safety from the anti-stun of armor and also safety in case bruisers show up
#h1-builds-and-combat
raw violet
naive tusk
Gasp! Oh my gosh! Look at you 2 having a civilized discussion 
raw violet
long knuckle also gives you a small degree of extra crowd control cause it's easier to stunlock multiple enemies
sterile portal
Oh dear and now it all goes down hill
cunning urchin
Does Long Knuckle actually affect dash-strikes? I'm not sure.
raw violet
it's been awhile since i've used it so I can't remember
cunning urchin
I never really notice much of a difference. If it affects it, it's not very noticeable.
raw violet
i would think so since I do a lot of the side swiping, to be safe and that's when I notice the benefit of long knuckle more than usual
@naive tusk we have all kinds of discussions, okay?
cunning urchin
long knuckle also gives you a small degree of extra crowd control cause it's easier to stunlock multiple enemies
I think that's exactly what makes it not really work for me in practice. I think all those extra hits on crowds keep you locked in hitstop for longer.
Be nice to @naive tusk.
🔫 
raw violet
Nyx shouldn't have re-hired you
naive tusk
It was just so heartwarming to see the way you 2 are discussing things now in contrast to the usual "this is best and that is worst" 
dry ember
I am best
weak moat
flying cutter is the best prove me wrong
naive tusk
Oh, peaches. I shouldn't have mentioned that 
dry ember
fox is best, peach is better
cunning urchin
flying cutter is the best prove me wrong
I was forced to take it on a 49 or 44 attempt (don't remember which) and died a few rooms later.
You've been proved wrong.
weak moat
weren't pressing it hard enough
cunning urchin
I genuinely tried to apply it somehow.
weak moat
are you telling me that the way flying cutter takes 3 seconds to charge up while standing still, and doesn't even take you the full distance it indicates, is detrimental to the build
dry ember
what challenge?
raw violet
"can we make flying cutter good?"
cunning urchin
peach is best, fox is worst
i feel like that's a general consensus
I agree with that.
cunning urchin
and doesn't even take you the full distance it indicates
It actually does, but the last hit is like . . . super delayed?
raw violet
honestly, i think i'd still take flying cutter over charged throw on zag shield
cunning urchin
The hitbox reaches that far, anyway.
weak moat
but we can see those plains pretty easily from flying cutter
maybe it's good though, honestly
maybe we just suck
raw violet
no, wriste, it's the children
cunning urchin
So many negatives, and we haven't even mentioned that a Dash-Upper can't be charged, so if you try to charge after a dash, you'll whiff a Dash-Upper first.
naive tusk
I'm just going to throw some confetti in, say how I love Aspect of Hades, then poof away 🎉
weak moat
coward
naive tusk
Taadaaa~
Vanishes
weak moat
does aspect of hades love us though
neon fiber
no
cunning urchin
I cleared 11 Heat with Hades Aspect today, @naive tusk.
Was fun.
Deadly Strike + Divine Dash + Deadly Reversal.
weak moat
how do we duel hades with his own spear at 48 heat
neon fiber
aspect of hades allows beard dad to insult us through the spear
raw violet
weak moat
can we ban @dry ember
neon fiber
except not really
it would be nice if some of the gods could speak through their aspects like with chaos' aspect
silver solstice
Is Artemis generally considered to be the best overall god for boons
kindred bolt
no
cunning urchin
can we ban @dry ember
I've been asking for that.
raw violet
since, literally forever
kindred bolt
unless you want a cast build then artemis is probably king
weak moat
artemis is pretty much unmatched when it comes to damage output
but she's not the best in all cases, so it depends on what we're talking about
silver solstice
yeah I seem to get best DPS with heavy artemis when I want any kind of brainless build
kindred bolt
i think aphro is better at everything, especially higher heat
most damage and its debuff kicks ass
dry ember
Hunter Dash Epic is 100% damage up for dash strike heavy weapons
which is essentially 4/6
weak moat
at 40+ heat artemis is pretty solid
cunning urchin
I think the only way to answer that is "it depends".
raw violet
@cunning urchin did some math on it and for a single boon, aphro is stronger and more consistent, but once you get artemis with some % increase (40-50) it'll outpace
weak moat
although there are definitely applications for aphro
it depends is pretty much the only real answer though
depends on your weapon, aspect, heat, playstyle, the temperature, etc
kindred bolt
aphro is great because of the highest damage scaling but you also debuff the enemies to do less damage which can save your life
naive tusk
I think the only way to answer that is "it depends".
@cunning urchin This is not a Civilization thread
lol just kidding
cunning urchin
Yeah, that was for Heartbreak Strike vs Deadly Strike. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c0C5S__GYUO8Cz2ibKhOUu7okqDTqhGRuCzwRlz6X1U/edit?usp=sharing
naive tusk
Nyaanyaa says that Aphrodite outpowers Artemis more reliably the higher the rarity goes~
cunning urchin
Yeah.
weak moat
raw numbers yeah
naive tusk
1 word response demands a poke~
raw violet
yeah but just get both and heart rend
weak moat
although there's something to be said for burst damage
and any crit synergy starts to make arty way better
dry ember
There is also something to be said about overkilling potential too
but with CP2 I suppose that is a non factor
weak moat
but aphro/arty are both fairly similar in terms of dmg output overall
raw violet
there's also something to be said if your 1 occasional crit can 1 shot vs consistent high damage but still requiring 2 shots to kill every enemy
weak moat
^^
dry ember
i wonder how that plays out with Damage Control also
raw violet
rather than thinking about damage numbers, but number of hits to kill can really change some perspective
cunning urchin
Well, consistently requiring 2 shots would be better than requiring 3 shots most of the time and 1 shot some of the time.
dry ember
since critting a shield is problematic
weak moat
although the 1-shot works more with high base-damage weapons - so something like fists probably benefits less
which is probably why lower base-damage stuff doesn't like arty as much
dry ember
I think we need hard numbers for enemies
not just weapons to know which one does more damage
for all we know, lightning strike might outstrip everything with multiple proc
I would love to see the dev maths though
cunning urchin
i wonder how that plays out with Damage Control also
DC doesn't affect a crit build any more or less than other builds, overall.
