I also think they're the best aspects in the game, probably.
#h1-builds-and-combat
cunning urchin
dry ember
Well then there is no disagreement here lol
cunning urchin
You really have to change how to play Beowulf when you have DC1 or DC2, even if you have Charged Flight.
dry ember
But I can't see Beowulf getting past DC
cunning urchin
Dragon Rush does a whole lot of work there.
dry ember
Yeah I was about to type about DC
cunning urchin
Well, I'll just say Beowulf would still be my first choice for any heat past current records.
dry ember
Well I'll be interested to see what you can conjure.up to get through DC. I tried some runs on Beo with even lower heat, DC on and the result is zzz
hearty elbow
What is your intent to get around DC2? Dio attack?
cunning urchin
Drunken Strike can do a lot of work, yeah.
hearty elbow
Or Zeus I guess
dry ember
That's asking for a lot with AP2 tbough. That's Charged Flight, Heartbreak Flourish, and Drunken Strike.
hearty elbow
Everything is asking for a lot at 50+ lol
dry ember
Well some more than others. Although this is getting to wrong channel territory lol
cunning urchin
Well I'll be interested to see what you can conjure.up to get through DC.
Tbh at the moment nothing really because school lol. Don't really get to play much at all.
pseudo stream
nyaanyaa, I'm confused by your Beowulf 52 heat, why haven't you capped your mirror?
cunning urchin
Huh?
I have RI3 on, so it doesn't matter.
And LC4, so the healing talent does nothing.
cunning urchin
Sure.
warped kernel
in which situations would blizzard shot (pos/dem) be useful?
unkempt pagoda
all of them
blizzard shot is disgustingly strong
the best case scenario would be poseidon sword + blizzard shot + infernal soul (or stygian soul with chaos grasps/fully loaded/+1 casts)
warped kernel
ah its a spam cast then?
unkempt pagoda
it's the main crux of a build, similar to hunting blades or ice wine
you build up to it and then it wins the run for you
random hull
Which blade do you use? From your description, I would guess Aspect of Poseidon?
In that case, building for backstabs is a solid strategy. Apply exposed with Athena Dash (or Special), use a strong attack (Artemis, Aphrodite), Deadly Reversal (Artemis/Athena duo) and the Shadow Slash hammer are ideal.
Works with other swords (Nemesis, Arthur) too.
As for casting builds, getting Parting Shot (Athena/Aphrodite) and using casts like Crush Shot for backstabs is fine, too.
cunning urchin
@turbid needle are you talking about a Bladerift build or a sword build?
barren otter
Completed all bounty levels on all weapons, yay, the only thing I have left to max out now is 3 more levels in fated authority.
main osprey
Nice!
hearty elbow
Lol, though unfortunately "3 more levels" iirc is more than an entire whole other mirror (excluding Authority obv)
pseudo stream
thanks for all your help guys, just skipped to 32 heat with Zag fists... Ares attack plus Athena dash seems okay :p
unkempt geyser
pokes through here, hmmm someone is saying ares legendary is "impossible" to get; ares has one of the most straightforward boon trees in the game and in my personal experience i've never really had an issue getting vicious cycle to pop up if that's what i want. has anyone actively had problems getting it when specifically looking for it or is this person a strange outlier
pseudo stream
He was my first completed god :P
Demeter seems like the hardest, at earliest 4th boon is... pretty deep (there might be others that deep that I stumbled onto)
But also, outliers are a thing when you have thousands of players
small stirrup
Nyaan no don provoke them...
https://i.imgur.com/VnDBM6z.png
cunning urchin
You tell this "Nyaan" person, whoever they are.
Hades wouldn't be the same without teleporting Flamewheels.
worn sand
is ares dash ever worthwhile?
when i do bladerift builds i always go with Cast or Call
cunning urchin
Y'all gonna buy all the Shifter Flamewheels plushies when the merchandise comes. Mark my words.
worn sand
i wont lie, if i could buy a plushie that can TELEPORT irl i would
spark lotus
@worn sand I like blade dash with melee builds on low heat, it can do nice DPS
you need to dash as quick as you can inside the enemy blob while clicking fast, therefore it's good with fists
small stirrup
I'd buy a bouldy plushie in a heartbeat
spark lotus
@small stirrup please feedback this, I'd too
small stirrup
On it
random hull
A bouldy plushie? Why not a paperweight that's an actual rock?
cunning urchin
Why not a lifesize Bouldy that's an actual rock?
small stirrup
Why not just a rock?
cunning urchin
If you push him uphill, you get to take him home for free.
small stirrup
Damn right
cunning urchin
Why make friends when you can make servants?
small stirrup
Who needs friends when you promise unending servitude to your metamorphic geode
spark lotus
@cunning urchin rock is not a good servant yknow
cunning urchin
But you are?
spark lotus
rude
small stirrup
cunning urchin
💗
random hull
In a sense, Sisyphus serves Bouldy.
small stirrup
In the end, don't we all?
cunning urchin
10/10 plot twist.
gleaming current
Bouldy was the final boss, after all
small stirrup
gleaming current
or maybe, his favor bar
spark lotus
Zag serves Bouldy, he provides some drinks for his servant Sisyphus
Hades serves bouldy, he provides him Sisyphus and makes Zag provide him drinks
empty gazelle
Bouldy plushie and a Dusa dog toy.
Athena is the legendary I can't seem to get to pop... I've had all the prereqs many times and it just doesn't happen.
Ares has just randomly happened several times. His call just becomes a boss blender.
pseudo stream
are chaos boons multiplicative or additive?
hearty elbow
multiplicative
but additive with each other
so if you have 2 attack chaos boons at 50%, it's (your damage) * (1 + 0.5 + 0.5)
pseudo stream
so if I have an Aphrodite boon at 90% and two chaos boons at 50%, it's 1.9*2?
hearty elbow
Yeah
pseudo stream
oh cool, that's the impression I was under but figured I should double check
random note: Charon while moving 48% slower in Tartarus is... not... yeah. don't do it.
hearty elbow
lol, that sounds about right
steel hazel
Are pom slices supposed to be able to hit Splitting Bolt?
turbid needle
No.
steel hazel
Welp, I'm gonna F10 and treasure this 56 damage Lv. 2 Splitting Bolt, then.
analog ether
Does volley from bow benefit from Chaos Ambush boon (increases damage from behind)?
unkempt pagoda
if it can backstab, then it can benefit from ambush
main osprey
It should
analog ether
Ok thanks, because I wasn't exactly sure if "striking" meant only your basic attack
main osprey
It's not 100% consistent
unkempt pagoda
"attack" should be a defined term, so you're good
valid locust
man, Poseidon + Crush Shot might be my new favorite thing to do with Aspect of Poseidon.
pseudo stream
ooof, poppers + greatshields + TD is bad news bears, I timed out on chamber 34 haha
(only died against T&A but still, ugh)
hearty elbow
yeeeep
reef galleon
Picked up poseidon-ares duo without reading what it is and almost got myself killed in what ensued afterwards since my only hope was relying on distancing 
ebon juniper
What is the Best build for the Butterfly keepsake
hearty elbow
probably not Malphon lol
Guan Yu Charged Skewer is probably the best I can think of. Big thicc base damage with infinite range
Beo Charged Flight too
but I consider those the same build lol
static jacinth
Pierced Butterfly is a universal multiplier right?
hearty elbow
Pretty sure it's additive, but I haven't tested it
static jacinth
I thought it was like chaos boons.
hearty elbow
I'm really sick of saying "pretty sure" in regards of damage types lol. SGG pls
waxen otter
pseudo stream
for Hades spear, which boons/hammers am I looking for?
gleaming current
Deadly/Divine strike, Quick/large spin
You won't have huge troubles with damage if you manage to pace the punishing sweeps on the enemies, so may as well focus on utility
hearty elbow
I think attack damage hammers are far more effective on Hades. Exploding Launcher and Serrated Point are pretty large multipliers
well. launcher isn't so much a multplier as it is giving you a usable special
mighty ermine
yeah, i will definitely second that serrated point and exploding launcher are going to be hades aspect's best hammers if you regularly apply the punishing sweep debuff
quick and massive spin are still good and fun on it, of course
but not all that needed once you get used to spin spacing and timing
pseudo stream
divine strike over.. aphrodite or demeter?
gleaming current
Well aphro strike isn't great with additive dmg from sweep. Demeter may work ig, but never was a fan of chill personally
divine in particular gives some safety during spins, worth noting
mighty ermine
divine strike is good for safety, utility, decent damage yeah. artemis deadly strike is particularly good damage-wise with serrated point as you'll get 3 chances per dash-strike to potentially crit
divine dash grants safety on spin comparable to strike if you make use of dash-spins regularly
demeter is actually pretty handy at high heat or even otherwise for the chill slows and potential for easy arctic blast activation. maybe not ideal, but if a high rarity frost strike shows up, i'd still take it
cunning urchin
Heartbreak Strike isn't any worse just because the bonus damage from Punishing Sweep is additive.
gleaming current
It isn't worse; it just pales compared to other options
cunning urchin
I don't agree at all.
pseudo stream
I mean it means crit is better
cunning urchin
Deadly Strike doesn't apply Weak.
