Yes it can
#h1-high-heat-strategies
fallow stream
honest kernel
beo special hits like an absolute truck
trim sigil
Well, makes sense. Being hit by a good blunt 50-100kg object flying at near-sound speed 
tidal flame
I mean to say no one has scratched the surface of Beo is a bit exaggerated. We have an ex world record at 50 heat last week.
So yeah, I think no one is underestimating Beo build.
What is fair to say though is that it has even more potential.
trim sigil
Oh yeah btw, should I ping Krashercorr or someone else to apply for 40+ heat gang?
tidal flame
If you have vid, tag him and post in #self-promotion. He might take his sweet time adding you since he is busy with work and the list is getting extra long xD but I'm sure he will get to you.
trim sigil
Time is not a concern so good to know 
And ye there is vid prepared (which even showcases a sound bug, lol)
forest vortex
Yeah I agree with FoxHope, Beowulf's special build has been known for hitting hard ever since it came out. In fact it was even better in terms of single-target damage when Dash Flight and Charged Flight were compatible
honest charm
RI4 zag sword 32 heats coming soon
if Hades works on my crappy old laptop
zinc scarab
Maybe it's just me, but I find it strange that Piercing Volley (special pierces and does 150% damage to armor) is incompatible with Aspect of Chiron. That's like the only aspect I'd ever want it on.
hollow lynx
Alice12/20/2019
“are there any truly ridiculous or hilarious bugs that were caught and resolved before they made it to the public? failing that, please tell me about the chariots that spawned in the House that one time?”
...
Chrion Aspect now blocks the bow hammer upgrade that allows secondary shots to pierce enemies. The reason for this is because if you combined the two the arrows would just continuously circle around the marked target like a ball of angry bees until they died which ...was not exactly the intended way to use it.
also, chiron already pierces through unmarked targets
zinc scarab
Chiron doesn't pierce through multiple targets or shields as far as I can tell. And yeah that's a hilarious bug, but I'm sure they could have just changed it to be "projectiles are destroyed upon reaching max range/hitting the marked target"
Still, thanks for linking that lol
mossy zinc
@fallow stream re your Savior feedback: I would entirely avoid DC with Beowulf.
robust zephyr
also chiron bow and hades spear i guess
mossy zinc
Generally, I think DC is one of the worst pacts.
robust zephyr
its either free heat for certain weapons or game endingly terrible for other weapons
cough cough bow
mossy zinc
It's not free for any weapon.
robust zephyr
lucifer
with zeus atleast
still piercing fire can be a poormans solution to it
on non zeus lucifer runs
mossy zinc
I'd rather go up from RI2 to RI3 and lose a dash than pick DC2.
finite valve
so I hear there's a new heat parameter?
robust zephyr
idk its entirely removed by zeus attack since first hit is from rail, second hit is from zeus attack
basically becomes free
overall its bad for most weapons however
finite valve
I disagree, DC is free for guan yu
robust zephyr
but some weapons do better than others ughhh
finite valve
the spin does so many damage ticks it basically ignores DC
mossy zinc
Yeah, I guess with rails that aren't Hestia it makes little difference because your Attack doesn't stun anyway.
finite valve
or any build based on hangover for that matter
robust zephyr
hestia the only rail you know
mossy zinc
For everything else, not being able to stun even fodder enemies for the first 2 hits is just bad.
finite valve
what does Personal Liability do?
robust zephyr
oh yeah you mean in terms of not getting the hit-stun
i think sword and fists do better against it definitely not free but way better than god damn bow
rama bows the only exception because of the special
personal liability removes invincibility frame you get after taking a large amount of dmg
finite valve
oh
robust zephyr
its there to prevent you from getting perma stunned
robust zephyr
idk why hell mode exists if its barely any different
isnt it just personal liability and slightly stronger enemies
mossy zinc
Personal Liability is not having that invincibility, rather.
finite valve
haaaa they have to push an update when I'm away and I can't play
robust zephyr
whats the name of the invincibility
mossy zinc
The name is . . . Normal mode. 
robust zephyr
so it doesnt have some name
finite valve
I'll resume my 46+ heat attempts tomorrow with that new heat param then 👀
mossy zinc
Hell Mode locks in LC1 HL1 CP1 JS1 and PL.
mossy zinc
It's actually noticeably more difficult in the later biomes due to JS and CP.
finite valve
could I have a link to the patch notes real quick pls?
robust zephyr
still most people already use those in normal mode
except maybe js1
and pl
since u cant use that
normally
finite valve
there's another heat param added? 😮
mossy zinc
@finite valve what patch?
mossy zinc
Personal Liability is Hell mode only.
tidal flame
there is no new heat
robust zephyr
where exactly did you get this information
never heard of it before you addressed it
finite valve
horheristo told me there's a new heat parameter called Personal Liability
maybe he has access to some beta branch or something
finite valve
but I never saw hell mode before °°
mossy zinc
It's not new. Has been in game for awhile.
robust zephyr
yeah its been in the game for a while
mossy zinc
The sooner you start, the sooner you're done.
mossy zinc
It's not like you need most of the story content. And the mirror doesn't matter at extreme heats anyway.
robust zephyr
idk how worth it is anyway its normal mode with a couple heat options forced on and a new heat option
finite valve
I'm disappointed to learn than 1 "free" heat has to be accessed through a completely new save
mossy zinc
It's not free.
finite valve
certainly feels like a safer heat than some other options
mossy zinc
Personal Liability is the difference between losing a chunk of health to spin2win or 360-beams but getting away and losing the run immediately to those attacks . . .
