h1-builds-and-combat

[proven robin]

And like...adding more cost to that just seems...excessive.

[dry ember]

No matter what you.do, you can't run away from yourself

[mystic vale]

Syd: CF doesn't affect the Diamond or Blood prices.

[proven robin]

...Oh!

That...is a huge relief.

[mystic vale]

...Just everything else there. :p

[raw violet]

someone had feedback about getting dodge triggers while blocking with shield, does that trigger ruthless too?

[sudden dagger]

Oh, so if you avoid something with dash you get a damage boost? For some reason I thought it was if you got hit with something, your would get those benefits. This is now a lot better than I thought it was

[cunning urchin]

Only dash can trigger Ruthless Reflex.

[sudden dagger]

I don't know how to use the shield. When I stand still, things don't go so well

So I pretend the shield is the sword

[mystic vale]

You hold the attack button to block with shield (and charge Bull Rush.)

And Ruthless Reflex is bloody amazing, especially if you're regularly living long enough to get both Hermes boons to up your chances of +1-3 dashes.

[cunning urchin]

Don't sell yourself short, Mewmew.

<-- Five Feet of Fury

[sudden dagger]

I know the buttons to press, but whenever I stand still long enough to charge the shield, usually something hits me from the side or back

[dry ember]

Back against a wall.

[cunning urchin]

I've used only Ruthless Reflex up to about 20 heat. After that, extra dashes just seem too important. Maybe I'll try it again, though.

[dry ember]

Charge up dash out

Special

Dash back to corner

Rinse and repeat

[cunning urchin]

With the first shield (Zagreus Aspect), I use mostly just the special, personally.

Block and Bull Rush for certain attacks that are telegraphed or predictable.

[dry ember]

The hype in this Discord seems to be Bull Rush Special with Chaos Shield.

[cunning urchin]

Chaos Aspect is objectively the strongest shield.

[proven robin]

The Zag shield is fine. I just like to move and bunch everyone up so they're all on one side of me before I start zooming back and forth with Attack + Bull Rush.

Basic strat with the shield, maximizes the ability to block attacks, mix that in with just slamming people into walls and more evasive Dash-striking and you've got a style that plays to the shield's advantages.

[raw violet]

you can spam special with zag at point blank since it immediately bounces back

decent damage if you also have explosive return

[cunning urchin]

I should clarify that I use Explosive Return for big AoE or Dread Flight for DOT. Getting both with Heartbreak Flourish is also great for applying weak and dealing great damage with the catch.

[sudden dagger]

Or in the lag time between holding x, and when the shield starts, there's already enough spam coming that kills me

[stoic thicket]

https://i.imgur.com/tqMIIj5.png

That was a lot of very high class boons...

[mystic vale]

"You're getting quite predictable when you betray me like this, Zagreus."

[minor valve]

does anyone know what the second form of stygius does? when you special?

[mystic vale]

Sorry, Artemis, but your Trial game is weaksauce.

I'd rather deal with your poorly aimed arrows, Zeus's superbolts, or Aphrodite eating my face off.

[cunning urchin]

Nemesis Aspect's Special gives your normal Attack a chance to deal critical damage for 3 seconds.

15~30% chance depending on your level.

Basic crit damage is x3 (or +200%).

[minor valve]

second form meaning the 4th nyaa

im trying to avoid giving spoilers here

[dry ember]

I got you in the spoiler channel

[mystic vale]

Forgive me mother, for I have sinned. I spent 150 gold in Elysium. 😦

[cunning urchin]

I sometimes spend a lot and don't get much out of Golden Touch. You just gotta go with it.

[mystic vale]

I wanted over 200 life and I needed a quick heal. 😦

[untold quiver]

The first time I try a damage increase in the pact I usually take the 100gild at the start just in case I need some early heals......or if I'm gunning for a specific builds so I want to be able.to.buy shop boons

[cunning urchin]

Never get too attached to a strategy like "I gotta save my money up for Styx" anything like that. Gotta be flexible.

[mystic vale]

But I must also have discipline!

[dry ember]

And do you know what's good for flexibility?

Deep Pocket

[mystic vale]

Kama sutra?

[dry ember]

But yes that also, I suppose...

[untold quiver]

Yeah my higher heats are with weapons that I don't feel I need to force any boons on and can just pick up based on what I get

[mystic vale]

I do love having that third summon charge for Styx

[cunning urchin]

Golden Touch gives you way more money on average in a run.

[mystic vale]

There was literally a guy asking to nerf it yesterday.

[dry ember]

And was downvoted

[raw violet]

not for me, i spend obols regularly

[dry ember]

Also there were other people who disagreed, myself included.

[raw violet]

so golden touch is worse for me

or at least the payout doesn't occur til styx where i don't really need it

[mystic vale]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1018322321468578049/B8A63F9DAC4AF7A5C9D1C2E453C0A47EA9D71439/

My weakness costs me. Oh, what wonders I could have worked with that extra 172 coin. 😦

[untold quiver]

I've farmed a bunch of Titan blood from 0 heat golden touch runs tho

[sudden dagger]

I chose Artemis against Zeus in a trial, and Zeus's wretched louts were pretty punishing...

[dry ember]

Get the Titan Blood

[raw violet]

yeah, but i can just farm titan bloods from playing the game

[dry ember]

You may or may not get it from Hades

[raw violet]

and focusing on maximizing builds during runs

[dry ember]

Money now better than potential money in the future

Economics 101

[cunning urchin]

@raw violet do you have Convenience Fee on 2? I usually play with that, so I'm saving money for later and skipping most shops anyway.

[sudden dagger]

Also, it is pretty obvious to check out your aspect upgrade after Skelly tells you to go look at it, and Zag says to himself, yeah I should so that

*do

[raw violet]

no, my preferences are EM, FO, and TD

and then some convenience and lasting consequence

[cunning urchin]

What heat?

[mystic vale]

Oh, I'm getting the blood. I just also could have gotten the Zeus boon and pom.

Ah, well.

[raw violet]

i pump up stuff like middle management and benefits before i got higher on convenience

but

even with convenience

i'm saving even less

[mystic vale]

It's my first run of the day and has been sloppy, so end boss may push my head in an uncomfortable place.

[raw violet]

since i still have to spend more

[mystic vale]

But I do have rockets critting for four digits, so I have a chance.

[dry ember]

That's a Tuesday for Deadly Strike Arthur.

[untold quiver]

My problem with Arthur is if I don't get deadly strike....I don't do well

[cunning urchin]

Interesting. I mostly only spend money on healing until Styx, that's not very expensive either way.

[untold quiver]

And I'm trying to avoid any more of that

[raw violet]

i make efforts early game to stack my build

nothing like getting a duo boon by the time you get to fury sisters

[cunning urchin]

What weapon(s)?

[raw violet]

all of them?

probably except for spear

if im running guany yu which i usually am

[mighty ermine]

i spend pretty regularly like you do

so i typically run DP

just for a strong start

[raw violet]

i guess for any build where all i need is an artemis and some chaos, i'm saving more

[dry ember]

All I need is Spreadfire and Hunter Dash

[cunning urchin]

Malphon is not very demanding at all. I can clear up to 20 heat consistently with pretty much just Divine Strike, Hunter Dash and Greatest Reflex. Anything else is just extra.

[dry ember]

The rest is history.

[mystic vale]

Nope, failed to fail. First Rail 3 win, first without Spread Fire.

[raw violet]

i do think malphon is my favorite

[cunning urchin]

I play mainly with that.

32 heat now is definitely more demanding. I've tried Deep Pockets, but so far I'm finding Golden Touch more useful.

[mystic vale]

But then I made one of my fatal mistakes again. 😦

[mighty ermine]

i did all my 32 heat weapons with deep pockets myself

didn't cause any issues for me

[lament coral]

Golden Touch is better if you have increased shop prices modifier, since you're not likely to have enough gold in Tartarus anyway

[dry ember]

If I clear 32 heat with all weapons

Am I a progammer?

[raw violet]

sort of similar to my views on the darkness as health mirror

[cunning urchin]

Well, I definitely wouldn't call it an issue. Just I find I tend to get more money still out of Golden Touch.

