Chaos Aspect can hit twice, once on the way back as well. But only shield it looks like? Honestly it's really hard to tell
#h1-builds-and-combat
hearty elbow
Oh, okay. SO I believe the way it works with Chaos aspect is only 1 shield can hit on the way out, but any shield hitting on the return will proc itts own lightning
As always, Chaos aspect is the best in every possible metric
neon bramble
I haven't taken Zeus on special in a long time, so I'm not surprised
Which basically puts Thunder flourish on bottom tier compared to others
hearty elbow
Yeah
neon bramble
Because on a charged upper for fists you lose out on a ton of damage
Especially when it comes to explosive upper hammer
hearty elbow
sucks. Though it's probably fine for Chaos aspect. Though being in a coma would work for that too
For completeness sake Rama special also only applies it once. womp womp
neon bramble
Why would I ever take thunder flourish on fists, when I can take curse of pain and apply doom to multiple targets for way more damage 🤣
hearty elbow
There's a pretty long list of boons I wish they'd look at again. LIke Hydraulic Might and Battle Rage not applying to spells
They already nerfed the Stygian Soul cast builds to be basically impossible. Throw us a bone
lost cairn
Lately, I just go for Lady Aphrodite for damage + Divine Dash + Lord Zeus for Smoldering Air on everything lol.
@cunning urchin with Zeus aid I suppose?
hollow mural
guys
whats the best build
if you wanna use the spear
idk what god boons to focus on
hearty elbow
which spear?
neon bramble
For Zag spear I highly recommend explosive launcher + deadly flourish, or Tempest flourish plus Zeus for a possible seastorm combo
For Hades aspect, you can do almost any boons, but go for massive/quick spin if you can. Otherwise go for serrated point + exploding launcher.
Extending jab can also be an excellent hammer
Pretty much allows you to attack across the entire screen
I'm personally not a huge fan of the spear. I haven't really done an Achilles aspect build yet, but it has promise with cast builds for sure
hearty elbow
Can Peer Pressure make hangover ticks crit?
neon bramble
Yes
hearty elbow
nifty
neon bramble
But I mean...
It'll only trigger on each individual tick
So not as useful as you think
hearty elbow
lol, more useful than most of Artemis' stuff on a non-crit build
neon bramble
There's a duo boon that gives it a far better chance to Crit
hearty elbow
yep
neon bramble
Splitting headache I think?
weak rivet
livid dew
what are some of your guys favorite builds. like god + weapon/weapon aspect. im getting a bit bored and want to try some new stuff
if you google god boons it will pop up the hades wiki and at the bottom show how to get the boons for that good
neon bramble
What weapon(s) do you usually use?
livid dew
my mains are the excalibur/ posedion sword, hera bow, and guantlet. but atm i just been going from weapon adn weapon and slowly increasing all their heats. sword and bow are at 19/20 and the rest are between 7 to 14
neon bramble
And how much reserve titan blood do you have?
livid dew
everything is maxed out except 2nd aspect gun i need 9 more titan blood for that
neon bramble
What fist aspect do you usually use?
livid dew
@weak rivet https://hades.gamepedia.com/Zeus for example you can use this website to see all the zeus boons and the bottom shows what boons unlock which boons to help ya get zeus legendary boon. and you can use this website for every god
i typically go demeter aspect for the fist or the first one cause it so fast
neon bramble
Have you tried heart rend on it (Aphro attack, Artemis special) or merciful end (Ares attack, Athena dash)?
livid dew
for demeter aspect. i dont think i have, i know i used heart rend before but not on the gloves i think. ill give it a shot thanks
neon bramble
Heart rend is fun.... Merciful end is insane
turbid needle
Heart Rend is nuts with Deadly Flourish and Aspect of Demeter.
I wanna say it's part of the way the Aspect deals its crits, but if one hit crits every hit in a Giga Cutter will.
neon bramble
Other fun builds...
Demeter Frost strike + killing freeze or arctic blast
turbid needle
I used Frost Strike on a Forced Overtime 2 run recently and wow it's like playing with 6 free Heat.
livid dew
right now my goal is to max out the last gun i need then save 15 titan blood for when the 4th aspect fist come out. just trying to figure out new stuff cause the gods i use the most are probably demeter, artemtis, athena, zeus, and aphro. doom hasnt impressed me that much but ill probably try merciful end. oh you dont need to suggest demeter. demeter is my most used god.
neon bramble
Just avoid Poseidon on fists. The only aspect it can be utilized on is Talos
livid dew
yeah ive done talos poseidon yo-yo
turbid needle
"Just avoid Poseidon." FTFY
livid dew
though that new poseidon boon that lets you do like 250% more damage in 5 seconds is pretty nice
turbid needle
It is pretty cool.
neon bramble
Also... Try this build on Lucifer rail @livid dew
livid dew
wow you telling me not do zeus+artemtis or pure demeter best god for lucifer
lol ill try that too that seems fun
turbid needle
.........That might actually work.
You don't believe in precedent, but I like it, Manthro.
neon bramble
I just like trying stuff for fun
livid dew
my issue with ares is the stuff i like from him is his call and his attack buffs, especailly cause his 2nd tier and legendary can buff the call so you do insane damage when you full call it. doom just always felt so slow compared to other stuff. but this one does seem interesting cause of dire misfortune and how fast lucifer goes
neon bramble
It worked extremely well
livid dew
here is a question i typically never go eternal chamber for lucifer, is it decent? i always done the stuff that made the beam go faster or ramp up faster
turbid needle
Merciful End with Divine Dash is a super busted build for basically anything.
livid dew
cause i felt the ramping up damage is the best part of lucifer
neon bramble
It's only good with the right attack boon
turbid needle
Lightning Strike or apparently Dire Misfortune Doom.
neon bramble
Zeus or Ares really
turbid needle
Maybe with stacked Hangover or Chill builds, but really you could just stick to lightning.
livid dew
okay cause ive done both zeus and demeter boon for the attack and just did ramp up but yeah going infinite does make sense in those cases, especailyl if you got the artemtis boon that fires arrows while you attack
neon bramble
I was getting doom to tick for over 1k damage with pressure points
livid dew
oooh snap
neon bramble
And I also had curse of longing
hearty elbow
you also want it for Poseidon with Lucy
breaking wave is seriously legit with that aspect
livid dew
my friends are slowly getting into the game and im like teaching them stuff and they are like is pressure point good even at common and im like if you got a fast weapon pressure point is good whenever. heck i take pressure point at common with excalibuar just to get that 3x damage
just the chance to crit whenever is so nice
hearty elbow
pressure point is free
and doesn't dilute your poms
it's never amazing though
it's wayyyyyyyyyy netter than Urge to Kill though
that is trash
neon bramble
Battle frenzy is good
hearty elbow
Urge to Kill would be less offensive to me if didn't insist on showing up in every pom
neon bramble
Ha
hearty elbow
Urge to Kill isn't base?
neon bramble
Yes it is
hearty elbow
that's going to be moderately annoying to test, i'll do it after this run i guess. I will retract my opinions on the buff if that is true.
livid dew
urge to kill increases attack,special, and cast for 8 to 14% mattering how rare you got it. between urge to kill, battle frenzy, and battle rage. i usually go for urge to kill or battle frenzy. just cause for me that helps with bosses a lot more then battle rage.
hearty elbow
battle rage is better if you're trying to tight deadline elysium etc. depending on weapon
e.g. it TRUCKS with Arthur aspect lol
neon bramble
Yeah, but what @hearty elbow is referring to is if it applies to base damage, or just additional damage after all modifiers are finished calculating
livid dew
true but usually even at high heats i avoid tight deadline
i hate tight deadline
i hate feeling like i need to keep going faster
cause i just end up making mistakes
neon bramble
The only biome where it is a true problem is Elysium
Sometimes Styx too, but not often
hearty elbow
though it's not great design that some builds will just never be able to tight deadline 5 room styx
it's very rare though
keen adder
Man cursed slash plus the onr that makes your attack super fast is kinda broken lol
Just hold Y to win
hearty elbow
ares pls. spawn in room 3 and no urge to kill in 5 resets x_x
sterile portal
You actually want urge to kill?
hearty elbow
read above, i want to test @neon bramble's claim that it is a base damage increase
i sincerely doubt it but he seemed sure
hearty elbow
In his defense, it does have the same phrasing as CHaos boons
sterile portal
It may be an independant 12% damage increase that applies separately from the rest of the additive damage increases
hearty elbow
that would also be kind of great
sterile portal
But that's very unlikely
I think they may have made family favorites work like that however
hearty elbow
yeah ii'm testing on a seed with guan yu + charged skewer in room 1, with 135 charged damage
did they? because it is garbage otherwise lol
i'll try that after this
sterile portal
It would be so much easier to track the changes to the game if I don't know, SGG actually posted patch notes that covered all the changes
hearty elbow
lol bsaically. if you played during tech beta it was like the wild west
i swear rama changed like every hour
felt like i was getting gas lit by SGG
sterile portal
It really really did
Played the entire beta, every update became "time to figure out what the update actually included"
hearty elbow
"time to find out if rama's number of projectiles, spread, ricochet, hammers, attack speed, sharanga % changed"
probably all of them
huh. i thought you just had to cast or something to change the boons within the same seed
got a repeat this time
sterile portal
Huh, did you cast the same amount of times?