DC is more about rate of attack.
The slower you attack, the worse DC will affect you.
weak moat
^
I dislike how DC kind of hard locks certain weapons out of certain heats
but it's not that big a deal I guess. just kind of sucks
dry ember
my head is telling me arte will have slightly diminished DPS since you might crit a shield, all else being equal
cunning urchin
No, that doesn't check out.
weak moat
wouldn't know, I'm not a mathmagician
cunning urchin
Say that Deadly Strike hits for 50 on average and Heartbreak Strike hits for 50 always. You attack 5 times without DC, and on average you get 250 damage with crits or always 250 with Heartbreak. Now you attack 5 times with DC2, so 2 hits will be 0 and 3 hits will be on average 50 each. So you do 150 damage with those 5 hits with either one (on average).
lol
dry ember
Let's think of it this way, since we are talking DPS, let's just talk about hit per time period. Let's say 10 hits with first 2 being DC
Actually, 10 normal hit, Arte and Aphro being same
with DC2, Arte can crit shield and lower her damge
cunning urchin
No, that doesn't lower her damage.
I don't even know if you can crit a shield in the first place.
That aside, getting a crit on that wouldn't affect crit chance afterwards.
raw violet
yeah, this is just gambling math now
crit chance doesn't change based on previous outcomes or lack thereof
cunning urchin
Actually, but that's different from what you're suggesting, if you can't crit the DC hearts, then it would affect Hunter's Mark and Hunter Instinct a bit.
dry ember
you can absolutely crit shield
weak moat
pretty sure you can crit DC
raw violet
and averages over time doesn't matter if in one case she crit or didn't crit a shield
yeah, numbers show up for DC
cunning urchin
They do?
raw violet
it's just DC is a health-gate of sorts
dry ember
I would know because I spend almost 30 mins critting DC shield with Zag Bow
raw violet
i've watched people hit Theseus for 2-3k with Meg and watch it strip a DC shield
cunning urchin
The DC hearts melt so fast with Malphon, I never really payed attention lol.
raw violet
the saddest meg
cunning urchin
Well, in that case it doesn't affect Hunter's Mark or Hunter Instinct at all, either.
cunning urchin
Congrats!
dry ember
also it's funny that you only highlight Hunter Dash and Spreadfire
cunning urchin
Well, the other boons were there, too.
tepid trail
yep they're the core boons i keep trying to upgrade
cunning urchin
Oh, you had Jury Summons on.
dry ember
Deadly Strike Hunter Dash Spreadfire is about the most powerful single God combo I think
tepid trail
they blast through enemies, jury summons got nothing on deadly,hunter,spread combo
raw violet
excuse me
cunning urchin
No no, to be honest, I was thinking that run should have been faster if you were spamming Dash-Strike with that build. Makes sense with Jury Summons, though.
raw violet
spreadfire is not a god
dry ember
true #buffSpreadFire
cunning urchin
Probably could have been a little faster than that, though, by forcing Chaos Gates and skipping chambers with shops.
Not to take away from your run at all. That's an impressive time for a 9th clear.
My 1st and 2nd clear were like 40~50 minutes lol.
tepid trail
how do you skip chambers
raw violet
take a chaos gate/shop/NPC
cunning urchin
Yeah.
raw violet
they count as chambers to get to boss with minimal time investment
tepid trail
welp i have the key upgrade from contractor so will try tomorrow !
raw violet
what are you referring to about darkness?
tepid trail
i only have 1 charge of fated persuasion
raw violet
oh yeah
it helps but ultimately getting room skips is more rng than anything
but FP with the key contractor upgrade goes a long way
dry ember
just curious, what is the furthest chamber you went through?
I think mine is either 64 or 68
raw violet
i've never bothered to check
sterile portal
71
dry ember
check it you heathen
tepid trail
how do you check
raw violet
is there a way to check post game?
turbid arch
Haha
dry ember
there is a passage next to the keepsake
turbid arch
"Heat"hen
sterile portal
haaa
dry ember
that leads you to see Tartartus
raw violet
boooooooooo
dry ember
if you stand there a bit it will show you
raw violet
oh really?
dry ember
also petition to ban Icebox
raw violet
i had no idea
dry ember
yeah, it's a Transistor idea
tepid trail
71
stoic thicket
Lemme check quickly.
raw violet
i've sat in those spots but never noticed it gave you a little stat
cunning urchin
Yeah, I agree. Let's ban @dry ember.
raw violet
i'll have to check
dry ember
y'all will miss me when I'm gone
tepid trail
fox keeps changing his name, if he changes profile pic im not even gonna know who he is then
stoic thicket
Farthest reached chamber is 70.
sterile portal
Ugh, time to bring fists up to 10 heat. worst weapon in the game
tepid trail
D:
dry ember
Peach did you see my joke from eariler?
cunning urchin
@dry ember I'm sorry, did you say something?
cunning urchin
Hey, you take that back. Malphon is great.
dry ember
Peach was counting to 3, uno dos poof
Peach disappeared without a tres
When you said you were going to vanish
cunning urchin
Don't make challenge you to a fist fight. 👸🏽 🧤
naive tusk
Yeee~
sterile portal
You'd win as I never use them bad mittens
cunning urchin
cute kittens*
sterile portal
Hey SGG? Why is the Aspect of Demeter not a pair a mittens?
naive tusk
Imma do that again and disappear with a 🎉
sterile portal
Riddle me this game designers?