[raw violet]

i don't like it as much as the 3 per door

since i'm not having health issues early game

and there's no darkness in styx where the 3 health is just a little nice thing to have between all the rooms + poison

[cunning urchin]

Golden Touch is better if you have increased shop prices modifier, since you're not likely to have enough gold in Tartarus anyway
Yeah, I always have that on 2.

The well in Styx heals me to full anyway.

[lament coral]

au contraire, darkness healing has been my go to talent

[raw violet]

it's definitely not a make or break kind of thing

[lament coral]

one darkness trove heals you to full

[dry ember]

Relying on that for healing is ...

[cunning urchin]

Extra healing after bosses is nice, too.

[lament coral]

not to mention those darkness clumps you get from wells

[mighty ermine]

using darkness troves as emergency heals during particular 32 heat runs was definitely nice

[lament coral]

it's better than getting +0 from changing rooms when I'm at full HP

or getting +3 when I'm at 1 HP

[mystic vale]

The Fates have decreed that Malphon happens.

C'mon Divine Strike. Trinket, don't fail me now.

[raw violet]

again, no troves in styx

but i'm not saying it's bad

[mystic vale]

I still have 10 trinkets at one star and three at two. 😦

[lament coral]

sure, that's the only real downside

[raw violet]

i get that it's quite good

[lament coral]

but then again, there are wells in Styx, too

[raw violet]

but i just don't prefer it

[lament coral]

plus, the sack heals

[raw violet]

yes

i'm mostly for the poison mitigation

[mighty ermine]

i typically try to save extra shady uses for styx, so i honestly don't find myself lamenting lack of darkness for healing before the final boss if i need a pick-me-up aside from the sack fountain

[raw violet]

true

[tepid ridge]

I usually take the spearpoint for Styx to mitigate poison/lasers instead of door regen. Yea, Shady companion is my boi for that, so much HP back even on the final boss

[cunning urchin]

My poison mitigation is destroying everything in seconds and dashing into the next room after 1-2 tics, if they don't die before they can poison me anyway. (Plus, Divine Strike punches most poison darts right back at them.)

[mighty ermine]

it's rare that poison will be my main concern in styx nowadays, after they reduced the damage rate

[mystic vale]

I should proooooobably take off High Confidence for Malphon.

[cunning urchin]

I did some runs with that around 12~16 heat, I think? It's fun.

[raw violet]

i find malphon easier to keep hp high for most of a run, ironically

especially if you're running divine strike

[cunning urchin]

Yeah.

[mystic vale]

Got hammer. Athena hasn't yet visited.

[cunning urchin]

Just go berserk for invincibility.

[raw violet]

stunlock too good

[neon fiber]

kill them faster than they can kill you
don't need to deflect enemy attacks if they can't attack you because they no longer exist

[mystic vale]

And then she shows with Flourish, Dash, and Phalanx. Ah well. Dash for now.

[cunning urchin]

Dash-striking projectiles with Malphon is one of the most satisfying things to do in the game.

With Divine Strike, that is.

[neon fiber]

bouncing a satyr's projectile back is peak satisfaction

[mystic vale]

Wow, four deity boons before chamber 10. From different deities. Go Family Favourite!

[novel prawn]

malphon aspect of demeter is actually insane once you max it

[cunning urchin]

I prefer Zag Aspect.

[mystic vale]

Sadly I am not yet loaded with so much blood that vampires follow me around and beg for handouts.

[novel prawn]

lol

[dry ember]

Zag Aspect comes with a great discount

[novel prawn]

true, true

[dry ember]

5 blood for a maxed out weapon is neato

Zag Bow

Zag Fists

Zag Rail

All good

[novel prawn]

hey, I'm just saying... max out demeter aspect, and ||get crit chance on special||. I'm already loving it

[dry ember]

True that

Remind of the time I fought Alecto with upper cut only due to Chaos pact

But I yote her back to the Styx river

So yeah

[young gorge]

chaos pact has made me done very many silly things

i tried surviving with only spear special and no cast

in asphodel

with skewer

it was not a good time

[dry ember]

At least there is not a No Dash pact

Boy that would be spicy

[young gorge]

you can dash... you just gotta suffer the consequences each time

[cunning urchin]

That's easy.

Just take the Aspect of Ice Wine.

[dry ember]

Someone should attempt a dashless run

There is a no attack no cast no special Hades fight

[cunning urchin]

Or the aspect of "my shield explodes rooms".

[raw violet]

i'm pretty sure haelian has a dashless run

yeah, he does

[dry ember]

Is that so? I can't seem to find it.

[raw violet]

well, unless you count the 2 dashes he used to get to and out of euridyce

[cunning urchin]

Yes, I do. Fraud run.

Smh.

[raw violet]

lol, run it back

[dry ember]

Hmm I find a dash only run

[raw violet]

i think there might've been another dash to cross some styx gaps too

[dry ember]

But no dashless run. What's the name of the vid?

[raw violet]

not sure, but the likelihood is high

[dry ember]

Ok

[cunning urchin]

Was the dashless run with the aspect of room-exploding shield?

[raw violet]

"can we beat hades without dashing"

no

aspect of spear-throwing

the good one

not the rush one

[dry ember]

Got it thanks!

[mystic vale]

81 escape attempts, 22.6k slains.

I can haz Bouldy!

[cunning urchin]

You finally got it? Very nice.

[mystic vale]

Finally is the word.

Had enough Ambrosias hanging around to give it four charges.

Hera bow run, will check the heat in a moment. I still need to get Curse of Longing and Blizzard Shot.

Does Blizzard Shot work with Hera bow?

[hazy yacht]

not the rush one

but... 250% damage casts.. for free...

[cunning urchin]

I think I've heard it does. I haven't used Hera Aspect in awhile myself.

[raw violet]

yeah, but that's the aspect of cast throw-to-cast spear

run around only throwing the spear with achilles is pretty meh

[mystic vale]

Flood Shot and Frost Flourish should be nice in any case.

I think I'll take Demeter first. That is a really nice Flourish, and Nourished Soul wouldn't suck, either.

[hazy yacht]

that's the one i meant

[mossy breach]

Hera should work with blizzard shot, but the aiming is probably going to be bad, blizzard shot moves very slowly and pushes the enemy a lot

[hazy yacht]

achilles spear casts are so strong

[mystic vale]

Heat 2, benefits package. Still need Burner for prophecy.

[raw violet]

and i was referring to guan yu

[mossy breach]

wait achiles aspect damage bonus also affects cast?

[dry ember]

What Haelian does a dash less run in sub 20 mins

And I'm struggling to get it consistently

What is this bull

[mystic vale]

Asterius, probably.

[dry ember]

I knew that was coming

[cunning urchin]

Wrong.

[raw violet]

charged skewer on guan yu is pretty nuts

[cunning urchin]

Asterius is "Who is this bull?"

[raw violet]

thanks trebek

[cunning urchin]

Sure thing.

[dry ember]

I should get off Discord to work

[cunning urchin]

Just become a pro gamer, and you can get on Discord to work.

[dry ember]

That's... what I'm already doing though

I'm... at work

[turbid arch]

Dashless run I'd probably do with Excalibur.

[mystic vale]

Is it still a "run" if it's dashless?

Isn't it more like a dashless mosey?

[raw violet]

If anything, your ratio of run to not run is probably a lot higher without dashes

Can you even walk in Hades?

[dry ember]

With analog controller I think we actually can?

@deft crow I think your posts are more suited for #hades-suggestions rather than #hades-feedback

[deft crow]

my bad entirely, I tend to get carried away on ideas

[cunning urchin]

#hades-suggestions is not open for new messages.

#hades-feedback is the right channel. But read the rules in the pinned messages first.

Only one suggestion per message, so that people can vote on your individual ideas.

[mystic vale]

Or anti-ideas, in my case.

Nap time. See you in Hades!

[dry ember]

It's my bad then

[elfin ledge]

what are good special boons for chiron bow? I tried frost flourish with arctic blast and it was fine but nothing too amazing

[proven robin]

I believe Dionysus works well.

Zeus used to be ridiculous but they added a hidden cooldown so it's not as ungodly strong as it used to be. Might still be fine, though.

Unsure if Artemis would be good too.

[elfin ledge]

tested zeus but yeah only one proc per special use, zeus special is amazing with his shield tho

[proven robin]

Athena is pretty good! If you work your angles it can even retain its defensive usefulness even if you're locked on to someone.

