Dire misfortune is plenty noticeable with Chiron bow and any rail
#h1-builds-and-combat
lament coral
it's not noticeable if you hit the enemy twice during doom's duration, it's plenty noticeable if you do so 7-11 times
dense locust
Well the focus of my build was doom attack with merciful end and athena dashes so they never stacked up too much unless I was peppering a foe from afar
Eris rail with athena dash and rocket bomb and delta chamber hammers. Athena call was up like 90% of the time against Hades: https://imgur.com/KQLmL4K
sullen valley
I...still don’t know what Dire Misfortune does 😓
turbid needle
Every additional stack of Doom you apply on an enemy before it fires makes it hit 10 points harder.
azure lake
it scales with impending doom and straight % dmg, with fast attacking weapons it's actually really good, especially with privileged status
naive laurel
On a side note, wiki is really outdated
2bh w/ fast attacking weapons there's zeus and even dio for them
azure lake
the scaling on zeus and dio is so bad ...
naive laurel
This is not better either so... May was well Go for artemis % boost
azure lake
like, I tried runs with zag aspect rail gun and flurry fire, where I had zeus' attack + support fire, damage was insane until elysium, after that fell off a cliff
turbid needle
Oh, it's 10 at Epic? Yikes.
azure lake
it's still decent, i guess
naive laurel
Nah, it's better just doom and run, Since holding that down and standing still...ugh
Which is why I usually have special build on rail
turbid needle
Lightning Strike on the Rail is awesome.
azure lake
well it feels awesome uptil elysium, then you have no damage for some reason
naive laurel
Depends, I always have insurance dmg source for this kinda build
azure lake
I guess the main reason is the diminishing returns on the upgrades, if they got rid of that at least for flat damage builds, it would be fine
naive laurel
Plus, I used to use zeus fist and support fire and fam fav, the dmg is fairly consistent
Zeus late game dmg is dependant on jolted, so Before elysium u need to get it
turbid needle
Strong disagree.
Jolted damage is super useful, but lightning damage in and of itself is very strong.
naive laurel
That's ofc but in late game We need as much dmg source as possible, which is why jolted is needed
As he said, dmg does fall off, If u pick more poms than boons on those
Imo the methods to get late game power for these is more on picking up boons than poms
These low scaling dmg source, ofc
azure lake
well i mean, even if you upgrade epic lightning strike you got what 20 dmg ? it's insane early since it basically triple your DPS but you can't scale after that, except with support fire which is +15 per hit, which makes it ok, 45 per hit with the rail gun is nice but against Hades that's quite low compared to other builds
You need jolted badly anyway for privileged status
turbid needle
Jolted is for Privileged Status.
naive laurel
Yep
However w/ fam fav, jolted lvl 2 can do as much as 250 per trigger
One lvl of jolted is huge enough
azure lake
yeah i meant privileged status sorry, yeah but even if it's a good chunk, it doesn't proc that much against bosses
naive laurel
Yeah, but 250 dmg is 250
non-burst dmg against boss is not gonna be high from these rapid fire weapons
Cuz their base is not good
Plus, jolted is usually up at all times, since lightning strike is usually paired w/ rapid attack
(which sadly makes zeus demeter duo boon not very good)
azure lake
the base it not good because of added flat damage that doesn't scale, if you go artemis' auto and chaos' increase attack damage + privileged status etc you'll deal way more damage against hades than with lightning strike etc
naive laurel
No I mean the rapid fire dmg itself doesn't do much dmg, and them usually requires u standing still to keep the dmg up
which is very, very bad for me
turbid needle
I beat the game on 32 Heat with lightning, I don't know what to tell you.
I've been playing a long time, yes, but I am not so good at this game that I can hammer out high heat wins with bad builds.
azure lake
well tbh i'm a beginner etc, it's just how I feel, maybe I did something wrong
turbid needle
Which is why I don't have any Poseidon clears at 32 Heat.
azure lake
did you get Zeus' legendary in those clears maybe ?
turbid needle
I did.
azure lake
that might help a lot tbh
naive laurel
"I can hammer out high heat wins with bad builds." That's already disqualifying u from being "not so good" 2bh
hmm i was quoting something and I cannot send in this channel
i think discord farted a bit
turbid needle
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhh, why are you taking a sentence fragment out of context?
I've been playing a long time, yes, but I am not so good at this game that I can hammer out high heat wins with bad builds.
@turbid needle
azure lake
Also I wasn't playing with privileged when I tried and forced artemis for support fire, it might be bad, what do you get for the priv status ? Anything that comes ?
turbid needle
Family Favorite is better for crit builds than Privileged Status.
azure lake
Oh i was speaking about the rail gun lightning strike build
naive laurel
Rail gun lightning is not my fav, fist is. But from my usual experience I go for many good god boons on right places to boost their dmg
athena dash (duh)
Any call that might grant me invincibility, or as scary as artemis call that deletes a phase from bosses
then get something like different league
probably poseidon cast to keep distance?
And poof u got 5 gods already excluding hermes
copper lotus
I think Fated Persuasion should work on Deadalus Hammer
naive laurel
Oh a lot of people does, and I agree
But...make it 2 rerolls
since beginning
cuz how run-changing it is
turbid needle
No.
naive laurel
Wow that's my most played weapon aspect
turbid needle
Use it, attack once, use it again, try to get a double charge.
naive laurel
I usually get a 2nd cast charge for it tho
I guess that definitely blinded me from realizing this
turbid needle
Was fighting Tisiphone and was wondering why occasionally she was eating 142 from a Cast instead of 314.
naive laurel
My usually gameplay w/ that is, special special cast cast, rinse and repeat
interesting...
turbid needle
Fully Loaded locked behind 2 Cast boons is even more of a slap in the face when Artemis won't give me the friggin' Cast boons..
round summit
I just completed one of the easiest runs I've ever had in this game
Used only 2 Death Defiances, one of which was an Athena boon
naive laurel
Nice
My own best final finish was a 3 dd full health ending run Iirc, hades didn't get to dmg me at all
round summit
now thats something
i can't stay safe
i get too greedy
I'll send 2 screenshot of the run, the one when I finished and the one from the exec chamber
bot doesn't like me
ok there we go
I always try to get as many boons as possible, so I run Olympian Favor
it's free damage
I always try to get as many boons as possible, so I run Olympian Favor
actually I don't remember if that's the name but it's the one with +6% damage for each god
restive widget
does the special athena deflect even work on the rail?
turbid needle
Yup.
restive widget
Hmm, ok
is it worth trying over the attack?