dry ember
I mean 41 heat is the lowest highest heat done
so it might say something about them fists
raw violet
Resqtoaster almost beat Hades at 49
tough grotto
Don't you do high heat runs
cunning urchin
Oh, he got to Hades? Drunken Strike again?
raw violet
nah
raw violet
back to good old ME
dry ember
ME?
cunning urchin
That's what I thought lol.
raw violet
obviously a super lucky run
dry ember
like me as in you or abbreviation or soemthing
raw violet
oh yeah, no way the drunken strike experiment was going to keep going
cunning urchin
Merciful End.
tough grotto
I can't make merciful end work Idk why
raw violet
he tried a couple others after that run but I think he's now doubling down on trying to get the rng run again for merciful end
dry ember
does he make it out of TA consistently?
cunning urchin
Yeah, that's what I would try, too.
raw violet
i think it's not a bad strat
dry ember
I find myself stuck at the bossfight
raw violet
just try to force the perfect run over time
weak moat
he probably needs to add a level of RI and take out either the CP or DC
raw violet
i'm not paying close enough attention but it doesn't like like he gets very far if I doesn't get the ME set up
weak moat
I know he's high rolling, but he had a pretty ideal run and hades slapped him
raw violet
wriste, you've been watching
weak moat
ye
raw violet
I think cause he's high rolling for ME, he wants RI off so he can reroll
cunning urchin
If he didn't die to TD2, though, there's room for improvement in the Hades fight.
dry ember
is the stream still going?
weak moat
yeah we need to get that consistent hades fight
Idk, I actually just opened it back up
looks like he got the ares/aphro duo?
sterile portal
Yeah if only someone knew how to cleanly fight hades with one dodge
weak moat
IF ONLY @sterile portal
sterile portal
if only
weak moat
although it will required additional R&D to figure it out for melee weapons
I have the juice for anything ranged
sudden dagger
I might be wrong
weak moat
not for melee though, and fists are the melee-est of the melee
sudden dagger
But it seems like asterius mini boss gets harder on MM
sterile portal
You heard it here first folks, wriste thinks fists are bad
cunning urchin
Malphon without Greatest Reflex vs Hades is hard, honestly.
raw violet
i actually think attack-focused fist playstyle is the more ideal melee build
sterile portal
Excalibur one dash when?
weak moat
maybe after the update. idk, so much stuff to do
we need other people to do stuff
other BRAVE souls
raw violet
since with fists you don't need to think about timing attacks and can focus your attention on movement/dashes
sterile portal
What's the current highest heat that rewards bounties? Trying to climb to that first before jumping heats
cunning urchin
Maybe he should go for Blizzard Shot with Talos and just yeet people into his casts.
raw violet
something like sword just requires too much commitment for its high dps combos
weak moat
going for duo boons at 49 heat is pretty yikes
raw violet
@sterile portal 20 is the highest
cunning urchin
Well, he's going for Merciful End, apparently.
weak moat
he is
cunning urchin
Might as well go for Blizzard Shot instead and delete bosses lol.
weak moat
drew
I'm going to unironically take shackles into elysium to see how they do
and actively hope for the bull miniboss
opal glade
lmao im thinking Ares is really trying to send me a message: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/602533349898321931/719263609435455548/unknown.png?width=1204&height=677
cunning urchin
Shackles in Elysium sounds curious. Let me know how that goes!
raw violet
i should save a TA fight so I can figure out the perfect/consistent meg position
i did that at low heat while I was leveling it
weak moat
if you find that kind of science @raw violet let us know
raw violet
i dunno, everything works at low heat
weak moat
but I feel like it's random
cunning urchin
Find the ideal position with one dash and the ideal position with two, then.
raw violet
only true science-ing will be able to tell!
cunning urchin
Might as well.
raw violet
ideally it's just one dash
dry ember
TD seems rough
raw violet
one dash already can position you on theseus, inbetween, or on asterius
raw violet
indeed
sterile portal
I find the typical best position for EM champions is dashing one dash straight forwards between the two of them
raw violet
ooooooh
crimson flower
TD?
raw violet
it hurts
dry ember
lmao
cunning urchin
I've actually thought of just going for Dionysus' Aid first on high heat and then just taking any attack boon I come across lol.
raw violet
you love that dio
weak moat
hmm
cunning urchin
The damage is just crazy lol.
sterile portal
It still creates a strangely diagonal AoE, but tends to hit asterius for sure, and theseus actually runs into it pretty much always iirc
weak moat
well as I said, get our best scientists on the issue
sterile portal
Will continue to test as the unpaid intern of this discord
weak moat
raises hand none of us are paid here actually
cunning urchin
You're not?
weak moat
amazingly no
raw violet
we get paid in sass
cunning urchin
Is anybody else not getting paid or is it just you guys?
sterile portal
I'm getting none money at the moment
weak moat
I get paid in the FAME and ACCOLADES that come from having the highest heat record
cunning urchin
Wow, I'm very sorry for you guys. I guess they just like me more. 👸🏽
cunning urchin
Gold and jewels.
And Lady Aphrodite screenshots for my collection.
Mostly the screenshots.
Well, only the screenshots.
cunning urchin
Yes.
weak moat
think that checks out
cunning urchin
Also I'm the one taking the Lady Aphrodite screenshots.
They let me keep all of them!
dry ember
worshipping a false god smh
weak moat
yeah arty's best girl
cunning urchin
Please. You're off-topic.
dry ember
she also doesn't go crazy trying to kill you with her trial
just a slight slap in the wrist
cunning urchin
Lady Aphrodite never tries to kill me with a trial.
weak moat
after dio's
cunning urchin
I've still never not picked her first. That's not gonna change lol.
dry ember
Aphro send a heat seeking missile to kill you
cunning urchin
No, only you. Not me.
dry ember
that's cray
peak iron
All I can think when I am doing Dio's trial and see all the stuff he throws on the ground is
Muda
dry ember
i'm getting food, keep worshipping a false god.
stoic thicket
Lady Aphrodite never tries to kill me with a trial.
