks ofc
Asterius can bull rush from any point, but some attacks are more close ranged
mossy zinc
I'm not sure what you mean about Tisiphone.
proud jay
i think tisiphone rotates a little bit to your position
when she's charging the stun. i assume that's what people are talking about
daring hedge
i'll clip an example of what i mean
i have it happening pretty clearly in a recent recording
proud jay
i only recently caught my first voidskate
daring hedge
all i can ever catch are voidskates
proud jay
and so far it's the only one i've gotten
daring hedge
i've caught 3 or 4 and none of the others
proud jay
man it's always projelly for me
bronze viper
projelly here too, though i've gotten a voidskate before
trim sigil
Projelly perfect catch for me as well
daring hedge
here's what i mean with tisi holding her stun for an abnormally long period (on FO2, of course) https://streamable.com/sy4b5v
mossy zinc
I need 1 more Projelly for the codex entry to be complete? next entry? I dunno how many entries there are. I feel like I've only caught one lol.
Voidskate entry is done.
And the super mega ultra rare fabled legendary "Undiscovered" above that, I've yet to see at all.
daring hedge
the pressure of slowing reaction time for a chaos fish
cyan stag
Just count to 0,4 seconds before pushing. Easy.
mossy zinc
Will try. Thanks.
somber leaf
236 ms
proud jay
i got about that too
somber leaf
slow in my old age? π
mossy zinc
@somber leaf congratulations on 15th place!
somber leaf
β€οΈ
mossy zinc
@proud jay I'll need an exact time to put you on the leaderboard.
daring hedge
bablo no don't encourage her
bronze viper
lmao, the old link just arbitrarily multiplied the results by 0.8?
trim sigil
For mild clarification, did you do the test on pc or mobile?
trim sigil
paul ofc
mossy zinc
A lot of people did the test.
"For mild clarification, let me ask something ambiguous."
trim sigil
I mean, he was the latest participant, so it was only logical that the question addresses there
mossy zinc
If that's what you want to believe.
daring hedge
everyone, we have to get back to relevant high heat strategy discussion, like how best to die in elysium
trim sigil
The only ambiguity there is that "you" doesn't allow for pointing whether a single or multiple persons are addressed
proud jay
i prefer the endless stream of armored flame wheels when running RI3 and hermes hasn't blessed you with extra dashes
trim sigil
But yeah brb lemme die from elite strongbows first
daring hedge
love losing an entire run to those
mossy zinc
Have you tried not dying to them?
proud jay
though that's what i like to save for hades
trim sigil
observation: having SD on basically turns the game into Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
Perfectly fine to die once per room
daring hedge
sculptor's idol after every chamber
proud jay
RI4 runs were a nice change to that
mossy zinc
Lately, I'm way more interested in finding strategies for difficult BP combos than complaining.
RI4 is fun.
daring hedge
i mean, we're more so making fun of how lethal some variants are, instead of outright complaining
it's all in good fun strategy
trim sigil
If i were to genuinely complain, the first step would have been #hades-feedback 
So yeah, mostly just memes and giggles
and salt unload
bronze viper
Neat, did a lot better by holding my mouse like a gamepad and using my right thumb lol
mossy zinc
Of course, sub-52 players would describe such easy combos as "lethal".
daring hedge
you mean 50+ heat players who don't have to use shield
mossy zinc
It's called strategy.
trim sigil
We need to observe hard combos then, will you enlighten us?
proud jay
im hearing more elitist remarks than actual strategies
daring hedge
hypnos gives really effective high heat strategies
sometimes i remember that i wasn't supposed to die
mossy zinc
There are no hard combosβonly players that are too weak. :princess_tone3:
tidal flame
in the end of the day, Hades is just a very long combo with complicated timing.
mossy zinc
@bronze viper that one is from humanbenchmark? I'll update it.
bronze viper
ya
mossy zinc
In the morning, though. I'm already in bed. Too much of a hassle from my phone.