Heartbreak Strike has way better pom and rarity scaling. It's not that straightforward.
pseudo stream
oh I didn't mean better than Aphrodite, I mean just better than it would have been otherwise
cunning urchin
Yeah, definitely. Deadly Strike and Flourish benefit more than the other boons from any additive bonus damage.
gleaming current
Well, I do believe Deadly Strike is better than Heartbreak in that particular scenario with that much additive damage. But it isn't to devalue Heartbreak's advantages: it still is one of the optimal choices if you are given a choice between it and poseidon/ares/etc.
cunning urchin
Heartbreak Strike also gives you easy access to Smoldering Air.
hearty elbow
There's also the on average upside of starting a run with Owl Pendant, which gives you 1 or 2 more shots at dank Athena swag
gleaming current
And deadly gives access to deadly reversal
cunning urchin
Deadly Strike might indeed be better, but it's not like Heartbreak Strike "pales in comparison." That's the language I have issues with.
gleaming current
would "becomes less appealing than usual in comparison" cut it for ya?
cunning urchin
That sounds a lot better.
gleaming current
That's what i meant, so good
green ember
Does using a God's keepsake at the start of a run ensure they will continue to offer boons through the run? or is it possible that'll be the only boon you get from them?
gleaming current
Well, it can't be only aphrodite that breaks all the hearts; we mere mortals need to hold some of the ground ourselves
Does using a God's keepsake at the start of a run ensure they will continue to offer boons through the run? or is it possible that'll be the only boon you get from them?
That may be the only boon, but that's rather unlikely
Most of the time you see a few more
hearty elbow
It guarantees the next boon is your keepsake's, but if you are for instance offered two gods in a room, and take the other one, then the next boon after that will still be the keepsake's
Up until the end of the biome
green ember
Got it thanks all
pseudo stream
It guarantees the next boon is your keepsake's, but if you are for instance offered two gods in a room, and take the other one, then the next boon after that will still be the keepsake's
@hearty elbow is this true? I once had Hermes apologize for taking someone's spot and then I never saw them again
cunning urchin
The god you force will be in the pool of available gods for the rest of the run. I'm very sure RNG is at least pseudo in the sense that it's extremely unlikely you don't see them again.
pseudo stream
also, oh man, TD1 is rough when you're bad with Hades spear, I don't know how to strip off the two shields
cunning urchin
But I don't know how it's coded.
gleaming current
Taking DC2 with hades spear is pretty bold move
hearty elbow
DC2 kind of necessitates Serrated Point
gleaming current
Byeah
hearty elbow
And even then it's brutal
cunning urchin
I just treat it as essentially guaranteed I'll see the god 3+ times after picking up their boon early in Tartarus.
mighty ermine
spin+dash-strike+special weaving takes care of DC2 fine with explosive launcher too, though
green ember
Ok good to know, would suck trying to build around something for the first God and then never see them again
mighty ermine
but serrated is definitely ideal for that particular pact option
pseudo stream
didn't get offered explosive launcher or Serrated Point, sadly... 32 heat may be too much to go through with bad luck on boons
I did get an ares cast, but had to sell it 😢
green ember
Lately I've just been going with Chaos Egg and taking it as it comes. Sometimes fun builds come up that I never would've thought of
mighty ermine
hades spear can still work without those hammers at 32, at least
hearty elbow
I think Chtonic Coin Purse is probably better on average for "go with the flow" runs but yeah
mighty ermine
they're mostly "needed" for heat much higher than that to push through certain roadblocks
cunning urchin
32-Heat discussion is probably better in #h1-high-heat-strategies.
pseudo stream
I'm not that great, though, I lost to time in chamber 34
ah, 32 for me seems like the edge between here and high heat, thanks
hearty elbow
Unless Egg acts as a God keepsake for Chaos gates too? I haven't used it much. It doesn't say that in the text but I could see it workign that way
pseudo stream
it doesn't
green ember
I don't think it does I'm just reckless sometimes and it helps lol purse would prob be better
pseudo stream
I think it'd be SUPER powerful (until very high heat) if it did, chaos boons are pretty rad
mighty ermine
yeah, unfortunately it doesn't guarantee chaos gates in the slightest
pseudo stream
Purse is what I used for the vast majority of my runs, until I started doing prophecies and now with +80% costs, it's just kinda bad
hearty elbow
It's not too bad if you combine CF2 with RI2. The 150 gold helps a whole lot
cunning urchin
I think Chthonic Coin Purse is one of the best keepsakes at any heat.
150 Obols can be worth as much as 270 if they let you buy 1 more boon.
cunning urchin
Probably not by itself. But it has amazing potential.
hearty elbow
It's fun with Achilles aspect
steady hatch
Coin purse is kinda highrolling for the chance you get offered the gods you want
cunning urchin
Hunting Blades + Vicious Cycle is pretty insane.
hearty elbow
Yeah, that duo boons bumps it from "fun" tier to degenerate
cunning urchin
Well, Coin Purse can also let you buy 1 more Touch of Styx etc. It's just very versatile.
steady hatch
At some point seeds are optimized so that you get the boon you want with just coin purse
cunning urchin
Or a Light of Ixion? Whatever those cost lol.
Coin Purse and then Hourglass in a later biome also has great synergy.
hearty elbow
80something?
steady hatch
90ish i think with CF2
gleaming current
Not more than 100 for sure
steady hatch
Could be like 88 idk
hearty elbow
lol, Charon's Price is Right
steady hatch
Hourglass is less attractive because there are so many options now imo
cunning urchin
Well, you can check the Well before you take it.
steady hatch
Yeah
hearty elbow
That seems wrong for some reason... but I guess i'll pay attention the next time I see it
cunning urchin
And you can buy from the Well in the next biome before you replace it.
steady hatch
I dont think it's 72 either
hearty elbow
I also remember it being 88
cunning urchin
88 would be 49 base cost.
Or 63 base cost with CF1.
So, I don't think you've ever seen 88 at the Well lol.
steady hatch
Actually it costs 99, just checked
hearty elbow
I guess edit the wiki
(also you won a free car @steady hatch)
(for reference, you can derive 88 from 55 * (1 + 0.8 - 0.2) from Charon's ticket)
Assuming it's additive
I just tried numbers, that happened to work
cunning urchin
I'm very sure except for Charged Hammers and crits, everything is additive.
Flourish boons from Master Chaos are definitely additive. I double-checked that recently.
Haven't found a Daedalus upgrade that's multiplicative and not "Charged", either.
steady hatch
Most people think chaos is multiplicative
magic dagger
I'm ready for the final Hades Weekly challenge
58 heat
cunning urchin
Well, Flourish definitely isn't additive.
mighty ermine
heart rend is multiplicative while clean kill is additive
gleaming current
I'm ready for the final Hades Weekly challenge
58 heat
Tbf if it asks to clear Tartarus only that's a reasonable weeklymaybe
cunning urchin
I know that @naive tusk told me that Heart Rend adds +50% base damage before the x3 from crits. I've never tested it, personally.
steady hatch
Damage modifiers are very inconsistent apparently
cunning urchin
I don't think they are tbh.
gleaming current
Well, it's not too inconsistent as most are additive
steady hatch
Very speculative at least
gleaming current
But there sure is a fair degree of confusion behind each
cunning urchin
There's a logic and consistency, but there's also a lot of confusion, yes.
mighty ermine
@hearty elbow has explained heart rend pretty well before with how it isn't plainly additive like other boons i.e. clean kill
Side note that Heart Rend is its own multplier as well. It's not additive with crit multiplier, it is a 1.5x total damage multiplier if you crit a weak enemy
you basically do 450% damage with crits
rather than 350% as with additive
cunning urchin
That sounds suspect tbh.
They also said Chaos boons are multiplicative (when the concensus was they're additive), and the very first variant I tested to confirm that they're multiplicative turned out to be additive.
mighty ermine
it's been this way for a long time
gleaming current
Heart Rend adds +50% base damage before the x3 from crits. I've never tested it, personally.
