Are you saying that a Heroic Divine Flourish provides the same dps as Rare Heartbreak Flourish?
#h1-high-heat-strategies
finite valve
My point is that Athena boon on special is perfectly viable for extremely high heat in terms of damage output
her boon is level 5, my boon is level 3
tidal flame
My point is notice the difference between Heroic and Rare, which I assume is Nyaa's point also.
finite valve
the fact that she managed to boost it to level 5 is another chance
discarding athena flourish because it has a lesser percentage base is wrong
it can make for a viable run
sharp cobalt
I thought they had the same base.
sharp cobalt
Gotcha.
tidal flame
the fact that she managed to boost it to level 5 is another chance
I mean you have Heroic, she has rare, that's your own luck
finite valve
and I never said she didn't have the highest percentage
limpid kestrel
aphro also has access to the boon that increases % damage against weakened which is nice
tidal flame
If you want to talk RNG I think you both have the same luck tbh
finite valve
yes, I already said that Colin
sharp cobalt
Though Divine Flourish can sometimes have extra damage coming from deflecting an attack into an enemy.
finite valve
that's not what I want to say omfg
what I want to say is that Athena flourish CAN clear 52 heat
that's all
she denied that from the get go
and I disagree
tidal flame
My point is in which case anything can do 52 heat if you get massive amount of luck
finite valve
and I agree too
limpid kestrel
i haven't cleared 52 heat so im not inclined to disagree with someone who has
finite valve
she had massive RNG luck on that run
tidal flame
Aphro is more consistent
finite valve
the difference is that she had that good run on the first try, I had to go through a ton of empty runs before I got that one
tidal flame
Idk how you think a Heroic Level 3 Divine Flourish is not rng also
finite valve
dude, do you know how many runs I had where I ended up in Elysium with no boons for my special?
I never said I didn't have any luck
you have to have luck to get a proper setup when you play with -2 choices anyway
that's no the point here, again, all I'm saying is that if you discard a Athena flourish start because it's not the best boon for the beowul's special, you're wrong
tidal flame
And I think that's a moot point
finite valve
my very first try at 48 heat ended up in styx with dyo special 😂
and I lost the run because 3 doors
tidal flame
Becuase Aphro is more consistent
finite valve
yes well
go get a seed when you never get aphro special
and let's see if you care about that consistency
tidal flame
Anecdotes are not data
finite valve
what does that even mean
you grind a seed for charged flight for 2 hours, it's boring, you finally get it
tidal flame
There is nothing in the game favoring Athena over Aphrodite
tidal flame
What you are saying is that you have better luck with Athena
finite valve
no
tidal flame
But in general that's not true
finite valve
you're misreading what I say
my seed was built in such a way that I could only get Aphrodite's special by manipulating the RNG in a very particular way and it didn't always work
and I wasn't willing to either farm another seed or kill a run everytime I didn't get what I want
I just played the run with what I got, and more often than not, I had incredibly bad combinations of boons
so yeah, when I got that Athena special, which is the next best thing, I was happy to have a decent start and push it as far as I could
tidal flame
How does that support you argument that Divine Flourish is viable for 52? Given you need even more RNG to make it work compared to Heartbreak Flourish?
Actually nvm
You are saying that it can work
finite valve
The raw damage output it offers is enough yes, and I stand by it.
tidal flame
And I'm saying that's not optimal
finite valve
yes
tidal flame
Ok then we can move on.
finite valve
I know it's not optimal, never said it wasn't 😄
(I also agree you need more luck to make it work but that's the logical conclusion of it not being optimal :p)
tidal flame
i haven't cleared 52 heat so im not inclined to disagree with someone who has
@limpid kestrel afaik, no one but Nyaa has. That's why it's WR, at least from the runs that have legit videos.
Just clear 32 and call it a day xD
limpid kestrel
shame there's no daedalus trinket
bronze viper
planning a 48 Rama run... this is the first time i've ever tried to farm for a hammer in room for AP2... holy god how long does this take
tidal flame
We nees a seed sharing system xD
finite valve
don't you just need zeus'attack for Rama?
tidal flame
I have some saves with good seeds I collected over the time
bronze viper
want to try relentless volley + drunken flourish
finite valve
problem with that is you lose your overall stats 😦
tidal flame
Rama Lightning Flourish has been nerfed
bronze viper
There's a 48 with the nerfed one
sharp cobalt
Does it only proc lightning one time?
finite valve
yeah but I like seeing 48/40/32/32/32/32 at the end of a run :p
tidal flame
It has internal cooldown
bronze viper
I don't really care about my KDA in Hades lol, I just want credit in my main for this
tidal flame
So theoretically yes practically no
bronze viper
IT's more about the time investment to even be able to start
finite valve
well, I'd happily welcome a hell save
tidal flame
Starting Hell Mode at 1.0
tidal flame
In the meantime the heat boundaries is so high now I really don't want to attempt them
finite valve
I don't even want to play with only 1 dash
it's too meh
I'll wait the next update anyway, I'm moving on to some other games in the mean time
mossy zinc
Lightning Flourish works the same way it has in Nighty Night. Rama's Volley has been adjusted throughout the beta. Lightning Flourish is unchanged.
trim sigil
Still rolling for epic agony
Also still trying to figure out the cues for when attacks can be deflected and when they cannot
Purple-ish waves seem to be the key but they are pretty damn hard to see, so it's memorization test ig
mossy zinc
Megaera's whip AOE attack can't be deflected, shockwaves can't be deflected, explosions can't be deflected, Hades's and Theseus's spin attacks can't be deflected, Charon's purple wave thingies can't be deflected.
You can deflect everything else.
bronze viper
okay, well i'm pretty sure I won a small lottery. got relentless volley + rare drunken flourish in about 20 attempts with no routing
trim sigil
The waves from skellies can be deflected, although ig the shockwaves are the circle ones like from skulls
Also some melee attacks don't seem to be deflectable i swear
mossy zinc
No, you can deflect all attacks except the ones I mentioned.
And yeah, shockwaves like from the Skullcrusher or Hades's skulls.
Let me just repost what I wrote elsewhere lol.
The way deflect works is that you can't deflect attacks that hit you. You have to deflect before they hit you, or you need to get out of the way or be invincible and deflect.
Dashes give i-frames, so that lets you deflect anything that's deflectable if you have Divine Dash. But the startup and recovery of your Dash is not invincible, so you still need to time your dashes.
Dash-Strikes don't have i-frames. If you press Attack during your Dash, you cancel your Dash into a Dash-Strike. So as soon as you press Attack, you're no longer invincible. You still get the Deflect box around you, though.
mossy zinc
You can't deflect the shockwaves from Lernie head slams or from EM Asterius, either.
But you can deflect the slam from those two attacks.
Then you won't get hit by the shockwaves.
Good for Asterius, I wouldn't try it for Lernie.
trim sigil
Well, for the most part it's clear, one little speculation: does that mean for the most part having Divine Dash allows to Dash Strike enemies without getting hit?
Not shockwaves and aoe and stuff obv
mossy zinc
Hmm. If you Dash-Strike, it extends your hurtbox forward, and Divine Dash won't cover all of that. But it definitely helps a lot.
bronze viper
how much route manipulation is too much? if I have to door cast once to get to my boon in the first room? is that kosher?
mossy zinc
I wouldn't do anything like that.
honest kernel
back at 41 rama and getting angry
limpid kestrel
ok well charged flight is pretty powerful
bronze viper
oh right, my 41 with rama finished rendering, the link is up from yesterday. Lol, my youtube wasn't verified and it only told me after it tried processing my first upload attempt
limpid kestrel
i didn't get it till halfway through elysium, but I got rare aphro special fairly early
mossy zinc
Speaking of that.
@finite valve you'd need a Lv.16–17 rare Divine Flourish to match the damage of a rare Heartbreak Flourish at Lv.5.