PL is always on.
robust zephyr
how does the pact of punishment look like then
do you have 3 less ranks on the mandatory pacts?
or already filled in
ik this is the most useless question lol
mossy zinc
It starts at 5 Heat with those 5 at rank 1 each.
robust zephyr
interesting
mossy zinc
Well, PL is just 1 rank anyway.
robust zephyr
so in hell mode u can do 58 heat
mossy zinc
And you get bounties up to 25 Heat instead.
mossy zinc
Considering I avoid JS CP for most 40+ runs, being locked into JS1 CP1 makes quite the difference.
robust zephyr
same
otherwise its just normal mode with a new heat option
cant u get sturdy and counter that pact
or the poseidon athena duo
mossy zinc
And the Temple of Styx will always be appropriately difficult because JS1 and CP1 become worse with each chamber.
robust zephyr
gives them more value i guess if it works
mossy zinc
Holy Shield can kind of replace the invincibility from normal mode.
mossy zinc
And yeah, it gives more value to defensive boons.
I have one that I play on the side to have a change of pace.
finite valve
so you can only grab 200 blood total?
robust zephyr
to progress
finite valve
if you don"'t consider trading of course
didn't know that :p
anyway you don't need 200 blood to upgrade everything
robust zephyr
should say on the pact of punishment screen
if u have bounties remaining or if ur out of them
finite valve
yeah but it's not that big a deal in the end since you don't need all of them blood to max out everything
robust zephyr
titan bloods gonna become worthless after the 4th fist comes out
doubt they will make any more weapons
finite valve
I do wish the grinding process was a tad bit faster tho
finite valve
the gem is the worst
so many of them needed lol
they should buff the amount you get
robust zephyr
fishing kind of helps with that
robust zephyr
but i skip fishes instinctively because of high heat
finite valve
same haha
robust zephyr
becomes a bit annoying
mossy zinc
If they buffed stuff like that, I'd have nothing to do.
finite valve
I kinda hope they won't put in achievement for maxing out the contractor
robust zephyr
well you could do it all again
finite valve
that'd be unnecessary grind
robust zephyr
if you really wanted something to do
mossy zinc
They gave us more things to spend on for that reason. Now everyone wants to get everything immediately.
finite valve
😄
tidal flame
or lass
mossy zinc
But then there'd be nothing to look forward to buying again . . .
robust zephyr
they should make resources even scarcer then
finite valve
my approach to achievements is that they should have reasonable grinding
robust zephyr
if they really wanted to pad out these things
finite valve
would be nice if they added an achievement for 8/16/32 heat tho
robust zephyr
they probably will
finite valve
since the statues are here
mossy zinc
They should make a "had a WR with Malphon in Early Access" achievement specifically for me and Resqtoaster.
finite valve
😂
mossy zinc
I mean.
finite valve
got burnt out before maxing out weapons/pets/contractor and mirror :p
mossy zinc
That's actually an achievement.
finite valve
high heat kept the game alive for me
mossy zinc
Not easy mode 32 heat. 
finite valve
nah I'll witch to some other game soon anyway :p
mossy zinc
Do high heat speedruns.
robust zephyr
Do whatever you want
finite valve
it's very unusual for me to stay on the same game
tidal flame
I don't want to watch people trying to get out of Tartarus for several hours
mossy zinc
40+ speedrun WR is 15:57.
robust zephyr
i didnt record it though
tidal flame
unless you want to move the goal post
fathom scarab
Is Malphon the premiere speedrun weapon? Lol
robust zephyr
besides anyone can get faster if they wanted to seed merciful end and fists
mossy zinc
41+ WR is 15:57.
fathom scarab
And Shield
robust zephyr
just say 40+ recorded lol
tidal flame
speedrun?
fathom scarab
Merciful End is so strong
mossy zinc
Nemesis is probably the most consistent for speedruns.
tidal flame
people don't do 40+ with speed, if they beat TD2 they are happy
finite valve
Am I still the only no TD 40 heat clear?
mossy zinc
@robust zephyr wow look at @tidal flame denying us our category. So much jealousy. 
robust zephyr
its probably gonna become a thing once 40 heat becomes the norm
robust zephyr
speed running high heat will just be farming a broken seed then using it to win fast
reset if u get bad bp2 combo
tidal flame
well my run is 18 mins
robust zephyr
rinse and repeat
tidal flame
which is really fast, too
robust zephyr
its just extraordinarily tedious
tidal flame
I'm just humble is all
mossy zinc
No-TD 40+ LEADERBOARD
- @finite valve
finite valve
yay
mossy zinc
🎉
tidal flame
WD-40 Leaderboard when?
mossy zinc
HIGH HEAT WOMEN'S LEADERBOARD
- @mossy zinc
- @honest kernel
robust zephyr
i should change my description to women and then i can join too
mossy zinc
RI4 HIGH HEAT LEADERBOARD
- @hallow stream
- @mossy zinc
tidal flame
I am for gender equality
mossy zinc
BEST NAME LEADERBOARD
- @mossy zinc
robust zephyr
didnt haelian also do ri4 because 51 includes it
mossy zinc
Haelian did RI3.
robust zephyr
the max one
mossy zinc
RI4 record is 35.
robust zephyr
yeah idk for some reason i forgot there were 12 talents
RI3 already too high for my brain
mossy zinc
finite valve
I don't see anyone going through the whole game w/o dying once
robust zephyr
haha
mossy zinc
No idea if anyone with the talent will grind the game enough to do it. But it's not impossible.
finite valve
with the added fact that you need awesome RNG
no death possible, no damage bonus whatsoever, low life pool
robust zephyr
Nothing is impossible if you look at technical possibility it just becomes a question of practicality and if anyone even wants to do it
finite valve
that's completely nuts :p
frail crane
Also, keepsakes exist :3 so there's a DD right there if you need it
finite valve
acorn beats the teeth tho
robust zephyr
stubborn roots is pretty great though
since it heals u always
without dds or sds
also goes through LC4
mossy zinc
Acorn isn't always better than Lucky Tooth.
robust zephyr
Depends on pact options and how much health you have
finite valve
in early game maybe but from Elysium I don't see how Acorn gets taken out by the Tooth
I'm talking 57/58 heat here :p
mossy zinc
Honestly, regular chambers are more of a problem than bosses at a certain level. Boss fights are somewhat predictable, and you can practice the fight as much as you want.
frail crane
Same reason SD can be better than DD—where do you choke? Creep-filled rooms, or bosses?