Cheers for super quick reply, @turbid needle 🙂
sullen valley
If you’re good at timing Rail Special detonations with enemy attacks yeah
restive widget
basically never tried the rail before
sullen valley
..****
turbid needle
It's good for the big damage modifier, I would not try to mess with using Bombard as a reliable deflector.
restive widget
makes sense, probably some more useful specials on that one
turbid needle
Deadly Flourish on Bombard is nuts.
sullen valley
Eh, I prefer something that focuses on base damage addition or +damage %
naive laurel
50 is a lot as a base for % increase
restive widget
just had a run with the bow using deadly flourish.. soo much dmg
naive laurel
25 might be good for doom infliction
sullen valley
Deadly Flourish is better for the bow yeah
turbid needle
No, it's better on the Rail.
sullen valley
It’s better for rapid fire attacks Schpoon
turbid needle
restive widget
at least you would have a higher chance of proccing the crit with a rapid fire weapon
turbid needle
No, it's not.
sullen valley
snrk
restive widget
but if you are lucky to crit the bomb, that's probably nice 🙂
manic ermine
Rapid fire doesn't matter, bow barrage just deals more damage
sullen valley
I mean...it kind of is?
turbid needle
Have you ever used Hestia?
sullen valley
Yep
azure lake
@turbid needle I must apologize, I just retried lightning strike rail gun with zag aspect, I didn't had all of the mirror last times I tried to play with that, with everything and a better understanding of the game I just ran through the levels super easy. You were right
sullen valley
I’d better use Artemis Attack for Zagreus aspect though
More opportunities for crit Attack rather than focusing on sniping
I’ve no doubt it’d be excellent on a fully upgraded Hestia shot,
naive laurel
U guys need to just think artemis dmg boost as a 2-time multiplier, and do the math for the average dmg boost
turbid needle
It's a 3x multiplier.
sullen valley
But I would better prefer it on a Chiron or Knuckles.
If you hit all of your shots with Hestia it may be of use to you
naive laurel
No i mean if it's a 20% chance of 3x, then it's a 1.4x on top of what she passively provides
in the large scheme of things
And this, for example, 1.4x, also stacks w/ chaoes boost w/o being affected by diminishing returns
going from 280% flat to 360% is worse than a 200%* 1.4 to 280% *1.4
azure lake
@sullen valley I'd prefer artemis on aspect of Eris tbh
turbid needle
60% damage bonus, which gets big with crits.
naive laurel
Artemis is usually my go-to on most weapons anyways, but yes, that 60% definitely fully stacks w/ the crit, not sure about other sources of dmg boost
azure lake
if you have eris + spread fire + artemis' attack and dash it can become quite absurd I guess, dunno if the 12 ammo are an issued compared to 24
naive laurel
I'd bet we need to move before depleting 12 bullets anyways, so reload is well able to be slid in
I think I got eris spread fire and apho atk once
it's pretty good dmg
azure lake
- if you can got rocket shot and/or spread fire, might be dumb
Don't have eris unlocked but i'm curious
naive laurel
I always use eris :p since it has most room for error in matter of runs
I can even do cast build w/ it since that 60% is sweet enough
imma try hestia later tho
azure lake
oh yeah I guess it works on cast too
naive laurel
It boosts everything, so there's once I got a heroic hangover on the attack, and it also crits, and it's just beautiful
pressure point crit, ofc
stiff stone
@mint vortex each door has a set number of possible rewards, 3/4 perhaps, so that you cannot reroll rooms into boons for every gold laurel.
turbid needle
That's not true, any gold laurel can roll into any other, besides Hammers if you already have 1/2.
mint vortex
I've never encountered a gold laurel door that couldn't be rerolled between obals, centaur hearts, poms, and boons in all my 150-ish runs.
Until that one, seemingly.
turbid needle
You won't always get any boon, but the issue of rerolling between a heart and Pom or Pom and Obol multiple times before a boon or hammer appears is real.
Sometimes they skunk you, which feels even worse.
But this has been a known issue for a long time now so I don't think it's going away.
mint vortex
I've had them re-roll the same reward, but eventually they always get to what you want.
Usually, they only reroll the same thing once, and that's not a huge deal, but when it happens 5 times, that's a problem.
turbid needle
On those doors it's more common for you to burn 4 rerolls than 1.
exotic turtle
i find when ive used the re roll on doors with boons, it usually cycles between only three total boons for any given door plus gold. so like ill reroll a poseidon room, get ares and reroll and gain and get athena, then reroll again and get poseidon again. not sure if this type of relation is actually a thing but in all of my runs ive noticed it.
i dont think ive ever gotten more than 3 different gods when i have used up to atleast 5 on a door before
naive laurel
Fury sisters died very fast
and then, this
https://imgur.com/rhE7wyf
Lost 2 dd to hades since dodging while also firing special isn't my strongsuit
naive laurel
I think imma get carried by this....https://imgur.com/aCPDRUi
turbid needle
Probably.
naive laurel
Yep, that was a 26min finish
Got the legendary tok
Btw, does dashstrike dmg bonus stack with hestia shot?
Nvm just tested, It does, "just" 339 dmg
Crit is 1314 dmg, this is gonna be nasty on bosses..
tall yarrow
selling an epic level 3 attack boon because its still better to spam special... 😦
naive laurel
On what weapon what special..
naive laurel
If it's athena or demeter attack...I thunk u should keep It
tall yarrow
I was going special from the start and got two hammer upgrades for it
but i pulled an epic chaos and epic demeter attack buff back to back so decided to try
then just spammed special during champions anyway
i have athena dash so i dont need the attack
naive laurel
I mean, u would want regen eventually
tall yarrow
eh my special does +212% damage, charges for +200%, and is 21% faster. I'll be fine...
naive laurel
Well I think u can handle It w/ this and normal regen
tall yarrow
i don't know if this "minimum range is reduced" works right.. suddenly my "minimum range" is like the normal range and the charged one is way off the screen
does the range increase with damage and/or speed?
naive laurel
Just the Effect I think, Neither speed or dmg
On a side note...my crit hestia shot does 2100 dmg now...
