Yeah that might be it cuz I’m bad lol
#h1-story-discussion
stark tulip
hollow garden
Well I'll be doing that a lot lol in 120 heat runs
Honestly the solo Asterius fight seems to be what kills me the most
stark tulip
really? I prefer it over the butterfly machine lol
visual laurel
asterius deals solid damage but theseus is sneaky and i get a lot more backstab hits from that spear than i want to talk about
i hate it
hollow garden
Butterfly fight can be infuriating but there's a couple strategies to it. Namely Hunting Blades/Lightning Rod with Exit Wounds destroys it. Low Tolerance is also pretty good for it. You can apply poison and focus just on the adds.
And Theseus does way more damage to you in that fight if you allow him to, which is typically why I focus him first.
I'm good at kiting the Minotaur. I'm very bad at dealing with the god attacks, especially at increased speed.
stark tulip
the shield is difficult too. I’ll give him that
dense fox
The real question is: do you actualy get the autograph as a item
dense fox
I'd just like it if both of those two after a few times of you killing them when you enter they went
thesus: "actualy, you ain't half bad kid. You could really be something someday."
zag: Hopefully not egocentric
waxen crater
yes, please!
Let us gift Asterius <3
hes the only boss (Aside Meg) who treats us like equals and friends -before trying to tear our limbs appart
I wish there was an option to shut Theseus up
I love Hermes quips, dunno why he asked if i want him to be quiet uwu
visual laurel
clearly hermes is used to being told to shut up 😔
snow brook
As my boy Skelly would say, "Less talking more walking." He is a messenger after all.
stark tulip
hermes.... my lad.... what are they doing to u up there... stay down here with me
visual laurel
one of my favorite little things is the implication that not only has hermes talked with thanatos before but he a) thinks thanatos is super weird, and b) has heard thanatos talk about zag...
don't ask me to dig up those lines bc i don't remember what they were but they definitely Were
stark tulip
vggbbgh thanatos just talks about zag to everyone
runic terrace
hermes is thanny's one (1) friend and even hes not super close
visual laurel
and the only way...he would know that.....is if thanatos had been talking about zag,
runic terrace
YEAH
thannys just going on and hermes is like [checking his watch] uhuh yes so sad good luck with whatevers going on bye
stark tulip
Thanatos has two conversation topics with ppl and those are the only ones he ever uses
runic terrace
-death
-zag
-zag dying
stark tulip
Not super related but I also got the line about Aphrodite’s husband the other day which has... implications about Hephaestus and other gods
simple cave
But Hephaestus is aphrodite's husband, is he not?
bleak osprey
[thanatos and zagreus sitting in front of a board that says DYING.]
there's only one thing worse than dying
[than pulls a piece of paper off the board. now it says ZAGREUS DYING.]
me!
NO
strange cipher
Ending theories?
kind raft
the temple of styx is so incredibly cool
i got so worried when i saw cerberus and thought we had to kill him, but i got so relieved when we are getting him a snack instead
dense fox
I'm just imagining the meeting of underworld dudes just before he reaches the temple the first time:
Hades: I've had enough of my son getting far in the underworld.
Meg: Let me gather the furies, the heroes, everyone in your service. We can crush him as a army-
Hades: no.
Meg:?
Hades: I have allowed this foolishness to go on for too long. This is my error. CERBERUS, TO ME! I will deal with Zagreus myself.
(literaly everyone in the house pulls a oh sfour letter word face)
simple cave
When the dialogue came where zag said en garde, i just sat there for five minutes thinking: no not cerberus, plz
kind raft
||wow, we get to actually fight hades. he deals a lot of damage, but hes not TOO difficult to figure out, i even beat him on my first try- he has a second form and i am on 2 health||
kind raft
i mean it wasnt REALLY 2 health
but against that boss, it might as well have been
i had no idea what was happening afterwards, broke some vases and then died
i think i got stunned or something too
i had something like a hundred health or something thanks to getting the aphrodite boon that boosts your centaur hearts on epic rarity, and then picking pretty much all the centaur hearts i could have gotten
i had even gotten the athena boon that gives you an extra death defiance and gives you more health when you use them
not much help though when i have no idea what im doing against that boss
overall though, really really cool area and boss
i like it a lot
amber canyon
Man even with a busted bow build, he took 3 death defiances off of me
And thats on no heat
onyx spoke
the urns cause an aoe damage and brief stun when they break
amber canyon
Yeah the stupid urn phase is where I take most of the damage
I also dont quite like his minion spawns
He spawned 3 of the invuln stones
onyx spoke
personally I feel like he deals a little too much damage, especially given how he has Boiling Blood and minions
amber canyon
Both times
onyx spoke
super elite soul catchers are the devil's work
amber canyon
Fun fact: The final boss can in fact be made invulnerable by them
wintry belfry
Actually not "a bit" too much, it's just "too much"
cosmic crescent
You're a too much.
wintry belfry
Keep in touch 👌
kind raft
latest patch notes: increased damage on some moves of the final boss
so basically you die in one hit now ok
simple cave
Ye i saw it as well
But they will have their reasons for making that change i assure you
wintry belfry
"They have the reason" - it's simply because some stuff like athena deflects or ares ult gives you free win
So if the screen is not filled with projectiles and boss does not kill you in 2-3 hits - it's free win for those builds
If you don't use those builds - good luck so
onyx spoke
okay so they made the boss even harder
I'll have to see once I get to him again but yikes
digital crag
🇫
cerulean yoke
I just got killed by 120-damage attack - and this is unupdated version
digital crag
????
onyx spoke
yeah he already absolutely destroys you
dreamy wyvern
Just... uh... stack dodge? 
onyx spoke
he does so much damage already, and then doubles that damage
digital crag
bruh my boiling blood doesn't even double damage
wintry belfry
@onyx spoke Okay but it does not work like "okay, boss is easy, let's do double damage"
It should be "okay this stuff made the game easy, let's rework the concept"
onyx spoke
the boss was never easy though?
digital crag
if it's a few specific op builds making a run too easy, then nerf those builds?
wintry belfry
Difficulty is not about unfair 1000000 damage and boring 100000 hp, it's a crutch
cerulean yoke
Also Quick Recovery decided whether I win or lose a battle in 70% I think. Because when you get clipped by 60 damage attack, you'd want at least 20 of it back
onyx spoke
I'll have to see for myself how the new boss is later
but imo it didn't need any damage increase
lofty pier
what weapon did you guys use in your playthrough where you got to the fight with hades?
still sigil
i feel like hades is a bit overtuned yeah, maybe shift is difficulty more toward "heated" run
onyx spoke
the game shouldn't be balanced around heat though, heat should be balanced around the game
wintry belfry
I killed him twice with
- Shield + poseidon attack + artemis dash bonus dmg + daedalus double attack dmg + daedalus fast bull rush
- Railgun with dionysus poison attack + infinite ammo and other random stuff (don't remember honestly)
still sigil
sure, but hades having 1MMM hp and big big damage isnt very engaging either
cerulean yoke
I think, at this point I managed to win over Hades with each weapon. Or each besides the Bow, I can't remember how good that run went
wintry belfry
Oh, I also used artemis cast bonuses (dmg on dispose + reduced stuck duration + artemis cast itself)
cerulean yoke
I'm just on the leave from work and just playing Hades a lot 😄
lofty pier
i got him with the railgun and the one ammo but doing i think +80% damage and a special consisting of 3 shots
i feel!
still sigil
game should have a progression system that encourage fighting harder encounters after clearing the "normal" run imo
amber canyon
I got him with shield, bow and spear
Though the shield run was basically just Ares cast
cerulean yoke
I had a whole run centered around one thing, but in Styx I got Ares cast (had none) and Artemis/Ares duo that made it homing, and defeated just with that instead of carefully crafted build I had until that point 😄
still sigil
also beating hades without a deep mirror investment is very very hard
amber canyon
Yeah thats how it went for me
Though part of that was the fact that I didnt get any attack boons
And my second hammer only gave me special upgrades for shield which I dont use
dreamy wyvern
What's the highest heat levels that people here have beaten Hades on? And what pact configuration did you go for? I was too scared and turned the heat down to 0 so I could beat him once 
wintry belfry
🤔
Alright, my long message got wiped because of one word, don't want to repeat it though
frozen jolt
sorry, no swears allowed in this server!
