Especially when you learn what boons gods have since they're not always worth it
#h1-story-discussion
dawn shuttle
i love dio lol
sonic glen
ares duo with dio is super worth tho
dawn shuttle
hes sick
sonic glen
it's a 250% increase in damage
unreal dagger
me: ha! i’ll beat you AND take no damage, thanatos!
me: takes damage
me: doesn’t beat thanatos
this is exactly what happened
crimson temple
I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but this discussion should be moved to #h1-builds-and-combat
primal cipher
if I've got a choice between a boon and a pom I'm usually gonna take the boon, sure, but between a nectar and a key I'ma take the nectar
@sonic glen haha I don't think I've ever picked up a key since finishing the mirror
dawn shuttle
fair
primal cipher
I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but this discussion should be moved to #h1-builds-and-combat
@crimson temple sorry
crimson temple
No need to apologize. See you over there
dawn shuttle
ye
primal cipher
Also what's the hades weekly challenge?
primal cipher
Ok cool thanks, I haven't been on the dis in a bit
blazing star
I don't know how I've never noticed that Zag is barefoot until the new trailer
i know his feet were on fire, but i thought he's got boots
restive elk
sterile mural
I couldn't tell if it was newly updated in the game, or it has always been that way and I didn't notice but:
- Meg's additional "need help with paperwork" dialogue with the fade-to-black was awesome~ xD I thought they were just gonna cycle through generic lines after maxing out but, their interactions of other deities / or themselves after becoming a couple with Than + Meg are just 😩 👌
- Noticed a flare that directed me to a fishing point in Elysium, similar to how there's one leading to Than after encountering him. Not sure if it's Elysium-only or to all fishing points in general, but if it was a newly updated thing that's a glorious addition to the "ding!" That would save the player from potentially missing fishing spots~ ✨
dense fox
You know, I always wanted a boss fight vs dusa for a really dumb reason. Like, you knock over a vase and she's so mad at you she grows a body and attacks.
But you know, Dusa does not do angry most of the time
sterile mural
Not really seeing the necessity for a body since she's pretty deadly as a summoned companion 😂
But love the idea of a boss fight too! The clean-up she would have to do as the aftermath of the fight though... probably a bad deal for her, whatever the outcome. They could wreck the lounge again for one, or Zag's chambers
dense fox
Dusa just hairgrabs Zag and throws him out onto the balcony for the fight so as not to mess up the house
It's not like Hades goes out there
And Skelly just nopes out and hides in the corner as they wreck havok
sterile mural
That would be fun! Although I'd imagine him loving being hit by errant projectiles
crimson temple
Come on people, isn't the Power Couple fight enough angry gorgon for you?
lean orbit
Well tbf, it's 95% skull smasher fight rather than gorgon
dense sparrow
Not quite
drifting citrus
power couple is 10% getting destroyed by gorgon bc you're playing melee and 90% getting destroyed by skullcrusher waves bc the dash interaction is bugged
rocky sapphire
Playing close/mid range without Athena against Megagorgon is so obnoxious. Good thing there isn't a real timer in Asphodel lol
high nacelle
One time I fought the power couple with Guan Yu, Ruthless Reflex and -dash distance Chaos curse. 
That did not end well in the slightest, lost all 3 death defiances in that one encounter and run ended in Elysium.
pro tip: never take -dash distance Chaos curse in Asphodel with 1 dash
(that was with MM on)
rocky sapphire
LOL last night I tried a few test runs of RI3 to see if I would hate it as much as I thought I would. I actually made it to Asphodel on 51 my first test attempt, which was a huge confidence boost.
Then I hit Power Couple, and I threw that project out the window.
crimson temple
I have the impression that players are expected to use friendly fire in that battle, but it is far too hard to pull off.
rocky sapphire
On non-MM Power Couple that's pretty straightforward with a companion, and it makes Skullcrusher ezpz to stun. That is so inconsistent with MM though. Occasionally I'll throw Dusa out there for poetic justice
🔫
crimson temple
I admit that thought is funny. I need to try that out sometime.
rocky sapphire
https://imgur.com/a/S1g68oK I like to imagine Dusa got revenge for me after I died 2 seconds later to dashing into the wave as it expanded out.
crimson temple
It wasn't this fight, but I remember Dusa yelling "I'll save you, Prince!" one second after I got myself killed. She tries her best!
dense sparrow
Maybe, the Hades route will let us bring the Furies into the house and open up more new storylines
open berry
non giftable bosses are going to remain in an antagonist position, they're not gonna do anything to change that, so I doubt any sort of keepsake or smth will be a thing.
or letting the other furies in the house
dense sparrow
a shrew can have hope, cant it?
open berry
if you'd like
but this is why I said that lol #ask-supergiant message
I hope that posted the right comment bc it absolutely does not on mobile
wait nvm now it works discord is just dumb
dense sparrow
So the Fury of Jealousy is Zag's gf, why didnt she get jealous with Than?
atomic forge
Jealousy is the fear of losing what's yours. She knows that what she has with Zag is Bouldy-solid and that there's no threat to her relationship.
||Sometimes they both show up.||
open berry
she blatantly says in game that she and than have known each other for a long time (potentially before zag existed even) so it's largely that they're comfortable with one another and know each other well enough to not let such things get to them in that situation
they trust each other as friends to the point where if you romance than (before meg or do just than and don't go after meg at all) he implies meg is the one who convinced him into going for it
well it was either than or meg commenting afterward, I'd have to double check later when Im not on my phone LOL but I know one of them says it
even when you romance them both, zag cautiously asks meg about it because of what she represents, and wants to make sure it's fine, and meg just scoffs at him and assures him it will
it really just comes down to meg and than's own friendship
daring ledge
I wana look into the Megaera thing
thing is, names dont always mean occupation
Her role in stories was mostly to punish theft
and she even speaks about it
your "contraband". In The Eumenides she has no name and she is there to kill Orestes for theft, for he stole a throne for himself and killed his mother.
Be Zeus my witness first, highest and best of gods, and Earth and Sun, and the Erinyes, that under earth [260] take vengeance on men, whosoever hath sworn a false oath, that never laid I hand upon the girl Briseis either by way of a lover's embrace or anywise else, but she ever abode untouched in my huts. And if aught of this oath be false, may the gods give me woes
the Megaera, Jealousy, is felt when someone you trust breaks your trust. As Zeg is keeping her trust, there would be no Jealousy
viscid fjord
can you get the chaos legendary boon on the first level if you already have one chaos boon?
viscid fjord
okay dokey thanks boss
also do the chaos boons that increase rarity of boons, does that help increase chance of getting his legnedary?
open tiger
Their* and I don't actually know if that increases the chance of getting Legendaries
I would imagine it does?
gusty stump
Have the devs said anything about making some of the script that will be obselete with release available in some way? I take screenshots of every endcard and have been digging through debug files for script but as an archivist and hoarder I want to see it all, and they put a lot of work into it.
open tiger
@gusty stump They have not, but we have asked several times. That could be something to ask at their Q&A
gusty stump
I'm not surprised I'm the only one who wants it. I'd spend money for a retrospective book or something
unreal dagger
I'm not so sure about spending money, but I'd totally love to read some conversations again
open berry
you technically already can, its just not something that can be discussed here lol but all the conversations are freely available if you know where to look
unreal dagger
you technically already can, its just not something that can be discussed here lol but all the conversations are freely available if you know where to look
where is that
lusty wasp
how do i unlock zeus's ambrosia lock? he told me like 20 runs ago to tell hades he forgives him and i did that, but nothing's happened since
unreal dagger
I havent unlocked himself (only missing him and Aphro) but from what I've read you need to get his boons and demeter in the same run
drifting citrus
get a bunch of lines about him
unreal dagger
actually nvm, apparently they updated they wiki, now it just says you need to "hear the other Gods' opinions of him, as well as seeing Zeus express a desire to reconnect with Hades, along with Hades' response."
