Killing Freeze doesn't have priority.
#h1-builds-and-combat
cunning urchin
turbid needle
put that on
long escarp
I don’t think Icy Flare needs to be great, but I think it shouldn’t be total crap
cunning urchin
Giving it priority would make it harder to get t3 boons and would be inconsistent with how priority works anywhere else.
Well, the issue with the Flares is they all do the same thing with different damage numbers.
turbid needle
looking through boons honestly she has a smaller pool than some gods
its just that her pool is trash
also two of the bad boons being T1
cunning urchin
Better Dash, better Cast, pommable t2, I think that would help a lot already.
cunning urchin
Minor damage buff to Call.
cunning urchin
No. 
cunning urchin
No.
She gets Chill and then more slow with Killing Freeze. That's plenty.
And Stubborn Roots for survivability.
Oh yeah, Frost Touch needs better base damage and/or pom scaling.
Right now it just dilutes your pom pool.
long escarp
Well, the issue with the Flares is they all do the same thing with different dam...
Right, and I think that should change. Icy Flare can become a trippy-flare-sized mist that constantly applies chill and deals medium damage, but also gives you your bloodstone back immediately. Something like that maybe
long escarp
Yeah same
turbid needle
could use some
cunning urchin
Yeah.
long escarp
If anything, Frozen Touch shouldn’t be pommable
cunning urchin
No it should just have halfway decent pom scaling so that poms aren't a complete waste.
It's fine if some pom targets aren't amazing.
But that thing must have the worst pom scaling in the game for something that procs so rarely.
cunning urchin
https://imgur.com/wlDNhts
That looks totally broken. 
granite lava
it's because it doesn't have a duplicate multiplier so it just doubles it
cunning urchin
Slow effect shouldn't increase with poms, just rarity tbh.
I think.
Or I guess if it increases with poms, it should be a very small increase.
Kind of like Bronze Skin poms.
granite lava
cunning urchin
Yeah, that's more sensible.
turbid needle
nice
cunning urchin
I guess Arctic Blast could start at +20 or something maybe?
You'd have to see if that doesn't end up being too strong.
I think the boon right now is very underrated for how much damage it actually does, so maybe 20 is too high. But you'd also want poms to feel meaningful.
granite lava
cunning urchin
I wouldn't want Ravenous Will to be pommable. That just dilutes the pom pool. It's fine as it is.
Arctic Blast poms at +32 are probably too strong. 
Or maybe it'd be fine, I dunno, you'd really have to do runs with it to test its potential.
Especially when considering her other buffs.
proven osprey
Artic blast would be neat when pommed
10 stacks of chill is not always easy to apply
I guess that's why it's not pommable
cunning urchin
That looks good.
granite lava
that's +20% on first pom instead of +40% (previous screenshot)
cunning urchin
It's really hard to gauge how strong it would be tbh.
granite lava
well you'll be free to test it
cunning urchin
I broke my forearm.
cunning urchin
@turbid needle will be happy to test it.
granite lava
alright so the last one that's not pommable is nourished soul
proven osprey
Nourished soul is fine as is
The problem is the fact you can't sell it
Which means getting it with LC4 is actually detrimental
A boon should always provide an advantage
granite lava
granite lava
Which means getting it with LC4 is actually detrimental
my mod already removes nourished soul if you have LC4
hmm
well the thing is, making it sellable also makes it pommable
cunning urchin
Making it pommable makes it worse ironically lol.
granite lava
ah well, I won't touch it then
alright so what else was there for demeter
I remember you guys talking about bad pom multipliers on some boons and something about increased call damage
well just ping me with what you want, I'm gonna go eat lunch
cunning urchin
"Bad pom scaling" is just due to the nature of % attack and special boons, but if her t2 boons are pommable, that's fine.
It's just that in vanilla right now, you can't really scale her damage meaningfully with poms.
long escarp
Ohhh another thing I wish was different is I feel like Guan Yu doesn’t need such a massive health detriment. -50% is just so unnecessarily atrocious
raw blade
mfw different channel
long escarp
We were talking about changes in this channel earlier, so I’m still building off that
raw blade
ah
cunning urchin
Glass canon builds are fun.
Special base damage can go back to 50. That nerf was unnecessary.
lone jetty
I’d be in to more damage overall here and there from Demeter, but I sorta feel like her place in this game is “get early clears.” She doesn’t even become available until after your first Dad fight and your average player is thinking “well I just got waxed how am I supposed to kill THAT” and then BLAM you meet Demeter. Decent damage! She slows things down! She gives you more health! Her legendary straight up kills things early! She’s a “First of many?” monster addition and she does it well
Not everything needs to be super for the much later endgame.
(But for real lemme purge Nourishing Soul on LC4 
)
cunning urchin
Her damage isn't decent. 
lone jetty
I mean… yeah it’s bad
long escarp
Special base damage can go back to 50. That nerf was unnecessary.
It got nerfed? Lmao why??
granite lava
alright I'm back
mild raft
I mean… yeah it’s bad
Excuse you
Someone hasn't heard of our lord and savior Killing Freeze
lone jetty
granite lava
so what else did you want to buff on demeter? @long escarp@cunning urchin
granite lava
Ohhh another thing I wish was different is I feel like Guan Yu doesn’t need such...
sure
long escarp
Glass canon builds are fun.
Sure but at least give me an upside then. If it has to have such absurdly abysmal health loss, could I at least have decent damage? Without Charged Skewer it’s insanely bad, and with Charged Skewer is still not great
long escarp
so what else did you want to buff on demeter? <@!738544446747967599><@!311477984...
Tbh I just had a few vague ideas
mild raft
Wait y'all were talking about pommable killing freeze?
granite lava
I'm pretty sure someone wanted better call damage
granite lava
Wait y'all were talking about pommable killing freeze?
yeah that's done
mild raft
Pommable killing freeze sounds incredibly strong
cunning urchin
It was the #1 spear tbh for most of Early Access. It was nerfed in the same patch that buffed the other spears a bit if I remember right.
cunning urchin
Pommable killing freeze sounds incredibly strong
Good.
granite lava
alright so base damage is 10, what would be a good value?
long escarp
It was the #1 spear tbh for most of Early Access. It was nerfed in the same patc...
Hmm. Was that just because the other spears were awful?
mild raft
Guan Yu is just strong
It's just harder to use
I'd rather buff the damage on Guan Yu than nerf the health loss
imo
cunning urchin
Spear was pretty bad, yeah. But so was bow. Like, the average aspect then was a lot weaker than the average aspect now.
long escarp
Alright. Honestly I think it should maybe just have built in Charged Skewer or at least built in Quick Spin
Or make the attack combo decent
mild raft
The regular attack combo would need to be quicker for it to be usable
long escarp
For sure
mild raft
I think you could just buff the base special damage for it to be better I don't think it needs built in charged skewer
long escarp
You could make it hit a bigger area and crank the damage like with Arthur
mild raft
Charged is already very good
long escarp
Charged is already very good
Nah it’s still kinda bad even with charged skewer imo
And it’s basically unplayable without charged skewer
Which makes it way too annoying to play
mild raft
That's a bit of an overstatement
You can definitely play Guan Yu without charged skewer
mild raft
Man I play at high heat
long escarp
Or in a speed context
I’m working on 40 heat Guan Yu. I had to go to school mid-run but I’ve got a promising one
The only issue is that without charged skewer it’s almost impossible to push the special damage past 200
So it’s just so abysmal against bosses
I mean, compare that to Hestia
mild raft
You really like that word abysmal
long escarp
It really captures how it feels to play Guan Yu without charged skewer
cunning urchin
so what else did you want to buff on demeter? <@!738544446747967599><@!311477984...