From that phrasing it almost feels like it's simply +50% dmg for weak crits
gleaming current
Can't really take it without a proof anymore, sry
There are lots of things people claim to be additive/multiplicative and they ended up being opposite
mighty ermine
i mean this isn't only recent conjecture
like i've said, it's been verified to work this way for a while now
gleaming current
🤷♀️
mighty ermine
63 base
189 base critical -> 300% damage
199 with clean kill (15%) -> 315.87% damage -> ~15% bonus
282 with heart rend -> 447.62% damage -> ~147% bonus
292 with heart rend + clean kill (15%) -> 463.49% damage ->~163% bonus
this was a test done by someone in the discord a while ago
cunning urchin
Twin Fists Uppercut
base: 30 + 30
Frost Flourish: +115%
Maimed Flourish: +78%
Enshrouded Flourish: +45%
damage: 101 + 101
30 * (1 + 1.15 + 0.78 + 0.45) = 101.4
gleaming current
63 base
189 base critical -> 300% damage
199 with clean kill (15%) -> 315.87% damage -> ~15% bonus
282 with heart rend -> 447.62% damage -> ~147% bonus
292 with heart rend + clean kill (15%) -> 463.49% damage ->~163% bonus
this doesn't show whether heart rend damage boost is multiplicative with other damage boosts or not, sadly
mighty ermine
it's multiplicative with crit damage itself, which is when it applies in the first place
which is all that matters really
hearty elbow
My statements are a composite of things I've tested and things people have said with some level of community consensus
gleaming current
Wellllll... regular damage is also multiplicative with crit itself lol
hearty elbow
I'm totally willing to convert any opinion I've said with evidence
mighty ermine
yes, and this doesn't change the fact that heart rend's modifier is multiplicative
which is what was being discussed
which things act additively or multiplicatively
hearty elbow
And I will spam the feedback thread every week with another plea for damage transparency until these conversations aren't necessary x_x
gleaming current
It has two layers of such interaction though, at least judging by the discussion itself
It may multiply with crit unlike clean kill, but does it multiply base dmg or sums up with other damage bonuses?
mighty ermine
i dunno, it seemed we were talking about the straightforward modifiers stated and put forth by certain boons
which, in heart rend's case, says +50%
which isn't additive, but acts as 1.5x for crits in general
pretty sure crit is calculated after additive damage bonuses btw
hearty elbow
Should it matter if it's multiplicative?
mighty ermine
i'm basically joking
because it seems so straightforward to me
like, heart rend acts multiplicatively
as a duo modifier
we can always re-test this, but i doubt the results will really fundamentally change
gleaming current
Just to put things in more understandable manner:
20 base, +100% damage bonus
Regular crit will be (20 + 20) x 3 = 120
If heart rend is simple 1.5x multiplier (applies to base damage): (20 x 1.5 + 30) x 3 = 180
If heart rend is additive 50% attack boost during crits: (20 + 30) x 3 = 150
mighty ermine
oh i see what you're getting at
yeah it's just really specifically a crit multiplier only, pretty sure
gleaming current
Ah well, time to boot up the game for fancies ig
cunning urchin
63 base
189 base critical
282 with heart rend
282 – 189 = 93 damage over base crit.
93 / 3 = 31
63 * 0.5 = 31.5
gleaming current
If gods will let me get heartrend in first place that is
hearty elbow
Test chaos while you're at it too pls
gleaming current
Sure thing
mighty ermine
lol
hearty elbow
So we can [temporarily] put this beast to rest
mighty ermine
the chaos one i have never known for sure
green ember
The highest heat is math
cunning urchin
Well, I shared my numbers for Flourish boons from Master Chaos. You'd only need to look at the others.
mighty ermine
i assumed it was additive until folks recently started referring to the first one as multiplicative, while extras are additive with the first
hearty elbow
Honestly, I probably should just respond with ¯_(ツ)_/¯ whenever people ask about damage math for stuff I haven't literally seen. The only consistent thing I've learned is that there are only exceptions
Lesson learned
mighty ermine
so chaos x god, chaos + chaos, is what seems to be the case i guess, in terms of text visual representation
cunning urchin
@mighty ermine like I just showed, the data you shared doesn't prove that Heart Rend is multiplicative because the numbers can be explained in this way:
Heart Rend adds +50% base damage before the x3 from crits.
mighty ermine
oh, i see what you're saying
cunning urchin
And like I showed for Flourish boons, it's just Chaos Flourish + any other Flourish.
mighty ermine
yeah, it's effectively the same, very true
cunning urchin
In this case it is roughly the same.
But if you have any +% on Attack or Special, the results should be different depending on whether it's multiplicative or additive.
mighty ermine
but at that point it's moot to argue whether it's truly additive before crits or a crit multiplier because we know how it behaves either way, since it's the same
for heart rend specifically, i mean
cunning urchin
It won't behave the same way, though.
mighty ermine
but from heart rend's ingame wording itself "bonus critical damage vs. weak", it seems like it's pretty decidedly affecting crits themselves
and not base damage before
hearty elbow
Woof, massive grain of salt for using in game wordings for damage math divination
mighty ermine
i mean, it would word it as +50% damage vs. weak if otherwise, wouldn't it
heart rend is themed around crit
cunning urchin
Honestly, I probably should just respond with ¯_(ツ)_/¯ whenever people ask about damage math for stuff I haven't literally seen.
That's basically what I do, and otherwise I just tell people "well, I've heard x from y, but I haven't verified it." Or at least I try to do that lol.
hearty elbow
If I've learned anything, the phrase "bonus damage" is literally a regex wildcard
mighty ermine
it's not the bonus damage part, though lmao
cunning urchin
The idea is that you only get the +50% base damage if you happen to crit.
mighty ermine
it specifically makes an effort to include crit
and i don't think that's for no reason?
no, it says critical damage
not base damage
cunning urchin
I know what it says lol.
mighty ermine
suggesting it's base is more of a stretch than what i'm suggesting
hearty elbow
I remember when I thought it was crazy that someone suggested that "Charged" was the most important word for damage math for those hammers lol. Mind blown.
mighty ermine
¯_(ツ)_/¯
hearty elbow
¯_(ツ)_/¯
mighty ermine
this whole discussion has gotten to the point of feeling a bit too aggressive either way
mighty ermine
yes
hearty elbow
It's mostly the effect of a bunch of blind people pointing at shadows on the wall with SGG puppeting damage numbers in front of us.
mighty ermine
pretty much
cunning urchin
Aggressive how?
green ember
Help I just got to Hades' secret third phase and he's asking me to do the math on my damage buffs
mighty ermine
feeling less collaborative towards finding the truth and more of an exercise in argument for the sake of argument
is the feeling i have been getting off of the discussion as it has gone on
that is my personal take from it
hearty elbow
Pretty sure we've determined that ¯_(ツ)_/¯ is the truth.
mighty ermine
feel free to disagree!
cunning urchin
No idea where you got that from. 
mighty ermine
i think you do but let's drop it
hearty elbow
Would it help if we made a google sheet sticky of every damage source type in the game with blanks to fill in as people find discrete examples of damage math?
steady hatch
Or just update the wiki with that information
hearty elbow
The wiki has no pages for individual hammers or boons unfortunately
But yeah, I guess we could make them lol
cunning urchin
What we did in MMORPGs for stuff like that is document all of our testing + at least some screenshots or videos.
gleaming current
Okay, I got blessed with rng
So:
Chaos special dmg is indeed additive
Heart Rend is 4.5x crits:
Guan Yu special deals 45
+77% Deadly Flourish and +53% Chaos special dmg for a total of 130% bonus damage
That made each hit 103.5, crits 311.5
If Heart Rend was additive to other bonuses the crit would become 378
Instead, in game it was 467
Clean kill was already investigated so thanks gods
hearty elbow
So is multiplicative Chaos just a rumor that's been spreading? (that I've also inadvertently helped a great deal to spread--in my defense I've heard it a lot before I started saying it all the time too). Or like with everything else, is it, "always additive except for Sometimesᵀᴹ"
cunning urchin
The wiki has this article, anyway, that can be edited by anyone who feels like doing that lol. https://hades.gamepedia.com/Damage_Calculation
main osprey
https://imgur.com/uIDBkZb
probably one of the coolest freezes I've seen
main osprey
jeez
copper vale
what's the big deal with hangover status ? I got told that dio call is supposed to be zeeee best ?
main osprey
Lots of DoT
magic dagger
it's like 15 damage per stack at common, iirc
and you usually get all 5 stacks
that's 150 damage per second, in addition to your attacks
And you can use it for full effect at 1/4 charge, so it's essentially spammable
copper vale
I just managed to beat ||Charon|| but
The credit card is just for this run I suppose ?