drifting citrus
you know the ones where a god comments on a god you've picked up in the run?
you need those about him
unreal dagger
yeah they deleted the demeter part so im just confused now xD
as for aphro I need help, cause I already bonded with dusa, than and meg, and she hasn't said a word
her lines sound exhausted
open tiger
if she stops giving you new dialogue (give it a few runs to be sure) and you've befriended those three
open berry
@lusty wasp you're going to need most of the god opinions about him, and also his and demeter's duo conversations
drifting citrus
you'll know it's not a generic line if
- there's a sparkly visual on the boon
- there's an audio cue when you select the boon (believe it's some sort of bell sound)
drifting citrus
no, that's different
unreal dagger
oh
open berry
its too bad they added all the new unique dialogue cues after i already finished everything lol
unreal dagger
can I get an example of what the sparkly visual effect looks like
drifting citrus
there's a noticeable audiovisual cue, that's the same for all gods, whenever you're getting a unique line
drifting citrus
it looks like small sparkles, like glitter
unreal dagger
so when boon shakes?
drifting citrus
the audio cue is when you interact the boon, the unique audio stuff (like ares's scream) happens when the boon appears
open tiger
Hahaha
supple dagger
I think I saw this mentioned on the Steam discussions, but does anyone else think the Fishing legendary boon from Poseidon should be lowered into one of the rotating boons? or maybe be another duo boon possibility with Artemis? o .o
Also hehehe, Artemis called Zag skinny. hehehe
open tiger
I think maybe have it only require one of the two boons it currently has as pre-reqs
supple dagger
I am kinda curious what the requirement is because I've usually seen it pop up when there's probably one fishing point left... in Styx.
open tiger
Both of Poseidon's resource boons
unreal dagger
I JUST unlocked Zeus' favor 
uhm
who's he referring to with this line
and why
open tiger
@unreal dagger who's Keepsake do you have?
open berry
hermes responds to the god keepsake you're wearing. that line is for athena's
open berry
he has a unique line for each of the gods, if he shows up before the charge on their keepsake is used
after the unique line he has some general ones
unreal dagger
why did athena not have a line :c
especially since im using her keepsake for the first time
open tiger
Have you seen her before in this run?
unreal dagger
nope
open berry
f10 maybe? i never had an instance of a god not giving me dialogue for their first pickup of the run until blood price, where it happened multiple times. might just be an ongoing issue
supple dagger
you know, it'd be funny if at x1.0 release, Hades remains stubborn and is still, through bad luck, is an "update heart."
I will laugh. But it won't be like that.
open berry
zag: father we are at full release, unlock your 
hades: no
drifting citrus
not even the clock on dad’s heart goes past 7:48 
uncut mauve
@unreal dagger I know I'm late, but like, if you take a certain trinket after the Furies -> it says "the next boon you get is from this character" -> but Hermes likes to beat them to the punch saying a line like "Heyyyy, guess who is faster and showed first?"
viscid fjord
does cosmic egg help with getting the chaos legendary?
high nacelle
My guess is that it does. It says "Rare or better", so probably.
mystic mortar
yes, but the legendary is still only available if you already have a chaos boon
viscid fjord
i think i just got to accept ill never see the chaos legend boon
mystic mortar
take a lot of chaos and you'll get it
remember, the other chaos boons are worth the time and effort anyways
viscid fjord
yeah i usually take chaos anyways, its just its my last mission and i havnet seen that boon naturally in my 181 hours of playing it. so i just been trying to find it on purpose now for these past 10 runs and i feel super unlucky
if i can find that boon im pretty sure im done with the fate missions unless i somehow missed one that i didnt trigger
can that item that makes the chaos portal appear, appear in temple of styx?
or is there no way for a chaos portal to appear in temple of styx
mystic mortar
no, there can never be chaos gates in styx
viscid fjord
sad face
upbeat salmon
How do I unlock the last bow aspect?
frozen jolt
check the pins in this channel
upbeat salmon
ah gotcha
heavy warren
If you want to get chaos' legendary then refund your mirror, get the legendary thing, the basic stuff (dash and dd), then as much fated persuasion as you can
roll wells for light of ixion
Go for keys if you have the upgrade where they give you more persuasion
normal kiln
i swear it took me like 150 hours to get the chaos legendary
dunno what the chance for it to drop actually is tho
daring ledge
Heart with timer means its not in the game yet?
crimson temple
Yes. Only two characters have timer hearts.
daring ledge
well then got am both
open berry
Poseidon already calls the dead filth so that's not surprising
unreal dagger
Hes a cooler theseus
open berry
dunno what he has to do with this lol
fallow nova
so fun fact, Skelly cannot be summoned against Charon. Wonder why.........😉
unreal dagger
Thats poseidon is an ahole in disguise
Theseus is just an ahole
XD
so fun fact, Skelly cannot be summoned against Charon. Wonder why.........😉
Cause he works for charon?
mystic mortar
We all work for charon
unreal dagger
Same reason you cannot use meg or than on hades
Charon owns the underworld monopoly
Literally
mystic mortar
bro I want his HAT
unreal dagger
They are called charon's obols for a reason
mystic mortar
he gets your obols when you die
so why does he let you buy his stuff?
mystic mortar
He knows you'll die eventually
it'll probably happen faster without his goods, too.
unreal dagger
I mean, cannonically charon wants us to get out
hasty jungle
Would be fun that Charon has some sort of hidden language that you need to solve to translate and understand some deep secrets he tells you from the start
mystic mortar
HUUUURRRRRRRRRRRNNGH
unreal dagger
I bet he does, just no one has deciphered it yet
mystic mortar
translation: "bro, you're going the wrong way"
unreal dagger
Just buy my stuff dawg
sonic glen
I would pay all the diamonds/ambrosia/titan's blood to have charon still moan like always but have a translation in the box
hasty jungle
lol "Zagreus I'm you mother you fool !"
sonic glen
or just zag always making one up a la "Lassie"
mystic mortar
What's that charon?
Is the light of Ixion in the well again?
unreal dagger
"Your mother said hello ;)"
hasty jungle
I have a theory about Skelly tho, and I like it A LOT
unreal dagger
What is it
unreal dagger
Inb4 hes a dev in disguise spoiling stuff
hasty jungle
Hehehe 3:)
Well here it is, maybe it's pretty obvious or basic but I like it either way:
|| I think Skelly might be a titan that has been banished and that in the final release, he'll be the final boss to beat. No one knows who he is, and he once told me that he'd be free when I'll be. So when we will escape he will be able to gain his titan's powers again and will try to beat our ass pretty hard for all the punching we did on him. For now, he's just powerless, condemned to an endless suffering until we allow him to be free ||
sonic glen
||small problem, they've confirmed that they aren't adding more bosses||
unreal dagger
^
Also, in that case charon would be aware of the situation, and why charon would do that
hasty jungle
I didn't know that, but maybe i'm not totally wrong, because he also looks like some || titan||
Why would he be if no one in the palace knows him ?
i'm almost sure there's something wrong with him ! What do you think ?
mystic mortar
||haha lolz gottem||
||there's no spoiler here||
the only problem with skelly is that he's|| bored and possibly insane||
sonic glen
I like the theory that ||he's heracles getting punished finally||
hasty jungle
But if it was just that, how comes that no one knows who he's with all the control they have on hell
hasty jungle
Oh ? Why so ?