Buff Call base damage from 10 to 15~20. Probably closer to 15? The damage isn't high in vanilla, but the Call has actually excellent utility at high heat because of how quickly it applies 10 stacks of Chill to everything in its pretty big AOE. So you wouldn't wanna overbuff it. But a buff wouldn't make it broken.
mild raft
I still think you're understating the value of base Guan Yu
granite lava
note I can also change the interval between damage
long escarp
It really captures how it feels to play Guan Yu without charged skewer
Other words could me:
- Miserable
- Painful
- Extremely unpleasant
- Unenjoyable
- Disappointing
mild raft
Ok baby
granite lava
gonna look into that Uno
mild raft
or at least increase in radius faster
That feels like it would make the call easier to use imo
A lot of other calls are instant
Dio, Zeus, Athena, etc
Demeter you have to wait which kinda makes it whatever
mild raft
It feels pretty slow on startup
long escarp
I still think you're understating the value of base Guan Yu
I made it all the way to Hades without Charged Skewer on one 40 heat run. Was doing around 170 damage per special (which was pretty hard to get), and also means it would take exactly 200 specials to kill Hades. Needless to say I died in phase 1 
cunning urchin
0.25s interval is fine, too.
long escarp
I only made it that far because I had an epic attack boon + massive spin, so my spins were shredding enemies. But they were way too slow for Hades
cunning urchin
Just needs a bit more damage.
It's easy enough to Chill things in a pretty big AOE with it, the damage is just lackluster.
mild raft
I mean do we want to compare it to something like Dio or Zeus call?
cunning urchin
Those are pure damage.
mild raft
Right
cunning urchin
Demeter's Aid applies Chill.
cunning urchin
Zeus' Aid actually has a very small AOE. It has a decent attack radius, but the lightning bolt AOE is pretty small without High Voltage.
mild raft
I'm talking about the attack radius tho
cunning urchin
m not even sure Dionysus' Aid has AOE at all, definitely not much larger than lightning bolt AOE if it does.
Demeter's Aid has actually pretty big AOE.
mild raft
It's also over the course of 5 seconds compared to dio and zeus being over the course of 1.5 seconds
so they have more condensed damage
Demeter is more spread out damage but less dps in general
cunning urchin
But again, Demeter's Aid applies Chill.
mild raft
Sure but how much does that compensate for
I don't have any numbers on zeus call so I'm just gonna go off of dio call
dio inflicts 30dps per stack of hangover over the course of 1.5s in a range of "600" whatever that number means
cunning urchin
It doesn't need to match their DPS since Chill is that good. The only Call right now that's actually bad tbh is Ares' Aid. Like that one is really bad.
But buffing her damage a bit wouldn't make her Call broken, so I think it's fine to do that.
But you don't really need to do anything beyond that.
mild raft
Yea I just think it would be better if it was more instant
cunning urchin
I'd rather have Demeter's Aid than Zeus' Aid probably for EM4 at 50+ tbh.
mild raft
Interesting choice
I guess it depends on the weapon
I feel like most weapons have better ways to apply chill
cunning urchin
Anything that's not shield because shield don't care.
mild raft
I'd rather have Demeter special Zeus call on Rama than the other way around
I'd really warming up to demeter special Rama
it makes the timing for Triple shotguns to be much more lenient
cunning urchin
I mean I guess that works, too.
long escarp
I always liked Demeter special but I think I still prefer Zeus. Ares and Dio are also good
I’ve definitely been warming up to Ares
mild raft
I mean there's also Frost Strike on a lot of weapons that can work
long escarp
I thought it was bad but yeah Nyaa was right. It’s really good
long escarp
I mean there's also Frost Strike on a lot of weapons that can work
Idk I feel like most weapons don’t attack fast enough for it to be worth, and if they do, then Zeus or Dio is probably a better choice
cunning urchin
Point is that Demeter's Aid is already really good if you don't have good ways to apply Chill, and still not bad if you have good ways to apply Chill given that you have Arctic Blast... but it could use some more damage.
mild raft
It's just slower than most calls
cunning urchin
My mindset is generally if you could buff it without making it broken or making other options in the slot obsolete, it probably should be buffed. But the damage should still be below Zeus' Aid etc. for sure.
If you doubled the damage, it would do 400 damage in an AOE while Zeus' Aid does 420 damage in 7 hits... and since you often only get to do 1-2 calls in regular encounters, you'd end up having greater damage potential with Demeter's Aid, which doesn't seem right.
turbid needle
uh yeah I cant test this mod rn
cunning urchin
So like... 50% increase instead would put it at 300 damage in an AOE, which imo seems fair.
On bosses it would still do noticeably less damage than Zeus' Aid etc., but you'd still get the Chill, and for other encounters, you might get more damage from Demeter's Aid over time if you don't have high burst damage, but it wouldn't have the quick damage burst that Zeus' Aid does or as much damage over time in most cases as Dionysus' Aid.
lucid oar
Sea storm
long escarp
Damn that’s lame
lucid oar
It is pretty bad tho
cunning urchin
I actually think it's fine mainly because his other core boons are all so very good.
Kind of balances his pool.
long escarp
It could be 40% though
lucid oar
Yeah none of his other cores are bad
long escarp
Very few weapons want it knock enemies away with an attack
cunning urchin
And it's decent enough on some aspects. You can make it work.
long escarp
Really? Where
cunning urchin
Lucifer, evidently. Spear actually.
lucid oar
It's awful on Lucifer lol
granite lava
alright the quality is really poo poo but it's all I could get my hands
https://streamable.com/3xiugk
cunning urchin
You'd be surprised at how effective a Tempest Strike Guan Yu build can be.
long escarp
Well it’s definitely not good on Lucifer. Super soaker is a meme
lucid oar
Just a meme
granite lava
top is original expansion speed, bottom is double expansion speed
cunning urchin
It's not a meme, though. It's bad until you get Sea Storm, but it's really good when you get Sea Storm.
lucid oar
And then you need even more juice for it to match Zeus attack
cunning urchin
Kind of like how Crystal Clarity or Hunting Blades are bad until you get what you need.
long escarp
It’s still not really good though
granite lava
as a side note I didn't know the bot filtered poop as bad language, that's rather extreme
long escarp
Clearly it doesn’t
mild raft
Why is Poseidon attack so bad
They think that wall slams matter more than they actually do
wait you mean crap?
Man
granite lava
yup
long escarp
But it didn’t delete the message?
mild raft
It did you just didn't see it
cunning urchin
They think that wall slams matter more than they actually do
Nah, m pretty sure they're just fine with the Attack being bad to balance out how strong his Dash is and stuff.
mild raft
DIfferent message
granite lava
anyway what do you think of the video I showed?
cunning urchin
anyway what do you think of the video I showed?
m very sure they were talking about the lesser Call before, not the Greater Call.
mild raft
I am a fan
granite lava
both are affected
long escarp
Nah, m pretty sure they're just fine with the Attack being bad to balance out ho...