[desert nacelle]

I've some questions about Pierced Butterfly.
Dmg boost from that artifact applies to all dmg (Hits, dots, casts)?
Dmg provided by it connected to artifact and gone upon switching it?

[robust gate]

If you get poseidon special and sea storm the you can bypass the lightning cooldown

Yes to both, flak

[elfin ledge]

oh that sounds insane Villa_ice_008 I need to try that out even tho my luck sucks with duo's I want

[desert nacelle]

How much times should i kill Valkyries to unlock possibility of giving ambrosia to Megaera? Is there estimated range of it?

[elfin ledge]

are you using EM?

[desert nacelle]

EM?

oh not me

[elfin ledge]

extreme measures

and yes you

its the heat thing

[desert nacelle]

ye

its 14 atm

[raw violet]

someone was telling me that seas storm doesn't bypass the zeus cooldown either

but i couldn't tell cause chiron is so fast

[robust gate]

Didn't look like there was a cooldown last time I tried it

[raw violet]

+double makes it hard to count how many procs you get

i've heard from others that it does bypass, but got conflicting info here so i have no idea

[robust gate]

I'll have to try using both Zeus and poseidon with sea storm then

[raw violet]

i guess the other thing is that I never knew what it looked like prior to the cooldown patch

so i have no comparison

[desert nacelle]

@elfin ledge i do

There is a thing when u put tooth and u get 4th defiance, and when u switch back to smth there is empty cell

its fine?

[smoky wolf]

Good gravy that was a fun run. I now see the value of Aspect of Hera

Also helped that I had Tempest strike, flurry shot, chain shot, typhoon's fury +380%, second wave, razor shoals and Trippy Shot Lv 6

I can only describe my trip through Styx as a rampage

[dry ember]

Wait till you get Scintillating Feast Ice Wine Cold Fusion Hera combo

It's nutty

[unkempt pagoda]

[smoky wolf]

i might switch to the +duo boon chance just to fish for that

[desert nacelle]

Earthquacke crit mark

[unkempt pagoda]

yall think they'll ever nerf ice wine + scintillating

[smoky wolf]

i dunno, if you pull off two duo boons on a good run you deserve to have fun

[raw violet]

i think that combo has so much requirement that it'll remain

[unkempt pagoda]

imo they shouldn't since it's locked behind two duos

[magic dagger]

Probably not, it's kind of hard to get

[unkempt pagoda]

but maybe ice wine itself needs some fine tuning

[dry ember]

Ice Wine and Scintillating Feast is easy enough

Cold Fusion needs jolted which is hard to get.

[smoky wolf]

there was an answer from one of the devs (Greg or Amir? I can't remember) in a recent Q&A saying that they think it's perfectly okay to feel like you've broken the game on a really good run because you are a god afterall

[magic dagger]

And really, overpowered combos should exist, it's part of the fun. ^^^^

[dry ember]

I like that approach tbh

[smoky wolf]

exactly

[unkempt pagoda]

see the thing is ice wine is already the winning build, scintillating is just the electric cherry on top

[turbid arch]

I can agree on overpowered combos. What about one-boon wins though?

Looking at spread fire here.

[desert nacelle]

So the thing with tooth is a bug or what? 🤔

[unkempt pagoda]

i have no doubt spread fire is gonna be nerfed lmao

[raw violet]

that's a fair assessment about ice wine

[dry ember]

Spreadfire is OK imo

[smoky wolf]

i haven't played with spread fire enough

[raw violet]

spreadfire makes the entire game trivial

[dry ember]

It's stronger than other things

[turbid arch]

You spam dash attack and you win.

[dry ember]

But I don't see a problem with it.

[turbid arch]

The attack has basicly no lag to it and the base damage is very high

[unkempt pagoda]

severely high attack rate, aoe piercing, 50 base damage

[magic dagger]

I haven't done enough runs with rail to ever even get aspect of shotgun

[turbid arch]

The attack rate all by itself is not even high, but you can cancel out of it ridiculously fast with dashes

[dry ember]

I said this before and I'll say it again. It's perfectly OK to have crutches ina single player game, especially with roguelite

[raw violet]

if you get spreadfire and a single artemis boon, you're looking at a pretty easy sub 15 minute run out the gate

[dry ember]

Brimstone in Isaac
Brilliant Behemoth in RoR2
Spreadfire in Hades

[turbid arch]

Brimstone is overrated.

[dry ember]

Not like you can control if it will drop

[turbid arch]

There I said it.

You can control it to an extend.

[dry ember]

But it does trivialize the game to a certain extent

And I say that's OK

[raw violet]

i see the problem with spreadfire, but i'm also okay with it

[turbid arch]

Knowing that two hammers will appear paired with the fact that some hammers will take out others can help you manipulate the RNG a bit

[raw violet]

but i wouldn't be surprised if it got adjusted

[turbid arch]

Say you take hazard bomb, that will take out rocket bomb, triple bomb and cluster bomb, heavily increasing your chances of seeing spread fire on the next hammer

[magic dagger]

I haven't gotten ice wine the past 5 times I've gone for it. : (

[dry ember]

Yeah Spreadfire probably will get the need hammer.

I'm not necessarily agree with that

[turbid arch]

On the other hand, there are plenty boons that are in sever need of buffing imo.

[raw violet]

the main problem is that it makes all the other options obsolete

[magic dagger]

Nerf All Of The Things, I say.

[raw violet]

so either the other attack hammers need a buff

to give choice

actually, even if i was gunning for a rocket bomb build, if i got spreadfire, i'd pick it

[turbid arch]

I will never understand why they nerfed explosive shot.

The flinching was so good.

[dry ember]

I mean it's a single player game. Spreadfire can be an auto win button. It's fun to trivialize the game once in a while

[raw violet]

i guess the old feedback about delta chamber had the same issue

supposedly

[unkempt pagoda]

well i hope they don't take the same approach with spread fire as they did with infinity chamber

[dry ember]

What's the old Delta Chamber?

[unkempt pagoda]

bc delta chamber sucks :V

[raw violet]

lol

[turbid arch]

It was just infinity chamber

no more reloading

[unkempt pagoda]

infinity chamber was just infinite ammo

[dry ember]

That upgrade seems very underwhelming.to me

Oh I see

[mossy breach]

the problem with spread fire is not the boon itself, its that the dash extra attack bypasses the increased cooldown between shots, making it extremely strong, even more if you get extra dashes or artemis dash attack

[unkempt pagoda]

delta chamber is a straight dps loss

[turbid arch]

tbf, I was never a fan of infinity chamber either.

[unkempt pagoda]

i'd much rather have the old dash-reload hammer instead

[turbid arch]

I think that the triple burst shot should just be converted into the dash attack for the rail

[desert nacelle]

What is spreadfire?

[turbid arch]

The rail not having a real dash strike is kind of a shame.

[dry ember]

Ok I had this convo before about spreadfire

[glad island]

Can someone tell me what the heart with a lock mean?

[unkempt pagoda]

rail hammer, basically a shotgun blast in an area for 50 dmg

[dry ember]

I agree that it is stronger than many other options

What I'm saying is I'm OK with that

[unkempt pagoda]

@glad island look in the pins of #h1-story-discussion

[dry ember]

You should feel strong once in while

[raw violet]

it's stronger than all other options

[dry ember]

That is why I play roguelite games

[unkempt pagoda]

the thing about it is that it makes other options feel weak in comparison

[mossy breach]

I would just reduce the max ammo count when using spread fire, or make it use 2 or 3 shots

[turbid arch]

Speak for yourselfes. I feel strong everytime, no matter what I do.

[unkempt pagoda]

honestly i'd revert it back to old spread fire

[dry ember]

Yes. And so what? You can't guarantee a 100% spawn rate for SF

[raw violet]

sure you can

[mossy breach]

I dont know how it was before

[dry ember]

How so?

[raw violet]

just die

dying at first hammer if you don't get spreadfire is probably faster than playing out the run without it

if you're into that

[dry ember]

If that's your definition of fun then sure...

[magic dagger]

if you're into that
suicide?

[dry ember]

By your I don't mean you

[raw violet]

i do think that onyx has a point

[dry ember]

I mean in general

[raw violet]

in that within this nugget is that spreadfire is so strong that the rest of the options feel like a chore, by comparison

which can be considered unfun to some people

[proven robin]

Delta Chamber is still good if you do a lot of dash-shooting.