sonic glen
gods don't need a ride from charon
mystic mortar
you stuck a coin there to pay for charon's labor ferrying mortals down
sonic glen
definitely not
mystic mortar
lol no
hasty jungle
I'm not good at mythology sorry xD
sonic glen
they're imprisoned, not dead
hasty jungle
It's a shame not seeing titans in a mythology game tho
unreal dagger
gods don't need a ride from charon
But one of the lines for vanquishing hades he says "charon, take me home"
sonic glen
they'd be just more gods, really
unreal dagger
Skelly is daedalus, charon wants him to take care of the weapons while zag is out
sonic glen
titans aren't really a special category in greek mythology
mystic mortar
He's tired and just got beat to a pulp, I don't think I'd want to walk back home at that point either
easier to sit in a ferry
sonic glen
in fact, life under the titans was great for mortals
they were kinda mean to the gods tho
mystic mortar
great, except that there was no technology and they occasionally got eaten for fun
not that the gods are much better
sonic glen
notably, things weren't much better under the gods until prometheus did his thing
tech-wise
hasty jungle
But why is he so mysterious about his identity ? And why, as a mortal, isn't he a soul to vanquished during our run ?
mystic mortar
got punished eternally for doing it too lol
sonic glen
people theorize that he's any number of heroes that aren't theseus or achilles
though about half of them were put into the stars instead of dying normally
and heracles never died, according to the version I know
hasty jungle
mmh got it
urban grotto
I remember Zagreus mentioning him to Hades during one of their convos abt a champion, so idk abt that?
most versions I’ve read say Heracles is in Olympus, but there’s always artistic liberties taken w/ depictions like this so it’s possible he’s in the underworld
ofc I don’t remember the exact conversation, so it might not have implied he’s down there
open berry
its implied heracles is in the underworld in the game's timeline
heavy warren
No way Skelly is heracles
urban grotto
ah so I’m not misremembering k good to know
heavy warren
He's too eccentric and... thin
urban grotto
altho yeah I’d highly doubt that theory
open berry
during your first encounters with theseus zag will question his father about it, about heracles, insinuate something to the effect of, what, couldnt get anyone else to take the job of dealing with me? and hades will remark that heracles is lucky to be related to zeus or he would be in tartarus where he belongs
urban grotto
it’s possible but implausible
heavy warren
I mean in terms of personality traits, Skelly is -
-Eccentric
-A little full of it
-Smarter than he acts
So find somebody that fits one or more of those before you start calling out names 😛
open berry
if you speak with hermes enough he'll ||remark on someone he took to the underworld that is still making amends, but was a liar and a cheater and perished at the business end of a spear. which is implied to be skelly he's referring to, so it's definitely not a hero||
well its not a direct implication and could potentially still refer to something else but ||none of it pops up until you start finding out about who they're working for and the like so its a strange coincidence if its not related||
feral flower
I was joking when I said Skelly was Heracles.
If he's a hero, he's probably like... Odysseus, maybe?
open berry
i doubt it
with full release being around the corner i dont feel like theyre gonna pull something like that, you would need more backstory fed into the game
feral flower
Well they're expanding everyone's backstory more or less.
So they have to do -something- with Skelly.
Revealing his identity is fairly likely to happen.
open berry
yeah but i dont think hes someone unrelated to the family mess, is what i mean. my personal feeling is that he is going to be involved with zag in some way beyond just being the skeleton in the courtyard you beat up. i dont think hes going ot be some random greek hero or anything
sullen vessel
I think the most interesting thing about skelly is the fact he still has his obol, which might imply he never paid his fare to charon
open berry
we know zag has mortal blood so for all we know skelly will end up related to that mortal side in some manner. thats not to say i think hes going to end up being zags father or something lol but some sort of relation that ties him into everything going on
feral flower
I don't feel like he'll be part of the family. We've got enough family related plot already.
open berry
well i dont think hes gonna be some random dude so we'll agree to disagree ¯_(ツ)_/¯
feral flower
Zagreus honestly doesn't have many friends that aren't part of his extended family.
Yup! We'll find out.
hasty jungle
Seems like I started a debate about Skelly lel
But that's great, it means there's still to discover
open berry
its okay half the time i discuss hypnos i start a debate around him unintentionally lmao
hasty jungle
What debate could be around hypnos ? I find him to be pretty transparent, like not much about him
open berry
@hasty jungle the fact you say that is precisely why hes a passionate topic for me
hasty jungle
tell me more ! :p
open berry
god i want to but i dont have time to unravel my list of grievances rn LOL mostly i feel theres a disconnect between him and everyone else in the house (yes even after the thanatos quest, before someone remarks on that)
hasty jungle
just a little step apart, when there's doors with gods, do you always go for chaos or not ? Like I wonder when going for chaos is the choice to do
open berry
most people go for chaos, unless you're just really hurting for boons
heavy warren
Chaos is for more damage on your primary attack source
So if one of the doors has a boon of that that you need go for that
If not Chaos to stack it up
hasty jungle
Well I've take chaos, good choice because apparently I'll unlock one of the new 4th weapons aspects :p
hasty jungle
It may be it
feral flower
Hypnos is explicitly called out as being different from everyone in the house.
He's like a big cheerful oddity in all the gloom.
unreal dagger
I love hypnos
He deserves more screentime
Other than hey, the bull of minos beat the crap out if you, did you get his autograph?
open tiger
That's pretty cheerful!
unreal dagger
He event got the best keepsake
sonic glen
I loved giving hypnos ||the autograph||
here's a thought about skelly: ||he might be one of the humans who killed persephone's flower nymph friends by killing the flowers that the nymphs were attached to; she did a big ole act of wrath that changed her name from Kore (maiden) to Persephone (Bringer of Death)||
crimson temple
I came up with the theory he is Tantalos, who, like Sisyphus, is renowned for the punishment in the Afterworld imposed on him by the Gods. Most importantly being rooted to the spot, out of reach of what he yearns for.
Among his crimes are stealing nectar and ambrosia from the gods, and feeding one of his sons to them.
(Well, the last part would likely be left out of a family-friendly work).
sonic glen
I dunno, the horrible things that Sisyphus did are alluded to (murdering travellers that should've been protected by the law of hospitality, having his wife throw his corpse out in the town square as a test of her love and using that fact as a way to trick Persephone into letting him go get buried, chaining than to the stone that was gonna be his punishment)
crimson temple
Notably, Thanatos shows clear discomfort about Sisyphus' friendship with Zag. I find it interesting that Charon reacts so abnormally to the mention of "Skelly", that I think that there must be some sort of bad blood. He ain't no hero, is what I'd say.
sonic glen
Is there a Charon myth involving someone tricking him into giving free passage?
Because if so, that's our man
unreal dagger
I loved giving hypnos ||the autograph||
Wait ZAG ACTUALLY DOES?!?!?!?!
crimson temple
As with most things in this game, you'll get there eventually.
unreal dagger
Do i have to die to asterius?
open berry
yes
crimson temple
You need to run into him as a midboss quite a number of times. I'd say that defeating him and thus gaining his respect is needed, as well. Dying to him is necessary to rouse Hypnos' interest, but I don't know about it after he keeps asking.
