It can be told in this day and age without the things that are problematic
#h1-story-discussion
upbeat willow
torpid turret
Greek myths are pretty terrible, but I do enjoy them. It's also really cool to see how they adapt the myths as well
I'm gonna be honest with you Aggy, basically 99% of the Greek myth content is problematic fkajehrfka
It's just kinda how it is fkajehrg
Supergiant is definitely adapting it in a different way though, and they've made it interesting
upbeat willow
Oof, good thing SGG is adopting the myth to remove the problematic stuff from the myth while making it very enjoyable 
Yeah, kinda a consequence of the times I guess, good thing there's serveral potential ways to interpret the mythos
torpid turret
I mean, the gods and heroes in greek myth weren't worshipped because they were good
Like, at all
They were worshipped because they were powerful and they had more power
I's kinda poked at in the game too?
Like with Hades' statement that Elysium isn't for the good, it's for the great
and how Patroclus comments that he's known many good men in life but none of them are in Elysium
upbeat willow
Yeah, I think Nyx outright states it at one point
torpid turret
Yeah, and that's because it's just a reality in Greek myth
Sorry, I like, grew up with Greek mythology so I'm just always really hyped up to talk about it always fkjaehrg
molten temple
big same
torpid turret
but yeah, like. Supergiant definitely adapts it all to be Way Softer like I cannot emphasize how mcuh, but the Olympians are a big screwed up family because they are even worse in Greek myth
fjkerhg
molten temple
I like that they made the Elder Olympians' relationships less incestuous by handing off the girls to Hyperion and Theia.
torpid turret
And I dunno, it's problematic but it's kinda just how it is, and how terrible the gods are can be entertaining storywise
Yeah, that and making PErsephone's father a mortal is what they did for that I tihnk
hollow mortar
Yooo, a fellow fruit 
torpid turret
Because PErsephone's dad was Zeus in the myths
upbeat willow
It will be interesting to see how the ending goes
torpid turret
Ahaha
upbeat willow
Will the gods lose interest now their latest obsesion interest escaped the underworld (except artemis who is straight blunt about it)
torpid turret
HAha, that would probably break the game quite a bit fkjahreg
hollow mortar
Welcome 🍉 🍑
upbeat willow
It would hey 
It'll probably end up with me in tears for at least 30 minutes knowing SG and their endings 
torpid turret
Haha, /pats
north cloak
something I just realized -- are there any aesop references in this game?
any tortoises and hares, crafty ravens?
torpid turret
Aesop as a philosopher was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay after the hypothesized mythic times
He doesn't have any references I've seen
though I believe there was a Socrates reference
There was also a reference about how one philosopher died to a falling tortoise?
But I cannot remember which philosopher that was off the top of my head
north cloak
lolol nice. I'll look forward to that one
eternal breach
Hewwo
open berry
aeschylus iirc
mystic mortar
Will the gods lose interest now their latest
obsesioninterest escaped the underworld (except artemis who is straight blunt about it)
Artemis said she wouldn't bother with zag once he escapes, but she also asked him to bring her his bow, tell her about his life, and go hunting with her
so which do you actually believe?
upbeat willow
Dusa is incredibly wholesome and friendly :3
molten temple
platonic love is valid love, and much more openly expressed in ancient greece.
mystic mortar
I once experienced a glitch that caused me to cuddle with nyx while talking to her
molten temple
bug or feature?
y e s
mystic mortar
I hit "E" and immediately turned around to face away from her
upbeat willow
that sounds very wholesome but also very unlike Nyx
molten temple
Nyx definitely has hands-off motherly vibes
atomic forge
So what are the theories about the ending? a lot of allusions to Persephone seem to imply something mysterious
eternal breach
Nyx:
Zag:
Nyx: um i thought i had this hugging thing down, child
Zag: give it some training and you'll be good
mystic mortar
Theory: we all cry, but slightly less than for previous endings of SGG games
eternal breach
Crying is a given
upbeat willow
or more, or even the same
eternal breach
Im already mentally prepared for that
Me, walking into the ending: alright we know how this goes punch me
molten temple
SGG: delivers a roundhouse kick to the chest
open berry
perfect, i love angst, give it to me
well not angst for the sake of angst but angst with a good buildup that gets resolved in some way, yes. excellent
eternal breach
The most dangerous part here is how attached to the characters i am
Hurt any of them and I WILL cry
I swear if something bad happens to Zag
🗡️
drowsy root
is there anything that allows for controlled play of Good Riddance but with vocals? I've finally had Orpheus visit Eurydice and return, and it was great how they were singing together, but honestly I'd love to be able to have some control over when/what Orpheus decides to sing
open berry
dont think so
echo mist
anyone else feel like Nyx is pushing an agenda?
I just had the dialogue with her where she tells Zag to "destroy him completely" (him being Hades)
And also the thing about Nyx being the one that "shrouded" persephone to "aid" her in her escape
It all screams to me "I want Hades gone, so I'll use Zagreus as a tool to accomplish it"
And her first step to accomplishing that was keeping Persephone hidden/prisoner
eternal breach
Nah dont think so
Its been said quite a few times Nyx and Hades respect each other
And she cares abour Perse and Zag, that im certain of
While sure she might have her own agendas they would totally take the backseat to helping Zag and Perse
modern stone
I love how she shows her bias towards meg so much compared to dusa
hollow mortar
DEATH! 
silk saffron
She also says she has loyalty towards the house so if she actually does want Hades gone it would be because she doesn't think his leadership benefits the house?
hollow mortar
Always good to see you around 
modern stone
Same to you too ❤️
pallid crag
nyx is a shipper 😔
open berry
its more that she doesnt want dusa to be distracted with her work
open berry
shes also a primordial god with the literal Fates as her daughters so while there's certainly no excuses for how she behaves at times, its completely understandable she has awfully skewed perceptions of things ¯_(ツ)_/¯
clear oracle
I thought she was supposed to be WISE
atomic forge
the gods are pretty flawed
ornate siren
The gods are all very flawed
atomic forge
that what makes them great
modern stone
Yeah she gives off an elitist vibe for sure though I'm not sure how much of that is her just disliking dusa for some reason
speaking of her having a secret agenda and wanting to "destroy hades" as another user said
what if she and zag's mom loved each other but she is salty she got cucked 
while persephone was married to hades, nyx and her had secret "meetings"
drifting citrus
there’s actually plenty of fanart about that lol
pallid crag
rife, but uhhhh not accepted
hera is generally very cross whenever zeus does his thing
wait no, polygamy isnt rife, cheating is
echo mist
infidelity rife
polygamy uncommon
🤔
makes one wonder...
zeus is the chief culprit to be fair
modern stone
there’s actually plenty of fanart about that lol
@drifting citrus
i was just messing around
did not expect that
drifting citrus
yeah there’s some persephone x nyx art if you go digging around in #fan-works
night quest
upbeat willow
it's pinned in this channel Ans ^_^
eternal breach
Random thought to brighten up the evening, beby zag discovering his bloodstone and showing his dad, who is secretly proud and shows zag his own fully formed skull bloodstones
Cue excited child
graceful quail
random plot twist, when we do win once the game is over we actually get a different memory from hades, from when zag was a kid and hades wasnt so sour, being a proud good father before persephone left
since right now you sometimes get memories of hades being mean and annoying when you make your escape
static cedar
these are all v good ideas and i hope they become real
graceful quail
btw incase you never have, take a yarn of ariadne to the battle with theseus and asterius
wild fiber
I want Hades to tell zag he's proud of him, but only if you beat him without taking damage
static cedar
awwwh
honestly i keep thinking about how maybe hades is just trying to look tough
but jeebus some of the things he says in the flashbacks are absolutely toxic
like just downright malicious
graceful quail
he just grew sour after being left
static cedar
I mean OKAY but DAMN zag is all u have left why u gotta be like that
but also it doesn't justify his behaviour
it's a REASON but still tho
graceful quail
because he remind him of persephone so much
static cedar
i guess...
wild fiber
Something my dad heard in therapy: everyone has stuff. You can work on yours or not, until you have children. Then the choice becomes work on your stuff or pass it on to your kids
He's pretty obviously resentful of his Olympian siblings too tbh
graceful quail
he have resentment because he feel force to work the underworld
static cedar
the bot censors bad words oof
graceful quail
also he clearly have try to leave the underworld before
static cedar
yeah
but now he's passed it on to his son
and now that same resentment he had is passed on to his son, who is growing to resent him
like it's honestly a wee bit heart breaking...