I don’t like that form of balancing. It just make the god feel imbalanced
mild raft
But yea I would like to see lesser call
granite lava
I just haven't put a way for codex menu to do lesser
mild raft
just to see it in general
long escarp
I don’t like that form of balancing. It just make the god feel imbalanced
Not too good or too bad, just imbalanced
granite lava
alright
cunning urchin
I just haven't put a way for codex menu to do lesser
Just give yourself Smoldering Air, too.
granite lava
what does it do again
long escarp
cunning urchin
Caps your god gauge at 25%.
mild raft
I am a fan
granite lava
alright so we give it double expansion speed, what else?
more base damage, lower damage interval?
mild raft
Nyaanyaa mentioned increasing it's damage a bit
just flat increase to base damage not changing the damage interval
cunning urchin
That looks too fast. Make it 50% more speed instead of 100% if you really want to increase the speed. It looks really off now.
Yeah, base damage from 10 to 15 would be a good start for testing, I think.
mild raft
idk it looks good to me
but having a view of what it looks like at 50% more speed could be helpful
cunning urchin
I don't think you appreciate enough that everything in that huge AOE takes damage.
mild raft
I just think the call should be more instant
I want less time from
pressing the button > dealing damage
cunning urchin
It's instant, though.
mild raft
It literally has to grow
cunning urchin
So? It grows to a huge AOE.
granite lava
150% expansion speed, 15 base damage, 0.25 damage interval
https://streamable.com/gkxf6w
cunning urchin
That looks better. I still think the expansion speed buff is completely unnecessary, though.
mild raft
Damage seems pretty good to me at least
granite lava
well it makes common aid stronger than vanilla heroic aid
cunning urchin
Good.
granite lava
another alternative is to lower the damage per hit but increase the number of hits
also makes that artemis 'everything can crit' boon more valuable
cunning urchin
Nah, that's fine. Would be a lot more difficult to balance with everything else because it changes the frame of reference too much.
And the rate at which Chill stacks is decent.
granite lava
alright
so anything else with demeter?
gonna make a recap of the changes so far rq
mild raft
The dash is still butts but I feel like that's more about how it's built rather than the numbers
It's just hard to aim it when it goes in the direction you're dashing
cunning urchin
Dash is already buffed to 3 hits.
mild raft
Oh I must have missed that
cunning urchin
That was the first thing.
granite lava
Frost Strike attack damage 40% > 50%
Frost Flourish special damage 60% > 80%
Mistral Dash number of hits 1 > 3
Killing Freeze can't be pommed > can be pommed
Arctic Blast can't be pommed > can be pommed
Demeter's Aid base damage 10 > 15
Demeter's Aid expansion speed 100% > 150%
you'll be able to tweek the values in the config
mild raft
Pommable killing freeze is a nut and a half
Is Mistral Dash keeping the same damage per hit as vanilla just with 3x the hits?
cunning urchin
so anything else with demeter?
Buff Cold Embrace bonus damage, buff Freezing Vortex... somehow, and unnerf Blizzard Shot from 20 Shard Damage back to 40 because that was fun and not that much more broken than other things in the game.
cunning urchin
I dunno, let's try 60% maybe? Right now, a lot of people would rather use base Crystal Beam than Cold Embrace, I think? So a substantial buff seems warranted.
topaz compass
anyone have any tips on how to beat the final boss w/ forced overtime on
cunning urchin
Are you aware that your dash has i-frames, but that you lose your i-frames when you press anything like Attack during your Dash?
That's probably the most important thing to know.
mild raft
Freezing Vortex shouldn't have a size decrease
cunning urchin
You'll need to i-frame a lot of his attacks. Generally, when he readies an attack, time your first dash to i-frame a thrust or skull by dashing through him or perpendicular to him, and then if you see that his attack is the spin attack, time your second dash to i-frame the spin.
mild raft
But it also needs more
cunning urchin
That looks good.
topaz compass
You'll need to i-frame a lot of his attacks. Generally, when he readies an attac...
i think i got the timing off bc he hits me every time i dash
cunning urchin
@topaz compass so that's a relatively simple tactic to avoid both the cast and thrust as well as the spin attack, but you'll need some practice to do that consistently.
topaz compass
which is probably bc he's faster on forced overtime
cunning urchin
You're doing empty dashes, right?
Not Dash-Strikes or anything.
Do you have Fated Persuasion yet?
granite lava
what do you want to do with freezing vortex?
cunning urchin
Probably increase the size rather than decrease it tbh.
granite lava
ight
topaz compass
You're doing empty dashes, right?
i do empty dashes yes
cunning urchin
So then it would be... applies Chill, increases size, but moves slower. I think that'd be decent.
topaz compass
and i do have fated persuasion i think
granite lava
bruh is this for real
they decrease size by a flat amount then display it as a percentage
cunning urchin
Alright. When you see Lord Hermes, make sure you reroll for Hyper Sprint or Greatest Reflex as your top priority. I'd say take rare+ Greatest Reflex over Hyper Sprint, but take any Hyper Sprint over a common Greatest Reflex. And if you can't get those, get Second Wind (you'll need a Call for that), Greater Evasion, or Greater Haste. Those boons will help you a lot with getting out of range or having more dashes etc. to avoid his attacks.
cunning urchin
m pretty sure they generally don't want code from the game files to be posted in the server.
granite lava
ah well
let's take preemptive measures then
for real tho it's the first time I see something like that
just weird
cunning urchin
Maybe the interaction with Black Metal was just easier that way or something. Pretty sure the designers are more concerned with things working in the game than how pretty the code looks, as long as the code is easy to work with for them.
cunning urchin
@topaz compass also use the Evergreen Acorn in the fight if you aren't doing that yet.
@granite lava have you seen Bruiser Snakestones at high heat in Nighty Night? m not afraid of anything anymore.
granite lava
I'm talking about the code yo
granite lava
there was never anything inside me to begin with
cunning urchin
That's Weak, yo.
cunning urchin
I'm talking about the code yo
You have a really Unhealty Fixation on the code, you know?
cunning urchin
I think that looks good. Dunno if it's good enough, but it's an improvement for sure.
It's no Hunting Blades, but now you might wanna pick it at all.
granite lava
don't really have a good way to show blizzard shot but it works
cunning urchin
Which to me is fine, it doesn't need to compete with Hunting Blades.
granite lava
cunning urchin
Yeah, Blizzard Shot damage to 40 is just an unnerf, so I know how strong it is anyway.
It was 40 damage originally in Early Access.
One of the most popular Cast builds at the time.
granite lava
so to recap once again
Frost Strike attack damage 40% > 50%
Frost Flourish special damage 60% > 80%
Mistral Dash number of hits 1 > 3
Killing Freeze can't be pommed > can be pommed
Arctic Blast can't be pommed > can be pommed
Ravenous Will can't be pommed > can be pommed
Demeter's Aid base damage 10 > 15
Demeter's Aid expansion speed 100% > 150%
Cold Embrace bonus beam damage 30% > 60%
Freezing Vortex size -15% > +15%
Blizzard Shot shard damage 20 > 40
forgot I fixed ravenous will in the previous recap
cunning urchin
The only things imo are that Frost Strike and Frost Flourish really don't need those damage buffs with all the other buffs she has now.
So... Ravenous Will can be pommed or can't be pommed?
granite lava
well others wanted to increase them so I'll leave it as an option, just not in the default config
it can now
errant narwhal
Hey, these kinds of in depth conversations about modding the game are better had in the modding server (pinned in #self-promotion :P)
granite lava
yeah I was surprised you let this go for so long alma lol
errant narwhal
I was asleep lol
granite lava
cunning urchin
Ah. Well we were discussing potential Lady Demeter buffs like we often are and it kinda developed into that because PonyWarrior was here lol.
granite lava
@long escarp @mild raft @cunning urchin we can continue in the modding server, if you haven't joined it the link is pinned in #self-promotion
queen cape
things you should be afraid of
I just have one question for you Pony. IsGameStateEligible?
polar python
Just remembered why I prefer Crush Shot to Phallanx Shot on a Poseidon sword build. If you miss, you get the cast back immediately. Chasing around the arena to pick up the errant crystals is a pain with Phallanx.
lucid oar
I think it's discussion about a mod
opaque hare
oh cool
cunning urchin
oh cool
Very punny.