Ugh. Googling "cheating Charon for a free passage" gives only game-related results in the broadest sense.
open berry
you need at least 3 deaths to asterius, and death to theseus is required as well. it'll take like 5-6 deaths at minimum if youre lucky with dialogue rng, but likely it'll take longer since you need specific lines from hypnos and he's not always at his post
daring ledge
can I hide images?
daring ledge
its not a link its on my pc
open tiger
you can't directly upload
sonic glen
And/or tick the box when uploading
But if this channel has images off, then that won't work
daring ledge
This
I died
Game crashed making this XD
WORTH
didnt have an aid at this fight was a bad run
open berry
you could still save your run probably
open berry
oh did it? usually when the game crashes the save tends to revert back to the house
thats good then
daring ledge
when this happned vs Hades the game went back to the last time I was at the house
open berry
yeah if you lose progress from a crash theres a way to recover it in #h1-tech-fixes
daring ledge
yea because you cant save at chiron but I didnt take chiron
open berry
just a future note if you ever happen to lose a run to a crash
heavy warren
also: Hypnos is cheerful because he sleeps through the gloomy things
fresh smelt
I've got a question about weapon aspect - ||if I want to unlock the Aspect of Lucifer do I need to spend 5 titan blood for just one aspect of Exagryph, or I can spend 1 titan blood here, 4 titan blood there||
fresh smelt
got it, however ||I put 5 titan's blood into Exagryph yet, Zeus doesn't give it to me, that's why i wonder if I should put 5 blood into just one aspect of exagryph||
||I unlocked Rama and I put 5 blood in one aspect after that it was maybe my 2nd Artemis boon that unlocked it, right now I do like 3rd Zeus run with Exagryph and nothing||
open tiger
@fresh smelt check the pins
fresh smelt
Yeah, I did
open tiger
The boons you have don't matter whatsoever
it's just RNG to get the dialogue once you meet the requirements
fresh smelt
oh, ok I thought it happens quickly
crimson temple
Gods tend to comment on all sorts of things, which may get in your way in dialogue RNG. For example, if you happen to wear their keepsake, are heavily wounded and so on, they may talk about that instead of progressing story.
fresh smelt
rude
unreal dagger
you need to spend 5 blood into gun
hasty jungle
Quick question I have a prophecy asking me ||to catch 50 fish and tell it to Poseidon, however I already grabbed like 100 and when encounter Poseidon he never talks about it to achieve the prophecy. What's going on ?||
crimson temple
Did you catch a legendary fish yet?
hasty jungle
I've already caught 2 fishes/biome. But my codex sais there's one missing also/biome so I guess it's those legendary ones. Is it just luck or is there something special to do to encounter them ?
crimson temple
You need to do perfect catches to get a chance for them.
hasty jungle
What is perfect catch ? 😮
crimson temple
Perfect catches require an almost immediate reaction (about 1/3 of a second).
If you can do that, you have a good chance to get a legendary fish.
hasty jungle
oh didn't know such thing existed... I wonder if I'm able to do it, or if I already did it, hard to say with such a little window
Thanks you ^^
crimson temple
When the banner shows what you caught, it will either say Catch or Perfect Catch above it, so you will know when it happens.
hasty jungle
Got it ! Thanks mate
Even the fishing is deep in Hades, that's the mark of a great game eheh
Ooooh
I did a perfect and got a legendary one 😄
hasty jungle
Nice
nocturne tapir
any guide on how to unlock rama aspects?
undone cypress
check the pins
nocturne tapir
oh sry
thorny surge
Yeah, aspects are pretty straightforward to unlock thankfully
Getting the right cue from the right NPC might take a while though
In other games you farm items
In Hades you farm conversations
daring ledge
WAIT
I just ||thesus spear floating after the fight||, should have I talked to it or was it a bug?
drifting citrus
||that's likely from theseus dying before his spear could be retrieved, or you reflected the spear and then he died||
daring ledge
I did the 2nd thing
mystic mortar
it doesn't really affect much
momentarily messes up his AI if it happens during phase transition
thorny surge
Yeah, he probably died before he could grab it back
open berry
i wanna say ive had his spear somewhere on the arena while he also had it in his hands once
id check my screens but also >3k+ screenshots nevermind
mystic mortar
he can hold his spear while it's also out on the arena, yeah
but his attacks are a little messed up when it happens
open tiger
Uhh
pearl plank
one of the question's answers just said there's an overarching theme to the legendary aspects of the weapons. i'm unfamiliar with a lot of mythology, so i don't really know how to piece it together for myself what that theme might be, but i'm curious. what's y'all's take?
open tiger
Huh
One of the devs just mentioned the Redacted fight
open tiger
Ye...
cloud ember
@pearl plank i think the overarching theme is all the aspects being gods or having godly heritage, like rama being an avatar of vishnu
guan yu is a god in buddhism i think
arthur i dont know
fervent skiff
Arthur was a human though
cloud ember
maybe a god king though
fervent skiff
Not really
cloud ember
like the king of kings i guess
or maybe the relation to the lady of the lake or merlin
pearl plank
all i know is lucifer fell from grace and arthur was like Chosen for a special weapon lol
fervent skiff
Guan Yu is also not a god per say
mystic mortar
good general
fervent skiff
He was more of a guardian if not a deity
mystic mortar
thats what guan yu and arthur are
fervent skiff
Even Beowulf was a normal human
fervent skiff
Well not normal but not a god
open tiger
werent all of them exiled at some point or the other
@cloud ember don't think so
cloud ember
rama was exiled for 14 yrs
lucifer was exiled from heaven
arthur maybe you could consider the time before pulling out the sword
fervent skiff
You are definitely right on that actually
fervent skiff
Even Guan Yu was exiled if i'm not wrong
open tiger
I'm not super familiar with his story
mystic mortar
beowulf?
fervent skiff
I got his story somewwhere
Beowulf literally lives alone, away from his own country
He exiled himself
Dude you might be right
They are all exiles
cloud ember
nice good to know i got smtg rite
fervent skiff
I may be mistaking Guan Yu for Lu Bu though
dense sparrow
you did mistake him for Lu Bu
open tiger
Oh
dense sparrow
but even in that case Lu Bu was not an exile
fervent skiff
I am conflicted when you say that...
open tiger
Hahaha
cloud ember
guys totally unrelated, but how to get the locked heart with cerberus
dense sparrow
i should probably change back if i want people to respect my opinion
cloud ember
lol yea probably
dense sparrow
No, i have read the Romance of the 3 kingdoms 3 times now
the only time he was remotely similar to an exile was when he was separated from liu bei and got mixed up with Cao Cao
fervent skiff
And we were so close to finding a perfect match to all the aspects T^T
dense sparrow
Arthur being an exile are you kidding me?
dense sparrow
didnt guan yu ally with exiles from Cao Cao
those were not exiles either, just other warlords
cloud ember
guys totally unrelated, but how to get the locked heart with cerberus
asking again
cause i want to know
open tiger
|| pets ||
fervent skiff
Give him love
dense sparrow
cynophobia
mystic mortar
'How hard is EM4 going to be'
cloud ember
their response scares me
dense sparrow
'lol'
mystic mortar
not a good sign for max heat runners
cloud ember
hopefully its better than taking BP2
pearl plank
interesting, i guess their theme for legendary aspects isn't known yet eh. cool... that should be fun to figure out
also BP2 is one of my favs to take
i max out EM and BP before taking anything else
then usually MM
that's a good like what, 12 heat right there? i'm not very far beyond that on many weapons anyway
i usually toss one into Lasting Consequences, and one into Calesthenics Program, if i need more
oh wait i instantly forgot we're in story-and-spoilers lol. probably a convo for a different channel
fervent skiff
One thing we have in common is that they aren't greek
pearl plank
yeah they're all from different mythos..es.. lol i was gonna say how many more mythos are left but lol. more than a few i'm sure 😅
which ones are each of the legendary aspects from so far?
i know Christianity is one
sounds like Buddhism was one, based on this discussion?
fervent skiff
We have Buddhism, West-Medieval, Hindu, Norse and Christianity
Guan Yu, Arthur, Rama, Beowulf and Lucy respectively
bold niche
egyptian myths are probably most popular from unused so far
pearl plank
oooooo
good call
any guesses on a character from egyptian myth that would seemingly fit in with the current cast of legendary aspects?
open tiger
Sekhmet has been suggested
sonic glen
guan yu is already a war deity-ish dude
using another warrior goddess doesn't seem like it'd fit SG modus
pearl plank
also looks like all the legendary aspect characters are male so far, hmm kinda odd.. i doubt that's intentional, but i feel like it'd be weird if they were all just dudes
sonic glen
perhaps mut or hathor
otoh osiris would be pretty fitting for 1.0, since he filled a similar role to hades zagreus in egyptian mythology
heavy warren
I assume it would be a character that iconically is a brawler or punches things
Guan yu is chinese btw
sonic glen
he's deified in buddhism and somewhat in chinese shintoism
he was a real person, after all
heavy warren
oh deified in buddhism?