Basically what Nyaa said
robust zephyr
Exactly what Nyaa said
finite valve
yeah except you only get that rez once
once it's gone it's gone
so that means you need a safety belt for one regular room at the expanse of protecting yourself from being one shot 5 times against high end bosses
mossy zinc
I actually wonder if you can refill it with Lady Athena's boons and then switch it out.
frail crane
Ooh
robust zephyr
dont think so since u have no slots
frail crane
Yeah
robust zephyr
and skelly doesnt give you one
frail crane
Worth a try though
robust zephyr
it just goes away
mossy zinc
It doesn't go away if you're still in the same chamber, does it.
finite valve
that's the high rng part I was mentioning
robust zephyr
isnt it a temporary defiance not meant to be refilled though
only chaos remains i think
mossy zinc
SD wasn't meant to let you get the DDs either.
robust zephyr
sd still remains
after being used
gives a slot for athena dd
weirdly sd refills again afterwards
so idk
tried just now
the slot remains
so potentially
but thinkin about it
all it does it refill the skelly defiance u just lost and u can only do so in athena boon rooms
its very risky if u dont get the boon to appear
and more than likely u want even be able to choose it due to ap2
frail crane
But, does the refilled slot stay if you switch out the keepsake?
robust zephyr
probably not
frail crane
That's the important part
frail crane
Exactly
robust zephyr
but only for as long as you dont lose it
finite valve
imagine the amount of rng needed for that setup tho lol
robust zephyr
its still 1 defiance slot though
finite valve
yeah but you'd have to get that run and then not mess it up
finite valve
honestly I don't see 57 heat ever happening
the lost of SD is too massive at that difficulty
mossy zinc
Asterius still uses his unchanged three-hit combo with absolutely no tell whenever I'm close to him \ behind him for too long.
@ruby cipher but you already know he can use it when you're too close. His rhythm is very predictable, and there's a lot of recovery after certain attacks where you can get some hits in and then back off. So you can get out of range beforehand, and you'll still be able to react to any other attacks he might do.
finite valve
horheristo is not interested in grinding out such thing
he doesn't like relying on rng
his shield 50 heat took him maybe 3 or 4 hours after he got the seed
robust zephyr
I agree that it probably wont happen practically
finding good rng seeds takes so damn long
you also need to map it out without dying
finite valve
how seed works anyway
I know you can get the first rooms almost the same everytime
even still, sometimes it changes
robust zephyr
i found a weird thing with rerolls
finite valve
I always have a strong version coming up
robust zephyr
depending on the frame u do it
finite valve
but sometimes it changes
robust zephyr
you can have different rarities
finite valve
I'm working on a shield seed
and 90% of the time I get a cast as my first boon
but sometimes, I get the special
robust zephyr
good thing to know is shooting casts changes room layouts and next room contents
robust zephyr
yeah speedrunners use it all the time
robust zephyr
you really have to trial and error
finite valve
this is massive
robust zephyr
though
finite valve
yeah but still
if I can get that special boon all the time, that changes EVERYTHING
I had runs where I reached Theseus w/o any boon tied to my special
robust zephyr
The most ive seeded was like 3 chambers in tartarus then i gave everything to rngesus
mossy zinc
Most speedruns aren't routed, as far as I can tell, so not really "all the time".
robust zephyr
I remember taking until elysium to get an attack boon
finite valve
I mean, the boon after the very first one
robust zephyr
on 48 heat
robust zephyr
needless to say that run didnt go very well
finite valve
fun fact: my 2nd ever 48 shield run ended up in styx after I got aphro on special getting replaced by dio
and then guess what? 3 DOORS RNG
finite valve
2
robust zephyr
oh
finite valve
maybe even higher than 3 doors but when I didn't see the sack at the 2nd door I lost it and die
mossy zinc
"Seed" is really just just the first hammer/boon. Anything beyond that is routing up to whatever point you route.
finite valve
I disagree tho, getting the 2nd boon right is massive
robust zephyr
Ive had moderate success with going for boss room then a normal room in styx but this has no real evidence towards this
finite valve
ha oof
robust zephyr
its purely rng
finite valve
what I was saying is that I had bad runs that ended in elysium because I barely had any boons
mossy zinc
You can get a boon in the first chamber and another boon in the second chamber.
finite valve
like a dash I didn't need and a cast
imagine getting only 4 boons during a whole run
robust zephyr
Honestly like Nyaa said in her feedback it would be nice to start with a hammer more often
makes seed grinding so much easier
finite valve
I'd go even further
on high heat, just choose w/e first boon you need
high meaning 40 and plus
robust zephyr
then i dont have to wait like 5 rooms to see a daedalus hammer with hoarding slash when i grind for sword seeds
mossy zinc
It would also make not using a seed a bit more viable for weapons that rely heavily on good hammers on higher heats.
finite valve
or don't if you wanna play it old school but give the possibility to people to start out with what they want
since they will grind seed anyway
finite valve
tru
mossy zinc
Well, you can just play without TD and pretend it doesn't exist.
robust zephyr
u have to use it eventually though
finite valve
yeah
robust zephyr
if u want to do uber high heat
finite valve
going past 40 w/o td is unlikely
finite valve
never had issue on asphodel or tartarus even with 7 minutes and doing troves lol
mossy zinc
You could do 49 with no TD then.
finite valve
ended up w/ 29 minutes total time with me not pausing at some doors
robust zephyr
if u really wanted to
mossy zinc
Well, if they removed TD, 57 wouldn't be a thing.