Good luck with that.
limpid kestrel
the demeter boon that lets you do extra damage for having 0 cast is pretty easy to use when you can literally just hold the cast with beo hehe
sharp cobalt
The cheats.
mossy zinc
Does that work? I haven't tried it at all lol.
limpid kestrel
yeah worked on this run I just did
mossy zinc
I've only cleared two runs with Beowulf.
limpid kestrel
im feeling like a fool for max levelling it though because you basically don't even need the bullcharge when using heavy throw
narrow mauve
Oh, also, is there some resource that explains door cast? I heard haelian mention it o stream and didn't quite get it
limpid kestrel
when you say door cast are you talking about rolling dice on the door to change the reward?
bronze viper
you can manipulate the room by casting, i couldn't find a guide, but i didnt' try that hard. doing research now
limpid kestrel
i literally have no idea what you're talking about right now actually
honest kernel
if you use a cast within the room next room will be different
limpid kestrel
I thought you meant Fated Authority
bronze viper
i think the game procedurally generates in a stack, and casting advances the stack by one in a particular pathway? I'm not quoting anything, I'm figuring it out by experimenteation
honest kernel
I think I figured out something till like 3 rooms and then I got bored
honest kernel
but rng manip with cast is a thing
tidal flame
Pot breaking
tidal flame
Yup
limpid kestrel
any pot or gold pot only?
tidal flame
Anypot
limpid kestrel
wow
tidal flame
It's there supposedly because of Dusa Keepsake
limpid kestrel
right
tidal flame
Which rolls into the rng function
mossy zinc
I've also heard recently it's not actually those but just the timer that affects the RNG. But no idea, I don't do routing.
bronze viper
it's too expensive to continuously recalc generated stuff every second or whatever, it's easier to bind to events
tidal flame
For routing purposes you should consult the speedrun server
honest kernel
wierd
tidal flame
Or the modding server
honest kernel
the time window must be pretty forgiving tho
mossy zinc
I don't know if it's true.
tidal flame
Afaik the time window affects your very first run in a save
But not for subsequent ones
honest kernel
big brain time
bronze viper
like i mentioend, this is a pile of hearsay. It's kind of impossible to tell without the source
mossy zinc
Well, you have access to the source.
tidal flame
Well my source is hearsay but from the speedrun server and the modding one xD
So fwiw I just put that out there
Tbf hammer seed provides you more than just a hammer
You also have access to the God that you force
bronze viper
shrug, my seed has key after hammer. so sample size of 2 now lol
tidal flame
You will almost always see blue laurel room after your first boon
So the odds of seeing key is p high
uncut pebble
maybe dumb question, but what are the easier pacts of punishment / how do you procede up the heat
my best was 16 heat
mossy zinc
I'd say just get used to all the pacts. Try different combos, and see how it affects your run.
Best way to handle heat is experience and practice.
bronze viper
kind of a cop out answer, but at 16 heat, don't you have a pretty good idea of how dangerous each pact is? In general, your progress will come from how well you manage FO1/2, EM3, and TD2
Ignore AP and RI for now
mossy zinc
You can avoid EM3 until like 40-ish. Which is probably a good idea.
bronze viper
Idk it's worth grinding out the fight to learn how to do it. It's not the best idea to do it if you just care about farming bounties, but yeah
trim sigil
Using FO2 EM3 TD2 gives you 15 (i think?) heat, and while being not the easiest route for 16 specifically, it is core experience for higher heats so it's worth to get accustomed to early
mossy zinc
It's a very hard fight, and you still need to fight Hades after that.
sharp cobalt
I've been slapping it on just to learn it.
And because Theseus is just so happy and cute.
He is having so much fun with his chariot.
uncut pebble
yeah em 3 was like the first pacts i sued
bronze viper
❤️ Mino-sempai
uncut pebble
*used
trim sigil
I like em3 a lot more because theseus doesn't have shield for 60% of fight and laughs constantly
sharp cobalt
Asterius is horrifying though.
bronze viper
But yeah I like @trim sigil's suggestion. If your intent is to improve, get very comfortable with EM3 FO2 TD1/2. TD2 is less useful, you just want the timer to gauge, particularly because it's "optional" at extremely high heat
Also partially because you have enough on your plate in Elysium, and it's possible that TD2 will cause you to not even be able to attempt EM3
mossy zinc
You can just practice the EM3 fight at high heats when you get there.
There's a good amount of RNG in that fight.
bronze viper
Lol, practicing the hardest fight at high heat sounds like an exercise in insanity
mossy zinc
It's pretty chill.
finite valve
@finite valve you'd need a Lv.16–17 rare Divine Flourish to match the damage of a rare Heartbreak Flourish at Lv.5.
@mossy zinc You'll have to demonstrate your math here because it's not what I see
60% vs 80% and the same multipliers
mossy zinc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P6oZ6i8zmY6s7PM_AkX_g6bjZ601iP_xi9CxzEpujJ4/edit?usp=sharing
Second sheet.
finite valve
I don't understand while you absolutely want to be right on that one, Divine Flourish CAN clear 52 heat with the right RNG, period, there's a massive amount of other factors coming to play and determining your final damage
mossy zinc
There aren't gonna be a lot of other factors at 52 because you're not gonna have a lot of other things. But go ahead and prove me wrong.
finite valve
I'm not gonna invest hours just to prove something to a random person on the internet sorry
Got more valuable stuff to do with my time
You can manipulate RNG to start with a Epic version of a boon
and upgrade it with eurydice
getting an heroic boon is not something extraordinary
it's what I did
mossy zinc
There's a very big difference between "I absolutely want to be right" and showing you there's a very big difference in damage scaling for those two boons.
finite valve
I know there is, and yet, you CAN have a good damage output on athena too
mossy zinc
If you start with an Epic Divine Flourish, you're not starting with Charged Flight.
finite valve
so you CAN finish a 52 heat run in the right conditions, period
I did
and I got epic
it's in my video
finite valve
exactly
mossy zinc
You don't have both a hammer and a boon in the first chamber lol so no.
finite valve
what are you talking about
I got my hammer, I got my epic special, I got Eurydice => heroic boon on special
as far as I'm concerned, the first 6 rooms are the start of the run
since you can manipulate RNG to have a consistency over these few rooms
and I end up with a damage output similar to yours, so why on earth would that be different
mossy zinc
Because I'm not talking about routing early Tartarus to your advantage lol.
finite valve
yeah and 1 week ago you were claiming you never use seed
I don't see why routing tartarus to have a proper start makes my argument wrong
it's the exact same stuff than seeding your first hammer
mossy zinc
It's definitely not lol.
finite valve
how is that not
do you want my seed?
want to see how bad it is
if you don't manipulate the first rooms you end up with literally nothing in Elysium
not even one boon for your special
finite valve
it's not routing
it's defining your build
it's the very same than reseting your run until getting charged flight
and mind you, I played absolutely every run to the end even if I had squat
mossy zinc
I don't think anyone would agree with that.
finite valve
or just nobody cares
tidal flame
Seeding and routing are not the same though
You can do it
Just make sure you state routed through Tartarus or whatever
It doesn't take away your accomplishments
finite valve
define routing tho
tidal flame
Seeding is guaranteeing first boon/hammer only
Routing includes seeding but also includes any RNG manipulation beyond that
This is the unwritten rule of the community
Not my own
finite valve
what if you fail the routing and don't get what you want? Kappa
tidal flame
The thing with routing is that you can't fail to get what you want
I'm not sure what the joke is about
finite valve
there's no joke
tidal flame
Well "kappa"
finite valve
I literally failed my routing and ended up with Athena instead of Aphro
tidal flame
Then you routed it wrong
finite valve
but like I said, I just play all my runs anyway since you never know what can happen
finite valve
yes 😄
tidal flame
Well just say that you failed the route but proceed anyway
finite valve
it's not like I'll get more than 20 views anyway lol
tidal flame
For record keeping stuff, you don't have to
finite valve
I merely up my videos as proofs of hard feat
tidal flame
But I do watch high heat runs
finite valve
yeah I don't care about the views :p
got a bunch of very hard stuff uploaded on my channel with like 9 views 😂
tidal flame
Well as long as you don't submit it to any leaderboard, just do whatever :D
bronze viper
to whom do we do that by the way?
mossy zinc
Krashercorr.
bronze viper
Should I just wait for him to be online, DM him, or does he just check down the victory-boasting channel?
tidal flame
Tag him with vid in #self-promotion
bronze viper
Thanks
tidal flame
Or you can also submit it to speedrun.com
It's p barren there but be the change you want to see in the world.
They have high heat category
mossy zinc
speedrun.com doesn't even sort the high heat runs by heat yet, it sorts them by time lol.
mossy zinc
No, you're first now because they removed my other 2 runs I'd submitted lol. It only has the 52 one now.
I'm 3rd. 
mossy zinc
I submit them anyway, but honestly I care more for Krashercorr's leaderboard here on the server. It's comprehensive, and it actually works as intended. That's a nice plus.
tidal flame
Yeah I hope they fix it to rank by heat
mossy zinc
There's also a High Heat Women's Leaderboard that's updated by me.
tidal flame
I don't want that 1st place empty title
When there are way more impressive runs out there
mossy zinc
They didn't even put the real time for mine even though I submitted it lol.