[mossy breach]

I personally like the one that makes your bullet pierce shields, forgot the name

[dry ember]

Ok if you put it that way then sure, SF can be unfun.

[proven robin]

That gives you 4 shots instead of 3, and you just dash-shoot over and over and that works just fine.

[raw violet]

i mean, you can reverse it too

maybe spreadfire should stay the way it is because it's fun

[unkempt pagoda]

i don't think sgg wants to have "must-picks" in this game

[raw violet]

but most of the other options are pretty not fun

[dry ember]

I do want to add a caveat though, picking SF is a player choice. And the decision to do something in game ultimately lays in the player's hand.

[mossy breach]

you still can be unlucky and not have it offered though

[unkempt pagoda]

an option feeling strong shouldn't mean you feel genuinely bummed out if you don't get it

[raw violet]

and if that's the case and you belong to the SF is the only fun attack option, then you've got a pretty unfun attack run on your hands

unless you're able to pivot into a special build

[unkempt pagoda]

especially in a game as reliant on rng as this

[desert nacelle]

Why adamant rail sometimes fires purple shot? (default one, without any boon).

[raw violet]

it shouldn't be default, that sounds like hestia

[robust gate]

Aspect of hestia does a power shot on the first shot you take

[dry ember]

Legitimate question, if you already have a strong special build with something like triple bomb Epic DeadlyFlourish yada yada

Would you still pick SF if it's offered in Styx?

[desert nacelle]

i know but it does shot purple one

idk why

[robust gate]

That's the power shot

[unkempt pagoda]

probably lol

[raw violet]

probably not that late, since i have build goals when i do a run

[unkempt pagoda]

gives me something to do while the bombs drop

[raw violet]

but i wouldn't be wrong to pick it

[buoyant dirge]

@dry ember Nope, especially if i can use a more defensive option like weakness or chill on the main attack

[raw violet]

actually, that's a good point

if i'm running a special build, i'm probably running eris

and thus attack inbetween

actually, even if i wasn't running eris, there's no reason not to attack inbetween bombs

[buoyant dirge]

Yeah, you always have time to attack, and the burst shot is kinda cool in those case so you can keep rotate.

[unkempt pagoda]

rail imo is a great weapon for interweaving attack and special

[raw violet]

i think the reality is whatever dps you've accomplished with a special build, spreadfire alone can at least match it

[buoyant dirge]

But i really feel that a special AR build can deal so much damage that i prefer to use the main attack as a support to apply debuff or any kind of effect

Since i'm not able to go full glasscannon and win since i still make mistake

[raw violet]

definitely with a basic attack boon, maybe even without

[desert nacelle]

Where can i do a bugreport?

[dry ember]

F10 in game

[desert nacelle]

ty

[cunning urchin]

Spread Fire is stupidly broken right now imo. It's like a mod that deletes enemies if you click on them except you can hold down the button for rapid fire.

[fallen mirage]

Agreed, Spread Fire is mandatory for RailGun speedrun right now

[dry ember]

Speedrunning should not affect balance.

Speedrunners use seeds

They will have broken builds

[gaunt tundra]

is hazard bomb taken at all?

[fallen mirage]

Two categories of speedrunning use seeds

[buoyant dirge]

Yeah HB is so fun

[fallen mirage]

The rest are random

[raw violet]

@gaunt tundra apparently hazard bomb is a great pick if you're hunting for spreadfire on your second hammer

[sudden dagger]

Ugh idk why, but I got the murderer fate the past two times, and I can't figure out how to dodge her... Especially when the room is so small

[dry ember]

My point still stands on speedrunning should not affect balance

[fallen mirage]

You can't tell me that the fact that Merciful End is all but required for Fresh File speedrun doesn't mean that Merciful End is broken, solely because it comes from a speedrunning perspective

[raw violet]

i think people grossly overestimate the strength of seeds in speedruns

[fallen mirage]

@raw violet I think you're underestimating the strength of seeds in speedruns. WR right now is 3:59 in-game time

[raw violet]

okay, i was not counting the fully seeded and routed competition

[dry ember]

I think Krasher might speedrun him/herself

But not sure

[raw violet]

but you have a point

[cunning urchin]

You don't need any kind of big build to make Spread Fire broken.

The build is Spread Fire and literally anything on Attack.

[raw violet]

i think the takeaway from a gameplay perspective on spreadfire is that getting it on your very first hammer makes your build op with minimal additional requirements

[cunning urchin]

Yeah exactly.

[raw violet]

being op is important in a game like this

[dry ember]

I agree that it is stronger than many other options
What I'm saying is I'm OK with that

[raw violet]

but the devs philosophy is that it should be attained

[dry ember]

I'll just quote myself here

[raw violet]

i'm okay with it

as in, i don't care if it doesn't get nerfed

[cunning urchin]

You'll be deleting enemies for the rest of the run. It's like getting Blizzard Shot or Ice Wine as tier 1.

[raw violet]

it doesn't mean i don't see how unbalanced it is

and i'm arguing that it is indeed unbalanced

and that i have no reason to take any other hammer upgrade when offered it

[dry ember]

Yeah. I think when the SF debate comes up, people usually misunderstand each other.

[raw violet]

keeping it as is wouldn't ruin my day

but i also like to have options cause that's part of the fun

and the other options are just not very fun

for whatever reason

[dry ember]

Triple Bomb Inescapable Blast is OK for me.

[raw violet]

yes

[dry ember]

Delta Chamber is...

Why

[raw violet]

to be clear, i mean the other attack options

[young gorge]

what's wrong with delta chamber 😔

ok i know what's wrong with it but i used it the first time and it went well

[unkempt pagoda]

it's a straight dps loss

petition to replace it with the cut cooling chamber:

[young gorge]

what does cooling chamber do

[unkempt pagoda]

it was a hammer that reloaded some ammo every time you dashed

[young gorge]

OOO

oh that sounded pretty good though

what happened to it

did the devs snapped it bcs it was too good

[unkempt pagoda]

it got cut unfortunately

i think because it was too similar to infinity chamber

but then they nerfed infinity lol

[young gorge]

to delta

rip

[dry ember]

Cooling chamber sounds like a nifty idea

[cunning urchin]

I'd like it to be a more interesting option than "congrats, you win this run" like it is now. And I do think it's okay for 1 hammer upgrade to be the #1 option.

[unkempt pagoda]

cooling chamber was cool because there was a level of depth to it

[cunning urchin]

For example, Breaching Cross is a 100% pick anytime it shows up. It's just that good. But it's somewhat balanced in that piercing and armor damage doesn't affect a lot of enemies.

[unkempt pagoda]

other than you have infinite ammo, or you have infinite ammo but now you do less damage

[young gorge]

do ya'll ever encounter problems w/ reloading though or do you already reload between enemies/specials

[unkempt pagoda]

reloading is just a part of the gameplay loop to me

there's a limitation but like it doesn't matter at all

[dry ember]

Here is my philosophy: as of the current state of the game, most, if not all, upgrades in the game is useful. You don't need SF to win. It's not required. You don't have to pick it.

Now for SF being broken

So what?

Part of Roguelite appeals is the God Run

The debate should not be whether God Run should exist

It should

[raw violet]

that's not the debate of spreadfire though

[dry ember]

Rather it should be how often you can get the God Run

As in how often you should get access to SF

[proven robin]

Am I the only person who thinks Delta Chamber is fine? Like...Use Dash shot. All the time.

[raw violet]

the debate is if a god run should be possible on the very first drop of a run

[cunning urchin]

So Breaching Cross will let me delete Hades's summons, but I'll still have to deal with Hades. Spread Fire will let me delete Hades too.

[dry ember]

Fair enough. My opinion is that it's OK. But now I see why other can think otherwise.

[raw violet]

i just think with the way they balanced fully loaded

[dry ember]

You are right though.

[raw violet]

and the design philosophy behind it

they are not gonna let spreadfire be the way it is

that's jus the inbetween the lines that i'm reading

[buoyant dirge]

@proven robin I would say situational if you using main attack as a support, but if it's your main dps source you should avoid it, since it force you too much downtime.

[cunning urchin]

Yeah, they'll definitely make some changes to it before 1.0.

[buoyant dirge]

If you keep dash striking it may be okay but you'll probably lack a bit of dps on the tankier boss in high Heat

[proven robin]

It is also possible that it changes in higher Heat, since I'm just on 10.