1 shotted the elite crusher's armor..
tall yarrow
some quirk of temple of styx i guess. it's not doing it during encounters
naive laurel
Oh I think styx is more zoomed in
turbid needle
Can you sweat react to that message so I can click it?
fallow niche
np my friend 
So the same guy has WR for all 3 categories atm
And he didn't start too long ago either
Kind of crazy
turbid needle
Hey, remember like 6 weeks ago when that was the any% WR?
fallow niche
you mean like 3 weeks ago?
😂
We're aiming for sub-4 now
Going to be really hard though
proper jolt
is it just me or is the Zag aspect on the spear Really really bad
shadow oriole
spear is just kind of bad all around
fallow niche
Zag spear is good
Get Flurry Jab or Explosive Launcher
Achilles spear is wonky and Hades spear is bad, yeah, but Guan Yu is really good
turbid needle
Aspect of Hades is super scary with Serrated Edge, though Guan Yu might do that better.
fallow niche
You literally cannot spin with Flurry Jab
Its just a strictly worse Zag aspect with it
Also you cannot get Flurry Jab on Hades aspect according to the wiki
chrome viper
did they finally fix that? that's cool
you could still get flurry jab with hades aspect last patch iirc
how come it was better? getting flurry jab with it effectively downgraded you to a level 0 Zag aspect, it's objectively worse lol
dense locust
To respond to a convo this morning, Athena rocket bomb along with triple bomb was my first 32 heat and works pretty well, although it’s not a build I would try and go for, but if it’s what you find yourself in, it’s not bad. It also opens up deadly reversal if you you find yourself with Artemis cast (I wouldn’t recommend artemis attack, dash, or call if you’re heading towards a special build).
Outside of zag aspect, I think I only touched the other two spear aspects once each until guan yu came about
naive laurel
Imo achilles aspect is pretty busted for cast build as long u still have aoe option available
Have had a Triple dash Hammer upgrade run with it, the dash deal with the normal enemies while artemis cast dunks on boss
young mural
Artemis best boon is the seeking arrow when a attack,cast or special hits imo.With the Adamant Rail you get so much xtra dps
naive laurel
Artemis best boon is fully loaded No doubt
turbid needle
Artemis is the most flexible god in the game. She has busted runs for every weapon. She doesn't have a single "best" boon.
young mural
Is fully loaded the legendary?
turbid needle
Yes.
naive laurel
But Since I started the new save after the requirement change, I haven't got it on the hell save yet
young mural
But apart from that the seeking arrow is so gooood
naive laurel
Still, Chaoes extra cast stone would suffice
turbid needle
You mean Flurry Shot?
naive laurel
Seeking arrow is specific to rail and fist
turbid needle
The Hermes boon that makes your Cast automatic?
turbid needle
Ooh, yeah, that's a very good boon.
young mural
I know that cast has good damage but for me its just a tool to apply the 50% dmg buff from the mirrot
*mirror
naive laurel
Zeus fist with Seeking arrow is one of the most busted build I've done
young mural
Imagine if that stacked per cast lol
Ive nearly maxed the zag aspect of the Adamant Rail
So i can hold m1 on enemys and get so many arrows
Its nutty
turbid needle
Malphon/Exagryph with Lightning Strike and Support Fire is wonderful.
young mural
Zeus ?
turbid needle
The god, Zeus?
naive laurel
Cuz zeus is extremely depandant on dmg rate
turbid needle
His call is fantastic, top 2 Call if you don't have a more synergistic build.
young mural
I really like the Rail
young mural
Any hammer upgrade to the Q is good
And the 5 shot can basically be hazard bomb
That doesnt hurt you lol
Just fire it in yourself if your near something to nuke it
turbid needle
Hazard Bomb does break the +% damage rule.
young mural
Hazard bomb
turbid needle
It adds +200% to Bombard's base damage.
young mural
Is nutty
naive laurel
Rail is the Only weapon that with It I wish I see the Hammer outside my room every time instead of the god boon
young mural
All of my gun runs have hazard bomb
turbid needle
I'm an Eris main so I never use it, but if I ever use Hestia it's a wonderful Hammer.
young mural
Look
I got rare crop so early
And it just decided to make Frost Flourish eat everything
turbid needle
Nah, you need 12 Chambers to max out boons.
young mural
I got the king and the mino to half health at the same time
naive laurel
Yeah, styx chambers are fast af
young mural
That was the run with Artemis legendary
As you can see,it wasnt very pertinent
Athenas call is also super good
naive laurel
I may need to do a run to go specifically towards artemis legendary rn
naive laurel
Current pre-requisite is just too much
young mural
It was the last boon i got in the store lol
So lucky
Only reason i got the gold for it was from pots
turbid needle
I wonder what the speedrunning community is gonna do once Spread Fire gets reverted.
young mural
Is spread fire the shotgun hammer or the 5 bombs
turbid needle
I haven't seen Fully Loaded since the change, and today I finally got both Dual Shot and Exit Wounds.
naive laurel
I think I had a run where I got both "guided lazer" and fully loaded in the last 2 god boons
turbid needle
One of my least favorite changes they've made in the year I've been playing.
naive laurel
Then hades just melted in 45s, both phase
turbid needle
"I like to call this build Hyper Crystal, from Nuclear Throne."
naive laurel
Ahh
young mural
I killed hades in 1 minute 26 seconds
naive laurel
I call It prism tower
young mural
I had the timer pact on so thats how i knew
naive laurel
U know what ref that is
naive laurel
Nah
young mural
1% is so little
naive laurel
Having to move after is the punishment
young mural
I only really cared about it if i was running butterfly
turbid needle
Uh, I haven't played Pokemon Y in 6 years, you got me.
naive laurel
Uhm I think it's a red alert 2 ref :p
naive laurel
Not Even sure If it's the right way of calling those, since that ref in my brain is in another language
turbid needle
No, it's Prism Tower in RA2.
naive laurel
Anyways, back to hazard bomb it's not as good when lasting consequences kicks in
Ahh Nice, I guess my brain canstill remember Einstein's crazy ramble well enough lul
turbid needle
I almost never use Lasting Consequences.
naive laurel
Me currently neither, but, I'm getting close to 20 on all weapons, and the later ones might demand me to give It another 1 or 2 lvl
turbid needle
I've only ever used one level for 32 Heat.
naive laurel
I was experimenting with hard labor and jury summons earlier, It seems zeus zeus shield can work at 19 well enough
Oh It's hell save, So it's automatically locked at lvl 1 at least
turbid needle
I'll mess with Hell Mode after I've seen the Final True Ending on a vanilla file.
naive laurel
Welp, I went for that one cuz it's fairly challenging instead of having no motivation to climb heat lvl.