cerulean yoke
HECK
frozen jolt
frozen jolt
well, i dont control the bot. please just dont use words you know will get your message deleted next time 😉
kind raft
"Athena deflect gives you free win against the final boss" i hope thats not true, because i got deflect on dash and shield special and an epic hermes boon that gave me 3 extra dashes
and that would mean that im the worst player to yet existt
ornate shore
Dash is enough
radiant kindle
So has anyone had a new interaction with Meg where ||she's in your room 'collecting the last of her things'|| there is kinda an implication that she an Zagreus were an item at one point. BUT I think it's left vague as a sneaky Supergiant red herring. I think she was ACTUALLY ||coming from the antechamber where skele hangs out. Perhaps she was getting a old weapon of hers meaning the final weapon will be a whip!||
ornate shore
Athena Dash + Artemis|Athena Duo
rapid zinc
At least to me, it was much more than an implication
ornate shore
Most of their dialogue after you give her all the gifts imply that there was something between them
radiant kindle
Hypnos will be heart broken! Yeah I was never sure if they were just close being brought up in the underworld together or a thing. Still holding out for my whip tho..
rapid zinc
They were an item and are now well and truly over
ornate shore
Hypnos is madly in love with Asterius now, he'll be fine
rapid zinc
I mean isn't everyone
radiant kindle
Fair ^
ornate shore
cannot argue with that
runic terrace
hypsterius....GENIUS
ornate shore
Just beat final boss btw
Im curious how will they justify Zagreus returning back after all the story is revealed
radiant kindle
Hmmm I'm of the opinion that Lord Hades, while an a-hole is also shielding Zag from a terrible truth. If SG are following the myths in a detailed way there is good reason to believe Persephone isn't on the surface. Maybe when Zag learns the truth he'll do the whole "my home was here all along" character arc thing
ornate shore
And then what will be his motivation for escaping again ? Just for sport ?
cuz there is clearly more new story stuff in the Underworld after you escape
I guess there is still Patroclus and Sisyphus who need a company
radiant kindle
Yeah good point, idk how drastically the story will change between now and full release
still sigil
got hit by hades for 160. Interesting
ornate shore
Yeah Hades is no joke
still sigil
his damages are a bit of a joke tho
ornate shore
Hits like a truck, summons mini-bosses
still sigil
got tons of hp and clear debuff each time he stealth, wich is all the time
ornate shore
From what i noticed his chances to go into stealth vary depending on the weapon
when i used ranged weapons he cloaked much more often then with melee
ornate shore
Rail is pretty good on him yeah
still sigil
dyonisus poison is not tho x)
atomic forge
Zag chokes on the Styx fountain now. 
still sigil
shotgun poison rail with spread and the boon that up the damage if 3 enemies are poisoned by something like 160% is pretty nice tho
ornate shore
glad they nerfed it
still sigil
it crush everything except hades and his perma decurse
dreamy wyvern
For sure, with even a small +gold buff you could pretty consistently buy out the temple shop after running through all the tunnels
Actually having to choose more of the time is cool
ornate shore
Most of the time i buy out the shop even without bonuses to gold
atomic forge
And Cerberus barks at you when you attack him, but Zag said "Won't even lift a paw, will you?" 😭
atomic forge
They're a little OP if you get them really early in a run.
Picking up Exclusive Access from the Tartarus Bloodless fight? I walked over Hades that run.
ornate shore
I havent noticed it in the change logs for resent updates, but was x5 rockets for rail removed ?
Havent seen it in a while
atomic forge
Spread Fire?
ornate shore
not shure
special fires x5 rockets at once in a spread pattern but they deal less dmg
atomic forge
That may have been Aphrodite's Scatter Shot, and yes it was removed.
It now does a single large hit in a short-ranged AoE.
ornate shore
oof
atomic forge
Been at least three or four months, too.
ornate shore
but why tho, they could have just removed ability to pair it with x3 rockets on second hammer
was it that OP ?
x3 rockets are better imo
shut patrol
wait, so is cerberus the final boss? And if so, does that mean we might soon see persephone
onyx spoke
||cerb is not the final boss||
shut patrol
Or is it going to be a plot twist and you have to slay cerberus 50 times for the true end?
calm geyser
||^^" No. You do encounter Cerberus on the run though||
shut patrol
Oh nvm
So far, I haven't been able to consistantly get past minotaur and the other guy. I think he's achilles, I just think of him as that one annoying boss.
calm geyser
Theseus?
wintry belfry
It's Theseus
calm geyser
Backstab him.
wintry belfry
digital crag
focus on one of them first
they both have a second phase at half health so the worst situation is whittling down both their healths evenly
calm geyser
Or stack Vengeance boons. That might help. Doom too.
atomic forge
Focus down Theseus first.
Once Asterius is gone and he's at half health he doesn't "properly" telegraph his spear throw.
So dealing with that (which is nightmarish without Epic Greatest Reflex and Divine Dash) on top of Olympian attacks tends to be too much. Asterius hits harder, but his attacks are overall easier to avoid.
onyx spoke
I usually kill the Minotaur first because dealing with Theseus' god AoE with the Minotaur chasing you is nightmarish
serene furnace
Ok fun story
I absolutely blew through all four levels
Only to be dealt 150 damage by the boss
Dear god
calm geyser
Yeah it's been an experience.
dreamy wyvern
You see him take off the cape? You know he's about to flex on you
150 damage is about what I'd expect from a god just whacking you
(But yeah it's brutal)
serene furnace
Like I’m sitting there thinking “huh I’ve read Percy Jackson, didn’t the helm of darkness make you invisi-YEP YEP IT DID”
dreamy wyvern
Haha! The lore
serene furnace
How much health does he have
onyx spoke
two phases
calm geyser
Yes.
serene furnace
I had a doom run with the rail
And I had it to where it stacks (I had 16 shots)
So max is around 500 damage
It barely took anything off his health
calm geyser
Oh dear lord. I didn't realise it was that high.
dreamy wyvern
Stacking doom + Ares&Aphrodite duo boon sounds spicy
serene furnace
I kept getting ares; but no legendary boon ;(
calm geyser
That's some bad luck. :/
Ares and Athena's Duo conversation is hilarious btw. As is Zeus and Ares'.
serene furnace
Ok this is fun
Shield: hammer upgrade -> special hits 8
Zeus -> special shoots lightning bolts
Also Zeus -> Jolt damage from lightning
serene furnace
Most bosses have minions right?