fervent skiff
yeah
heavy warren
I just know him as a chinese character
fervent skiff
He was a Bodhisattva
fervent skiff
Atleast that's what I remember
sonic glen
only brawlers I know that are legendary are beowulf and heracles
and it's kinda really obviously neither of those
heavy warren
I think any god of war counts
or warrior
so sekhmet is a candidate for sure
I think osiris could make his way in there too
yeah I've never heard of guan yu in Buddhism that's weird
sonic glen
I suppose they could dip into native american culture, but I can't think of any deity-animals that would fit the brawler idea
though coyote's fangs would be an interesting take
fervent skiff
It could literally be anyone
sonic glen
I mean, yeah, but the range is narrowed somewhat based on the other 5 aspects and the fists being fists
I wouldn't have expect beowulf to be the shield, but even that makes a lotta sense, thinking about it
merry osprey
hey, theres some kind of summon right? how can i get it?
sonic glen
give gifts
specifically give gifts to ||meg, than, dusa, skelly, sisyphus, achilles and patroclus, and nyx to unlock sisyphus and achilles and patroclus||
and don't forget to ||talk to bouldy||
little vapor
Hey since this is a spoiler channel is it okay to talk about something that was teased recently here?
If anyone watched the recent Noclip video, Developing Hell episode 5, ||the title card glitches out for a second and says “quiver of Apollo”, I believe||
Hinting at a final god for full release possibly?
open berry
theyve already said there are no more gods coming for 1.0
little vapor
But I wonder what that moment meant then
open berry
as far as i know, apollo was potentially considered early in development but ultimately not added
little vapor
Did you watch the video? Maybe they changed their mind, idk
open berry
im not a patron, i dont have access to it until next week
little vapor
Ah okay
I think when the video releases for everyone next week a lot of people will be speculating about that
I mean if it isn’t a tease then it’s a big misdirect
Curious if it means anything
open berry
theyve said since demeter's release in january that there is only one character left for 1.0 and with 1.0 being the next update, theres only one character it can be. without full context to what you saw, all i can speculate is early scrapped content, or new keepsakes or something, iirc there's supposed to be a keepsake coming? multiple? id have to check the roadmap again
if its one keepsake then its prob linked to our final chara
i actually dont know why i said keepsakes when it hit me afterwards you dont even get keepsakes without gifting nectar to the owners lmao
its definitely late
idle thought before i crawl into bed but you know what would be funny, if em4 wasnt hades but like. vermin. i would just laugh.
grand anchor
can i be in a romatic relationship with megera and thanatos
sullen imp
Yes
viscid fjord
i really hope in the 1.0 they add another level to the shopbroker where you can trade titan blood into gems or something.
instead of waiting for a random trade titan blood for something else
chrome jay
I got already guanyu aspect and unvest 5 blood on railgun, even encounter uncle zeus several times, but still lucifer dont show up.. any once could tell me how to unclock it?
crimson temple
You don't get the message the first time you meet the god after you clear all other conditions. It all boils down to meeting them repeatedly and hope they bring it up (conversation RNG).
chrome jay
I see.. thankyou brother @crimson temple 🙏🙏
crimson temple
For now, we have Fall/Autumn 2020 as a release window.
formal vessel
so sometime within the next 3 months
wet kiln
oh no
open tiger
Oh no?
drifting citrus
oh no!
static cedar
speaking of keepsakes
dad never gave us one
what do y'all think
also technicallyyyyy the narrator isn't a new character
so maybe we get to see him/interact with him?
idk if I'd like him being more than just the narrator, tho
maybe being able to interact with him would take away from his role
fervent skiff
I remember there was a really funny theory on how the narrator was zag
open berry
doubt the narrator will be anything more than a background presence narrating events lol
static cedar
yeah probs
open tiger
I like my theory that the Narrator is Hades :3
fervent skiff
Same VA so possible
static cedar
woke: narrator is cerberus
skelly and zag share the same va
also Logan (Hades' VA) also typically does multiple voices in the same game
open berry
also im posting this here rather than in discussion bc while its mostly info we knew already there is mention of new contractor stuff coming (which is expected tho) https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/4009846212745503492/#c4577300586766340652
but ye 3k voice lines
static cedar
he has The Range for it
lean orbit
So skelly is zag from alternative timeline where he never escaped 
fervent skiff
@open berry THANKS SO MUCH
open berry
i think thats gonna put us around like 20k voice lines in total thats bonkers
fervent skiff
I was just gonna go digging for that after you mentioned the 3k voice lines in #h1-discussion
open berry
i check the steam forum like once or twice a day lmao most of the time theres not much going on but sometimes greg pops into threads and leaves some tasty info
fervent skiff
I never knew. Thank you so much
open berry
also around 50 achievements 
a chunk of which is surely tied to various prophecies and should be retroactive, id imagine. the prophecies already act as a sort of achievement system within the game so i dont see why some of those wouldnt in turn be steam achievements, like the late game reunion ones and such
we'll see how hard the hardest ones are haha though iirc from yesterdays qa theyre not gonna do any super high difficulty stuff
static cedar
yep! they said they don't want achievements to be the incentive for doing stuff like max heat runs and such
open berry
i would also imagine getting the three skelly statues will likely also be an achievement. a shame bc i dont care about those statues lul but maybe thats on the higher end of achievement difficulty?
static cedar
open berry
ye i saw that
still i wouldnt be surprised to see an achievement for getting the skelly statues, is all im saying.
static cedar
same
fervent skiff
Would we get all the achievements if we load up our normal file I wonder?
static cedar
im still at the first statue 
open berry
im sure they have data on what sort of heat levels the majority of players hang around and are basing achievements accordingly
static cedar
ye probs
fervent skiff
I'd say everyone has to try 32 heat at least once
static cedar
im planning to!
open berry
i have, i just dont find high heat very fun for me lol
static cedar
valid
fervent skiff
Fair enough
open berry
higher difficulty barriers is why i normally dont stick with roguelikes in the first place bc they tend to cater to higher skill levels
fervent skiff
But I wonder if we'd have to do all the achievements again or we'll automatically get them when it drops
If the latter happens...
Hoo boi
open berry
i wanna say i saw mention once that they would try to make some retroactive where possible
fervent skiff
My activity board is gonna be full
static cedar
that's why i stopped playing dead cells tbh. progress was entirely gated behind an extreme curve in difficulty.
also yeah, i think they mentioned they're gonna make some retroactive
fervent skiff
that's why i stopped playing dead cells tbh. progress was entirely gated behind an extreme curve in difficulty.
What bc made you quit? I know I had a huge curve at 2
open berry
dead cells is pretty and i wanted to like it but the difficulty curve got worse each update and i dropped it and never looked back. this sort of this is why i hesitated on hades bc i was like. well its supergiant but what if it falls into this high difficulty curve thing like everyone else. was happy to discover it didnt
static cedar
same
fervent skiff
I agree, but they have lowered the difficulty curve a bit for the Barrels o fun update
static cedar
ah
fervent skiff
But I don't agree with it much
static cedar
that only came out a days ago right?
fervent skiff
I had this huge jump from no bc and 1 bc that it was intense
Now no bc is extremely tough
static cedar
oof
static cedar
big oof
fervent skiff
It works? I guess
open berry
friendship ended with dead cells hades is my hyperfixation
static cedar
^
fervent skiff
Fair
drifting citrus
never played dead cells but i can relate
frozen jolt
more cosmetic items.... the gem grind never ends.....
open berry
thinking about having to update the contractor page................. 😔
open berry
i hope they do something like... yknow that one thing everyone has been requesting since forever, like increasing room rewards at higher heat
fervent skiff
I do hope so as well
But then that starts the endless loop with new players on how its so easy to get gem stuff while veterans say its too much of a grind
open berry
there just needs to be a better balance bc theres no reason reward amount should be the same on 0 heat as, say, 10, 20, 30, 40 heat
rotund sedge
I liked Dead Cells but didnt like the speed runny aslect of it.