idk mangue I just wanna hug zag ;_;7
wild fiber
Zag isn't without emotional support tbh.
wild fiber
Like he's kinda rolling in positive relationships. It's just that all the friends and aunt's and.uncles and cousins and the best mom ever don't substitute for a good dad
They should crunch to release the next patch this Sunday, lol
It would be funny
open berry
nyx isnt that great of a mother though, in serving as zag's mother figure she neglects one of her own sons because he isnt living up to her standards
zag gets that parental support from nyx that he cant get from hades, cool, nice, but at the same time hypnos gets no support at all and is just kinda left alone to figure things out for himself
vapid parcel
god i just want to sent nyx to a parenting course and hades to therapy and also maybe jail for ||a lot of forms of abuse||
vapid parcel
jail for hades for a thousand years
static cedar
dont get 200 of u pass by go
heck yes
and then leave the contract in the archives
bold niche
he is already in jail of some sort
vapid parcel
actually if there's a redemtion arc it better be perfect and also not force zag to forgive him
static cedar
have him push a boulder or something
vapid parcel
but preferable no redemption arc
static cedar
^
vapid parcel
high five
static cedar
down low
vapid parcel
but seriously some of the stuff hades says and implies is uh...... so yikes
static cedar
title card as in the things you get when you end a run?
vapid parcel
no before
vapid parcel
wait i'll link it
static cedar
I only recently started taking screen shots 👉🏼👈🏼
vapid parcel
i m not crazy that sounds like
vapid parcel
like ||he forced meg and zag together||
vapid parcel
i honestly don't know how else to interpret that???
open berry
it doesnt sound like that to me honestly, that may be reading into it too much
static cedar
there's this one that's basically ||haha u have BLOOD EWWWW points and laughs||
vapid parcel
oh thank god, what do you think tatz?
static cedar
I hated that one so muchhhh
tbh it sounds like he used her to torture him or something
if we're being optimistic maybe just a training buddy
static cedar
yeah but achilles was more like a mentor?
maybe he had meg be the enemy kinda
like, the target of zag's enmity
static cedar
hmmm
silk saffron
We also don't know when Achilles came into Zag's life
open berry
"one thing the mortals have on us is that they quickly become men" well for one thing mortals and immortals have a distinctly different rate of growth. time is wholly meaningless to gods, quickly here seems to mean more the mortal rate of growth than anything. it does seem to be more a reference to meg's inherent job rather than some reference to forcing them together
vapid parcel
what is her inherent job aside from keeping watch in tartarus?
open berry
mortals go through complex sets of emotions in a very short span of time compared to gods, and meg was a punisher of things such as grudge and jealousy
the erinyes themselves were beings of vengeance
that punished specific crimes
vapid parcel
so what exactly has that got to do with this? like she jumpstarted his puberty?
open berry
i. really dont think that quote is meant to be taken in that manner.
i dont think it has anything to do with zag's puberty/sexual life/ect
vapid parcel
it does talk about accelerating the process of him becoming a man, what else would that mean in this case?
open berry
at the end of the day you would have to ask greg since he's the main writer but like. "being a man" refers to more than just sex.
vapid parcel
well, yes xD
graceful quail
im sure that he also mean fight
static cedar
cries
haughty carbon
could be a way to scare off Zag in attempt or stop from trying to reach to Olympus considering, he is tied to the underworld, to let him know with Meg in one way "there is no escape, get back to attempt at work"
open berry
children grew up quickly in those days, and part of the process of being an "adult" was also being able-bodied to be involved in things such at war, defending your home, ect.
static cedar
grow up; mature
i did NOT mean to sound like a smartass with this sorry ;-;
vapid parcel
ahdhdh nah i got you fam
static cedar
but yeah it feels like zag had an unfortunate childhood/teenage years
whenever Hades became as bitter as he is rn
vapid parcel
yeah zag has had.. a bad time
open berry
so i really take hades's reference to mortals becoming men quickly more referencing the process as a whole of what constituted children becoming adults in that time period
static cedar
hades prequel centered around teen angst when
haughty carbon
Hades prequel is just Hades wishing he had someone else to put the work load onto
graceful quail
you mean hades 2, persephone escape
open berry
immortal beings are different, sometimes they came to being as children, sometimes they came to being already as fully fledged "adults" so thats why i think hades is simply referencing the mortal timespan more than anything
static cedar
Hades 2 electric boogaloo
vapid parcel
i really hope you're right, because he said it so sinisterly man
open berry
hades says a lot of things sinisterly, i dont think that really means anything
thats just how he is unfortunately
hes a bitter old man
vapid parcel
true
haughty carbon
Hades says so pretty much almost every line. His connection to work, past and well relationship progression pretty much made him into dad that puts up all of his negative outcomes onto someone, mostly Zagreus in hope of him taking his place so he could take a rest one way or another
molten temple
I think tatz has it right here. I think Hades assigned both Megaera and Achilles to mentor Zagreus to maturity.
Megaera might have been in charge of teaching Zagreus his position and responsibility as Prince of the House. She has a deeper connection to the House than Achilles, a former mortal hired to work there, and so is better fit to teach Zagreus how to become a responsible “adult”. The romantic relationship that Achilles mentions in her Codex entry probably arose organically with the time Meg and Zag spent together.
Achilles, as the greatest of the Greeks, mentored Zagreus in martial combat and discipline: Fear is for the weak.
In Ancient Greece, boys had to become men around 16-18, and ready to accept all the responsibilities of such a position in society - voting in some places, working a trade, maybe raising a family, etc.
Gods, with their infinite lifespans, don’t need to rush into maturity like mortals do. They can easily spend centuries in their childhood before becoming mature. Or, they might spend very little time as a child before becoming an adult. Hades, strict disciplinarian that he is, probably wanted to make sure Zagreus fell into the latter.
graceful quail
also worth mentioning that zag knows sysiphus from work, so it is likely that he was mentor by meg on how that side of the underworld is manage
north cloak
I may have forgotten since run 1
Was there a precipitating event to start Zag's groundhog day lifestyle?
vapid parcel
he found out who his mom is
open berry
reminder hypnos helped with that and it will probably never be mentioned in 1.0 🤧 still feel like its kinda treason in some respects to put the entire house to sleep so zag may go through his father's documents without permission but eh
vapid parcel
could you ever stay mad at hypnos tho
open berry
hades could be nastier lmao
vapid parcel
if someone can just put you to sleep, do you really wanna tell them what to do tho ahshhdhf
haughty carbon
Think Hades can't come up with a worse punishment than troubled relationship with the mother and brother Hynos has.
open berry
😔
vapid parcel
too real man
open berry
oof
haughty carbon
And he knows nothing is worse than not well put family relationship.
open berry
wild that a god that was known for being kind to mortals gets treated so poorly by other gods, even his own family 🤧
graceful quail
it doesnt sound too far off considering how cruel greek gods could get
looking at you, eternal winter demeter
haughty carbon
Plus Hypnos sleeps through most of his responsibilities. There isn't room for additional emotional weight that Hypnos can get through.
graceful quail
he is sleep itself, for all we know, if he doesnt sleep mortals might never sleep again
open berry
sleep is part of hypnos's responsibilities though
the game treats hypnos like hes a useless slacker for sleeping all the time, which is one part of the myth deviation that drives me mad because its frankly unfair to him. sleep is literally his responsibility, and his children managed dreams
haughty carbon
It is, although he got another responsibility in the busy underworld which does make it hard for him to actually please everyone. The dead and gods don't care as much what he does to mortals. So yeah he is indeed in quite unfair situation.
