power couple is straight up just dangerous on mm, personally it's run-ending
#h1-builds-and-combat
unkempt pagoda
hearty elbow
Have you turned on FO2 yet?
warped hemlock
Doesn't look like it. I had to check in my game since I'm mid run with select, so I had to clear the room.
hearty elbow
You'll find that the bosses... get more than 40% more difficult with it on lol. Mostly because more animation lengths start flirting with your human reaction speed.
warped hemlock
I can't wait lol, maybe I'll have to turn that one on to start pushing through it
unkempt pagoda
FO2 and hard labor don't interact well in your favor
hearty elbow
It has one of the higher learning curves of the pacts
hearty elbow
somewhere alongside AP2, BP2, TD2 Elysium and RI3
It's the most important to just leave on though, because you basically have to learn how to dodge everything all over again
warped hemlock
That's what I like to do, give myself a challenge to give myself something I need to learn to get over it, I turned everything on and tried a run for the fun of it, I think I got like, 1 or 2 rooms in before giving up though lol
hearty elbow
lol i think everyone's done that
unkempt pagoda
you could try doing the current weekly challenge
hearty elbow
nice wake up call đ
warped hemlock
There's a weekly challenge?
hearty elbow
lol... I need a calculator I guess? Offered rare Hunter Dash vs. Deadly Reversal (with Divine Strike) on Nemesis
unkempt pagoda
this week is 1 rank in every heat condition + hades aspect spear
hunter dash imo, you're gonna be critting a good bit of the time anyways with nemesis
DR'd be a nice pick up later though
hearty elbow
The only downside is that it makes getting Divine Dash less likely :3
unkempt pagoda
why dash when you kill everything first 
hearty elbow
Using AP1 RI2 right now lol, not super banking on "later"
I remember those times where getting epic Greatest Reflexes was likely. Good times.
warped hemlock
Man, I don't know all these terms by heart, I need to be more involved lol
hearty elbow
it's in the sticky
Hmm, did the math, and fwiw Hunter Dash results in a total multplier of 3.92, while Deadly Reversal results in 3.69.
Only damage boons right now are Rare lvl 2 Divine Strike at 75% and 30% from Double Edge.
That's not that far off. Which implies that if I had more additive damage sources, Deadly Reversal would just win out period.
warped hemlock
Time to see this "FO2" Everyone's been talking about
dry ember
FO2 is everyone being Sanic
warped hemlock
So far I think I actually prefer it, it might just be because I'm using the fists which are already high mobility though lol
hearty elbow
It's most noticeable on BP2 enemies and bosses
And some mini-bosses, like Power Couple
warped hemlock
It feels like the rooms just go by so much quicker though which is nice, which again, might just be a side effect of using the fists lol
warped hemlock
I died to Asterius lol, I think it takes some getting used to, but I think it's gonna be fun. I actually got him to half health before dying, but the greatshield enemies are the absolute worst enemies in the game and took basically all three of my death defies prior to fighting Asterius, so I sort of went in figuring it was the end
hearty elbow
Oh, in case anyone forgot to mention, FO2 also increases projectile speeds by 40%, and stacks (I am not certain of additively or multiplicatively) with Speeder, which is a 50% speed bonus, which also affects projectile speeds
magic dagger
speeder wavemakers are fun
warped hemlock
Ooof sounds like hell.
magic dagger
that would be the entire game, sir
warped hemlock
Right you are. It all makes sense now, I always wondered what these weird levels I kept going through were and why they were named weird things.
thin hull
what's a good amount for dodge tanking with plume by the final boss?
hearty elbow
As much as you can get?
Dodge isn't really a mechanic people typically build around. Don't think of it as face tanking, think of your dodge chance as a direct multiplier to your maximum health
thin hull
I'm asking more to figure out what the threshold is for abandoning it for acorn in styx
hearty elbow
(Also, all dodge sources are multplicative with each other, so even with insane boons and Plume, you're probably not exceeding 60-70%)
You do not keep bonuses from Plume after switching it out
thin hull
I know
hearty elbow
So... if you want the vague math, take the first 5 hits you think you'll get hit by Hades, and compare it to the approximate amount that your dodge chance would prevent. On average, Dodge should directly multiply your health by your percentage, maybe a little bit more because of DD/SD. So, assuming that Acorn would prevent 100 damage, and you have 250 health by the boss, you'd need a dodge chance roughly 40% to match Acorn. That was pretty conservative math. With any ranks in HL, it gets more stilted in Acorn's favor
tl;dr Acorn is always better
thin hull
so unless I can get some hermes boons as well to get up to the "max" of ~60%, it's more for fun than a serious build
hearty elbow
I should say, with 4 lives, and a large health pool, Plume could be better? I'm used to playing with low life total with SD at this point though, so yeah.
Lol, if it's for fun, there is no reason you should drop the Plume. Meme away
steady hatch
Dodge is good though
thin hull
I usually force enough demeter into my build that I can be full health for hades 7/10 times, even if I go full tank with arthur and grabbing all the centaur hearts
hearty elbow
When it's free
Not at the cost of 2 god keepsakes, and 2 Acorns
Or 150 gold or whatever
thin hull
I only take the coinpurse so I can farm the titan blood in styx
steady hatch
Yea im not saying it's ideal
hearty elbow
Coinpurse is always good if you don't need the gods to show up.
thin hull
or, if I get lucky with hammers and am using stygius
hearty elbow
And my math was obviously funky--it's really hard to answer that objectively. It's a super moving target considering extra lives, the fact that dodge works everywhere, or if you get unlucky with Soulcatcher elite in the last fight, etc.
hearty elbow
The hashtag meta atm is #acorn-life
Mostly yes. There are very few exceptions
Crit and the "Charged x" hammers are the most common ones
thin hull
I need to figure out how to win with spear tho so I can finish that prophecy
should I perhaps just dump blood into guan yu?
hearty elbow
Exploding Launcher with Zag aspect is fun and dodges a lot of the baggage of the spear without spending a lot of blood
GY has a pretty steep learning curve, if you want to finish the prophecy you can definitely do it with base Zag. Having good hammers helps
thin hull
I'm pretty good at positioning for GY spin
hearty elbow
Shrug, it's your blood :3. I'm just saying it's definitely not necessary for your goal
hearty elbow
GY is pretty awful until max level
hearty elbow
You should try Athena with the spin. Creates a near invulnerable circle around you if you camp inside them
Alternatively, Charged Skewer on GY is basically Exploding Launcher on crack, and is one of the highest base damage sources in the game
(I mean... it's no Charged Flight on Beo, but there is like almost literally no way SGG is keeping that nonsense around... don't tell @cunning urchin I said that)
plush iron
ok
tight eagle
GY seems pretty cool, but unless you level it up, it's pretty impossible to use correctly imo
loud sigil
Which companion do you guys recommend as the first one?
half crater
thanatos for sure
half crater
most of them aren't
random hull
I would recommend Shady (Sisyphus), but the conditions for unlocking it are more difficult. It can be used in the final fight too.
random hull
In fact, you get some funny reactions if you use it against him.
small stirrup
GY seems pretty cool, but unless you level it up, it's pretty impossible to use correctly imo
You don't need to level the boy up to his max to make him useful
half crater
ok sold i love funny reactions
loud sigil
Thanks guys!
half crater
gonna try this rn
thin hull
nyx still won't let me have antos or shady 
loud sigil
Whoever i run into first ill give my juice
small stirrup
Final Boss ||His spinny lasers are still bugged and clip through the "walls"||
No way that still happens. I thought its been fixed completely by now (This is from #hades-feedback )
half crater
i didn't realise that was a bug for so long
thought i was just dumb and bad at dodging
small stirrup
It was a prominent bug during the steam release
but it got patched out pretty well after a while
small stirrup
I haven't had a problem with his lasers since long winter
half crater
oh no wait
i'm halfway through tartarus and i just realised i forgot to switch to shady, which was the whole point of this run
small stirrup
Gg
plush iron
oh right
achilles aspect
what u guys think about it
i feel like its too hard to use
like i feel like it should work like the charge uppercut of the fists
small stirrup
I mean it felt super wonky when I first used it since it actively moves my position, but once you get in practice, it feels like a super quick version of the shield bash
I still like GY better though
plush iron
ooo
yeh my issue is that if you dont press the special again in time it just returns the spear
which just is really convoluted
also
whats special about GY anyway? ik the health stealing is interesting
but the health reduction is quite punishing
i heard like the special was good apparently but idk why
dire wedge
The health reduction is less punishing at when GY is fully upgraded.