At least I was still 1st until they removed by sub-16 run.
tidal flame
Rip, fwiw Krashercorr doc is the one that counts
But I wish the speedrun leaderboard is fixed and more populated
Since that's the proper channel to do things like what we have.
bronze viper
most games are completable at maximum difficulty
mossy zinc
This is the official server for the game. Seems proper to me.
bronze viper
(not saying this one isn't, but it won't happen for a while)
tidal flame
👀 waiting for 58 heat run
bronze viper
You have like what, 2 or 3 mistakes allowed to you in an entire run?
mossy zinc
I care way less about some third-party website.
tidal flame
Well speedrun.com is a staple for record keeping for gaming in general
And if you are new to Hades and want to speedrun
The first place you think of is speedrun.com
mossy zinc
I'd rather give more publicity to this server than speedrun.com.
tidal flame
Well the two are not mutually exclusive
mossy zinc
Correct. I already said I submit my runs to speedrun.com. But it's really not a priority for me.
trim sigil
Curse of Pain
Slicing Shot
Merciful End
Still got it later but died on hydra
It does carry a hella ton though, I have to admit
mossy zinc
Try without AP.
trim sigil
Things to replace AP with: JS3, DC2, RI1, TD2
mossy zinc
You just want to get Merciful End asap. After that, any other pacts aren't gonna be that much of an issue.
tidal flame
Imagine if your dash applies doom
mossy zinc
If you're gunning for one of the fastest builds in the game, might as well pick TD2.
Remember to apply Boiling Blood on the few tanky enemies in Tartarus to help you with early damage.
And prioritize poms.
Irony is I always forget to apply Boiling Blood lately because I've been practicing so much 50+ where it's a non-factor lol.
trim sigil
Got to heroes, without merciful end
Can't say I'm too disappointed in that outcome but taking 80 dmg hits while tickling them wasn't a big pleasure either
bronze viper
hmm... i'm in elysium now on 50 heat. I'm gonna be pissed if this by some miracle works out (it won't) since I'm not recording this lol.
ffs, i found patty. This better not be the run
frail crane
Oof
bronze viper
i think fountain, Than or shop might have been able to save the run? I probably need to look more aggressively for an attack boon though. Apply Hangover -> Run Away only does so much damage
lol, i got rekt by a Popper Greatbow room where I could never actually go into the open to find and kill the shade because the other greatbows were there
mossy zinc
Timed out with 4 summon charges tells you something. 
bronze viper
yeah i'm switching to Meg or Skelly probably
I never need it for single target, and it would have helped in Elysium
Also switching Boiling Blood/Infernal Soul over Abyssal/Stygian for some minor damage
particularly if I get a cast
bronze viper
DC is meaningless for Rama dio, but yeah the CP is tempting
mossy zinc
I don't know how confident you are in your single-dash boss fights, though.
bronze viper
shrug, may as well learn how to play without dashes now lol
i have literally never done it
so, not very
i'm bad enough at dodging Chariots, Flamewheels, and Mino bull rush with 2 dashes, so I can't imagine that would go super well
molten saffron
what is your suggestions for heat order? what heat challenges should i start with and work my way through?
tidal flame
You can start with anything tbh
My least fav ones are Lasting Consequences, Routine Inspection, and Approval Process
My go to (almost always on) are EMx, FO2, TDx
next stratus
for some reason I thought to go CF2, EM2, HS, LC, TD at first. There are some choices that make TD unreasonable but I know people still pull it off.
molten saffron
i see, thank you!
cedar spire
I didn't take a screenshot but 53 heat was completed on stream today. Chaos shield 2 gud
static plover
Pog congrats 
tidal flame
Pog indeed congrats!
autumn sable
vod is updated into heat list for anyone interested
tidal flame
Didn't Haelian also have a 51 clear with Chaos?
I would live to see that progress from 50 51 52 53 on the sheet
autumn sable
i've always consolidated same weapons/runners
with reference to formers in the notes
but maybe I should just leave them
tidal flame
I see
Well I would personally love to see the increase in heat at 50 for drama
Just a personal request :D
mossy zinc
@cedar spire congratulations! 🥳
honest kernel
Could definitely stand to have a Top 10 List.
daring hedge
hades aspect 47! catching up to you shield tossers 
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/683432275974684679/735345937664442408/20200721230141_1.jpg
honest kernel
I was idly toying with trying a high Heat run and then I saw you had to sell whatever Doom boon spawned Impending Doom and nope.
daring hedge
oh wow yeah the entirety of what i thought i had going from tartarus until mid elysium
the game was just like, how about no
take epic deadly strike
who was i to say no
it was a bizarre ping pong because i had dire misfortune really early on too, but sold it before i got serrated point, where it actually would have been decent with my doom attack at the time
but everything lined up in the precisely wrong way and i got the mess that i did in the end
mossy zinc
What mess? You got Deadly Strike, Divine Dash, Zeus' Aid, Life Affirmation . . . What more do you want?
Serrated Point, too.
Congratulations!
daring hedge
thank you!
i guess i was kind of hoping for an eventual merciful end but yeah, honestly the swap to deadly strike and then taking jerky from pat to squeeze past an admittedly sloppy champs fight was probably the right move in the end anyway
love to waste four acorn charges right off the bat from theseus bullets 
honest kernel
Ugh, EM Theseus is the worst.
daring hedge
for real yeah
on my runs where i don't get serrated point, he's even more of a pain because the stationary attack combo takes far too long for zoomy theseus
so instead i have to make standard dash-strikes and the occasional poke work outside of his gloating stop
urban crater
narrow mauve
also, speaking of high heat strategies
Can someone send me tips for surviving the summer other than spending my days under a cold shower
cyan stag
Covering the windows with aluminum foil will reflect sunlight away and create denser shade than blinds.
mossy zinc
Your record is 23.5? 
mossy zinc
Mine is 52.
timber bison
:O
cyan stag
Be right back and thank you
@narrow mauve Typically aluminum foil has a shiny and a dull side. The shiny side has to face outward, and it's best to stick the foil to the outside of the window pane. Remember to ventilate the flat at times, so that moisture doesn't build up inside, which also increases the subjective temperature.
mossy zinc
Pretty sure that's #off-topic-discussion.
cyan stag
I know, I know. I still think it's a nice irony that Neltharak decided to post that here.
narrow mauve
It was meant as a joke and it was hilarious, but yeah, from here onwards probably better to chat elsewhere
mossy zinc
Charming the Bone-Rakers vs green Lernie speeds that fight up quite a bit.
bronze viper
Yeah I'm on the Skelly train now, Lernie phase 2 is so RNG without it
mossy zinc
Hmm. I don't think you should spend a summon in that fight if you can avoid it.
bronze viper
It's kind of moot at the moment. I intended to save 2 for Styx but I am not getting through EM3 at the moment
I tuned down to 49 by removing a CP, which is helping immensely. It's gone from "I need to get lucky" to "I need to get good"
mossy zinc
Well, you'll need to practice the boss fights either way.
bronze viper
If I am against a wall and Asterius is charging at me, is it better to time a dash through him to get behind him or to dash to the side?
I have had pretty similar success rates with both (which is to say, not ideal)
honest kernel
Through him can be risky; if the angle lets you, dash between his vector of approach and the wall
mossy zinc
You should fight him between a pillar and a wall.
Then you can just easily dash through him, and he'll 100% run into either the pillar or the wall trying to turn around.
bronze viper
Yeah, I do like being positioned between wall/pillar, but it can't happen all the time. @honest kernel I do like that explanation, it makes sense, I'll look out to do that if I'm caught out.
It's not just me, right? If you're in the center, against a pillar, and he is charging at you, charging through the pillar is pretty far from guaranteed to cause him to run into it? He can track well enough around them
mossy zinc
Yeah, I don't bother doing that at all.
honest kernel
I've had him run into pillars a lot recently.
But I have also seen him dodge around them effortlessly.
bronze viper
Yeah, I kept trying to see how it worked, but it really does seem to be a matter of teeny tiny angles or timings or whatever. I think I recall it being way easier in non-FO EM3 to time through pillars so I kept trying it in FO2 without consistent success. I'll try both of your suggestions though, thanks
twin sky
I just accept that I can't out-maneuver Asterius cause he has jukes that can break ankles. At this point I don't think SG is gonna nerf his bull rush acceleration.
honest kernel
its def a thing of like running towards the next wall when you see the startup
but if he starts running from offscreen gg
although I never had as many problems in the big arena as in the miniboss one
daring hedge
Yeah, I think aside from occasional frustration that comes with being potentially unable to evade his charge, it feels ridiculously... uncharacteristic of a big bull charge. The level of control he has to make sharp turns while maintaining his speed is just silly, honestly
honest kernel
drifing around the pillars is whacky
but I think that might be a pillar collision thing
daring hedge
Yeah, that happens way too often. You'd think it would be simple to make a minotaur charge into a pillar once you've lined it all up and you're ready. But nope, sometimes he turns on a dime once you've cleared it to run a lap or two around
tidal flame
leave the cow alone, he's practicing for his audition in the next 2fast2furious ok
errant venture
moo moo, ya sons of a gun!
honest kernel
Even on 32 Heat, my only issue with Asterius was his spin.