Also, interesting fact: If you charge a shot with hestia, then reload, then fire right before the reload completes, you can get 2 powered shots in a row
hearty elbow
probably? yeah i cast like a million this to be sure lol, different boons. praise Zeus, urge to kill
sterile portal
got it
But yeah, seems like you need to dash strike to get that double shot
Thought it was a bug initially lol
hearty elbow
yeah i noticed that
also i think @neon bramble is right. Which means the wiki is wrong. So:
Guan Yu Special: 45
Charged Skewer Full: 135
w/ Urge to Kill: 149
45 * 1.1 * 3 = 148.5
45 * 3.1 = 139.5
hearty elbow
testing with boiling blood right now, and looking for a damage attack boon to be certain
and chaos if i'm lucky
special boon*
hearty elbow
I think I see. Urge to Kill is additive (normal)
On charge, getting 328
Urge to Kill: 12
Tempest Flourish: 129
Charged Skewer: 200
The only way I could get that number is assuming Urge to Kill is normal additive but Charged Skewer is base damage:
45 * 3 * (1 + 1.29 + .12) = 326.7
This accounts for the previous calculation, as Charged Skewer would be the base multiplier and Urge to Kill being the lone additive
And accounts for 216, which is full charge with 10% Urge to Kill and Boiling Blood (50%)
45 * 3 * (1 + .1 + .5) = 216
Good to know, at least, that hammer bonuses are base
tl/dr Hammers op, Urge to Kill megatrash
that took... a lot longer than i planned
sterile portal
Interesting
hearty elbow
oh yeah, i said i'd do family favorites. that should be easier.
sterile portal
And you're positive that Charged Skewer is a 200% increase to base damage?
hearty elbow
for the previous example, with 216, if it was additive, it should be:
45 * (1 + 2 + .1 +.6) = 162
.5**
sterile portal
Yeah, charged skewer looks like it multiplies base damage
Or well, acts as an independant multiplier
hearty elbow
FF (and presumably privileged boon but i refuse to test that lol) is also additive.
3 gods (15%), Hunter Flourish (56)
Actual: 231
45 * 3 * (1 + .15 + .56) = 230.85
privileged status*
hearty elbow
yeah, caveat that i obviously have not tested every hammer that has bonus damage. Charged Skewer could be an exception
sterile portal
Which is why it's so insane
hearty elbow
Sigh. challenge accepted. To the lab.
mighty ermine
huh, i suspected as much with priv status, but recently i was told that it was additive
but that didn't sit well with me
hearty elbow
I have heard the same thing recently. More concerning is that FF is additive, because 5% additive is literally nothing. I'm still fishing for status curse 2, sec.
mighty ermine
yeah, i was under the impression that FF is additive and not that great compared to priv status which is not additive
sterile portal
It honestly feels like FF should be multiplicative instead of additive to be closer balanced to Priviledged Status
mighty ermine
i agree
once i learned of how differently they work, i've been using priv status almost exclusively
missing out on FF bonus isn't a big deal, and getting priv status bonus kind of is
hearty elbow
I usually pick FF just to not tempt myself with bad boons (god forbid Crush Shot) to trigger PS. especially if i'm doing Athena or Artemis core
livid dew
So what is better privileged status or FF. I've been switching back and forth? Mainly just been doing FF unless I know I'm going for something dumb like a chill jolt round
mighty ermine
exposed isn't too hard to get with athena, though, at least. my recent 41 and 42 clears with hades aspect made use of blinding flash to great effect with frost strike
priv status' damage boost was very noticeable
hearty elbow
PS is a lot better usually, but i'm working on confirming both are additive right now. FF is more for "generalist" or crit based builds
yeah, PS even additive is still like half a boon
mighty ermine
yeah, and while i like the idea of FF in contrast with PS, if it truly is just additive and with a fairly gradual curve towards what's typically going to be notably lower than PS active bonus anyway, it seems not worth that switch in general
most of the time
unless you're absolutely sure you're not going to land two statuses
consistent statuses anyway
hearty elbow
Lol, I didn't get PS in Tartarus starting with Aphro. Bbl, dinner
livid dew
Hunter mark doesnt work if there is only one person left right?
mighty ermine
right, yeah
mighty ermine
i think i know exactly what lol
hearty elbow
The OG hunter dash used to guarantee a crit
mighty ermine
and that got changed for a reason, yeah
hearty elbow
lol yep
Oh, and FF is fine for Zeus attack builds, or sea storm, where you don't want to rely on Jolted.
neon bramble
@livid dew I have an incoming video in #self-promotion showing the power of that doom build vs EM3 if you wanna see
Has curse of longing too 😆
livid dew
I tried it out it was fun
Had curse if longing as well. But my stuff was all common so it wasnt as crazy
But it won a 12 heat run
But hey it got me enough titan blood. So now every weapon is maxed out and now I wait for 4th aspect fist
neon bramble
hearty elbow
PS is additive, behaves identically to FF
sterile portal
I find that hard to believe
hearty elbow
charged skewer, heartbreak flourish (80%), used hangover as second status. full charge is 297
45 * 3 * (1 + .8 + .4) = 297
multiplicative would be
45 * 3 * 1.4 * 1.8 = 340.2
sterile portal
That's very very surprising quite honestly
Perhaps at one point it was multiplicative, and now it's been changed
hearty elbow
multipliers are pretty dangerous for a game like this. it kind of makes sense.
that's why crit keeps getting nerfed lol
it lets them keep in big sexy numbers to appeal to our lizard brains while not actually breaking anything
sterile portal
Crit has been getting nerfed?
hearty elbow
hunter dash used to make the strike always crit. Hunter's mark used to apply to the target itself
mighty ermine
thanks for verifying ledger
hearty elbow
you're welcome 🙂 those questions have been bugging me for a long time too
my next question would be what attack speed does to the bow..
and how does it interact with the dash charge speed buff
neon bramble
charged skewer, heartbreak flourish (80%), used hangover as second status. full charge is 297
45 * 3 * (1 + .8 + .4) = 297
This is always how I've calculated it in my head. It's the only logical way for damage buffs to work. I'm surprised people thought it was multiplicative in the first place
hearty elbow
@neon bramble Though I did confirm that Urge to Kill is as garbage as advertised. Probably fine in a cast build
neon bramble
Order doesn't matter, but I've always looked at it like this:
45 * (1 + .8 + .4) * 3
As I like to apply the modifiers before the Crit multiplier
Just for my OCD brain
hearty elbow
Maybe it's intuitive for you but debuffs being calculated additively with weapon buffs is very very odd to me
tired elk
Ok I need some serious help here lol Chaos Aspect Shield
Heart Rend + Deadly flourish + Deadly Reversal + Reflect on Dash + Hunters Mark + Heartbeak Strike
Should I go for Dionysus Special?
or just stay with the Chaos Aspect Shield Crit build
Deadly Flourish is only level 3 Common as well ugh
serene isle
What hammers do you have
tired elk
100% more damage on special while dashing
oh yea that's an important thing to add in lol
and special is 12% faster
serene isle
What heat are you on I guess
sterile portal
I would definitely recommend Ares or Dio on special
hearty elbow
crit shield is fine . honestly any special with shield is fine
sterile portal
The thing to realize is Chaos shield does low-ish damage but incredibly wide-spread hits
After getting both of those, it's probably not worth it to swap to Dio
hearty elbow
you have both crit duos, i definitely would not switch now
serene isle
Agreed
tired elk
I have the increased crit on enemies who have hangover on them as well
just couldn't find anything that gave hangover :c
serene isle
Yeah sounds like your build is fine
serene isle
That's a lotta boons
brisk cairn
is poseidon cast terrible on beowulf?