magic dagger
yeah, it expires when you perish
fallow niche
Dio and Zeus calls are the best for non-synergistic calls @copper vale
They're just raw damage
Zeus does more raw damage but Dio's helps apply privileged status so that is something of note
rare kayak
i like poseidon’s call too just because it does mega damage
aphro’s has use as well
esp vs theseus
or even hydra
copper vale
I gotta say I love the poseidon call
Helped a lot on my last run
Huge damage + 3 hours invincibility
that was my main defensive option
rare kayak
aphros is great just to get ur affairs in order
a quick call to stun hades so you can kill off the adds is nice
copper vale
I had crazy aoe with my other boons
https://i.imgur.com/ybCi3j3.png with the twin fists on the magnetic aspect
I finished the last boss with the full poseidon call
pseudo stream
How is curse of longing? Seems not great
unkempt pagoda
apparently it's really good lol
i've seen it absolutely destroy bosses, in seconds
magic dagger
Doom procs multiple times, for less damage each time
magic dagger
it refreshes to full damage when you reapply doom
unkempt pagoda
curse of longing isn't awful, but it isn't nearly as good as some other ares duos
great with privileged status, though
magic dagger
it's mostly good because it's permanent privileged status
unkempt pagoda
but that's about it
ig it could be good for leaving doom on enemies and then focusing on others, but eh
merciful end definitely outclasses it
pseudo stream
Merciful end, does it end the doom when you hit or do a free doom hit?
unkempt pagoda
it immediately procs a doom, so the doom ends on hit
pseudo stream
Huh. Is it good, then? Sounds hard to use properly, especially with privileged status
unkempt pagoda
you don't have to wait a second for the doom to proc, meaning you can constantly apply doom, proc it, then apply it again
if you have exposed, then the doom would benefit from privileged status
unkempt pagoda
it's quite strong with weapons that can attack quickly, like the fists (putting on divine dash and ares attack)
pseudo stream
You’d do a lot of dash attacks then?
unkempt pagoda
you can dash strike and immediately do doom + 50 dmg, for every strike
unkempt pagoda
😛
magic dagger
that's probably the most popular fist build I've seen here, besides "deflect on attack is my entire build" builds
cunning urchin
Highest Zag Aspect and Talos clears both have Merciful End.
It's just a natural result of Deflect on Attack or Dash being top priority for Malphon builds.
steady hatch
Highest demeter clear has a bunch of athena boons too
cunning urchin
My best 50-heat attempt with Zag Aspect had all her core boons lol.
void fjord
whats the conditions for getting a perfect clear message on the final screen. Is it not getting hit at all by the final boss even with acorn, or are there other requirements? cause there is a guy in #h1-victory-boasting whose acorn wasnt broken through, but still didnt get the perfect clear message
he did however not have full health
and has two missing death defiances
main osprey
It requires a full health bar
worn sand
even if you're missing death defiances?
main osprey
I don't think that matters
cunning urchin
Yeah, you just need full health.
barren otter
Do you guys ever get runs that just feel miserable? Like, you can't get any boons that you want? Just had a 15 heat with BP2 Chiron bow run where I couldn't get absolutely anything to fill the special boon core slot (was using authority and not persuasion), lost 2 death defiances in Tartarus to Savior Seeker witches and there weren't any kisses of styx in wells. Lost the run in Elysium because Savior Speeder Greatshields were just too overwhelming. As if the game is telling me to put on the shackles for the entire run.
that's without even having approval process on
cunning urchin
You get better at mitigating those things and at making nothing work somehow as you get more practice, experience, and knowledge.
But I've definitely had runs where I just get all of the worst rolls.
You'll also get runs where you get Merciful End in chamber 5, though.
There's probably something you could have done differently strategically to not run into that situation that you did.
Starting with how you fought those Witches.
barren otter
yeah, like not taking BP2
cunning urchin
That would be one lol. Changing your pacts can have a big impact on your run.
Also, if you can't mitigate the danger in a chamber like that to the point that you lose no DDs, maybe you can mitigate it to the point that you would only lose one defiance.
And if you do that for other difficult encounters and boss fights, Stubborn Defiance will let you keep going even if you mess up early and have to revive two times in Tartarus.
If you get better at cleaning at regular mobs, you take less damage, so you need less healing, so you have more money for boons and poms. And that way, you'll have a better chance of getting boons that you want.
When you understand boon trees better, you'll see build opportunities maybe that you missed this time because you were too focused on something very specific.
barren otter
yeah, I started to like using SD when maxing out bounties, it's a perfect balance between making normal rooms much more forgiving and making bosses a bit less forgiving, which is countered by using the acorn.
cunning urchin
Maybe you rerolled with Persuasion at a time when you shouldn't, or maybe you didn't reroll when you should have. All those small decisions end up having a big impact.
If you want a specific Attack boon, and you're skipping all the priority boons from other gods, then by the time you see a boon from the god you're looking for, there's a good chance they will just offer you Special, Dash, and Cast instead.
And then you're stuck picking that, and then you see them again, but now they offer you so many tier 2 boons because you have their tier 1 boon now . . .
Whereas if you'd filled your Special, your Cast, and your Dash with boons from other gods, then when you see the god you want after that and don't have any of their boons yet, you're essentially guaranteed to get their Attack boon because it's a priority slot and the other priority slots are already taken.
barren otter
on that run literally nothing was offered for the special slot. The only things I did get for special were Chaos and Hermes (12% special speed), but that wasn't enough.
The only core slot I had filled was Artemis' attack lv2 rare, I had Aphro offer the cast, but I didn't take it, that's about it, don't recall seeing anything else being offered for any other core slots.
cunning urchin
If you want Hunter Dash from Lady Artemis for bow in Asphodel, and you fill all your core slots except Dash before you get there with boons from other gods and have no other boons from her, 100% she will offer you Hunter Dash, Pressure Points, and an exchange for any of your other core boons—because there's literally nothing else she could offer you. Those are her only available tier 1 boons. I guess there's a tiny chance that she offers 2 exchanges? But if you have a reroll at all, it's just guaranteed, really.
So, if you think of it like that for any other slots or boons that are important, this kind of stuff is how you get there. That's why it can sometimes be important to take a core boon that doesn't help you directly over some tier 2 boon that would help you directly. Just because filling that core slot will help you get something that's more crucial to your strategy.
Also, sometimes you see the god you want, and they don't offer you the tier 1 boon you want, but they offer two tier 1 boons that open up their tier 2 boon pool and 1 boon that does not open any tier 2 boons.
And you pick up the tier 1 boon that does open the tier 2 boon pool because you think, well, at least this will help me a little bit until I get that other tier 1 boon you want.
But you just made it so much harder to get that tier 1 boon you really want because their boon pool just became so much larger.
Whereas if you picked that other boon that didn't open any t2 pool, you'd actually increase your chances of getting that one particular boon that you want from them.
I didn't see your run, so maybe you were just extremely unlucky in some way, but I think that kind of strategizing can just really help you get the things that you want more consistently.
barren otter
this is what I had on the run
https://imgur.com/t02VUPJ
cunning urchin
Hmm. Were you always able to buy all the boons in any shops?
barren otter
I bought a couple boons, don't remember which.
cunning urchin
Obol troves can help with that, Chthonic Coin Purse in Asphodel or Tartarus can help, and of course just spending your money efficiently.
Just some more small things to help you get the boons you want.
Sometimes it's a good idea to skip a Darkness or Key chamber to go for the 20 obols from a Gemstone chamber instead if that pushes you over the edge to be able to afford one more boon.
void fjord
Ambiguity from Bouldy does nothing rite? just to confirm
random hull
Yes.
lunar salmon
TIL you can beam while dashing with Lucifer
barren otter
Yeah and it's a good way to ramp up the damage
lunar salmon
Because of that I got my casual pb, nice
fluid stag
what's the actual damage output of curse of longing if you have consistent way to apply doom? isn't it just objectively worse than manually reapplying the doom, or am I missing something
random hull
It is at least equal. If you reapply doom, it will go back to full strength, and then start to do its thing again. Curse of Longing also has the added effect of maintaining Privileged Status.