So the shield will bounce off each one
Doing damage to EVERYTHING, then hitting the enemy right next to it and repeating
dreamy wyvern
Hm, yeah a couple I suppose. Feels like you'll never get full value off the 8 bounces. (Unless the shield can pinball between only 2 enemies)
icy vale
I didn’t realize Persephone had a VA already hmmmmmmmmmm
merry sorrel
Maybe the final boss fight would be against the mom
digital crag
:(
merry sorrel
It’s stock rpg ending isn’t it? Fight your parent and/or god with power of friendship
digital crag
oh my god it's THE stock jrpg final boss
either you fight god or you fight your dad
serene furnace
In this case; both
icy vale
Why not both!
merry sorrel
We fought both in hades, now if we fight the mom who is also both we get 4x value
serene furnace
I am NOT going to bash the goddess of fertility’s face in with a shield
merry sorrel
She is also The Maiden
Don’t treat her like some spoiled princess, she is a power to fear
serene furnace
Meh
merry sorrel
It’s canon in real life though, some people feared her more than they feared hades
serene furnace
I know
rancid dome
Hades is a monster. Holy cow.
stone juniper
so i fought hades just now
i was at 114 hp went I arrived, he killed me in one hit
is it possible to beat him? he hit me a few times then did this huge spin attack and them killed me in one hit
frozen jolt
nope
frozen jolt
he does a lot of damage tho
stone juniper
yeah i should probs have expected that
frozen jolt
if you like trying for certain builds and not letting rng just take you wherever it may, i found the zeus and artemis duo to be really good
cast builds? surprisingly effective now even without the hermes cast boon, somehow
digital crag
cast builds have the most cheese potential
stone juniper
huh cool
really?
i rarely get runs with good boons for cast, usually just put as much dmg on aegis as possible
ty for advice guys 
stark tulip
cast builds with aphrodite's thing are 👌
wintry belfry
I got artemis boon that deals 300 dmg on cast dislodge - combined with additional cast charges makes it sick even with default cast
dreamy wyvern
I find cast boons hard to manage, as taking any of the cast boons that don't get lodged in enemies feels like I'm giving up 50% attack and special damage
But apparently the Ares cast does some dirty things with the right boons? It's surprising to me!
blissful ermine
@visual laurel whoa, that's kind of amazing! 
What a tale!!!!
frozen jolt
visual laurel
thank the ancient greeks
dreamy wyvern
What the heck am I watching
Fantastic
For how incredibly safe fighting with that cast would be, it does so much damage! That's rad
frozen jolt
37 damage a tick.... heck yeah
wintry belfry
lol
frank glade
Supergiant releasing the final boss' theme
I am now 100% satisfied with this update
blissful ermine
That video--!!! Oh my gooooooodss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That IS the most OP thing I've ever seen!!
On the topic of that, how does one insure they get Duo boons anyway?!? Is there a pattern to it or anything? I've only gotten them about 2 times! From what I heard on the recent awesome Dev Stream, having certain boons leads to certain Duo ones but how can you possibly know or insure you'll get any at all?!
drifting citrus
you get the prerequisite boons and hope one of the gods gives you the boon
drifting citrus
yes, but the dataminers and lucky people tell everyone else 😛
it's probably all on the wiki by now
thank you wiki editors we love you
valid epoch
the prerequisites are usually pretty intuitive
like artemis doesn't offer buffs to crits unless you have a boon that grants crits, can't get hunting blades without slicing shot and an artemis boon, etc
hollow garden
usually most duo boons are "1 primary boon from each god"
as in an Attack / Special / Cast / Dash / Wrath ability
there are some exceptions, but that's a pretty good rule to go buy
digital crag
hollow garden
I can't guarantee the new duo boons are exactly correct as I haven't done data mining
However the data I've put there seems to be correct based on my own runs, the runs of other players I've talked to, and gut intuition. That being said if alternate info comes up that is more accurate, please don't hesitate to update the wiki.
merry sorrel
so where do ambrosia come from
digital crag
bros
hollow garden
no idea but we better be able to give it to theseus soon so he can frat boy crush ambrosia bottles against his head
waxen crater
waxen crater
he** yeah!!!
And now, Aphro/Myrmidon shows again to be the superior survival strategy!!!
first win of this update, im pretty happy x3
hollow garden
Aphro Myrmidon might be required just to get me a deflect dash in Styx in my run :notlikethis:
waxen crater
please dont belittle my accomplishment, Peary uwu
waxen crater
I KNOOOW, I tried it over 10 times!
hollow garden
"there's not even a point I already got the statue"
yeah but... you didn't make it to styx did you
:p
waxen crater
lol
hollow garden
imagine snakestones doing your entire health bar in 3 seconds
that's 120 heat styx
hollow garden
tbf im a madman and i play 500% damage
but thats cause i hate frenzy and pain tolerance makes bosses way harder so its not really worth running
im also using the rail which has absolutely no defensive options lol
waxen crater
i think frenzy is very doable
too much damage just destroys me
pain tolerance is literal pain
like
5k health numbskulls XD
hollow garden
bosses dont need more health lol
the difference between shared misery and pain tolerance is one doesnt buff bosses
and misery offers more heat
hollow garden
so an extra half chad?
waxen crater
yeah XD
hollow garden
:kappa:
thank god i can just reload the save I made of a 120 heat hunting blade vicious cycle post hydra
so i can keep running it over and over until I get a perfect Elysium run
which I can then run over and over until I nail the styx run
and then fight hades and say I "beat" it and yes it works for me cause i cant imagine trying to do it "legit"
waxen crater
gosh, I tried so hard and never n my life got hunting blades, tops critical hits AND Ares legendary, but never hunting blades
I also got 3/4 of Hades second phase with my Meme Revenge Built
it was a failure
I didnt manage to get Ares' doom revenge TTwTT
hollow garden
I expect it works well besides the fact that you have to be near him
waxen crater
it was a mess of low power boons and no-pomes XD
hollow garden
which is why even though everyone be like "hunting blades meh" its why i continue to praise it. Hunting Blades deals effective damage with you having to be nowhere near the enemies.
But yes its much better with the ares legendary.
hollow garden
merciful end is great
waxen crater
I though it was VERY meh...
hollow garden
it doesnt sound great
waxen crater
if it was 120 extra as promised on the site I would love
waxen crater
but its only 90
but it did well enough this time (it was in my victory run there too)
hollow garden
wiki hasnt been updated yet, however its the Doom damage + the 90 afaik
at least it feels like that with how much damage I do with it
waxen crater
gently apply doom with sword to the enemy's face and slap a Mercyfull End at them with a Deflecting Dash
yeah, I saw the nerf today
pretty sad
am still very salty they nerfed coinbag
hollow garden
coinbag got nerfed? when
waxen crater
it was 250 extra coin at rank 3
its now 200
dont know when they nerfed it though
I just know I felt it in Styx and it hurt
hollow garden
definitely not this patch, its been that way for a while
waxen crater
yeah, I know its been a while
I just didnt use it for like
30 runs and didnt realise the nerf until recently
and am still salty XD
they just made money extremlly more important...
like
you MUST have Chaos extra money boon to have enough for last Charon shop now..
digital crag
at least you can scrape together enough for just a hammer in styx
guess i need to waste less money on healing items now
waxen crater
I almost never buy life essences
and there's so MANY rats in Styx that Eye of Lamia makes it super easy to get snacks x3
digital crag
you run feather duster in styx?
oh wait nvm eye of lamia
i just haven't seen a well in styx yet
waxen crater
there were like 3 last run
it offered treasure trove, but I was scared it wouldnt spawn so I didnt try summoning one
they dont spawn on their own too
hollow garden
honestly im considering running feather duster in styx
ive never run it
but so many pots its worth doing tbh
frosty fable
Orpheus and Achilles are making fun of Zag 
compact verge
rood
wanton osprey
Poseidon boon is an alternative to chaos gates and the coin bag as well for getting enough gold to make styx useful.
Uhh. I didn’t think i used a bad word in that >_>
But whatever
compact verge
I was saying that about Orph and Achilles making fun of Zag
frosty fable
"Zagreus the ever-boastful". ru~de
still sigil
welp i think i'm done till further changes, redacted is too much for me atm
it's frustrating
i did ten-ish tries
stark tulip
it’s just about clicking with the right build
Best advice I can give is run through Styx all the way for shop money
still sigil
p2 spam galore is destroying me
compact verge
Redacted has great fight music, and I'm really glad it's on youtube so I can actually listen to it for more than a minute
compact verge
It has everything I want in a boss battle score, heavy metal, a theremin and multiple stages
stark tulip
the theremin really is KILLER
cunning needle
had the best conversation with achilles
zag: “achilles i think i’m an actual murderer now”
achilles: "uh....it's chill you're just sending them here"
compact verge
Oh no, is Zag taking Tis's comments seriously?
cunning needle
he has been killing real living satyrs and rats now
compact verge
Oh, right, I forgot about them
blissful ermine
I just googled what a Theremin is--WOW! That instrument is soooo cool!!!!
compact verge
I know, right? Dope as heck.
blissful ermine
Sooo UHHHH I finally "defeated" REDACTED, many thanks to Artemis's Call ❤ but then he regained his health?!!?!?!?! Is THAT the second phase everyone's been talking about?!!?!?! HOW THE HECK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE THAT WHEN THE FIRST ONE ALONE IS CRAZY?!!?!?! I didn't know he was going to regain all his health!!!! 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮 😮
I was at SIXTEEN health and barely managed to get the last hit in, and them bam, he gets it all back!!?!?!?!? It was terrifying and confusing at the same time?!!!!!!!!!!
compact verge
I mean, it makes sense that Redacted has his own version of Death Defiance, but it's also a big shock when none of the other bosses have a Round 2.
cunning needle
but then again, none of the other bosses are the lord of the realm
compact verge
Fair point
blissful ermine
I guess that makes sense! It was just so UNEXPECTED!