I'm admittedly new to using beowulf but I kept expecting some sort of stun/stagger when casts went off
I got dumpstered by the witch boss in asphodel and then lost 3 DDs in a witch room in elysium
I assume its because I don't know what Im doing
but am curious
cunning urchin
"Lately, I just go for Lady Aphrodite for damage + Divine Dash + Lord Zeus for Smoldering Air on everything lol."
@cunning urchin with Zeus aid I suppose?
@lost cairn with Dionysus' Aid, Poseidon's Aid, Zeus' Aid, or Athena's Aid usually.
dry ember
Aphrodite's Aid for quick Champ and Dad kill is also good
rich kelp
any tips for Guan Yu? Its so much fun up till bosses then i cant survive with the huge hp handicap and the spin is so slow i never get it off, and im relegated to dodging and special till i die. ><
serene isle
The secret tech to Guan Yu Spear is that one of the big reasons you take it (and how it helps against bosses) is that the special is good (and you should build around it)
You shouldn't be spinning against Bosses
Use Special and Dash attack (and sometimes the first Attack in your combo chain) to deal damage
Attempting a full 3 hit combo or a spin is basically suicide unless you have fast spin or something
turbid needle
Quick Spin is Guan Yu's best build. Give it Deflect and get another Artemis boon and you have easy bake crits that block projectiles and some enemy melee attacks.
Special is for people picking up Guan Yu.
Special requires Charged Skewer anyway, so just build based on what your first Hammer gives.
rich kelp
i feel like arthur does the "big slow hits" so much better, but ill give it another go, ty.
rich kelp
i prolly wasnt focused build wise
serene isle
There's like a sliding scale
Of power/range/speed between the Sword/Bow/Spear 4th aspects
When it comes to doing "big slow hits"
Sword has the least range but the power and speed are decent.
Spear has the least damage but speed and range are decent
Bow has the least speed but the range and power are decent.
Etc.
magic dagger
Hestia
serene isle
Hestia exists
Honestly, I only take Lucifer for the laser.
It's kinda unfortunate that the upgrades to it only make the special better
hearty elbow
Lucifer is faster, stronger, and with range comparable to bow.
Shrug, Eternal Chamber + Zeus trivialize content anyway
serene isle
Yeah I tried that in a run and it RUINED Dad
hearty elbow
If you get Support Fire... gggggg
serene isle
LASORSSSSSS
hearty elbow
I wish I didn't suck at Guan Yu. I'm trying. Small goal to not lose a DD to FO EM Theseus/Bull-sempai
note, what ends up happening is that I lose all of my dd's to that boss lol, so progress can be made. Stalling at 20 heat
i know i don't "have to" pick FO but that's for quitters
serene isle
You probably just wanna do "coward" special dash strats
I don't think getting into a stick fight with Theseus is gonna work out
dry ember
just use Hades
hearty elbow
his laughter in the chariot is so demoralizing
cunning urchin
Yeah, just throw Zagreus's dad at Theseus.
hearty elbow
lol
serene isle
Technically, if that were possible, Theseus would just nope outta there
hearty elbow
would he though?
serene isle
his laughter in the chariot is so demoralizing
Silence blackguard. Honor honor something. Ahahahaha. Deception!
hearty elbow
still talkin' smack after like 100 losses
serene isle
would he though?
Hades IS his boss.
hearty elbow
I somehow can't imagine Theseus noping out of anything
If only he ate friendly fire from Astorias' spin-to-win. Getting stunlocked in that is not ideal. Honestly barely realized stun was a mechanic until that fight
serene isle
That's why turdy is good. I think EM3 Bull/King is the fight you ACTUALLY have to prepare for because if you pass that, you can technically pass Dad.
hearty elbow
lol, sometimes i die to the stupidest stuff in styx. 90% of the time its the poison dart guys, or the forced overtime big armored chariots that Dad summons
do projectiles move 40% faster too?
dry ember
yup
serene isle
I think they do, yeah.
hearty elbow
oh hahahaha i thought i was just hallucinating and complaining for nothing
that's good to know
serene isle
Can someone confirm whether or not you can bat darts out of the way
like you can with witch orbs?
dry jay
hey so, im loving experimenting with new builds but id also love to see some suggestions and guidance... if anyone wants to help me out, i just posted in the self promo tab! hope everyone is having a wonderful day, whether or not they come check it out ❤️
cunning urchin
You can definitely i-frame or evade poison darts on FO2, but you need to see the Satyr on-screen for that or pay very close attention to sound cues and know the timing.
sterile portal
Shield (Chaos) with Dio special and ares attack
mighty ermine
trippy shot hera bow and hope for ice wine and/or scintillating feast
sterile portal
Would Rail (Eris) work with dio?
turbid needle
Yup.
sterile portal
If only Eris special landed faster
and Hestia Rail reloaded faster
and Zag rail was interesting
livid dew
I've already done that build a bunch of times tailesque. That's typically my go to hera buiod
I kinda meant more for hangover builds just cause I rarely do hangover
cunning urchin
Dionysus' Aid + Smoldering Air.
sterile portal
Try Demeter Fists with Zeus Attack, Aphro Special, and Smouldering Air Dio Aid
unkempt pagoda
black out + eris build
livid dew
What's smouldering air?
sterile portal
Zeus/Aphro Duo, Call charges up quickly and automatically, but is capped at 25% max
unkempt pagoda
every five seconds you can use your lesser call
magic dagger
I didn't know it was that fast
sterile portal
Yeah it's fantastic
amber jackal
What is the intended interaction between hera bow aspect and curse of drowning?
It seems to activate once the arrow lands, but also seems to only trigger for up to 3 casts at once, sometimes less, but not more than 3. This limit of 3 is unintuitive / not advertised to the player. Additionally, this trigger timing seems at odds with the Demeter snow burst implementation which triggers its damage when you load the cast into the bow. I think changing the curse of drowning implementation to match how snow burst works would be more intuitive and result in smoother gameplay.
I didn't seem to have permissions to post in feedback, but that might be the more relevant spot for this
magic dagger
@amber jackal check the pins in #hades-feedback for permission to post
livid dew
oh that one i love that duo boon, sorry i just always forget what the names of the duos are
i lowkey wish that duo would just blast the call right away while it gets full cause spamming call while focusing on my other attacks can get hetic.
simple forum
The 25% cap one? Yeah, that one can be rough to keep going. It's super good though, especially with Zeus call on an in your face dodge fist build with boosted dodge/speed after call use. So good!
cunning urchin
Nah, I'd rather it remains the way it is, so I can i-frame with Call when I want to.
Not using Call when it's up is just a player skill thing. You could just mash the button while focusing on other things when you want to use it immediately.
static prawn
anyone know of a situation where cold embrace is viable? I got it and it turned my ok build into a 5 minute slog per room until I purged it for coin. It's the one that makes the crystal beams point towards you and adds 4 seconds of duration to them
serene isle
@static prawn It works decently well if you're running a melee build since you direct the lasers.
static prawn
makes sense ig but it just seems like such a weird tradeoff to me for a few extra seconds of damage that is less likely to hit the enemy if you're prone to positioning yourself wrong. Few other duos have tradeoffs at all which makes it stick out even more to me.
serene isle
I'm pretty sure some duos have weird tradeoffs/changes that people can view as tradeoffs
If you like being far away from enemies as your lasers hit things, then it'll definitely seem like a downgrade.
turbid needle
To be fair, a good number of Duos are just massive buffs with no downsides.
unkempt pagoda
one day i will get my flurry cast + parting shot + cold embrace build
on like, poseidon sword or something
serene isle
Granted, you're already using Demeter laser cast
so you know you're already setting yourself up for a buncha tradeoffs
LOL
turbid needle
I just want Flurry Cast, Crush Shot, Dem's Cast Chill AoE (I'm blanking), Blown Kiss, and Parting Shot on Aspect of Poseidon.
turbid needle
Thank you.
unkempt pagoda
and for good measure, at least 3 ambush chaos boons
turbid needle
Nah, can just take Blinding Flash and a few Poms.
cunning urchin
You should put any feedback on Cold Embrace in #hades-feedback. That way the devs will for sure read it.
unkempt pagoda
call him backbreaker zagreus
turbid needle
Onyx, how would you balance an Athena/Demeter Duo that guaranteed backstab damage?
Like, shooting Theseus in the face with Piercing Fire? Backstab.
cunning urchin
Like if anything feels off about it, or you have difficulty figuring out how it works, that stuff is valuable feedback for the devs.