open berry
i feel like, in a way, he partly got pushed aside to prop up than too. like its fair for than to get more development since hes romanceable and all but he comes across as the superior sibling and thats kinda :/
kinda wish they were more twin like and didnt have this huge contrast to them in which one sibling is put down for not meeting standards
graceful quail
i do like that he seem unshakable, like even when being scold he just keep his charming ways
open berry
in fairness in that situation where nothing you do is good enough for anyone either you break, or you fake it til you make it :')
frail cobalt
Hypnos needs/deserves more love from like every single character
I will never give up on asserting that
graceful quail
also he does have children already
north cloak
He speaks nicely but sometimes his advice is annoying. Until it becomes endearing
graceful quail
responsible? well not like greek gods are amazing parents
open berry
im just personally not a fan of hypnos being characterized as being lazy and irresponsible, and then instead of like. addressing that if you wanna go that route, his own family abandons him and gives all their attention to zag. thats not how you deal with these issues lol
graceful quail
remember that nyx is still around, and she said that than is among the least dependent of her children except for the fates
that means she see hypnos as someone she have to take care of
north cloak
Her version of taking care of him is not speaking to him for 100 years while standing 20 meters away
frail cobalt
She has dialogue that says she specifically refuses to interact with Hypnos because he needs to “learn independence”
open berry
i think zag's relationship with nyx is nice, and i do like their high affinity exchange but at the same time im super not into the fact that zag gets some sort of parental support and hypnos is just left to figure things out on his own because he's not meeting up to some arbitrary standards nyx set. we already know nyx has skewed perceptions because of how she treats the whole dusa debacle
graceful quail
i think hypnos really dont need a job, but nyx ensure he is in the house
north cloak
Yeah I think that's how she's taking care of him
graceful quail
in the end is all about nyx own insecurity over hypnos and not much about hypnos being lazy
north cloak
Whereas Than's got a career, Hypnos in sgg seems pretty content with going with the flow
graceful quail
well he is the sleep, maybe god dont value sleep as much
open berry
hypnos has also kind of accepted that nothing he does matters so why bother trying
graceful quail
but for mortals he is very important
haughty carbon
Nyx really could take his place as someone who greets dead instead of standing around talking about him not being responsible enough.
Or does she do something I forgot? I don't remember what Nyx exactly does well except cooperating with Hades on some regards.
graceful quail
keep in mind i dont think nyx or anyone in the house understand his importance
dead for example is something very easy to understand for a god, special for those in tartarus
then you have nyx how is the night itself
maybe for them sleep sounds like something rather dull
haughty carbon
Yeah if not for him more would be dead from exhaustion or something.
Making the underworld even more so busy
graceful quail
not to mention the ability to contact and persuade mortals through dreams
the fates might even use that themselve
open berry
there's technically confirmation that one of their siblings, eris, gives than a lot of work to do as it is
which is apt, since she is strife
north cloak
What does it mean to be the god of night anyway
Do you have any power over it
There's the darkness I guess
graceful quail
tartarus is basically darkness
she have complete power over it
and that realm exist because of her
also without helios, all there is , is darkness
north cloak
Nyx's power manifest in making zag stronger via collecting crystalized nightstuff in the underworld
haughty carbon
The darkness I think is what powers everything magical in there. While gems offer motivation to workers to well work.
graceful quail
i think the mirror is but a reflection of his own power, a way for zag to use the shroud of darkness that nyx have over him as a weapon and a shield, but also to reflect on his own power and journey to improve
bold niche
Hypnos definitely needs more love and attention. i've also thought that when he sleeps, he can actually control people's dreams or observe them, or something like that. Maybe, that's how he enters his own realm. Wish we could know more, even take a look at it..
open berry
observing dreams is actually an idea we've incorporated in our musings, my friend and i lmao. he has a lot of potential but ultimately he was never meant to serve any prominent role in the game, which is honestly a shame. the fact he barely interacts with anyone and even all his gifting dialogue remains disconnected just sucks, really. even when being gifted zag and hypnos never speak to one another as more than like... well like co-workers or neighbors you pass by every day, you know them by name but you dont talk to them much and dont know anything about them. thats how their relationship feels like. i brought it up before but even alecto and theseus have something they call zag that specifically refers to him. the olympians all have their own way of addressing him. hypnos doesnt. hypnos literally never refers to him as zag, zagreus, nothing. only ever uses "you" and that contributes to how disconnected hypnos feels to everyone else
bold niche
i mean, come on, there should be at least question, why Zag almost never sleeps
Hypnos should be considered about it
graceful quail
maybe zag asked hypnos not to sleep so he can escape
bold niche
or how they managed to arrange that flashback event when everyone but Zag fell asleep
frail cobalt
You mean falling unconscious between death and resurrection doesn’t count as sleep?
north cloak
At first I was like, no, but then I was like, hmm
graceful quail
well he basically is seen falling into a pool of blood
and he get to the house so fast that sometimes dad isnt even there yet
and passing out is also not sleeping
modern stone
Nyx and Hades are cut from the same cloth, or two sides of the same coin is more accurate to say. Nyx does truly love her children, it's just her way of parenting might be too aloof (though he really don't have much insight into her brain). Hades also loves Zag imo, he just has that hardass dad vibe going on. Previously before Zag knew about his mom, Hades was training him to take his place, and Zags was failing at that which made Hades feel terribly disappointed, and Hades does value good worth ethic. Then later when Zag found out about this mom, Hades plays the villain, and treats zag the way he does because Zag hating him is his preferred outcome over Zag finding out there is no hope of escape (he probably does want zag to break free and escape though). Because living without hope probably sucks. At the same time while I think he does truly love Zag he seems to prefer Thanatos more. Especially in how he conducts himself and dedicates himself to his work.
tl;dr both love their kids they just suck at parenting/expressing it
at least that's my 2cents
graceful quail
i agree on the parenting, i think hades is just a very cynical parent, he wants zag to be strong like him, and he see that side of his mother, that "lightness" s nyx have express before, as weakness, zag cares for people more than hades could ever do, and hades is unable to accept that, because it would be accepting persephone
north cloak
Passing out isn't sleep, but sleep is a state of unconsciousness
Maybe hypnos still has sway over it
modern stone
i agree on the parenting, i think hades is just a very cynical parent, he wants zag to be strong like him, and he see that side of his mother, that "lightness" s nyx have express before, as weakness, zag cares for people more than hades could ever do, and hades is unable to accept that, because it would be accepting persephone
@graceful quail interesting take, never thought of it like that. You are probably 100% right on that
graceful quail
i think hypnos can turn someone unonscious but dreams and nightmares fall to his children
modern stone
I do want to see concept art for the fates kind of now
graceful quail
me too, because previous portraits of the fates... eww
i want a SGG despiction
like the new and now cannon ares
this is the real ares, forget about any other picture you seen before
modern stone
Yeah Ares looks good
he look like a bronzed chiseled perfect greek man
graceful quail
a gentleman of war
modern stone
indeed
graceful quail
instead of a barbarian of war
modern stone
Outside of the Olympian gods and hades
I had no idea who thanots/nyx/hypnos/chaos were before playing this game
thought they were fanfic
till I googled
graceful quail
i did knew one of hypnos childs from a comic, the famous morpheus
not from matrix btw
graceful quail
the comicbook morpheus was nice
modern stone
when you said famous and morpheus next to each other my mind instantly went to the matrix
graceful quail
he was trap once, for years, and some people went into coma while others never had a nice night of sleep
which is basically what i think would happen if hypnos were to vanish
modern stone
googled it
the art looks similar to the person that did lucifer by DC
really? so hypno is that important
PEACH!!!
hollow mortar
It's DEATH!
modern stone
HOW ARE U
hollow mortar
I'm fine! How are you?!
open tiger
peach what did you say
graceful quail
we are starting a rally in favor if hypnos
modern stone
I'm doing well thanks for asking. Just discussing Hypnos and Nyx/Hades parenting methods with the lads here
open tiger
Hmm, Peach, new stuff sounds like #beta-discussion-june20 ;P
upbeat willow
but death isn't new in Hades 😛
open berry
i think in general media thanatos is definitely more well known than hypnos or nyx, you see "thanatos" a lot even just for like names for stuff
upbeat willow
yes, nap time all the time Peach 😉
hollow mortar
Ah, if you meant how Nyx does her parenting with Hypnos, I think it's a bit bittersweet.
graceful quail
hypnos deserve to be romanced, and have lots more interactions and everyone in olympus to know him
upbeat willow
lol, I wish
hollow mortar
Tries to imagine Zagreus falling for Hypnos 
open tiger
falling asleep for him more like
hollow mortar
Sho~
open berry
do not tempt me
open berry
clenches my fist i am responsible for some of the things in the ao3 hypnos/zagreus tag
graceful quail
i have to admit hypnos sounds like the datable brother, and than the F able brother
open berry
this convo is not family friendly
graceful quail
for what achilles mention, hades is actually a very monogamous god compare to his kin
looking at you zeus
modern stone
can you have a monogamous thing going on in this game?
modern stone
I'd prefer that tbh
I'd end all my my current bonds
graceful quail
dont forget that than and meg are often in a private conversation in the longe
upbeat willow
monogamy, polygamy, purely platonic up to you
graceful quail
about zag...