Oh I forgot to black out the name so I put "redacted" instead I don't know how to black out the text! 
compact verge
You're in the spoiler room, I assume you can just call him his name, I just like calling him Redacted because that's what Hypnos said killed me when I got back home
blissful ermine
also what did he say when he entered Deadly Phase Two?? I accidenly skipped over it 🙏 😢
Yeah that was really funny 😂 😂 📜 💤
also my fingers hurt from trying to go to face Hades twice in a row LOL!!!
compact verge
I mean, you must be doing something right if you can get to him twice in a row
west moat
getting to him isn't that difficult.
surviving his entire kit, though, that's a bit tougher.
hollow garden
yeah real talk my first fight against him i blew thru all my death defiances thinking "oh this is easy"
then got a rude awakening to a laser
also getting to him is a nightmare in 500% damage id wager beating him is actually easier lol
atomic forge
You SAY that, but the pulses from his Casts would argue otherwise.
atomic forge
Cause of death: Hemlock
"Not Socrates, just a fan."
When your humor is darker than the void from which Chaos sprang.
atomic forge
Hades just opened the fight with going invisible. I hit him with one Cast and then he was gone.
sinful peak
TFW you enter the final boss fight, but the boss has Mask()
ornate siren
Redacted.Mask(this);
lyric pine
While Hades' second state is much more dangerous, it is apparently also significantly weaker in terms of how much damage it can soak up
Changing him from a tough boss balenced between damage and health to a glass cannon who will wreck your day if you dont finish him off quick enough
cosmic crescent
Mate
I would not say that the first phase is "balanced between damage and health" right now.
Can't say much about the second phase. Damage seemed insane, yes, but I only saw the fight once or so without the game glitching out on me.
onyx spoke
yeah the decision to buff him was honestly confusing
hades just feels insurmountable now, even more than before
cosmic crescent
I actually think he was pretty fine before.
Can't speak from a heat point of view here, but it was absolutely fine.
For people who DO want the challenge, the pact would have been the option of course
so I don't understand the buff at all.
Also
sinful peak
In my humble opinion, the game should be “reasonably beatable” without heat about at the time you start getting rerolls for darkness
cosmic crescent
Wanna hear something funny?
Here is something funny.
I just defeated the new overpowered Hades, right?
And as he is kneeling there, he mutters
"I was once much more powerful than this...."
NOOOOO!
NO YOU WERE NOT!
I actually yelled that at my screen.
sinful peak
Is he actually delusional?
cosmic crescent
He might be.
somber gull
He doesn’t have patch permanence 😔
frank glade
Hades is a b-word to the level of Theseus
lyric pine
was he changed in the minipatch?
somber gull
Yes
cosmic crescent
Big time.
I don't think I am kidding when I say that they pretty much just went and doubled his damage.
Also, the floor leading up to him, Styx, has gotten harder too.
Harder hitting enemies, slightly longer corridors.
sinful peak
Anti-heat sounds honestly genius, talking about the difficulty of the last floor. I personally don’t care about the challenge nearly as much as I care about storyline.
wary nebula
I got all the way to the end then lost to hades and it was my 69th run. im so tilted
hollow garden
Yeah I don't think Hades needed the buff he got.
frozen jolt
A lot of people seem to think so
maybe it’ll be reverted or otherwise somewhat toned down
visual laurel
Of course it being depressingly hard could be the point
hollow garden
People were struggling on his old version. I'm glad Styx got the buffs cause it felt a little easy, but seems like Hades buffs went a bit overkill.
I mean I was still struggling on the final boss, I wasn't guaranteed to beat it.
amber canyon
I don't mind the damage being high as much as the damage being near impossible to avoid
visual laurel
The stun urns are cheap >>
frozen jolt
Tbf I also haven’t tried it, I only played one run pre-minipatch and won it
amber canyon
The final boss should be the ultimate test of skill, so avoidable but beefy hits should be fine
hollow garden
I think it should be beatable, but I don't personally enjoy extensive amounts of "screaming at my PC rage difficulty" which is definitely what Hades feels like.
frozen jolt
so idk how hard it is in practice but uh, it sounds like a lot
wary nebula
^
visual laurel
I was 4-0 wins/losses before the patch and i'm 0-2 now
hollow garden
I haven't gotten a chance to play the new version cause I'm doing the same 120 heat run over and over, but it sounds like his damage was basically doubled, which seems a bit overkill.
visual laurel
i get halfway through phase two or thereabouts most of the time
frozen jolt
if anyone can beat hades with 120 heat in this patch I would hardly be able to believe it
wary nebula
i never fought him pre patch how doees it compare to the current cause current seems way to strong to me but idk
hollow garden
I mean the strat is "don't get hit once"
amber canyon
I think I ran one run and barely clinched it after burning through 4 death defies
Urn phase did almost all the damage
visual laurel
i think it took me 3 or 4 tries to beat theseus and the minotaur when elysium first came out so i'm using that as my baseline i guess
the stupid shockwaves from his bloodstones kept getting me
frozen jolt
“Don’t get hit” is the best strategy, and also a very difficult one,
amber canyon
Yeah
hollow garden
It took me 3 attempts to beat Theseus when he first came out (and that was before he got a slew of nerfs in post patches)
It took me 4 attempts to beat the old version of Hades, which felt pretty fair.
amber canyon
"Dont get hit because if you d, it'll hurt" works as a design strategy
See: Asterius
But if you can't reasonably avoid getting hit
hollow garden
I also think what's hurting Hades more is the fact that he's harder than Theseus, yet we get no more rooms than before to get a solid build going.
amber canyon
It just changes to "have enough resources to take anlot of hurt"
hollow garden
The biome shortening kinda hurts the ability to get a good build going, and Hades is a boss where you need to have a really good build to win tbh.
amber canyon
And I don't think that's a good idea
You should always be able to beat a boss regardless of build
It should just get much easier with a good one
dreamy wyvern
Each biome getting a little shorter does make the game a little harder overall right?
hollow garden
It makes the game surprisingly much more difficult
And imo not in a good way unfortunately.
flat saddle
^
amber canyon
It also kinda kills the pace personally
dreamy wyvern
How many less rooms is it per run overall?
hollow garden
Not counting Styx, it's about 5 less rooms.
Hydra appears at 24, not 28/29 which is the big change
dreamy wyvern
That is a lot less prep you get for that guy
hollow garden
The problem is counting Styx, you get those 5 room rewards. But you're going into Hades with basically the exact same development in build as you did Theseus.
And Hades is a much harder fight than Theseus.
hollow garden
The big shop doesn't seem to ever offer enough or what I need tbh.
dreamy wyvern
It's usually about 50% poms which isn't always useful
hollow garden
I found I've become incredibly reliant on Fated Authority to reroll every miniboss room to be something I need in order to get a strong build going, which... doesn't feel particularly great
Especially when I have to turn that off for a 120 heat run.