Guaranteed backstab damage would be broken lol.
unkempt pagoda
i would not, instead i will keep quiet about it for until after the post-update patches roll around so i can enjoy it
like smouldering
lament coral
what's wrong with it?
turbid needle
Will Explosive Return proc a lightning bolt with Thunder Flourish?
unkempt pagoda
on a serious note, ig the best way would be only on chilled enemies
serene isle
Honestly? I just wish athena/demeter caused your lasers to pierce that way I could track where my casts are (since sometimes enemies body block the laser and I lose track of it))
turbid needle
That's what I was thinking.
unkempt pagoda
i don't think explosive return procs any abilities
call it bitter intrigue or something
demeter/athena duo - seasoned tactics: guaranteed backstab on chilled foes
lament coral
use Aphro/Demeter and you'll never lose track of your casts
unkempt pagoda
another way could possibly be, for each stack of chill you gain +% amount of backstab damage (kinda boring but more balanced i think)
near grove
Hello, can't make Stygian Blade work. What single god is good for blade (aspect of zagreus) to start with?
unkempt pagoda
turbid needle
Enemies with max Chill stacks take backstab damage?
unkempt pagoda
the best i can give you is doom snap nova
Enemies with max Chill stacks take backstab damage?
good, but not a great match with arctic blast
unless the arctic blast also does backstab, which would be interesting
turbid needle
I'm leaning towards "Okay with anti-synergy because this Duo is dummy broken."
near grove
the best i can give you is doom snap nova
thanks
unkempt pagoda
it would make arctic blast builds that much more powerful, which i'm okay with
livid dew
Which weapon/weapon aspect do you guys enjoy using demeter the most on?
unkempt pagoda
chiron + frost flourish + arctic blast + this duo + concentrated
livid dew
Yeah I enjoy her with demeter fist a lot as well
unkempt pagoda
demeter has Pretty Great™️ damage modifiers, so i just like her on everybody
if nothing else, she has rare crop and nourished soul
livid dew
Yeah she is usually my go to god. I just dont know which weapon I like her on the most so wanted to hear opinions
unkempt pagoda
chiron arctic blast build is a blast, literally and figuratively
livid dew
Rama bow with special demeter and artic blast is fun
You just spam special and then everything starts blowing up
unkempt pagoda
poseidon sword + crystal clarity makes her cast useable
had a good run with Lucy + Frost Flourish + Hazard Bomb
demeter is just a great olympian all around, would rate her top 3
livid dew
Yeah arti on attack demeter cast and Poseidon sword is a solid combo I do sometimes
And then if you get the boon where the cast deals chill damage it's really fun
static prawn
I find demeter cast great for when I'm using a build that doesn't need me to cast to help clear a room. Just have to press the button a couple times and move on like normal
livid dew
Though lowkey I wish those werent two separate boons and her lasers already do chill
serene isle
That's the thing, I guess. I use boiling blood a lot, so having the casts act that way is often a huge DPS drop for me.
unkempt pagoda
crystal beam is better on stygian soul, as a little cherry on top to do some extra damage
livid dew
Like so many other cast do the core stuff. Artemtis cast crits, aphro cast weakens, athena deflects, zeus shocks, Poseidon knock backs, so I just feel like demeter cast should do chill damage without getting a second boon
unkempt pagoda
tbf, it's one of the non-sticking casts
ares doesn't do doom and dio doesn't do poison
static prawn
doesn't festive fog have stun?
livid dew
Yeah festive fog does have some stun abilties
cunning urchin
@near grove Heartbreak Strike does a lot of work on Stygius. Pick up Divine Dash and anything from Lord Zeus + a good Call, too, and go for Smoldering Air, so you can spam Calls left and right.
Even without Smoldering Air, Stygius gains God Gauge very fast, so a good Call will help a lot.
livid dew
I like demeter boon I just wish it chilled off the bat. so it can synergize with its other stuff easier.
unkempt pagoda
after getting the bugged world splitter on zag stygius, i have a very low opinion on it now, so i can't really say more beyond that
livid dew
So I always use infernal soul cause I like having 3 cast but is stygian soul really that useful?
For cast builds
unkempt pagoda
no need to pick up anything
don't have to wait millions of years to get your cast back from any tanky enemy
near grove
@cunning urchin thanks a lot
cunning urchin
no need to pick up anything
That's my attitude for sub-20 heat. 👀
"Boonless is fine."
unkempt pagoda
stygian doesn't work well on like, hera or beowulf
but on anything else where i'm not doing a cast build, being able to fire and forget is a godsend
livid dew
What about stuff like using the arti wound that damages people.when the cast leaves. Isnt it nice to have more cast to leave the body
unkempt pagoda
eh
cunning urchin
What's Stygian Soul? Mirrorless runs only.
unkempt pagoda
i'm not building around exit wounds
cunning urchin
Exit Wounds works with both Stygian Soul and Infernal Soul.
You'll actually put more bloodstones into bosses with Stygian Soul than with Infernal Soul.
unkempt pagoda
on poseidon sword and hera exit wounds is great, but
livid dew
What about Poseidon sword should you go stygian or infernal. Cause the weapons i use the most are Beowulf shield, hera bow, and Poseidon sword and I want to make sure I have not been using the wrong mirror ability lol. Cause I always went I dhould have 3 cast
unkempt pagoda
the long long dislodge time otherwise makes it not worth
cunning urchin
I would use Infernal Soul for Poseidon Sword.
unkempt pagoda
really the ideal build for any cast build is stygian soul + some chaos grasps
but in practice, infernal doesn't rely on chaos
cunning urchin
Stygian Soul was probably the better choice for Poseidon Aspect when getting extra ammo from Master Chaos was a lot easier in Nighty Night.
livid dew
So if I'm using Poseidon sword, hera bow, and Beowulf shield I should be using infernal soul. But if I'm using other weapons stygian soul is better because my builds dont fully revolve around cast and it makes it easier because you dont need to pick up your cast
unkempt pagoda
it's somewhat easier to get fully loaded now, so i might try a stygian crystal clarity build again
livid dew
It makes me sad fully loaded doesnt give you +3 anymore
unkempt pagoda
basically yes
livid dew
When did they change it to +2
unkempt pagoda
it's the quality of life for me
this update, likely because the easier requirements
cunning urchin
Infernal Soul vs Stygian Soul doesn't matter at all with Beowulf if you pick up Charged Flight.
livid dew
What's that
cunning urchin
Broken Hammer upgrade.
unkempt pagoda
charged flight is a joke lol
cunning urchin
It's for your Special.
unkempt pagoda
noooo you're supposed to use dragon rush and blast foes with your aoe casts!!!!
haha charged flight go bonk
cunning urchin
On Beowulf, it lets you charge your Special for up to +300% damage.
unkempt pagoda
charge for +400% damage
livid dew
See I think I may have seen it and just never picked it cause of I need to use my dragon rush meme
cunning urchin
It also makes the uncharged Shield Throw startup a lot faster on Beowulf for some reason, while still giving some extra damage.
livid dew
That is pretty intense
cunning urchin
I went through 41 heat in under 16 minutes with it lol.
unkempt pagoda
is dread flight mutually exclusive with charged? been trying to get both for a while now
livid dew
Wouldnt this be good with chaos shield though cause that shirld uses the special the most
cunning urchin
Meanwhile Weak from Heartbreak Flourish entirely negated the 10% more damage taken drawback of the aspect.
Chaos Aspect and Zeus Aspect can't get Charged Flight.
unkempt pagoda
the point is that beowulf has just absolutely bonkers base special damage
livid dew
Ah okay
cunning urchin
Yeah, it does 45 base damage lol.
I was doing 488 damage with throws in Tartarus.
mighty ermine
still need to try this before it potentially gets nerfed
turbid needle
Same.
unkempt pagoda
it'd be 45 + 300% for 180 damage boonless lol
livid dew
My last questions to you hades gods. Do you guys do the epic mirror buff or the legendary/duo boon buff or it just matters
cunning urchin
@mighty ermine just jump right into anything 40+ with it, no need for practice.
unkempt pagoda
i like duos so i take duo
livid dew
See I like legendaries so I take it I jusy want to know if my logic isnt bad
cunning urchin
I take rare+ and epic+ literally always. Except I run a lot of RI1, so those two talents go poof~ anyway.
unkempt pagoda
good base boons > duos
mighty ermine
pretty much yeah
cunning urchin
More consistently high damage on my primary means of attack.
unkempt pagoda
a lot of the time, it's gonna be your base boons carrying you
livid dew
That's fair
mighty ermine
and the duo/legendary chance increase isn't really that big anyways
livid dew
That's also fair
cunning urchin
Also with UC, you're selling boons and decrease your odds for dous and legendaries even more.
unkempt pagoda
but i still have to see all the duo dialogue, so i'm keeping it on
cunning urchin
I don't know what heat you're struggling with, though.
livid dew
Nyaanyaa mewmew which cast do you like to use with your Beowulf runs. I'm not currently struggling just chatting.