hollow mortar
I told a friend of mine that I'd leave Zagreus forever alone if it wasn't for me wanting to watch all the story content hehe
modern stone
upbeat willow
lmao Peach
modern stone
I want to go with either meg or dusa but since maxing out both
I feel bad for dusa
cause dusa got no action : (
and she said she is okay with it when meg asked
I feel horrible
open berry
@hollow mortar i did not write these but i have helped with ideas for some of these 🤧 https://archiveofourown.org/users/Brachydios/pseuds/Brachydios/works?fandom_id=28433393
hollow mortar
Why feel horrible? She's happy with being friends with Zag 
Sees Brachydios as a word in there. Monster Hunter instincts flowing
graceful quail
she basically friendzoned zag
upbeat willow
tbh I wish I could just be platonic with them earlier
upbeat willow
I really doubt it but that's my bias coming through
open berry
i kinda dislike this notion dusa "friendzoned" zag though, she was discovering her own feelings just as much as zag was, and it happened that the love she felt wasnt the same as his
modern stone
She is a shipping mastermind
she gave us the mirror so we would have more chances to interact with Meg while getting stronger, and slowly win her over again
she is a 8000 IQ
maybe one day when dusa gets body can our dreams become reality
upbeat willow
I don't like the idea of "friendzoning" in general
north cloak
Relationship entitlement smh
upbeat willow
if someone likes you but not in a romantic/sexual way that's called being a friend
nothing more nothing less
hollow mortar
Well, Aphrodite mentions the 7 types of love.
open berry
plus dusa points out that she wouldnt put herself in danger for just anyone, so theres still the implication that she feels quite strongly for zag. its just not explicitly romantic.
hollow mortar
It was 7 right? 
north cloak
And the other side is called unrequited love and it gets too much props in our cultural heritage
hollow mortar
So Dusa fits in one that isn't romantic.
upbeat willow
probably 7 I forget
hollow mortar
I don't know what are the others, they haven't mentioned them ingame.
upbeat willow
platonic love is a thing
open berry
pulls up all my ye olde content
upbeat willow
and it's often forgotten in this hyper sexualised world we live in'
hollow mortar
I currently have 1 platonic love so it's not forgotten by me at all 
Cerberus & Zag = bro love
upbeat willow
same peach, they're in this server too 
open berry
||Zag: Hey Dusa, something I was wondering, and it's just curiosity, mind you, but... is there somebody else...? I mean, somebody special, whom you're close with, or would like to be. Romantically, I mean. If it's all right to ask.
Dusa: Oh, you can ask me anything! But, um, somebody else romantically, not really, no? It's not really my thing? It doesn't mean I don't have feelings for you, though! You know that, right? I wouldn't drop what I'm doing and throw myself at danger for just anyone, you know!
Zag: I definitely know. There's seven kinds of love, or so, isn't that right? It isn't something that's taught extensively down here, though, so... there's still a lot for me to learn, I guess.
Dusa: Wow, I never thought of it as love until you said it there just now, Prince, but you're right! I love you, Zagreus! Hah, haha, that feels good to come right out and say, you know? OK, well, bye!||
open tiger
I remember that one!!
hollow mortar
That wall of tags though.
open berry
i didnt want to drop the entire convo without a spoiler!
north cloak
How do I un show spoilers :p
hollow mortar
Click on another channel then come back.
modern stone
click to another channel/server
north cloak
Whew
hollow mortar
That's one of the sweetest Dusa/Zagreus scenes from the game
I found myself going "aaaw"
modern stone
imma throw out some wild pairings. what do u think about Zag and Eurydice?
north cloak
You all are almost inspiring me to play more. I recently gave Dusa a bunch of ambrosia and now than thinks I made questionable decisions
upbeat willow
ngl I was pretty devastated when I found out I couldn't be platonic with Dusa from the start of the dating sequence
but I should go through it to see this scene
hollow mortar
But in there we can appreciate Dusa || saying romance isn't her thing.||
modern stone
Dusa is just a sweetheart
hollow mortar
Oh, you haven't already Aggy? Go for it!
upbeat willow
no, i refused to start it once I found out
hollow mortar
You as well, pat!
modern stone
but then u don't get the cute plushie
upbeat willow
by start I mean get the hearts past the arrow
modern stone
ah
open berry
i wish people would respect dusa saying that u__u i understand being bummed you cant fully romance her like meg and than but its not like dusa doesnt like zag. the love she has is just different. shes not friendzoning him, she discovers her own feelings in the process, its just a different kind of love.
platonic love is still love
open tiger
it's really well done imo
and if you have trouble with that, you might want do a bit of thinking
open berry
it super bums me out seeing people imply that dusa led zag on or anything, since im aromantic myself u__u
modern stone
zag got friendzoned hard
open tiger
no??
modern stone
at least that's my perspective on it
wide wind
he clearly doesn't feel that way if you read the conversation
open berry
she didnt, we've been talking about this
wide wind
he's very happy with their relationship
modern stone
they aren't mutually exclusive
u don't have to hate the person when u get friendzoned
open berry
interpreting their relationship as zag being friendzoned is putting forth the expectations of the player on the dialogue but not actually listening to what the dialogue says. zag and dusa both express theyre content with how things turn out
hollow mortar
Didn't Zag || wanted to be forthright with Dusa about where their relationship is heading? It happened a long time ago so I don't remember the exact dialogue for it but it seemed as if Zagreus wanted something more with Dusa.||
It's times like these where I feel like replaying the game to rewatch scenes 
bold niche
he did ask, if there is someone else Dusa actually feels something romantic for
so he did think that it might be really friendzoning thing for a moment
modern stone
he asked if there was someone she had feelings for, or someone she would like to have romantic feelings for or something
he was implying himself
bold niche
don't know if it was that case, but maybe
open berry
incoming spoiler wall for bedroom scene
hollow mortar
I had the same impression myself, insinuating that he wanted a chance at it. Reminded me of the youthful nervousness when asking someone out.
upbeat willow
that implication was completely lost on me
open berry
||Dusa: ...Um, Zagreus... so, ever since you told me you had feelings for me, it's been like... my whole mind is on fire. I haven't been able to think straight, or get anything done. It's all been so much!
Zag: I'm sorry, Dusa, I... put a lot on you, and... maybe I shouldn't have, since I'm the prince and everything, as you point out, and... sometimes, I forget myself. I'd never pressure you, it's just... I thought you had these feelings for me, too.
Dusa: I do have feelings for you, silly! That's what I've been trying to tell you, it's just... it's just...
Zag: It's just what...? Whatever it is, it's OK. You can be yourself with me, Dusa. I promise.
Dusa: I'm glad you put it that way. I... I'm not looking for an intimate relationship. You're the kindest soul in this whole House. And I have learned so much from you! But, when I really think about my feelings... I'm just, not attracted to you, in that way. I'm sorry. You're a really nice guy!||
splitting this bc its long
hollow mortar
Sho and the spoiler tags~
open berry
||Zag: Oh, hahaha, look, there's nothing to apologize for, not at all. In fact... all this is a relief. I've learned a lot from you, too, and I cherish our friendship for what it is. Do you... do you think that we could still be friends? Or, is it better that you didn't see me anymore...?
Dusa: Don't say that! Though, I was going to ask you the same thing. I'd really like it if you'd be my friend! Though, my career comes first, so... I don't want you doing any special favors, promise me? I need to see how far I can get on my own.
Zag: I respect that so much, and yes, I promise, Dusa. So, well, then... friends? For all eternity?