GY special has increased damage and pierces enemies
rare kayak
small stirrup
The spin is also a projectile instead of a normal spin
plush iron
quite slow tho
i need to get lucy aspect tho
ohhhh just checked. I havnt spent enough blood into exagraph
frosty pier
Oh god Lucy...
I may be not understanding it, but at my point of Hades journey I think that no wonder he fell with a weapon like this.
frosty pier
At the part of "How to keep calm and start using extreme measures past 2"
Slowly trying to get to 10 heat on all weapons.
frosty pier
And to think that we will get EM4
half crater
oh jeez
this is probably the correct response lol
frosty pier
Knowing them, they would make a bit more than that.
half crater
indeed
half crater
has it actually been confirmed we'll get EM4? i can't remember if its just (fairly likely) speculation or not
plush iron
like how when u spurn a god and use their call you hear them get mad
felt guilty doing that
thin hull
Grabbed egg instead of acorn before Styx rip
small stirrup
Good luck
tight eagle
i dont even have the S U C K
frosty pier
Ah the good old case of "I want to die, but all 3 of my dd are still here"
reef galleon
Do you guys ever consciously use backstab mechanic or choose to make a build around it? I'm curious because I kinda feel it's somewhat more arbitrary and unreliable than other tactics you can build around.
main osprey
Yup, definitely use it intentionally
Don't usually build around it, but if I luck into the boons that enhance it I'll make an extra effort to use it
thin hull
1k backstabs on the final boss felt really good
main osprey
Yup
reef galleon
the numbers from backstabs marked golden right?
main osprey
That aspect can get well above 1k though xD
I think so?
Not sure of the top of my head
random hull
Golden is damage dealt with Athena boons and deflects.
reef galleon
random hull
Backstabs have white numbers, and sometimes a prompt comes up showing BACKSTAB!
thin hull
Always pops the backstab floaty
But yeah, I only got the one chaos boon for attack damage so 1k was the limit
random hull
So it's hard to see sometimes whether you connect with a backstab or not, because the prompt only comes up once, and not with subsequent hits.
lunar salmon
unkempt pagoda
feedback idea: making it so mm skullcrusher's wave doesn't stretch across the entire battlefield, like how dad's waves don't
hearty elbow
I'd be okay if they had an extending hitbox that behaved and made sense. In that way it's exactly like Dad's phase 2 transition wave
Except Dad's initial hitbox isn't like 10 Dads wide
thin hull
Heh. Same God again and got the duo anyways
hearty elbow
(for reference I'm like 300 hours in and I'm still missing a couple of the legendaries lol)
random hull
I managed to force all of them back when Fated Authority was the only thing available.
hearty elbow
Unless I am meming particularly hard I don't anticipate getting Poseidon's... ever.
I did Super Soaker Lucifer a couple of times and never saw it
thin hull
That was my last one 
hearty elbow
Nice!
hearty elbow
Lol, yeah, it made my rama 49 run like... all by itself
thin hull
It's Dio + grandma duo... And I also built into grandma legendary
hearty elbow
Winter Harvest is def my favorite animation in the game
small stirrup
Zag petting Cerberus is objectively the best animation in the game
void fjord
does athena's defiance thing work in RI4?
barren otter
I'd imagine it's not even offered. Though one way you could have it offered is if you use up Lucky Tooth. I don't know for sure.
random hull
I got it offered and was afraid to take it. I was later informed that it would indeed have gotten me a regular Death Defiance.
formal basin
I'm getting absolutely messed up trying to do a Hades Spear 32 heat run. I can't seem to get my boons and hammer upgrades to line up right for something effective. Doesn't help that all the spin upgrades only seem situationally useful as a meaty or from behind cover.
hearty elbow
Spear's base damage is just terrible without a hammer, even with Punishing Sweep. You really do need a damage hammer, moreso than a spin one. The spin hammers are more QoL
formal basin
I know, but when one is greyed out and the other 2 are spins well...only so much I can do about it. I prefer massive sweep, because at least then I can abuse terrain in smaller rooms.
hearty elbow
Hades definitely not my favorite aspect to play blind into a run, unfortunately. What I'd do is probably play other stuff and whenever you get a hammer in room 1, Give Up and switch to Hades to see if you have something good (Exploding Launcher, Serrated Point) with APx
formal basin
I've done that actually. Got a nice exploding launcher right out the gate and didn't get a special until Elysium. RNG hasn't been my friend lately.
hearty elbow
It's not insanely necessary to get a special, though. Punishing Sweep is an additive buff so it's a lot less dramatic of a damage increase than it would be normally
(you obviously want one at some point before Elysium but yeah)
When you get to the point where you want to hit a high heat breakpoint, what you could do once you get the seed is Give Up if you don't get a boon you want from the god keepsake spawn.
nova goblet
-_- not a fan of getting an erebus chamber in tartaus and the enemies r elysium enemies
main osprey
Hooray for flamewheels :3
nova goblet
i also had the elysium witches with the BP that increases their attack speed by smth like 50% so almost as soon as it spawned it i got hit
charred pilot
Does the Shattered Shackle take into account Chaos Boons or one's that just are attack, cast and special?
main osprey
Only Core Boons, which doesn't include Chaos afaik
charred pilot
Cheers
main osprey
o7 best of luck!
main osprey
Oof
charred pilot
Yeah gonna try it again, I got a build that I think is working with it
main osprey
Nice!
charred pilot
yay did it but it was a rubbish build and low heat
warped hemlock
Does FO2 also impact Zagreus or is it just the enemies?
thin hull
Was doing a guan yu run and got to the final boss with 68 HP, but I dodged everything
Until the dude summoned two butterfly balls that insta-popped my acorn
dire wedge
Does FO2 also impact Zagreus or is it just the enemies?
Only enemies
magic dagger
imagine an extra 40 % bonus speed
that would be dope
warped hemlock
Wow the spear with the spinning attack counters lernie so well. Almost escaped completely unscathed in a fight I totally expected to death defy on. With the FO2
Specifically with the massive spin deadalus upgrade.
warped hemlock
Holy Hell Theseus is a pain in the butt with FO2 and EM3 christ almighty run ender with three death defies just like that on a run that was going so well.
Like, there's no.... what's the phrase.... no point to attack him, no point where he catches his breath, no pattern to follow, it's just bombs bombs and bombs it's terrible
There's no weak spot in a sense, but with timing is what I'm trying to say
That's how I can defeat them usually, wait for them to stop attacking and get a few hits in, but it is just so rare, and the bombs land so fast it's almost impossible to dodge if it's anywhere near your vicinity
dire wedge
EM3 Theseus has a window where you can wail on him when he just preens with confetti around him. And when you get used to it you can attack him from behind while he circles around the edge of arena, remembering to be careful when he reaches the lanes where he turns and starts shooting.
warped hemlock
I think I need to get more practice in, pinpoint things, get timings down to really have a chance. Before dying to Theseus, Asterius took a couple death defies with his charges. Like, I started the dash animation and got hit right at the start of it still because it was so fast. I need to deal with him charging a lot better, it's usually pretty difficult without FO2 but I can usually manage to slam him into a wall. I wish I could train more but it's a grind to get there with each run taking like, 30-40 minutes between breaks, stopping to do something, checking messages, just general distractions, so it's like, discouraging to get so heavily bodied there.
I think I'm going to lower some other options so I have a better chance of at least beating the run and getting more rewards. Until it's up to that point. Right now I'm only getting rewards at heat 6 for most things, if not less lol.
FO2 is staying on though, so that I can get some practice, but I'm taking Theseus' chariot away lol.
cunning urchin
FO2 requires a lot of concentration and regular practice to do cleanly when coupled with EM or BP, especially.