[cunning urchin]

Which one was Delta Chamber?

[gaunt tundra]

3 shots no reload

[proven robin]

You fire a 3-round burst.

If you dash-shot, it's 4-round burst.

[cunning urchin]

Ah right.

[dry ember]

Make it a 7 round burst and I'll bite.

[unkempt pagoda]

delta chamber is better because it has the coolest name

[desert nacelle]

is there a way to respec titan blood? 🤔

[robust gate]

No, once you've spent it it's gone

[desert nacelle]

[delicate nimbus]

@dry ember spread fire is 1 upgrade of 12. You see 3 at a time and you get 2 spins of it every game. This means you're gonna see any given hammer upgrade like about half the time. Now if there's a hammer upgrade so good that you're priced into it every other game that's bad and reduces run diversity.

[dry ember]

Fair point. Though if I may reply:

You won't necessarily pick hammer chamber everytime. At least not me. So seeing SF might not be half the time.

Now if you see the hammer, it's up to you if you want to pick it. Sometimes I have a special build going and I see Triple Bomb, I'll take that over SF. So in some niche cases, SF is not a must pick.

Next, it's up to you to decide. SF makes it easy to win, not absolutely necessary to win. You are not coerced to pick SF just to clear a run since everything else is perfectly viable. This is a single player game. It's you that decide what is fun and what is not. If you find using a diverse set of weapon as fun then all the power to you. If I find using comfortable builds and trivializing the game is fun then all the power to me. We are not competing with each other. Out choices are not mutually exclusive.

One point I will concede though, as Krasher pointed out, if I see SF as first hammer upgrade, no brainer I'll take it even before looking at other options. That's something that could be detrimental somewhat. Does it warrant a nerf to SF? I also don't think so.

[delicate nimbus]

So I am not a hades expert. I did see haelian say that spread fire was autowin and broken. But it doesn't really matter if it actually broken for the purpose of this conversation, assume it is.

[dry ember]

Hey I love Haelian.

And yeah I agree SF is broken. That we agree.

[delicate nimbus]

If it's an auto pick then that means that in order to make the game easier I need to pick it.

Even if I think it's more fun to do other things, the game is disincentivising me from having more fun.

Game needs to make the best way of playing the most fun.

[celest mason]

Also you might not pick hammer when it’s competing with a boon, because the game would keep giving you later, which might be a single-pick

[cunning urchin]

Better to go for the hammer though because you might get Spread Fire.

Unless there's a chance for something equally busted like Ice Wine perhaps in the other chamber.

[dry ember]

Is using SF fun?

[buoyant dirge]

yeah

at least imo

[dry ember]

When you see SF in a Hammer do you go "Man, I wish I can use something like Delta Chamber right now?"

[buoyant dirge]

I see your point lol

[proven robin]

(Honestly I pick Delta Chamber over Spread Fire in general)

[dry ember]

Oh no my point is moot

[buoyant dirge]

I prefer special build in my case but still, SF is fun

[proven robin]

(Also because I sometimes forget to count my ammo, and running out in the heat of battle can lead to damage you otherwise wouldn't take.

[dry ember]

Zag Aspect dude

[proven robin]

Yeah, that made it much better, but it still happened, even with that Attack build I posted up.

[dry ember]

Also you are the guy who showed me the fist combo

I love the fists now

Wooo

[proven robin]

I'm glad!

[buoyant dirge]

I'm interested

about that combo

[proven robin]

That fist combo is what made me just go all-in on the fists.

It's pretty simple. Hold attack to do the normal combo, then finish with a very quick dash-strike.

Keeps the combo going, and you can loop by just zipping back and forth.

[buoyant dirge]

For the dash strike you use the special or normal one ?

[proven robin]

Normal.

[buoyant dirge]

Basic aspect ?

[proven robin]

Stunlocks any normal enemy without armor, and with Zeus on Attack, it procs so many times.

Yes, though you can do it with any aspect so far.

[buoyant dirge]

I'm gonna give it a go rn

haven't played fist in a while

i'm more of a ranged boi

[proven robin]

Talos is good if you lack a good Cast.

[cunning urchin]

I barely use the rail at all because I don't like being deliberately suboptimal in order to not break the game, and Spread Fire sucks all the challenge and thinking out of a run without even having work towards a build.

[proven robin]

With Talos, you can just pull them in and subject them to The Combo.

If they're still alive, of course.

[cunning urchin]

For DPS with Malphon, you actually want to dash-strike more than do the regular 5-hit. Rather, you'd cancel into dash-strikes asap, which is after 3 hits.

[proven robin]

Fair! I don't hit count, but I do tend to not let the full combo finish.

[cunning urchin]

Unless you have Rolling and Concentrated Knuckle, in which case you wait for 6 hits then use all your dash-strikes again.

[proven robin]

::nod::

[cunning urchin]

With extra dashes from Hermes.

I feel like I can never have enough dashes with Malphon. I've had Heroic Greatest Reflex and felt like why won't Master Chaos give me 1-2 more dashes, too . . .

[dry ember]

What are you going to do with those extra dashes ? Rob the Wretched Broker and run away?

[cunning urchin]

DASH-STRIKE!

[raw violet]

Probably apply more deadly reversal

[unkempt pagoda]

greater reflex is better than ruthless reflex because you can dash more inside the House

i feel so slow with only one dash inside the house lmao

[cunning urchin]

Hmm well the dashes won't apply Deadly Reversal, the Dash-Strikes do. But I guess since every dash becomes a dash-strike . . .

Greater Reflex is better because 2 Dash-Strikes is 1 Dash-Strike more than 1 Dash-Strike.

[mystic vale]

And back. Not that it matters, but hey.

Also, Onyx, check Feedback. :p

Wow, look at all that haterade. :/

[mystic vale]

Oh! Krasher, you around?

[wintry plume]

I just beat Meg but do some of you have some advice on how to beat her more efficiently?

[robust gate]

It's mostly a matter of learning her attacks and timing your dashes accordingly

[dry ember]

Dashing gives you I frames

You don't need to dash away even if you can time it right

This of course comes with practice.

[mystic vale]

Pfft. Listen to all this violence against women. :p

You can sometime get her to walk onto traps.

[dry ember]

I'm for gender equality.

[robust gate]

It's funny when fighting alecto and she starts following you you can run around the room and she'll keep hurting herself on the traps

[smoky wolf]

my last run she was chasing me around the room while I had epic drunken dash

[mystic vale]

Heat 4 shield. Let's see how this goes.

[robust gate]

You got this!

[mystic vale]

One hopes.

[dry ember]

What's wrong with a girl chasing after you?

[robust gate]

Doesn't matter if they're trying to kill me, at least someone cares about me enough to go after me

[mystic vale]

Even trying to be fast, it took 6:43 to clear Tartarus. I need more OP builds. :p

[smoky wolf]

i should work on that, my runs are always slow as hell, especially since i like to always go for troves

[mystic vale]

And that's with L5 Frost Flourish on Chaos shield.

I almost never end runs with L5 skills, much less have L5 for Meg.

[smoky wolf]

in fairness, diminishing returns hit pretty hard for most boons so that's not surprising

i usually only get stuff like drunken DOTs to high levels since you always increase the ticks by at least 1

[robust gate]

Yeah, demeter special is kinda average for chaos aspect. Arctic blast and killing freeze help a little bit, but it still pales in comparison to dio or zeus

[mystic vale]

TIL trying to go fast with Bull Rush in Asphodel gets me in the drink quickly.

[robust gate]

Oh yeah, it's a pain, especially when it's those small island clusters

[naive tusk]

I finally beat my 🌈 procrastination 🌈 and did my final 32 heat run. I'm so proud of myself
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710856989416226886/712437667698180126/32_Heat_Poseidon_Sword.png

Also, this run just confirmed that Hell Mode just gives a free 1 heat because FB swooped 3x42 damage to me consecutively ❤️

[dry ember]

Wow I hope I get there one day!

[naive tusk]

If I could, you can as well!

[dry ember]

What's the difference between Hell Mode and normal?