I definitely don't think Hades needed the buffs he got, but I also think that players should have more opportunities and rewards to get a good build running at least before they reach Styx. That way Styx is more about surviving and perfecting your build rather than desparately scrounging up enough pieces to make your build functional.
dense fox
MFW you realize the entire game is just slightly edgy teen arguing with dad who thinks he's right and getting into a fight about it
runic terrace
are u really edgy if skulls and goth colors are mandatory wear 
goth conformity....
show me a pastel zag and then ill believe he's rebellious
amber canyon
Would underworld punk be wearing pastel colours and kitschy accessories then?
.... Damn, ninjad
visual laurel
pastel zag would be a VERY good look
runic terrace
YES
hoary sapphire
I'm so salty right now, Hades killed me with his laser through the rock
still sigil
yeah hitbox are funky
somber gull
https://twitter.com/raspbearyart/status/1100259719409627136 the pastel Zag you sought
amber canyon
That's not hotboxes, that's a recent chnage
runic terrace
yeah!!!!!!!!!
amber canyon
Damn Zag is pretty
runic terrace
zag comes home looking like THIS and we have rebellion on our hands
stark tulip
I like the heart bow
bleak osprey
aphrodite zag 
somber gull
heartbreaker incarnate
hoary sapphire
@amber canyon nope, rock has blocked the laser 2 times before (in the same fight)
amber canyon
What music would he listen to in his rebellious phase?
stark tulip
Carly Rae jepsen
somber gull
Louie Zong
amber canyon
... Katie Perry
hollow garden
That's not zag, it's eros and no one can tell me otherwise
digital crag
cuuuute
somber gull
This is one of the pieces I keep in mind at all times when I think about what I’m striving for with my art
Anyways tho back to Hades
digital crag
i wish i was a style chameleon
somber gull
Case of “you have to master the rules to know how to break them”
Bordering on #off-topic-discussion but the last thing I’ll mention is that this artist is a professional concept artist so... they know the rules very well haha
wanton osprey
Someone was mentioning win/loss with the old hades vs current. I was like 8/3 on last one, 0/6 on current. I beat him first try on launch, but it was also one of the strongest builds I’ve had since the patch dropped so....
lucid light
I just got to hades for the first time with 4 death's defiances using aegis and damn!! that fight is so hard!! I ended up losing but im so invigorated
wanton osprey
Current fight made me demotivated to keep trying, glad to see you’re excited for another attempt.
frank glade
Pre patch I felt Hades was kind of easy, really. Haven't tried fighting him after the buff though.
wanton osprey
Honestly he’s overtuned now.
hollow garden
He's in my opinion definitely overtuned.
lucid light
the first phase or both?
wanton osprey
Prepatch he wasn’t hard really, but he was still a step up from Thesus. Now he’s like lightyeaes ahead of Thesus. Second phase mostly, first phase just takes too long now.
lucid light
because the first phase was relatively doable imho (my build was also pretty busted)
cunning needle
i’ve fought him one post-patch and won fairly easily but it was aegis which is still incredibly powerful
wanton osprey
It’s not bad, but it takes so long
lucid light
What weapons do you guys use? I can't seem to make it past eylesium with anything but aegis. Coroncht (Bow) is close behind but i have a hard time aiming and shooting at thesius and bullman duyring that boss fight
cunning needle
didnt take any damage at all from his first phase
hollow garden
Everything just hurts way more, which I don't think was very fair since he has lots of attacks which can be near impossible to dodge.
wanton osprey
Aegis mostly.
wanton osprey
I don’t touch the spear, everything else I can get to styx with 50% of runs or more.
hollow garden
Shield feels like a must pick atm cause damage blocking
I say this but I'll never use it out of spite because I love the railgun too much
frank glade
Sword>rest
onyx spoke
I never liked the shield
I used it only when it still deflected attacks and then never used it again
hollow garden
I dislike the shield because it feels incredibly easy to get value out of and it feels like the sword too much.
I feel like the game is way easier with the shield, to a degree I find less enjoyable, which is why I don't really use it.
I feel cheap when using it, and don't really enjoy my experience.
One of the reasons I gravitated to the rail is because I think it's by far the hardest weapon to get accustomed to and use. It's got a fairly high skill cap.
lucid light
I think that's fair. I do tend to notice the shield is either the strongest or the weapon with the lowest skill floor compared to the rest
hollow garden
The rail is a weapon which requires a fundamentally different approach to Hades because you can't stagger enemies with it.
amber canyon
Unless you get explosive fire
flat saddle
I dont like the rail because aiming the special with a controller is unpleasant
onyx spoke
triple bomb crit special build was my favorite with the rail
I had hunter's mark + artemis special, so nothing except Hades could survive
hollow garden
And I really like that. It's incredibly unique, and requires you to weave in an out of combat, timing your special with constant fire to keep enemies stuck in it long enough to get blasted.
Though at the moment I do think it's a bit weak compared to pretty much every other weapon.
onyx spoke
it relies very heavily on getting a hammer early on
since the hammer is what dictates your boon choices later on, rather than the opposite for most weapons
onyx spoke
my weapon ranking of power goes Shield <- Bow <- Sword <- Spear <- Rail
hollow garden
That's very true. Rail is incredibly reliant on hammers because it's hammers are the most influential and powerful hammers in the game, in all honesty.
onyx spoke
spear's only value imo is spin attack
hollow garden
My weapon ranking in terms of power would go:
Shield
Sword and Bow. I think these are tied.
Rail
Spear
onyx spoke
rail and spear it's hard for me to choose between
I've had great runs with both, and awful ones
hollow garden
Rail has better AoE by far. That's an easy win for me.
Rail Special is arguably the strongest special in the game assuming you can land it.
Actually it is the strongest special in the game if you can land it. It does more damage than any other special and affects a larger area than any other special.
amber canyon
Eh, flurry jab and now explosive spear are gas
In fact, Id even argue that Explosive spear might be the best build right now
Mainly because its basically Rail special
But more damage
And faster
hollow garden
My problem with the spear is how stationary it makes you when using it.
amber canyon
Waaaay faster
visual laurel
the amount of time it takes to get off a power shot on bow makes it really hard to use in the newly buffed hades fight ;; i tried doing a shotgun build with twin shot and buffed power shot + some chaos boosts and it did not go well
amber canyon
Eh, the explosive launcher freezes you as much as rail special does
south lagoonBOT
Thanks for reporting a game freeze! The most common solution to this issue can be found in #hades-tech-fixes-old
amber canyon
Son of a
hollow garden
Lmao
amber canyon
I love you proxy but god dammit
flat saddle
lol
amber canyon
Anyway
Spear special is basically like bow now
Except better
And worse
Depends on the situation
Its however above all else reliable
hollow garden
The difference is rail special can be upgraded with triple bomb or invigorating blast. All of which are insane upgrades.
The spear, the upgrade is the explosion.
amber canyon
Consider that you get 3 spears in the time you reload the triple bomb
Consider that each spear does 10 more base damage
hollow garden
Triple Bomb takes no longer to reload than normal bomb and I'm confused on why everyone thinks it does.
amber canyon
I know it doesnt, but the normal bomb takes a while to reload
hollow garden
The cooldown is "when the last bomb hits"
It's not technically a reload cause it's timed after the last bomb to hit.
And the rail is pretty slow to move and fire with but reloading while dashing really helps. And the advantage is your primary attack is long range, which means you're standing still but you're not standing still next to an enemy like you are with the spear.
amber canyon
Well with the special youre not standing still either
I agree that the spin is risky
Well, not next to an enemy I mean
cunning needle
and you can be firing with your main attack while the special recharges
amber canyon
Thats true,spear cant do that
hollow garden
I do think the rail and spear need buffs that allow you to be more mobile with them, like removing the animation on the special.
I mean ironically that's how you play rail
Drop a special on a group of enemies, and use your primary to keep the enemies stuck inside the blast
The primary doesn't stun but it does apply this weird stutter/slow to enemies.
Which you can use to keep enemies contained in the special zone.
digital crag
if spear special had some kind of pinning/stun effect it'd be good
hollow garden
I think if the rail dash attack launched like a flurry of bullets that staggered enemies it would be amazing.