And even then I had Hard Labor and Forced Overtime maximized.
bronze viper
... lol, I've been working on this for 2 days, with no success. I did a practice run at work today, over the course of like 3 or 4 hours, and got there. Working on getting a run recorded smh.
0 damage, all beef. Was not particularly fun to play lol.
autumn sable
@daring hedge that Hades run is so spicy.
daring hedge
thank you lol, it really was
i almost wanted to just kinda give up around asphodel since i was thinking "i dunno if this is gonna be the one"
mossy zinc
@bronze viper congratulations!
bronze viper
Thanks 🙂 I have to do it again, but yeah, it feels good to know that I can. Not sure how I keep arriving at these life totals without Life Affirmation though
daring hedge
yeah, that's definitely an impressive max health without it
i barely got above your total while i did have it for almost the whole run
bronze viper
i got a life gate in Tartarus... and I think that's "it" as far as weird sources. I got a visit from Than? I honestly have no idea lol.
mossy zinc
Prioritizing HP can do that.
Boons don't have that much value anymore when any of them could be an exchange that you really don't want.
bronze viper
i've been a lot better about keeping boon count at <=3 and keeping a fated persuasion to protect me from that
Though to be fair, this build end game was nearly boonless (as far as offense). Explosive Shot was like the vast majority of my damage.
trim sigil
Gold isn't really helpful because of CF either, so the only things to take over hp would be few core gods boons and poms
bronze viper
I yolo'd a Hammer in Elysium because I was (rightfully) scared abuut not being able to finish in time
lol, what is with that one elite witch in Erebus that kites around corners and does homing splitting attacks. Infuriating.
trim sigil
3 cluster ones as wel
I was initially surprised the wave only had 5 enemies or so. Then it became clear what kind of hell i signed up for
bronze viper
Love Rama :3. I think that 49 was a fluke from getting explosive shot in elysium. Dio doesn't scale hard enough without Priviliged Status or duo boons. So I'm testing Explosive, Triple, and Chain Shot atm. Probably leaning towards Triple? Explosive is great, but if I was going to use a shotgun I may as well play Excalibur
honest kernel
im surprised explosive ended up working out because its that slow
bronze viper
You release as soon as you start the charge, it's still a ton of damage
honest kernel
point blank stuff?
bronze viper
It's better than lvl Drunken Flourish, which was my main DPS source until Elysium lol
Nah, it's not literally point blank, the explosion radius is surprisingly large
honest kernel
I see 🤔 maybe I'll pick it next time
trim sigil
Point blank shot range ig
Altho, does that mean explosion happens even when arrow just expires (without hitting a target)?
bronze viper
Yes
honest kernel
wait does twin shot double explosion dmg
bronze viper
Lol, talk about point blank
trim sigil
It should
honest kernel
its time...
bronze viper
(triple shot explosion is probably where you want to be for that)
honest kernel
I like this newforming rama meta
bronze viper
For Rama I think Triple is just better than Twin in the fast majority of cases. Since Rama's charge time is so long the shorter range sucks so bad for Twin
honest kernel
yeah range is the huge issue
bronze viper
Whereas Sharanga makes Triple's spread less problematic
and you can obv still shotgun people to death
trim sigil
For sharanga triple overlaps which gives it somewhat reasonable usage on single targets
(and it's easier to hit crowds with side arrows, too)
bronze viper
Triple + Chain feels like a meme, but it's probably legit my favorite combo even at 40 heat
A lot of people, including high profile people like Haelian are complaining that the weapon is bad (to be fair... it's not amazing lol). So it's pretty likely to get buffed too, which is exciting.
honest kernel
it's like my fav too but people generally want bow buffed
tidal flame
well the two are not mutually exclusive
I love bow, I would like to see same dash strike damage buff, would go a long way ❤️
honest kernel
I was never able to clear 40+ with rama tho maybe I'll be able to do it soon
bronze viper
Huh, I haven't tried Battle Rage on Rama in a while. That's gotta be pretty spicy.
mossy zinc
@bronze viper that witch is a super elite. The same one Hades can summon, and she does the same thing around the pillars there.
teal ibex
First time playing with TD2. Breezed through first two biomes. Then managed to get through Elysium in the nick of time. Feeling pretty good. Cue the Satyr bag in 6th room 
I'm going back to playing slow. Game does this to me every time I try to enable TD
mossy zinc
Tunnel.
mossy zinc
@cedar spire what's your strategy for a chamber of Elite Longspears with one dash and Chaos Aspect? Dash away > Bull Rush away > Special > repeat isn't working well because I end up taking damage from some of them catching up. Facing them with Bull Rush isn't working well, either, because one or more end up getting behind me with that lunge.
cedar spire
I definitely noticed bullrushing through the longspears is not a good idea since they tend to stab you right after. It's hard to say what I would do in the moment but terrain can sometimes play a big part, I like dashing over the gaps in Elysium to get away since it can force them to go around to chase.
mossy zinc
Hmm alright, sounds good. Thanks!
bronze viper
Been grinding to get a bunch of seeds for AP2 Bow hammers to practice from in the future, but also for epic attack/special, is there a resource somewhere to share them in case someone else wants them?
honest kernel
I dunno just hold onto them for now
bronze viper
Hmm, yeah, I guess they're invalidated the next major patch/release
tidal flame
hammer seeds should still work afaik
bronze viper
oh, which file specifically holds that information? I've just been keeping saves
frail crane
Stay away from even the vague path of the bombs
tidal flame
what even hit you in the 2nd gif?
frail crane
A bomb
mossy zinc
A bomb.
frail crane
The first one was Asterius doing donuts, the second two were bombs
tidal flame
yeah but the animation doesn't seem to match
or is that a recording fps issue?
are we missing frames?
frail crane
But yeah, for Asterius it's hugging a wall so he can't loop as much, and for the bombs it's going in the opposite direction of them
cyan stag
I found out that Cold Fusion melts EM Theseus within less than a minute with only a handful of hits (at least the chariot part), maybe that helps you. Hit him with Zeus and let the jolts run their course while you stay out of his grill.
mossy zinc
The animation is fine lol.
tidal flame
no it's really not, the death animation is very abrupt
they skipped the impact frame
so you will never see yourself getting hit at lethal damage, just the black screen
does it affect gameplay? no, because you are dead, not like you can go back in time to dodge it
but from a viewer standpoint and the general "feel" of the game in general, that's way off
mossy zinc
I mean, you're the only one who has issues with it lol.
tidal flame
not really, there are one or two reports here that was confused by what killed them
mossy zinc
Anyway, the fight is stupid and has way too much RNG.
Well, it's stupid because of the RNG.
frail crane
It's not RNG—it's just unclear how the bouncing works
Which feels like RNG, but isn't
I agree that it's difficult and hard to play around though
mossy zinc
Bruh.
frail crane
at least, I sure as hell hope it's not RNG how it bounces lmao
also sorry, I'm in game design mode which autocorrects
tidal flame
I mean, you're the only one who has issues with it lol.
mossy zinc
I'm not, though.
trim sigil
Got completely clobbered by hades' lasers out of almost nowhere in p2-2
Welp, at least those ME zag sword attempts start getting somewhere, but I surely felt undergeared for that attempt in particular (no aid, 25% health when entering fight, etc.)
The biggest bummer is that i do know how to dodge them. It's just that it comes up when i do the opposite
Also those bomb gifs above are spicy
mossy zinc
I think it's usually when he does the skull > skull > thrust combo right before 360 beams that people mess up.
trim sigil
Yeah, it was actually that
mossy zinc
I thought so lol.
I'll do some more practice fights in the next few days and probably look for a reliable strategy for that specific situation.
trim sigil
Hypothetically, the solution is to dash behind thrust so hades is closer to get into blind spot
But eeh
mossy zinc
Easiest solution is getting close to him right after the combo, so you can get on top of him if he does 360 beams and just tank the much weaker damage from the skull shockwaves.
trim sigil
Ye, seems like it
Personally I don't go close up because of 2 swings spin combo, but it may be easier to avoid than that
mossy zinc
I'm pretty sure I just dash through him for that, then just keep running. That should get you out of there safely.
But if you have the pillar/rock behind you, he'll get stuck on that and hit you with the spin.
What was the strategy here that I missed for dodging that shot from Theseus? https://gfycat.com/slowfondduiker
trim sigil
That pillar spin ""feature"" slapped me a few times (with Asterius as well!) so it's a given thing to be wary of, yeah
As for the theseus on gif, uhh... this may require keeping track of where theseus is to not end up on the opposite part, but that's too much effort for a single attack ngl
mossy zinc
Maybe if I had radar or something lol. Can't keep track if he's off-screen more than half the time.
mossy zinc
I recorded at 60 fps. From the moment the first bullet appeared on screen to when I got hit was 14 frames lol.