But also just experience and strategy.
cunning urchin
And, I suppose, good reactions. If you can't react to a certain attack, you can't react to it. Practice can help with that, and better hardware can help with it, but only to certain point.
weary minnow
With the charge I tend to hug the pillars and dash round them. If I don't I know I'll get hit by it.
warped hemlock
I honestly think the heroes are the hardest boss even more so than the final boss. I think lernie is possible to learn but bad spawns can make you take some unfortunate damage the furies each have their own patterns which are fairly easy to learn, but like with me, it can be easy to get impatient and take dumb damage that's usually avoidable. I haven't gotten to Styx yet with FO2 but the baby rats and the satyrs are probably going to be the most annoying, but not crazy, and the final boss has some easy to recognize patterns but the Lazers though.... the lazers... (sidenote: I know who the final boss is but I'm trying to keep it pretty broad for anyone so as to not spoil it for them if that is something I need to be worried about in this channel)
thin hull
Practice helps immensely because it helps you learn to filter down to only the relevant stimuli, eg a certain sound in a combo chain that lets you know it's over but is "buried" under the sound of other attacks
warped hemlock
It's also nearly 4 in the morning for me, so I'm also just not all there and probably saying some silly things lol, so I'm going to head to bed, and get some more practice in tomorrow
Practice is really what it boils down to. Practice and reaction time. You're never going to learn patterns without experiencing taking damage from something, so you just sort of have to get hit and die until it clicks lol.
thin hull
Building properly helps too
It's always nice to be able to mostly ignore their attack patterns because you've got piercing from range or are just that tanky
weary minnow
What's FO2?
thin hull
Which aspect?
weary minnow
Basic. I'm lacking titans blood.
thin hull
I like using the special to apply Ares or Aphrodite then getting some meaty damage on the attack
But even with athena or Aphrodite or Demeter attack, spear damage is depressing
Upgraded Ares might work
weary minnow
I've noticed it's really bad damage. I've been keeping back and using the special mostly to clear rooms.
cunning urchin
I think Varatha's damage is fine. Definitely make hammers a priority when you see them, unless there's like a trial or something in the other chamber.
It's just affected a lot by hammers.
weary minnow
Last run I got tripple attack. That did a lot. Helped with the hydra when you add deflect to it.
warped hemlock
Really? I can get through hades part 1 pretty easy with most builds/weapons. He'll get a couple of lucky shots from bad dodging maybe, but nothing serious usually, and if I'm being impatient and getting hit more often, it usually clicks that I need to prioritize survival and whittling, unless my damage is good enough to make up for getting hit. The jars are the bane of my existence though. Since there's so many variables around them.
thin hull
depending on what weapon I have, I often just attack the jars myself in the areas where I wanna exist
cunning urchin
Yeah. First of all, Hades is affected more by pacts and affected by more pacts. Second, if you make it to Hades, you already had a build that was strong enough to defeat Theseus and Asterius and make it through the Temple of Styx. So there's some sampling bias there.
On high heat, people usually die more to Hades than they die to Theseus and Asterius. If they die in Elysium or during that fight, it's typically to TD2, and that's a different issue.
Both Theseus and Asterius are very straightforward solo fights once you've killed the other.
warped hemlock
Yeah but then he can summon them back right away sometimes and then it's like what was the point exactly? When hitting them can hurt you sometimes if you have a bad dodge. And that's true I suppose, it's odd to think of it, but it feels like I've beaten the heroes less than I've beaten Hades, and that's physically impossible lol.
cunning urchin
I rarely destroy his urns. I let him sweep them, usually, with his spin attack, and generally just move the fight to an area that gives me just enough space.
thin hull
sometimes I get clever and whack urns under his feet, but it's rare that I've got the range to do that consistently
cunning urchin
I'm very comfortable at this point fighting him in a very tight space.
thin hull
I like it when I'm able to roll tanky enough to just face tank him
though I presume that's a lot harder to do at high heat
cunning urchin
Yeah, I can't do that anymore on high heat. 
Well, maybe in like the low 40s with a good build.
Where you can still just turn off HL entirely.
warped hemlock
I think it's because with Hades, the strategy is fairly straightforward, and it's more like, after you figure out his attack patterns you're fine, like there's some rng in which attacks he'll do, and that can shorten or lengthen the time it takes to beat him based on his, exposed times(?) From his attacks (Maybe that's a term that works for what I'm trying to convey), but after that it's just getting hits on him. With the heroes, there's a lot more things to consider and the reads aren't as obvious or easy to bait out.
cunning urchin
They just have unfair attacks that you can't do anything about.
Like if Theseus shoots you from off-screen, there's no time to react to that. You just get hit if you're in the line of fire.
But you can relatively fast turn the 2v1 into 1v1.
warped hemlock
Like with Asterius' charge, if you're not in a position to negate it you're almost guaranteed a hit since his charge literally never stops unless he runs into something and he pivots on a dime with insane reaction speed to where Zag is. Like, that's nigh unavoidable damage. He's always the bigger threat for me because his range is much higher so I choose to take him out first, and if I were to try and get Theseus to his second phase first that's an extra group of possible patterns to have to adjust for
thin hull
seems like theseus first would still be the strat imo
since you can just free-whack him on the chariot, then use mort to knock him out while he's doing the god-calling thing
cunning urchin
Well, the bull charge I actually think is fine for the most part. He doesn't do it that often anyway, and it's only 1 hit that you can tank with the Acorn easily.
warped hemlock
Asterius' swings are easy to predict, but only a couple of attacks leave exposed time for dealing damage, and of those attacks it's harder to bait out the ones that do, like you can do it, but it's more risky to, where as Theseus' attacks are very easy to bait out, at least after chariot, and before chariot you can sort of just tail behind and wail on him.
I don't know, he did it like, 4-5 times in a row (or at least in a fairly short period of time) last time, it took one of my death defies and like, half of another because he keeps pivoting around pillars and does like, 90 degree turns from the wall.
cunning urchin
I usually try to go after Theseus first in order to get hits on both fast, or I focus on Asterius first. Depends on aspect and build.
Ideally, they die at the same time.
warped hemlock
Maybe I just got unlucky, but for my first FO2 fight against the two of them they took no mercy on me for what could have been one of my better runs and put an end to it.
Really? I always focus one and then focus the other independently, because it's less time dealing with multiple threats.
tight eagle
I like to get rid of Asterius first, he's much easier to get down
cunning urchin
It's less time dealing with any threats if you can damage both with your attacks.
warped hemlock
And the first is almost always Asterius because getting Theseus to half summons a third threat to deal with.
tight eagle
After that he wont hit me with that bullcrap charge jump
cunning urchin
The mods don't like if you evade the swear filter. 
warped hemlock
Anyway, it's after 4:30 now, so I'm going to sleep lol.
tight eagle
Wanted to keep the pun 
cunning urchin
Good night!
barren otter
That's a hard question, because this game is super well balanced. Well, I guess slow-hitting things don't work well with Dionysis/Zeus on attack, but that's about it.
narrow rampart
there isn't really a-- yeah, basically that
barren otter
You can make just about anything work
narrow rampart
as a general guideline, weapons that have a lot of base damage go best with Aphro/Arty/Athena, while weapons that hit a lot but for little damage are best with Dio/Zeus
but yeah you can make anything work, more or less
gleaming current
Most of the time best attack/special boons are heartbreak/deadly for damage output, divine if you want to deflect stuff, curse of doom/agony if it is a secondary attack (or main if in combo with ME). There is no absolute leader though, and each weapon can be approached with a few solid gods at least
static jacinth
And specials also make things a little trickier.
Like, Fists might not want want Ares on attack, but Curse of Pain for weaving in some doom on your specials? Really nice sometimes.
cunning urchin
Errrrrrrr. No, Malphon definitely wants Doom on Attack, and does not want it on Special.
static jacinth
Huh, why? Outside of Merciful ending stuff, can you get much value out of doom on attack with Malphon?