Maybe like little mini rockets :p
amber canyon
Id go for a flamethrow cone attack
Mainly because every time the rail gets some kind of additional use, you have to imagine Hestia using it
And I am 1000% on board with flamethrower-using Hestia
simple cave
The most harmless of all the gods armed with a flamethrower and a maniacal smile
I like it
amber canyon
Im not sure I would call the goddess of gun "harmless" exactly
But she is the kindest goddess
charred shale
anyone beat hades?
digital crag
gotta protect the hearth from 30-50 wild boars
amber canyon
So the point stands
digital crag
beat hades? sounds fake
amber canyon
Note: the boars are all there because of Zeus
Because of course Zeus is responsible
charred shale
so none yet then haha gotcha
flat saddle
people have beaten him but not on anywhere close to 120 heat as far as i'm aware
I got 70, I think I saw some others do a bit higher maybe, but 120 seems unreasonable right now without a lot of practise and solid rng
wintry belfry
He deals 160 damage without damage multipliers, how it's supposed to be killed on 120 heat lol
flat saddle
don't get hit
even theseus on 120 would one-shot you if you took the damage multipliers
or close at least lol
wintry belfry
Nice advice lol
flat saddle
I don't think it would be possible to use frenzy instead of the damage multipliers for hades as it'd make things too fast to dodge - so it'd be a matter of taking 500% extra damage and dodging everything
wintry belfry
Bullet-hell games usually have hit-based HP (you survive X hits instead of you have X hp and various dmg) so you don't get stupidly one shot
I would prefer this in hades honestly
calm geyser
You'd probably need to boost Zag's speed if you want to do it that way. Or take a call that grants invulnerability like Ares' or Athena's do. But then you'd be sacrificing damage to burst him down with...
flat saddle
can just play perfectly with bull rush and the shield I think? everything is blockable mostly
but I don't see 120 being done on any other weapon any time soon
wintry belfry
The problem is the game becomes free-winable with invulnerability stuff
And yeah, shield too
calm geyser
Shield does seem like the best against him.
wintry belfry
Also, what happened to ultimates? They seem to be unuseable unless you get full mana
digital crag
yes
calm geyser
Hmm...
flat saddle
unusable as in uncastable or useless?
flat saddle
agreed
digital crag
ares is probably the least useful small charge
with athena and poseidon you could use a well timed charge to tank an attack
zeus dio and artemis are just free burst damage
calm geyser
Athena's is still useful at low charge for sure.
Especially when you have a boon that increases gauge when hit.
But I see your point. The durations a bit too low.
wintry belfry
Also I expect ultimate to be extended when I use it twice with 2 charges
Now it uses 1 charge (but with 2 sounds) and spends like 1.1 charge so I can't use 2nd one right after it
This is so weird
calm geyser
Okay yeah, that's a bit off.
amber canyon
I mean, the funny thing is
When the final boss oneshots you without heat
Heat doesnt really make him harder
calm geyser
That's...a fair point. It makes reaching him more painful though.
amber canyon
Yep
But thats what makes heat fun
I say after I havent run with more than 25 heat in months because I didnt have time to get good at Hades again
calm geyser
😂
sinful peak
I thought the intention of calls was to make them useful during shorter rooms where you don’t even get to fill your gauge
Why are people complaining about additional utility?
wintry belfry
I did beat the game only on 60 heat but that was a previous patch. There is no problems to reach him at 60 heat (I did it yesterday) but I couldn't kill him - more hp, less boons, especially less good boons, less mirror upgrades etc
@sinful peak I described the problem above
wintry belfry
I take less damage when I don't care about gauge rather than rely on it
even athena's one
amber canyon
Damage-wise its not really worth using them early
And as an "oh blood and darkness" button dash is just better
sinful peak
It’s literally free though, the only downside is you clicking one additional button
Or do calls actually stop you for a bit?
I was pretty sure calling didn’t interrupt my rhythm otherwise in my last run
wintry belfry
- Press call twice to get 2x0.5s (1s) of invulnerability from athena
- It made 2 sounds like it's fine
- Gonna hit the boss
- It suddenly ends because it spent only 1 charge
- Got 160hp hit
- Panically pressing call one more time
- It does not work because for some reason the 2nd charge is not full
- Lol u died
That's what I experience so far
digital crag
Counterpoint to "just dash away": flame wheels and asterius
quartz meadow
(I am very pleased to find that if I search the word "Camus" I get several people who made the same read of a happy Sisyphus that I did.)
atomic forge
Asterius is very easy to lure into a wall.
(if you don't play with Whipped Frenzy)
Keep your eyes on him, when he starts scuffing his foot against the ground, pick your nearest wall. Try to get him to run at an angle towards you, and dodge along the wall towards him when he's about a body length away. He turns pretty sharply so it takes a few tries to figure out the exact distance, but once you have it down it's almost foolproof.
I will try to get footage of that tonight and explain it so you have a visual reference.
lyric pine
i usually dash at him instead of to the side
lyric pine
grats
lyric pine
I've got him once with a shield and twice with the bow
before the minipatch
been doing 60 heat ever since the minipatch so i rarely make it to him now
still sigil
bull rush makes the fight a joke
coarse kestrel
Made an old man kneel for the first time.
Shield run with Athena's blessing on attack just meant I had to charge over and over
...Oh my Gods, okay game
lyric pine
how'd you find the second state?
coarse kestrel
With the shield, it was actually a little easier than the first
Most of it was beam spam so I just had to hold it at an angle and everything was fine
lyric pine
the shield can block the beams?
coarse kestrel
...That said, I probably would've gotten sent back to the Underworld if I didn't have the shield
Yeah.
lyric pine
Good to know
coarse kestrel
You need to be particular about it, but you can block the beams
lyric pine
One things that does a real number on him is getting a good Ares cast, with tracking and the Ares Legendary
That will stack up quite a bit of damage quite quickly, and since it doesnt get stuck in enemies, you can use it pretty often
hollow garden
Hunting Blades and Vicious Cycle are typically free runs
coarse kestrel
God, I was so angry when I got to phase 2 the first time
I was on a sword run and needed to get up close...but I also burned through my defiances and he just BEAAAAAM
hollow garden
Getting them both together usually means your run is gonna be in the bag, assuming you can dodge
hollow garden
because you throw em out and forget about them while you focus on dodging, then rinse repeat
yeah that's the only issue with em
lyric pine
I mean when I get it I still attack since that's extra damage, but thats a fair point
hollow garden
you need a minimum of 4 ares boons and 1 artemis boon to land that (Slicing Shot, Crit Ability, Hunting Blades, Blade Rift modifier, Legendary)
lyric pine
wasnt aware of the requirements, thanks for the info
tbh its one of my favourite casts, only bad thing about it is that you cannot get it stuck in someone for bonus damage
wintry belfry
Did 5 runs on 60 heat, all died from hades lol
coarse kestrel
I'm just impressed you made it that far! Game's hard.
wintry belfry
It's too easy with a shield (but barely playable with other weapons)
Next patch: shield removed from the game
digital crag
oh no
wintry belfry
By the way, in the previous patch sword special + athena boon was kinda op
Did they change it somehow?
digital crag
well nova radius is smaller now
hollow garden
Radius is smaller which really hurts you against flame wheels lol
wintry belfry
There are a lot of way to deal with flame wheels
digital crag
sounds you hear right before you die:
ᵐᵉᵒʷ
wintry belfry
E.g. hermes +movespeed buffs or poseidon casts
hollow garden
Deflect Dash is also a godsend
wintry belfry
By the way, +100% movespeed after dash is very good
Sometimes I sudennly went into the troubles with this buff but overall it's cool
frank glade
"EvEn If YoU bEaT mE yOu Ll' JuSt DiE aFtEr YoU cRoSs ThAt ThReShOlD"
Why do you people hate the fourth wall
Bloody hell Hades is brutal now
Barely survived half the first phase
onyx spoke
it's not quite a fourth wall break
frank glade
Yeah, it's more leaning into it I suppose
onyx spoke
zagreus dying is in-universe, and all his deaths after killing Hades are either from being dumb (||stepping on a rake||) or the Storyteller's unreliability (||let's just assume Hades absolutely clobbered him||)
dense fox
I think it's less unreliability and more "bugger i have'nt written this part yet, let's come up with a excuse"
blissful ermine
ARRRGGGGG Hades is SO FRICKING HARD!!!!!! I lost SIX DD's in the first phase alone and only got in 1 hit in the second phase before dying!! Anyone else think he is just....unfairly difficult?!!?!?! And I really don't want to say anything bad at all towards SG, not my intention at all, but still--he's kind of impossibly difficult?!!? There is so much going on! And if you Call when anyone is invulnerable, you waste it! I wish that wasn't so! I feel so frustrated and hopeless!