Not like I could have done anything anyway because of dash recovery.
trim sigil
How about his laughter? Was it before or later than boolets?
mossy zinc
There actually was no laughter lol.
trim sigil
sturdy beacon
If you sell a boon that you bought from a god, does that make it less likely you'll get a boon offered from that god later in the run. I hoped that might be the case, but my experience is suggesting otherwise
mossy zinc
Doesn't seem to have any effect.
trim sigil
If it was god's only boon it should slightly reduce the chances iirc
Otherwise no effect at all
sturdy beacon
I know there's no clear answer for this - but how many gods roughly do you focus on a run - 2/3?
Sorry I've realised these aren't high heat questions witll go to builds etc.
mossy zinc
I thought it would push them out of the "locked-in" pool, so to speak, but I've been paying some attention lately, and that doesn't seem to be the case after all.
bronze viper
For Asphodel, is it better to take Athena to leave myself open to Divine Dash and +DD boons, or to take Cthonic Coin Purse? I think I see more people do the latter but I have had fairly good results with the former
For AP runs*
mossy zinc
I pretty much always pick the Owl Pendant in Asphodel.
Even if it's not Divine Dash, she has a lot of other good t1 boons.
bronze viper
yeah, that's been my experience as well, virtually all of them are useful
mossy zinc
Divine Flourish or Strike are pretty much the only ones that can be useless depending on your build.
Bronze Skin is only worth about a Centaur Heart maybe, but that's still something.
If you get an exchange, that can screw you over. But it's generally worth the risk.
bronze viper
The revenge boon is probably the worst? It's not even bad, but you probably shouldn't be putting yourself into too many situations where you can get hit multiple times. A lifesaver in Elysium though
mossy zinc
Can save lives in Asphodel, too.
I've noticed in Hell mode against Snakestones that Holy Shield actually gives you a brief moment of invulnerability.
When I was trying to suicide for SD.
bronze viper
Does next to nothing against poison darts or Hades sadly
mossy zinc
Well, there are still moments where it can help.
I'd sell it over a lot of other options, though.
Getting Proud Bearing can also be pretty good if you have a Call when you get to Asphodel.
bronze viper
Yeah, that's kind of moot though since you can't even get it if you don't have a call
So it should always have some use if you're offered it
bronze viper
The one that's accompanied by the rat and satyr?
frail crane
yeah, but the bombs were what did me in
honest kernel
Once every 10 runs or so the Dire Bother will Prince of Tennis drop shot you and I hate it.
frail crane
yeah, dropped it in #hades-feedback . Was a really promising No Boons run, on 16 heat
I also took a double-hit from one of the bombs, which I just reported
honest kernel
Ooh, yeah.
hollow lynx
ugh
tried 32 and had a really good run with hades exploding launcher
except elysium’s way too long and i ran out of time at theseus
bronze viper
yeah i definitely wish TD was redistributed to make every zone a ltitle more tense but make elysium not a brick wall
It's to the point where I could be wrecking through Asphodel and I'm tempted to just restart because I know in my heart of hearts I won't make it through Elysium
uncut wigeon
What makes Elysium such an issue with TD?
is it needing to double kill all the guys?
I'm nearing 16 heat, and soon as I do that, it wont' be long until I gotta try 32
bronze viper
More encounters, more troublesome encounters, EM3 boss, a huge health spike over Asphodel
Better defensive mechanics, e.g. Voidstones (is that what the shieldy ones are called?), Greatshields, the need to use cover or terrain to avoid damage, which eats time (especially against Greatbows and flame wheels/chariots)
hollow lynx
they could really do with taking one or two of elysium’s chambers and putting them in the first two biomes
or, carry over time
bronze viper
And yeah, occasionally you'll be playing a melee build and you'll find a Popper room
Plus some minor but aggravating things like Theseus' 10-century phase transition animation
I like the increase in complexity and health, don't get me wrong, but it's kind of insane that you're offered the same amount of time for Asphodel as Elysium. 4/5 room Styx is its own problem
cyan stag
I'm also all in favor of a total time pool of 36/28 minutes.
hollow lynx
in this case i timed out at the beginning of A&T's fight because of a surprising overabundance of shifter speeder swords, which combined with FO2 and their constant dashing, made it really fricking hard to hit them
tidal flame
I read that as AT&T
bronze viper
Or the opposite problem, Speeder Slugger Greatshields, which require the precision of a surgeon to kill without taking damage
Probably not a popular opinion but I don't believe Speeder is a particularly interesting mechanic in FO2. It's fine until you get to Elysium where basically any enemy type turns into pure cancer with it
Half the reason I want a long duration invulnerable Call is because of Speeder Flame Wheels
bronze viper
Yeah, literally every enemy except for maybe Splitters unless they're also Seeker
I haven't really figured out what makes Chariots stop and what doesn't. For whatever reason I recall Blade Dash of all things just stopping them in their tracks
Thoguh it's been a while since I've used it, could be wrong on that
honest kernel
If you're making Tight Deadline an overall timer, it needs to be much shorter than 28 minutes.
I do agree with moving one Chamber from Elysium to Asphodel, too.
trim sigil
It seems like chariot stops if
- you hit it when it has no armor (although, poseidon dash for some reason doesn't stop them sometimes)
- it travels certain distance
- if you manage to completely cut off its' pathfinder with something like a gap
bronze viper
hmm, maybe it's because of the travel distance that sometimes it will just stop forever if you dash behind it? But that doesn't always work
honest kernel
I've been sandwiched between a Chariot and a too-wide-to-Dash gap before for a Death Defiance.
1 and 2 sound right, and they for a brief period of time they did stop if they hit Zag, but then they were reverted.
trim sigil
Tbh at this point Divine Dash is flex tape of enemy AIs
15 homing Spreaders spam at you? Divine Dash
Chariots can't stop eating your feet? Divine Dash
EM3 Asterius? You know the deal
bronze viper
;_; So many tears. Lol, I got epic Deadly Strike and epic Hunter Dash on Rama in Tartarus, played like an idiot. Plus side, I'm getting a lot better at spacing Rama charge shots in high heat.
mossy zinc
@frail crane HL5 LC4 CF2 EM3 BP2 MM UC FO2 RI1 AP1 TD2 with either Aegis or Varatha.
frail crane
Wooh, that's a lot. What does that add up to?
mossy zinc
Oooooh, I don't know~~!
frail crane
52?
mossy zinc
No lol.
mossy zinc
Maybe~~!
frail crane
Hahaha
Mmkay
Won't be for a few days before I even go for it though. Not playing any more today, and busy with other stuff next couple days
I'll keep you posted >:3
mossy zinc
Good luck!
frail crane
Thanks ^.^
mossy zinc
@cedar spire at this point I'm starting to think you did your records in spite of Chaos Aspect—not because of it. I can't make this aspect work for me, it's so slow lol. It does like no damage to bosses. 
cedar spire
Jolted was definitely required, especially for bosses. I think I got a fountain in Elysium as well as patty and I still hit the Deadline but scraped it out for 53. Some luck definitely required, taking a chaos gate seems like a must if the opportunity arises in Elysium. I was going to share the seed I used, just keep forgetting. I'll try to remember to throw it up on my discord after work today
mossy zinc
I also saw you didn't take CP at all and just barely made it in time.
Seems like CP is really bad for Chaos Aspect.
cedar spire
Without calisthenics, the Hades fight still took almost 4 minutes... probably need to find more damage to do more than 53 but I think it's possible. May eventually need to require getting a certain duo or good tier 2 I think, maybe curse of nausea with dio on special?
You think the Beowulf special build could handle 1 DC or maybe the last jury summons? @mossy zinc
sharp cobalt
What was your attack boon in that run?
cedar spire
I had athena's attack eventually, it helped a little in deflecting some things.
sharp cobalt
Might be too ambitious, but maybe Ares attack? Charge through the boss, get the doom proc, then the chaos shields?
cedar spire
Definitely not crazy at this point, we need to aim pretty high in order to beat TD in terms of damage. Just a question of what's the best single boon without relying on duos probably
sharp cobalt
I'm guessing you've got a high routine inspection so it wouldn't matter, but it would be two status effects as well.
mossy zinc
@cedar spire I think 53 will probably be more consistent with a fast DPS weapon and RI2, so you always have 2 dashes.
EM3 with 1 dash is an awful experience.
You just can't deal damage to Theseus reliably because you can't catch up.