fluid stag
ah ok that's reassuring
wasn't sure if it was stuck in that reduced damage state until it finished or w/e
ty
hearty elbow
It's still not like... amazing though. One type of usage would be something like Nemesis with Aphro attack and Ares special
fluid stag
yeah it definitely feels like one of the weakest duos if not the weakest
aside from aphro posiedon maybe
idk
hearty elbow
Lightning Rod
dem's fighting words with some people, but I would find it pretty difficult to compile an argument that it isn't a garbage fire
fluid stag
it's not great
I like it if I can stack them around to get jolted around the field
but at that point I can usually do that by just attacking anyway so
hearty elbow
I guess you could make the argument that, unlike a good boon that you want to use, Lightning Rod is worth 400 gold when you sell it lol
fluid stag
solid argument tbh
hearty elbow
It feels bad to do that for something like Unshakable Mettle, which definitely has utility (though you never go for it intentionally obv)
Hmm, I might like Stubborn Roots less than Lightning Rod. It's close lol
I don't know if I was doing something wrong or what, but I got Roots for the first time on Stubborn Defiance run a bit ago and noticed that it did not tick if I wasn't in combat
void fjord
stubborn roots is great, only on low heat heat runs
otherwuse you just tend to run out of time
void fjord
condembrce is good for a melee build
it can melt ppl really good
cause most of the time ur also doing backstab dmg
since ppl are facing u and ur opposite the cast
hearty elbow
I've seen people try it on Talos before and half the time when you're dashing around the converging beams just miss or hit walls
void fjord
it might take time to get used to
hearty elbow
Yeah it's possible, like with Zeus aspect
So yeah, my answer is still Lightning Rod lol
void fjord
it was really useful however in 2nd phase of the 2nd phase of the final boss whenever he did his ring of lasers move
yea i dislike lightining rod
gleaming current
That's a pun to be punished for
void fjord
my fav duos have to be the dio and pos duo, especially early on, and curse of vengance
lol yea
hearty elbow
Vengeful Mood is so fun. I just wish it was easier to get before Styx
Every time I try it I finish the build in late Elysium or in room 1 styx
void fjord
lol unlucky
hearty elbow
So I'm just going through 80% of the game with poop boons and base damage
void fjord
if u know exactly what ur doing and with a little bit of luck u can get it consistentle before lernie
whats ur fav weapon plus build for that weapon
void fjord
greater consecretion is needed
hearty elbow
Obv I only go aphro attack if I see her since I need 2 keepsakes for Mood
hearty elbow
I have not yet seen it happen but I have heard rumor that Curse of Vengeance + Heaven's Vengeance is sufficient to unlock the duo?
gleaming current
You say that and i use special like 3 times for the whole run with arthur 
gleaming current
Well personally I don't have the time to finish special
hearty elbow
Yeah, at high heat Excalibur is so painful without Greater Consecration. Things hurt bad 😦
gleaming current
for it to work on slowdown in first place
hearty elbow
It fills the screen though so it barely matters where you put it
void fjord
eh anyways most of the time when i dont have time and want to use the sword i just nemesis aspect
yep which is truly a pog moment
noble bolt
just had a picture perfect Dio/Aphrodite/Zeus run with the Bow, Chiron Aspect
void fjord
nice thats an optimal build for dio/aphro on the bow, especially chiron aspect
charred pilot
Getting the Mirage Shot and Blizzard Shot along with Poseidon's Rupture + cast was absolutely disgusting amount of damage.
worn sand
Of the poseidon knockback buff boons, which ones are the strongest? I find it hard to evaluate
Rupture / flat dmg on knocking into walls / %dmg on knocking into walls
narrow rampart
honestly depends on which biome you're at
Poseidon knockback boons really mostly shine in Tartarus and Styx
in those biomes, I'd say breaking wave is the best
extra damage + aoe
narrow rampart
Oh yeah rupture is definitely great if you don't have a way to apply priv status yet
I don't care for it much if I'm running family favourites tho
void fjord
Melee builds for a bow, a true testament to how broken the game can be
turbid heart
do you guys prefer Long Knuckle or Rolling Knuckle?
rare kayak
long
unless i have armor breaker hammer or artemis
long helps with my spacing esp. in elysium with how the champions move
the damage bonus doesnt hurt either
eternal quartz
About Hades Weekly Challenge #10 - instead of one week it will be on for 2 weeks in total (so one more week) - roughly twice as much heat deserves twice as much time 😉 Also, after that, we're taking a break from making the challenges so we can come up with new ideas and also - rest.
main osprey
Sounds good :3
barren otter
Since you can get multiple of the same boons from Chaos, I wonder if it's possible to get more than one death defiance from them
pseudo stream
does Zeus attack also damage the target of the attack
toxic kite
Hey, what eurydice's bonus is the best for you guys ?
main osprey
Depends on my current boons
unkempt pagoda
there's no objectively best one, it depends on what you walk in with
main osprey
If I have a smaller number, that I like, I might go for the Ambrosia (+ rarity to 2 current boons). If I have a bunch that I'm using, I'll go for the Pom (+ level to 4 current). If I don't have much, or if I'm trying to get better tier 2 boons/duos/legendaries, I'll go for Nectar (+ rarity to 3 next boons)
hearty elbow
"usually" you want to set up your boons so you can leverage the Ambrosia Delight
(Swan, you have nectar/ambrosia backwards)
hearty elbow
lmao
void fjord
more often than not its usually ambrosia delifht since i love to walk in there with only one or two core boons
unkempt pagoda
note that levels (poms) have diminishing returns, so a rarity boost will often have a greater impact on a boon that already has a few levels (3-5ish)
hearty elbow
They are approximately desirable in their order they're presented, with each subsequent one being a consolation prize for not being able to appropriately use the previous
main osprey
Pretty much
void fjord
does the poseidon/aphro duo affevt eurydices bonus?
main osprey
Yes!
void fjord
like give +2 to all
main osprey
It's beautiful
void fjord
thats OP af then
main osprey
Yup
hearty elbow
Guaranteed heroics neat
pseudo stream
Omg this whole time!! Whoops. Thanks
main osprey
That was my final boss perma-charm build
unkempt pagoda
speaking of eurydice, did they make it so her rewards are locked from when you walk into the chamber? tried to rng manip her rewards lately but it never gives me different ones
main osprey
Hmm, haven't tried
void fjord
no clue
unkempt pagoda
this update i noticed that, no matter how much i damaged the pillars, the ambrosia would still give me the same boons
it's a fair change, but
toxic kite
I see, thanks a lot for your answers guys :
main osprey
Sure thing o7 Best of luck!
pseudo stream
what are people's favourite builds for the aspect of poseidon?
unkempt pagoda
lightning phalanx is one of my favorites
while not as fun, i only ever go for a crystal beam build on poseidon sword (need to try it on achilles one day)
true shot is an easy lead to exit wounds (and fully loaded)
unkempt pagoda
anywhere, preferably aid or dash
pseudo stream
I do love phalanx shot, though, and lightning phalanx seems even more rad
is his dash any good? I see it miss a lot, but am usually panicking mid fight and would never notice it hit
unkempt pagoda
it's okay, but it goes off more than the special or attack would
there's a fun interaction with lightning reflexes and double strike, potentially having up to 4 strikes per dash
pseudo stream
that's the near miss lightning? ilove that thing, near misses happen a loooot
unkempt pagoda
yes
gleaming current
A bit theoretical question: since casts get the least damage boosts over the course of run, would stuff like Pierced Butterfly be of great help? Thought about running some poseidon builds too
turbid needle
Yes.
unkempt pagoda
possibly
turbid needle
Casts never work on percent modifiers, so any bonuses to them are multipliers.
unkempt pagoda
and since they're long range, they're safer (unless you're running crush shot)
turbid needle
I cannot get a decent Crush Shot/Blown Kiss run.
gleaming current
crush shot
I have yet to get blown kiss on main file, heh
turbid needle
With Authority Aphrodite just will not give me Blown Kiss no matter how many of her boons I get.
unkempt pagoda
blown kiss barely shows up for me lol
turbid needle
With Persuasion she shows up once from the Keepsake spawn and then never again.
gleaming current
Guess she just really doesn't want to give away the kisses
unkempt pagoda
i do wonder if a crystal clarity or cold embrace build on achilles would be better than pos sword
but i just... don't like using achilles lol
gleaming current
Technically it does perform better
buuuut yeah achilles spear is too much micromanagement
serene phoenix
Rare Curse of Agony, Rare Divine Dash, Rare Crystal Beam, Epic Dire Misfortune
Merciful End
what should I take from Eurydice
try to get Curse to epic?
or go for the pom
gleaming current
50% chance to hit it, so maybe worth the risk
Pom likely aint gonna do much better
serene phoenix
also can you get duos on rerolls?
maybe this question sounds dumb but I've never gotten one that way so
turbid needle
With Fated Persuasion? Yes.
serene phoenix
ok ty
hearty elbow
Lightning Rod's true power is coming back on rerolls
pseudo stream
Huh?ightmimg rod is the “your floating stones deal damage”? Is it any good? Heh
static jacinth
The matter is highly debated.
main osprey
TIL that Zag's spear throw can trigger traps
dry ember
TIL also
As for Lighting Rod, it's... controversial. But in my opinion, it's 420 Obols.
gray moon
is there a good build for the Laser Gun?
how does Zeus attack boon work with it exactly?