We were brainstorming potential buffs for her, like we often are, and PonyWarrior decide to turn the ideas into a mod.
terse thistle
Does Zeus shield mainly benefits from Zeus and Poseidon? It’s one of the weapons on my soon to use list. I’m ready to try new things, and eris is gun beauty personified
lucid oar
Zeus special on aspect of Zeus is a great build yeah
Poseidon special, not so much but it can still work
terse thistle
What about regular attacks on Zeus shield? Which god synergize well?
rugged geyser
Does Zeus shield mainly benefits from Zeus and Poseidon? It’s one of the weapons...
Not posideon really
Cause they will take one hit and bounce away
Unless you just smack them against the wall over and over
terse thistle
Nah that’s what tidal dash is for
lucid oar
What about regular attacks on Zeus shield? Which god synergize well?
Aphro is solid for weak
terse thistle
Agreed. Aphro is underrated imo for single hit attacks
lucid oar
Most of the damage should be coming from the special though
So an attack boon isn't that necessary
valid prism
rugged geyser
You could use aphro attack to get smoldering air
terse thistle
I really need to keep a list of duo boons handy
rugged geyser
The game has one built in
valid prism
Those are my 2 pictures about how bad is Poseidon special on Zeus if you don't find Rupture
lucid oar
9 min Elysium
valid prism
AP2 gladly gave me 2 SD but no Rupture so...
One of my best upside down attempts probably
opaque hare
Those are my 2 pictures about how bad is Poseidon special on Zeus if you don't f...
it's still not that good with rapture, the special doesnt knock that much
valid prism
Perhaps but with rupture I would probably have ended Elysium in less than 9 min without throwing away 2 SD
sterile fiber
Sandwich enemies between yourself and a wall, then throw the shield towards them
ironically it's better on bosses since the knockback is less on them.
valid prism
Sandwich enemies between yourself and a wall, then throw the shield towards them
That's how it became a 9 min biome with FO2 warriors and big rooms
granite lava
@mighty ermine how would you buff hades spear?
mighty ermine
<@!164508146746785792> how would you buff hades spear?
Most changes I'd think of would involve buffs to spear in general rather than just hades spear specifically, but I do think some sort of buff to hades aspect's spin attacks themselves would be nice. Whether that's naturally higher base damage or punishing sweep actually affecting subsequent spins
granite lava
hum ok the sweep buff affecting subsequent spins I had someone else request
long escarp
Punishing affecting spins was my idea as well
mighty ermine
Punishing sweep's bonus to attack/special right now numbers-wise is fine in a vacuum but not enough when you consider spear's base kit
granite lava
yeah you
so increased sweep buff dmg/increased spear moveset dmg and the sweep affecting subsequent spins?
mighty ermine
Something like that yeah, or even faster spear moveset without the need for flurry jab etc.
Base special being usable without launcher lol
plain prairie
if u could (can u?) dash attack with the spin it would be better
mighty ermine
You can and it's very recommended
proven osprey
🦊
granite lava
how does that look?
@long escarp@mighty ermine
https://streamable.com/hvrxp5
plain prairie
does it cap @ 300
cunning urchin
I wrote a short guide for Guan Yu here. 
#h1-discussion message
granite lava
recap of the balance changes I've made so far
- means it's implemented but disabled by default
-- Demeter
Frost Strike attack damage 40% > 50% *
Frost Flourish special damage 60% > 80% *
Mistral Dash number of hits 1 > 3
Killing Freeze can't be pommed > can be pommed
Arctic Blast can't be pommed > can be pommed
Ravenous Will can't be pommed > can be pommed *
Demeter's Aid base damage 10 > 15
Demeter's Aid expansion speed 100% > 150%
-- Guan Yu
Combo Attack 1 damage 40 > 60
Combo Attack 2 damage 60 > 80
Combo Attack 3 damage 100 > 200
Dash Attack damage 30 > 50
Special damage 45 > 60
-- Shield
Zagreus Aspect doesn't increase Special damage > increases Special damage
-- Duo Boons
Cold Embrace bonus beam damage 30% > 60%
Freezing Vortex size -15% > +15%
Blizzard Shot shard damage 20 > 40
Parting Shot bonus valid for casts > global
Parting Shot bonus damage +35% > +60%
-- Nemesis and Poseidon swords
Combo Attacks startup time 100% > 50%
Combo Thrust Attack knockback 3000 > 0
Combo Slash disabled duration 5 frames > 10 frames
-- Hades Spear
Sweep Buff valid attacks = combo attacks, dash, throw > global
Base Sweep Buff 30 > 40 *
@long escarp
opaque hare
i've been playing guan yu lately, i pick chaos and push for special dmg or undamaged foes
then if you have some special stuff from dadelious you're good to go
the thing is you have to learn to play at a distance with the spear specially that one
another keepsake that i start with is demeter, and look for attack on artic blast which is easy to proc with the spin attack
stacking health is really not worth the trouble if you ask me, you get like 12 health per centaur heart
but if you really want to, then i recommend chaos again and push for health
idk if the health they gave is reduced
terse thistle
I like them Zeus shield, first run I tried… I won
patent frost
should i pick the athena + poseidon door or the weapon buff door
pls ping or mention
terse thistle
should i pick the athena + poseidon door or the weapon buff door
sorry if it's late but which weapon are you using
also... i think i kinda figured out nemesis a bit... and it's pretty dang good
patent frost
dw & i was using the stygian blade
terse thistle
Challenge of the gods are usually the better option, plus Athena is an easy challenge to beat
worn solar
hammers show up later anyways but its mostly about whether or not your build wants boons from those gods
terse thistle
And it varies with aspects too
surreal lava
Hey any tips for using the aspect of Gilgamesh?
Mine is heroic lvl idk if that matters
boreal prism
It has additional dashes, so one thing you can do is choose the highest damage dash, tidal dash, and just wallslam everyone
In that case you don't end up punching much but thats alright
iron locust
Welp
I've done almost everything
I've bested all weapon bounties, achieved one 32 heat clear with Eris, and done just about every bit of dialogue event
long escarp
Have you done every aspect at 32 (or even 40) heat?
iron locust
There's some personal benchmarks though
I'm trying to beat EM4 FO2 with all the weapons
As of right now, two remain, spear and fists
Going to attempt Zeus Shield 32, then maybe Rama
And also getting The Unseen Badge
That's going to take forever
lucid oar
Sub 10?
iron locust
Ooh, that
I... Hang on, lemme boot up the game and check my speeds
If I get bored enough I might attempt getting every possible Win Title
Mirrorless and Darkness Free I imagine would be the toughest
Because once I can confidently say I've done everything (at least, everything I think I have the slightest chance of achieving. Stuff like max heat seems downright impossible in my current state)
I'm going to start a new file with a Hades mod, the codex boon thing
Man I remembering being upset with that run
I know I could've beaten close to sub 11 if it weren't for Styx
long escarp
Because once I can confidently say I've done everything (at least, everything I ...