I wouldn't call him a dumb character, it's comedy!! 😄
lapis prawn
Anyone else notice it’s winter on the surface? Which means Persephone isn’t on the surface
solar pilot
yeah I was wondering about that chow
frozen jolt
well personally i think it just means shes not with her mother
"if there is a place i belong in this world, it must be somewhere between heaven and hell"
so obviously shes not at the house, or in the underworld at all, because that would make the entire game pointless and would just feel bad
hollow garden
I think a lot of people think the current version of Hades is overtuned. (See #hades-feedback , that same duplicate feedback has appeared at least 5 times in the past couple days)
frozen jolt
but not in olympus either, because snow
hollow garden
Seeing this amount of pushback on his previous buffs, I'd honestly be very surprised if he wasn't nerfed in the nearby future.
atomic forge
I remember Hades asking you to tell Persephone that Cerberus is doing well, IF you find her.
So she's not in the Underworld, unless I'm hallucinating that conversation.
serene furnace
That or hades is playing mind games
atomic forge
So that conversation happened?
serene furnace
I don’t remember it happening (it’s been a while)
But if he says it after you beat him, well we’re gonna find out the hard way then
cunning needle
does anyone know where i might be able to find a collection of voicelines from the different characters? specifically megaera because her voice is a balm on my soul
atomic forge
Than just crit a Marked enemy for 29997. Wow.
hollow garden
ok uhm... what
oh i read than as that
and i was very concerned
than boi just does that
atomic forge
"King Theseus has fallen to the likes of you?"
"He's all talk."
hollow garden
i mean he kind of is lol
atomic forge
I think this is already my favorite game of all time.
He's not.
He's pretty good.
I remember getting mollywopped a lot before I figured him out.
atomic forge
Nah, Zag isn't scrawny.
hollow garden
nah yeah fair, he's just short and small compared to basically every other character lol
atomic forge
He IS losing to the God of Talking Back to Hades.
hollow garden
literally the god of edgy teen. he smack talks and talks about death a lot
what else could you want out of your perfect edgy teen
atomic forge
But, Zag actually deals with death.
hollow garden
im not saying its bad, i love it
i do think its mildly amusing that out of hades' 3 kids, 1 is an edgy death god, 1 is an emo death god, and 1 just wants to go to bed
atomic forge
Thanatos and Hypnos aren't Hades' sons, they're Nyx's.
hollow garden
oh right, for some reason I thought they were both Hades' and Nyx's, that's a brain stop moment right there
dense fox
Was watching some gameplay, Hades does say "if you find her tell her Cerb is doing well" after the first time you beat him
Zag in a to me surprisingly assholish ways goes "I don't owe telling her anything from you, but answer my question a di might consider it"
I mean, it woulden't hurt to do like one thing even if dad's a asshat
atomic forge
Hades is refusing to tell him where his mother is, and every time Zag tries to find out via leaving he has him murdered.
dense fox
I won't deny that hades is a asshat and deserves everything he gets. But, well, at that point zag's won. He's beat hades. He's OUT. Would it hurt to show a bit of pity for the man who, even if he's a ass, is basicaly locked in a job he hates with noone he loves?
lyric pine
^
Someone has to be the bad guy, doesn't mean they deserve to be treated as if they enjoy it
Like, look at what the three big doods ended up ruling
Zeus got heaven or something
Poseidon got the seas
and Hades got endless paperwork in hell
now, call me crazy, but i get the sneaking suspicion that one of those is a hell of a lot more work than the others
atomic forge
Hades has been verbally and possibly physically abusive to Zagreus his entire life.
Even before he found out that he'd been LIED to his entire life.
lyric pine
Never claimed he should win the dad of the year award
atomic forge
No, these aren't "He's not great."
dense fox
The thing is it's easily sovable too with just a bit of a line change as i posted in feedback. Just have zag say something like "(hesitates a second)... sure. I can do that. But answer me a question first."
atomic forge
These are "Zag doesn't owe him anything" tier.
Every single interaction Hades is being a complete and utter cad.
dense fox
You are right. Zag does not owe Hades jack. But it's still a jerkisih thing to say when he's beat on the ground and no longer a threat.
lyric pine
^
digital crag
h
dense fox
I am at no point saying Zag owes Hades anything. I'm thinking more along the lines of "Zag sees Hades beat on the ground, actualy asking for something, and feels perhaps a pang of pity for the guy who got shafted into a job he hates and lost the only conforts he had"
lyric pine
I mean he still has Cerebus, but beyond that..
digital crag
he may very well feel the pity but it's seriously really conflicting to feel pity for your abuser
dense fox
Fair point. I just think it's kinda out of character for zag, the guy whose been fairly nice to everyone up to this point to basicaly extort hades for a answer
atomic forge
Hades has been abusive his entire multiple-century-spanning life.
digital crag
he's actually standing up for himself for the first time it's character development
atomic forge
He has no reason to be kind to Hades, ever.
dense fox
The whole "escape from hell" thing isn't standing up to hades?
digital crag
i mean the game taken as a whole but even within the game, before the boss fight he's just indirectly snarky with hades
this is the most direct confrontation
lyric pine
is it even indirect snark? the two seem to be constantly having an eternal snarkoff
dense fox
There's snarky, there's being legit mad at a abuser, then there's being a asshat. I feel like going "I won't unless you answer my question and even then maybe not"... in the context it feels more like the third thing to me then the second.
atomic forge
Dude, abuse is not something people come back from.
You're asking a LOT from Zagreus in-context.
digital crag
the context is.... being withheld knowledge about his mother
atomic forge
The lifetime of verbal and physical abuse, too.
We know that Hades has been awful to him his entire life.
hollow garden
he doesnt really have a reason to be kind to hades. I will admit it did surprise me a bit with how combative zagreus was in that particular response. Felt a tad bit out of character, at least in my opinion. Zagreus in every response to Hades uses snark and sarcasm. Outrage felt incredibly jarring. His outrage is definitely justified, but I think the specific request Hades had, the outrage seems... idk... a bit strange.
digital crag
also like, hades and persephone had an active breaking up process
dense fox
Ok, then if we are going for the second, have him call him out of it then! have him say "You are asking me to do something after all the time's ive been abused by you in your home? I don't owe you anything! But answer my question and i'll do it." It's a better explanation then "I don't owe you anything but i MIGHT if you do this"
atomic forge
He DOES.
We know that Hades has been abusive, he doesn't need to spell it out again in that moment.
He says he doesn't owe Hades anything, which is true.
dense fox
context of the line is different in the latter bit. He's saying "Answer me and i'll do it" rathert then "answer me and i MIGHT do it." it's all the difference
digital crag
it's pretty immature to ask your child to talk to your ex-wife when you won't do it yourself
atomic forge
He's confused that his tormentor suddenly wants something from him.
lyric pine
based on the conversation, i doubt hades actually knows where she is ratty
digital crag
oh my god i'm ratty..........blessed
it's a huge unfair burden for divorced parents to place their relationship responsibilities on their kid
cosmic crescent
I feel like some people are a little bit too deep into talking down on Hades.