main osprey
A fun one (not the best, but very fun) is the Sea Storm Super Soaker (Tempest Strike, Thunder Flourish, Sea Storm Duo, Infinite Laser hammer). Don't remember exactly how Zeus attack works with it, but Zeus attack + Support Fire is good
gray moon
sounds fun, so lets try it
main osprey
ooh!
another fun one is literally anything with Hazard Bomb
:3
if you want the max craziness, go for Hazard Bomb, Thunder Flourish, and a dash that does immediate damage
void fjord
hey does stubborn defiance allow athena's defiance to be added to it, like you get extra defiances?
main osprey
yup
void fjord
hmm recent update?
main osprey
if you have expended your SD, and you get an Athena DD, you'll get a DD slot
nope
that's been in for a while afaik
void fjord
ohh thats pog
main osprey
you need to have expended you SD though to get the DD
void fjord
didnt know
that
no wonder i was confused in the high heat run submitted in #self-promotion
worn sand
Does that bonus athena DD get used up before or after your regular Stubborn Defiance?
main osprey
Not sure
small stirrup
If I'm not mistaken its before the stubborn defiance, but this is a memory before blood price so I'm probably wrong.
barren otter
You spend your SD, pick up a DD from Athena, then you get your SD back in the next room. Athena's DD is on the left, so it's used up after you use up your SD.
sick gorge
So playing around is Athena's attack boon supposed to only deflect from the tip of Exagryph with lucifer aspect?
sick gorge
😛 kinda lame was hoping to be able to just wave it around to deflect shots
main osprey
Yup
main osprey
(from #hades-feedback )
i finally cleared the game with guan yu with 5 heat! it's doable but super hard, but rewarding!! love the fire crackers that goes with it, and probably what led me to use it all the time, you can't rely on the spin.
I'd have to strongly disagree with that last part lol, I do agree that the special is super fun :3
small stirrup
HOW DARE THEY
THE ALMIGHTY SPIN IS EASILY THE BEST THING ABOUT GY
THEY DO NOT SIMPLY UNDERSTAND THE POWER BEHIND IT
main osprey
Do you mean "they simply do not understand"? :3
I guess yours is still correct, just reads a bit odd
^.^
Also you upvoted it?
small stirrup
I upvoted it looking at the first part lol, I was like "Aw they used GY :D"
small stirrup
I mean its just honest feedback, I'm not one to force the almighty on spin on everyone
main osprey
Yee
small stirrup
I can certainly try however
main osprey
XD
small stirrup
Hopefully I didn't scare them out of it
main osprey
Lol
reef galleon
every time I use Guan Yu I forget about the special like immediately
main osprey
I've done runs with each, both can be good
small stirrup
I remember doing a AP2 run with GY and it turned out pretty well
So it is pretty flexible
hearty elbow
I will say that with FO2 you kind of live or die by the hammers if you go spin. And if you go TDx, spin gets a lot more tenuous as well. I think my first 32 GY attempt I did Athena spin with Massive Spin (no quick spin to be fair) and it was the first time I failed to hit the TD1 timer.
narrow rampart
going with spin on guan yu is definitely more hammer-reliant than going with special
reef galleon
I wish more weapons had aspects that require you to hold the button instead of mashing it
now its just fists and lucifer on the Rail
hearty elbow
going with spin on guan yu is definitely more hammer-reliant than going with special
@narrow rampart Eh I wouldn't say that lol. Charged Skewer makes your base damage 135 and gives you (ironically) a faster base special. I definitely would not consider a special run without it.
gleaming current
Well, I guess it's more in a key of "it is easier to finish special run with whatever hammers than to do the same with spins"
Because you quite need at least Quick or Massive spin (or exclusive one on the emergency case). Special can work without any, even though charged is definitely a gamechanger
narrow rampart
On a normal run, you get offered two hammers
You only need to have one of them offer Charged Skewer to ensure that your Guan Yu special run goes as smoothly as it can
not the case for a spin-focused run
That's what I meant when I made the above comparison
green ember
Is Piercing Wave (blade hammer that sends out a shockwave on attack) affected by attack dmg buffs? Haven't gotten a chance to test it
hearty elbow
Nope, only global damage mods
random hull
Which should see a change, truth be told.
green ember
Dang would've been cool with Flurry Slash
random hull
The wave would be great for status application.
hearty elbow
Lol, a 25 ranged base damage increase would just be better than the sword itself
Which isn't a bad thing I guess. Sword pretty poop
static jacinth
Might be a bit much though.
+25 damage is pretty good.
If the sword is poop, buff the sword, not a particular hammer.
hearty elbow
@green ember It does work with Flurry Slash though
random hull
Flurry Slash + Piercing Wave is really entertaining to watch
hearty elbow
I might be misunderstanding what you meant. Piercing Wave's damage is only affected by global damage mods. It will proc whenever you do an attack though
(I don't remember if it works on dash strikes)
green ember
Yea i think we're on the same page but 25 base dmg isn't so great towards the end, even with Flurry Slash high rate of fire. But making it scale with attack dmg buffs would be too much as well
magic dagger
Which isn't a bad thing I guess. Sword pretty poop
@hearty elbow Heretic
Any weapon that lets you clear on the first run is obviously superior to anything that doesn't
hearty elbow
So... Zag aspect is the best aspect then?
steady hatch
they even use it for the fresh file speedrun...
hearty elbow
Pretty sure they do it on purpose to make your first weapon/blood unlock guaranteed to feel good
random hull
That means it is [obscure pun incoming] a FOIL.
green ember
I like that it even though it's not super strong it has lots of unique hammers for build variety. Keeps it fresh
magic dagger
random hull
Nice
magic dagger
Pretty sure they do it on purpose to make your first weapon/blood unlock guaranteed to feel good
@hearty elbow yeah, that move speed/dash distance increase did feel pretty good
hearty elbow
I feel like it used to be even worse than it is now lol. One of those was added recently, right?
magic dagger
I only got here in the nighty night update, sooo
I haven't seen zag sword change, no
hearty elbow
Yeah, looks like Dash distance was added in Long Winter
random hull
Dang, you beat me to the punch.
green ember
Was the shield's zagreus aspect recently changed? Wiki shows it as giving dmg reduction. Think it's more attack dmg or something now
hearty elbow
Yeah it was changed in Blood Price to have base 40 (at max rank) attack damage. Bull Rush unaffected
green ember
Hmm sounds like a good buff but kinda boring compared to sword and fists zag aspects
hearty elbow
Which makes it feel like what Stygius Zag aspect probably should play like lol.
It was warranted, there were no attack-based shield aspects
steady hatch
i just wish it affected bull rush too
green ember
That makes sense. Does Beowulf attack slower tho? It's also 40 dmg
hearty elbow
Oh me too lol
Yeah, def slower
When i read patch notes for the first time I definitely slapped on Poseidon's trinket and tried to go wall slams. Sadness ensued
green ember
Wall slams are so situational but feel great when they work. Poseidon fists in Styx is the best
hearty elbow
Lol, yeah, unfortunately doesn't make up for how tragic Tempest Strike is everywhere else x_x
I feel like SGG anticipated knockback to be a broken mechanic, since they gave Poseidon near Artemis level of boon scaling
green ember
Yea might be true. Maybe making the +boss dmg boon baseline would help
static jacinth
Doesn't Poseidon have one of the better base attack mods?
static jacinth
3rd place I feel like.
hearty elbow
Aphro > Demeter = Athena > Posiedon > Artemis
magic dagger
Poseidon has a good special increase
hearty elbow
for attack
static jacinth
2nd place in flourishes.
hearty elbow
Yeah
In SGG's defense, Breaking Wave in Styx feels about as broken as Merciful End everywhere else.