robust zephyr
removing td also removes all the elysium complaints
finite valve
man I can't wait to test out that cast rng manipulation tomorrow
robust zephyr
well most of it
finite valve
I'll go back to 48 most likely
if I can have consistent run starting with charged special and weak special
tidal flame
removing TD is such a band aid solution lmao
especially when fixing TD isn't that hard
robust zephyr
Its a cheap way to remove problems
finite valve
works well on guan yu
robust zephyr
so i dont think it will be done
finite valve
spin heal to win
play conservative
I think I had no TD, no overtime when I did it
robust zephyr
then i might just go cursed slash too every run
robust zephyr
JS3 and CP2 really
finite valve
yeah
robust zephyr
Damn thats annoying for 40 heat
robust zephyr
I try to avoid those as much as i can
finite valve
so prolly lost 1 or 2 minutes
robust zephyr
it increases the amount of dmg u need to consistently and reliably clear rooms especially when combined with the freak of nature that is BP2
finite valve
pretty sure it passed that TD1 cut
well
guan yu quick spin is all you need
the rest is just playing it safe
robust zephyr
true without td u can just do anything
robust zephyr
even though it will be extremely tedious
robust zephyr
i mean js3 and cp2 exist to elongate runs
finite valve
well, that's not a 15 minutes run for sure
robust zephyr
everything including bosses, armored enemies take alot longer
i frankly like the speediness of hades
dont have to spend an hour per run
can do with just half an hour
robust zephyr
well good luck trying that with td
finite valve
I just wanted to get that 40 heat out of the way
robust zephyr
which i did 👀
finite valve
weeeeelll
I could have used TD1 honestly
the only reason I removed TD1 is because I once reached Elysium with a godlike build
and I had to open all 5 doors
I was so salty after that...
robust zephyr
At that point though it becomes a question of do u have the most broken build to destroy everything quickly enough. Thats why u see 50ish heat have the best case scenario runs for wins
finite valve
imagine having all damage can be crit, all damage procs artemis'arrow and some other stuff that deals insane amount of damage$
reaching ELysium
clearing all 5 doors because you have to
robust zephyr
better would be a million skips
a fountain in each biome excluding styx
thanatos in elysium
finite valve
I reached Hades with 30 seconds left...
robust zephyr
chaos gates etc
robust zephyr
didnt they make it more obvious which of the two miniboss rooms has the vermin
like it is darker and glows a bit or something
finite valve
no idea
I'd like to know that lol
it's the only reason I tend to avoid hard rooms first
robust zephyr
but funnily regular rooms become more annoying
because of pact options
and 3 waves of elites
robust zephyr
whats the nemesis room?
finite valve
harder room
robust zephyr
u mean bosses
finite valve
I call them nemesis for some reason
robust zephyr
or minibosses
finite valve
yeah
robust zephyr
they have upgraded rarity boons and health too
robust zephyr
oddly the 'harder' rooms in biomes become the thing u look for more simply because its more consistent
robust zephyr
theres really no reason to go for those resource rooms anyway
its not like 2 keys= 2 rerolls
maybe then i would try
mossy zinc
I'm not a fan of the EM solo Asterius or MM Soulcatcher encounters—especially with CP2. But they're better than speedy teleporty Flamewheels.
Minibosses are also unaffected by JS.
robust zephyr
soulcatcher is the better of the two honestly
mossy zinc
Actually, maybe the Soulcatcher is affected by JS.
robust zephyr
i wish u got acorn for miniboss asterius and charon fights since they are straight up bosses
mossy zinc
theres really no reason to go for those resource rooms anyway
There is if the room is just better. Rerolls are just too valuable with AP2 and UC.
robust zephyr
i suppose but if u get an option between easier rooms and harder room with reroll it depends which biome u are in
elysium no way
mossy zinc
Taking a boon with AP2 if you have no rerolls can effectively end your run.
mossy zinc
"Hello, nephew! I have just the thing for your Merciful End build. Take this Tempest Strike from me, and then let's go fishing when you make it here!"
robust zephyr
not exactly contesting the worth of keys but it really becomes case specific when harder rooms are involved
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's all I was saying anyway. The value of a key can just be more important even in Elysium. Can't let the difficulty scare you away if you're trying to beat world records.
robust zephyr
well it might just singlehandedly end ur run if u get screwed by bad rng and u run out of time
thats why its really shaky territory to rely on duo boons imo, since hammers u cant ever lose unless u actively go for an anvil
theres also the pain in trying to get the prereqs to appear
as you said before nemesis is really consistent on high heat simply because u just need attack boon and double edge
mossy zinc
Yeah. You need core builds that have great Duo Boon potential but can make it without the Duo.
Even without Double Edge and just an Attack boon, you can do a lot with Nemesis.
robust zephyr
Also in the example of previous WR 50 run using the charged throw hammer with just a special boon
hammers are in general alot more consistent and u cant lose them
just find the seed and half your job is already complete
mossy zinc
All the extreme heat runs go for: (hammer) > attack/flourish > Divine Dash + Greatest Reflex.
robust zephyr
yeah pretty much it
thats why the few of us that try it would appreciate better hammer odds for the first room
mossy zinc
Yeah. I finally found a seed this morning, but it took me over 70 attempts in total lol.
robust zephyr
can relate
the difference between my 44 heat run and 48 one was purely time take to get a good seed
mossy zinc
Beowulf is now my most used non-Zag aspect, and I only did a single clear with it in like 3 actual attempts lol.
robust zephyr
since i did everything except ri and ap for 44
problem is getting charged throw
takes a long while
mossy zinc
Okay. JS definitely affects the number of Hades summons.
I didn't know that.
So Maxy requires JS3 too.
Then it should affect other boss encounters, too, that spawn mobs.
robust zephyr
The thing i dont like about JS3 is that it makes more enemies spawn between waves after you kill an enemy. And the time taken for them to spawn wastes alot of TD time especially in elysium
mossy zinc
I suspect that's for performance reasons.
robust zephyr
I guess but it still takes significantly longer not because of the time taken to kill the enemies but simply to wait for them to spawn and then become possible to kill
mossy zinc
The greatest obstacle with TD and 1 dash, I think, is EM Theseus.
You simply can't attack him at all for most of the fight.