bronze viper
lol, no worries
mossy zinc
Hypnos really helped me when he said to try not just standing there when the bloodless throw bombs at me.
bronze viper
"Bloodless" seems like not the most useful naming convention to have in the underworld
mossy zinc
Tell Greg.
daring hedge
so true. you simply must assume they detect you based on movement, of course. disappointing that standing completely still doesn't fool them π
glad hypnos could set me straight
odd tartan
trim sigil
Bloodless excludes zagreus, hades, and megaera from the list at very least
Seems like good enough specification
proud jay
i still don't know what bloodless refers to
trim sigil
Skeletons, iirc
daring hedge
skeletons basically
bronze viper
Dad makes fun of you a lot for having blood. I thought he was also amongst the (very populated) Bloodless group
mossy zinc
Ironically, standing still lets you very effectively avoid damage from Asterius.
proud jay
all of them? (both?)
daring hedge
pretty much an umbrella term for skeleton enemies
proud jay
i've kind of cracked how to avoid asterius charge fortunately
daring hedge
you mean hugging walls?
bronze viper
It's fun when you get the angle off against a wall by like single digits and he does a loopdy loop to get you anyway.
Fun. FUN.
proud jay
dusa is also pretty good at taking the punch for you
bronze viper
Or the janky interaction between mid-charge animation and becoming invincible with a call. He kinda just goes into a circular holding pattern
proud jay
@mossy zinc has more than just reaction time list to update tomorrow
somber leaf
pc!
proud jay
youtube finally done updating and editing
bronze viper
Nice! What'd you do?
somber leaf
Neat, did a lot better by holding my mouse like a gamepad and using my right thumb lol
@bronze viper hah! was wondering if a gamepad would be faster, I'm not used to clicking fast
proud jay
i figured haelian might go hard on it soon so decided to grind it out
also there's @urban crater going for 57 heavy routed so the heat was on
tidal flame
Grats!
frail crane
Congrats Bablo!
proud jay
thanks!
daring hedge
oh woah congrats! well deserved especially after that other loss with hades at like 10% health lol
proud jay
i must say i ended up having a few of those
daring hedge
oh interesting, didn't know that you used the same seed haelian did for his 53
proud jay
yeah after realising zeus+jolted is most likely better than dio
if there's an epic jolted being offered very early im going for it
proud jay
man it scales so well too
that erebus was so hard lol
didn't make it through undamaged many times, but the 100 gold gate wasn't tempting either
trim sigil
Every time i read onion in this chat I keep thinking of poms
proud jay
it was for big pom reward tho
trim sigil
god
proud jay
which ended up being onion in most cases
trim sigil
Tbh one problem with erebus is that it is longer than regular chamber AND you spend time trying to not get hit. TD2 giggles
proud jay
i feel like sometimes they are shorter
trim sigil
Quite rarely, although that does happen
autumn sable
yeah, i don't know if they are necesarily longer
proud jay
slow by playing style at least
autumn sable
there's also plenty of time in tartarus and asphodel for the time loss
proud jay
yeah
autumn sable
it's the sort of adapted strategy for TD2
early biomes are for spending extra time for building power
later biomes are for the speedrun prayers
trim sigil
Indeed
Asphodel has like 2 minutes extra for whatever loot adventures you can plan
at any time. Sometimes grows to 3-4
proud jay
they should move one chamber from elysium to asphodel and it'd be all sorted out
i've also wondered if there's any downside of making sack always 2 (or 3) chambers in. you can still finish the others after if you want
the upside is making speedrunners and TD users less frustrated
autumn sable
i've felt like giving player agency to sack RNG by guaranteeing sack if you take both miniboss doors
with maybe the tradeoff being you have to fight both minibosses
trim sigil
Definitely could be a valid tradeoff
autumn sable
or you roll the dice and try and get a sac without a final room through typical rng
trim sigil
Ideal for speedrunners still will be rolling for 2sack, but that's seconds of difference, not minutes, so that should be okay
bronze viper
Highest heat runs have gotten to the point where, similar to 4 or 5 stack Styxes, we should probably have a word for Elysium runs in which we get -1, -2, or -3 rooms