Plus I have a 30 winsteak on my vanilla save in the climb with some self-imposed rules, and I don't wanna break It.
I have made some diablo-like suggestions in the feedback channel and people seems to be divided By It too.
In the end I kinda want some grindability to happen after the true ending so that the save still serves a purpose
@olive badge doesn't that suggestion makes it strictly better than premium vintage almost all the time?
olive badge
not exactly
since picking up the nectar give you a free pom basically
you just get health as a bonus
I always pick that because it's practically a free pom
shadow oriole
premium vintage adds more functionality to other rooms too
olive badge
and the difference here is when you pick premium vintage in Styx it still does something, unlike the Aphrodite's one
naive laurel
Apho gives +50 on average over a course of the run, should we make It give a heart It might go to 60-70 depending on how u nerf it 2bh
olive badge
also, even at legendary rank it gives you like 100%
naive laurel
It's gonna be gutted in early game
olive badge
so a free heart is 50 HP with nothing else
and Premium Vintage is +1 boon level AND 30 HP
and you can pick Vintage and still get HP
turbid needle
30 HP if you get it Epic.
olive badge
the difference here is once you have like 200-ish already more HP is less valuable (imo) and damage is more valuable
and vintage is the best of both world basically
and that's also why I said nerf life affirmation number on that feedback
naive laurel
I guess nectar on my side might be bugged cuz as non-room reward It mostly doesn't upgrade lvls
olive badge
it does on mine
even random Trove drop
or Dionysus boon
probably you just missed the pop up
naive laurel
Oh I rely on the popup to check It, which is why I think It's bugged
I might've missed the lvlup due to popup being bugged
turbid needle
Trove drops shouldn't be leveling up boons.
turbid needle
Only room drops and the PV drop should.
olive badge
yeah
but I saw the Nectar does which weird me out
darkness still heal if you have that talent active though
turbid needle
Yes, but it doesn't provide you a (semi-)permanent HP-up.
olive badge
what do you guys like more? Fated Authority or Persuasion?
I just prefer Persuasion because it gives me an easier time with Chaos
authority is nice but Chaos screwed me over too many times
shadow oriole
take every chaos gate
sullen valley
That’s how I do
naive laurel
This guy here takes Chaoes choice based on outcome instead of consequences.
Every chaoes gate, ofc
Sometimes I got myself into dash-only situations
olive badge
me too, only outcome
chaos negatives can't kill you
so you won't die if you don't get hit
naive laurel
I actually saved a dd By doing that at 1 health, against meg I think
olive badge
there was one time I got cast damage for my cast build, except the downside is take 5 damage every cast
it was hell because I had no attack nor special damage at that point
so I just roll with it and stayed at 1HP
sullen valley
Heck naw
sullen valley
Hehehehehehe
olive badge
how else do you play bow?
@shadow oriole
usually crying
shadow oriole
thats your problem, tears make it hard to see
sullen valley
Oof
shadow oriole
yeah the shield guys suck hard with bow
naive laurel
Wait a sec, I just realized, guanyu aspect basically has improved exploding launcher by default right...
olive badge
can you get both of them tho
turbid needle
You cannot.
naive laurel
Aren't they both 50 dmg?
turbid needle
EL is 60.
naive laurel
Says 50 here in game
turbid needle
Exploding Launcher?
naive laurel
Yep
turbid needle
Got a screenshot?
naive laurel
Lemme finish room
olive badge
spoiler alert if you haven't got the 4th aspect tho
turbid needle
It was nerfed at some point and I have no idea why, then.
naive laurel
Do u still need the sc?
turbid needle
Gameplay spoilers are free range here, you're on your own concerning them.
naive laurel
Ss*
turbid needle
If you're not offering it up as proof that it's 60, no.
turbid needle
I'd like to see Hades get a revamp.
olive badge
I mean the only change it needs is let the spin power up too
and you have a safer DPS option than Guan Yu
turbid needle
Guan Yu's spin is a ranged attack and has healing.
olive badge
250 damage spin
earnest ravine
It alters the base game plan of the spar way less than the other olypmian aspects. Feels kinda out of place.
turbid needle
You trade HP for range.
naive laurel
Imo, It should just have fast spin by default, and each enemy spinned empower the next spin
olive badge
I think fast spin by default is a bit OP
I just need to have the debuff trigger privileged status
turbid needle
I had a feedback weeks ago about changing its spin attack to mimic Hades's.
olive badge
AND increasing spin damage
turbid needle
Much faster charge, lunging spin attack, 40 base damage.
Keep PS locked to Olympian boons.
olive badge
as of right now no weapon debuffs count for PS anw
naive laurel
Btw, a week ago someone asked about how Rocket and slow bomb interacts
The Rocket slows after hitting them, which is kinda funny
sullen valley
Weird
olive badge
rocket + triple bomb is fun
sullen valley
I wish we could get 3 hammers U_U
Like, as a chance to replace Hermes’ 500 gold thing
naive laurel
Actually, I think It should straight up replace the TB or diamond
turbid needle
There was a point, in the ancient past, where we could get both a third Hammer and Hermes boon in Styx.
olive badge
I just wish there was a way to change upgrade
because sometimes I just get upgrades I don't want AT ALL
turbid needle
I'd do horrible things to innocent people to reroll a Hammer without Fated Persuasion.
naive laurel
Persuasion, make It happen
olive badge
Fated Persuasion on Hammer be like
naive laurel
I'd even say I'd gladly pay 2 rerolls for a single roll
olive badge
heyyyy Hammer maybe you could just not, idk, suck
olive badge
yeah Daedalus is a stone cold man
for not letting us persuade his hammer
they will nerf the shotgun dash build next patch
and I only got it like twice
come on let me abuse it more
turbid needle
It used to be a cheesy Dio/Dem build.