And his bombs can easily end your run.
robust zephyr
Its somewhat bizarre that he can do up to 100 dmg when hades does less non boosted
the difficulty gap of non em3 and em3 theseus becomes so much larger simply because of the dmg difference.
Asterius too with melee weapons
trim sigil
technically hades has 150 dmg pots 
mossy zinc
You're also comparing EM Theseus with no-EM Hades.
robust zephyr
still
em2 doesnt do that
nor does em1
thats why em3 is often skipped when possible because it makes the fight significantly harder than its non-em3 counterpart
narrow mauve
When i get back from a few days of hiatus i might try and go for 41 heat
i got a decent seed, what's the worst that could happen
(Quote this line in a few days and lauuuuuuuuuuuuuugh)
Also, is there plans of EM4 ? EM hades would be a fun fight, regardless of heat
mossy zinc
It's funny how everyone now is like "I'll do my first 40+ when . . ." or "working on my first 40+" when before Nighty Night it was just a handful of others, and people thought it was just for pros or something.
static plover
no idea, we know there's 1 boss varient left to add to the game
jaunty stone
40+ is painful bruh
static plover
what that variant is, we'll have to wait and see
mossy zinc
I think the nerf to Bruiser and the changes to FO2 in Blood Price made 40+ a whole lot easier.
Did they confirm that EM4 is actually planned? I never saw them say anything about another boss variant.
pastel moss
its in the roadmap so its confirmed
jaunty stone
where was the roadmap again?
pastel moss
@mossy zinc look at the bottom right of the screen when you enter the game and it will tell you whats left to add
honest kernel
if you can do 40 or not depends on how much you wanna grind
static plover
EM4 isn't specifically mentioned
honest kernel
like most things
static plover
at this point it's assumed the varient is EM4
it could be Charon variant for all we know
static plover
oh god 😱
pastel moss
that would be ridiculous! and I would hate that
static plover
there's no new areas planned btw
pastel moss
it has to be redacted new variant, they must give us a reason to return to the game
jaunty stone
the upgrade would be m o r e r a t s
trim sigil
Just don't borrow money from fellow oarman-- oh god
pastel moss
i really hope they do dlc for this game
jaunty stone
crab since when did you play hades?
static plover
it was mentioned by greg somewhere, I think in he latest qna
pastel moss
i just heard they are focused on finishing the game first then they will see
trim sigil
Since idk, probably start of july
static plover
we won't know what SG plans to do till post 1.0
jaunty stone
hopefully modding will be a thing for this game
static plover
modding can be a thing as all the game files are accessible, but supergiant have no plans to support it
much like all their other games
clever otter
There’s a modding community in a separate discord, you can find it by searching “hades modding discord” in this server
jaunty stone
hm
static plover
they also occasionally post a server link in #self-promotion
mossy zinc
@pastel moss yeah, I know where the roadmap is. Thanks. Just don't remember seeing it there.
trim sigil
Hmm, one thing I noticed is that After Party is entirely pointless on high LC because it's the threshold that is affected for some reason, not the amount of healing to bring you to the threshold
Wondering if that's worth of feedback
honest kernel
I mean that makes sense
it always heals up to the trshold
so lowering the treshold on lc makes sense
trim sigil
Well, the actual amount of healing is dependent on how much hp you had beforehand though
It's not like after party erases your low hp and gives you back x%
trim sigil
It does
trim sigil
Mmm
Okay, side question. Does Strong Drink restore you all HP unless on LC4 or just gives 100% heal?
mossy zinc
It heals you for e.g. 50% of your max HP if you have LC2.
trim sigil
So the latter
I forgot to mention it would be affected by LC in the question
Anyway, then it seems to me that After Party should function similarly, except the amount of heal is dynamic based on your hp and boon threshold
Simple example:
15/100 hp character, 30% after life
Currently, on LC2 it will mean 15% threshold so 0 hp is restored, rendering the boon worthless in that situation (but also explosively powerful if you end up on 1hp, as it will restore 14%)
With proposed change, on LC2 that means (30-15)/2 hp restored, so you would get 8 hp (rounding up from 7.5). Similarly, at 1 hp it will restore 15 (14.5), while being as big as previous edge case, it doesn't come as suddenly
honest kernel
I guess thats fair
mossy zinc
Yeah, I think that would be a lot better if it behaved that way.
It's already not valued much by most people from what I've seen. So a little bit more value couldn't hurt.
trim sigil
Epic version with no LC and big health pool is pretty worthy but other variations are just more and more meh
So yeah, that change is aiming to give it some credit on LC1-3
The only trouble I see is that it'd be hard to word it in a way that both conveys changed percentage and looks clean to read
honest kernel
next step is to make healing boons disappear on max LC
trim sigil
I mean ye, that would be huge
fallow stream
I dunno.... They still have worth as a sellable boon for UC
trim sigil
You can't sell Nourishing Feast
honest kernel
Yeah, I put a post in Feedback about that.
More specifically Sunken Treasure, but NF technically falls into that category.
trim sigil
Others healing boons maybe worth selling, but I'd rather sell semiuseful boon that was given in place of "healing" than hope to get rid of useless one
weirdly phrased ik
fallow stream
Premium vintage also has that problem. Can't sell it
trim sigil
Well, tbf vintage at least gives max hp
mossy zinc
Super Elite Witches with CP2 might be among the worst Hades summons.
trim sigil
Also that made me realize all boons that can't be sold seemingly "gift" a resource to player
trim sigil
Life affirmation doesn't gift anything on initial pickup, only affects future pickups
fallow stream
True
trim sigil
But yeah my wording was a bit loose on that term
mossy zinc
@bronze viper what pacts do you want to use for 40 Heat?
bronze viper
Anything but damage control, probably 1 rank of AP or RI, it wouldn't be necessary but I am personally terrible at TD2
I usually make it with Excalibur but not every time
(at 7m)
honest kernel
farcical aquatic ceremony
bronze viper
And I'm new to 40 heat runs so i have no confidence at completing quickly
mossy zinc
I think you're going to have an awful time trying to make a build focused on revenge work at 40—and definitely a very awful time anywhere above 40.
bronze viper
I thought so too. I'm excited to experiment though
I was meming this 32 run lol. This is one of the smoothest I've had though
mossy zinc
Just even getting any revenge boons at all is gonna be difficult enough.
bronze viper
Fair, I can't do RI
mossy zinc
I've had plenty of runs where I made it to Elysium with 2 boons.
trim sigil
huh. I did have runs entering asphodel with 1 boon, but elysium with 2? Yikes
mossy zinc
Asphodel is short.
trim sigil
It does seem to suggest more boon options, but that may be small sample bias for me
mossy zinc
Well, if you get 2 and sell 1 . . .
trim sigil
Oh, right, it's probably because I never survived with that few boons 
mossy zinc
Ah lol.