Except you start out at 5 heat

[robust gate]

Disables God mode and forces you to go up to higher heat with each successful run

[naive tusk]

They force you to begin playing with 5 heat, strip away the invulnerabilty shield that you get when you take massive damage (which is pretty useless to me because it never triggers or only after I got hit by the last blow so yeah), and you can't play with lower heat than your last cleared heat lv

[dry ember]

So if you reach 32 heat you need to go to 33 now?

Despite no reward left to reap?

[naive tusk]

Fortunately, no. You can do 20-25 heat runs once you reach that level even if you cleared a higher heat

[dry ember]

I see.

[naive tusk]

Not sure exactly which is the minimum required since I haven't played it yet, but I'm pretty sure it will just give me a 1 heat advantage because I'm used to playing around 20 heat and that shield you get when you take huge damage never EVER procs when I need it

Like, please, I took 120+ damage in a second

[dry ember]

Gives spear point a chance to shine I suppose

[naive tusk]

Oh yes! It's a lovely keepsake ❤️

[proven robin]

Hey, congrats!

[naive tusk]

Thank you

I wish you good luck in your 32 runs @dry ember and to everyone who has yet to clear it

[mystic vale]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1018322454565727374/2B0194A88BC8DBFF1D4BF5DC8824A95D977BC09A/ Shield so ez.

[proven robin]

Congrats!

For shield, funnily enough I like the Hammer mod that turns the Bull Rush into a piercing shot.

I can also do fine without it, but with that, I usually just get the boons and such to set myself up like a fortress on one side of the map and just ruin the day of everything that goes for me.

[mystic vale]

See, I liked the piercing shot.

Until I realised it was denying me Shadow Presence damage.

Since I'm no longer DSing from behind half the time.

[proven robin]

Indeed! I'm fine with that, though. I kinda like grunty tank approaches sometimes.

[raw violet]

@mystic vale ?

[mystic vale]

Yeah, so it turns out.

That the guy unlocked something other than what we were looking for.

The actual left side mirror arrows apparently unlock after either one's third run, or second run in Asphodel, or meeting Hydra.

After a conversation with Nyx.

I'd need further testing to narrow down which condition it is, but it does mention a mirror upgrade at top of screen.

[lapis matrix]

I think it's the third run

[proven robin]

OKAY so I didn't realize until I saw it on this Discord that you can actually activate the spin attack on the spear by dashing instead of just letting go of the button.

That...answers a lot of my reservations about the spin attack.

[mystic vale]

Oh, that wacky Tisiphone. You never know what she's going to say next.

[robust gate]

Mur...

[proven robin]

...Oh, [expletive deleted] you, game! You give me a Chaos Gate, an Infernal Gate (with a boon instead of, say, a Centaur Heart), and the normal room reward has a boon as well!

[turbid needle]

In those situations it's almost always safest to just take the boon room.

[minor valve]

i just had the most calming and delightful run ever

+2 healing on each hit on flurry slash stygius

with weak apply and invulnerability whenever i take damage evcery 7 seconds

and attack ahste from hermes

just calmly chopping away and healing back all my health

[mighty ermine]

zeus fists just never gets old https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/654076105321480226/712460547357933658/20200519191625_1.jpg?width=1204&height=677

[mystic vale]

The joys of killing the end boss with alcohol poisoning.

[robust gate]

Hey ||dad,|| have a drink, or two, or more

[mystic vale]

Good old booze flourish at point blank range.

[buoyant jacinth]

so what's the difference between level and rarity of a boon?

[unkempt pagoda]

rarity is the base value, level is calculated off of that base value (with diminishing returns)

after you've had a few levels in a boon, raising the rarity will usually give you a higher increase (but there are only a few ways to increase rarity)

[naive tusk]

Supposedly, Thanatos doesn't show up if you have Tight Deadline on, right?

[lapis matrix]

Demeter is one of them

Thanatos does

Time is paused however

[naive tusk]

Ah, gotcha. Thank you

[mystic vale]

But Thanatos shows up more often if you have Tight Pants on.

[magic dagger]

Just restarted in hellmode, I'm in Elysium on my second run. Turns out, luring your enemies into archer traps with a combination of kiting and engulfing vortex is a perfectly valid strategy.
And by "perfectly valid" I mean that I just cleared a room by making my enemies stand in front of traps.

[proven robin]

Awww, got sloppy and died to Hades.

[mystic vale]

If it weren't for those lasers he'd be a pushover.

[desert nacelle]

so i can post screenshots here?

[unkempt pagoda]

you can paste links

[desert nacelle]

Did my second walkthrough with a sword this time 🥳

[mystic vale]

Game seems to have learned I don't like the sword. Hasn't had me use it for like ten runs.

[desert nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508692914487164929/712479525170315345/unknown.png

🥳

[umbral lagoon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/554057222926106628/712482914226536459/20200519161625_1.jpg

literally first run of the day

shield is actually easy

but if you don't have damage it really really sucks

really depends on how you play it

and boon RNG

[buoyant jacinth]

ugh how does anyone escape with stygian blade

[proven robin]

Hilariously, even though I'm generally terrible at it, sword was the first weapon I actually managed a clear with.

[buoyant jacinth]

I went like 10 runs without losing a Death's Defiance before final boss. Stygian Blade run: fought final boss with no DD and half health lol

[robust gate]

Playing melee generally knowing how all enemies attack, knowing how to time your dashes are crucial as well, especially when dealing with armored enemies

[buoyant jacinth]

yeah I love my ranged weps lol

or the shield which feels a lot like stygian blade but with way more utility and defense

[desert nacelle]

i saw the run with a blade

the guy took crits on special and weak on dash

Does attack speed affects on spear spin preparation?

[proven robin]

I have tested this just now.

It does not.

[buoyant jacinth]

the guy took crits on special and weak on dash
@desert nacelle lol I had the same! didn't work for me

I don't get a lot of weps specials. they generally freeze you which always feels so bad

[desert nacelle]

Hunter mark, and duo with dmg agains weak enemies

also double slam + wide

and +dmg on special

[buoyant jacinth]

hmm interesting. I opted not to get double slam to fulfill prophecy with something useless lol

[desert nacelle]

but on the old patch

[buoyant jacinth]

oh I had no chaos boons somehow, that really killed me. my dmg was so low

[primal sigil]

On the win screen, what are the tokens on the top-left of some of your boons?

[mighty ermine]

that means a boon is pinned to show on the right; you can pin up to five boons at once

shows the full stats and description of the boon

it's mainly for sharing with others

i.e. wanting to show off which five boons were the most significant for a run after you clear it etc.

[snow copper]

On the weapons, is the only buff ever Darkness or do you ever get the +20% on other stuff like gems or stuff?

[turbid needle]

Just Darkness.

It encourages trying every weapon, and I highly recommend you follow it at least until you're at Fated Authority/Persuasion.

[snow copper]

Ah ok, would be cool if they did. There's way too few gems in rooms

[turbid needle]

Maybe I play too much, but I'm sitting on 10k gems and counting.

(I probably just play too much)

[buoyant jacinth]

catch them fishies for the gemmies

[snow copper]

I got the game recently and have beaten a few times, but it just feels like a grind once you start reaching the hundred cost ones

Like you don't have to do them, but whereas before you just got some, now it feels like you have to actually search for them

[turbid needle]

Quick tip quickie for fishing: The buoy will only bob up to three times before it's guaranteed to be a bite.

[snow copper]

And when you do find the rooms, they only give you 5

[turbid needle]

And the Legendary fish in Styx is worth 150 gems.

[buoyant jacinth]

ooh that's handy @turbid needle

[turbid needle]

It used to bob like 9 times and the clock did not stop.

It was rough.

[buoyant jacinth]

lol

[naive tusk]

OMG FL4K that's adorable

[buoyant jacinth]

yeah mistah since the fish give so much more than the rooms, I almost don't even bother with the gem rooms

[turbid needle]

@desert nacelle Attack speed doesn't affect the spear's spin charge time, but you will start the charge in fewer frames after pressing Attack.

Gem rooms are nice because they're 20 Obols.

And that adds up.

[snow copper]

Yeah, whenever I see one, I typically go for an alternate path if there's one available, and then it feels like a waste if there's no alt

[turbid needle]

(Once you have the specific upgrade)

Also, I recommend you maybe skip Tight Deadline and take every Gem Trove when you're farming.

[naive tusk]

Schpoon has that much gems because he refuses to buy a painting Oh, that's useful advice!