I never felt like the doom stacking talent was enough to justify it compared to Divine Strike or Frost Strike.
cunning urchin
Curse of Agony and Lightning Strike have the best DPS on Malphon even on single targets.
static jacinth
Just curse of agony on its own?
cunning urchin
Yes.
static jacinth
Wow. I'm going to have to math that out sometime. It feels wrong, somehow, for Curse of Agony to be the top DPS on a fast weapon.
toxic kite
hey, what blade aspect and spear aspect is the best for you guys ?
cunning urchin
static jacinth
Oh, but that's without any mirror talents?
cunning urchin
That's base damage of the weapon + boon damage. So yes.
static jacinth
Anything that modifies attack would benefit more from attack ups from stuff like heartbreak. Which a lot of mirror talents do, so that would sway things a fair bit.
static jacinth
Doom doesn't benefit from stuff like Boiling Blood and can't backstab. But the bonus damage from Heartbreak strike can, no?
static jacinth
Hmm.
cunning urchin
Backstab damage applies to the base damage, so the boon doesn't matter. They all get the same backstab damage added.
Only crit benefits more from additive bonuses like that because crits are multiplicative.
gleaming current
In fact PS may actually be better for secondary statuses rather than damage boon
cunning urchin
But it's not really enough to pull ahead of anything on Malphon.
static jacinth
Welp. So it goes. Huh.
hearty elbow
Maybe the same reason I haven't tried Charged Flight on Beo? I loved ranged weapons and I don't want the damage from that to soil my experience :3
cunning urchin
Just turn up the heat.
gray moon
What the general opinion on Excalibur? Its the only sword aspect I can use, regular sword moveset feels very bleh, to me
thin hull
face-tank builds are fun
the damage from dash-strike + first combo move is also pretty good and very very mobile
gray moon
using it, it almost feels like regular Sword with Worldsplitter on by default
maybe not quite, but something like that
fluid stag
yo what is the benefit of merciful end
I thought for a while it just meant attacks that deflect apply doom
but that's not it
how is that good at all
steady hatch
you can proc doom like three times a second if you have fast enough weapon and deflect on dash
it's pretty much the most busted thing if you have the right setup
fluid stag
yeah but why not just want it to wait the full time to apply more doom
isn't that more dps
steady hatch
that's only if you have dire misfortune
(which i don't even think is good most of the time)
steady hatch
merciful end adds 50 damage to doom too
fluid stag
oh nice
steady hatch
that is if you break it with a deflect, i think
mighty ermine
yeah, you only get the bonus 50 if doom is activated early with the deflecting action
reef galleon
Heroic High Voltage effects take up like half the room even on base level
worn sand
thick onyx
Advice? 250 hp with the Stubborn Roots regen. Entering the last fight with 180 hp. https:// i.imgur.com/fBQxUaK.png
Got Greater Dash and Serrated Point, my strategy for the last fight will likely be plonk the Cast down to proc those lightnings and spam dash attacks
I'm not sure if Deadly Strike would be preferable since I have plenty of chill from my dash
Dang it, got my butt handed to me.
frail salmon
Anyone have any tips for All Green mirror runs? I'm trying to complete a fated list challenge but I can't get past Hades with only one DD
thin hull
I usually power through by actively and hatefully avoiding any calls that aren't athena, ares or poseidon
dio fountain boon is also really really helpful, if you can pick it up at the last second or if you already had it
frail salmon
what about Arty and just criting my way through everyone and everything?
barren otter
You don't have to clear the game with full green mirror for the fated list to count. You can turn on some green talents and keep most purple, it will count the ones you've selected.
thin hull
you can do artemis builds, but I usually do that with indirect fire type builds overall
frail salmon
yeah It's just easier this way and stubborn D is one of hte ones I need.
magic dagger
All green with guan yu crit special feels good
charged skewer and breaching skewer, you'll never need to take damage
thin hull
either way, I pretty much always try to get some damage mitigation in the build ie athena dash or really really nail down the spear swing timings
I also really really really like boiling blood over abyssal and no hermes dislodge
but the slow isn't the worst, I guess
frail salmon
alright I've only kept the ones I need, I'm gonna try for some kind of arty run
magic dagger
found an old challenge run with that build https://i.imgur.com/8aBReeZ.jpg
frail salmon
I'm gonna go nemsis sword and see what happens, if my crits are high enough I won't be able to die
thin hull
that looks a lot like my first spear win, actually
ah I had the "everything crits" thing and athena special
magic dagger
try arti dash and aphro attack
thin hull
got an arthur win with that
sorry, almost got an arthur win with that
didn't get a lucky dodge on second phase beams
with a 36% plume
frail salmon
is it even possible to extra dashes while running Ruthless reflex? Because I've done 4 runs for it so far and I have yet to even seen a common dash increase
thin hull
the single dash is a remarkably good way to learn better dash timings tho
since it has that pop-up when you dodge something
frail salmon
I'm almost ready to accept that perusasion and regeneration are the only good green mirror options.
thin hull
I end up only having one extra life for Hades if I go death defiance
frail salmon
i can usually get to him with all three if i have the plus 50 heatlh
thin hull
Golden touch is great
Lets you farm diamonds/blood
Dark regen is better imo, tho less so if you're not doing repeat runs of the earlier bosses
magic dagger
I cry a little when I collect titan blood from the furies
thin hull
Fiery presence is good if you can stack first hit damage high enough
Just destroy armor in one hit
I feel like family favorite is more reliable?
Vs maintaining duo debuffs
magic dagger
it's good for runs where you don't get many gods
thin hull
I prefer dark foresight, buy I also try to hit Demeter and euridice as much as possible
magic dagger
what is dark foresight?
thin hull
More gold leaf rooms
Instead of more rare boons
I do enjoy ruthless reflex.. if I get at least one more dash outa Hermes
Makes for an extremely entertaining fists build where you tap dash and attack constantly
thin hull
even then, I really only want the second dash for the final boss's spins
otherwise, I'm good with just one
magic dagger
if you run for a short time before dashing you can easily dodge spins with one dash
easily
relatively easily, anyways
imagine not being able to beat this weekly challenge because you don't know how to Hades Spear
wouldn't that be embarrassing
frail salmon
alright I'm going into hades and I have stubborn roots this time so that should be helpful
magic dagger
ooh nice
try not to get hit very often
My spear skills are so bad that I've actually been going for splash dash runs
frail salmon
AGH
so close
god I hate having one dash so freaking much
screw this list challenge, going back to the way I normally play
magic dagger
try a few greens at a time
frail salmon
I only have a few that need cleared which is the sad part
magic dagger
you've got this!
but definitely do remember to do fun runs
frail salmon
I'm really just trying to get through the story and unlock compainos
Like I've hardly done any heat runs
but I want more TB to get all my weapons up to max
magic dagger
o0f
try picking a single heat option that looks fun and turning it all the way up
frail salmon
Yeah I suppose
but the thing is
None of them look fun as they are making an already hard game harder XD
Why would I want to be taking 100% damage
magic dagger
lol
frail salmon
I don't know how people like Healian clear 30+ heat like its no big deal
magic dagger
EM, BP, FO and TD add flavor to the game
so does MM but that one's a little harder to deal with
frail salmon
Extreme Measures, Forced Overtime, Tight Deadline, what's BP?
magic dagger
Benefits package, gives some armored foes new attributes
frail salmon
ah that's right
magic dagger
adds flavor to the humdrum everyday elite rooms
thin hull
that's been my go-to "need 2 heat" one
I'm kinda scared of EM3, but also it seems like it'd be a bit easier?
frail salmon
Aestarius and Thesus upgraded sounds like Hades
magic dagger
EM3 makes bullboi hit harder but turns fratboi into a punching bag
frail salmon
Thesus turns into the freaking mini boss bomber in Styx
magic dagger
without EM3 is harder for me than with, because I also run TD and have trouble with the shield
thin hull
yeah, non-EM "king"+bull man kills me on chaos shield more than I'd like to admit
seems like landing than would be harder than it is in non-EM
magic dagger
oh heck no
he can't block, so you just need to be in the same half of the arena as him
frail salmon
that's nice I guess
but doesn't bull boy become a beyblade
that takes up 1/3 of the arena?
frail salmon
I really wanna get a good punishing sweep run
with massive spin and quick spin, become my own beyblade
magic dagger
My spear skills are so bad that I've actually been going for splash dash runs on this week's challenge đ˘
frail salmon
what's this challenge your talking about?