Because every one I've seen so far has needed the -2 lol
bronze viper
It's pretty bad when nowadays I don't see Patty it's not the 5 billion effective extra health he gives I'm missing, but the 1 minute
proud jay
patty makes a big difference for hades fight too if you can carry over either the buff or health
FO2 and CP makes hades fight actually quite intimidating
daring hedge
Yeah, I lost a nearly ideal 51 hades aspect run earlier from bad elysium rooms and no pat
proud jay
also RI3
bronze viper
Oh of course, I'm not minimizing the health gain lol, but to get past Elysium, I haven't seen anyone in the 50+ bracket not require the 2 room Elysium discount to hit TD2
Or TDx
In case of Haelian's
proud jay
but yeah i get your point
there's also fountain and thanatos you can get in elysium
i even take a chaos gate every now and then if it seems like i can't make it otherwise
bronze viper
Yeah, it's why we should probably have a generic term for it, isntead of listing the free rooms you got in the biome
proud jay
well the chambers themselves vary quite a bit too in elysium
i've made it through 50+ heat even with just one extra room a few times, but it's definitely tough
and usually requires dipping heavily into overtime
bronze viper
Lol, which Patty also definitely helps with, ironically
always giving you time one way or another
proud jay
i guess i might have gotten more efficient in the way i clear elysium rooms too
i usually spend at least 4 summons for elysium encounters
and i try to get everything from charon wells to speed up elysium
trim sigil
nail of talos is godsend
bronze viper
I get about as excited for Nail of Talos in Elysium than I do Touch of Styx lol
proud jay
even survival-wise nail of talos is almost superior
bronze viper
As Touch is not very likely to get you over the threshold of tanking 2x Slugger Greatshield waves, so yeah...
proud jay
just blast through those chariot armors
bronze viper
(that was a joke, no one is tanking 2x of those lol)
proud jay
once i started sticking close to shieldy bois they haven't been as much of a problem
that or the fact i started running skelly
bronze viper
sometimes they spawn off screen and the waves go through basically everything that isn't a wall
proud jay
yeah it happens
bronze viper
also they're usually sapced at that distance such that horizontal dashes on twitch reaction will land you in the range of another wave x_x
proud jay
the answer is to summon skelly the moment you see them i suppose
it usually speeds things up too
bronze viper
Yeah I've been experimenting with Dusa but I think I will return to Skelly for consistence
proud jay
i ran dusa a whole lot too
bronze viper
I'm not sure how I would feel about FO2 EM4 lol
tidal flame
Yeah, that's it, that's the reason I don't want to try now.
proud jay
there's already too much going on in phase 2 (read: traps)
should probably start making a compilation of 50+ urn deaths
bronze viper
Though honestly we're getting so close to the logical boundaries of heat completion that maybe it's time for the game to get harder to lower the heat that is actually feasible to do
RI4 57 is not an interesting challenge. I mean, obviously it is, but the threshold of difficulty from 55 to 57 is not 2 heat lol
proud jay
there's always the hell mode heat option most people aren't using
RI4 on its own should be worth way more
40 heat RI4 was pretty much on par with 54 heat for me
tidal flame
RI4 is 8 heat xD
proud jay
even RI3 should be worth more
tidal flame
This is the worst trade deal in the history of the world
It should be 2/3/3/3 imo
For a total of 11 heat, at least, if not more.
trim sigil
2 3 3 4 tbh
tidal flame
Also sure
bronze viper
Lol... even with AP1. Why you gotta do me so dirty, Approval Process? https://imgur.com/RxRZ2OW
(this would have also been the case with AP0 smh)
Just noticed that. Dead no matter what lol. Or at least I have to give up the epic DIo call
trim sigil
That's what you get for not avoiding demeter like fire
Tbh it's better to get nothing than to ruin attack so
imagine if nourished soul was additive to overall healing multiplier, so you could have got 30% on LC4. immediate meta
static plover
that would be a good change tbh; it would make nourished soul not useless on LC4
tidal flame
someone makes a feedback
proud jay
what do you mean with test run?