Max heat? As in 64 heat? Yeah that’s kinda impossible for everyone
worn solar
Is that a Rarity thing?
yeah chaos favor boons increase boon rarity
worn solar
oh
long escarp
I actually do not know what that means
iron locust
Wait
worn solar
maybe got two of em
worn solar
undone sundial
Hi question, does Thunder Flourish only apply once with blitz disk? Or can I use it to shock enemies a bunch of times?
hoary slate
Nah it's just a rare chaos boon.
hoary slate
Hi question, does Thunder Flourish only apply once with blitz disk? Or can I use...
Try it, it's good.
undone sundial
Try it, it's good.
Was just asking, just unlocked the infernal arms upgrades and wanted to use it. Just got the boon offered, wanted to know if it worked before I wasted an option.
Thanks for the help though. Okay, yes it does work. And it shreds enemy hp bars.
hoary slate
The only thing that doesn't trigger there all the time is the hammer that boost your next two attacks.
long escarp
Thanks for the help though. Okay, yes it does work. And it shreds enemy hp bars.
It does indeed
long escarp
Hammer 1:
- World Splitter
- Cruel Thrust
- Piercing Wave
I pick piercing because they all suck
Hammer 2: - World Splitter
- Cruel Thrust
- Cursed Slash
cunning urchin
How can you get a Level 2 Chaos boon if you cannot pom it
They just stack like that when you have two, yeah
cunning urchin
Nah it's just a rare chaos boon.
No.
cunning urchin
Hammer 1:
- World Splitter
- Cruel Thrust
- Piercing Wave
I pick piercing becaus...
Piercing Wave is good wdym.
hoary slate
👀
cunning urchin
Second best sword hammer after Double Edge.
long escarp
Huh? What does it even do?
The waves don’t get buffed by boons, nor do they even hit most of the time
I don’t understand
fervent elbow
that's still some damage
I thhink it's buffed by global damage % boons
30 damage, that's your dash strike base damage
long escarp
Still idk it feels like it barely does anything
iron locust
I think it just adds range for the Sword
Plus, it pierces enemies so it provides some crowd control
Not that I care though
Arthur spanks cannot really use it
Breaching Slash btw
long escarp
It literally feels like one of the worst hammers in the game
Second best hammer sounds absolutely insane
iron locust
Can't be worse than the Novas
long escarp
I think it’s probably is
Piercing wave does literally almost nothing in my experience
frail beacon
Hammer 1:
- World Splitter
- Cruel Thrust
- Piercing Wave
I pick piercing becaus...
world splitter is how I got 32 heat and fastest run so far, but my speed is meh anyway
those juicy 1700 damage crits
long escarp
World Splitter is a truly terrible hammer in my opinion. It can be fun though, not knocking it if you enjoy it
But I’d rather have almost anything else for a high heat run
Or speedrun
Personally
long escarp
those juicy 1700 damage crits
How are you turning 90 base damage into a 1700 damage crit? You’d need a 630% damage increase
cunning urchin
That's not unreasonable.
long escarp
It’s not impossible
I believe it
But I’m curious how many things they needed to have
Because when I say 630%, I mean in addition to the crit damage
frail beacon
attack bonuses, back attack bonuses are big ones
not sure how weakness damage bonus stacks with attack damage bonus
long escarp
That's not unreasonable.
It’s definitely not impossible and I’m not saying they’re lying, but it feels a little bit unreasonable. How are you gonna get 630% attack increase for sword?
long escarp
not sure how weakness damage bonus stacks with attack damage bonus
Additively
cunning urchin
Shadow Slash alone is already +200% lol.
frail beacon
well, I got world splitter and +200% back damage hammer
long escarp
You still need another 430%
You can get like 150% from Aphrodite
Then you need multiple epic chaos boons
fervent elbow
Family favorite, boiling blood, shadow presence
frail beacon
like 50% from stone and some from boons
long escarp
Right. Ok. So that’s like a ton of things. But yeah, I guess you can make it work if you get multiple chaos boons on specifically attack
long escarp
Hey Reid 
cunning urchin
Billowing Strength, Sweet Surrender, Battle Rage, Urge to Kill...
long escarp
shy solstice
Lmao
shy solstice
Hey Reid <a:elderwave:779134520757977110>
Good morning… your sleep schedule is ridiculous
long escarp
Oh yeah battle rage makes a difference
long escarp
Good morning… your sleep schedule is ridiculous
I’m just going to bed early waking up early
solar dawn
You really don't need much to hit 1700 backstab crits from 90 base
cunning urchin
Rush Delivery with multiplicative movement speed...
cunning urchin
Movement speed is.
shy solstice
Oh interesting
long escarp
That’s wild
frail beacon
huh, that'd mean if you are lucky with hermes boons, you could get a good damage boost from it
shy solstice
So an ignited Ichor with hyper sprint would give you 40% speed while hs is active?
long escarp
Seems like it
cunning urchin
Hyper Sprint is weird somehow. I think people are still figuring that one out.
frail beacon
so far it seems triple dash strike is the best varatha hammer, but I am yet to finish the prophecy after like 10 varatha runs
cunning urchin
But every other source of movement speed bonus is definitely multiplicative.
long escarp
so far it seems triple dash strike is the best varatha hammer, but I am yet to f...
The downside is pretty huge though. It’s definitely a good hammer
Exploding Launcher and Flurry Jab are probably the best hammers imo
shy solstice
Wish triple dash strike worked with extra dashes well
long escarp
Does it not?
Serrated Point feels way better and does more damage with extra dashes
The extra dashes kinda make up for the lost dash distance, at least a bit
shy solstice
From my memory it has some sort of cool down
frail beacon
From my memory it has some sort of cool down
the animation of the strike has to end before you can do anything
frail beacon
Exploding Launcher and Flurry Jab are probably the best hammers imo
exploding launcher could actually be good with guan, because its special works like a bow 🤔
in case I did not miss something
long escarp
exploding launcher could actually be good with guan, because its special works l...
You can’t get it with Guan Yu
Guan Yu kinda already has a built in exploding launcher
frail beacon
ah, makes sense
cunning urchin
Exploding Launcher that pierces, yeah.
frail beacon
well, as I am using achilles, it's not for me
long escarp
EL or Guan Yu?
frail beacon
EL
long escarp
Yeah fair
It’s a very good hammer though
For Achilles, you’re best off with Flurry Jab
cunning urchin
El Guan Yu?
long escarp
It’s arguably the best hammer in the game
frail beacon
For Achilles, you’re best off with Flurry Jab
hm, serrated point seems better IME
long escarp
If you’ve never tried flurry jab on Achilles, I highly suggest it
cunning urchin
It’s arguably the best hammer in the game
Flurry Slash? Yeah.
long escarp
hm, serrated point seems better IME
The downside of less dash distance is a lot bigger than you realize, and Flurry Jab literally 3-4x your damage output with arguably no downside
frail beacon
with flurry jab I was spending half of the time triggering rush
cunning urchin
Flurry Jab has way better DPS potential than Serrated Point. That's why it's the meta in speedruns.
cunning urchin
Like, competitive speedrunners will just reset until they get Flurry Jab in Tartarus because nothing else matches its DPS.