frail salmon
ah
bronze sorrel
Why am I so bad with Coronacht?
magic dagger
have you tried dash-striking?
the charge time is faster, so you can dash to line up a shot/escape trouble, powershot, dash again
it's very mobile
twin shot doubles your damage output
bronze sorrel
KBM
magic dagger
I don't like to suggest this, but if your problem is just aim, there is an aim assist option
if it's builds though, we can help you here
bronze sorrel
On my last run I had like an 8 pom heartbreak strike (epic), with twin shot and explosive shot, and a 6 pom hunters dash (epic), and a epic tier Artemis call. I somehow got trounced by redacted on a measly 6 heat.
magic dagger
well, stuff like that happens to everyone occasionally lol
static jacinth
Sometimes your brain just shuts off and you get beat up.
bronze sorrel
I get wrecked by redacted with bow alot in particular. Haven't quite identified why.
magic dagger
do you fall into a rhythm when you play?
bronze sorrel
What do you mean by that? Like with dash attacks?
magic dagger
any combo that you homebrewed, when/where you dash, which attack you use, whatever
magic dagger
For a really long time when I was using zag sword with one dash, I would dash-strike - slash - special - repeat
and I kept dying to the final boss
once I intentionally broke that rhythm I won, because I was actually able to react to his movements
bronze sorrel
Hmmm, that could maybe be it.
I also wonder if I try to trigger stuff like hunters mark or battle rage to much instead of focusing on b&bs.
toxic kite
Hey, what do you think of the Aspect of ||Beowulf|| ? I just unlocked it and it feels very slow with nothing really special to it...
magic dagger
it hits really hard
main osprey
ironically, the special is great
magic dagger
charged throw with arti special
it's pretty special
also you can spam casts like a boss because they can't lodge
toxic kite
I have athena on both special and thow. As the throw goes on you I feel like it just does nothing. And as the shield already counter well... Athena's boon is useless đ
toxic kite
I never played shield a lot so I forgot that he already block damage when charging the attack >_<
Anyway, the weapon feels weird to me
Like the charge attack is sooo long to caste that you're getting hit and it doesn't deal that much damage so I could rather use the basic attack
toxic kite
Well after all I almost took no damage from hades, so i guess even tho the gameplay is pretty slow, the weapon does allows huge facetanking !
But is it better than the chaos shield tho ?
small stirrup
excalibur is a great weapon with interesting features, but the health increase makes it overpowered
@delicate mortar I would strongly disagree with this. You're just generally good with Arthur. Hell mode, 6 heat is not that insane where you can't get an extremely tanky build without ease. Excalibur is definitely a great weapon but it for sure isn't overpowered. (This is from #hades-feedback )
bronze sorrel
If you want a more as intended aproach to Aegis future aspect, festive fog builds can get pretty nasty.
Also, charged shot is interesting if you want to turn it back into a cast.
turbid needle
Anyone know of a way to make the new bow aspect not feel clunky and slow? Im 3/4 into the run and Im still struggling to clear rooms with it due to the super slow wind up. Any help/feedback would be amazing.
Edit: Im constantly having to shoot before the power shot due to enemies closing the gap before I can get it charged, even with the dash attack. The aspect is so different compared to the fast paced nature of the game to HAVE to wait for such a long charge since your special doesnt do much damage on its own and lasts a certain amount of time for the debuff.
dire wedge
dash-striking with rama will make the charge time go faster. also rama isn't a power shot weapon to get damage, that's what shared suffering is for. rama is a melee weapon in the form of a bow
turbid needle
it does like 50 damage close range tho
tacit stump
i once did a full special based build with rama with zeus on like 12 heat, it was a bit scuffed but i didnt even bother attacking that run
dire wedge
that's what aphro attack is for
watch krashercorr's 41 heat rama run for ideas for an attack-focused build
steady hatch
there are people trying to figure out speedrun strategies for rama and so far everything has been really slow
cunning urchin
@worn sand @main osprey EM1 and EM3 give them more HP. EM2 doesn't affect Lernie's HP.
tight eagle
Jesus why do I have to choose between Poseidon legendary and his duo with Zeus
that hurts
took the duo, it's 2 status effects for the price of one, cant say no to that
narrow rampart
Their duo is amazing
warped kernel
I had a good build a few runs ago
Hera bow
Dio/zeus
Dio/dem
Zeus/pos
I think pos/dio?
The bad part was i had pos attack
So it knocked enemies out of the cloud
turbid needle
Any tips for hidden spear aspect? I've been trying to get the Ares cast with the boon that pulls enemies into it so I can send the spinning heal right behind it to maximize healing but the HP decrease ends up destroying me every run
hearty elbow
It's pretty heavily dependent on your hammers. So what I typically like to do is start off with Divine Strike, play it by ear, then go harder on that if I get Quick or Massive Spin, or pivot to Heartbreak/Deadly Flourish if I get Charged Skewer
cunning urchin
Heartbreak Flourish, Deadly Flourish, or Divine Flourish if you want to focus on Special.
turbid needle
How is charged skewer damage compared to the bow?
hearty elbow
A lot higher
turbid needle
Aight, ty
hearty elbow
With full charge, Charged Skewer has 135 base damage, with Twin Shot, Bow has 120 Power Shot, but Skewer is much longer range, and more flexible for charge time
It's even less with dash Power Shot, which is what you'll be doing most of the time. That's 80 with Twin
hearty elbow
It says that but not really, no
turbid needle
Nice
hearty elbow
It does get a variable range but it's pretty much always fine.
thin hull
with charged skewer, hades basically can't hit you
and you're doing like 200+ damage per hit
hearty elbow
With Zag aspect figured in, Bow has 96 base damage with Twin Shot
toxic kite
Does some of you have tips to have good runs with lucifer gun ? I find the weapon funny but it's like so hard to play, especially against boss
turbid needle
Zeus all the way. Double lightning boon. Extra dash with Hermes because you can dash without cancelling your attack
toxic kite
Do you shoot your special to people or do you place it around ? I find it hard to use because of enemies mobility you know
main osprey
Both
toxic kite
Oh alright*
main osprey
Depends on how fast they're moving towards me xD
toxic kite
This aspect isn't easy to use
turbid needle
I've also done Ares on attack with Athena dash to get the duo Merciful End but that involves dashing directly onto enemies. With +3 damage it trashes everything though
And I start the reload animation and immediately fire special (or vice versa, one of them is faster) to make sure I don't have too much downtime on damage
*+3 dashes, not damage
toxic kite
the gameplay already is pretty stiff, so i hate getting myself stuck because "Ah yes I need to let this weapon reload" đ
turbid needle
Ooh yeah make sure you're walking or dashing when you reload so you don't stay standing still for the animation
warped kernel
how much blood is necessary to max out all the aspects?
void fjord
so 306
small stirrup
So 306
void fjord
lol
small stirrup
Yeah I thought 41 for a sec lol
toxic kite
That's A LOT of blood
magic dagger
it's meh
small stirrup
Yeah its more than the bounties give you
magic dagger
you get a lot from nectars/keys
small stirrup
One weapon bounty gives you 42 blood in total
magic dagger
you can get it from the shop
magic dagger
you can get A LOT from nectar
small stirrup
"Bold" of you to assume you have nectar that you won't give to Bouldy
thin hull
also you can farm blood/diamonds using the mirror thing and hypnos keepsake if you're at a low enough heat level to always hit styx
magic dagger
also prophecies
warped kernel
noted thanks!
burnt obsidian
What's the 'mirror thing'?
I'd like to earn much more blood and finding beating the game with bounties kinda hard
main osprey
Gives you more Obol every region
15% of current (at max rank)
Triggers in the room after each boss
I think it's called Golden Touch
burnt obsidian
So just use that, and never spend obols until styx?
main osprey
Other than buying darkness/gems if you need them
thin hull
I just skip all shops and usually come out of elysium with ~ 1300 obols
range is between 900 and 1600
always fun to buy the blood and a boon
delicate mortar
@delicate mortar I would strongly disagree with this. You're just generally good with Arthur. Hell mode, 6 heat is not that insane where you can't get an extremely tanky build without ease. Excalibur is definitely a great weapon but it for sure isn't overpowered. (This is from #hades-feedback )
@small stirrup i don't consider myself a great player, middle of the road at best! and my point is, even without the health boost, arthur is still a good weapon, don't you think?
cunning urchin
It's super easy to have a "broken" build at 6 Heat with any aspect.