Dusa: Yes. Friends. For all eternity. Now... I had better go. See you, OK?||
hollow mortar
Yes, I'm dividing them
open berry
listen if theres anyone who hasnt encountered yet, i dont wanna dump a big wall of text
bold niche
again, i'll be honest, from some spoilers here, i thought that Dusa's romance is going to be disappointing and all.. but when i've encountered it in the game, i couldn't resist the whole cuteness and sweetness of the scene
it's done really well
hollow mortar
Yup, that whole conversation reinforces my impression. But hey, we can all have our interpretations
modern stone
I personally don't know how anyone interprets that as anything but getting friendzoned. Its literally a cliched friendzone speech
but to each their own I guess
clear oracle
Hmm interesting since when did this channel become beta discussion
hollow mortar
That's not beta content, silly doggo.
clear oracle
All I see are black bars
hollow mortar
bold niche
there are 7 kinds of spoilers..
clear oracle
That's typical beta contents
open berry
friendzoning has negative connotations and thats why i dont like it. most often the context is the implication that the person expected something more from the relationship.
north cloak
The word "friendzone" itself isn't neutral, has a lot of baggage, and means different things to different people
open berry
but i still dont read their relationship as being friendzoned. but again, i am aromantic and i inherently just dont read it in the way you do
modern stone
ofc friendzoning has negative connotations
its negative result to a desired outcome u wanted
open tiger
the problem is that people will say "friendzone" and not really think about the word friend
north cloak
PS thanks for the spoiler tags <3
bold niche
well, we can't say that expectations were not built up
open tiger
sure
modern stone
that doesn't mean the two people have to hate each other
only that the result was negative
wide wind
what's wrong with being friendzone honestly
open tiger
but just because expectations were built up, doesn't mean they need to be fullfilled
nothing inherently, babs
clear oracle
Culture says it's not cool to be friendzoned
open tiger
it just means "being a friend instead of something more"
wide wind
a dear friend of mine "friendzoned" me when we first were getting to know each other and it was fine! because i cared more about them as a person than something to romance
north cloak
Culture is also dumb
bold niche
well, there are a lot of becauses, speaking of why friendzone is a bad thing
most of them have no relation to actual relationship of two people
clear oracle
The expectation is that if you fail to become you something more, you are something less.
And that hurts
That's why being friendzoned is bad
open berry
i just take issue with the expectation that the relationship should have been "more" and not respecting that both characters have expressed they wish to continue on in friendship and they're fine with that. dusa still loves zag and she says as much. its just not a romantic love. so thus the issue with the friendzoning conversation here is the implication that platonic love is not a desirable outcome.
hollow mortar
"Beyond their immediate denotation, the words have a connotative power."
Just a quote I'd like to drop~
bold niche
or maybe that you've been worse than someone else, someone not that caring and all
open tiger
I don't follow, Volus
bold niche
that's what maybe Zag was afraid of
clear oracle
Ok we are playing with entirely different definitions of friendzone
Unless we agree on a single unified definition, we will walk in circle regarding the Zag Dusa relationship
modern stone
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with getting friendzoned outside of it being a negative result
it just depends how it happens. If the woman/guy was manipulating you and leading you on, only to crush ur hopes then u gotta cut them out of ur life
but if a person straight up tells you they are not attracted to you without playing with your feelings then that's fine. As long as you don't keep trying
bold niche
idk.. i've not that familiar with aromantic love, that is not the same thing as friendship, i can't understand it
wide wind
that didn't happen tho
bold niche
also i see friendship as a nessesary thing for love
north cloak
I would just like to take a moment to thank SGG and Greg for inspiring this conversation
bold niche
friend is someone i could've give my life for
north cloak
It's a thorny topic that people don't talk about often, but because of what happens in the game, we have things to talk about
bold niche
even if there is no intention to have family, kids and stuff
hollow mortar
I don't think it's a bad topic; it highlights the value of friendship in my opinion.
modern stone
same
clear oracle
Choosing not to love someone for any reason is OK.
modern stone
pretty much
north cloak
thorny
There go words being tricky again. It is a good topic, but people can have contentious view about it, and whole lived experiences touching on it. And that's why it's hard to talk about.
hollow mortar
Back to Zagreus, he does love people in different ways: he loves Cerberus in 1 way, loves Dusa in another way, loves his Olympian family in yet another way, etc.
modern stone
doesn't have to be love either, can be like
not everyone needs to like/love u
bold niche
unless you're a parent..? maybe
hollow mortar
Romantically, he can love 2 different people, but the point is, there's love in different aspects, that's all.
clear oracle
You know, one of the things I appreciate the most in the game is that they put the "Follow your heart" thing when you choose.
open tiger
yeah
hollow mortar
Did you finish Pyre? 
clear oracle
I can choose accordingly to what I want, not to what the gameplay dictates.
not yet, Peach. Soon to be continued
Still, Jodi please come back T.T
north cloak
I can choose accordingly to what I want, not to what the gameplay dictates.
Kind of. Like Aggy said, you kind of follow along the rails somewhat. Like you can't initiate a platonic relationship from the get go because Zag's feelings are confused, so for a while, the game does dictate your path
bold niche
still you can not be afraid of others being jealous and their lines ruined.. you can choose depending on how you see their relationship
wild fiber
I think people get annoyed with dusas route because she's shown as having a frankly erotic reaction to Zagreus every time she sees him. Heart eyes are a shorthand for infatuation and or romantic feeling, so it's pretty galling to have that translate into "eh I'm not looking for romance"
Also, it's good that they're able to make having a platonic friendship work, but if you aren't able to do it with someone after striking out romantically it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you or that you're shallow.
Eros is a wild thing and when it's frustrated it's one of the most painful experiences known to man. There are whole libraries of poetry and drama and fiction and song about heartbreak and I really don't understand why people are so hard on people for experiencing it.
molten temple
Looking over the discussion, I think FoxHope was coming to the right reason on why everyone was arguing.
But it’s not an issue of different definitions of the “friendzone”, but different values on friends and lovers.
Tatz and others place Friends and Lovers as equal, but separate relationships. Neither is inherently “more” than the other because both are valuable relationships to mortal experience.
Death and others see Friends as a precursor relationship to Lovers. This worldview, which is the norm in most Earthly societies, places platonic love below romantic love, and above that erotic love.
Frankly I fall in the former camp as well but I don’t believe it’s necessarily the better system. It’s a matter of different value systems coming to blows, which is an important conversation in an increasingly loving world, brought to a head in this Ancient Greece-inspired dating simulator game.
vernal quail
If I might just come in, I've been interpreting Zag/Dusa as a queerplatonic relationship because it's something from my life that I really want to see in media more often. I think Dusa had squishes.
merry sorrel
"Friends as a precursor relationship to Lovers" makes sense when strictly in context of dating but otherwise... that would be weird
I agree that it's more of squishes or puppy love
molten temple
Yeah sorry, the language might be a little weird/clinical in wording. I’m demi/aromantic-questioning myself.
merry sorrel
it's not that part
it's more of, a lot of times friendships happen without intention or expectation of becoming lovers
even if it's "placed below romantic love", it's not meant as precursor
hollow mortar
Well, I don't relate to the part about "friends as a precursor relationship to lovers." I was just saying that Zagreus gave me an impression based on his experience, that's all.
merry sorrel
I feel like both Zag and Dusa felt affection for each other without expecting to becoming lovers
molten temple
Ah yeah, my mind drifted to the “friends to lovers” trope being popular. Sorry bout that
hollow mortar
Doggo, I see you.
clear oracle
Does no one believe in love at first sight anymore?
upbeat willow
Nope 
molten temple
I…know the concept but it’s very hard for me to understand.
merry sorrel
I do, but hasn't happened so far
hollow mortar
Aggy coming in, so harsh~
upbeat willow
But me being ace might have something to do with it
merry sorrel
unless we talking about cats or birds, I love them at first sight
hollow mortar
Aggy, you haven't experienced love at first sight when you see a majestic wedding cake or a big banana split?
clear oracle
dogs though
merry sorrel
I also fell for transistor and hades at first sight
vernal quail
I don't. Though, I think that the Japanese "Koi no yokan" or "feeling the potential of love at first sight" has merit
upbeat willow
Both cake and bananna split is tasty though :3
clear oracle
the line between spoiler and off topic is blurry haha
merry sorrel
but "koi" implies a relatively shallow love, like crush or infatuation, the actual love still needs to be cultivated
hollow mortar
This derived from the Dusa topic, yeah, but if people want to keep talking about love at 1st sight and Japanese culture, they can do so in #off-topic-discussion 
merry sorrel
I want to discuss if Dusa's love is more of "koi" or "ai" though
hollow mortar
You should define what both mean first for others to follow up.
merry sorrel
it's a crush/infatuation/puppy love/love that came hard and sudden and intense, but also durable and loyal is what I mean
here is a link for difference between koi and ai: https://www.thoughtco.com/japanese-words-for-love-2028042
trdr version is : "Koi" can be selfish, but "ai" is a real love.
koi can be blind
vernal quail
I feel that Dusa's initial feelings were a hero-worship sort of thing. Especially given how they first met.
merry sorrel
ai can be unconditional but should not be blind
hollow mortar
You mean, admiration.
vernal quail
Then her feelings grew and she realized that the romantic aspect wasn't part of her feelings.
torpid turret
I think the process was just Dusa realizing she's aromantic?