@cunning urchin Best girl Meg tries to kill me constantly, and that's just the spice that our relationship needs.
weak moat
I'd definitely play video games with meg
peak iron
How is fighting to the death part of any healthy relationship?
weak moat
it's not in yours?
stoic thicket
Please don't kinkshame, thanks.
silver solstice
Meg is my waifu
dry ember
You do, I belive
we all deserve love
except Aphrodite cultists
they get the toxic kind of love
peak iron
Deserving and having are two different things. Take Theseus, for example. He deserves love, instead, all he gets is a chariot
cunning urchin
🔫 No screenshots for you. They're all mine.
stoic thicket
Now to be fair it is a pretty dope chariot.
cunning urchin
This is way more appropriate for #h1-discussion, seriously.
That or #h1-story-discussion.
weak moat
so who thinks the next rail aspect should be a chariot
neon fiber
Give me the screenshots and no one gets hurt
cunning urchin
I'm down with that.
neon fiber
cunning urchin
Chariot Aspect sounds hilarious and fun.
weak moat
we could play hades like a racing game
peak iron
I'm telling you, the next rail aspect should be The Aspect of Ahnold, and it should be a minigun
neon fiber
Yeah, why get a weapon reskin when we can mount Exagryph on a Macedonian
cunning urchin
Bonus points if the chariot can roll over magma without taking damage.
neon fiber
I too approve of aspect of chariot
dry ember
Next Rail will shoot gold
weak moat
probably would take damage in magma
dry ember
It costs $400,00.00 to shoot this baby per minute
weak moat
what is this 400,00 number you speak of
neon fiber
Obols*
peak iron
It costs four hundred thousand obols to fire this weapon
For twelve seconds
OOOOHAHAHOOO
weak moat
so zag can shoot it for .00001 seconds in the first chamber
peak iron
Something like that, then it just turns into a melee weapon
dry ember
Somehow this discussion is still not gameplay lol
peak iron
Gameplay speculation is gameplay
weak moat
just go with it
cunning urchin
They should add a yellow dog in the courtyard that we can shoot at.
weak moat
now that I can get behind
peak iron
"Where The Red Fern Grows Update"
cunning urchin
Omg I actually can't stop giggling now.
dry ember
I dislike you already
neon fiber
“This is fine” -target practice dog
weak moat
I think he'd be FINE with it
cunning urchin
🤣
dry ember
Leave this chat
cursive wing
If I get a keepsake from a god (like zeus), any benefit on continuing to give him nectar?
dry ember
Nope
cunning urchin
He'll like you more.
cursive wing
that's important :)(
cunning urchin
Indeed.
naive tusk
If they add a yellow dog in the courtyard, I will hug it to death
I mean, not actually killing it, just hugging it way more than I should 
cunning urchin
That just makes me want to shoot it more now.
sudden dagger
I just discovered that you can press dash and strike at the same time
You don't have to dash and then strike
peak iron
Ultimate Power is yours, my friend.
Stygian Blade has some fun interactions with special and dash too
naive tusk
Flower girl is P- gets shot
peak iron
Married to Cloud, right? They seem perfect together
Haven't quite finished FF7 yet, but I can't wait to see them have a happily ever after :))
dry ember
Yeah uh of course
naive tusk
I didn't know they were married....
But back to topic, Dash-Strikes are fun~
dry ember
I finally figured out how to dash strike spam
And nemesis came from B tier to S tier to me
Love it
sudden dagger
@peak iron I thought fists were the only ones Skelly tells you to dash-special with
raw violet
Firespirit is actually going to get the Hades safe spot removed
dry ember
It's not an official interaction
But you can quickly get out of sword special animation by quickly dashing after it
You can try with Excalibur if you have it unlocked
sudden dagger
I think I've been doing that by accident
dry ember
Ah ok
sudden dagger
Just because I dash all the time to not die
main osprey
You can also dash into it which shortens the animation
dry ember
Solid strat
sudden dagger
I've found that sometimes even if there's so much on the screen that you can't tell what's going on, as long as you keep dashing back and forth through enemies as rapidly as possible, attacking when you can, you surprisingly don't take as much damage as you'd think
But if you miss your opportunity to dash, let's say to do an extra cast
You will get hit by everything
So therefore, dash early, dash often
dry ember
shameless plug
but you can see how dash strike spam can do crazy damage and yet is still safe (relatively)
weak moat
"no olympian boon" has athena dash clickbait confirmed
weak moat
should've done it without dashing
weak moat
the chaddest move
turbid arch
I feel like creating an instagram account.
main osprey
Oh, you did another no core boons?
turbid arch
An instagram account dedicated to how terrible Benefits Package is.
Just imagine living in a world where the first thing you see in the morning checking your smart phone would be a daily reminder that we live in a world where benefits package
is going to ruin your day.
main osprey
That doesn't feel like a benefit
tepid ridge
*bruiser snakestones pointing and laughing
weak moat
We need a 3rd benefits package where a boss gets a special modifier
turbid arch
We need a heat option where bosses get ALL the modifiers.
formal basin
Finally cleared 32 heat !
main osprey
Nice job Coin!!!
weak moat
gz @formal basin
weak moat
now do it again
cunning urchin
Bruiser Snakestones don't point and laugh; they just mercilessly shoot lasers at you non-stop.
They don't do humor.
They just murder you.
And you can do nothing.
weak moat
just backstab them
cunning urchin
The one behind that one was just waiting for that.
All the while your TD2 is ticking away.
No. No. Go away. Don't. Not Bruiser Snakestones. Nooooooo.
I'm sorry, my Bruiser Snakestone PTSD is kicking in.
weak moat
more like T H I C C stones
cunning urchin
When I hadn't cleared 32 yet, I had the smoothest run with Malphon all the way up to Styx.