[turbid needle]

Please, that count is after I've mentally subtracted.

[desert nacelle]

@naive tusk what do u mean?

🤔

[naive tusk]

The way you celebrated. I thought it was cute, that's all

[desert nacelle]

🥳

[robust gate]

I kinda wish there wasn't a penalty for buying trove trackers. An obol price increase would be better imo

[turbid needle]

Penalty?

[robust gate]

When getting a trove via trove tracker the max amount you can get decreases, say from 150 down to 100

[cunning urchin]

Gemstone chambers are the least valuable with Convenience Fee or Dark Healing. Any other chamber gives you a lot more.

[versed bloom]

Do you think a duo boon with ares and demeter is a good idea

They both have 4 duos when the mode seems to be 5

[robust gate]

I've seen it go as low as 25 for gem troves

[turbid needle]

Really?

I need to double check that, unless you've got footage.

[desert nacelle]

What is better Gods Chosen or Gods Pride buff in the mirror?

[turbid needle]

Probably Pride.

[robust gate]

Yup, even with the contractor upgrades maxed out. Only seems to happen when buying trove trackers. I'll have to record it sometime

[turbid needle]

But you should try both and use what works best for you.

[cunning urchin]

God's Chosen gives you 1 more boon for every 10 boons over a run. That's how you could think of it.

[narrow halo]

If i max out an npc ❤️ do i get any gameplay benefits?

[cunning urchin]

Some of them will give you an item that will show up below the keepsakes and that you can use in battle. Beyond that: peace of mind.

[desert nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508692914487164929/712509630521016381/unknown.png

I'm in ballet school now

[cunning urchin]

Did Master Chaos take your max HP?

[desert nacelle]

Master chaos?

no

why would he

[cunning urchin]

Oh, is your Guan Yu Aspect not Lv.5 yet?

[desert nacelle]

Yes

I just took it

[cunning urchin]

Chaos has some boons that reduce your max HP for n encounters.

[desert nacelle]

Lv5 seems allot grind for me

[cunning urchin]

It seems like that at first, but eventually you'll pick up those Titan Bloods pretty fast.

You can get 2 per run for free.

[desert nacelle]

o_O

[narrow halo]

Where can i find or when i get guan yu

?

[cunning urchin]

Apparently you need a few aspects unlocked (don't know how many), and at some point Achilles will tell you to talk to ||Varatha/the Eternal Spear||. When you do that, it will unlock Guan Yu Aspect.

[lapis matrix]

You need 5 or 4 titan blood invested

[dry ember]

Can we talk about how good Serrated Edge is?

Love that thing.

[lament coral]

I'll keep my long dash, thank you very much

[dry ember]

Dashing is overrated.

[paper mountain]

Just had a run with two duos and two legendaries. Most damage I've ever dealt.

Rail with Flurry Fire and Lightning Strike with Zeus Legendary. Hoo doggy.

[turbid needle]

Yeah, that's one of the nastier builds in the game.

Serrated Edge is great for the brave.

But the first time I picked it up I was not prepared and it ended poorly.

But it makes Aspect of Hades a boss lawnmower.

[dry ember]

hmm I never noticed the dash range difference tbh

and yeah I just really take it on Hades

where I rarely special

[versed bloom]

Zeus in general allows some really strong builds

Instead of being percentile damage like most gods he adds flat damage

[desert nacelle]

I did up to 5k dmg to armored rat in a few seconds

[versed bloom]

Which is better with a couple weapons, namely the rail and the fists

[dry ember]

yeah, about to say, Zeus is kinda bad on bow, maybe except Chiron

[turbid needle]

Right now neither Thunder Flourish nor Tempest Flourish/Sea Storm works 100%.

You get a few procs, but not a lightning bolt for every arrow like we all want.

[dry ember]

I thought that was deliberate?

[turbid needle]

But rumor has it that there was a bolt every arrow once upon a time but it was dummy broken.

Yeah, I think it is.

[dry ember]

But then again, it only shows how underwhelming Zeus is on bow.

[desert nacelle]

Poor Hades

[turbid needle]

I think with Zag and Hera you can barrel-stuff the bow and still get every lightning bolt.

I haven't tried it in a long time, but last I did it worked.

[dry ember]

Zeus cast on Hera asks for so much more

like Jolted or legendary to be properly good

[turbid needle]

I don't like Electric Shot except with Stygian Soul.

[desert nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508692914487164929/712525495065116712/unknown.png

almost good run

[turbid needle]

They yearn to be free, and I'm over waiting for Bloodstones to come back to me.

[dry ember]

you made it in 21 mins.

Tight Deadline can be your friend, rather than whatever heat you are running rn

[desert nacelle]

that was some stupid combo

some rat died to 5k dmg

[dry ember]

I see serrated edge, I like

neato

[desert nacelle]

ye

that 3 attack

with stacking doom

with doom delay+dmg

with duo

[dry ember]

it's really good with drunken strike too

or anything that stacks rahter

or crit

[desert nacelle]

i was stacking doom like hella fast

[turbid needle]

That's what I did with Aspect of Hades.

[desert nacelle]

and procing it with duo thingy

but i died

i was going to deliver last hit ... but hades was faster

[paper mountain]

Question about interactions: Does Poseidon's Tempest Strike give knockback if you have the hammer mod which removes knockback from Shield attack?

[desert nacelle]

@dry ember is this good with zeus?

triple attack

[dry ember]

Yeah, probably, but there are like better options?

Also I'm very biased against Zeus boons.

I almost never take them unless Rail or Fists.

[desert nacelle]

talking about heat thing

i'm using EM to take my Megaera option

still nothing

[dry ember]

which Meg option are you referring to?

[mighty ermine]

you'd definitely want crits or aphro attack scaling over zeus for guan yu serrated edge, since its base damage is so strong

[desert nacelle]

locked heart

[cunning urchin]

Is there a limit to Doom stacks?

[dry ember]

heat doesn't affect that afaik

[desert nacelle]

EM does

[dry ember]

someone should confirm though

EM gives you dialogue options I think

[desert nacelle]

Extreme meassures

[dry ember]

but not to unlock the locked heart

[desert nacelle]

|| ye to do this i must gift ambrosia, but she is still ignoring me ||

[turbid needle]

Not to my knowledge, @cunning urchin

[dry ember]

||Did she collect her belongings in your room?|| @desert nacelle

[cunning urchin]

Is the curse delay really only 1.1 sec? It feels like it takes a lot longer for them to take damage.

[dry ember]

Also if you want to discuss this further we can move to #h1-story-discussion

[turbid needle]

Only 1.1 seconds.

[cunning urchin]

Hmmm. How many Zag Aspect Malphon punches can you throw in 1.1 seconds . . .

[dry ember]

at least 1

[cunning urchin]

[viscid vale]

you can punch 1000 people 1 time

[cunning urchin]

[viscid vale]

you can punch 1 person 1000 times

but can you punch 1000 people 1000 times

[cunning urchin]

Can you reapply Doom immediately after 1.1 seconds, or is there some additional delay from the Doom animation?

[desert nacelle]

u can always use deflect dash with duo instant doom

[dry ember]

I thought you can only apply Doom once per period? Or do you mean the specific boon that let you stack a bit more damage?

[cunning urchin]

The question about stacks was for Dire Misfortune, yes.

[desert nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712528599260856355/712532433316085780/unknown.png

give me swap to crit heroic

[cunning urchin]

Replacing Lady Aphrodite's boons is blasphemy and will not be tolerated.

🔫

Begone, blackguard!

[desert nacelle]

i want aphrodite's boon on my dash and duo crit amplify

[dry ember]

Arti > Divine Dash > Aphro > everything else

[desert nacelle]

[mighty ermine]

nah you absolutely want to keep a level 4 hunter dash for serrated edge

aphro special would allow the duo to appear all the same

and weaving a special in isn't hard

[desert nacelle]

or on special

right

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712528599260856355/712534955586093106/unknown.png

nooooooooo

[dry ember]

hold on for that serrated edge dude

[mighty ermine]

don't you dare get rid of that hunter dash!

[desert nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712528599260856355/712535270397837352/unknown.png

🥳

[dry ember]

I'll bite

I'll swap

[naive tusk]

And there they go, being all cute again

[dry ember]

Don't @ me if something goes wrong though

Hey Peach! Slightly off topic but I hope your HotS game went well.