open berry
er i said that backwards, theres no reason higher should be the same as lower, you get what i mean LOL
fervent skiff
There was a speedrunny aspect to dead cells?
open tiger
yes
open berry
theres doors and stuff you get locked out of if you dont go fast enough
fervent skiff
Apart from the time doors it was never forced on you
open tiger
you get rewards for beating each area under a certain time
fervent skiff
Yeah but those are definitely not required to beat the game
open berry
no but it feels bad to see honestly
rotund sedge
When i was playing it there wrre bonused that unlocked with a "gottagofast" approach
I like going fast but it didnt feel great to me in that game
fervent skiff
Same could be said for Hades, but Supergiant definitely handles it better.
rotund sedge
Not really in the same way
open berry
f
rotund sedge
😂
rotund sedge
If boons were locked behind timed checkmarks, it'd be in the same vein.
fervent skiff
I mean you have the Plume
Tight deadline
They all push to be fast
But both are optional
Same as timed doors
fervent skiff
Aren't keepsakes and the pact as well?
open tiger
it's not quite the same thing, I see what Toki is saying
rotund sedge
Its not at all the same thing.
open berry
yeah from my experience with dead cells i dont think the comparison with the pact/plume is apt
open tiger
Keepsakes/the pact are things the player actively chooses to pursue for a reward.
Timed Doors aren't something the player chooses, they're always active
rotund sedge
I should go back to Dead Cells since I liked it
open tiger
mechanically, not much of a difference, but it feels different
rotund sedge
But the game didnt hook me at wanting to get better.
fervent skiff
I guess its just me then .___.
rotund sedge
Its mechanically way different. If I out on plume, Im commiting tk a strategy.
In dead cells there is a whole generated map I cant control
And then i gotta magically sort it out ir miss out
Bruh, game's gotta chill
If you missed out on door choices because you didnt clear a room in sub 10 seconds, you'd throw hades in the trash
open berry
its a different mindset too, going off what swan said, in that one game its something a player chooses to activate or not, and in another its always active regardless if the player wants it or not. so when its always active, it feels more like a punishment when you dont get it, opposed to making it active yourself (like the plume) and failing to make the time
rotund sedge
😂 😂 😂
rotund sedge
Get better, my man. You dont deserve this hammer.```in old versions it was worse.. you had to find the door first.. but now there is also an option to get as many enemies as you can with some condition, idr.. no hit? and there is a simiar reward then
and it's also active.. while in Hades you can choose to pick butterfly or not
fervent skiff
Yeah I hate the no hit door ALOT
Because it literally gives the same rewards as the speed door
bold niche
Hades is not an easy game, but it's way more friendly than most others
fervent skiff
Agreed
hasty jungle
Isaac cough
bold niche
one day i should try most known roguelik(t)es, to be able to form a full opinion
fervent skiff
wheeze
bold niche
for now i just hate every one of them except Hades and maybe DC
bold niche
i've tried Isaac in around 2012-14 maybe? but that was long ago and not true
and FTL
and Into the breach, i guess, that counts.. it reminded me why i dropped FTL
DC i just happened to tolerate more.. they are all addictive, like they should, but sometimes frustration from loss is too huge to go on, especially when runs are long
in Hades you can fit in an hour or less
and i still don't know how they managed to avoid frustration from the loss.. maybe, bc escaping is not the goal here? but the process is
you lose nothing from losing.. idk how to say that
normal kiln
yeah hades really feels like it rewards you for dying, particularly early on when there's loads of people to talk to and story to discover
its like "oh no i died but now i get to pet cerberus again"
bold niche
and the House is not only a place, where you prepare.. it's really a place where you live
normal kiln
exactly
bold niche
even if you have to see Father again, you don't want to get away asap
normal kiln
being at the house puts me in such a different mindset that i quickly forget being frustrated about flamewheels or whatever
bold niche
for example, in DC you have no home.. all the place is alien to you, and at the start you have just another corpse and a bunch of weapons that don't even belong to you
normal kiln
I never really got into DC
it felt like it progressed kinda slowly between different types of challenge
and runs were sooooo long
bold niche
and after that - go to fight immediately
all the characters you meet are not your friends, relatives or so, and they are everywhere, there is no special place for you
and runs may last for hours
that is true.. however, some people manage to speedrun them.. but still
normal kiln
yeah well i never got any good at it lol
bold niche
grinding cells feels 10 times harder than gems
normal kiln
always meant to come back to it someday, but its like
why would i not just play hades
fervent skiff
grinding cells feels 10 times harder than gems
I would strongly disagree but that's just me lol
sonic glen
Hades
normal kiln
ohh yeah fair
sonic glen
Still wanna get below 15
sonic glen
I got 16 something on Arthur not too long ago
normal kiln
think my record is like 20:02 or something
and i've not freakin clue how i got that, as i tried to beat it a while back and i didn't even get close
normal kiln
solid ngl
i used to use the plume all the time, until i realised that i am very slow and should use literally any other keepsake
normal kiln
nice
normal kiln
isn't it the normal way of playing fast?
this
dunno how you would run hades fast without being reckless
sonic glen
Well, good timing and reflexes can substitute
If you just dodge everything, you won't need to trade hits
normal kiln
i mean, sure
the really top tier speedrunners only take hits when they want to
but trading hp for time seems like a valid strat to me
if it works it works
gusty stump
Charon has no chill at aaaaalll WTF. I had a good build and got wrecked.
merry osprey
hey, how can I unlock that heart with a lock in some characters?
open tiger
you need to complete a favor for them, which varies based on the character
upbeat salmon
@rotund sedge the dialogue I'm talking about is the first time you beat Hades he says "How...did you...Fine. Go. Go. Get out of here!" And Zag says. "Fine, I will. Goodbye Father." or something like that, I just think it would be fitting for that dialogue to having a lasting impact.
rotund sedge
Somebody mentioned that once we get the true ending, we won't get the beta winscreen deaths anymore
it'd make me sad to not see those again.
upbeat salmon
The one's where the narrator kills you?
rotund sedge
yeah
upbeat salmon
I mean, it makes sense, it does suck to see all that funny dialogue get tossed though.
open berry
well they have had content that was meant just for early access players. theres old lines you already cant get in the game anymore back from when the final run bosses were the hydra and theseus
upbeat salmon
oh
Wait there was a time when Hydra was the final boss? Damn those speedruns must've been insane
open tiger
At one point (after that) there was apparently also a Hydra skip that was possible
open berry
when the game first came out you only had tartarus and asphodel, elysium didnt get added til like 5 months later
and styx was 3 months after that
roughly
drifting citrus
hydra skip was cool, but it was removed (but then speedrunners started getting faster times despite the removal anyways, so it all worked out)
upbeat salmon
yeah I've seen Hydra skip from some old Haliean runs
open berry
wasnt skip patched because it was breaking things, checks
oh yeah it had the risk to break ai, fair https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/477164376496013323/693153106594234519
i only pulled it off like once right before it got patched lol
drifting citrus
getting partial and full skips as a regular player was one of the best feelings in the world lol
upbeat salmon
you basically blew up Hydra with a crap load of damage as fast as you could I think
If it worked it would skip all his head phases
upbeat salmon
yeah from what I understand the timing was mega tight, like you had to hit him with all your damage on the moment of the fight
drifting citrus
you used battie the first moment you can, as it did enough damage and was fast enough
you also attacked as soon as you were able, after summoning
if you did enough damage fast enough, you skipped the first invincibility shield. and since that first one never popped, the rest didn't either
(this was also back when hydra had three invincibility phases, not just two)
upbeat salmon
ahh
wispy goblet
ahhhh
so my friends convinced me to build a desktop so i did and the first game i got was Hades because i'd been dying to play it. i JUST got to the end after dying to Hades with his surprise 2nd phase. Made it right back up with some tweaks to the build and wrecked him. My hands are shaking and my throat is dry. I can't believe i waited so long to get Hades 😩
the Stubborn Roots powerup was trully the MVP
open tiger
Woohoo!!