Then I ran into 5 Bruiser Snakestones. That tunnel took 2 minutes, 50 seconds, and 2 DDs to clear.
weak moat
we've all been screwed by benefits package in one way or another
are you better now or do you need to talk
cunning urchin
sobs
sterile portal
Krasher, either gonna get the hades safe spot removed or imo improve the asterius spin
cunning urchin
I really don't like the EM3 fight much. The regular fight feels much more engaging.
cunning urchin
EM3 is . . . he spins for literally 5 seconds. There's no counterplay to that.
sterile portal
Hence why I want a change to spin
dry ember
Can you even back stab them stones?
cunning urchin
You can't attack Theseus half the time because he's on rails scooting in circles without a care for where you are or what you're doing.
neon fiber
nyooooooooooooom
cunning urchin
And if you try to melee from the front, he runs over you for big damage.
neon fiber
that's why you take shield so he can taste his own medicine
weak moat
wait till we get our own chariot
sterile portal
Theseus isn't too bad to melee, Asterius just stops you
main osprey
I mean, with the right Hermes boon you could probably outrun the chariot
Haven't played with EM yet, but it doesn't take much of a boost to outrun Asterius
cunning urchin
Nah, meleeing Theseus is bad on high heat when you're pressed for time.
weak moat
elysium vs TD2 is a major yikes
cunning urchin
You're not getting a lot of hits in when he's running in circles.
Dionysus' Aid helped so much in that fight.
That and Support Fire.
sterile portal
Doing TD2, EM3 right now with fists, gonna see if theseus is a pain
dry ember
Theseus without EM on FO2 is actually really hard to kill
Since he rotates his shield so quickly
weak moat
just get piercing fire and shoot through his shield
cunning urchin
Just go in after he throws his spear or does the spin. He dies pretty fast. He even turns his back on you.
weak moat
smack his butt
cunning urchin
Dash-Strikes also get him in the back.
weak moat
it's a spicy one
sterile portal
I plan on moving to that after getting everything to heat 10, hence the fist runs
cunning urchin
I see I see.
raw violet
I just stand next to Theseus with the intention of killing Minotaur and he just dies in the process
In non EM3 runs
weak moat
we talking consistently here
cunning urchin
I think I often just focus on Theseus and Asterius dies in the process lol.
dry ember
N=2 is all you need
weak moat
what is N = 2
cunning urchin
Sample size.
sand cape
so if you have hera's bow, and you charge all your stones on it, does it count as not having any stone for the purpose of ravenous will?
main osprey
I focus Asterius usually, if that's what's being studied
weak moat
it should @sand cape
sand cape
now thats is nasty power
weak moat
the study is figuring out if there's a magic pixel where Meg consistently hits both Theseus and Asterius
main osprey
Oh, she usually hits both for me
sterile portal
so EM3 TD2 Theseus wasn't that bad, would have been easier if I had brought meg along instead of accidentally bringing than
main osprey
I don't think I've ever only hit one of them with Meg
weak moat
the goal is to bring it from "usually" to "always"
I probably get double hits fairly often too
but it's not reliable
cunning urchin
I should practice using Battie for high heat runs.
Either that or make sure I get the full value from Bouldy.
main osprey
I've only used it a few times, but I'm pretty sure it's always hit both (I usually say "usually" instead of "always" until I have a moment to think about it)
Just press the button the instant combat starts, they start next to each other so it hits both
weak moat
in any case we don't have a definitive position to stand that hits both, and we want that because hitting both is huge
main osprey
I'm not planning on playing Hades today, but I'll test it a bit tomorrow
sand cape
i like bouldy more special from the interaction with lasers
weak moat
you can hide behind the junk he leaves behind for dad's lasers?
cunning urchin
I wonder if the direction Zagreus looks at affects the summon.
main osprey
For Meg? Yes
weak moat
wait really
peak iron
What's y'all's favorite way to use the Stygian blade
weak moat
Arthur atm @peak iron
main osprey
Can confirm, I've wasted Meg and completely missed a Miniboss
sterile portal
Arthur for beefy boi gameplay
peak iron
I've done some dinking around with Arthur before, it sure makes you feel like an anime protagonist
That swing is so satisfying
weak moat
T H I C C swings and W I D E damage
main osprey
I've only used a couple of the summons, but Meg and Than both rely on the direction you're facing. Skelly doesn't, but I'm pretty sure he just spawns on top of you anyway
weak moat
hmm
raw violet
Maybe everyone’s mistake with meg is moving at all
weak moat
I'll have to confirm this
naw we've tried standing still, dashing between them, dashing next to one/other
main osprey
Seriously though, for TA? Just use Meg instantly, you'll hit both
cunning urchin
i like bouldy more special from the interaction with lasers
What interaction with what lasers?
hollow minnow
OH MY GOSH I FINALLY COMPLETED THE SHIELD WITH NINE HEAT I AM SO HAPPY IT TOOK MONTHS!!!
main osprey
Nice job!
cunning urchin
Congratulations!
weak moat
gz @hollow minnow
hollow minnow
thank you guys!!! 😄
main osprey
Nyaa, I think objects block lasers, including darkness pickups
sterile portal
Congrats!
main osprey
If you aim at a darkness pickup with something like the bow, you'll see the aimbox stop
hollow minnow
Thank you! I'm so happy! I can't believe I did it!
weak moat
probably for blocking dad's lasers/snakestone lasers
cunning urchin
But you wouldn't summon it just for that, you summon when you want the healing.
neon fiber
did somebody say additional science
weak moat
we can always use more science
peak iron
Congrats Janeen! How did your run go?
cunning urchin
Anyway, I'm going to sleep. Good night! . . . or day.
weak moat
nite
main osprey
Cya
sterile portal
Gnight Nyaa
peak iron
Good NYight
sterile portal
Hey what am I looking for on hestia rail? I picked up arte attack, but what else?