But Serrated Point is definitely still pretty strong.
long escarp
Yeah you literally need it for Achilles speedruns. Achilles speedruns is really just flurry jab speedruns
opaque hare
what are guan yu strats
cunning urchin
Quick Guan Yu guide I wrote. #h1-discussion message
frail beacon
huh, in my only Guan Yu run charged attack dealt higher DPS
proven osprey
The spin deals a lot of damage but really needs spin hammers to shine, especially quick spin
cunning urchin
One build I didn't mention there is Merciful End.
patent frost
Challenge of the gods are usually the better option, plus Athena is an easy chal...
ty
errant narwhal
i like zagreus aspect of the fists with it for some extra dodge chance and also its pretty fast
worldly fog
Or Zag aspect of Sword
cunning urchin
Um um... alma?
clever yoke
Relatively new player here, only 2 clears so far. What are some good builds involving Dionysus?
polar python
Talos fists with pommed hangover on the special is fun.
clever yoke
I can think of chiron rail or fists with this
cunning urchin
Yeah, those are good.
clever yoke
I'm leaning towards Demeter aspect but do I buff special or attack
cunning urchin
Attack.
clever yoke
what are those again? ares and aphro?
lucid oar
Artemis/aphro
cunning urchin
Ideal build with Drunken Strike on Demeter Aspect is probably hmm...
Drunken Strike
Deadly Flourish
Trippy Shot
Passion Dash
Zeus' Aid
With their Duo Boons and legendaries.
You're normally not gonna see all four of them in a run, but those are good combos.
lucid oar
And hyper sprint and heroic rush delivery of course
And pom blossom the whole way with every pom going into the attack
cunning urchin
Drunken Strike + Passion Dash is always good for Low Tolerance. Drunken Strike + Deadly Flourish can get you Splitting Headache. Drunken Strike + Trippy Shot unlocks his legendary... Trippy Shot + Zeus' Aid unlocks Scintillating Feast.. etc. etc.
Just all around good synergies there.
lone jetty
That is one of my all-time favorite builds and can confirm it is insanely effective
Oh yeah I have some vids of it actually. It’s from months ago so not the cleanest fist play but this had Splitting Headache and ruled https://m.imgur.com/a/Quex4OW
errant narwhal
Um um... alma?
me? i spent way more than 5 titan blood on sword aspects i never use 😔
like, 36, because i do use arthur
terse thistle
Relatively new player here, only 2 clears so far. What are some good builds invo...
dio is generally good with weapons that can stack the status quickly, for instance the fist regular attacks, the bow specials. decent with gun attacks. dio and demeter ice wine is one of my favs, most of his boons i generally enjoy along with the passive effects since they're really good early on
arthur is love arthur is life
terse thistle
I take back anything bad I ever said about nemesis. This weapon is insane
sterile fiber
also get Ares' revenge boon for Dio+Ares duo
terse thistle
Yep nemesis is just a faster Arthur with no life and def buff
runic plinth
frail beacon
yes, they are just crits
and you can get 100% crit chance on the mark, I suppose
also, in case you can get artemis + aphro duo... you are lucky
terse thistle
heart rend and watch those sweet damage
bronze echo
What’s a good mid heat Rama build?
bronze marten
What’s a good mid heat Rama build?
Aphro attack into Zeus or Dionysus special
Twin shot perfect shot point blank shot all amazing
bronze echo
Ah I’ll try that out thank you
long escarp
What’s a good mid heat Rama build?
Demeter and Ares are also great on the special
In addition to Zeus and Dio
stark lake
i'm giving it another go tomorrow
little quiver
anyone got a fun fist build for me?
dont have any aspects unlocked but 15 blood safed up
stark lake
anyone know some builds to make the game easier?
cunning urchin
anyone know some builds to make the game easier?
Those should be pretty good and well explained.
stark lake
https://youtu.be/bY42CJs159Q
thanks
thorn arch
Any way to not get burned out?
I have 100 hours in the game
have all the bonds except one that seems bugged(hermes)
I feel like I don't really know what builds to go for anymore
the game just got a little boring
worn solar
can do high heat
bronze marten
the game just got a little boring
Play another game for a while, the great thing about hades is that if you have a random 45 min you can do a run
Favors will show up eventually just gotta keep doing runs
worn solar
or like 20 or 30 minutes
bronze marten
However many minutes lol
jovial fulcrum
splitter i think?
flurry messes up your dash strikes
and cursed slash messes up your HP
Splitter makes your normal attacks slower, but i don't think it changes dash attacks?
honest wing
ok I took flurry actually
and I'm shredding through everything
just hit that heart rend + chaos dash strike + rush delivery power spike
gritty shuttle
Just realised I’ve completed 20+ runs and still don’t know what the best boons are- anyone have any suggestions?
boreal prism
depends on the weapon
on attacks that deal big slow damage you want aphrodite (or any god that gives %damage increase) and on attacks that deal fast small damage you want zeus (or any god that gives flat damage increase)
boreal prism
traditionally, use a god keepsake in the first biome, use a god keepsake or coin purse in the second biome, use coin purse or a boss keepsake in the third biome, and use a boss keepsake in the fourth biome
a boss keepsake is a keepsake that helps you beat bosses. the best one is (almost always) evergreen acorn
otherwise, you can run feather or butterfly for the whole run and have a great time
frail beacon
a boss keepsake is a keepsake that helps you beat bosses. the best one is (almos...
hm, I usually go with meg's keepsake
but it's bad actually I suppose
worn solar
like most stuff its probably additive damage
frail beacon
+50 to max HP can result in +125 effective HP, or even more, with 3 death defiance recharges🤔
worn solar
yeah. mostly use acorn though in high heat cuz hard labor
tooth with em4 can make sense though
lunar pulsar
I feel like I want a keepsake that helps in normal elysium rooms rather than the bossfight for higher heat runs
valid prism
Meg's keepsake is good if you have Stubborn Defiance and LC4 on your pact because once you're damaged enough you're low hp most of the time
frail beacon
I generally find stubborn defiance meh
lunar pulsar
death defiance is definitely better at low heats
worn solar
kinda hard to go without stubborn defiance on lc4 with other modifiers added in
id kinda recommend boss keepsakes in elysium and styx with stubborn rather than earring tho
frail beacon
yeah, that's when I thought it'd be good as one of the only ways to restore HP
worn solar
yep
also with athena you can stock up extra dds with stubborn
so you still build up a boss buffer
frail beacon
also with athena you can stock up extra dds with stubborn
eh, but it only restores current DD charge if you have lost it in the chamber?
worn solar
yeah but that pretty easy
just walk in some traps or let yourself get smacked during the last wave of a room
valid prism
Meg's keepsake makes sense if you know the game enough later with Heat: at "low heat", a lot of keepsakes are probably better like god's ones or defensive ones for bosses
frail beacon
actually now that I think about it, pom flower can be a good keepsake for asphodel
valid prism
More DPS with low hp is pointless if your dodging skill isn't on point
frail beacon
or wait, asphodel is short tho 🤔
worn solar
well if youre like speedrunning then yeah megs is great. its extra damage but otherwise aint worth it for actually tryna climb heats imo
also like that 40% is additive right
frail beacon
lol, I guess pom flower is good if you are lucky with a good boon in the first chamber
worn solar
havent tested it but i assume its additive
valid prism
Earring is actually not that used at low or high heat speedrun
Not at low heat because people can rush without thinking with acorn or have a better dmg bonus with Dad's keepsake
worn solar
wait then whats it good for
valid prism
It's good but only few people experimented it at high heat
worn solar
well you can have an olympian call with it
lunar pulsar
It is good for when you want the damage at high heat but have smoldering air
valid prism
At low heat it's meh because if you still have healing from mirror/fountains you not very likely to maintain yourself at 30% hp
worn solar
just use it with eris rail and up the zeus damage to over double
valid prism
At high heat it makes Asphodel or Elysium faster but you're more likely to die against bosses
worn solar
elysium rooms do become quite a pain with all them modifiers
valid prism
That's part of the charm
frail beacon
Not at low heat because people can rush without thinking with acorn or have a be...