WIth something like Malphon
Or Rail's Aspect of Super Soaker
magic dagger
in some tunnels it doesn't even matter what weapon you have because of the wallbounce chain reactions
literally one attack to kill everyone in the room
green ember
Merciful End with Divine Dash is so much fun lol
magic dagger
on zag sword with all common boons, merciful end with divine dash is 140 damage per dash-strike
green ember
Jeez and goes up like crazy with Impending Doom
hearty elbow
With epic divine dash though, woof, that's like 144
gleaming current
Just keep leveling up divine dash to go into 150+ territory, woo
magic dagger
epic impending doom makes it 240 damage
hearty elbow
If you're into that kind of thing
"damage"
pff
That's not why I play Zag Stygius. Zoom zoom
small stirrup
Truck Stygius goes boom boom
magic dagger
yeah, we all know damage is a crutch
gleaming current
Zag blade's only relevant build is hermes speed boons, Rush Delivery, and Charon's hourglass for ignited ichor
speeeeeeeeed
magic dagger
rush delivery is nice, but the speed and dash distance actually can change the way you play
you don't need to turn it into bonus damage for the sword to be good
dodging is way easier
approaching enemies is easier
hearty elbow
Asphodel turns into an adventure
gleaming current
rush delivery is nice, but the speed and dash distance actually can change the way you play
to be dead serious, most of the time such changes only ruin the playstyle because you aren't used to the new speeds and moves
even if they are intended to be a positive
hearty elbow
Lol, the spacing to dash into the poison cure between two spinning blade traps is also pretty easy to miss 😛
green ember
That's why I don't like Demeter. I don't adapt to the final bosses new (slower) speed and end up getting hit more often
10 stack Demeter explosion on Chiron is great tho
hearty elbow
I don't like Demeter because she's the slayer of runs with UC on lol
And Mistral Dish's biggest flaw is that it isn't Divine Dash, otherwise it does great damage and the utility is awesome too
green ember
Why is she bad on UC?
gleaming current
Because a lot of her boons can't be sold or make you feel bad for selling others
hearty elbow
gleaming current
So you may be trapped in selling a single core boon at tartarus exit, for example
magic dagger
brutal
imagine not having boons in asphodel because you got offered nourished soul and rare crop
it happens so dang often
green ember
Oof
hearty elbow
To be fair that run wasn't "dead," but I had to choose between Divine Strike on Nemesis or the epic DIo call I lucked into. I think I would have been less salty if the run did just end
gleaming current
Don't you love your heroic nourished soul on LC4 tho? :o
cunning urchin
And Mistral Dash's biggest flaw is that it isn't Divine Dash
And that's why it gets sold.
hearty elbow
Lol, yeah. Kind of a shame though, I legit love that dash
green ember
Do you think they'll add a few more boons/hammer to the existing gods/weapons? There's already a great amount but more wouldn't hurt as long as the new stuff is useful and doesn't dilute the loot pool
hearty elbow
Yeah they're pretty consistent with tweaking the hammer pool at least
I would definitely prefer replacements or reworks over additions but yeah
cunning urchin
You can just check the road map on the title screen for what they've planned for 1.0.
green ember
Gotcha looks like there's a good chance they will considering it's all around finishing touches. Only joined after Blood Price so don't have a great reference with what each update brings but from BP patch notes looks they brought new hammers and boons then too
void fjord
Hey does Strong Fountain healing properties work for LC4?
main osprey
Dio's boon?
void fjord
yea
main osprey
Don't think so
It does weird things with LC3 and below, but I don't think it bypasses LC4
void fjord
I'll try to test it. Thanks for the info anyways :)
main osprey
Sure thing!
pseudo stream
how does Strong Fountain work with LC2, for example? say you're somehow at 50/100 life, do you heal to 100 or 75?
hearty elbow
They really do need to overhaul tooltips with LCx lol
magic dagger
how do you deal with middle management power couple, with TD and a bad build?
hearty elbow
If you're running into TD1/2 issues in Asphodel, that is the bigger question.
Power couple is a very mechanically intensive fight on FO2. There really isn't much cheese around it (other than a well timed/spaced Companion to catch them both). I'd recommend creating a save and grinding out a baseline knowledge of Skullcrusher's timings and ranges
A bad build will just make it take longer. Deflect also helps immensely, otherwise you will have to carefully circle around the Megagorgon, which isn't always possible with terrain/teleports
And don't feel too bad lol, this still happens to me ALL THE TIME: https://imgur.com/a/S1g68oK
magic dagger
TD just means I can't sit around dodging attacks most of the time
mighty ermine
I find that it's usually easier to deal with skullcrusher if you purposefully bait out the slams at opportune times and then dodge the shockwave, instead of trying to stay away from the shadow as long as possible until skullcrusher decides the time himself or he catches up with you at an especially bad time
I pretty much always try to take out the megagorgon first, but I know others have the opposite preference too
void fjord
With MM i have found it much easier to kill the skullcrusher first and then the megagorgon. Baiting and knowing when the wave is coming makes life much easier than hoping to quickly react in time.
Also i feel its considerably easier dodging the megagorgons projectiles
As compared to the slam attack
mighty ermine
I find the opposite easier with MM given that you can manipulate skullcrusher's movement and behavior while going after megagorgon, while in the other case you're having to avoid a randomly teleporting head shooting homing projectiles while focusing something else
So I keep my eyes more focused on the miniboss with considerably less predictable behavior, and keep the one with a pretty consistent pattern in my peripheral attention
void fjord
Hmm, well each one has their iwn playing styles i guess
mighty ermine
Also kind of helps that megagorgon is pretty much constantly available to hit somewhere at all times barring the split moment that it teleports, as opposed to skullcrusher who is totally immune and potentially wasting time while in the air trying to land on something
But yeah, either approach is fine honestly
dry ember
I want 1.0 and I want it now
narrow rampart
Bow used to be my favourite weapon
Until Rama came along 
Friendship ended with Choronact
Now Malphon is my best friend
so ye 4th Malphon aspect hype
gleaming current
inb4 4th malphon makes you jump to hestia
narrow rampart
;_;7
thin hull
small stirrup
Never question the power of the beyblade
barren otter
Lv1 Guan Yu with High Confidence
pseudo lark
Tips for Hades Spear build? Compared to Guan Yu, it just doesn't feel like dealing enough damage. Currently stuck with the Weekly Challenge (JS1, CP1, DC1) and it's surprisingly overwhelming.
barren otter
Serrated Point (dash-strike hits 3 times, but -20% dash distance) hammer upgrade has been very useful for the challenge.
mighty ermine
Serrated Point and Exploding Launcher are easy ways to get your damage going if you get even a decent attack or special boon respectively. Though you will have to regularly apply the punishing sweep debuff. Otherwise, yes, it's going to be underwhelming
pseudo lark
Good. Now to get the decent boon and Hammer with AP and UC
random hull
Best I could do with the challenge was getting to second phase with Triple Flurry Jab and Divine Strike. I regret not surviving that one.
formal basin
Does the Spear Hammer Vicious Skewer, +50% damage to special, +50% crit chance on retrieval, actually work that way? Because I had that and Artemis boon, which should give me 70% crit on retrieval, but it wasn't working that way. Thought it was just bad luck at first, but it persisted over most of a run, so a couple hundred throws and I was definitely not getting 50 or 70% crit rate. I sent a bug report just in case.
I mean, even if it's multiplicative on the hammer, I still should've had 30% chance on retrieval after getting the Artemis Boon, and I don't think it was lining up with that.
kind cloud
question about nemesis build:
say i have artemis dashstrike and aphrodite attack.
when given a pom to upgrade, shouldn't i upgrade artemis dashstrike over aphrodite attack?
furthermore: does upgrading attack also upgrade dashstrike? no, right?
hearty elbow
@kind cloud Upgrade the one that gives the most % bonus. They go to the same pot
steady hatch
im pretty sure that attack affects dash-strike too, but not the other way around
hearty elbow
Yes, your attack affects dash strike
steady hatch
also iirc pom on attack is worth more than pom on artemis dash
kind cloud
Yes, your attack affects dash strike
@hearty elbow oh, really? i did not know that...
hearty elbow
That depends on rarity and stuff I think? Or maybe it's static. Just upgrade the bigger number 😛
kind cloud
doesn't base dashstrike do more damage than base attack?
hearty elbow
The attack/dash-strike interactions in this game are... convoluted
kind cloud
yeah...i was kinda oblivious to it until recently.
steady hatch
doesn't base dashstrike do more damage than base attack?
this is weapon specific
kind cloud
I meant for nemesis.
steady hatch
yeah for sword i think it does
hearty elbow
For Nemesis, it's more that it has an extremely long range and snappy cancel-able animation
But yeah the damage is also better
So... better on every axis
steady hatch
bow might be the only exception anyways
kind cloud
LIke...I didn't realize that attack/dash strike were separate things...
steady hatch
yeah it's weird
tight eagle
it is weirdly
hearty elbow
It gets weirder with Cursed Slash and Piercing Wave, which don't work with Dash Strike
hearty elbow
Cruel Thrust also doesn't work. That should be relatively clear from the description but like... it's definitely the thrustiest attack
magic dagger
the thrust is thrustier than the dash-strike imo
hearty elbow
It has like the same exact animation but dash strike goes further lol
magic dagger
there's more of a wind up, and you can really see the effort zag puts into it
dash strike is just holding a sword out while shifting
there's no thrust there
hearty elbow
Yeah, Zag def girds up his loins more for the thrust thrust, I guess that counts for something
lol, intuitively I assumed that the 10 second long animation of the Zag aspect thrust would deal more damage than Dash Strike. Nawp.
magic dagger
thrust is a horrible attack, yeah
30 damage after about a second of windup, locked behind the chop that is also low damage and slow? yikes
only the first slash is worthwile
hearty elbow
If only to announce to you that you should stop trying to press Dash + Attack at the same time while playing Nemesis.
gray moon
Once I started using Excalibur, i could never go back to regular sword.
the difference in damage in pretty dramatic
kind cloud
when playing with nemesis on m&kb, i switch my setting to "dash at cursor" b/c it makes it so much easier.