weak moat
any crit synergy
battle rage from ares is nice
explosive fire is real fun, so is piercing shot
peak iron
Hestia rail seems like Bow, but Better
Though, I guess that's what guns are supposed to be >>
peak iron
I just hate standing still for any amount of time.
sterile portal
Just died to a Thesius projectile ricocheting off a pillar and having no indicator, feels bad man
peak iron
Yeah, I've taken some shots from him where there was no red indicator and it's always a feels bad man
I feel like EM3 Theseus/Bull could be improved, out of all the bosses, they feel the least fun
neon fiber
Really? I enjoyed the fight
I do agree that the ricocheting could be improved a bit though
peak iron
I don't know how to describe why I dislike it. I mean, I think Theseus lines for the Macedonian are hilarious, but
Maybe it is just that inconsistency in the grenades.
sterile portal
Yeah, the furies feel like a huge improvement, the bone hydra is neat (and with HS that lava becomes spooky)
EM3 Champs feel like they're missing a little bit (Can't melee asterius while spinning, ricochet projectiles from thesius, FO2 Thesius has speeeeed)
dry ember
Alecto saw blade is a real pain
peak iron
I wish it was reflectable T.T
sand cape
i hate alecto so much, it is amazing how easy meg is in comparison
even thisiphone, which btw get obliterated if you reflect her green shower of stars
peak iron
I love artemis boons
magic dagger
Obviously not a first run, but I was pretty proud, very low darkness
wintry plume
oh wow
main osprey
Nice lmao
peak iron
I'm literally drooling at the thought of what I'm gonna get from hermes
magic dagger
"Hey it's food!"
- Zagreus
main osprey
I've never seen that
peak iron
That's
stray stump
Is that some weird edge case where the game can’t spawn anything else?
magic dagger
so now I have:
-gotten tiny vermin on the second run in a file
-gotten every Athena boon (besides call and duos) on the first run in a file
-gotten healing as a room reward
peak iron
What the heck
magic dagger
The game is screwing with me
wintry plume
ok, yes, on the wiki it's written that you can find food...
but what the hell?
what do you mean you found tiny vermin on the second run is this your second/third/fourth save file?
raw violet
Food spawns in early runs when the game hasn’t met certain conditions.
wintry plume
ooh alright then i was confused
You can do first run clear? Isn't it difficult without the mirror?
magic dagger
yes, it's very hard
I have died many times, sometimes with absolutely magnificent builds
for instance, every athena boon
wintry plume
aw bummer, keep trying! If this is a challenge it means someone did it right?
magic dagger
also the classic merciful end + impending doom + athena legendary
wintry plume
not the athena boons
ouch
it... it says you've been playing for a day Lysol
Are you- are you ok?
magic dagger
Yep.
I do that sometimes
JK I left it running overnight, I didn't want to lose progress in a very slow champions fight
naive tusk
You can save & quit
magic dagger
Not if you've taken damage in the room
Fun fact: if you kill yourself before meeting athena in the first run, nyx doesn't appear at the house
I was curious after seeing the "has athena been true to her word" convo so many times
main osprey
Huh
magic dagger
I was hoping for either "no" or "I don't know"
magic dagger
As I said, it was a very slow fight
my dps was nonexistent
probably in the twenties
I'll be killing myself for a while, let's see what happens
when you get the "have you considered dodging the thugs" voiceline from hypnos and zag says "I haven't, no!"
and it's actually true
Dying more than once gives you nothing, the 10 darkness bonus at the mirror is a one-time thing
dry ember
Literally every run ends with death
sudden dagger
Ah, the choice between Greater Recall and Greater Reflex with 3 dashes.....
peak iron
Greatest Reflex no question
sudden dagger
I feel like the dashes are better
peak iron
UNLESS you've got a sick nasty build for your cast.
sudden dagger
But one says legendary on the tin :o
Nah this is a sword and so far I've gotten ares
magic dagger
Literally every run ends with death
@dry ember I meant without actually killing/collecting anything
dry ember
Take recall for prophecy
sudden dagger
I did that already, or else I probably would
naive tusk
When in doubt, remember this wise word of advice: https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/520688402958516254/718530976418103406
sudden dagger
Last run I almost chose posidon's sunken treasure (epic) to see if I would get a diamond, but it was up against a duo
Too bad it's not pinned anymore
naive tusk
I unpinned it because it was creating unrest 
sudden dagger
Also, is it just me or does the money treasure trove also sometimes give a bonus nectar randomly
main osprey
I was wondering about that
naive tusk
Any trove can randomly contain a nectar 🥃
weak moat
look at all that D 0 0 M
magic dagger
just kidding I'm just going to try for hunting blades now
weak moat
blades go brrrr
sudden dagger
You can't have dire misfortune and impending doom at the same time can you?
sudden dagger
Dude nice@magic dagger
magic dagger
engulfing vortex +vicious cycle came in clutch in the meg fight
I somehow literally ended up with my fingers on the wrong keys, but 617 damage doesn't care about that
sudden dagger
I just got flurry strike. I hope I get dire misfortune now
magic dagger
how embarrassing
the power couple killed me
main osprey
Oof
sudden dagger
So if I have one stack of doom, that's 125 damage, + 70% is 212.5
If I have dire misfortune as well, does two stacks equal (125 + 5) + 70%
Which would be 221 total
magic dagger
You're the one with both boons, just look at the doom numbers
if it's lower then impending doom doesn't affect stacks
peak iron
I really do despise the power couple.