but dad's keepsake is just kinda like a weaker athena call
untold vortex
the +100?% global damage buff is kinda big
frail beacon
earring is good with artemis or aphrodite calls tho I guess
turbid needle
earring really shines on the LC4 + SD strats otherwise its too awkward to be at that health treshhold
frail beacon
well... I am at that health threshold for most of the fight with Hades 😅
valid prism
You definitely don't want to keep earring for Hades fight unless it's a high speed matter
terse thistle
i like the black shawl for biome 4 since i like them backstabby
rugged geyser
i take well/dad call/ acorn
turbid needle
The best Athena+Ares Merciful End combo i've been able to build so far, was very fun, melted hades in 50s
(Not pictured is +2 dash, +20% attack speed, +crit dmg and cursed slash (lul))
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642525823277989947/888075929509838929/409341e94cdea4e7b8f6b371567a2e24.png
long escarp
Wrong channel?
terse thistle
What’s so good about dad call sigil again? I need some enlightenment again. Since it’s good for eris build and I just wanna know why.
solar dawn
It gives you +100% more global damage after you come out of invis, and while unseen
terse thistle
And ty now I need it
sterile fiber
Coming to think of it, that's a buffed version of Wind Walk from Warcraft 3, which is one of the most meta skills, at least from back when I watched competitive games
Gain invisibility and extra movement speed, first hit after that removes invis and crits
wanton garnet
Which spear aspect is easiest for a spear noob to use? Achilles or Hades?
terse thistle
Which spear aspect is easiest for a spear noob to use? Achilles or Hades?
Achilles 100%, go for flurry jab and have fun
wanton garnet
What's the other hammer?
candid belfry
triple can be fun
terse thistle
Merciful end works well enough on spear? Or I’m better off with fists?
lucid oar
It works well on any weapon that can dash strike quickly
It is the speedrunning meta on 2 of the spear aspects (Hades and Guan yu)
terse thistle
I couldn’t get merciful end this run but spear definitely would work well there. I like Achilles a lot
errant sparrow
Gilgamesh with support fire 
terse thistle
Still no merciful end but Demeter aspect slaps… I wanted to test out on hades… perhaps next run…
lone jetty
Yup
Ares attack > Athena special and dash > duo
I suppose if you don’t have dash you could use the pings from the hellfires to trigger the doom drop
turbid needle
whats the process for ME on lucifer
unless you have the hammer that makes lucifer attack charge faster i doubt it would be very good
prob better off using a normal rail for it
sterile fiber
got my Beo 32 with this, thanks
proven osprey
long escarp
for zag aspect preferably
Bull rush doesn’t get stronger from Zag shield’s bonus
That being said, I beat 40 heat with a charged shot Zag shield build
Charged Shot is (imo) a top 5 hammer in the game
Charged Shot Zag shield is pretty good
long escarp
unless you have the hammer that makes lucifer attack charge faster i doubt it wo...
Nah it’s alright. I’ve done it before
It’s worse than a normal Zeus Lucy build but like
It’s not awful
Btw when I say I’ve done I before I mean I’ve done it a lot
Like 8-10 times
turbid needle
Bull rush doesn’t get stronger from Zag shield’s bonus
yeah i know its just i only have zag and beowulf at lvl 5 lol
what boons with charged shot?
ares attack?
long escarp
Aphrodite attack for sure
Charged shot has very high damage
You want to do dash strike -> bull rush as your primary combo
turbid needle
do you think beowulfs bull rush is better than zags even if not using casts?
(i hate using casts it's awkward to me and i can't get used to it)
long escarp
If you’re not gonna cast, don’t use Beo
turbid needle
i just thought the +100% damage might be better
long escarp
It only gets that if you cast
long escarp
Beo is the best aspect in the game but if you don’t cast then it’s awful
turbid needle
im literally doing like 6 heat runs bc shield and spear are my lowest by a fair bit
i dislike them both
havent tried chaos shield yet though, maybe ill like that more
long escarp
long escarp
havent tried chaos shield yet though, maybe ill like that more
Chaos shield requires a bit more of an understanding of the mechanics of a bull rush
Shield is probably the best weapon in the game (very debatable but that’s what opinion) but it’s quite hard to learn how to use
Especially Zeus and Beowulf
long escarp
It’s hard
It’s insanely good though, if you know how to use it
Best RI3+ aspect in the game
turbid needle
RI3?
turbid needle
@long escarp i see what you mean with charged shot + heartbreak strike
very strong
basically a bow that can block lol
attack boosts like chaos don't work on charged shot do they
long escarp
They do
long escarp
If heartbreak strike does, than why wouldn’t chaos attack?
turbid needle
tbh i was thinking zag bonuses didnt work with it
but then i realised i was thinking about beowulf
i just had 6 chances to get huge catch and didnt get it... zzz
long escarp
tbh i was thinking zag bonuses didnt work with it
The reason Zag bonus doesn’t work with it is because it only applies to attack and dash strike
turbid needle
i just mean they both just say attack so its odd one works and another doesnt
long escarp
Because the Zag shield affect specifies dash strikes and doesn’t specify bull rush
The other attack boons just say attack, which applies to every attack you have
turbid needle
i understand the logic behind it
but the wording is a bit misleading is all
they both say attack damage, 1 just specifies dash strike damage as well
long escarp
Yeah that’s fair
turbid needle
without asking/looking at wiki you'd assume both or neither would work with rush
long escarp
No, I know that the attack boons will always apply to every attack
Hammers and aspects often only apply to exactly what they say they apply to. Boons are not weapon specific and therefore apply to everything under the umbrella of “attack”
terse thistle
zeus shield easy for me, literally pop the thunder special and let that disc fly around while smacking everything else
long escarp
It’s definitely not easy to play quickly at higher heat
But it’s incredibly strong if you’re good at it
Zeus is probably the highest skill aspect in the game imo
terse thistle
higher heat is a whole different league, for general casuals... i would say zeus shield is worth trying out. and demeter aspect is chef's kiss while i still haven't really figured out the potential
long escarp
Demeter is alright but it’s also fists so…
wanton garnet
So the best casts for Achilles aspect are either Ares or Demeter?
cunning urchin
Best Cast for what?
They're both very easy to get wins with when the builds come together, so they're definitely good picks for that.
wanton garnet
For DPS, since Achilles increases attack, special and cast damage after raging rush
lucid oar
Just attack and cast
cunning urchin
Well, for DPS you would ideally start Tidal Dash and reset for Flurry Jab, then pick up either Deadly Strike or Lightning Strike. And then Slicing Shot is ideal for Deadly Strike (for Hunting Blades) and Trippy Shot for Lightning Strike (for Scintillating Feast). And Phalanx Shot works very well with either of the two.
lone jetty
Lightning Phalanx on Achilles is monstrous
opaque hare
does bad news works with slicing shot?
proper furnace
Yeah
opaque hare
for all the hits?
proper furnace
Yup
opaque hare
sick
long escarp
Bad News is great with non-lodging casts. But infernal Stygian soul is not great with slicing shot
proper furnace
Why the sudden mention of infernal soul?
lone jetty
Bad News is bugged and gives 50% global damage to anything without a stone in it so it’s just dope on anything
lone jetty
Yeah it says just casts but it’s all damage
ionic crown
christ
long escarp
Oh I meant Stygian
long escarp
Bad News is bugged and gives 50% global damage to anything without a stone in it...
LMAO for real?