olive badge
let me dash into my enemies then shot gun them to death
naive laurel
Ok guys, place ur bet, imma get a athena boon soon, I have artemis special and brilliant reposite, so, would I get the duo boon or the 20s shield
olive badge
literally Doom: Greek Edition
turbid needle
Mick Gordon's At DOOM's Gate as played on a lyre. 
olive badge
Ok guys, place ur bet, imma get a athena boon soon, I have artemis special and brilliant reposite, so, would I get the duo boon or the 20s shield
@naive laurel shield
turbid needle
Deadly Reversal.
olive badge
I think the funniest thing about the shotgun is that it's practically the only one benefit from dashstrike
and they're gonna nerf it anw
so Artemis will forever gimp hexagryph with dash strike damage
if anything, the most reasonable nerf would be to let the shotgun mod consumes 2-3 bullets instead of one every shot
so that Zag aspect is still viable for it
turbid needle
It's the only Dash-Strike on Exagryph.
olive badge
but not heavily overpowered
turbid needle
And simply reverting it to a five-shot burst instead of a singular wave would fix it.
naive laurel
olive badge
i am never wrong
naive laurel
And on pickup zag literally says "divine protection" 
olive badge
idk shotgun mod is very fun to use
turbid needle
It is!
olive badge
but I do feel like it's overpowered
turbid needle
But as far as Dash Attack builds go on Exagryph, it's the only one.
olive badge
nerfing the ammo usage would definitely make it useless on Eris too
turbid needle
It might be a little?
olive badge
because I saw some Eris build with it lmao
turbid needle
Okay, if they mess with Exagryph's ammo count, I'll be steamed.
turbid needle
The issue is that it's a huge AoE hitbox with high damage.
naive laurel
Wait what about serrated edge dash build
turbid needle
Serrated Edge hits 3 times.
olive badge
yeah you reduce the DPS by making the player reload more
that's the idea
and not get Hermes +3 dash and go to town
naive laurel
Also, remember that run where I Got 2500 Crit on dash hestia shot...
I Got f'd by lack of aoe
turbid needle
Explosive/Piercing Shot on the Rail is always a good idea if you've an Attack build.
naive laurel
Yep, and there comes the bad hammers
olive badge
I remember when building Arthur
and the one I got was the 25 damage shockwave, the one where I lose 60% HP and the one where it gives me dash strike
the only thing I ever wanted on arthur is backstab and armor break tbh
dense locust
Shotgun build is fun but at higher heats it's dangerous af
dense locust
@naive laurel That's why going a special heavy build with rocket bomb on eris is my fave because you can still get those 2500 crits but with big aoe
maybe 2k is more likely but still
turbid needle
Yup!
dense locust
Yeah ill either just shoot a wall if no ones around or just dash in and do a bit of a dash-by rocket
it's honestly easier to keep eris up for me
because you don't have to wait around for the bomb to land
naive laurel
I got Rocket and the Rocket slow, aince the other options were kinda worse
olive badge
triple rocket tho
dense locust
rocket slow isn't great but I haven't tried it much
olive badge
dense locust
triple rocket is the ideal
naive laurel
The Rocket slow helped on hitting the hestia shot
dense locust
cluster rocket can be good
naive laurel
But, It falls off in styx
turbid needle
I prefer Triple Bombard and Inescapable Blast if I'm going with that build.
dense locust
ahhh yeah the slow bomb is my favorite hestia hammer
turbid needle
Slow never falls off.
naive laurel
Kinda Did Since there's 4 blasted snakestones shooting me at the Same time
turbid needle
One enemy out of the many in that area (including the final boss) doesn't feel like falling off to me.
dense locust
I do still hate having to iframe everytime I want eris up with inescapable blast though
turbid needle
Triple Slow bombs is how I beat 32 Heat with an Eris Lightning run.
dense locust
Oh you were referring to hestia?
naive laurel
Oh frick, Got the bow as dark weapon
turbid needle
Crit bombs may have been involved as well
Hang on, @naive laurel
Lemme grab you a screenshot so you have an idea what to look for.
naive laurel
Yep that run was hestia, huge boss dmg shiet room clear
dense locust
triple slow bombs is friggin awesome
Throw demeter attack on there, maybe artemis on the special, and the enemies will just watch you as you pelt them
dense locust
Demeter has brought me the most luck for chiron bow
on special
doom attack
pray for chain shot
naive laurel
Oh I usually stick to Apho atk artemis special
Heart rend, and rely on cast for aoe
dense locust
Classic combo
naive laurel
Posideon cast most of the time
dense locust
I find the damage underwhelming sometimes though. Depends on the boon levels, heat choices, etc
Demeter special and doom attack is my shoot-and-run-away build
naive laurel
Yeah...and self rooting during special is....deadly on 40% overtime
dense locust
My favorite is room 1 hammer because it means you can easily just give up and choose a different weapon to do a build that might rely on a certain hammer
turbid needle
Until you try to use Malphon and it spawns Explosive Upper on Zag Aspect and Long Knuckle but not Explosive Upper in Elysium on Demeter Aspect.
dense locust
well, as far as a build that relies on one hammer
If I want eris rocket bomb for example
or charged skewer guan yu
turbid needle
Long Knuck Zag Malphon, Double Edge Nemesis, couple of things for Hades/Guan Yu spear.
Exagryph can also run Flurry Fire with Zeus, Dio, or Dem.
dense locust
Omg i felt like the game never wanted me to get double edge when I was trying to do nemesis build
went through like 6 runs before I finally got it
turbid needle
You'll notice Haelian's WR speedrun spawned into it.
dense locust
Any speed run is gonna as ideal as possible as far as hammers and boons
naive laurel
Oh Rip
dense locust
so that's no surprise
naive laurel
I think Imma get artemis atk demeter apecial
dense locust
hmm, maybe athena dash and go for deadly reversal?
turbid needle
With Nemesis?
naive laurel
ANd..........demeter is offering exhange on atk, lmao
Hmmmmm, I think I might go guided lazer Since It's the Only other epic option
Pray time
dense locust
Sometimes you gotta transition into a cast build, or sometimes it's nice supplemental damage
dense locust
yeah I like chain shot with ares attack; ares special would be a waste
turbid needle
Non-Chiron Curse of Pain on Coronacht isn't bad.
naive laurel
Does lightning strike each time a special hits?
turbid needle
Not on Chiron.
naive laurel
Rip
turbid needle
And not on most Specials.