It always throws me for a loop that I can't destroy her projectiles
neon fiber
whose projectiles? alecto's beyblades?
sudden dagger
Where's Skelly when you need him
peak iron
Giant Evil Dusa's
astral phoenix
He's busy being outshined by every other summon
neon fiber
oooh those
you can always athena them worse case scenario
did you know you can petrify slamlad with evil dusa's projectiles?
astral phoenix
I strive to do that every time I have deflect anywhere in my kit
Especially as annoying as that fight becomes on MM
sudden dagger
I'm going to die trying to find this answer, heh
I was doing 380 doom damage from a bunch of stacks. I'll try harder
That time it was 308
magic dagger
click once for 2 stacks
you have flurry slash right?
sudden dagger
Yeah. I'm at the Hades fight now though, and I just upgraded impending doom to level 3
I heard that if you're standing right next to him while he lasers you don't get hit?
Anything else that would help with the sword fight?
weak moat
daddy haelian's streaming 50 heat runs right now
sudden dagger
:( his lasers
sterile portal
Wriste, you also aiming for 50 heat i'm assuming?
weak moat
not right now no
I'll probably hop back into the high heat stuff when the new update comes out
for now I'll probably just be messing around
untold vortex
best to put that in #self-promotion Wriste 
dull saffron
Is it worth investing in any of the Malphon weapon aspects?
untold vortex
if you're not sure, you can always ask 
we mods won't bite I promise
yes, I like the zag aspect a tonne
dull saffron
Cuz I was thinking of investing blood into either Zagreus aspect or Demeter
untold vortex
I haven't played with the other aspects much though
raw violet
Zag and Demeter are the two better Malphon aspects
Demeter really needs heavy investment to shine
Zag is great off the bat
also depends on whether you really like using the special or not
sand cape
i feel talos pull is fun and all but the damage dont cut it in a weapon that really prefers either the dodge from zag or the burst from demeter
sterile portal
Athena attack on fists is just disrespectful
hushed ledge
It's so good
sterile portal
@cunning urchin I'm sorry I take it back, fists are okay with athena attack at least
hushed ledge
Did you really try to say Athena fists weren't good? 
untold vortex
Fists with ares attack, athena dash and merciful end is a strong build
raw violet
not just a strong build, arguably the strongest overall DPS build for fist
a contender would be artemis special demeter
dry ember
My Dio 👊 suggests otherwise
sterile portal
Yeah, I don't want to admit fists are good
but after using athena fists, I genuinely think it might be one of the better high heat things to hunt for?
cunning urchin
Divine Strike is how I cleared 41.
weak moat
curious about how consistent the fists are in terms of reaching hades
sterile portal
I think it's definitely worth looking into athena fists for high heat
DC2 is not a problem
FO2 is not a problem with deflect everything
EM3 Theseus... may be a problem
cunning urchin
Well, the highest recorded fist run is with Divine Strike, like I just said, so yeah.
naive tusk
Looks like someone is awake 🌻
weak moat
welcome back tot he world of the living
naive tusk
Aaaand the bragging returns, just like Lightning except there's no choco-chow
Just kidding
sterile portal
Are you saying Nyaa needs more kachow in their life?
naive tusk
Yes.
weak moat
so braggadocios
naive tusk
Whatever that is, it sounds yummy.
weak moat
by the way
cunning urchin
Wait, have I just been compared to Lightning?
weak moat
I have the highest recorded heat
cunning urchin
I'm definitely not complaining.
naive tusk
Maybe.
sterile portal
Oh no and like that the bragging spreads
naive tusk
And I'm out~ 🎉
weak moat
ew lightning
never liked her too much, although to be fair I didn't play the games very hard
cunning urchin
@naive tusk @sterile portal what highest recorded Heat thing have you two done?
naive tusk
32 because I like chill gaming 🥁
sterile portal
Highest I've done so far is when I jumped from 5 heat to 19 heat on bow, to finish that one fates' quest for all the different heat options
Finished getting all weapons to heat 10 tonight, still climbing bounties for rewards
sterile portal
Yeah, I'll join the rest of you at higher heats after I get everything to 20 lol
But for now all my "high heat" comments are pure theory
Luckily, I'm often pretty good at theory
cunning urchin
It's a hypothesis.
raw violet
I believe it in theory
weak moat
when I record it DESTROYING asterius
sterile portal
But i'd assume it's a meme > theory
weak moat
it'll go beyond theory
weak moat
that's what people said about stubborn defiance
raw violet
Do the pillars in the final fight even rubble though?
sterile portal
Really? Stubborn defiance is good tho
raw violet
I’ve not paid attention
raw violet
Hmm
weak moat
but no rubble
sterile portal
I'd imagine that in a lot of cases by the point asterius gets wrecked by rubble, you've done enough damage to him for it not to matter
dry ember
It's kinda heart warming to see the Crutch™ getting more popular.
weak moat
wait what do we mean the Crutch
dry ember
Ask the current record holder for fists
sterile portal
Now I'm tempted to do high heat runs on fists just to quiet this all down
weak moat
@cunning urchin what's the Crutch
dry ember
Also I don't like what I just typed lol
weak moat
lol
dry ember
Should stop feeding her ego
cunning urchin
He's been calling Divine Strike + Zag Aspect "crutch" because that's all I'd been using for 0–20 Heat pretty much, and he's jealous because I'm just better in every way.
sterile portal
Why are there no cat paw fists aspects? SGG what are you doing right now?
weak moat
hmm
sterile portal
Divine Strike fists in general is stupid strong
dry ember
Don't give them any idea now
cunning urchin
Nyaanyaa Aspect in honor of the current record holder.
sterile portal
But I would assume demeter > zag at a certain point
dry ember
Hence Crutch™
hushed ledge
Zag is attack speed
Which I'd assume means more uptime on deflect
And also more raw dps
cunning urchin
Also 15% Dodge.
raw violet
Demeter is maybe better for a pure speed run
sterile portal
I'm not fully sure how attack speed works on the fists, it looks like it starts the next fist attack combo sooner rather than speeding the combo up itself
weak moat
2 built in hermes boons Pog
dry ember
15% dodge actually can mean more than 15% effective HP
hushed ledge
15% dodge is definitely better because it means that you aren't interrupted
sterile portal
15% dodge can effectively be multtiple DD tbf
raw violet
But I think general survival and high heat runs, Zag is generally safer and more flexible
dry ember
On high heat when things overkill you, dodging means you negate raw damage
sterile portal
not rae damage!