I think Excalibur is perfectly fine the way it is.
If you think it's too easy, you can increase the heat to make things appropriately challenging.
half crater
i steamrolled through 12 the other day, pretty sure breaking 6 is allowed
its a roguelike, so usually RNG will screw you over somewhere
but sometimes it doesn't at all and everything's breezy
that's kinda how RNG works
hearty elbow
even without the health boost, arthur is still a good weapon, don't you think?
@delicate mortar It's not that simple. Obviously I can't speak for SGG, but my guess would be that the extra health + damage reduction aura would make it clear that Excalibur was designed to trade hits with your enemies (and come out on top).
The problem with this model is that it isn't scalable. At the core of roguelikes are two functions: how many times can you get hit, and how many hits does it take to kill my enemy. The usual way to maximize the first is to not get hit in the first place, and this is where Excalibur fails. Where "normal" weapons that rely on dodging scale exactly as well as enemy damage increases, Excalibur's mitigation and extra health do not.
cunning urchin
GGG?
hearty elbow
Excalbur offensive strengths, namely the massive hits on the triple attack combo and its huge sweeping arcs also get mitigated by pacts like Damage Control and Forced Overtime.
This isn't to say Excalibur is bad. It's just... different. Which is a good place to be.
GGG?
@cunning urchin Lol, I play Path of Exile, and I love both companies. It's very confusing for me đ
cunning urchin
It's always important to keep in mind that the goal is "high dynamic range", and "broken" can be fine for that.
Especially if it's only "broken" in a context that has barely any of all the difficulty modifiers (i.e., pacts) turned on.
Excalibur allows for playstyles that don't really work with any other aspectâor nowhere near as well. So it's quite fun in that way.
hearty elbow
Big stick go bonk
cunning urchin
There was a reddit post not too long ago about just picking Divine Dash in Tartarus on 40 Heat and taking the Shackle for the rest of the runâwith Excalibur. That's an interesting strategy.
hearty elbow
That's one way to mitigate AP2 lol
hearty elbow
That's really clever. I gave up a while ago trying to do 40 with Excalibur with HL5, but if I can just port it into AP2, no prob
magic dagger
best control setup uses controller and keyboard
not controller and mouse, that's a no-go
we want both movement and aim to be 8-direction and clunky as possible
hushed ledge
nah I could see a hybrid setup
use a DDR pad mapped to kb buttons, a controller joystick for movement with a mixbox movement setup right next to it to quickly swap over, and a mouse for aiming
magic dagger
did you even read what I wrote
we don't want fluidity and ease
I'm telling you, no stick, no mouse
wasd abxy
cunning urchin
I think pressing two directions should just result in no input.
So you only have 4 directions.
magic dagger
ooh that's a good idea
hushed ledge
cursed
magic dagger
we need to get this over to the modding discord
hushed ledge
just use mouse movement
hearty elbow
hearty elbow
I've only seen someone use it once. I'm not sure if it was poetry in motion or someone just trying way too hard to be different
hushed ledge
hax$ uses a B0XX
hushed ledge
i just can't use joysticks, but if i could i'd probably use Controller+mouse
magic dagger
Only because I said it very wrong the first time
I said KB+controller
hearty elbow
cunning urchin
1 button can be Attack, 1 button can be Call.
Dash makes the game too easy anyway.
magic dagger
Is that a popular configuraiton?
I don't know, but I came up with it when I was doing a dash build on controller today and picked up trippy shot
controller aim for trippy shot sucks
hushed ledge
it makes sense
magic dagger
just map dash to LB and interact to LT
attack on lbm, cast on rbm, call on stick-click, special and summon on your thumb mouse buttons
hearty elbow
That would be so close to Wii Nunchaku
magic dagger
pretty similar lol
that's frightening
hushed ledge
except you don't have to deal with waving your arm around in the air
hearty elbow
You don't HAVE to, but you can
hushed ledge
sure but i can do that on kbm as well
hearty elbow
lmao
magic dagger
pick up the whole dang keyboard while gaming you won't
magic dagger
mount a monitor on your ceiling
play in bed
hearty elbow
Omg no gonna lie, Hades in bed or on road trips w/ Switch is gonna be dank
magic dagger
I demand Hades for the Game Boy Advance
hearty elbow
Lol, the good old days, when you could count the pixels
magic dagger
switch is the obvious 
move
hearty elbow
I wonder how obnoxious Nintendo will make recording runs though
hushed ledge
you'll probably have to buy a capture card
hearty elbow
I'm still (still) salty that I had to buy a USB-Ethernet adaptor to play barely passable online with Smash. And I STILL have to pay $5/month. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if you had to go through some weirdo hoops to record.
cunning urchin
Starting to get very off-topic lol.
hearty elbow
Pff, it's 3am EST, topics are overrated.
magic dagger
right, this belongs in #h1-victory-boasting along with all of my recorded failures at this week's challenge
a lamentation at how hard boasting about your victories will become on Switch
anyways, how do you Hades Spear
hearty elbow
Practicing will also be weird on the Switch without a file system.
cunning urchin
@magic dagger you just do swish swish stabby stab.
hearty elbow
So I'm probably just going to end up doing relaxing 32 heat, which is fine by me.
magic dagger
@cunning urchin Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me
I am become enlightened now.
cunning urchin
You're welcome.
hearty elbow
Hades is so lame without damage hammers. Even with 150% damage spear hits like a pool noodle
cunning urchin
You could search for posts from @mighty ermine. He often gives advice on Hades Aspect.
magic dagger
"mini spins are your best friend"
to apply damage debuff
hearty elbow
Exploding Launcher/Serrated Point, Mini Spins -> Profit
magic dagger
the thing is, my DPS stays down in the hundreds regardless
and Elysium enemies have thousands of health
Aphro attack with serrated point and I can't get kills
died to the timer at heroes the past five runs
hearty elbow
If you watch Tailesque's 50 with Hades, he SHREDS through enemies in Elysium. It's kind of disgusting.
Though I think he still finishes EM3 with -10ish seconds
Been a while, I could be grossly misremembering
hushed ledge
@fervent canyon which aspects do you think need buffs (some def do, just wondering which ones you feel like do)?
fervent canyon
Hmm for example I think aspect of guan yu is not nearly rewarding enough for the health hit
Aspect of Poseidon on stygius is only good if you get exit wounds and other cast boons that synergize well
hushed ledge
GY is (imo at least, haven't played it much since the nerfs) rather good
magic dagger
hmm
hushed ledge
Pos is just a flat cast damage upgrade
magic dagger
Guan yu is still OP
hushed ledge
It's also quite good
fervent canyon
Maybe I need to upgrade some of the aspects more lol
hearty elbow
The nerfs were minor. The biggest nerf to Charged Skewer was the release of Beowulf Charged Flight
fervent canyon
But 35 hp suckkkssss
magic dagger
50% bonus cast damage is amazing even without artemis boons
35 hp sucks, but on a good special build you don't take damage
fervent canyon
I find that the problem is with forced overtime the enemies move and attack so fast that retrieving the cast is super risky
Idk, I think a lot of the aspects work fine with heat off I guess
But trying to use them at the higher levels is super risky
And there are way safer options
For example aspect of chaos super forgiving
hushed ledge
GY is notable for being insanely safe imo
fervent canyon
Aspect of Arthur as well
hearty elbow
I think Zag sword, Zag spear, Achilles, Zeus, Beowulf non-special, all bows, and Lucifer need some love. Lucy mostly because of the the fact that they have no projectile control and their special is so awkward to use
hushed ledge
excal is less safe than GY by a lot imo
magic dagger
Zag sword
look at my name
magic dagger
I promise you zag sword gets a lot of love
fervent canyon
Really? I think that slow/defense field is super strong
hushed ledge
you have to put yourself at so much risk to do any damage
fervent canyon
I have won pretty much every run I have done with Arthur
magic dagger
from me, because first-run clears
hearty elbow
I'm not quoting myself since it was a wall of text but I explained my views on Excalibur above
fervent canyon
Idk maybe I need to upgrade them more and play them more, Iâve only done like 140 runs so far
This is just based off of what Iâve found most successful
hearty elbow
Arthur is easily one of the most powerful aspects at lower heats, I'll give you that
Nothing gold can stay
fervent canyon
I think if you can get the hammer upgrade for bigger field
It becomes much safer
And I go for it every time that I see it
hearty elbow
Yeah it's the best on Arthur, followed by Breaching Slash probably
Though I will maintain that an aspect designed for you to get hit will never scale as well as aspects that expect you to not get hit.