And you can't get away from Asterius to focus down Theseus or both together, either. So you're stuck focusing on just Asterius first, then have to go after Theseus still. Just takes way too long.
trim sigil
Drift dash or whatever it is called rn is unironically a decent substitute for extra dashes tbf
Casually walking out of enemy patterns
Well, if only it wasn't in the same hermes boon pool 
cedar spire
I'd love to try and find other builds that could work at 50 heat that dont require shield blocking basically. I'm thinking exploding launcher for spear might be ok with zag aspect? Have to do 0 DC for it, would work similarly to the Beowulf charged flight build
bronze viper
Hyper Sprint now. And with AP2, trying to aim for a particular boon mid run seems like an exercise in madness. Speaking as someone who has been doing exclusively Dio builds at 49 and 50 for the last 3 days, and has not yet had a single Aphro or Ares duo, I wish you all the luck @cedar spire :3
trim sigil
Given Merciful End came like, 1 in 4 runs without AP, RI and with fated persuasions, I can only wish everyone luck in gathering duos
bronze viper
I have had great results in practice at 49 with Relentless Volley Rama with Dio special. You transition into attack damage for Elysium and Styx (which I only experimented with recently). The last Calisthenics is... Going to be rough to get to 50, but with a little bless (e.g. A attack Hammer and an attack boon) its totally manageable.
I don't have evidence that 50 is possible yet but I did finish a 49 (have screenshot but unrecorded unfortunately). I tried to get one recorded yesterday but seeds and terrible play on my part were making that difficult. It's a pain to spam restart until you get Drunken Flourish in room 3 lol.
I considered myself blessed to find a seed that seems to generate Drunken Flourish with a Persuasion about 40% of the time.
cedar spire
@bronze viper What I was doing for the 53 heat attempts was resetting if I didnt get either Jolted, Double Strike, or some other source of high damage by the end of Tartarus. Feels like, despite the bane of AP2, it's a bit of a requirement once you have so much JS and CP on with TD. This kind of goes into my argument that AP2 shouldn't be a pact of punishment, might be fun as an optional "modifier" some times but I dont think it fits in well as a pact personally. But that's another topic I suppose.
bronze viper
Feels pretty punishing :3. But yeah I agree that pacts that make the game less consistent, and thus harder are fundamentally different from the pacts that just make the game harder. It's kind of a bummer that at 53 you had to roll the dice with Chaos with 1 outcome just to have a shot at finishing TD. That could have instantly ended a run at no fault of your own. Which sucks.
cedar spire
Here's hoping for a change, I think there are still plenty of ideas for great pacts out there. Maybe boons only last for 1 biome? Oh wait that sounds like a nightmare please no
bronze viper
Lol someone suggested delayed release boons, as in you get them 1+ rooms after purchase
light sedge
Some pact affecting the environment would be neat. Like having lava waves spawn in Asphodel, or having the hands in Tartarus try to reach for you and grab you.
bronze viper
Those are super high effort to implement and would have to divert quality elsewhere, so I'm less enthused about stuff like that
While I do agree that it would be great for stuff like that to exist.
light sedge
Any new pact option would entail high effort, there’s not much else that could be changed or added with minimal effort that would be interesting and fun
I’m just hoping for EM4
sharp cobalt
There are things you could add.
Lowering boon quality seems like a straightforward pact for example.
light sedge
Approval process does that
sharp cobalt
In a different way.
bronze viper
No it reduces quantity
sharp cobalt
I mean actually lowering the quality of your boons.
light sedge
Below common?
sharp cobalt
Say one rank makes Rare the best you can get without extra aid, two ranks means everything is common.
Barring Posi/Dio duo and Ariadne and such.
Basically it'll lower the quality of the boons you see.
And that's just off the top of my head.
I much prefer things like that than pacts that lower your ability to adapt and customize your run in interesting ways, like Approval Process.
static plover
Routine Inspection 1 effectively does that already
light sedge
I suppose, but that’s not interesting or fun imo. And yes, what Chaaron said
Seems like it would be double dipping
sharp cobalt
You can still get epic boons with RI, lets not be silly.
And Routine Inspection 1 does other things.
static plover
you lose your boon increase chances that's the bulk of what it does
sharp cobalt
And your fated persuasions/authorities. Which I'd say is equally big.
static plover
you still have the passive from collecting keys
bronze viper
A pact that prevented Epic from appearing in general would not be oppressive, though again, making a run less consistent to make it harder has diminishing returns. Eventually you're just rolling skillful dice
static plover
so you don't entirely lose it
light sedge
Yes, so setting boons to rare or common wouldn’t be worth more than 1 heat
sharp cobalt
And this would just force the levels down, rather than just lowering your chances.
Ok?
I was just throwing stuff out there. There are lots of ways to make pacts that just increase the difficulty without limiting your decision making in the run.
light sedge
What about a boon thief enemy which could take one of yours for the encounter and could take it away permanently if not killed, or just for the duration of the encounter
static plover
that would have the potential to outright kill builds
light sedge
True lol
It would be hell on high heats but pretty fun and not really intrusive in lower heats
sharp cobalt
This would be very painful, but you could have a pact that randomly makes normal rooms into Erebus rooms.
No hit or you lose the room reward.
sharp cobalt
Probably shouldn't target miniboss rooms, but otherwise, yeah.
It makes the game harder and forces you to play better without limiting you at all.
light sedge
It would probably have to exclude other unique encounters ie than or timed rooms
Speaking of which I would love to see more challenge rooms
Not sure what they could be tho.. the only thing that comes to mind right now would be a trap room similar to the ones from Hand of Fate
sharp cobalt
Hide and Seek room filled with Champion witches and pillars.
Though every single person with TD on would hate that room so much.
light sedge
That would be neat, a sneak room could be cool
sharp cobalt
So it's probably a horrible idea.
light sedge
It would probably not show up, similar to how times rooms don’t
sharp cobalt
You could probably have a pact that disabled keepsakes, but I'd really dislike that.
Since it just limits player expression.
Less interesting decisions to make.
light sedge
Yea.. no, keepsakes are an integral part of a run. I’d be sad if that was a pact option
sharp cobalt
So are boon choices, but Approval Process exists too.
bronze viper
It shouldn't IMO. But yeah, it's worth 5 points so... it's used all the time
sharp cobalt
My point is that they're an integral part of gameplay.
light sedge
Ya
cyan stag
Conversely- there will always be players just itching for a no-keepsake challenge.
sharp cobalt
It's the same problem I had with some of the limiters in Transistor.
I prefer things to make the game harder and force me to play better, rather than things that let me play the game less and think less.
bronze viper
Players limiting themselves is very different than the game offering an "official" limiting mechanic
light sedge
The closest that would be would have to be the Duster?
But yeah that would be an interesting challenge
sharp cobalt
Shots fired.
light sedge
Hah
sharp cobalt
(Permanence worst limiter)
light sedge
Oh for the challenge rooms convo from above, perhaps a bullet hell room?
sharp cobalt
You mean the circle of witches miniboss? It's already in the game.
light sedge
Though the perspective would make it harder than what it should be
Not really tho, you have plenty of cover for that
And most projectiles can be destroyed
Just throwing ideas at the wall right now heh
bronze viper
That boss seems.... undertuned
light sedge
Yes, it’s the easiest of the three imo
sharp cobalt
It can be really hard for some builds, and trivial for others.
But honestly I find Mega Gorgon to be way easier.
Not that the barge is too hard either.
Asphodel Minibosses are kind of easier huh...
Compared to sneak.
Or Asterius.
bronze viper
Some days power couple is very easy for me, some days I get stomped from 3 inches away from the shadow then PLINK PLINK PLINK'd by 50 rocks for 4 damage and die
Though mostly my rage comes from FO2 Skullcrusher NOPE'ing like less than a second after he lands, which makes charge weapons useless since you need to spend a dash to approach him
sharp cobalt
Fair, fair.
light sedge
Slow weps against the power couple is hell
sharp cobalt
Though with FO2, the witches do fill up the room a whole lot.
light sedge
The best strategy I found to work is to strip the head of armor and having the gorgon stun it
This usually involves a companion
I do wish it could be stunned with its armor on tho..
bronze viper
My favorite strategy is to use a companion to skip the fight entirely. But unfortunately it's a terrible way to spend a companion charge since Asphodel is so short
sharp cobalt
What companions does everyone here favor anyway?