I usually die to Elysium or to bow.
You know how Infernal Arms have a will of their own?
Well, I'm very confident Coronacht wants you dead.
honest kernel
nah nah nah
coronacht just want you to BE BETTER
it hurts you because it LOVES you
❤️
mossy zinc
Our resident ex bow main I think entirely gave up on bow lol. @tidal flame or did you?
zinc scarab
I know I had to put down 32 bow for a bit last night to try something more enjoyable
bronze viper
Rama is still my favorite 32 aspect
I... failed miserably at my first 40 attempt but i'll revisit that at some point lol
mossy zinc
Hestia, the better bow, walked by, and thus @tidal flame and bow broke up.
zinc scarab
Literally walked into a Popper/Savior Greatshield room (small in size) on Chiron bow yesterday and thought "Huh, so this is where this run ends"
bronze viper
Is popper the one that makes 1000 explosive shades
mossy zinc
@zinc scarab have you tried using the Volley to destroy the hearts?
Not that you'll make it either way.
zinc scarab
Yeah the problem was more that, with 4 Greatshields in close quarters on FO2, they spin around too quickly and cover each other too much to get in consistent volleys
mossy zinc
But hey, it's a change of pace. Instead of dying to time you die to sitting there for half a second entirely defenseless.
zinc scarab
So I put down bow to do 32 fists without athena
honest kernel
I just made maxy and em3 rama files if u need to practice that dm me
mossy zinc
TFW people would rather do melee without deflect on high heat than use the "safe" ranged weapon lol.
zinc scarab
I had to stop playing bow as I was starting to hesitate playing the game as it meant more bow runs
@honest kernel appreciate it, currently trying to do 32 without relying on Rama (not that it's broken, it just bypasses a lot of typical bow things)
royal wagon
How would they even 'fix' bow for higher heat?
bronze viper
lol, you mean just use special 3 times and play ring around the death pile?
mossy zinc
@honest kernel does it have maxed Jury Summons? Because I've noticed yesterday that JS seems to definitely affect Hades's summons. I see a lot more than without JS.
trim sigil
A lot of roguelikes bash defensive playstyles a bit more so not a huge wonder from me tbh
honest kernel
it does
bronze viper
I've really really started to love Bad Influence because of that
I take it highly now
mossy zinc
Honestly, Power Shots should do like double the base damage they do now.
bronze viper
Preach
mossy zinc
Or at least in that ball park.
zinc scarab
Honestly, bow just doesn't do enough damage for the time spent charging
trim sigil
Perfect Shot hammer injected into bows from the start?
honest kernel
I always felt like most rouge likes favour ranged bc engaging less=taking less hits
zinc scarab
Hestia takes the same amount of time, you can actively dodge around things, and does 150 base damage
trim sigil
Maybe so, but ranged options also get dramatically less dps
royal wagon
Also no need to time hestia shots for actual damage
zinc scarab
Yeah
trim sigil
So combined with some natural time limits, risk/melee becomes a mandatory choice
bronze viper
Excluding Chaos Shield, but lol, I feel like that aspect breaks every argument
trim sigil
It's chaos for a reason
mossy zinc
I've cleared a lot of chambers with Hestia just running away shooting. Not even dashing. Try doing that with the bow lol.
bronze viper
Clearing a lot of chambers with bow? Impossible
trim sigil
I've cleared a lot of chambers with Hestia just running away shooting. Not even dashing. Try doing that with the bow lol.
obvious key to that puzzle is getting poseidon boons
TD will still tickle you for that but at least going out with style
bronze viper
I can't even mentally parse how Haelian did his 47 with Zag bow
zinc scarab
Guan Yu does a similar 45 damage, but it's a special (so the boon damage % bonuses are far higher), requires no charge, hits a massive area, and the relevant special hammer upgrade (Charged Skewer) affects base damage instead of being an additive damage bonus (like Perfect Shot, Sniper Shot, Point-Blank Shot, etc.)
bronze viper
and made it look easy and not damage gimp
zinc scarab
Very specific hammers
autumn sable
That’s true for most aspects on high heat
zinc scarab
He also picked up twin shot to start with
bronze viper
Lol, which is why Chaos reigns at the top. The shield hammers are so bad
zinc scarab
And while that's somewhat true, you can do relatively well with a variety of hammers on most weapons
royal wagon
You could not take any hammers on chaos shield and be fine tbh
zinc scarab
Bow needs Twin Shot (or Triple Shot)
bronze viper
Sometimes they kill your runs
bronze viper
Idk, I'm pretty happy with Rama though. It doesn't play like bow, which is my favorite part. Either you go coward special hangover spam or you get 2 damage hammers and go big thicc shotgun
zinc scarab
so any luck or seeding aside, what he did was still impressive
honest kernel
rama dakka
bronze viper
His run wasn't particularly blessed past the first hammer. and maybe heartbreak strike
zinc scarab
I believe he also picks up old chain shot in Elysium
honest kernel
chain shot on rama is hilarious
bronze viper
There's a million good bow attack hammers though, it's pretty normal
zinc scarab
Yeah I'm not trying to detract from his run or anything, just noting a couple good pickups
gentle stump
So I managed to beat Heat 32 with aspect of Talos with boons from Zeus, Athena, and Aphrodite
zinc scarab
Where chain shot was one of those "hey this acts as effective aoe and a damage multiplier"
Congrats!