dire wedge
Breaching Slash Arthur against the power couple is such a godsend
cunning urchin
I really think all of the aspects are in a very good place.
fervent canyon
I guess I donât see that itâs designed for you to get hit, it just gives you incentive to stay in a more confined space
cunning urchin
At most they need some very minor tweaks.
fervent canyon
The nice thing about slow field is it slows projectiles too, so you can swat them out of the air
hearty elbow
@cunning urchin Right, the list I gave, none of them require overhauls, just some love or QoL here or there
hushed ledge
you can swat them at full speed with normal sword though
cunning urchin
Some aspects will always be better than others, so at some point you just end up either moving things back and forth or introducing power creep.
hearty elbow
E.g. you shouldn't need a PhD in Zeus Shield to be effective
fervent canyon
@hushed ledge itâs easier with the field, is my point
So even if youâre not moving around as much as with other aspects, ranged arenât as dangerous
cunning urchin
That's fine. Some people love weapons like Zeus Aspect. There's a lot of variety.
There are definitely people who want more complexity for that aspect.
hearty elbow
All the bows just need some damage moved around, or a couple of frames removed from their special animations, or some range, or faster growth rates on the range. I think Coronacht is pretty clearly the most out of whack compared to the others as of now.
fervent canyon
Btw the Beowulf aspect doesnât leave a cast in enemies right? It basically has no effect from one of the mirror upgrades?
hearty elbow
And all I play is Bow lol. I think all the bows are great. They're also all kind of awful.
fervent canyon
Or maybe Iâm missing something
hearty elbow
You are correct, none of the Flares lodge in enemies
cunning urchin
Yeah, Beowulf Aspect doesn't lodge casts.
Which is fine, it's quite unique in the way it works.
And I think it's a great weapon even without Charged Flight.
fervent canyon
I guess thatâs fine but I kind of wish it lodged a cast in one enemy randomly from the AOE
cunning urchin
Charged Flight is only really a requirement at extremely high heats.
I really wouldn't want it to lodge a cast.
hearty elbow
But why? What attack or special damage would you want to upgrade if you're the cast build
cunning urchin
At RI3, that would completely screw me over if the cast lodged.
hearty elbow
You're just losing cast damage that way
cunning urchin
Because I couldn't pick it back up for more Dragon Rushes.
magic dagger
the point of flares is that you can use them over and over again
fervent canyon
I use recharge cast when I use Beowulf
magic dagger
ah...
cunning urchin
That's a bad idea tbh. Infernal Soul will let you use Dragon Rush way more often.
The cast will just drop immediately after a Dragon Rush. So you can pick it up right away.
And if you have 3 casts, that means you get to pick up all 3 again immediately.
fervent canyon
Just out of curiosity which weapon/aspect has the fastest time, like most favored by speed runners?
cunning urchin
There's a bit of overlap because you need high DPS at high heats, but it's a very different sport, really.
hearty elbow
@fallow niche what's second? Malphon?
fallow niche
Uhhh second is one of a group of aspects, we haven't really taken anything to its absolute limits yet to find out exactly whats second but they're all generally close
And no fists aspect is remotely close
Fists are like very middle of the road for speed among all aspects
hearty elbow
Surprising. I'd assume since you could route to Merciful End in Tartarus that it would be smooth sailing after that
fallow niche
Second place options are Achilles Spear or Zag Rail imho, with possible contenders like Poseidon Sword, Guan Yu, and Zeus Shield
@hearty elbow There are faster ME builds
Zeus Shield can obliterate with ME
hearty elbow
Oh right
fallow niche
Zeus Shield starting with Explosive Return and getting ME in Tartarus by, say, Midboss would be insane lol
hearty elbow
Wait, I thought Explosive Return only worked when you regrabbed the shield with Zeus
hearty elbow
Oh, huh that's cool
fallow niche
Its a bizarre interaction but its very cool and strong
fervent canyon
I guess at this point Iâm wondering whether I should be looking up boon trees and getting opinions on which boons synergize well with which aspects? Up until now Iâve mostly just tried to pick whatever boon interests me without thinking too much about the strategy behind it, but now Iâm getting into 10-15 heat bounties and Iâve had like 5 failed runs in a row
fallow niche
Achilles Spear when fully optimized may be second place though, the aspect is kind of nuts and the skill ceiling is very very high
fervent canyon
Obviously thereâs prob some mistakes in my play, but I think I need to start thinking about what Iâm building towards?
hearty elbow
Solid heuristic is for good base damage aspects, go for some combo of Athena + Aphro + Arty, otherwise go for Zeus/Dio/Ares
fervent canyon
Duo boons specifically seem important to know how to get to
fallow niche
@fervent canyon Artemis on your main DPS when in doubt, but ME on fast hitting, close-ranged stuff is extremely reliable on like every aspect
Cast aspects are much more diverse in whats good for them
Poseidon Sword, Achilles Spear, and Beowulf have a ton of decent builds that are reliable for runs
Zag and Nem sword just want Artemis/Aphro/Athena
And the AAA comb works on virtually every aspect too
cunning urchin
Well, ideally you know all of the boon paths by heart.
fervent canyon
Do you guys go family favorite or the curse one btw? That seems like a huge damage bonus right?
I know some of them for sure
cunning urchin
So learning more about the boon paths is always beneficial.
fallow niche
Curse is far more powerful if you can make it work, but Family Favorite is honestly what makes Artemis overpowered
hearty elbow
It's all additive, but it should be relatively obvious as to which one you take on a run. If you start off with a status main boon, take PS, otherwise use FF
fallow niche
^
Priv Status when online is a very real damage boost
But you can't always have it online on some builds
cunning urchin
Also, knowing the differences between common, rare, epic for each boon, so that you can better gauge if a miniboss chamber with this particular good is worthwhile at this point in time etc.
fervent canyon
Priv status + Aphrodite seems super strong
hearty elbow
Particularly for damage statuses, which are only affected by global damage modifiers
Attack damage is a lot less affected by PS/FF
fallow niche
Aphro has the highest base damage for attack/special boons
Also Priv Status applies to everything, including calls and even your Summon so keep that in mind
hearty elbow
I still end up taking FF on Aphro attack builds, because I usually want Divine Dash or Hunter Dash
And Exposed is very unreliable to get
fervent canyon
Also hangover and doom are basically the same right? Other than a difference between the way they do damage?
fallow niche
Exposed is unreliable to get?
fallow niche
I feel like Athena never shows me anything BUT exposed 
fervent canyon
Like doom is chunks and hangover is just ticks
cunning urchin
Do you guys go family favorite or the curse one btw? That seems like a huge damage bonus right?