[naive tusk]

Why, thank you! They went well

[cunning urchin]

Do we know if attack speed modifiers affect hit-stop/hit-freeze?

About 4.75 attacks per second with Zag Aspect Malphon and 2 dashes.

[dry ember]

Well thanks for finding that out when no one seems to know.

[cunning urchin]

That's 5.225 attacks per Doom tic. So you're reapplying Doom every 6th hit. 210 msec per hit. That means you're getting a Doom proc every 1.26 seconds.

On a single target when attacking without pause.

So . . . with two dashes, Zag Aspect Malphon base damage is 61.759 per second or 61~62 damage per second.

[cunning urchin]

Assuming rare boons and lowest multipliers:

Curse of Agony: 59.5/sec
Lightning Strike: 59.4/sec
Heartbreak Strike: 58.7/sec
Divine Strike: 46.9/sec
Frost Strike: 46.9/sec
Tempest Strike: 35.2/sec
Deadly Strike (incl. crits): 30.5/sec

That's the damage they add on top of the base damage.

Too lazy to look into Drunken Strike right now.

Extra dashes would put Heartbreak Strike ahead because of the higher base damage from dash-strikes.

I'm gonna do a Curse of Agony + Divine Dash run just for fun.

[cunning urchin]

I think that's a new personal record for Asphodel. https://imgur.com/a/gIwbA7H

TD1 though. I forgot to change it to TD2.

[opal bay]

ay 3-4 minutes is good time I think.

[untold vortex]

ayy niceu

[raw violet]

i'm telling you, my fastest malphon runs are doomfist+athena dash

so far, anyway

[versed bloom]

I would think... sorry which weapon was malphon

[raw violet]

fist

[versed bloom]

Gotcha

I would figure the fists would do best with Zeus, Athena and maybe Demeter

[raw violet]

athena is super safe, yeah

[desert nacelle]

That cold status sound effect souns like Geiger Counter to me

[raw violet]

i just haven't been able to get a faster run with it

but maybe that's a me thing

[sudden dagger]

Whoo 2nd time in Elysium

[cunning urchin]

Almost. A bit slower still. But in fairness, my best time was with EM2 not 3. https://imgur.com/a/vtzzTa1

[raw violet]

yeah, EM3 feels like it slows your pace down quite a bit, for most weapons

[cunning urchin]

They died very fast, though.

[elfin ledge]

does sea storm benefit from zeus lightning bolt upgrades? double chance and larger area

[dense locust]

I think there needs to be an added mode that allows for rng manipulated runs to be distinguished from unmanipulatable seeded runs, or just random seeded runs, because 13:00-14:00 minutes is very fast for an rng unmanipulated run, but i've seen so many of the rng manipulated runs that I've become jaded in ever trying to compete with their times because its statistically impossible to ever stumble upon a run that would allow for a sub 6-7 minute clear.

Ideally there would be a mode that produced a daily or weekly seed so there could be a truly satisfying speed run mode that didn't depend on lucky rng for a given run, or rng manipulation combined with mapping out a run, which can take dozens of hours.

@elfin ledge It should but i haven't tried it in months so i'm not too reliable

[sudden dagger]

Whoo got through the bull and thanos

I have the Hermes dash and Athena reflect

Oh no... Poison...

[novel prawn]

Oh no... Poison...
@sudden dagger every man's greatest fear... except for Mithridates

[sudden dagger]

It seems to counter the "dash everywhere" strategy

[novel prawn]

yeah, you kinda do it to yourself if you accidentally dash in the middle of it. happens to me too

Ok, I have a question regarding Aspect of Arthur, since apparently I can't find much about it on the internet:
I discovered that when you use special near traps it disables them.
But, it doesn't disable just traps that are inside the aura created by the special. it goes beyond the reach of the aura, but I haven't figured out why (is it disabling all traps that you can see on your screen?)...
I'm guessing the disabling of traps is intended, but maybe not to this extent...
Is this bug-report worthy? Or did someone report this already?

[cunning urchin]

Drunken Strike on Malphon is very underwhelming.

[lapis matrix]

Yeah

The hangover doesn't really stack up that high

5 stacks max and it's pretty low on attack

[novel prawn]

yeah, I tried that on malphon too. didn't have that much success with it

[lapis matrix]

It's like 4 on common

So that's 20 damage on the lowend

[desert nacelle]

338 health - sustain is the goal of life

[cunning urchin]

The damage per se is fine. Rare Drunken Strike adds 30 damage in the first second and 50/sec after that. It scales nicely with levels, too.

The problem is it has no synergy with any other Gods or any hammer upgrades for Malphon. Maybe if you put Heartbreak Flourish on Talos Aspect.

Hmm. That low damage in the first second would hurt your DPS a lot of over time. Lightning Strike or Heartbreak Strike would add about 59 damage in that first second (and any second after that).

[lapis matrix]

Hangover doesn't last that long either

[turbid arch]

4 seconds.

It's pretty basic.

[cunning urchin]

Duration doesn't matter because you can reapply it right away.

[turbid arch]

It kinda does matter because if it were longer lasting, it would diminish the usefulness of attacking fast for extended periods of time.

[real nebula]

• each stack decays individually, so you have to really focus on hangover attacks to keep it going

which is sad

[turbid arch]

I don't think it is because Hangover is just good.

A nice reliable high damage DOT that also applies a debuff for privileged status.

[cunning urchin]

With 8 stacks max, that's still only 30 damage in the first second and 65 in the first 1.5 seconds. Lightning Strike does 89 dmg in that time, Heartbreak Strike does 88. Curse of Agony does 75 damage in 1.1 seconds.

[real nebula]

mmm, hangover just feels like it does way less damage than other effects

[turbid arch]

Decent duration and a lot of ways to further improve it.

@cunning urchin With what weapon?

[cunning urchin]

Zag Aspect Malphon and 2 dashes.

[turbid arch]

Well what can I say

you don't bring a DPS weapon to a burst race.

Poison is high sustained DPS that synergizes greatly with other dionysus boons as well as with other gods in general.

Dionysus Attack, special, dash and wrath fit in almost every run to give you free extra damage and access to privileged status.

There are also plenty high heated runs that make extensive use of him.

[real nebula]

I think the point is that it does fine damage, but compared to other available effects it's worse

[cunning urchin]

It's not about making a point. I'm simply looking at Malphon DPS numbers.

Trash mobs should die within the first 1~2 seconds with Zag Malphon. Being that far behind other attack boons in that time frame makes it a pretty poor option.

[gray lintel]

i don't think dionysus even has any percentage attack

[lapis matrix]

Nope

Zeus and Ares don't either

[gaunt tundra]

dio doesn't

its just that the flat damage he does is fairly fast so the dps is high

[vestal patrol]

Hangover feels like its in a really weird position for me. Imo its amazing on certain items (zeus shield, adamant rail) but garbage on things like sword or bow

[gaunt tundra]

also i think the hangover can be reapplied in several instances

i might be wrong in this though

[cunning urchin]

Even if you somehow applied all 5 stacks immediately, it still loses out to Doom on both attack and special.

[gaunt tundra]

in the long run is better if you have fast weapons

because doom has a time period where it just won't do anything

also hangover works for the cursed status, doom don't as far as i've seen

[lapis matrix]

I does

It doesn't work as well

Since it clears itself pretty quickly

[gaunt tundra]

that's why is better in fast weapons, so you can reapply it over and over and keep the dps going

falls a bit flat on slower weapons though

[cunning urchin]

No, I've accounted for Doom tic delay. With Zag Malphon you get a Doom proc every ~1.26 seconds. So a rare Cursey of Agony does 75 damage every 1.26 seconds. With 5 stacks, a rare Drunken Strike does 63 damage in 1.26 seconds.

[gaunt tundra]

when we add curse though, how does the dps stand?

i'm also regarding economics and likely of build in there is easier to get 2 status blessing than 3 (2 with status + ares)

economics in the way of how taxing on potential buffs is to get more doom blessings and leaving the rest behind i mean

[lapis matrix]

Zeus and Poseidon's status curses take an extra boon

So we would want to go Demeter, Aphrodite, and Dio

Artemis also takes an extra boon

[gaunt tundra]

you don't need all 3

dio and aphro, or dio and deme already causes the curse status

[lapis matrix]

I suppose I meant or