Though highest heat I succeded is at 20 heat
cunning urchin
If I was struggling on sub 20, my strategies would probably be different from my strategies now for 40+.
I had 1 clear with Beowulf. That was on 41 Heat, and I never used the cast lol. Sorry.
I just seeded a hammer with Charged Flight and used only the Special for the entire run.
livid dew
I just pick a random weapon play at the heat for the bounty and then win and pick a new weapon. But now I have every weapon maxed out and dont know what to do with my life
unkempt pagoda
get that 32
mighty ermine
though maybe not optimal, flood flare -> curse of drowning is fun and still very strong with beo
livid dew
I just dont know if I should slowly get to 32 or just yeet myself to it
mighty ermine
your rush brings you close to enemies anyway for the casts to pulse effectively
livid dew
I also struggle with the time stuff pact. So I avoid them and feel like I made my 32 heat harder then I needed to be
cunning urchin
I just went from 20 straight to 32, FWIW. Took a lot of tries, though.
serene isle
So, did anyone else find out that you can do Malphon's Dash Attack AND Dash Upper on a single dash? Really interesting tech for when you have a Dash-Strike build. Not entirely sure if SG intended it, but it's pretty cool.
cunning urchin
@serene isle yeah, we've been using that a lot! I learned it from Krashercorr awhile ago. Helps Demeter Aspect especially a lot. On the other two aspects it's not that important, however, but can still be useful to speed up certain fights (if you happen to get a good Special boon, which isn't a priority however).
serene isle
Nice nice. So it is known, intended tech.
(As opposed to a bug that might get patched)
I had a run where Chaos gave me 2 rare "dash strike bonus damage" boons
cunning urchin
It's especially useful if you run Hunter Dash, too, because the Dash-Upper benefits from the Dash-Strike bonus, and if you get any Lunge boons from Master Chaos on top of that . . . 
serene isle
So it was useful here.
cunning urchin
That's a speedrun lol.
serene isle
lol it was still relatively slow because I'm still not used to fists. I'm more of a sword man.
cunning urchin
I don't know if it was originally intended, but they seem to be aware of it and not mind at all.
serene isle
"Not a bug but a feature"
cunning urchin
Yeah, sometimes great features were happy little accidents.
serene isle
cunning urchin
@near grove congrats! Stygius really takes awhile to learn. Ironically it's the first weapon you get, but often seems to be the last weapon that people master.
winter rune
Very much agreed
cunning urchin
It also helps a lot when you upgrade the aspects.
near grove
i have 27 blood and still can't choose what to upgrade 
winter rune
Do you have a favorite weapon ? 🙂
Otherwise i can tell you which were my favorite ones to get
cunning urchin
The Zagreus Aspects each take 5 Titan Blood to max out. You could start with that.
serene isle
Yeah you usually want to upgrade your favorite weapon
cunning urchin
The other aspects each take 15~16 Titan Blood.
hollow mural
i still dont know what i like the most..it was the fists
near grove
@winter rune Fists probably, and i think zagreus aspect is strong on them (which i have)
on blade zagreus looks weak
hollow mural
but i dont ereally like the the specials, like i prefer to just not use them
cunning urchin
Yeah, actually. Zagreus Aspect of Stygius is probably one of the weakest aspects of the game, relatively.
winter rune
I like the extra special for the fists
cunning urchin
It's still Stygius, so the moveset is good at least.
winter rune
I'm running artemis special right now with a chaos boon, and everytime it's charged, i press special and something dies, it's hilarious
cunning urchin
Zagreus Aspect of Malphon is plenty strong to beat any Heat.
winter rune
Zagreus malphon is decent and good, especially if you go with something that procs on attack, like zeus or demeter
It's a matter of preference, if you like shoryuken-ing something for 300 every now and then, or if you like to just punch things fast
turbid needle
i guess for zag sword you could stack it up with the plume
cunning urchin
Eh, I'd just run Divine Strike for anything up to 40, then maybe consider something else for 40+. Although, that's also what I used for 41 lol.
turbid needle
hopefully you also get the hermes boon
cunning urchin
With Malphon.
serene isle
Yeah I think Zag Sword is a bit "eh"
turbid needle
that gives you bonus attack scaled to your speed
cunning urchin
I would probably not waste Titan Blood on Zag Sword on a new run.
serene isle
That's some crazy build
You COULD just hope for Hoarding Slash instead
and scale way better right
cunning urchin
Nemesis all the way. But that costs 15 Titan Blood.
serene isle
I mean technically even Lvl 1 Nemesis is plenty good, if I'm being honest
cunning urchin
1 level in Poseidon Aspect can do a whole lot of work with Infernal Soul and a True Shot build.
cunning urchin
Exit Wound is just extra if you happen to get it.
gleaming current
Hoarding Slash seems pretty weak unless you take golden touch and intentionally miss most shops
winter rune
Hoarding slash becomes nuts really really fast
serene isle
@near grove In case you needed a better understanding of what we were talking about earlier: https://youtu.be/MrKAAKKmZqY
gleaming current
You can beat its benefit with a few carefully bought boons
cunning urchin
Hoarding Slash is a bit of a meme. It's pretty fun on lower heats.
winter rune
i got it mid elysium once, and finished hades with 1k gold
gleaming current
But ig it's also rather reliable to pile up on
winter rune
it's fun
serene isle
It's fun with nemesis sword since your crits go CRAZY
winter rune
YES
turbid needle
yup
winter rune
Can you get it on excalibur ? I think i remember a 1700 crit on it
cunning urchin
You're not gonna be doing any Hoarding Slash runs on high heats lol.
winter rune
Yeah, no
cunning urchin
Maybe I should do one for the memes sometime, come to think of it.
turbid needle
i mean
cunning urchin
40 Heat Hoarding Slash sounds fun.
turbid needle
hoarding and excalibur is anti synergy
but you will see some big numbers
and that is its own reward
gleaming current
Ironically weird for the high heat because of CF2 but well again, raw damage vs synergy builds
cunning urchin
With Zagreus Aspect and 1 dash.
serene isle
(also, I have been planning to make a few short-form like 1-2 minute "weapon basics" video for each weapon that shows off all of this community tech like Sword Nova Dashing or the Dash Attack Upper or Spin Dash Cancelling, etc.)
Since I see a lot of videos that talk about weapons in terms of their build paths but nothing about the ACTUAL mechanics/tech to the base weapons themselves, which is sorely needed as a resource.
cunning urchin
You don't need to pick CF2 at 40. And in any case you don't need to necessarily buy anything in the first place.
winter rune
Tell me more about this dash attack upper 🤔
Dash strike then immediately upper with malphon ?
near grove
@serene isle looks strong indeed, thank you for the vid, will it work with Arthur aspect?
turbid needle
dash+special
serene isle
So, did anyone else find out that you can do Malphon's Dash Attack AND Dash Upper on a single dash? Really interesting tech for when you have a Dash-Strike build. Not entirely sure if SG intended it, but it's pretty cool.
https://youtu.be/SNI0pU0PVNE
Just posted a video on it earlier.
@serene isle looks strong indeed, thank you for the vid, will it work with Arthur aspect?
@near grove I believe it works with any sword aspect.
winter rune
Eeeeexcellent
cunning urchin
Do people actually make videos about build paths?
winter rune
Thanks mecha
serene isle
I mean the few videos I've seen on Hades (like Jawless Paul) talk about weapons briefly and their potential in terms of how good the weapons are at beating the game
But no ACTUAL like "Weapons 101" videos
cunning urchin
Special > Dash works with any Stygius aspect. And so does attack 1 > dash > attack 2 > dash > attack 3 for the 3-hit combo with Stygius.
serene isle
Yup.
winter rune
Yeah, like we've seen it illustrated a second ago, people don't tend to like stygius until they learn tech.
serene isle
Stuff like dashing mid 3 hit combo is like nowhere in the game but it really helps if you have stuff like hammers that work off the thrust
I forget if the Dash Strike > Attack 1 > Dash strike > Attack 2 > Dash Strike > Attack 3 works
Or if I'm just fever dreaming.
cunning urchin
You can't dash-strike inbetween the combo. You'll just end up doing the next attack in the 3-hit combo.
serene isle
But that's my point I guess, even the wiki is sorely lacking things like this. I have a decent bit of experience making video guides, so I'll give it a shot when V1 comes out.
You can't dash-strike inbetween the combo. You'll just end up doing the next attack in the 3-hit combo.