For me that's a non-factor because I basically run at least RI2 by default now. So FF/PS doesn't exist for me.
fallow niche
Hangover and Doom are far different effects
hearty elbow
Lol, thanks Nyaa, helpful đ
fallow niche
They're DoTs but they work very differently
cunning urchin
On the rare occasions I only do RI1, though, I don't think it's too much of a factor for me now that it matters which one I use.
fervent canyon
I guess maybe thatâs what I should ask as well haha, what heat pluses are considered the easiest to take?
fervent canyon
Iâve found jury summons not too bad
fallow niche
Also EM2 is faster than no EM at all
hearty elbow
I feel like Doom is more of a flat damage mod, versus the true DoT of Hangover. Obviously if you can apply it fast enough ala Malphon, it becomes a real DoT
fallow niche
I don't think I've played a single run without at least EM2 and Forced Overtime 2 in a while đ
cunning urchin
Pacts by themselves imo are all easy. It's more a combination of pacts that can be bad.
fallow niche
^^^
Anyway you'll want to do EM3 at some point, it makes T&M easier to fight on casual runs imho, and its a funny sight
fervent canyon
I think the worst one is the one that gives 2 choices, itâs the worst feeling when you see something you want crossed out
hearty elbow
FO1/2 is probably the hardest in isolation?
fervent canyon
Not actually that bad, but the psychological effect
fallow niche
Oh yeah never use Approval Process it sucks đ
cunning urchin
EM3 +FO2 can be brutal on Malphonâespecially once you mix in other pacts like CP.
fallow niche
@hearty elbow If you're not used to it, yeah. You just gotta get used to the new patterns
I can dodge Hades ez on FO2 on most aspects
Louts are terrifying though I will say lmao
hearty elbow
Right, but starting out, FO2 requires by far the most adjustment and relearning. No other pacts except for EM3 do that by themselves
fervent canyon
I def canât do that yet haha, he always catches me with a spin or those skull rings
fallow niche
Oh yeah definitely
FO2 of all pact options changes the way you play the most
That, and the timer
You learn to be efficient with the timer
It streamlines your play so much
hearty elbow
But Hades is great, and things matter differently at different points. There will come a time where AP2 will be the hardest pact, then CP1/2 or DC1/2 depending on build.
fervent canyon
I started playing FO2 when I first unlocked heat bounties because I saw it as like training, if I can beat enemies when they move way faster then the times I donât have it on will be easy
But so far Iâm still not quite used to it I think
fallow niche
It takes a bit for sure
But when you get the hang of it, you will emerge a way better player
fervent canyon
I spend Erebus rooms running in a circle haha
cunning urchin
There are also players who just can't cope with FO2. There's strategy that can help a lot, but ultimately making attacks and movement 40% faster will obviously test your reaction speed a lot more.
fallow niche
I think most people do đ
hearty elbow
TD2, despite being the bottleneck of most runs, is objectively the "easiest" pact, since it does nothing.
fallow niche
@cunning urchin I think unless you have more enemies on the pact or are bound by a timer then its mostly strategy. When you're forced to move quickly is when it comes more about reaction speed
Then after that, it becomes about premeditating what the mobs will do
At this point I can predict when a lout will jump at me every time
It comes with enough experience
hearty elbow
At this point I can predict when a lout will jump at me every time
@fallow niche I love the times when you've started an animation and you know 0.5 seconds later a Lout will pivot and punish you for it.
fallow niche
Mind you I have hundreds of hours in this game so it may take a lot of experience đ
@hearty elbow I don't even remind me 
cunning urchin
I guess. I always rely heavily on my reactions in every game I play, so I guess that's my strategy for dealing with FO2 lol.
fervent canyon
I feel like I have a handle on most of the enemies, itâs mainly the bow guys in Elysium, the satyrs/snake rocks in Styx, and the final boss that give me the most trouble
How do you guys avoid taking damage from those crystal beams in Styx? They eat up so much of my health
fallow niche
I have literally screamed "NO!" as I dashed right to where a Lout smacked me after dashing
Hahahaha
Its different for everyone! @cunning urchin
As long as people find one that works
cunning urchin
Works fine normally because I have very good reactions, but when I have a bad day or am really tired, I really get screwed over for relying so much on that lol.
hearty elbow
How do you guys avoid taking damage from those crystal beams in Styx? They eat up so much of my health
@fervent canyon Circle Strafe. Channel your inner Dark Souls
fallow niche
I did the 57 heat run while sick and I think it shows đ
cunning urchin
lol
fervent canyon
I do run in a circle but I feel like they still hit me when I go in to do damage
fallow niche
And yeah I just delete the snakestones asap in styx
I just run at them and yolo
đł
hearty elbow
You need to shred their armor asap, as any damage to their red health will stop the beams from happening.
fallow niche
That's why I focus them
cunning urchin
If the Snakestones don't have armor, I just make sure I keep stunning them before they can attack.
fervent canyon
Yeah the problem is sometimes I donât have enough damage to kill them before they get their attack off
fallow niche
When you get better at crafting builds you'll more reliable get them down
fervent canyon
Overall i donât find styx too bad, but those guys and the poison really get me
cunning urchin
That's generally a good strategy. Just stun everything.
fallow niche
LMAO yeah
hearty elbow
Also it's perfectly fine to get clipped by a frame or two of a Snakestone, but it's definitely a positional issue if you're circling around them and still getting hit for full
fallow niche
Satyrs spitting on me still gets me infected half the time I feel
Real hard to dodge reliably
I just have quick reaction time to get to the cure though
Also if you kill all enemies in a styx chamber the poison goes away
So if you're already about to kill them all, then just ignore the poison
#speedstrats
fervent canyon
Right, did notice that
I also usually go for boss room second
Because it can be fountain a lot of the time
hearty elbow
I have died before though because a secret extra big rat spawned while I was at the door expecting the poison to wear off and the door to open
Clearly I could have been paying any attention whatsoever but still lol
fallow niche
I go for both mini bosses first in Styx theyâre way easier with a good build than normal chambers
Normal chambers are just FILLED with enemies
hearty elbow
I also usually go for boss room second
@fervent canyon The higher in heat you go, the more likely you are to take boss rooms not just because of better rewards, but they do not scale nearly as hard off of pacts
fervent canyon
Interesting
hearty elbow
Hades is not a game of hard and fast answers. Everything works sometimes, and doesn't work other times
cunning urchin
Going back to what pacts are easiest to take, there are a lot of different opinions even from all of the people who do the highest heats. The one thing, I would say, that we all agree on is that you should always keep experimenting and trust in your own results and not blindly follow any "meta".
fallow niche
Definitely
hearty elbow
The meta around 50 is well defined because the constraint space is so specific. Up until 32 the world is your oyster, you do you.
cunning urchin
I wouldn't say it's well defined at all. 
fallow niche
57 is well defined đ
hearty elbow
Really? At the moment the meta is very much TD2, dodging all JS, CP, DC as much as possible, and take RI3 if you're a shield
cunning urchin
Why would you take HS at 57 smh.
fallow niche
cunning urchin
The meta is like . . . 4 or 5 runs lol. Something like that.
fervent canyon
So with keepsake swapping you can basically guarantee 3 gods right? I never really took advantage of that to force specific duos or other synergies
But now Iâm thinking I should start
hearty elbow
4 if you're feeling randy
And yes, the vast majority of runs you'll see have a god boon in Tartarus
cunning urchin
I only go for 2â4 gods in a run tbh.
hearty elbow
Typical setup is God keepsake in Tartarus/Asphodel then Acorn until the end
That setup will carry you for a very very long time
fallow niche
You can have a max of 4 different gods in a run besides Chaos, Hermes, and what you buy from shops
fervent canyon
Another thing I do that I donât know is good or bad is, I hate taking defensive boons. Like revenge damage, bonus health increase from rewards, stuff like that
fallow niche
When you get a boon from a god theyâre added to the pool of what can show up as chamber rewards until you get 4, then itâs just them
fervent canyon
I think maybe depending on the build I should be more open to those
fallow niche
People looked through the code
Shops are exempt from this rule
I wouldnât aim for more than 2-3 gods though for build consistency though
hearty elbow
Honestly, at your heat, Hearts aren't that big of a deal. Getting to 250-300 health before Hades is so easy when you start at 100 health and hearts only cost 125
cunning urchin
At low heats, I often just do god > coin purse > hourglass > acorn.
hearty elbow
The higher in heat you go though, Hearts are the highest priority
fervent canyon
Waaaait a second, coin purse gives you money in the middle of a run? I thought it said âstart withâ or something
fallow niche
Yeah it just gives you 150 gold the moment you equip it
cunning urchin
Just make sure you switch to the Hourglass before you spend at the Well in Elysium, and make sure you don't switch out of the Hourglass until after you've spent at the Well in the Temple of Styx.