Aspect of Zeus hits every pulse.
I think Triple Bomb on Exagryph will as well.
But that's not worth using.
olive badge
speedruns are usually seeded
so like if you start a run with a hammer with double edge on it
you reset the run and change into nemesis basically
turbid needle
Easy 32 Heat runs.
olive badge
is maxing excalibur worth it at all
I feel like I only run it for the moveset
the aura is nice for the slow but damage reduction is meh
dense locust
Umm, if I had to choose what to spend my blood on, I wouldn't
However, I find excalibur a lot of fun
especially at sub 20 heats
turbid needle
4th Aspects have seemed to me so far to be a little more high-skilled.
dense locust
The attack animations on it are frustrating for me though
earnest ravine
I'd say if you plan on taking it into full hard labor+FO runs it's worth it, otherwise it shines fine on its own.
dense locust
I feel like there is a way to manipulate the attack animations so that you can dask attack around and then dash in and land the big swipe, but i haven't been able to do it reliably
olive badge
excalibur I find it to be not highskilled at all imo
I could reliably do the dash cancel attack
not the dash attack
turbid needle
🤷
olive badge
but the one where you dash during the wind up for repositioning
turbid needle
To be fair, I haven't used it that much.
dense locust
Yeah I retract my statement, you'll be fine with it up to 20 heat
turbid needle
But that in itself seems to be pretty high-skill.
earnest ravine
It absolutely slaughters anything that can't hit you out of the attack, but if things start being able to interupt you it gets annoying.
olive badge
and if you get hermes attack
it's sick
maybe I am just used to the zweihander moveset
dense locust
hermes attack 😮
earnest ravine
so iunno. Guess it varies on your heat choices.
olive badge
it speeds up the 3rd strike a lot
dense locust
the 30%?
olive badge
any % helps
earnest ravine
Hermes attack is SO good on it ;-;
naive laurel
Have tried It, It's huge
olive badge
12% you can notice the difference already
dense locust
Just try and keep forced over time off as long as you comfortably can
olive badge
crazy because it's the weapon I have the fastest clear with
thanks to the AOE lmao
plus chopping 2 Hydra heads at once is sick
earnest ravine
Eh? I mean, in my opinion it's better to work on FO on its own early so you don't have to readjust to it after working your way up.
dense locust
the big swipe can crit for 2k+ in like the 7th chamber
dense locust
Yeah it is better to get used to FO speed
dense locust
But getting used to excalibur and FO is a whole other animal
what is that like 5k crit?
only 3k crit backstab?
earnest ravine
That sounds beautiful
olive badge
yeah it should but apparently the backstab damage itself doesn't crit
dense locust
oooooh
turbid needle
Last time I broke 5k on a crit.
The highest I'd seen besides was a 4k World Splitter crit before Exalibur dropped.
olive badge
or it wasn't the 3rd strike
I can't recall
but I killed last boss in as little as 45s
I always like Armor Break on Excalibur simply for easier Hydra
dense locust
lol holy crap that god gauge built up insanely fast
olive badge
break the armor with first 2 swings and just straight up kill it with the 3rd
dense locust
armor break is always welcome for me
dense locust
When I lose a dd, there is a pause in the action, is there a setting to make it instant like that?
olive badge
the 15 one was from Hexagryph shotgun build
turbid needle
Keep in mind that run is so old that Support Fire was still Artemis's Legendary.
dense locust
I do wish the legendaries weren't sometimes extremely build specific
Oh so losing a dd back then didn't have a little pause
turbid needle
I wish the pause weren't so long.
naive laurel
Welp
Died cuz of insufficient SINGLE TARGET dmg
All 3 dd lost in elysium boss fight
naive laurel
Chain attack helped So much
clear dome
you just spam dash attack
cunning urchin
dense locust
If it's extreme measures hydra, I find constantly attacking while trying to safely maneuver in a circle around the stage over and over helps so that you don't get head slammed. Poseidon call also destroys
I mean that also applies to non-EM hydra
naive laurel
Just Got quick spin and artemis attack on guanyu aspect... Probably Not gonna be a hard run
dense locust
One level 2 call pretty much kills 3 unarmored heads, or breaks 3 heads' armor
as long as it's not 40 heat
@naive laurel
naive laurel
17, I'm still climbing towards 20 on all weapons
dense locust
Should be good
You know one of the most innocent seeming but potentially heart wrenching heats? Underworld customs (if you don't have any fated persuasions)
naive laurel
And a afterparty too, should health become too low that might lose dd in start of room
Ugh, customs
I'd rather use 100% consequence
dense locust
Elysium and hades, and maybe a bad styx room are all you have to worry about
The thing with customs is it can be one of the easiest heats or nearly run ruining
I've had runs where every time I had to sell, I was actually happy I sold a boon because it was practically useless for me and gave me much needed gold (and I normally don't sell boons). Other times I beat the furies with 2 boons and having to sell one pretty much ends me
naive laurel
Ha that last sentence described this run
olive badge
tfw I am only on 11 heat because I am lazy
but I can definitely do with more
tight deadline is free 4 heat for me and I've not taken it
turbid needle
Tackle Heat at your own rate, I never messed with it until Super Star and Aspects came out.