If you're skipping the fight entirely. I think what, Battie?
bronze viper
For super duper ultra mythic ghost high heat, I really like Skelly. For normal high heat I like Husbandos/Meg/Than
sharp cobalt
And for farming, good ol' Bouldy.
bronze viper
Antos is also pretty easy to time to strip Skullcrusher armor or one shot the Gorgon
light sedge
Yes
bronze viper
Yes, but hers is not as relevant
light sedge
That fight can end really quickly or go horribly wrong
You definitely need good timing
Maybe it favors Skelly, but I hardly use him
I prefer Bouldy for the sustain or Antos for the burst
bronze viper
I miss the times when I could sustain
I feel like LC4 should remove those options from the Well
sharp cobalt
It really should.
light sedge
I’m getting through on 41 with it, so you can. Tho I have no interest in playing with LC4
bronze viper
LC4 + SD is actually a pretty fun experience, in all honestly. I thought it would be brutal, but having x "mistake points" per encounter is immensely rewarding
sharp cobalt
Does Demeter's healing boon negate some of LC?
light sedge
LC4 / Stubborn Defiance is not fun imo
bronze viper
you can't multiply 0 by anything to get something not 0
sharp cobalt
Well if the percentages work additively, it could work that way.
light sedge
There is so much sustain in the game that negating it it all completely seems silly to me
sharp cobalt
-100% + whatever the boon gives %
cedar spire
I wish they would change the text on Nourished Soul when you have LC4 on, I feel like it's bait for someone who hasn't tried it before
sharp cobalt
Or remove it from the pool.
trim sigil
demeters healing boon doesn't affect lc4 at all sadly
Even more of a bummer since it shows restored HP in description but on practice it's 0
cedar spire
It's the #1 worst boon at high heat: does nothing and you cant purge it for underworld customs
light sedge
It should be changed to 0 yea
trim sigil
It should at least say "Effect diminished by Lasting Consequences" like hydralite and such
Probably worth of feedback post
bronze viper
I'll offer the feedback, it's very easy to implement and would go a long way to making Wells feel good at high heat. They'd probably have to tune down the odds for Touch of Styx and the +max health one though
light sedge
I think it’s fair that you still get healing items in the well, tho I do think the last point in LC should be worth more heat
trim sigil
As long as SD exists in current form, I feel like buffing heat from LC4 is excessive
If I am able to survive bossfights on HL5 LC4 with SD, then others surely can as well
And encounters are usually a lot more forgiving in that term
Time to count how many SDs were popped in zag blade 40 run 
sharp cobalt
I wonder if a 1 heat pact that prevented you from meeting the friendly rooms during the run would be out of line.
No Sisyphus/Eurydice/Patroclus.
trim sigil
and fountains, right
sharp cobalt
Maybe no fountain rooms.
Maybe no mid-biome Charon?
Basically the only free room is a Chaos room.
Which has its own fun downsides.
trim sigil
Combine that with TD2 and elysium and I'd throw a tantrum
light sedge
Rip getting through Elysium lol
trim sigil
Literally the only way to be sure to be on time there is to pick at least 3 total of chaos, mid shop, pattie, fountain, soulcatcher miniboss
sharp cobalt
That's more of a sign that TD needs to be adjusted though.
trim sigil
It is
But we've nothing but wait for supergiant to address that in some way before adding more time-oppressive options
It is peculiar though that asphodel is 2 shorter than elysium which is supposedly harder
mossy zinc
@bronze viper I don't agree with your AP2 feedback at all because it's an entirely self-induced problem, and there are strategies to mitigate most of the risk of exchanges—which are incredibly rare in the first place.
bronze viper
Entirely? There are a lot of situations where you're forced to take a boon. You can mitigate the odds but there will be runs that just end because of it. It's a narrow,problem, yeah, that applies to an extremely small percentage of the population, but to call it entirely self-induced is a bit disingenuous
trim sigil
speaking of AP, imagine if it also affected purge pools and charon wells
sharp cobalt
Please no
bronze viper
Pools of Purging would be hilarious(ly bad)
trim sigil
Legit way to ruin runs in Tartarus with UC
sharp cobalt
It would be mandatory to save all your persuasions just to lower the chance to end the run.
trim sigil
Or grab all the mediocre boons on the way
bronze viper
You already kind of do that
trim sigil
Well, not to the absolute extent, as poms become less and less effective
But ye fair nuff
Tbh, AP being reworked into 1 heat 5 stages of getting upgrades after X encounters makes sense to me rn
Altho it may be unpredictable how bad that will feel in actual runs
Half of Tartarus with no boons at all should be okay-ish
bronze viper
Yeah it's a cool idea but it's hard to know how it would impact stuff
trim sigil
Quite likely 1st AP will be 2 heat as you will get no benefit from free room/shop before boss
bronze viper
And fwiw I thinkAP1 is restrictive but mostly harmless
trim sigil
I thought so as well until it restricted me 2 duos in a row
mossy zinc
It's not at all disingenuous. You're the one choosing AP2 at such a high heat in the first place.
It's like taking TD and complaining there's a timer.
bronze viper
Yeah, I signed the pact to make the game harder. "Game harder" doesn't mean there are routes where the game can end without my input. That's poor design. It's not because I wasn't going fast enough, or got hit too much, or didn't know a strategy, or whatever.
trim sigil
I don't think anybody complains about taking HL5 and being killed in fewer hits
Because with enough practice it is all in your control
bronze viper
And I agree it's rare, but it shows kind of a flaw with AP2 in general, compounded by the fact that it's worth SO MUCH heat that you kind of have to take it for higher totals
trim sigil
Would probably complain less about AP2 if it wasn't possible for ideal build to occur if you try enough times
It's either free heat or game ender, there is little to no middle ground
And it doesn't serve the potential purpose that well (which is to get people to play with sub-optimal choices)
bronze viper
Also I think it's kind of a bummer that at the highest difficulty of play you can't expect to reliably use DUos, Chaos, Hammers, or Legendaries since they're some of the most fun parts of the game. There is something to be said that it with AP2 getting a common Call is sometimes as hype as getting a Duo in a normal run though.
trim sigil
Well, to be fair, duos and leggies are insanely powered if you deliberately go for them (and sometimes even by chance, like when I got Unhealthy Fixation on 40 run)
That's kinda their appeal: something to work for and/or get lucky, with huge benefit
But plain removing them or putting behind an even huger RNG wall when your run has to be consistent is kind of a bummer
bronze viper
Right, but a lot of games have 2 divergent paths for min-maxing. One that forces you to use all of the mechanics the game provides to be able to succeed, and one that tests if you can succeed with as little as possible.
Since in Hades, they both converge to the same end-game, the latter is objectively harder and thus the former is more or less ignored as a viable pathway to compare performance.
mossy zinc
compounded by the fact that it's worth SO MUCH heat that you kind of have to take it for higher totals
For what? There's nothing in the game that requires that you increase heat that much.
If you increase heat way past any in-game requirements just to have bigger numbers, that's entirely self-induced.
bronze viper
Even at 5 heat, only from AP2, I agree that it offers an interesting restraint of minimizing the options you have and forcing you to come up with strategies around what the game gives you. But it's not just the race for high heat. It's just some unfun moments like spending 270 gold at the end of a biome with Underworld Underworld Customs only to get an unsellable boon, or being forced to replace the 1 boon you were allowed to select that I think could be improved.
Do I know how they could do that and maintain the spirit of the pact? No, but I'm pretty darned sure that it only takes 1 time for anyone new to pacts of taking AP2 to know they're never doing that ever again unless they have to, and I think that's bad design.
Someone here mentioned it before but AP2 could be supported as a mode instead of a pact
trim sigil
While Pact of Punishment indeed implies, well, punishment, I believe gameplay applications should be still important, to challenge the player in fun or at least not too detrimental way
I could go over all current things in the pact and leave the opinions to spark deeper discussion if yall want
bronze viper
I think AP2, and TD2 in Elysium and Styx represent a different type of pact than the rest of them. They contain unsolvable problems within the context of a single run.
tidal flame
at sub 20 heat, do you think AP2 is fun, especially compared to things like HS, where you can be one shotted easily?
I think there are merits in AP2 in for fun runs, where you give all to RNG
let me phrase it this way, can AP2 be more fun than HS in sub 20 heat?
bronze viper
AP2 fundamentally changes how the game is played. I'd say it's objectively more fun, or at least interesting than any other pact at low heat.
Which is why I support it being a mode
tidal flame
well that mode is called Pact of Punishment
you have the option to toggle it on and off, just like hell mode, or god mode.
trim sigil
Hell mode can't be toggled without making a second file as far as I'm concerned
So it's not entirely fitting comparison
bronze viper
The value of narratives shouldn't be undersold. It's not a particularly interesting threshold in our current system if someone says "Hey, I did 15 heat for the first time, with AP2". For most that would reduce to "I did 15 heat for the first time" which is interesting in its own right. As a mode, a 50+ heat run with AP2 and a 50+ heat run without AP2 would have their own merits, because one would allow you to use all of the game's mechanics, but one would not.
Ostensibly, with the same heat in a non-AP2 system, it would have to be significantly harder in other ways
tidal flame
the thing is that it's a self-inflicted restriction. the heat combinations are not supposed to be worked up that high. see: TD2 JS3 CP2 BP2 combo, which are anti synergistic.