Calling him a "tormentor", now that is something I haven't seen in here yet.
atomic forge
Please do not downplay abuse, especially over an extended period of time.
dense fox
I'm not saying any of it is fair, or right, or deserved, or anything. I just kinda think zag is the sort of person who would not deny a simple request like that, even if it came from some like hades who made him suffer. he's better then that, better then hades.
cosmic crescent
I am not downplaying abuse, you are just blowing it way out of proportion.
First of all, you only have eyes for the effect, not for the cause which is equally as important.
Second of all, these guys are gods. None of your mortal human rules have to apply to them they do to us.
atomic forge
I'm done.
cosmic crescent
Second of all, we have plenty "abusive father figures" in game and pop culture
dense fox
guys, calm down
cosmic crescent
why is Hades the one getting so much flag here? He is far away from being the worst.
atomic forge
Night, everyone.
lyric pine
night
digital crag
bye
dense fox
bye
dense fox
...I honestly did not expect this to become a whole discussion
cosmic crescent
It usually ends up being pretty heated everytime I say that people blow that "abusive father bit" out of proportion. I could start an entire discussion on the implications of that, but that would be a topic for a whole other discord.
lyric pine
i mean it was shifting from a debate to an argument, to be technical, but yeah this went on for longer than I thought
probably a good idea it ended as well, don't need arguments over fictional characters
cosmic crescent
That too.
On another note, the voice lines the developers added kinda hint at Hades really not being at his strongest right now.
digital crag
okay let me put it this way, 'forgive your abusive dad' is the far more prevalent narrative in fiction by like. a lot. it's just rare to see a narrative that says sometimes it's better to cut ties and have boundaries
cosmic crescent
There is value to be had in both
lyric pine
that sounds familiar @cosmic crescent but I can't remember exactly where I heard it from
cosmic crescent
And sometimes, they can even go hand in hand
What people fail to realize is that the world is not painted in black or white.
Nothing is just good or evil
and one mans good deed is another peoples bad outcome.
And the other way around.
dense fox
I'm by no means suggesting forgiveness lol. Hades is a jerk. I'm more seeing it as "They don't like each other, will never like each other, but zag is just a better person then hades and it's a simple enough request"
cosmic crescent
Depending on where the story takes this, I can see that SSG can get the game to a point where they will make you eat those words.
dense fox
Oh, I can think of at LEAST one way this backfires on me#
cosmic crescent
I can think of plenty.
And, to get back to the abusive father bit
People blissfully ignore that Persephone left
Man and Babyboy
digital crag
lol i'm not
lyric pine
as far as we are aware
cosmic crescent
I get that she is a nature goddess, but leaving your kid to start a small garden somewhere?
lyric pine
at the moment we can only see part of the story, so its probably not the best idea to judge people we literally have not even seen
cosmic crescent
ABSOLUITELY!
See, that Syrus guy get's it!
Give the game and the story the opportunity to fully unfold.
And try to see the bigger picture in everything that is occuringv
lyric pine
We know she left, but we don't know why. Whether a garden has anything to do with it (and whether you gathered that from voice lines ive yet to hear or the original mythology) is yet to be determined
cosmic crescent
Also, I will take a shower now and buy birthday presents afterwards!
Cheers, mates
dense fox
question: did the game at one point say something like "Pershephone was allowed to leave if she forgot she was there" or am i getting that confused with myth? Becuase if so, that one request from hades dsuddenly looks a lot more jerkish
cosmic crescent
Okay, I take time for that one.
The game just tells us that she left a note saying "Underworld sucks, I leave and get myself a garden in the human world. Also, screw Olympus too. Love Persephone. Say hey to Cerberus"
If we go by actual lore, that kinda adds up. On one hand, Persephone really wasn't that fond of living in the underwoirld, she is a nature goddess after all. On the other hand, her being in the underworld caused winter in the human world, killing humans.
lunar kiln
Farm girl persephone
cosmic crescent
Another bit to note is that Persephone apparently grew to care about humans and their struggles a great deal while governing the underworld with Hades
lyric pine
I thought Zag was a demigod, meaning Persephone had to be human
cosmic crescent
and grew a distaste for the Olympians who just frolic in their splendor on Olympus
Persephone is a goddess.
Daughter of...I believe Zeus and Demeter?
Let me chec
cosmic crescent
In greek mythology
dense fox
Because then it'd be like:
Hades: Can you tell her i'm looking after cerb
Zag: sure
Finds mom
zag: dad says cerb is doing well?
Persephone: Oh bugger (poofs to underword
Zag: The heck
Hades: JUST AS PLANNED
lyric pine
The game is certainly taking inspiration from the mythology, but I doubt its following it to the letter, so thats something to keep in mind
cosmic crescent
I mean, yes and no.
The fact that it is snowing while you fight Hades implies that whatever Persephone is doing
it is not managing the seasons properly.
lunar kiln
Ok but imagine being persephone's VA and being brought over to record like 3 lines of dialogue in 2018 and only coming back sometime in 2020 when the plot is added
cosmic crescent
(there is also another subplot to the story where Persephone ate a pom seed in Hades which lead to her being unable to ever completly leave the underworld)
lyric pine
Assuming she is a goddess of nature and her decisions are affecting the weather in the mortal realm, which we have no canon confirmation on either way
cosmic crescent
Given how Poms are a big part of the game as well, there may be some tie ins between ingame and mythology lore
We have no confirmation, but I think that the snowfall being there is a good hint.
lyric pine
It certainly could be a hint, or a reference to the original mythology regarding her, or maybe even a coincidence that made for a more dramatic scene
the problem is we have no way of knowing
not yet at least
dense fox
Am I the only one who thinks the final battle with hades is not the true end of the game? I know some things are gonna be added in 1.0, but finding his mother in the surface seems to a hell of a loose end to cover in just like a curtscen or two
cosmic crescent
It isn't the ending without a doubt.
cosmic crescent
I say that there will be at least one more Biome.
lyric pine
I mean i doubt Persephone is just hanging right around the corner from the Temple of Styx, so it makes sense to make a biome out of the mortal realm
dense fox
I think that after hades there's kinda going to be a big game changer as it were. Don't know what. Maybe zag gets caught up in the war and decides to help by fighting out and clearing the underworld, maybe it's the gods are jerks and he wants to teach them a lesson after they kill him, maybe it's his mom went crazy and is trying to kill the word
dense fox
My point is, big game changer coming after hades
lyric pine
for sure
cosmic crescent
Hades by itself was a big changer. He was the first lore-relevant boss we faced.
dense fox
also explains why there is very few house talks after your victory
cosmic crescent
Furies, Hydra and Beefboy duo were basically just placeholders without any real relation to what Zagreus is doing
lyric pine
I put that down to narrator retconning or Hades outright banning any mention of the fight
dense fox
I mean canonically yeah, but also supergiant don't want to give all the post hades talks and spoilers away
dense fox
Like if there's a game changer they keeping down low untill release proper, it'd make sense to record stuff for after it, but not add it
cosmic crescent
I am getting close to the 75 Subscriber Mile Stone
and when I reach it, I will do a 75 themed run.
And that actually reminded me:
lyric pine
I mean that's a bit unrelated, but grats
cosmic crescent
What is going to happen if you take a fresh start and make it all the wwy to the end?
If you make it to the end of the game without ever learning that Persephone is your true mother?
dense fox
Like, we know they being careful about datamining and stuff because on guy tired it with zag's lore entry and got this pretty much:
||You should not be here trying to look at what the fates hold. there's stuff here but some of it is lies, so don't bother||
cosmic crescent
That must lead to an entirely different ending now, wouldn't it? Because Zagreus would never search for her in the first place
lyric pine
That, while technically being possible, is just as likely as winning the lottery, due to the sheer amount of luck and skill required to get the perfect boons and upgrades together
cosmic crescent
Baby you know I will do exactly that once the game is finished!