6 Heat, TD comes in levels of 3.
olive badge
oh yeah so free 5 heat
turbid needle
I'm thinking Forced Overtime, which comes in 3 and 3.
naive laurel
And....Got Apho special to compliment
olive badge
FO is too hectic for me
naive laurel
I think It's a win There
turbid needle
Forced Overtime is hard.
olive badge
get Heart Rend too
yeah I'd rather take Benefit Package
and Benefit Package is borderline CBT already
the worst CBT run was when I took 3 chaos gates in a row
naive laurel
I think fo should be 3 and 5 heat, Not joking
turbid needle
I'm about to fire up Hades and check myself.
dense locust
Chiron bow time?
turbid needle
That's a hell of a 32 Heat run if I've ever tried it.
dense locust
I'll often start a 32 heat run with benefits package on and then rage quit on chamber 2
olive badge
What is CBT
@dense locust Not very family friendly time
dense locust
Yes but what does the acronym stand for? Were dying here
olive badge
not very family friendly time
dense locust
ahhhhh
olive badge
dense locust
that's extremely obscure for anyone to know lol
olive badge
I thought it was less obscure than that
turbid needle
We really do try to keep it PG here.
dense locust
haha yeah true, sorry for goading that out of you
Well, all of us live within our own spheres of knowledge
olive badge
it's a term to describe BDSM stuff AND extremely hard videogames
earnest ravine
I thought that's what you meant but, yeah, server tries to steer clear so I was unsure.
olive badge
like Mega Man Zero was compared to sticking your family line into a furnace
shadow oriole
how is ||cognitive behavioral therapy|| not PG?
dense locust
CENSOR THAT
olive badge
closed beta test
dense locust
lol
olive badge
dense locust
What's PG?
olive badge
a rating
naive laurel
Holy I shouldn't've searched that on urban dictionary
olive badge
Parental Guidance
shadow oriole
sorry censored
turbid needle
Okay, we should move this to #off-topic-discussion if we're not going to get back.
dense locust
sorry you're right
olive badge
yeah let's not go there
I mean
not go too far
back to how do I kill Hydra with the bow
dense locust
So doom attack, athena special, athena dash, 20 heat, the furies hit me once for 6 damage
earnest ravine
Also, 40% Overtime miiight be better to have a heat increase on, but base seems fine? It doesn't feel too different from standard.
Dash. A Lot
olive badge
I want Artemis Special on Chiron right
dense locust
which I find the easiest
earnest ravine
Better answer: Get used to identifying which ones are the biggest threat and shoot for them first. Don't get hung up on power shots.
And it's one of the few areas where not-Chiron special can reliably hit a lot of stuff and hit multiple times.
dense locust
@olive badge I don't like it, the damage isn't that great even with ideal boons and ahmmer
earnest ravine
so like, worthwhile to use if you have a boon for it.
turbid needle
If you're not running Zag Aspect Coronacht, don't worry about Power Shots.
shadow oriole
if you can get the ares/athena duo boon that seems good on chiron but I much prefer hades or zeus on special there
dense locust
I'm so used to calling Coronacht "the bow" that it throws me off when I see it
My favorite chrion bow special is demeter, and then maybe athena or dio
sometimes artemis, but every time I am frustrated by its damage output
I think the base damage of the special's arrows is just too low for artemis
turbid needle
I've seen Chiron put out more than enough 100-damage crits to get away with it.
Taking Heartbreak Strike helps a lot as well for the Heart Rend spawn.
You absolutely need to get Relentless Volley in Tartarus, though, if you're trying to run high Heat.
dense locust
Hmm, but even then, that's a total of 700 damage, 1100 with the hammer, and it's not fast and leaves you open
turbid needle
Swift Flourish.
dense locust
and I'd imagine that's with almost everything going your way
that will destroy most runs for sure
turbid needle
I think I took Chiron to 15, then Hestia through 18 or 19, then Zag to 20.
naive laurel
If I can't win this....
https://imgur.com/bNI5uO2
turbid needle
Can't see as much of your build as I wish, @naive laurel, you got a different screencap?
dense locust
Is that the right screen shot?
You just got heart rend, I can see that much
artemis attack, aphro special, poseidon cast?
naive laurel
Right away, I....let's say I clixked too fast on heaet rend
turbid needle
...You fatfingered a different boon, didn't you?
turbid needle
Oh, good.
dense locust
haha i have done that before
turbid needle
I've done that before and I nuked the run from orbit.
naive laurel
dense locust
It'd be nice that if there is a legendary or a duo offered and you don't choose it, a little confirmation window comes up
Hmm do i want heart rend, or common artemis cast
naive laurel
lulul
earnest ravine
O H
dense locust
mmm 206% damage is a crit within itself
although with how they word the damage on crits being at least 200%, i have no idea how much the actual average damage of crits is
Now you need deadly reversal so your special crits
dense locust
could be, i only recognize a few boons by the thumbnail
but deadly reversal's 20% is far better than anything pressure points can do
naive laurel
Yeah, and I kinda half fat fingered the special Hammer, There was the option for spin Area upgrades but I think too much eggs in 1 basket is....u know
It's clean kill btw
Just gotthe pressure points from shop
dense locust
I agree, I don't think the bow excels at pouring everything into one damage source
earnest ravine
Ah, thanks. All of the green's hard to decipher.
dense locust
I wish the egg would guarantee at least 1 chaos room
earnest ravine
Yeah. As is, it feels like a really hard gamble to make if you get unlucky.
naive laurel
Asterius Died in 30s luk
dense locust
Even getting 1 room and having fated persuasions to get what you want, it almost always feels worth it. But when not a single chaos room appears, you just feel dumb
naive laurel
Imo it doesn't need to increase chaoes boon rarity
Just increase chaoes portal chance by 10%
dense locust
Well, I do appreciate getting a nearly guaranteed epic chaos boon if they do show up because of how much they scale with rarity
naive laurel
Actually Got the Apho legendary in the last boon, that's a pleasant surprise
naive laurel
U mean unhealthy fixation?
dense locust
i used an obscure metric to say doubles or triples power, but the thing locks down single targets
naive laurel
Ofc If we see It as 70 It's different but...
dense locust
Unless they changed how it interacts with bosses, you can nearly permastun them
yay took the egg, no chaos...
naive laurel
It feels like It only lasts .25 to .5s on bosses
Welp...usually that's 25% of my cases
Which is why the egg is still Only lvl2 on this save Iirc
dense locust
I think the best strat with the egg is if the well shop inbetween biomes offers a chaos, take the egg, or take it to start with and if it proves useless, you can always restart
naive laurel
Agreed on the well ixiom, Not sure how the restart works but I guess that's guaranteed Chaoes gate spawns
Based on pre-run knowledge
dense locust
God chain shot and doom attack is fantastic in elysium because you can just keep hiding behind things and bouncing shots off onto enemies
It is but if you change too many things it does affect the seed
naive laurel
Anyways, I might try the charm build on nemisis rapid slash sometime
dense locust
Okay, artemis offered me a heroic special boon to replace my athena special and I could not resist. Just got relentless volley, and with chain shot, doom attack, and impending doom, this run is getting easy
I can't do anything but athena attack on nemesis. I find myself too open otherwise
naive laurel
Pretty much
stiff flume
i just killed third boss(es) in like 10 seconds 😂 plop down skelly and hammer on them with excalibur, 200% from behind boon + crits
so satisfying
naive laurel
For me I can do demeter tho, but projectiles are gonna be a first lookout
dense locust
PSA: chain shot lets you essentially shoot through walls
turbid needle
Heartbreak Strike, Deadly Flourish, Divine/Hunter Dash.