hollow mortar
Melon! 🍉
hollow mortar
Hi!
torpid turret
🍑
upbeat willow
Hai melon 
vernal quail
Aromantic Dusa is certainly something I'd subscribe to.
hollow mortar
Well, as it has been shown before, Dusa is not into romance.
torpid turret
Mm-hm
But yeah, I think everything was just like, her not realizing aromanticness because when you don't feel romantic love, then trying to figure out whether your affection is romantic or not can be very difficult
And then she got it
and now they're friends forever kfjhearg
vernal quail
I like the Zag/Dusa relationship a lot, as is.
torpid turret
Same here
upbeat willow
BFF's 
hollow mortar
I mean, try to picture yourself in front of someone you admire a lot. You'd be nervous like Dusa but not really in love with them.
torpid turret
I also really like it because it also super emphasizes that friendship and romance are on an equal level, which is not something that is widely echoed fkjaehgr
hollow mortar
If I were in front of Zooey Deschanel, I'd stutter a lot 😂
torpid turret
haha
upbeat willow
There's a tonne of musicians I'd be the same if standing infront of
Darren Korb and Ashley Barret for example 
hollow mortar
I'd melt if Darren spoke to me
upbeat willow
Same
atomic forge
Meg's voice actress
merry sorrel
crippling admiration
hollow mortar
Exactly.
merry sorrel
...I feel like that could be an Aphrodite boon
upbeat willow
Sounds like an alternite boon name to "unhealthy fixation"
clear oracle
Yeah Crippling Admiration has a better ring than Unhealthy Fixation
upbeat willow
Agreed fox :3
hollow mortar
I like Unhealthy Fixation's name 
upbeat willow
I like it but I like Crippling admiration more
upbeat willow
It really is
merry sorrel
Crippling Admiration also implies that Zag (and Theseus) is(are) like superstars of the underworld
hollow mortar
Theseus totally is 💗
graceful quail
i wish each of the god had a special voicenote when you kill hades using their call
imagine using aphrodites call on hades and her saying "it isnt me, it is you"
kinda like how you can hear "freeze to death!" when using demeters legendary
hollow mortar
(Put that in feedback lol)
Demeter's quote is soo good~
All of her quotes good 💙
upbeat willow
After the release of the blood price update
hollow mortar
All of this good feedback waiting in line though 
upbeat willow
They've been so patient
molten temple
Maybe not just kill FB with a Call, but just use Call on him in general.
clear oracle
who is FB?
upbeat willow
Not as long as the queue hypnos oversees though
merry sorrel
(kill FaceBook with a Call?)
molten temple
Like how FB already has a quip for each god’s Call, they get a witty retort
hollow mortar
Greater Call specific quote vs Final Boss 
upbeat willow
Final Boss
hollow mortar
Yas!
graceful quail
it cant be something so common or it gets tiresome
needs to be as rare as getting a legendary maybe?
using aphrodites legendary on hades
molten temple
I like to be in habit tho…
upbeat willow
All good ^_^
graceful quail
hades already have something to say when you use a call anyway
upbeat willow
Aphro's lehendary on fists
Hades tries to spin nope no spin for you
molten temple
I like Peach’s suggestion of Max Call on Hades and they each get a line at each other.
graceful quail
hades already say "cowarding under athenas shield?" when you use her call
maybe when he die and you have deflected an attack to him she say something?
cant imagine what
for dionysius: "i think you had one too many old man"
graceful quail
hmm that doesnt sound like it. needs a more gentlemen club owner kind of vibe
also ares is so into nyx
what about "this was but a battle, and we both know who win wars around here"
hollow mortar
I want Ares to flirt with Hades
@merry sorrel @open berry
open berry
also im a firm believer that ares flirts through sparring
just saying
peach why must you betray me and my eyes like this
open tiger
It's a legitimate way to flirt, just saying
graceful quail
that remind me of that small tale about life and death
modern stone
I wish we could date Aphrodite
graceful quail
life sending gift to death, and death keeping them forever
molten temple
“Hello milord, have you enjoyed the clients I’ve sent your way?”
graceful quail
hmm "i hope you enjoy my handywork, after baring witness firsthand"
clear oracle
I wish we could date Aphrodite
found Nyaa alt acount
open berry
just going to call myself out yet again so you may enjoy the levels of shame i do not have ||https://gyazo.com/41c6204c64c7b4ade8e5fa46e6da958d||
atomic forge
Isn't that kinda Meg and Zag's thing?
hollow mortar
Suddenly Schpoon
upbeat willow
a wild schpoon appears
merry sorrel
Zag making all the boon giving gods except Zeus and Poseidon his harem
and except Demeter of course
modern stone
found Nyaa alt acount
@clear oracle they have good taste
molten temple
athena and artemis are ace but other than that
modern stone
every woman is ace in this game
atomic forge
Except several are most definitely not.
bold niche
Aphro?
thorn compass
Literally
modern stone
The best kind of goddess
dense sparrow
they are not goddesses, they are beings of a higher power, Hades is weaker than the brood of Nyx
a theory: the gods get progressively weaker after generations, it may be that the Graecian know something about the bad effects of incest and incorporate it in their mythology
north cloak
What if the fall of Troy and the Bhagavad Gita are both stories by ancient civilizations, about a war long gone by in their prehistory
dense sparrow
the fall of Troy is definitely that, a war in Mycenean Greek. Idk what Bhagavad Gita is tho
north cloak
I think it is as well. It's part of an epic from India about a war between a good family and an evil family, and their armies (oversimplified)
dense sparrow
ahhh the mahabrata
but i dont really think mahabrata is really real, krishna is in it
north cloak
Well the Greek gods are in the ilyad
crimson temple
The Trojan war was deemed fictional, and is described with almost the whole Greek pantheon in it, but then Troy actually was excavated.
north cloak
I suspect there is a real basis for the mahabrata too
Some ancient conflict
Turned to myth
molten temple
A city that was in the same region that Troy would have been was discovered yeah. The Iliad was probably a mythical overglorification of a significant, actual war in Mycenaean Greek times.
dense sparrow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata#Historical_context
i am not sure, but wiki says that it was probably some iron age conflikt
torpid turret
re: Nyx, she falls into the category of primordial beings
Like, she isn't the goddess of the night, she's Night itself, and the same would be for like, Gaea (the Earth) and Ouranos (the Sky) and so on
dense sparrow
to be precise, shes a protogenos, one of the firstborns of Chaos
torpid turret
Mm-hm
royal sierra
Posting this here because it might classify as gameplay spoilers - how does one go about getting hidden aspects?
royal sierra
Thanks you!
gentle copper
ovo
royal sierra
hmmm i'm only seeing how to get aspect of arthur
which requires aspect of guan yu
and i have no idea how to get that
glad phoenix
All the new aspects require the same thing as arthur, but applied to the respective weapon
royal sierra
but i need aspect of guan yu?
sorry i'm being totally stupid here i'm just confused
glad phoenix
Yes, you need to unlock that first.
royal sierra
How do I go about unlocking that?
glad phoenix
I believe it requires 5-6 blood in spear, maybe a completed run, and just time, but don't quote me on that
split kelp
I think the legendary aspects all require you to have 5 blood invested into the weapon you try to unlock.
open berry
no
its just upgrades
not blood
theyre classified differently in the data
so its not the same
vapid parcel
iirc you need to talk to achilles for the spear
open berry
i just looked, its unlocking aspects. Requirements: ||guan yu requires you have seen the final boss and you have gotten at minimum 5 different aspects unlocked. zag inquiring with achilles about the weapons changing shape to suit him is required for the guan yu reveal to come up, so its speaking of opening aspects. after that sword requires 5 titan blood invested but thats pinned|| slight edit bc i forgot what channel i was in 💦
split kelp
Oh cool, thanks. I did not know that.
graceful quail
i understand the simple mechanic of unlock but they could have gone the extra mile and make it so each involve a god that had previously use the bow
for sword shield and fist it be poseidon, chaos and demeter, and they could have use nyx for the rail and artemis for the bow
and use the nectar mechanic
north garden
i just had a rather interesting conversation with Meg re: Zag carrying Nemesis aspect. its explicitly said ingame that the Erinyes are not Nyx's direct descendants but rather adopted, so technically it's possible they're children of Nemesis herself ingame?
graceful quail
didnt they born from titan blood?
open berry
yes
you can overhear a convo between meg and dusa at one point where meg is talking about her sisters and says something to the effect of them getting off on the wrong foot from the beginning and thats what happens when you're born of titan blood
graceful quail
my hope is a yes?
royal sierra
graceful quail
after that, bouldy respond to you
north cloak
Yay! I finally got a conversation with Dusa
And I see why some people are saying it is a friendzone conversation; some of the cliched lines
But I also don't think 'friendzone' is a useful way to call it
Also, yay Nyx!
supple dagger
Without really saying anything revealing, after they do finish the main story plotting, I would not be against them deciding to ship out any other community-related ideas they agree with out as a DLC that doesn't disrupt the canon too much but provides new content and adds an extra layer of lore. (like with future aspects on the weapons establishing that the events of the game exist BEFORE others, i.e. King Arthur and the Knights of the Roundtable aren't alive or a thing yet)
This thought was sitting in my head for a bit. 🙂 How are y'all?
hollow mortar
I'm ok, thank you! How do you do?
upbeat willow
I doubt it, SG from previous titles have moved onto new projects after they've finished the current one.