Ok so I WAS fever dreaming.
turbid needle
this is actually even more important for Arthur aspect
gleaming current
Video guides in context of weapons moveset alone is quite an important niche ngl
winter rune
you can attack once, then dash strike dash strike, it does the 2 and 3 of the combo
it's pretty much necessary for arthur aspect
serene isle
Right exactly.
gleaming current
Since players would be able to adapt to boons they get
serene isle
Yeah. I still remember when Spear had some awesome "fast spin start" tech, but SG removed it
Huhu.
I guess it's fair since it was stupid-looking.
Just a cool look at what used to be possible with Spear. Not entirely. . .practical, but it was something if you had Fast Spin Hammer.
turbid needle
you spin me right round baby right round
cunning urchin
I mean the few videos I've seen on Hades (like Jawless Paul) talk about weapons briefly and their potential in terms of how good the weapons are at beating the game
I'd take any vid talking about how good a weapon is at beating the game with a huge grain of salt. I'd say there are maybe 15 people qualified to really gauge that, and usually our take is we still don't know enough because there are still so many strategies to explore. Except for some very obvious things like Beowulf + Charged Flight is busted or Chaos Aspect is incredibly strong.
serene isle
I mean yeah that's my point
I don't find big value in those kinds of videos
and would much rather have videos that give people tools to better understand the game
Give them the foundation, not just pawn off a house on em, so to speak.
cunning urchin
That said, I haven't watched any of those videos, so they could be good.
turbid needle
yeah
serene isle
But yeah. let me wait for V1 and git gud with the weapons' properties then Imma make some videos on that.
cunning urchin
That reminds me, I was gonna compile all the strats I've shared here in the server for the Hades fight in one document, but I keep getting distracted by the chat lol.
gleaming current
How easy it is to beat the game with weapon X is heavily subjective to each player's preferences in moveset and pace
So yeah, such videos always come with a mountain of salt in mind
serene isle
(Oh! For the people who don't understand what's going on with the Spear video, in order to spin, you need to Attack THEN Hold to start charging a spin. but there used to be a bug/tech that let you release the spin WITHOUT releasing the Attack button, which meant that the game registered you as holding without having you do an attack animation. This essentially let you "spam" spins like in the video. Said tech, however, has since been removed by SG)
cunning urchin
To a point. Eventually there would be a point where we figure out optimal strategies, perhaps, but we're still very far from reaching that.
cunning urchin
Just a month ago we were barely a handful of people who cleared 40+ heat at all. Now we're up to somewhere around 15.
winter rune
While we're talking strats, bit of a question
cunning urchin
But also horheristo and Haelian cracked 50 now.
winter rune
Is the satyr sack spawning RNG ?
cunning urchin
Well, 50 and 51 respectively.
Sack will never spawn in the first tunnel. After that it's RNG if it appears at the end of the tunnel you chose or not.
Second tunnel seems to have the best chance, followed by the third, etc.
serene isle
But it trends towards getting it on the second or third, from my experience.
untold quiver
This is why I usually grab whatever upgrade I really want 1st (if there is one) then do the hard tunnels, depending on what my build looks like because I don't want them after having been whittled down on a long run
serene isle
Right. I often do 2 non elite tunnels then an elite on the third.
barren otter
the sack also has a higher chance of being in the final room if you have tight deadline because the game likes to put "punish" into "pact of punishment"
turbid needle
LOL
barren otter
happened twice to me at least
turbid needle
sod's law strikes again
untold quiver
It depends on how good my build as been running, if I've got infinite ammo tri laser Zues bolts rail, or hunting blades Achilles spear I'm less worried about the rooms
gleaming current
Second tunnel seems to have the best chance, followed by the third, etc.
so it's possible to assume game rolls 50/50 each door starting from 2nd?
untold quiver
There probably an increased change after the 2nd or 3rd
gleaming current
Well, such system actually would be an increased chance for them:
2nd door 50%
3rd 25%
4th 12.5%
5th 12.5%
So yeah
Would have been nice to datamine that or test with decent sample size tho
hollow mural
for the last 2 mirror of night options, what do i invest into
serene isle
Anyway, it's been a good one, hades chat. Y'all are cool. 
Imma go work out and chill.
turbid needle
I always invest in persuasion
hearty elbow
I have been runny Shady (companion) near premanently until I max out both sides of the mirror (working on the 4th Persuasion right now, then I can start on Authority lol). Is this typically worthwhile, or would the time savings I'd get with a better companion outshine this. To clarify, I'm not actively farming for Darkness, I'm just picking the bounty weapon and running the next heat up, probably until I have all the weapons, companions maxed, with all the contractor upgrades.
cunning urchin
Shady is great if you're not using LC or CF.
And really helps a ton when you're still likely to have screw ups in any chambers or boss fights.
turbid needle
is concentrated beam any good?
serene isle
Is that a hammer? I don't remember the hammer names
turbid needle
ye
serene isle
Right. What does it do again.
turbid needle
improves the ramping
formal fjord
Any opinions on the best cast to go with hera bow? I think ares is quite high up there right?
turbid needle
dionysus
formal fjord
And also artemis right? But you would rank dio the highest?
turbid needle
artemis doesn't make sense to me
dio is super good ye
got my first 32 heat run with that
turbid needle
but I think they also changed hera in the bloodprice update
so idk
dio should still be bomb tho
gleaming current
For the most part it makes sense to load up highest base dmg, so dio and maybe aphro
formal fjord
How would aprho interact with it? I shoot and then the blast is where it ends?
gleaming current
That's what I'd expect yes
turbid needle
dio is buff because you can combine it with duos
and then it gets extremly powerful
formal fjord
Which dous would you suggest?
turbid needle
for hera it's dio because it's an aoe cast
ice wine, scintillating feast
festive fog duos are both ice wine and Scintillating Feast
ye
formal fjord
Mind saying which gods? Havent learned all the names yet
turbid needle
demeter, zeus
formal fjord
Thanks!
And you cant really increase chances to get duos outside of mirror right? Just make sure to have atleast one of each?
turbid needle
you need conditions
for ice wine you need dio cast+ a boon that causes chill
they are listed here
cunning urchin
Well, you could get all the boons from one until the only options they have left are exchanges or the Duo Boon. Theoretically.
formal fjord
hmm okok
untold quiver
What are people liking for the cast with Beowulf? I've just been kind of using what comes but I have definite Favs for my other cast based weapons (Artemis for Posidon Blade, Ares for Achilles Spear, Dio for Hera Bow)
pure mountain
can anyone help with the bow? i honestly don't know what to go for, with the legendary aspect, it just seems so weak
turbid needle
rama?
drunken flourish or thunder flourish work wonders
on attack I usually put on aphro or artemis
untold quiver
Ares is also good, doom special that can be spread and followed up with the transfered damage......but definitely want a heavy hitter on the attack, Demeter, Aphrodite, Artemis
turbid needle
I tried rama with ares special and didnt like it tbh 🥴 but I also never got dire misfortune in that run
rama with thunderous flourish is hilarious
hearty elbow
it got nerfed
turbid needle
it did get nerfed but its still not bad
cunning urchin
Rama's Special got nerfed. Thunderous Flourish itself didn't get nerfed. It still does the same damage.
hearty elbow
it only applies once now
untold quiver
Well you've got two things Boons can work for, single target or multi target.... doom special is more of a multitarget, which I usually just boost to level 2 and leave, whereas I'll put a lot more into raising my attack boon because the transfer is valuable in both situations
cunning urchin
It always procced only once on Rama's Volley. Thunderous Flourish will proc only once every 200 milliseconds per enemy.
turbid needle
in any way dio is the most success I've ever had with rama if that means something, most dmg with my playstyle
untold quiver
For some reason I haven't seen a lot of Dio with Rama yet
hearty elbow
i used it when the volley fired more projectiles. it is only 3 now, so it's a lot more effort to maintain stacks
cunning urchin
I don't remember a time in the beta when the Volley was ever more than 3 arrows on Rama. 
Well, doesn't matter now anyway.
hearty elbow
i may be wrong on that, but it is definitely 3 now, and the special is definitely slower to cast than it was
cunning urchin
Yeah, it's way slower.
3 stacks is fine. You don't actually don't want to hit the stack cap anyway unless it's with exactly 5 hits.
hearty elbow
i switched to chiron if i want to do doom + poison builds now
for bow
why not? don't subsequent hits just knock off the earliest instance of the debuff?
hollow mural
poison build?
turbid needle
I mean
untold quiver
Hangover......it used to be called poison
turbid needle
cunning urchin
why not? don't subsequent hits just knock off the earliest instance of the debuff?