normal kiln
stubborn roots is truly a good friend
you basically blew up Hydra with a crap load of damage as fast as you
that's kinda hilarious
the speedrun hack is "deal damage fast" 🤔
if it skips the phases it makes sense tho
drifting citrus
what's hilarious was that, after it was removed, speedrunners still found ways to deal more damage and get faster times regardless
open berry
skipping phases would break hydra a bit lmao if you check old videos of hydra skip you can see sometimes instances of like. the platform coming to take zag to the next area, while theres still mini heads alive
open tiger
https://imgur.com/SwA6PgO
@ SGG is this you? :3
thorn compass
and many, many more
open tiger
https://imgur.com/k35uyWy
I dunno if this is because I've been finishing up the Contractor stuff, but very good timing
daring ledge
I cant breath
fervent skiff
??
atomic forge
what's hilarious was that, after it was removed, speedrunners still found ways to deal more damage and get faster times regardless
@drifting citrus
The real skip was the friends we made along the way
unkempt sapphire
I can't remember if this is true but can the gods of olympus hear zagreus when he talks to them?
open berry
boon communication is one-sided. zag can hear the gods but they can't hear him. I think the exception is when he gives them an offering
bold estuary
i've defeated EM3 theseus after getting the prophecy (sea-god's spite) and have since talked to poseidon several times, but he's not bringing it up... is there something i'm missing?
don't tell me i have to get a boon of his in styx immediately after beating EM3 theseus in that run...
open tiger
Not immediately, no
bold estuary
phew
open tiger
It's still just a bit of RNG, if it's takes more than a few encounters of generic dialogue, it
bold estuary
all right, sounds like a plan
sudden tulip
am i the only one who thinks 8888 darkness is a bit too much
considering the darkness grind is hard as it is for persuasion and authority
are there enough diamonds in the pact rewards alone rn? for all the contractor stuff
i wish it'd just be diamond instead of darkness, the rest of the game had darkness only for the mirror
i'd take this to feedback but i just wanted to know if other people think that way
fickle comet
I think 8888 is fine.
dense sparrow
It is a bit much, but not too much
cloud geode
Start milking your cows cause you gotta farm mate
sudden tulip
problem is i have to choose between blood and darkness and rn I want more aspects
most darkness is just from troves rn
dense sparrow
darkness give +5 hp doe
sudden tulip
i cant tell if thats sarcasm lol
10/12 darkness might as well be nothing compared to troves
dense sparrow
then prioritize darkness over gemstones
you dont need that much money if you are styngy
fickle comet
The truth is: I am right.
fervent skiff
Continuing from #h1-discussion. But wwe also have the fact that Dad literally whoops our butts at the end
fickle comet
fervent skiff
I agree
leaden epoch
Maybe we are all right.
leaden epoch
Our own perceptions are all true for ourselves.
mystic mortar
If anything he's protecting us from the narrator
open tiger
also, Hades has mentioned multiple times that he's tried to leave himself
leaden epoch
So no one is wrong 😄
open tiger
and he can't
leaden epoch
Yes. Just you are wrong.
fervent skiff
fickle comet
I'm also left.
leaden epoch
I agree.
open tiger
No, I'm left, or at least I'm leaving :3
fickle comet
Left by everyone. 
mystic mortar
I think this is the only time I've ever actually seen a conversation migrate across channels
leaden epoch
I feel bad for Hades, really. Swan is right. He's pretty bluntly stated that he's trapped in the underworld. Not only that, but the love of his life left him to raise their son alone.
leaden epoch
All the while, he's trying to run the underworld by himself, a really hard and unrewarding job.
fervent skiff
Byeeeeeeee
leaden epoch
And we don't know if this version of Hades actually asked for it.
rocky sapphire
I don't think their fight on the surface is really indicative of that lol... I think they're both pretty clearly equal players.
fickle comet
but the love of his life left him to raise their son alone.
left him to leave Lady Nyx to raise his son alone.
leaden epoch
I mean, do we really know for sure that Hades did nothing to raise the boy? How much do we actually know of his early childhood?
fervent skiff
A good amount actually
restive flame
He's not exactly running it by himself, but some of the help seems to leave something to be desired
fervent skiff
It was Achillies that taught Zag a lot of stuff
leaden epoch
Obviously, Hades is not a very good dad, but he did get put in a pretty bad situation.
And he handled it badly.
restive flame
I get the impression the thing that winds Hades up the most about Zagreus is that he graduated from being an ineffective helper to actually causing chaos
rotund scarab
Apollo confirmed right? https://i.imgur.com/lwLw0bE.png
fervent skiff
Obviously, Hades is not a very good dad, but he did get put in a pretty bad situation.
So you agree?
Apollo confirmed right? https://i.imgur.com/lwLw0bE.png
Most likely not
rocky sapphire
Pretty sure most of Zag's parenting came from Nyx and Achilles. It feels disingenuous to call Hades an abusive father if he wasn't really ever present in that capacity. Absent father, sure.
fickle comet
Negligence is a form of abuse.
fervent skiff
That's a bit too extreme to say, but I concur
leaden epoch
I think both of them have made mistakes, and I think Zag has done his fair share to escalate things.
rocky sapphire
In this case? Maybe not. Hades would pretty clearly make for a terrible dad. Maybe not being there was better.
feral flower
We've had enough flashbacks of him belittling and insulting Zag for me to qualify it as abuse.
fickle comet
^
fervent skiff
^^
fickle comet
^^^
open tiger
^^^^
fervent skiff
^^^^^
leaden epoch
Neither one of them is good at communicating, but I think it falls squarely on Hades shoulders as the ostensibly older and wiser person to handle these situations more gracefully.
fervent skiff
We also do have the cutscene where zag gave a try at handling the records
And Hades doing almost nothing but berating him
restive flame
it wasn't a very good try
rocky sapphire
That struck me as a combination of Zag really giving 0% effort and Hades being a bad boss.
fierce tendon
It not being a good try doesn't call for being verbally abused
fervent skiff
^
feral flower
When your employee is your son, being an abusive boss and an abusive father can go hand in hand.
fickle comet
Hades seems to very much just deliberately set him up for failure—consciously or not—so he can confirm his own bias.
fervent skiff
feral flower
Sure, Zag could try harder. Or Hades could try to teach him the work better and give him incentive to learn it, and then he'll try harder.
fickle comet
Even the color of Zagreus's eyes is a failure in Hades's . . . eyes.
rocky sapphire
I guess that's what I'm kind of arguing around. I don't think Zag really had any reason to think of Hades as a father figure from the beginning.
fierce tendon
We also see that, whilst Zag does not care for the job he is given, no attempt is made to rectify this or find a job that would be more suitable
leaden epoch
Hades see Zagreus as ungrateful and lazy, and he's not entirely wrong in that regard. Hades has been trying to raise Zagreus by himself. Zag has never met his mother. Nyx was filling in, sure, but Hades was left by the woman he loved enough to have a son with. His only son, mind you. And he still has the underworld to run! A job that he didn't choose to do, but does out of duty(Maybe, I'm not 100% sure this is true, especially given the actual lore of how Hades came to rule the underworld). It's heavily implied that he cannot leave. Zag, meanwhile, has never tried to see things from his father's perspective, which is typical of children. He doesn't learn quickly, slacks at his work, and chooses not to do it because it's boring. Hades doesn't know what to do with him and obviously doesn't understand how to teach him to do the things that he does and since both of them are bad at communication, it boils over without them ever coming to a resolution.