AP2 is really a problem when you are forced to do that because you need that to climb 50+ heat, which, again, is a self inflicted thing
and now you are asking fundamental changes to the pact system to accommodate that restriction.
I am willing to see pact changes if they are not fun at lower heat
trim sigil
Self inflicted thing imho is a pretty weak excuse
You could say that fighting bosses that are too hard and unfun is a self inflicted thing and restart runs in tartarus
tidal flame
right now I think AP2 is fun at lower heat and hence it deserves a spot
bronze viper
Right, but what I'm saying is that AP2 is actually a cool idea and the fact that it's a pact makes it "self-inflicted" as you mentioned, so no one ever has to do it unless they literally run out of all other pacts. Which means the only time you get to "enjoy" it is when the game is so crazy fricken hard that it's kind of crushing to lose to RNG
tidal flame
so no one ever has to do it unless they literally run out of all other pacts.
I am not sure I agree with this statement
trim sigil
BP2 also was a self inflicted thing. Might have just run BP1 to not get stuck with gamebreaking combos, yeeee
tidal flame
which is exactly what you should do
no one in their right mind attempt DC2 on Zag Bow, even at low heat
pact of punishment is supposed to let you pick and choose, it's desgined that way
if you go too high, you take away your own option to pick the pacts, that's self inflicted
I hope you catch the nuance I'm trying to get at
The Pact is supposed to give options to make the game more fun, that implies pick and choose pacts depending on aspects and weapons. If your choice is to enable everything (or almost everything), that's self inflicted.
trim sigil
That's a different category imho. Some aspects are better than others on handling individual pact conditions
However, restrictions like AP2 are universal and hurt every single choice player makes, you can't majorly negate that with a proper build choice, because the elements that actually matter you don't get to pick in first place
You can't even do boonless as a proper workaround because you are forced to take boons and can take detrimental ones (like picking bad attack boon when holding shackle keepsake)
bronze viper
We're kind of arguing around each other. I'm not saying it shouldn't be in the game, I'm saying that it shouldn't be in the Pact pool. It is disappointing that for the highest tier of play, instead of having content that forces you to use the game's best systems, you have to use the most basic instead. As it stands, any conversation of "what's the most optimal x at high level" is deemed relatively irrelevant since you won't be able to use it anyway.
tidal flame
I mean I am arguing that we should not have a mode that is AP2, it's fine as a Pact option.
It is disappointing that for the highest tier of play, instead of having content that forces you to use the game's best systems, you have to use the most basic instead.
I disagree with this.
Actually I guess that's true, but that's not the point of the game
Sure the more pacts you enable, the less options you have in the game
But to me, the game is not supposed to be played that way
It's like buying a Honda Civic and expect to win an F1 race
The Pact is not meant to be enabled all at once
trim sigil
If it wouldn't be meant to be enabled as much as possible/all at once, then options will not have the heat costs
tidal flame
what does that even mean?
they don't give you reward past 20 heat
and you get a meme reward at 32
bronze viper
5 heat implies that more or less, any other 5 points should incur the same difficulty penalty. That's simply untrue though, and you can make that number almost as high as you'd like and it would stil lbe untrue
trim sigil
Each option would be just a separate mode that you can enable for fun/challenge/punishment
Numbers imply they are roughly comparable and form a leaderboard
When even same pact option has different weight based on other parameters (sub-20 AP2 and 50+ AP2)
tidal flame
5 heat implies that more or less, any other 5 points should incur the same difficulty penalty.
True. Except when you start stacking pacts on top of each other. Most people here agrees that the pacts options don't scale linearly with heat. The more heat you enable, the more difficult certain pacts scale.
Can we agree on this?
bronze viper
Yeah
trim sigil
We can
tidal flame
So to have heat scale linearly, it should be played on a reasonable amount of heat
bronze viper
Even if you make AP2 worth 20 heat, that would be nonsense, as a 20-heat run without extra bosses, damage, health etc. would still be way easier than 20 heat EM3, FO2 BP2 HL5.
This is because they operate on different axes
trim sigil
Heat being linear won't fix the inconsistencies between options though
40 heat run with and without certain pact will be different regardless of being humanly insane or not
tidal flame
so would the better option be increasing the heat value of AP2?
trim sigil
No
tidal flame
rather than making it a separate mode?
trim sigil
Because it would remain "free" heat on lower and "rng/not worth it" on high
tidal flame
I mean TD1 is free on low heat
trim sigil
free deserves double captions tbf but eh
bronze viper
The points just don't scale in a way that makes sense. Too few and we're in the situation we have now, too many and you risk making "normal" high heat runs (like up to 32) kind of trivially simple
tidal flame
I don't think we will achieve agreements here.
trim sigil
Spectacularly enough, TD is exactly another pact that feels inconsistent across heat borders
But to be fair, it's not exactly free on low since it speeds up slow playstyles a lot
I won't always finish bow games even on TD1 only
tidal flame
I just think that suggesting changes to accommodate one's self restriction is unwarranted.
bronze viper
I think it's worth the discourse and seeing other people's opinions. I'm not out to change anyone's minds.
tidal flame
And I'll leave that there.
trim sigil
My goal there is to either achieve changes in pact or in my relationship with one
Sadly it is in stasis as of currently, so that probably does have to be left
bronze viper
And yeah, no one complains when people mention that some BP2 combos are toxic and should be deleted from the face of the earth even though BP2 is self-inflicted. Because we want that kind of challenge, but also want it to be fair
mossy zinc
I'll be straight up. Changing AP2 from a pact to some "mode" changes nothing except you'll satisfy your ego for doing "max heat" now without it.
tidal flame
The difference is that BP2 is not fun even on lower heat. AP2 can be fun at lower heat
bronze viper
I mean, is it fair to minimize the value of ego? Why else do people do challenging things, other than to have the satisfaction that they did them and the ability to share that with friends and community? There is no intrinsic value of seeing "51" vs. "52" or "53" but there's a lot of context to that.
tidal flame
You can't attempt a hard thing, find it too hard and ask the devs to make it easier so you can do said hard thing. That defeats the purpose.
bronze viper
Lol, please don't misunderstand me. I don't thinkAP2 is too "hard," I think it alters the game in a way that isn't expressible by difficulty
mossy zinc
I think it's fun the way it is.
trim sigil
AP2 isn't hard if you can grind out the exact build with 1 option each time instead of 3
mossy zinc
Was fun figuring out how to deal with it at 52.
trim sigil
That's my issue with it
tidal flame
Why does that matter?
trim sigil
I don't feel like wasting a lot more hours on top of other hours just to flex number higher by 5
When applying practically no self-improvement
mossy zinc
I'm working on several very difficult things at the moment, and I don't think AP2 will make any of them impossible.
You can enable all pacts except AP2 if you don't like it.
Call that your max heat.
trim sigil
Tbh I'm glad nyan recommended me to remove AP1 in favor of higher HL back then for 40 heat zag blade run
It made challenge a lot more worth the time and innately more impressive
mossy zinc
If I do the same thing but with AP2 enabled, why shouldn't that increase the heat score?
trim sigil
Well
Because saying "I cleared X heat" and "I cleared X heat with AP on top of it" do sound different and favor latter phrase
Currently, saying "I cleared X heat" and "I cleared X+5 heat with AP" will make me uncomfortable for your time management
As dramatic as it sounds
Obviously, in general picture only number will matter for wide public
bronze viper
If someone did a 52 heat run without AP2, that would be really impressive. RI4, TD2, DC2, CP2, all the other hardest ones would be enabled.
But in our current system, that's not a qualifier. It would have been beaten by Haelian at 53, and the accomplishment diminished
trim sigil
at this point I wonder which side of the argument is more elitistic, lel
bronze viper
Both
trim sigil
Not wrong ig
tidal flame
so she was right in that
I'll be straight up. Changing AP2 from a pact to some "mode" changes nothing except you'll satisfy your ego for doing "max heat" now without it.
bronze viper
Yeah I totally agreed with her on that. But it's not just my ego or the other person's, it controls the community narratives
tidal flame
Because saying "I cleared X heat" and "I cleared X heat with AP on top of it" do sound different and favor latter phrase
Literally no one said that bro
no one look at 50 heat clear and say wow you didn't even have AP, trash
trim sigil
That example is if AP was a separate mode
tidal flame
or the same person who say wow you cleared 50 heat with AP, what a god
trim sigil
"Currently, saying "I cleared X heat" and "I cleared X+5 heat with AP" will make me uncomfortable for your time management"
That is the current situation
tidal flame
ok i'm done. let's make a new mode to accommodate the single digit of people trying 50+ heat.
bronze viper
RI4 is the epitome of a pact that you can "skill" around, but is so insanely difficult that people post runs at like 10 heat with RI4 and it's great
trim sigil
LC4 also does