Trying to control dash direction and attack/dashstrike separately is tough (although often preferred).
the difference in damage in pretty dramatic
@gray moon as tempting as it is to use artemis for crits on excalibur, i find myself using aphrodite on attack.
aphrodite epic attack establishes a high floor for damage numbers, plus gives enemy debuffs which adds into the sword special aura/barrier. that can be a lifesaver in high heat. aphrodite is arguably the most versatile boon.
small stirrup
I guess direction dash is easier since we're pretty much built into it
small stirrup
I should have mentioned I speak for myself and my friends, but in most 3d games with a dash (Furi, Enter the gungeon) sort of mechanic its been super comfortable and much easier to set the dash to the directional keys than the cursor
So I'd disagree with you when you say dash to cursor is easier but then its probs cause I never exactly got used to it
kind cloud
ok, yeah. got it. i absolutely agree for most aspects. but for nemesis aspect, since artemis dashing and attack are combined to take advantage of special, i find it waaaaay more useful to switch the setting just for that one aspect. on excalibur for instance, i like to dash in different directions in between the attack sequence to avoid hits white zag is doing the wind-up for the powerful attacks.
i love the flexibility of being able to dash northwest but attack east on most aspects. but on nemesis aspect, i can't because to dashstrike requires one to dash to trigger attack. it's kinda strange. it's the only aspect where i switch the setting to "dash at cursor"
small stirrup
I can respect that. Whatever makes the game more enjoyable for you bud
tight eagle
can you get Dionysus - Demeter Duo as well as Dionysus - Zues Duo?
tight eagle
small stirrup
kind cloud
yeah, it's possible to get duo boons with an overlap in a build
Ex: merciful end from athena/ares and curse of longing from ares/aphrodite
magic dagger
merciful end +curse of longing doesn't really work though
unlike ice win + zappy win
kind cloud
it does on zeus shield
use the rotating shield (which is basically an autonomous rotating turret)
when i use that aspect, i always take athena (deflect) on special and ares (doom) on attack, then i try for either poseidon or aphrodite (weak) on dash.
that's a build a friend figured out and showed me. it's actually super strong and doesn't require much in the way of poms because the duo boons sync and work well
small stirrup
I wouldn't rely on it that much since duos seem to just take 180s when they see me
kind cloud
lol, yeah...sometimes game's rng screws with you but i've grown to like zeus shield a lot simply because of athena and her deflect, i learned to play the game with athena on zag sword before it was nerfed so i kinda like athena on zeus shield (similar).
but really...shield is my favorite weapon and 3 of the 4 aspects are strong for high heat runs
zeus shield is underrated
static jacinth
Regarding the feedback on Lambent plume... That change would be pointless. They'd just shorten the timer by the amount it takes for the barge to land.
static jacinth
Yeah. For the barge of death.
Since it's already considering the time it takes for the barge to stop.
Each floor has a 'par' time.
small stirrup
Oh I see
So in the end if you miss that spot for the plume, that means you would've missed it anyways
I gotcha
Then it should be removed because it gives players the wrong idea
hearty elbow
I do love that build in general, but it's a lot smoother if you use Rama special to spread poison (even without relentless volley, 2x special is faster than Attack + Special on Chiron), with Ares/Aphro attack for those duos.
marsh idol
What do yall build for Naegling's board? I've finished a few runs with it but could never get a buld that clicked
hearty elbow
Charged Flight -> Profit
marsh idol
The thing where Zag charges his throw?
hearty elbow
It's a 6x damage multplier, so with any arbitrary attack boon you're literally set for the run
marsh idol
I always try to take the upgrade that turns the shield into a better coronacht
Huh just be Captain America then I guess
hearty elbow
It's fine. Less fine on Beo since the attack animation is pretty slow, but it's fine to safely cast stuff (I assume the cast comes out wherever the Charged Shot ends)
marsh idol
Yup it does
Surprisingly I havent found Dionysus cast to be that effective
Last run I took the Artemis cast
hearty elbow
Idk about the Flare bases numbers but Phalanx Shot and Crush Shot have the highest bases. Artemis gives you outs for Mirage Shot with Poseidon and Fully Loaded
I really dislike cast builds with Beo though. Unless you get Charged Shot, Hera just plays a lot smoother
tight eagle
ffs i wanted to go for ares cast
i got one
ONE ares boon
i got epic cast
and that is it
i managed to get arthemis duo, but without tier 2 ares boons it's kinda meh, and i really invested in it, it's level 6 now
hearty elbow
In no universe is Hunting Blades meh lol
You got the Duo, I'd still call that a good run
tight eagle
yeah, that's true
I dont even need ares legendary, the S U C K to the cast would be nice
hearty elbow
Shrug. It's pretty straightforward to try and supplement the damage with a call or your attacks.
warped hemlock
So the Deadalus Hammer upgrade Cursed Slash for the sword is pretty good right?
willow fossil
warped hemlock
Oh, dionysus cast with the daze effect actually more often than not hurts my runs, because, perhaps it's the way I play, which is by making use of my most effective things and ignoring everything else, such as my cast, since it's not usually adding a ton to my run, but when I try to make use of the dionysus boon it generally hurts more because of not having access to them as often.
dry ember
I think using boons effectively comes with experience
Although if you have Hera Bow
Give Trippy Shot a try
It's really good.
warped hemlock
I mean admittedly I've only beaten Hades with 8 heat at most though, so I'm not the most experienced.
dry ember
8 heat is p good! I assume you have access to Hera Bow then?
livid dew
I want to test demeter gloves with dio and ares. Any recommendations for which one should be attack and which one should be special attack. Gonna do the run at 20 heat
unkempt pagoda
honestly either can work
both drunken flourish and ares flourish have a higher damage than their associated strike, iirc
you could go ares special and work up to impending doom/dire misfortune, have drunken strike and go for curse of nausea
turbid needle
Ares's boons have the same damage now.
warped hemlock
WOW, middle management with the Asphodel mini boss can absolutely destroy you if you don't have good damage output like with the railgun.
I'm currently trying to slowly raise my heat up to a higher point, but it's tough, currently at 10 heat, and struggling.
unkempt pagoda
MM power couple is the hardest miniboss in the game, so
ideally you want witches, since barge can waste time
warped hemlock
Like, I feel like power couple is the hardest miniboss in the game full stop lol, much less a powered up variant of them lol
hearty elbow
You're in for a bad time lol. The fights are totally different
"powered up" is kind of disingenuous
warped hemlock
Funny enough EM was one of the first Heat things I did, because I was curious for the variants of the boss fights, and I think I prefer that over MM since MM feels like there's a lot more things to go wrong II think
unkempt pagoda
the only real problematic thing with MM is power couple imo, the rest feel much more fun
hearty elbow
MM doesn't affect Asterius by himself does it? I think he gets his armor and moveset from EM3
unkempt pagoda
sgg even considers him a full boss too!
warped hemlock
Asterius is the only real threat with the heroes imo, once you take care of him, you basically run circles around Theseus until he loses with or without EM3. It's just, with EM3 you have to avoid Theseus bombs and charges.
hearty elbow
Some minibosses are easier on MM, like the brimstone one in Tartarus lol
The issue with EM3 is that it scales with heat... very well
unkempt pagoda
doomstone, bombers, and witches circle are basically a non-issue
hearty elbow
And is grossly unforgiving to melee builds
unkempt pagoda
butterfly, barge, and sneak are annoying, but usually not too bad
tribal cradle
Is Charron killable? Only fought him once
hearty elbow
DIes at 20% i think
tribal cradle
Ohhh sick
hearty elbow
What does MM barge do?
unkempt pagoda
MM styx minis are on that borderline between annoying and dangerous
mm barge is more enemies per wave
hearty elbow
I actually have very little idea what most of the MMs do in Styx lol
unkempt pagoda
mm styx basically just spawns a different dire miniboss
so you'd have dire rat and dire bother together, or dire satyr and dire snakestone
hearty elbow
It was kind of a paradox of avoiding boss rooms like the plague at low heat, until the heat got high enough that boss rooms became easier than normal rooms
warped hemlock
I can manage to get through the heroes without losing a DD unless Asterius gets a couple of hits on me, but his attack patterns are pretty standard, I think the charge and the second phase waves that he shoots out of his axe are the hardest things to dodge
hearty elbow
So I never really got to learn the non-MM versions