However we'll have to wait and see ^_^
supple dagger
@hollow mortar I'm doing well. Hopped back into Hades and having quite a time. Still can't wait for the update to come out soon, hopefully before June 30.
@upbeat willow also a bit of a unfortunate thing too. I still haven't finished Bastion properly. New Game Transistor was a heck of a challenge, and Pyre... well, I was going good... until I didn't. (admittedly, I was moving up in difficulty slowly and got to Hard mode, fought Uthlide for a second time and decided, no... this is not worth the stress.) Hades is definitely a much different game compared to the other three simply for the fact that we actually see it developing. BUT I'll respect their decision if they decide to move on. This roguelike game could use a little more than four regions with one of their bosses having a variety.
hollow mortar
Ah, it'd be fantastic! I love the new content they add with each update so I can't imagine how it would be with extra content after it leaves early access.
upbeat willow
I'd like there to be more content post release too admittedly, but we don't know what 1.0 is going to bring, there's also the blood price update to release
bastion is great, well worth finishing imo
supple dagger
Bastion so far hasn't been too bad.
I also definitely liked the idea of fighting parts of a titan that somehow escaped something that was caused by Zagreus' constant destruction of Tartarus, for example. It'd be one thing that only the Chthonic gods would know about but is never brought up whenever Zag left the Temple. (to avoid breaking canon) 😛
mystic mortar
Hades: "You're going nowhere, boy."
Zag: "mY KeePsAkeS..."
hollow mortar
I'm glad I'm not the only one
graceful quail
what does the victory remark "the big five oh" means?
oh i got it, sorry, means 50 clears in total
echo mist
hmm
north cloak
If I get Fisher King one more time instead of something cool...
I'm gonna do nothing about it
clear oracle
Hades: "You're going nowhere, boy."
Zag: "mY KeePsAkeS..."
What is this a reference to?
echo mist
everytime you enter the inter zone area
I just zoom to my closet
and open keepsakes
which triggers the zag dialogue "My Keepsakes..."
meanwhile FB is like "You're going nowhere boy..."
lmao
north cloak
Implying Zag would ever leave for good, leaving behind all those keepsakes
clear oracle
How would Zag and Meg relationship play out if he leaves?
north cloak
Rely on Hermes I suppose. I think Meg would respect his stubbornness to see out his mission at least
open berry
@north cloak ||he does actually. there's dialogue with chaos about this||
north cloak
He does ||what, exactly? Leave for good, and send messages to Meg with Hermes' help||?
open berry
no, chaos inquires about it ||and zag tells them that if he could leave the underworld for good, he would||
modern stone
I had to many dreams about Aphrodite last night since we talk about her
north cloak
Yeah I think he would too, tatz
He's good for the underworld, but it's not his future
shadow drum
does anyone in-game ever mention that cerberus and lernie are siblings?
north cloak
Awwwww
Knuckles is Hades's first DLC character
Can glide over enemies and pits
Has no HP but uses Obol as shield
bold niche
4th aspect of twin fists confirmed
pearl plank
how many times do i need to play the lute between runs?
mystic mortar
how many times do i need to play the lute between runs?
as many times as you want
it'll count how many times you play it, it doesn't need to be all at once
idle lake
So what are the chances that the Hades is not actually a bad guy and was in the right all along
modern stone
the chances are very high
there are tons of lines and hints that lead u think that hades is correct (in terms of escaping that is)
lute/lyre/harp all the same thing
though I do think a lute is guitar like now that u mention it
💙
modern stone
I wouldn't say they are "bad guys" in the traditional sense. At least some of them are not. Athena and Hermes come to mind, but you can tell the others let their hubris get to them. You can especially tell during a duo god boon room when u pick one over the other
ornate siren
(then again, in theory you could play 1d chess it'd just be very confusing to learn
idle lake
and after all, game's title is Hades, not Zagreus, so there ought to be more to this
modern stone
bot censored me
I would say most gods are insert male private part maybe even your mom? I think hermes might be the only one that is 100% chill all throughout
I don't know greek mythologies and don't remember some of the in game text
but I think nyx cloaked persephone either in or out of the underworld
so best assumption is the gods didn't like her relationship with hades
or she legit ditched you? But that would suck and be kind of dark for a parent to do
idle lake
blood pact update is not 1.0, right?
drifting citrus
i mean
idle lake
so it will take quite some time to unveil the whole story
drifting citrus
the parents in this game don’t have the best track record
haughty carbon
blood pact is an update before final release I think
modern stone
true but I don't think hades or nyx are as bad as just abandoning ur child
assuming she just did it for the sake of doing it
torpid turret
The lyre, lute, and harp are all different instruments fkajerfhkjehg
they are similar in appearance and all string instruments, but they're different
frail cobalt
I still feel like there’s something more to what happened with Persephone leaving. She leaves a note telling Hades to take care of Cerberus but makes no mention of their actual child? Something is up with that
Also the way Hades insists that Zag doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s trying to escape, that there’s something he doesn’t understand — makes it seem like there’s something Hades can’t tell him, for whatever reason
And when you beat him the first time he says to give her the message that Cerberus is doing very well
pastel tundra
In the mythology, there are some sources that say Zag is actually Zeus and Persephone's child
So it could be a surprise turnabout where Hades reveals he's his stepson and because of the whole devoured by Titans thing, can't actually escape hell because he's........ a dead god
junior field
that's clearly not the case in Hades
if anything, it's more likely that Hades created Zag himself
which explains why Perse doesn't mention her own son in the letter
frail cobalt
Doesn’t explain why Zag shares features with her
junior field
you take a piece of Perse, you take a piece of Hades, put em in a blender, ???, "arise, my son"
goes along with the whole blood manipulation thing that Hades and Zag have, too
plain palm
zeus theory is kinda out of the question since it involves zagreus being dionysus
and this story is adressed directly as a total nonsense in the game lore
regarding perse i'm really curious about demeter being wintery 'lately', as if she was ok with perse staying with hades, but is not ok now, when perse is missing
like, if perse left to olympus, surely demeter would switch to spring, right?
idle lake
maybe Hades was accused of something that Perse did
but he's willing to take the blame in order to hide that
plain palm
i'm actually not sure what demeter has to say about her daughter, i can't remember anything of note...
junior field
she had an entire monologue chain dedicated to Persephone, dude
plain palm
i'm sure she does! i'm just saying that i'm not that far into demeter's dialogue so i might be wrong about everything involving perse
oh wait it's demeter who tells zag about perse being born of mortal father
totally blanked on that, my bad
modern stone
she had an entire monologue chain dedicated to Persephone, dude
@junior field any place to read this.
either I spammed through it or don't remember
junior field
only in-game
pastel tundra
Also, Zeus pretty clearly calls Zag his nephew most times you talk to him in game
modern stone
tbf pers could have just not have told zeus
zeues could have banged theoretically and just left and not known himself. But other things in the game lead u to know he is not related to zeus like that
plain palm
wild theory: the red shade is actually perse
gentle copper
Ur biggest fan
plain palm
from the theseus fight
plain palm
i'm not even joking rn btw, i do actually think this is a possibility
primal cipher
Zag talks to them if you walk close
plain palm
like, olympians couldn't possibly miss perse on the surface, right? and how is she even able to leave the underworld? AND i certainly can imagine hades not noticing his wife in all the mess of his domain
echo mist
I mean... Demeter's basically made it permanently winter so
I'd say yes, the olympians can and do miss persephone
primal cipher
In a conversation with Nyx she says that she is hidden by her on the surface and she's given something to you that will let you find her
echo mist
I don't know about the let you find her part
plain palm
the only god who would know for sure where perse is in the underworld is probably hermes, and he tells zag not to tell other olympians about his help
yeah you're right about nyx, i've missed that...
but why tho...