honest kernel
with shared suffering it's really exponential damage
gentle stump
Yeah Zeus for attack, Athena for dash, and Aphrodite's call was amazing for stun-locking bosses
bronze viper
Lol, I love that all the bow hammers be like "2-3+x damage pls and thanks" and the shield hammers be like "this is a 20% quality of life bonus"
gentle stump
It took 20 attempts, but I realized I could not beat Pact of Punishment Theseus/Minotaur with such high heat
had to turn that one off
bronze viper
sorry, i meant 2-(3+) times
trim sigil
Yeah i got what you meant after a moment, np 
bronze viper
LIke... I'd say they need to fix dread flight... but why bother
...could they make the witch mini boss in tartarus like... 100% tankier and 100% less infuriating?
zinc scarab
I actually quite like that miniboss now
gentle stump
only mini-boss that especially annoying on high heat are the bombers in Asphodel
mostly cause of the terrain
trim sigil
I don't like witches miniboss because the whole concept is destroyed by having athena boons
heh
And without them you feel punished to a degree
gentle stump
They felt like they always homed once I set benefits package to max
so Athena boons felt mandatory
bronze viper
Before I got better at buffering dash attacks with Excalibur I thought the Gorgon/Skullcrusher mini-boss was the worst
fallow stream
It is
gentle stump
Has the highest possible heat level been cleared?
bronze viper
in this patch
tidal flame
not yet hopefully
trim sigil
Each patch so far only increased max heat level cleared so heh
mossy zinc
@tidal flame I thought of posting that lol, but too lazy to make it on phone.
gentle stump
I just don't see it possible with Tight Deadline
bronze viper
i thought the last RI was the bottleneck
royal wagon
I will be shocked if we ever see a 57 purely based on losing dd/sd
bronze viper
lol, the fastest runs happen on 57 heat
mossy zinc
@tidal flame exactly.
trim sigil
I don't see it possible with both TD and last RI
Maybe either one of those, but not both
royal wagon
Also I'm re-watching haelians 47 bow, and he had dio dash/call that put in a reasonable amount of work
mossy zinc
Also, the Witches Circle doesn't get Seeker or any BP perks.
No minibosses get perks.
bronze viper
don't give them any ideas
trim sigil
bronze viper
i see it, thanks! huh, i thought there was one that granted DC hearts
or is that what "briefly invulnerable" means
trim sigil
Indeed
mossy zinc
Cloners are exclusive to Tartarus. Burners are exclusive to Asphodel. Poppers are exclusive to the Exalted. And Seekers are exclusive to ranged enemies.
bronze viper
lol, not that brief on some weapons, but yeah
trim sigil
thinking of it, savior could be limited to only give 1 blue heart max
Altho still a bit weighed towards screwing with slow attacks
bronze viper
Bow triggering intensifies
mossy zinc
And certain BP2 combos are banned.
trim sigil
obvious solution is to add Sturdier that will give enemies iframes per hit so fast weapons will pull hair, too
trim sigil
brb going to feedback channel /s
bronze viper
lol
zinc scarab
I feel like Tartarus witches probably shouldn't be able to get cloner, but that's just me
mossy zinc
I think a perk that just ends your run if you're not a girl would be great.
Would help with the competition.
zinc scarab
how many "brb gonna get a quick gender swap to play this game" do you think would fill up this discord
honest kernel
trim sigil
Actually, now that I think of it, that would be pretty homophobic perk
mossy zinc
See, Toffel likes my idea.
bronze viper
Lmao
mossy zinc
No it would just target all of my competition coincidentally.
Coincidentally.
I swear.
tidal flame
yeah, sure
bronze viper
I feel like it already is kind of an implicit perk. I see lots of male streamers make decisions probably only men would make
mossy zinc
tidal flame
this conversation is heading down a slippery slope
trim sigil
Just make aphro give you unhealthy fixation from the start if you are a girl
Seems like a decent measure
mossy zinc
That's an excellent idea.
tidal flame
hello fellow girls, how are we doing today
mossy zinc
tidal flame
one Unhealthy Fixation please
bronze viper
i just found out she's not wearing anything. After like 150 runs. I'm not sure how my brain glossed over that
trim sigil
Obviously, boys can't really be left with nothing, so they will get twice as many bouldy boons
bronze viper
Am gay, but still, kind of important detail
trim sigil
i just found out she's not wearing anything. After like 150 runs. I'm not sure how my brain glossed over that
i was a bit quicker at that. Made me want skip her dialogue in case parents go in
(in fact that's exactly what happened at the start of 40 heat run)
bronze viper
NO MOM I'M JUST SPEEDRUNNING
trim sigil
THIS IS A VIRUS I SWEAR, JUST GIVE ME A MOMENT TO DELETE IT
zinc scarab
GET OUT OF MY ROOM MOM I'M DOING HOMEWORK
tidal flame
I made Styx in 9 mins
of course I got 4 sack RNG to screw my PB
zzz
game why you hate me
bronze viper
i can't even make elysium in 9m every time. Like, just elysium
tidal flame
go demeter fists with Merc End
mossy zinc
Gotta go faster.
tidal flame
if you want speed
bronze viper
lol, my favorite aspects are Excalibur and Rama. I'm not terribly concerned with speed I guess.
sharp cobalt
I can barely beat Elysium in 9 minutes just for Elysium, if that makes you feel any better.
trim sigil
I got full zeus spear in tartarus and still spend 7 minutes on each of elysium and styx
mossy zinc
That kinda sounds like a slow build tbh.
bronze viper
Zeus... spear?
trim sigil
Spear with zeus leggie
and some other stuff like jolted
But yeah ig fists would have been faster anyway
mossy zinc
Malphon with Lightning Strike is fast.