urban crater
wasn't recorded
proud jay
lul
urban crater
im a bit late on this tbh but thing have come up
only problem with 57 heat is elysium
but if you get all the free rooms then its home free honestly
proud jay
kinda figured you would get it done soon
proud jay
even divine protection and other solid boons could probably pull it off
actually idk forgot you would never heal from anything
crystal iron
Quick Recovery?
urban crater
Oh
Two things 
Athena/Demeter duo works
If they ever nerf that then max heat will be impossible come 1.0
Outside of a perfectly routed run
prime cairn
Does Quick Recovery actually work if you have 0% healing on Pact?
Can confirm Stubborn Roots works.
crystal iron
It does.
honest kernel
You're one-of-a-kind, Forge.
autumn sable
Gonna have to make an entire category just for Kane
autumn sable
Still need 58
tidal flame
well I am rooting for all of you madlads
autumn sable
Perhaps we do need to work on a complete hell mode file for the next step
tidal flame
yeah if someone has a full hell mode file and don't mind sharing, I would love one.
anyhow, please post your 57 vid. that's kinda wild π
tidal flame
what's the meaning of the second one?
frail crane
Each weapon, instead of each aspect
tidal flame
Makes sense. Thanks
autumn sable
I think it represents both highest heat with specific weapon and the aspect that it was achieved with
is my guess
rocky hatch
^
mossy zinc
Lol I just removed the lower-heat ones from the first list.
bronze viper
Lmao. Nyaanyaa taking out the trash.
3....8? What is that, a hieroglyph? I can't even count that low
trim sigil
Beo is trash now 
mossy zinc
That's not the word I used lol.
halcyon frost
wish me luck errybody: my first attempt to unlock skellie's third statue, just beat Heroes with a little help from Patroclus and immediately rolled into another death defy. I'll take it.
mossy zinc
Luck to you, all the luck, both good and bad!
halcyon frost
thanks, it worked.
mossy zinc
Congratulations! π₯³
mossy zinc
Updated both lists. https://imgur.com/a/TeEQvdr https://imgur.com/a/OPXRCp8
daring hedge
oh huh, what happened to zag shield
mossy zinc
Zag Rail up to 45 thanks to bablo. Nemesis down to 41 because the previous 48 does not meet the rules of my leaderboard (evidence of save-scumming). 46 Zag Shield run is under review (whenever I find the time).
I also sorted the aspects by time of completion from left to right now. That is, aspects that cleared that heat earlier are to the left.
daring hedge
woah, like the nemesis run spliced recording footage from save-scumming, you mean?
i haven't seen the run at all
mossy zinc
Yes, that's what I mean.
bronze viper
π¦
daring hedge
well, hey, look on the bright side
now i know nyaa does sometimes watch videos of other people
mossy zinc
Unless somebody else tipped me off, and I just confirmed it.
This is your chance to move up Zag Sword to 42 Heat and prove that Nemesis is the worst sword.
tidal flame
that's sad
bronze viper
I don't remember a 46 Arthur, when did that happen? Isn't on Krasher's list either
tidal flame
how did you know it was save scummed?
I can't find the VOD on Krasherr's lists either π
nvm found it
mossy zinc
The timer disappears for a moment between some chambers, save icon doesn't appear when entering some chambers.
tidal flame
thank you. will keep an eye out for those red flags, just in case.