They don't overwrite previous stacks, no.
turbid needle
dio does the most dmg unless you want to click nothing but special for sure
because hangover caps
hearty elbow
oh, that's interesting, didn't know that.
untold quiver
The stack bonus is with weak right?
hearty elbow
yeah
cunning urchin
@winter harbor rarity has no effect on pom scaling, so I think that would just add irrelevant information to the pom menu that would make people even more likely to assume that rarity has any effect on it.
untold quiver
Wait I thought better rarity git better pom increase? Or is it fixed and just because the base is higher?
turbid needle
Fixed, because the base is higher.
Check it with +% Poms, Deadly Strike will always get 8% going from unleveled to level 2.
winter harbor
@cunning urchin Oh, okay, in this regard you might be right. I just thought it was a little odd that this was the only place where the rarity didn't show.
cunning urchin
Rarity bonus and pom bonuses are additive.
cunning urchin
Yes.
amber jackal
To bring back up the sack rng discussion above, I'm pretty sure the 2 vs 3 vs 4 vs 5 sack rng is equally weighted. Technically the individual roll chance increases as you complete wings, but if you math it out, it makes for an even 25% chance each (since to even get the chance to roll for 3 sack, you have to fail your 2 sack roll first). This is my understanding from poking around in the code.
Also I believe they changed the exact implementation of this last patch. Before I was fairly certain it rolled per door after completing 7 chambers, but that might just be me misinterpreting / misremembering the code
turbid needle
I get it most of the time on sack 2
main osprey
2 or 3, for me
Almost never get 5-sacked, I'm not sure it's actually equally weighted
shrewd arrow
Sacks are definitely weighted towards being found in the 2nd or 3rd chamber. It is exceedingly rare that I ever find it in the 4th/5th chambers. It's most frequently the 2nd chamber for me.
turbid needle
Very rude, Charon. I haven't stolen from you in weeks.
cunning urchin
If they're equally weighted, then most of the time the sack will appear before the 5th tunnel. That's just how the math works out.
gleaming current
^
If you get sack in chamber 2, that is 50% chance. If not, then it's 50% chance redistributed between 3, 4, and 5, which is obviously less for all of them
turbid needle
im not good at math 😂
untold quiver
Hmm I'm doing mostly dash strikes and bull rushes lol
turbid needle
Just landed a couple of 1.7k crits with a Chaos Flourish in Tartarus.
untold quiver
Nice...I'm still figuring out my core....and dancing between that a Zues...cause I want to like Zues more
gleaming current
Solo zeus can be pretty neat
You have to pick a weapon with rapid attacks for it though
untold quiver
No I mean between beo and Zues shields
gleaming current
Ah
main osprey
If you can actually use Zeus shield effectively, I have mad respect for you xD
untold quiver
Yeah I've been struggling to find the shield aspect that just "clicks" for me in the fun+ effective department
main osprey
Have you tried maxed chaos Shield? :P
untold quiver
I've got it on the rest of them shoot aspects made me go from having no love for bow to two now that I liked
Eh it's not that fun for me
Shield is probably the least "fun" weapon for me since the aspects which is funny because before it was my favorite, and I like a defensive playstyle in Most games
turbid heart
@untold quiver have you tried Beowulf aspect?
untold quiver
Yes....I'm liking it so far, but I'm not sure yet what core to start with, I need more reps with it
turbid heart
Ahhh
untold quiver
And it sounds wierd, but I'm trying to not use the same core as I use with another weapon
So I might just always be meh on shield, which is fine
turbid needle
beo throw hits like a truck
hearty elbow
gahhhhhh. I can't even meet a 9 minute tight deadline with guan yu on 20 heat. i don't even know what i'm doing exceptionally wrong.
main osprey
GY is pretty slow
untold quiver
Yeah I've been looking at Aphrodite and Demeter starting specials with it
I like Demeter in general and with the load up it's a great ravenous will boost too
hearty elbow
for me it's that spin is dangerous and unreliable in Thes+Mino EM FO2, and spear chuck even with charged skewer starts falling off in elysium
untold quiver
Unless I'm wrong about how ravenous works
turbid needle
when you dont have any stones you get a damage bonus?
untold quiver
Yeah it doesn't count when they are "loaded" as you having them does it?
hearty elbow
it should work as you expect
turbid needle
hrm
hearty elbow
your bloodstone bar still says 0/x
untold quiver
It's a nice boost on Hera, but on Beo it's basically perma damage boost
hearty elbow
yeah raveous will is great on beo, unless the interaction doesn't work that way. worth testing anyway
did they fix the weird thing where beo doesn't block in front of your while charging?
untold quiver
Yes
tawny mica
OK I need help UGH... I keep getting my butt handed to me around the Hydra and Duo Boss fights
not sure what to do, I've collected roughly over 4k Darkness and I'm working on upgrading the keepsakes as best i can but i feel like i keep hitting a wall at some point where things start to get tough
stoic thicket
How much health do you have on average when going in there?
tawny mica
i try to keep it around or above 100
stoic thicket
Try to shoot for 200 towards the end of Elysium.
I personally don't like facing the Hydra with less than 150.
tawny mica
OOF that's quite a few boons missed
stoic thicket
It's quite rare that health and boon are offered simultaneously.
Plus there is a mirror talent that gives you straight +50 health.
tawny mica
i guess i could also equip cerberus' keepsake too at some point
well yeah that's what i'm doing
that said speaking of keepsakes. I'm missing one..
stoic thicket
You have all three death defiances from the mirror?
tawny mica
yeah
stoic thicket
Let me guess: bottom row, leftmost keepsake?
serene phoenix
Is there a guide to the order I should increase heat options somewhere?
tawny mica
left? nah its one of the higher rows
stoic thicket
Which one is it?
stoic thicket
Heat options are mostly personal preference. Mostly harmless ones are usually the first two Extreme Measures, Middle Management, unless you totally dilly dally the first Tight Deadline is also essentially free. Rule of thumb is to avoid anything that gives you more or tougher enemies, or makes the final boss more difficult.
serene phoenix
Underworld Acorn is really solid entity, and it works through multiple areas
tawny mica
I thought so too but damn, tbh i was hoping to have maxed out all the keepsakes by now
serene phoenix
Wait have you beaten the final boss yet?
hearty elbow
FO2 with speed benefits package is one of the sillier things in the game, and i constantly wonder whether it's wise to have BP active with FO2 as a result. Speedy poison darts triggered
serene phoenix
Also should I do heat 1 by 1
hearty elbow
i would start at 5 heat
so you can start doing the erebus rooms
as people have mentioned, it's fairly free to get to that point
stoic thicket
You can take whatever heat you want, there's no need to go one-by-one. You will always complete the highest uncompleted bounty levels.
hearty elbow
the pacts compound off of each other multiplicatively in difficulty so yeah, 5 heat isn't 5x harder than 1
serene phoenix
k ty
stoic thicket
It's a fairly good idea to get used to the first two Extreme Measures. The first one doesn't really do all that much, the second one can be fairly nasty but is usually manageable.
Those two alone give you 3 heat.
serene phoenix
Also, which of the fated mirror talents?
hearty elbow
it's more of a positioning game for the 2nd EM. The 3rd one... I've done 32 heat and I'm still garbage at that fight
serene phoenix
Yeah I just beat the final boss with all of the weapons
stoic thicket
EM3 can be fairly hardcore, Asterius becomes absolutely terrifying.
serene phoenix
So now I'm starting on heat stuff
stoic thicket
As for Fated stuffs, I've turned into a sucker for Persuasions. Authority is nice because it lets you force gods that you want to see but Persuasions make Chaos gates a lot more appealing.
Authority is probably easier to get a reasonable amount of at first.
serene phoenix
Yeah I have 1 Persuasion atm
hearty elbow
prioritize Fated Persuasion 3 above literally everything else, except maybe titan blood
it makes the gameplay soooo much smoother
serene phoenix
Also what about the option above it
stoic thicket
For most of the game I ran Authority though, and that one's cool as well. Both very usable, but for different purposes.
hearty elbow
General consensus is epic is "better" and duo/legendary is "more fun". They're pretty close, depends on what you want to do you with your build
stoic thicket
That is a bit of a point of contention in the community. I usually take the Duos unless I know that the gods I'm gunning for don't have any Duos I might want.
serene phoenix
Yeah I'm considering switching
I've been playing a lot of really strong duo boons like Merciful End
And I'm wondering if it's worth the buff to get those more consistently
turbid needle
can we go through the entire list?
serene phoenix
Or just have better boons in general
turbid needle
is fiery presence good?
hearty elbow
No
turbid needle
yeah
tawny mica
@serene phoenix no i haven't yet
serene phoenix
Oh one more thing, is Aphro cast worth taking? It seems kinda bad
hearty elbow
Shadow PResence
Chthonic Vitality / Dark Regen - Max regen . Vitality is better for early game and for late game Guan Yu, but otherwise Dark Regen strictly better.