tidal flame
so fast he traveled back in time to eat that shockwave
mossy zinc
@tidal flame put that in feedback.
tidal flame
I thought that isn't for bug report?
mossy zinc
Just F10 it and put it in feedback.
bronze viper
lol, feedback to make it a feature
tidal flame
well I was practicing speedrunning so I didn't F10
now I am not sure if feedback is wararnted
mossy zinc
It's not a bug. You dashed into the hitbox. The hitbox is just stupidly big.
tidal flame
fair nuff
mossy zinc
@tidal flame https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/630312677855461377/734125929202188389/20200718_211341.jpg
That's basically what you dashed into.
bronze viper
why does the game insist on punishing me for taking cursed slash on excalibur. I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG
trim sigil
How does it punish you doe?
aside from having slow as hell attacks and no lifesteal on dashstrikes
bronze viper
by having enemies hit simultaneously for more than my life bar, like a jerk
trim sigil
That's HL for you, ig 
mossy zinc
I thought getting hit was the revenge build strat.
bronze viper
lol i pivoted when i got cursed slash
mossy zinc
You should be happy they're hitting you.
bronze viper
lmao
mossy zinc
...
trim sigil
hey that wasn't my build
bronze viper
lol, i guess i'll hold off on doing that again unless i get life affirmation in tartarus
for some reason it didn't work. fluke
trim sigil
How unviable is to gather poseidon/dio duo boon on high heat btw?
Just wanna know if it's worth even memeing with
bronze viper
is that the epic one?
trim sigil
The epic one indeed
trim sigil
Doubtful
Epic is regularly second to most powerful, right before Legendary, which name was already taken hence heroic
mossy zinc
How unviable is to gather . . . duo boon on high heat btw?
Very.
Maybe if you retain full access to the mirror.
trim sigil
To have both alt skills for boons?
mossy zinc
To have 4 rerolls from the start.
zinc scarab
It should always be common -> rare -> epic -> legendary
trim sigil
And rerolls, fair nuff
zinc scarab
with heroic thrown in as, like Crab said, legendary was taken
mossy zinc
The rerolls are what matter.
But by the time you get the Duo, it won't matter anymore. And then you probably get to sacrifice it to advance.
mossy zinc
You still have a lot more freedom at 40 than at like 45+.
trim sigil
Obviously. The more heat, the less pleasant options remain to take
cyan stag
I got Exclusive Access in Tartarus once, that was a gamechanger. Moreso if the rarity increasing mirror upgrades aren't up for whatever the reason.
sharp cobalt
Super high heat just feels like it'll be unfun in a way. Cutting away game mechanics like making you think about your boon choices.
fallow stream
Some people enjoy the challenge
I personally don't see myself going for anything above 40 any time soon
I've cleared 40 twice
honest kernel
the real strat is gonna be waiting till 1.0 so 40 is easier
fallow stream
... or harder
trim sigil
inb4 heat gets deflated and new threshold for epic gamers is 10
honest kernel
lmao
trim sigil
It did already happen so no one can deny the possibility
vast zealot
Is there like a strat for the speed run heat option?
My best run was 23 minutes idk how I’m supposed to beat it in 9 LOL
vast zealot
Thanks I guess I can’t read LOL
sharp cobalt
And the strat for that is mostly go fast.
sharp cobalt
Well, depends really.
My best is lower than 36, but I still get really close to running out of time on Elysium.
vast zealot
Most of my runs have been under 36 minutes even tho I have a lot of indecision and do some waiting around
trim sigil
Asphodel is definitely shorter than 9 minutes at most times
vast zealot
Well the runs where I’ve beaten it I’ve gotten crazy insane boons and synergies so
honest kernel
pause if u are thinking and just go faster and more aggressive otherwise
severe vector
Health is just a resource
cyan stag
Invincible logic, right there.
sharp cobalt
If you don't get hit, you'll never die.
trim sigil
Actually that's untrue. Unless you consider health numbers popping up a hit
TD exists after all
sharp cobalt
I believe Tight Deadline can't actually kill you.
It just does damage till you're at 1 health.
So if you don't get hit, never die.
sharp cobalt
Welp. I'm wrong then! My bad, sorry.
trim sigil
It definitely kills because I died like 4 times to it 
I'm sure if it didn't kill people won't complain too much
sharp cobalt
I wonder if the Demeter/Athena duo boon can let you outheal it...
Proest of strats?
honest kernel
Isn't it 1%?
trim sigil
1 health every 0.8 sec
sharp cobalt
Just get Heroic Life Affirmation too. That'll make it 1.48. In theory.
trim sigil
Well, you definitely could outrun the timer a bit by lifesteal effects
But hitting something constantly is hard
cyan stag
You mean Nourished Soul. But how does rounding work with +1 heals?
trim sigil
Just get Heroic Life Affirmation too. That'll make it 1.48. In theory.
inb it's 1.48 and not 1.5 solely to prevent 1 heals rounding to 2
There are no decimal heals after all
And on LC2 cthonic healing does 2 (while being 1.5)
tidal flame
Can it heal the emptiness inside my soul though?
zinc scarab
No, but Hestia can
royal wagon
even at 16 heat bow feels bad ugh
I know just about anything should be clearing 16 heat, but any recommended bow aspects?
fallow stream
Can it heal the emptiness inside my soul though?
No. Only velvet underpants can do that.
zinc scarab
I'd recommend Zag Aspect bow
Chiron has insanely high single target damage, but struggles heavily with room clear, leaving you high and dry with tight deadline
honest kernel
what is that, crit +10%?
zinc scarab
Keep an eye out from Twin Shot or Triple Shot explicitly, and spam dash-attacks
Zagreus Bow gives +10% attack critical chance
zinc scarab
If you can find enough other bonus damage from chaos giving attack damage or dash attack damage or you can pick up a good Hunter Dash, arty attack is best. Otherwise, aim for Aphrodite for consistency