bronze viper
Iirc pots and stuff are always randomly generated each load as well
daring hedge
ah yeah, that definitely sounds like save-scumming, oof π
the timer pretty much never ever disappears normally
tidal flame
you know, I guess I was very naive when I thought the game is so niche, why would someone stitch their vids T.T
I have never been so wrong
daring hedge
yeah, even the 53 routed was stitched too? ugh
tidal flame
I understand the 3 boon route
But the stiches? what an abomination
DotA jokes, just move along
proud jay
now i know nyaa does sometimes watch videos of other people
having to doubt the legitimacy of these runs is sort of silly in the first place tbh
daring hedge
why was i quoted
i was just poking fun at how nyaa has earlier stated that she pretty much doesn't watch other peoples' runs lol
proud jay
o
daring hedge
i don't think anyone was really primed to doubt the legitimacy of these runs off the bat, for what it's worth
tidal flame
yeah it's a joke
bronze viper
The record breaking runs are going to be under more scrutiny though of course
daring hedge
yeah
mossy zinc
yeah, even the 53 routed was stitched too? ugh
Yes.
tidal flame
I wonder who tipped off this whole debacle
I'm sad now
although I guess it's my time to shine with 42 heat Nemesis
xD
proud jay
well...
mossy zinc
42 Zag Sword*
daring hedge
paraphrasing what krasher has said in the past: we're trying to overall build a sense of community and fun around high heat endeavors, rather than primed to tear down others. but if a run is clearly found to be stitched from save-scumming (not really at all constituting as a run) then it's perfectly appropriate to call it out for this, i think
tidal flame
huh nemesis is still 41?
mossy zinc
Nemesis is at 41, yes. Move Zag Sword up to 42, and beat Nemesis!
tidal flame
well I mean for aspect wise
bronze viper
Wait, re: the timer thing. I just watched some vods, the timer looks like it disappears for a couple of frames between every biome.
mossy zinc
@daring hedge yes, but I'm also not interested in shaming. I've changed my lists because they didn't meet my criteria, and that's it.
daring hedge
oh i know! i'm not suggesting you are just trying to tear anyone down
i do think splicing attempts should be known as such if they are, is all
tidal flame
although back to the save scumming stuff, I hope people are more transparent about the stuff they do. Just add a disclaimer at the bottom of the vid... it's still a feat that you can do 48 or 53, but don't have the intent to deceive lol
now that I remember, the dude who posted it never left any description. I called out the routing then he added the routing stuff, never the stitching. the intent to deceive is there.
I am not mad. I am just disappointed,
mossy zinc
Wait, re: the timer thing. I just watched some vods, the timer looks like it disappears for a couple of frames between every biome.
Do you have any timestamps of that?
proud jay
Wait, re: the timer thing. I just watched some vods, the timer looks like it disappears for a couple of frames between every biome.
@bronze viper there's two different timers
mossy zinc
The save icon also just disappeared at the same time the timer disappeared, without the normal fade-out.
bronze viper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZVuxFMLms Look at 19:39, it happens before Styx as well. Oh, do you mean the top right timer?
mossy zinc
Yeah, top-right timer.
bronze viper
I see.
tidal flame
also haelian streams his attempts
bronze viper
That's why I was using his as an example lol
mossy zinc
You can see the fade-out of the save icon clearly there, too. Good example.
bronze viper
Huh, okay, I see, thanks.
mossy zinc
If you load a temp save into a chamber, you don't get the save icon at all.
So if the save icon isn't present when entering a chamber or just disappears instead of fading out properly, that's evidence of save scumming.
daring hedge
wow, tangential but i skimmed the 53 and it's very clear on loading into the hydra fight
save icon blinks out in the middle of the black chamber load, timer re-appears
mossy zinc
Yup.
daring hedge
the save icon is still pretty telling even if the timer were disabled
tidal flame
fair nuff
mossy zinc
46 Zag Shield seems fine.
wraith imp
-
What is savescumming?
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What is stitched?
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is the 57 heat victory real? (Sorry, I can never tell if I'm missing out on some inside joke.)
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Does anyone have any suggestions for beating the doomstone crystal thing in tartarus with chaos shield on 45+ heat? (I had a few near flawless battles against it but it turns out that I just had dumb beginner's luck against it in high heat.)
mossy zinc
Save-scumming is reloading a chamber to do it over again (because you died or whatever).