UGH so many questions! i love this game and i LOVE the fact it's in early access
echo mist
well... it really might just be what was on the letter
the greek pantheon was known for being fickle of temperament
plain palm
yeah but i really don't think zag will make it out of hell
so... how will perse's storyline end then
plain palm
so we know for sure perse's not dead and not in the underworld atm?
pastel tundra
Maybe Perse will kill u and send you back?
plain palm
zag has no luck with parents
pastel tundra
Tbf, all the gods kinda draw short straws for parents
plain palm
styxes are ok with their parents i guess
yeah that's the only ones i can remember
sad
echo mist
eh imagine having a bunch of immortal parents
🤔
although I'm sure we all wish our parents were immortal
...maybe not all
plain palm
dunno if it's good or bad
there is a difference between an immortal parent and an eternal parent
echo mist
not in Nyx's case 😛
pastel tundra
there's a line in the game where dionysus and zagreus play a prank on orpheus and say they're the same guy/linked in myth somehow
gentle copper
oh yeah there's a song to go with it too!!
both dio and zag plays a prank on orpheus and he 100% beleives it
pastel tundra
ahh poor orpheus
echo mist
you know that song is based on the real world lore of Zagreus right?
crimson temple
Which if you look at it really sounds like a jumbled mess of rumors.
molten temple
Nyx indicates in the dialogue with Zagreus that he has some means of tracking down Persephone's location once he actually makes it to the surface.
Zag also has heterochromia of both of his parents, Persephone (green, because Demeter's art) and Hades (red). Both Nyx and Thanatos, gods who were old enough to remember Persephone's stint as Queen of the Underworld, confirm that those are his parents.
Nyx says that she did shroud Persephone's exit from the Underworld in the same way she does Zagreus, and Thanatos says she must've survived the escape and till now because if she had died she - like Zag, Meg, and Hades - would have arisen in the House from the Pool of Styx.
plain palm
so she managed to escape on the first try? that's impressive
molten temple
apparently. good for her honestly
cloud geode
Or! Hades didn't know she would have escaped and that's why she didn't encounter any monster
Our enemies are responding to Hades, right?
crimson temple
Either that, or she has/had some authority on wretches, exalted and the like, which is why they offered no resistance.
molten temple
So Achilles specifically mentions two of Nyx's other daughters, which I believe are Eris and Nemesis. I know he calls Eris by her incarnation, Strife (it uses the same name in her Rail aspect) like Hypnos is Sleep and Thanatos, Death. Does anyone remember what he called Nemesis? I know mythologically she's the incarnation of Retribution but...
actually I think he might've said Doom, whose name is Moros.
crimson temple
Isn't Eris also a daughter of Ares in canon mythology?
molten temple
Technically speaking, greek mythology has no canon. It's an amalgam of cult worship and state worship of a fractured region.
And not as far as I can see on neither wikipedia nor theoi
crimson temple
Hm. I must have been mistaken on that part. I remembered something about her and Ares being involved with inciting the Trojan war through the golden apple scheme, but I don't know where I read that.
molten temple
The two often are associated with one another however, because War breeds Discord and Discord breeds War.
I'm not seeing Ares mentioned in Eris starting up the Golden Apple fiasco, but I dimly recall a connection there too.
north cloak
I thought Achilles mentioned "Misery and Strife, but you don't hear much about them anymore" but my memory could be faulty
dapper socket
Just a random question but how big is the Blood Price update compared to the previous one? have the story manage to move past Hades bossfight yet?
molten temple
Unlikely that Blood Price will add content post-Hades fight.
And yes @north cloak, i think that is what he said. thanks
dapper socket
so it's a small update compared to the last?
molten temple
Well, new Aspects, i believe they said, and character art. Probably plenty of new story/voice lines.
I don't believe new weapons are in SGG's development cycle for Hades past the Twin Fists, and there's a decent number of favors already to develop relationships with the characters.
We'll just have to wait and see the patch notes when it releases
ornate siren
Iirc the blood price update is heavily background stuff
north cloak
If you have an AMD card you'll probably run a lot better
I believe the new engine supports hyperthreading as well, but I'll not sure
plain palm
how come the tiny vermin is considered a boss and not a mini-boss? at least according to the wiki
molten temple
Because it gets a proper health bar and death scene, like a formal boss.
technically, though, yes. it is a mini-boss.
dense sparrow
wait so Than is the son of Nyx, Nyx is the sister of Gaea, Gaea is the mother of Cronos, Cronos is the father of Hades, so Than is technically the uncle of Hades, and Hypnos is an uncle of Hades as well, so Zag is dating his granduncle
plain palm
oooh, i see, thanks for the answer!
@dense sparrow yep. figured it this week too and was kinda shocked
molten temple
It's greek mythology, so unfortunately a bit of incest amongst gods is unavoidable. though sgg is definitely trying to push away some of that what with the female elder 3 olympians being daughters of a different Titan than the male elder 3 olympians.
So Hades dated his first cousin once removed rather than his direct niece.
dense sparrow
but that means Than and Hypnos are of a higher class of being than Hades, they being manifestation of abstract concept and him being just the overseer of underworld. with less power than them
molten temple
I mean, they're chthonic entities and his godly portfolio is to rule the Underworld. So technically, he has exact power over them.
plain palm
not quite. they're certainly not working for hades in mythological 'canon', but they are not higher
dense sparrow
they are of a higher class, they are beings older than the gods
plain palm
it's a weird thing about personifications in greek mythology. they don't really have an established personality or a place in relationships between gods
they might, but they usually don't
dense sparrow
true, that
crimson temple
In Greek mythology, being elder doesn't mean being more powerful - the Olympians killed their parent generation, the Titans, and claimed their power. For all intents and purposes, they are the rulers of the overworld, through the means of a bloody uprising. The Cthonic gods, which in part date even further back, are almost apocryphal.
molten temple
older does not necessarily mean more powerful in greek mythology. examples include: Ouranos and the Titans. Both supplanted by their younger progeny.
dense sparrow
ah, yes, i mistook the generational weakening to be greek rather than egyptian and sumerian
plain palm
it is greek as well, it just starts kinda with the killing of cronus and expands to mortals
crimson temple
Considering the impressive number of half-gods and -goddesses sired, the gods don't seem to fret much about diluting their bloodline, at least.
molten temple
not really? zeus' children (artemis/ares/athena/dionysus/etc) all take "equal" positions as olympians.
It definitely gets weaker as you mix godly blood and mortal blood, but otherwise generational weakening isn't really a problem for gods.
plain palm
i believe the reproduction of gods just fits into one era which is the greatest? and every era after that becomes more mortal and more flawed
bold niche
well, Than does risk his career helping Zag, and once Hades finds out the truth, he calls him in to talk.. ||Than admits his guilt and says, that it's in the Hades' rights to punish him how he sees appropriate.. And Hades then says, that he is not going to, since he can't really fire Than, because the underworld is mostly his realm rather than Hades', and without Than there'd be nothing to do..|| i can't exactly remember the dialogue, but looks like Than subordinates to Hades voluntarily.. maybe bc Nyx told him to..
frail cobalt
I think the red shade could be persephone’s mortal father
Nyx has an interesting dialogue bit that suggests she’s been responsible for zag right from the start, not just at some later point when Persephone left
... that message disappeared for some reason? She says: “When you were born, and I was filled with fear for what it meant for you to be alive, to be responsible for you...”
dense sparrow
maybe the red shade is Neb-er-tcher disguised to sneak in another pantheon
open berry
I don't think the red shade represents anything beyond simply being an arena fan. like granted we haven't gotten all content yet but at the same time we are inching ever closer to launch and there's no commentary about the arena or anything within it beyond theseus and asterius
it's quite a leap to speculate the red shade has any narrative importance
@molten temple also I'm wondering if classifying vermin as a boss on the wiki is a bit confusing when the official boss count from sgg does not include it
open berry
possibly?
I went looking bc I couldn't remember if greg gave an explanation of why vermin is or isn't considered a boss but he only says it's excluded :/a
woeful schooner
Yeah the numbers don't seem to add up to me either. Is there any current method of knowing when a boss is a boss and when a mini boss is a mini boss?
open berry
read his reply