Accept no Nemesis substitutes.
turbid needle
It's what I did for 32.
naive laurel
Actually, I'll go Posideon special for the pom value
dense locust
athena ended up being my saving grace. I gotta double check but I think I may still have ended up getting heart rend, and probably deadly reversal
naive laurel
Imagine lvl 10 Apho atk
dense locust
athena is also pretty decent in terms of damage
turbid needle
On Nemesis?
naive laurel
Yep
turbid needle
You don't want Tempest anything, that knocks stuff out of your range of attack.
turbid needle
No, wait, Flourish actually isn't a terrible idea, since you're Dash Attacking anyway.
dense locust
oh I was thinking special too
turbid needle
Heroic Aphro Attack is 120, so something's wrong.
naive laurel
U special somewhere else and Crit someone w/dash atk
turbid needle
Generally speaking if you've got a decent range of boons you wanna cap at level 3 or 4.
naive laurel
Welp, We can get the lvl to dash atk I guess
dense locust
calls and casts are hard to not level
dense locust
It's just hard to get early
and it also takes the place of a boon that could be something else
naive laurel
Yeah...If got in tartarus it's busted
dense locust
The busted one is Exclusive Access
turbid needle
they're hard to get because they require Poseidon core boons
naive laurel
That too lul, but lvls on everything is, u know
naive laurel
Just use poseidon cast
dense locust
that's a high priority for me most runs
turbid needle
I'd rather have Zeus or Dionysus, keep my build's DPS while stacking monster Call damage.
turbid needle
...46% at level 6? Artemis, pls.
dense locust
i just appreciate the panic button, and its damage can wreck. I just wish it didn't still just shoot you off in whatever direction you were facing if you're moving when you use it
I know I don't even bother to level artemis attack
naive laurel
Common rarity, give Her a break
dense locust
It's not much better at epic
turbid needle
Hey, most boons more than double from levels 1 to 4.
stiff flume
4.3k crit on hades 😌
naive laurel
It's 1.3x tho, So 143% is actually 180% roughly
dense locust
The damage added by leveling artemis attack is pretty small compared to just keeping up boiling blood or privileged status
level 1 is like 15%ish?
turbid needle
20%, I think.
dense locust
it is 20
naive laurel
The base has to be small Since there's a Crit effective dmg multiplier
turbid needle
Yeah, I get all that.
dense locust
so 23% extra over 6 levels
i guess 5 additional levels
So billowing strength level 1 is equivalent to roughly 5 levels in the attack
naive laurel
Not much Since I've seen 2 lvl becomes 23% differece.
turbid needle
Billowing Strength also requires a Call charge, which isn't always available.
dense locust
Maybe a mechanic where if you get a boon up to level 5 it gains an additional boost or something could be cool
because there's little incentive most of the time due to the hard fall off
turbid needle
I think the fall-off is specifically to deincentivize Pom stacking.
You get a lot of return from two or three levels per levelable boon, and it falls off hard after that to encourage you to diversify your damage portfolio.
dense locust
sure, but it could open up new builds to specifically incentivize pom stacking. I'm a big advocate of diversifying the damage portfolio, but it has also led to the pom being pretty low on my list of priorities
And yeah, 1-3 additional levels feels ideal for most boons
olive badge
I feel like if other things scale as well
it would incentivize pom stacking
what I mean is when you pom stuff like hangover you get like 1-2 more damage
but when you pom stuff like artemis etc you get big boy damage
dense locust
I guess if you pom stacked things and then gained a bonus for doing it, it could get a little op considering that most boons are still just fine at level 1
except maybe casts
olive badge
static damage isn't great at all for pom stacking
except cast yeah
maybe it's just me but even static damage like doom on attack or etc isn't strong enough to justify no scaling whatsoever
especially when you don't have the doom stacking boon
or even Zeus
dense locust
It does get hard to conceptualize exactly how much leveling an additional percentage to base damage does for you when there are multiple boons affecting the base/crit damage
olive badge
take this into account for example
support fire has a 14 damage arrow
getting one more level give you 1 more damage per arrow
effectively, it's a 1/14 damage increase
dense locust
Yeah its bad
olive badge
but when you stack pom on percentage damage
take excalibur for example
200 damage right
you go from 20% to 25%
that already means 40 damage increase to 50 increase
a whole lotta different
dense locust
A far as flat damage, posiedon call, Doom, zeus attack, and jolted damage are boons that I will level (and cast of course)
But yeah percentage based damage is usually a bigger increase than I initially think
shoot, I guess also poseidon dash
the damage on that is pretty beastly
olive badge
actually scratch that
dense locust
but I also never take it
olive badge
15 to 14 is a 7% damage increase
but 250 to 240 is a 4.2% damage increase
lmao
but I guess the raw gain is higher
dense locust
but it also depends on other things like the weapon, aspect, other boons
like support fire going from 14 to 15 is just always bad
after 10 instances of damage, you've done 10 extra damage....
olive badge
Yeah basically when we consider things
240+15 vs 250+14
The latter is always bigger
Plus attack scaling scales with crit
dense locust
My level 2 heroic artemis chiron crits for 95 an arrow
dense locust
so heart rend would take that to 95 + 95*1.5 = 237.5 per arrow?
stiff flume
bout to do 10 heat with this thing and i hate it
dense locust
assuming heart rend still gives 150% additional damage to crits
If chiron is at least level 4, doom attack, chain shot, demeter special
stiff flume
the one where doom stacks? 🤔
dense locust
but honestly doom attack is great because you can just constantly fire out arrows with volleys inbetween
nah you dont need that
especially if you have doom attack (not doom special)
ares attack technically
stiff flume
oh
olive badge
Is it me or Ares call is the worst one