That’s hilarious
bronze marten
is heart rend worth it if my crit sources are pressure points and artemis call
artemis call kinda mids in rooms but v bosses its like, a free meg
or 3 megs v em4 lol
lucid oar
No
Heart rend is only really "worth it" on the crit aspects (zag bow and nemesis)
With deadly strike alone, it doesn't do much
long escarp
Bad News is bugged and gives 50% global damage to anything without a stone in it...
Why don’t speedruns or high heat runs go for that? That seems completely insane
lucid oar
With pressure points alone, it does very little
ionic crown
also artie’s call isn’t all that good until it’s greater call
ionic crown
Why don’t speedruns or high heat runs go for that? That seems completely insane
probably because fishing for legendaries for speed purposes isn’t a good idea
lucid oar
Why don’t speedruns or high heat runs go for that? That seems completely insane
Because it's equal to common RD and is very rare
long escarp
probably because fishing for legendaries for speed purposes isn’t a good idea
Eris looks for Splitting Bolt if it’s convenient. The real issue is that Hermès just has better speedrun boons I think
lucid oar
Since you basically never take plume or auto reload, it's not that good
I'd rather have second wind or greatest reflex
long escarp
Seems kinda worth it. Giving up 2 Hermès slots for 66% of an Eris boost but all the time? Sounds like a deal. Although extra dashes is still better, I’ll definitely take auto-reload over other bad Hermes boons from now on
lone jetty
It’s a high roll, also. Without the plume or nectar or yarn it’s like 1% chance for Hermes legendaries
lucid oar
I'd be really sad with my Hermes boon selection if the best boon was auto reload
long escarp
It’s a high roll, also. Without the plume or nectar or yarn it’s like 1% chance ...
Is it actually? Is that lower than normal?
lone jetty
Yeah, Hermes legendaries have a lower than usual chance
long escarp
That explains a bit. I don’t think they need to be reduced. You can already only see the god twice
long escarp
With god's pride it's 23%
wait is that how it works?? Oh my god that’s broken!
I thought it increased my existing odds by 20%
lone jetty
Yeah, it adds percent, not multiplies
long escarp
That’s why gods legacy does so much
I did a run with it recently and accidentally stumbled into 3 duos and a legendary
lone jetty
Iirc legendary or duos with regular gods are like a 10% chance so yeah Gods Legacy effectively doubles it
long escarp
Wait what’s the odds for an epic boon normally and what’s the odds for a rare boon? Like from a non-hermes god
lone jetty
Wanna say 5% for epic and 20% for rare. Not super sure
long escarp
Ohh wow so my odds are higher to get an epic boon than a rare one
Since I have Dark Foresight and God’s Pride
I feel like 1% for hermes legendary isn’t really fair
That’s so much lower than it needs to be
bronze marten
I feel like 1% for hermes legendary isn’t really fair
i finished the final prophecy, all legendaries from every god, this week on run 333 because it was my second time ever seeing bad news and taking it (first time, it was that or an epic RD i needed to win, which i took)
YMMV but yeah that one took me a long time
shy solstice
Are Stygian shards multiplicive?
lucid oar
Yes
long escarp
Are Stygian shards multiplicive?
Whatcha up to 
long escarp
It’s a high roll, also. Without the plume or nectar or yarn it’s like 1% chance ...
With plume, what does this % become?
terse thistle
I thought the plume only gives more dodge chance and speed.
Or am I thinking wrong plume?
rugged geyser
I have blizzard shot atm, what happens if I replace posideon cast with arty cast?
Will I keep blizzard shot effects ?
terse thistle
Probably not just from my guess
bronze marten
Nope
long escarp
No
long escarp
With plume, what does this % become?
If anyone knows, I’m very interested
cunning urchin
Iirc legendary or duos with regular gods are like a 10% chance so yeah Gods Lega...
12% per slot that can roll duo/legendary. 10% when it's something like a miniboss reward.
rugged geyser
Soul or fiery on Rama?
I’m thinking fiery won’t work because you want to special first
Which has such low damage
bronze marten
depends if you open with special spam or an attack in a room
long escarp
Assuming you’re playing optimally ofc
cunning urchin
Fiery Presence can speed up kills in especially Tartarus quite a bit.
And actually just generally. Tag 5 enemies, attack the 6th that you haven't hit yet...
Things like that.
long escarp
Using your special almost completely makes up for not having fiery, and allows you to stack with shadow
So much better
long escarp
And actually just generally. Tag 5 enemies, attack the 6th that you haven't hit ...
But I guess this makes some sense
Also, Rama incidentally backstabs a lot
Due to dashing through enemies as they attack
cunning urchin
Both are decent, anyway. Take whichever you prefer.
long escarp
I end up backstabbing most of the time with Rama
cunning urchin
Cool.
long escarp
What I’m saying is it’s not hard. It should happen most of the time honestly
And by tagging the enemy and backstabbing, you’ll do much more damage than you would with Fiery
cunning urchin
You're also guaranteed to first-hit any enemy that you attack once.
Assuming you don't miss.
turbid needle
if you gotta play with shared suffering shadow better
lunar pulsar
shadow presence is a lot better when you are running damage control
long escarp
But if you tag them first, then that hit will do just about as much damage
long escarp
shadow presence is a lot better when you are running damage control
You mean when you are?
turbid needle
if you dont fiery is ok I guess
long escarp
Why would you not use shared suffering though
It’s a 60% damage bonus at worst
If you tag multiple enemies, it quickly ends up doing more damage than your attack
cunning urchin
Plenty of enemies that you don't need Shared Suffering for to one-shot especially if you have Fiery Presence. That saves time.
long escarp
It’s hard to stop your special arrows from bouncing to specific foes though. So if you use Fiery, it will generally give you an extra 6 damage or whatever for your special
long escarp
Plenty of enemies that you don't need Shared Suffering for to one-shot especiall...
Yes but there’s usually more than one enemy per room
And that upside is so small compared to what you gain from backstabs
“Save less than a second in rooms where there’s only one enemy” compared to “50% more damage against a majority of enemies”
languid forum
rama is slower than teh other bows
so actually getting the backstab is harder
as the enemy turns round whilst you're charging
bronze marten
I tend to special spam a lot w Rama so don’t really think I’ve noticed a difference tbh
Shared suffering
Easier than backstabs with rama
cunning urchin
I don't use Fiery Presence myself on a Rama, but you're oversimplifying a question that's been contested for probably as long as Rama has been out.
long escarp
so actually getting the backstab is harder
Just bait an attack, dash behind, and backstab. I find it to be pretty easy, especially against Tartarus enemies (yes, even with FO2 and even with speeder)
cunning urchin
Well, I guess the first day everybody was just Rama Special go brrr until they quickly patched it, so for as long as Rama has been out minus one day.
long escarp
I don't use Fiery Presence myself on a Rama, but you're oversimplifying a questi...
Alright that’s fair enough. I’m honestly surprised to hear that, it feels so intuitive to me that shadow would do so much more
long escarp
Well, I guess the first day everybody was just Rama Special go brrr until they q...
Wait what was broken with it? Did it do way more damage or apply to itself or something?
restive tiger
Is there soomething more broekn thanAres Athena for Malphon ?
long escarp
Yes
restive tiger
Oh
long escarp
Twin Shot Rama
Or the entire aspect of Beowulf
Or Charged Shot Zeus
Or Flurry Jab Achilles
long escarp
With fists? Mmm
Zeus attack with jolted is much more consistent with comparable damage output
restive tiger
Didn.’t test that flurry jab Achilles