rocky sapphire
Just that dbag down the hall who shares my godly DNA
bold niche
guess, the nepotism doesn't characterize Hades as a good person as well
leaden epoch
There is fault on both sides, but more of it rests on Hades' shoulders for not being a responsible parent. The underworld is definitely a heavy responsibility, but Zagreus is his son and should come first. Hades is the adult. Zag is basically a rebellious teenager. The analogy isn't perfect, since they're immortal greek gods, but you can see what I'm getting at.
fierce tendon
Heck, Zag could have done a decent job of things if he was just tasked with "help Cerberus by killing rats and Satyrs"
leaden epoch
There are also a lot of things we don't know for sure, like why Hades can't leave the underworld and why Persephone felt she had to leave forever and abandon her son, but I honestly think that learning more will only paint Hades in a more sympathetic light. To be plain, I don't think Hades actions are excusable, but they're understandable. He doesn't have infinite patience or power, and everyone cracks under a certain amount of weight.
fierce tendon
It would keep him busy, away from records, with Cerberus and give him an way to vent frustration
bold niche
well, if Hades will leave the underworld, who will be there to rule it?
rocky sapphire
Zag was parented though... Achilles and Nyx did a great job. He's polite, empathetic, and capable. It didn't fall "Squarely on Hades' shoulders" There were other people there to pick up his slack.
restive flame
abuse isn't just in the action, though, I don't think Zagreus shows signs of being significantly abused. if anything, he's driven by the criticism. it's also difficult to tell what equivalent age we should consider Zagreus, if he were a child I'd be more inclined to agree, but he acts like an adult
bold niche
maybe, his duty is what stops him
fickle comet
Well, yeah, abusers are always understandable on some level. Unless it's just pure sadism. Although, you could also understand that.
fervent skiff
feral flower
I'm sure the plot will try to make me pity Hades. But it would take a lot for me to do it. Understandable and forgivable are also big gulfs to cross.
fierce tendon
We don't know if the indolence is Zag's nature, or if it developed to spite his father
rocky sapphire
I also kind of get the impression that Hades accuses everyone of insolence and incompetence, which doesn't make it better, but further distances him doing it to Zag as a father/son relationship
mystic mortar
"indolence"
never sleeps or even sits down
bold niche
i can assure you, if Zag wouldn't be so bold, he would've already be broken and humble, doing what was expected, without any attempts to leave even the House
fierce tendon
He also overslept in the Admin flashback, Lysol, and put in next to no effort
feral flower
And I'd say that Zagreus does she signs of abuse. He's got a need to make everyone else happy, and he's constantly seeking approval from substitute familial figures. He acts out, is bad at sharing how he's feeling with other people, constantly flings himself into situations where he's likely to get hurt and die...
fickle comet
I'm very sure Hades would have told him he's late no matter what time he arrived.
feral flower
Lots of signs of an abused individual.
rocky sapphire
And I'd say that Zagreus does she signs of abuse. He's got a need to make everyone else happy, and he's constantly seeking approval from substitute familial figures. He acts out, is bad at sharing how he's feeling with other people, constantly flings himself into situations where he's likely to get hurt and die...
@feral flower A lot of these are hallmarks of being human as well.
mystic mortar
there's no clock and no sundial
HOw could he be late?
feral flower
But he's not human :3
rocky sapphire
Lol, he def is partially, that's a huge plot point
leaden epoch
Zag doesn't seek to make these people happy because he needs their approval, he does it because he's a genuinely good person at heart.
feral flower
Quarter human! Also I was just being silly.
mystic mortar
You know who's really abusive? the house contractor
leaden epoch
The way he approaches relationships with Than, Meg, and Dusa are extremely mature.
fervent skiff
Is it Zag or the player?
mystic mortar
they painted a wall like it's an exit
feral flower
Yes, but being abused shaped his personality I'd say. His reaction to being abused is his need to make other people happy. And it really is everyone around him.
mystic mortar
I've never recovered from that betrayal
bold niche
if you want to help people, who don't really care about your help and don't ask about it at first, it may be a sign of inner discontent
feral flower
It's not, but it can be an indicator?
restive flame
but Zagreus isn't doing everything to make people happy. his goal to leave the house is quite his own
fierce tendon
I bet the contractor was feeling pretty wiley after that
feral flower
A sign of abuse in a child can be being incredibly withdrawn. But that also comes when the child is very very shy.
rocky sapphire
Or it could be an equal indicator that good parenting from not-Hades taught him to be empathetic and conscientious
feral flower
But if it comes with a lot of other symptoms, you might have it.
bold niche
i'll tell you more, there are lots of people who actually don't trust others and expext some bad reaction from everyone
and they still want to do their best
feral flower
Than even calls him out for helping people out without ever seeing if they're ok with him interfering in personal situations.
fierce tendon
True
rocky sapphire
I see that more as Zag feeling the impetus to help in bigger ways because his status offers him the power to do so where others could not help themselves
bold niche
either they have to do good things perfectly, or they'll be mocked and blamed
restive flame
Zagreus' generosity is repeatedly demonstrated as entirely gregarious and not out of any sense of reward or need to further endear anyone
bold niche
that's what abused people think
feral flower
I'm not saying that all of Zag's personality traits -prove- he's abused. I'm saying that they are consistent with it.
fickle comet
One tell-tale sign of having an abusive parent is doing 52 Heat with Beowulf, which I and Zagreus have done together, so that's proof that Hades is abusive. Checkmate.
I win.
fervent skiff
Hard to argue with that
feral flower
None of it is set in stone. People react in different ways. But it's just one of those signs, you know?
Also solid point from Nyaanyaa! Clear sign 😄
fierce tendon
Pretty sure any heat above 35 constitutes self-flagilation
restive flame
just loving the way people joke about abuse around here. I think I'll take a break for the day
rocky sapphire
I mean, he has a lot of not-signs as well though, like excellent self-esteem, confidence, and the willingness to try doing difficult things knowing he will probably fail.
leaden epoch
I think the definitions you are providing are so vague you could apply them to any teenager and say "Aha, signs of abuse." He doesn't have a need to make everyone feel happy, he does it out of genuine kindness. Lots of people with perfectly healthy relationships act the same way without any outside motivation. Lots of teenagers act out. Testing boundaries is part of the teenage experience. Most people are bad at expressing their feelings and communicating well. And getting hurt and dying are about the equivalent of scraping a knee for zag.
bold niche
joking is one way to avoid depression.. unfortunately
it may be offensive when others do that, but people familiar with situation, i think, have a right to do so
feral flower
Like I said. These are just symptoms. They could come from a lot of things. They might not be related. The best sign of abuse is well... Seeing Hades constantly abusing him.
rocky sapphire
You can retrofit whatever narrative you want onto the situation, I don't think arguments in the form "well q, so obviously p" work when trying to assert "if p then q"
feral flower
Which he does do.
Hades takes pleasure in shutting down his ambitions, insulting him, mocking him, hurting him in any way that he can. That's the proof. Everyone else can be explained in other ways, can come from a lot of things.
But those things? Those are abuse.
bold niche
we can't say he is not abusive, because he didn't lock Zag in the House, punishing and torturing him for any attempt of jumping out of the window, to the point the latter will be Zag's last desire..
leaden epoch
I think that's probably too heavy handed of a definition of abuse. It doesn't have to be physical in order to be abuse, Volus.
bold niche
words can hurt as well, you know.. trying to destroy Zag's self-evaluation and confidence is no better
that's my point
feral flower
I mean, there is also the physical abuse, but we don't need to go there really.
bold niche
and i can't remember a single case when Hades said anything good to Zag
leaden epoch
Well, when you buy the sundial
He sounds pretty impressed 😛
And he does offer a compliment or two on specific decorations.
feral flower
When I bought the sundial, he insulted me for doing it.