Death Defiance - Stubborn Defiance is mostly for high heat exploits
Greater Reflex
Boiling Blood - Abyssal Blood isn't useless, but it should be pretty evident when Boiling Blood is not good depending on build
Infernal Soul / Stygian Soul - Hugely contested in the community. Ravenous Will makes Stygian Soul quite attractive, and some people (like me) like the conveniene of not picking up the bloodstones for builds that will rarely cast. Infernal is probably better in most situations
Deep Pockets - Golden Touch is "Fine" if you want to try farming for extra Titan Blood or Diamonds in Styx shop
Thick Skin
Privileged Status / Family Favorite - Get both, they're both fine. Generally plot out what you'd like for attack/special/dash and if 2 aren't statuses, probably go with FF
Olympian Favor
God's Legacy
Fated Persuasion
unkempt pagoda
crush shot has high damage and pretty great as a shotgun
hearty elbow
my opinions, obv
unkempt pagoda
good for inflicting weak and just getting a big bunch of damage in while in melee
hearty elbow
The biggest jump from quality for boons is Common > Rare. It's not really a contest
In a vacuum Dark Foresight is fine, but it's just not close
fierce thicket
I get the duo boons that I want pretty consistently without gods legacy, legendaries are neat but not that special
hearty elbow
I run a lot of crit builds, and poison builds, and both want multiple duos every run. And if you get RNG screwed, you may only get a certain number of a particular god in a run, so God's Legacy maximizes those odds
turbid needle
hrm
so, fated authority seems really good in styx right?
you can easily get 5 boons from the doors
fierce thicket
Admittedly I avoid charts and try to rely on experience so I don't make too crazy duo boon builds but if i rely on hangover for example I know to try to get curse of nausea and I usually do get it
hearty elbow
It's really good in general, Fated Persuasion just allows you to start the way you want most of the time, which matters more for planning
turbid needle
For the most part, but sometimes doors will get very insistent that you take health, Obols, or a Pom.
hearty elbow
It also lets you "Farm" for death defiances late
and it makes Chaos into not a death-trap
fierce thicket
Fated authority can be useful earlier to farm nectars
main osprey
I'm pretty sure Styx doors still follow the groupings for rerolling doors
main osprey
Mm, right, brain sleepy
turbid needle
in my experience its not hard to get 5 boons from styx doors
hearty elbow
Chaos is such a huge gamble without Persuasion, and seeing how it's one of 2 sources of base damage multipliers in the game, it's def worth just for that
hearty elbow
(the other is hammers)
main osprey
I'm much more hesitant to go into Chaos without any rerolls
hearty elbow
which Authority "kind of" lets you get faster, but you're probably getting 2 before styx in like 80% of runs anyway
main osprey
Wait, how does Chaos multiply base damage?
hearty elbow
by doing exactly that
fierce thicket
Boons that raise attack special or cast damage
main osprey
Don't Chaos boons apply additively?
hearty elbow
to each other
main osprey
So if I have a Chaos boon that says +60% attack damage, that's different than a God boon that says +60% attack damage?
hearty elbow
Damage calcuation is as such:
Base * [ 1 + sum(chaos) ] * [ 1 + sum(boon) ] * [1 + sum(crit multi)]
turbid needle
wew
hollow mural
whats a good boon to chase after as nemesis
main osprey
oh
turbid needle
big if true
hollow mural
im trying it first time
hearty elbow
Heart Rend
main osprey
More crit can't hurt
turbid needle
@hollow mural artemis
hollow mural
okay thankyou
hearty elbow
there are exceptions. Heart Rend is the only multiplicative crit boon
so...
Base * [ 1 + sum(chaos) ] * [ 1 + sum(boon) ] * [(1 + sum(crit multi)) * (1 + Heart Rend)]
main osprey
If you don't mind me asking, where did you get that from? I've only ever heard additive for any boons at all
hearty elbow
fixed*
turbid needle
yeeeee
hearty elbow
sigh, by testing lol. and wiki. if you scroll wayyyyyyyyy up from yesterday here i posted a butt ton of results for a bunch of stuff
main osprey
Alright, fair enough
hearty elbow
because i was tired of the "well I'm pretty sure it's x" game back and forth
main osprey
In that case, thank you very much!
hearty elbow
you're welcome! And while we're at in, Privileged Status and Family Favorites (and everything in the mirror) is additive with boons
turbid needle
basically chaos is its own category
main osprey
Great, so I've been calculating my damage bonuses wrong this whole time :3
hearty elbow
Everyone has
almost literally everyone
Vote for my post in #hades-feedback I made one today make multiplicative/additive bonuses more transparent
winter rune
Pretty good suggestion too, honestly
turbid needle
is dark regen really better than vitality?
hearty elbow
By a lot yeah
turbid needle
ruthless reflex?
unkempt pagoda
yes
hearty elbow
when you get the infernal trove upgrades, the darkness chests contain 150
main osprey
If you're better at dodging
unkempt pagoda
ruthless is a toss-up
hearty elbow
which is usually a full heal
unkempt pagoda
sometimes it's just better to have two dashes
turbid needle
i mean, the near miss thing seems to trigger rather easily for me
hearty elbow
also you get baby heals from wells, along with Shady if you use him (along with his real heal)
Usually it's better to have 2 dashes. Especially with Minotaur and Dad bosses. You need pretty excellent timing to i-frame Dad-spin (especially with FO)
turbid needle
true
hearty elbow
and it's impossible if you're say, dodging the cast-stone waves at the same time
unkempt pagoda
of course, the ideal situation here is ruthless + greatest reflex
hearty elbow
particularly with like, Arthur aspect, which scales absurdly well with... everything, and will be dodging in melee range a lot
i'd STILL take Greater with Arthur though lol, because doing melee without dashes against EM Minotaur is... loose
also chariot rooms in elysium...
wow, i just got a Survival room for the first time in a very very long time. I just assumed they removed them from the game
modest urchin
did you turn TD2 off while you usually run with it on?
hearty elbow
I am so bad at speeding through elysium, I rarely run TD2 unless i'm doing Lucifer or Chaso or something.
main osprey
Or TD1?
hearty elbow
no i always keep td1 on just to see the timer
main osprey
Also, you can turn on a timer in the settings
hearty elbow
I'm a filthy casul, I gave up trying to do medium heat with GY with TD on
Yeah but it doesn't do biome splits
main osprey
Mm, true
stoic thicket
The survival rooms are essentially the sole reason why I always, always run TD1, even when it's just darkness farm. They are just so annoying.
fierce thicket
For me survival rooms spawn more frequently when I use the shield
Which is pretty ironic cuz i just stand in a corner with it
main osprey
Yup lol
turbid needle
its annoying, but i dont think they are run ending?
winter rune
Oh, i mean, when trying to go fast.
They don't kill your actual run but you can kiss any hope of a good time goodbye.
main osprey
Ah, okay
fierce thicket
Survival rooms remind me of cod zombies tactics, just rounding up all enemies and running circles
gleaming current
Hmm
I just realized I either never met survival rooms with TD or it was in Asphodel only
random hull
cunning urchin
@turbid needle Charged Flight + Heartbreak Flourish. Crits are great, too, but Weak completely negates the +10% damage from Beowulf, and the damage you deal is more than enough regardless.
main osprey
I've gotten them in other regions
cunning urchin
Survival rooms don't happen if you use TD.
gleaming current
Huh, my memory tricked me hard then
Also nice to hear they are restricted from happening on td
turbid needle
Yeah, that's a good point.
It was fun nuking Lernie's last phase in a single Heart Rend.
But ugh, Aphrodite's damage bonuses.
Charged Flight charges remarkably quickly.
For not having any range penalty? I think it should take longer to hit maximum damage.
cunning urchin
Damage calcuation is as such:
Base * [ 1 + sum(chaos) ] * [ 1 + sum(boon) ] * [1 + sum(crit multi)]
@hearty elbow do you have your research documented somewhere? I'd like to take a look at it.
@turbid needle a lot of the time, I wasn't charging the throw at all. For some reason, the instant throw is faster with Charged Flight than without lol.
So I just did throw > dash > throw > dash for a lot of fights without any charging.