dry ember
Don't make fun of me.
weak moat
we're not
cunning urchin
Oh I forgot, you don't do high heat. You die in Asphodel.
weak moat
getting roasted on live television
dry ember
Talk to me when you 6x32
raw violet
It’s damage so raw it makes fox squeal “eeeee”
dry ember
Peach I'm being bullied
raw violet
True respect 6x32 way more
sterile portal
Nyaa your current highest fist run is 41 right?
cunning urchin
Yes.
hushed ledge
20x32 is my true goal ngl
raw violet
True adaptability with 6x32
sterile portal
so 42 would be more than 41 right?
cunning urchin
Correct.
sudden dagger
I would like to take this rae opportunity to point out that Zagreus pronounces the ae in Daedalus logically, but Thesius pronounces daemon the dumb English way, thereby sounding more like a jerk.
sterile portal
I'm thinking about making mistakes, be back in a little
cunning urchin
lol gl gl
dry ember
weak moat
42 is only 6 below the current record
raw violet
Lol
hushed ledge
Just do 49
dry ember
Patrick I was by your side your first run, why you do me dirty
raw violet
And 7 below the current fist work-in-progress
hushed ledge
If you're doing 49 may as well do 50
weak moat
wips don't count
cunning urchin
But on Hell mode, though.
How can you claim you're responsible for your run without personal liability.
raw violet
They count if they get farther than anyone else
dry ember
Make a Hell Mode save to one up Nyaa with the extra heat from Personal Liability
raw violet
Who’s on hell mode?
dry ember
Aye not me
raw violet
It’s theoretically free
dry ember
The grind be too long
raw violet
But I hypothesize it’s not that free
hushed ledge
What does personal liability do?
dry ember
To me PL is similar to HS though
raw violet
I think personal liability at 40+ heat is more dangerous than we think
magic dagger
Nyaanyaa Mewmew got a lot of use out of not having PL on her 41 heat run
dry ember
PL gives you a shield when damage you take go above a certain threshold
hushed ledge
Ah
dry ember
Basically One Shot Protection
raw violet
Just think of all the times where you got ganged up on by exalted spears and managed to get away
dry ember
When you play Mario and you have the invincible frames if something hits you, it's like that
raw violet
Or mistimed some dashes at a wizard
dry ember
Just think of all the times where you got ganged up on by exalted spears and managed to get away
Ok free is exaggeration, but I treat it like HS
hushed ledge
Mario sucks but I get your point
raw violet
Does it apply to the small invincibility window after a DD gets used too?
dry ember
Of course, speaking from someone who never used PL lol
sand cape
What aspect would you people say are clearly at the bottom of the list outside of the zagreus ones that is
I feel zeus and hades aren't influential enough
Not sure if I like talos either
hushed ledge
Zeus could use a damage buff but it's definitely not that bad
cunning urchin
You think +150% damage isn't influential? 
hushed ledge
Tbh I prefer the idea of having more control over zeus
sand cape
Maybe if you could control where the disk will go and stay?
sand cape
And hades require you to use the sweep which is quite a risk
hushed ledge
Straight up just have Zeus move while you're holding the special button
You can have it stop you moving while you're doing that or not, I prefer it not stopping you tbh
stoic thicket
The sweep is just a bit awkward to use, and quite dependent on getting the right hammer upgrades imo.
sand cape
Think is Zeus disk with deflect is like a tiny defense zone
If It ticked faster it would be broken
hushed ledge
Just let the player have more control
weak moat
zeus shield is pretty good
hushed ledge
Treat it like a puppet rather than how it is now imo
sand cape
Maybe it just get outshine too hard by chaos shield
magic dagger
it follows you when you recall it, which I have used to absolutely cream shieldbois
raw violet
It’d be nice if someone had recorded their Zeus shield high heat run
hushed ledge
Yeah rn the big use of Zeus is just recalling it and dragging it behind you which is boring
raw violet
Too bad we’ll never know
sand cape
What about fists? What's the consensus
sterile portal
lol
sand cape
I never do well with them the ultra short range really hurt
stoic thicket
Talos on high heat is kinda asking for it as the pull doesn't stagger IIRC, the other two are great.
sudden dagger
This run, I have cast boosts from chaos and two extra stones... Ok it is time to try demeter's cast
raw violet
Did you want a strong cast or just a fun run?
sand cape
Without crystal clarity Demeter cast is rather meh
raw violet
Cause Demeter cast only fits one of those descriptions
sterile portal
please athena i just want attack
cunning urchin
Basically, all the hardest-hitting attacks in the game are especially difficult for melee to avoid. So Malphon requires extensive use of Deflect or a whole lot of skill to make it work on high heat. But Zag Aspect + Divine Strike is probably the best place for Deflect in the game.
Divine Dash works really well on it, too.
I used Divine Strike on 41, and resqtoaster used Divine Dash on 40.
weak moat
divine dash is a crutch
sand cape
Hmm so that's why they use zag fists for the extra speed
Oppose to Demeter extra burst
cunning urchin
It's more that the Uppercut is unsafe on high heat.
sand cape
Too long animation?
raw violet
The attack speed on Zag is especially beneficial with Athena because on FO2, some enemies can still get off hits in between
cunning urchin
Too much startup and recovery, yeah. So if you're focusing on Attack anyway, just go with Zag Aspect.
Divine Strike on Demeter Aspect works well, too, but with Zag Aspect it's just better for obvious reasons.
raw violet
In my experience
sand cape
Also the extra dodge for defense
sterile portal
athena just did not feel like giving me attack there, but got to meg with 1:30 left so woo, slow improvements