h1-builds-and-combat

[still pewter]

and I don't really see how fighting olympians would make any

[hard holly]

I doubt we will ever go to Olympus

[still pewter]

but again, we only know a fraction of the story

[rugged horizon]

anyone else getting commons way more often now(max mirrior stats)

[still pewter]

hmm idk. since nothing was mentioned on patch notes you're probably getting a bit unlucky

[rugged horizon]

lol because accidental programming interactions never happen lol

[drifting hemlock]

double lol but no not getting commons way more often lol

Confirmation bias

[still pewter]

I mean, ofcourse they happen. since we don't have the exact stats though and there's high variance in the system, I think it's the safe bet. still if you strongly feel you're on to something, be sure to report it in game with F10

[rugged horizon]

no i dont which is why i was asking if anyone else felt or noticed a chance since the patch

[drifting hemlock]

No

[indigo olive]

yaaaay, finally beat the hydra...

[still pewter]

nice! congrats

[indigo olive]

so many heads....

whyyyy so many heads lol

[still pewter]

you're gonna be chopping a whole lot of em from here on out :p

[drifting hemlock]

I mean its 50/50... Could have been a lotta tails!

I'll see myself out

[still pewter]

this is indeed that house of hades puns

[merry nymph]

I just stumbled upon Charon two times in a row. Like... Charon in one room and Charon in the next room

Oo

Didn't think it's possible until now

[still pewter]

shroedinger's charon

you know what I've been encountering a lot back to back?

double boon rooms

with the same 2 gods

[merry nymph]

Oh

[still pewter]

I think i've had it happen in 3 runs

[safe mesa]

jealous

i’ve been running into darkness rooms mostly

[still pewter]

the one time I used nyx's keepsake in ashphodel

I didn't get a single darkness room

[grand patrol]

(charon voice) YES OR YES 🎵

[merry nymph]

Imagine having some brightness in the game

Your screen just gets brighter, that's all

shrugs

_>

[grand patrol]

no, brighton is from pyre

[merry nymph]

Yeah but...

[still pewter]

<_<

[merry nymph]

Uhm, okay, I got nothing\

[grand patrol]

A CURRENCY THAT LETS YOU IMPORT HIM TO HADES...

[merry nymph]

Exchange darkness for Brighton

Hmmm

[grand patrol]

please

[merry nymph]

...and replaces Cerberus with Rukey

Three-headed Rukey

[still pewter]

wait brighton is what they call the voice?

didn't remember that

[merry nymph]

One with mustache, one without mustache and one... dunno

[south comet]

one with a mustache only on one side

[merry nymph]

Yeah

Sounds like a plan

All three heads satisfied

[still pewter]

3 headed rukey

[merry nymph]

Yeah, there's a drawing of this already

[still pewter]

blood and darkness no yes

[merry nymph]

Somewhere in the original content

Use the search, I guess

It looked nice

Also, is this just me or everytime Ares appears I hear "SHAUN!!!" screams?..

I mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAhG9D9UO7c

[still pewter]

I dunno about that one chief

[merry nymph]

Every single time.

Ares appears - SHAUN!
Ares gives you his boon - SHAUN!

Etc

[jovial zenith]

So from the patch notes I see there are unlockables for completing at certain pact threshold. Do we know what those thresholds are?

[still pewter]

15 60 120

[jovial zenith]

Okay. What unlocks? I just finished with 50 heat and I don't notice anything.

[still pewter]

check the bottom left of the skelly training area

[jovial zenith]

Okay. Will do. Thanks.

[still pewter]

[jovial zenith]

Found them. Not sure how I missed that. One glorious statue revealed. Thanks again.

[still pewter]

I missed them as well at first

[turbid needle]

I cannot honestly even think of any building feedback because I find this game awesome and it is first its kind I've played

[tired pivot]

Building feedback?

[severe sinew]

Well you don't have to give feedback, it is more like suggestions

[tired pivot]

Critical feedback and suggestions.

Usually people include suggestions to rectify problems outlined in their feedback.

[severe sinew]

Point taken
But you still don't have to give any

[still pewter]

it's interesting how suggestions might even be a bit unnecessary at times

players are good at identifying problems, not that good at solving them

[severe sinew]

I think its okay to give suggestions, even if they are controversial.
But just throwing in suggestions because, it suits oneself specifically, is not constructive

[pastel jolt]

Well you don't have to give feedback, it is more like suggestions that's the opposite

5. Focus on your experience. You don't need to propose solutions.

[severe sinew]

Yeah I can see it now

[still pewter]

suggestions are really fun to come up with

[worn fulcrum]

Classic Mark Rosewater advice

[severe sinew]

abit tired...

[still pewter]

idk how useful they are to the devs

oh don't worry rosing

having suggestions to make is a sign of passion

you're invested and want to contribute

[severe sinew]

Honestly if it helps the game, so people likes it more, that is enough for me

[analog crystal]

Feedback isn't really for suggestions though is it? It's like talking about the current game and what could be changed rather than an idea to add?

[still pewter]

that's the idea I think

[drifting hemlock]

Yes and no. Mainly because feedback is mostly on stuff you'd like to not be the way it is, and once you made up that thought you almost always drag a solution to the problem in with it, thus giving a suggestion along your feedback. It's natural.

Though not always a thing 😄

[severe sinew]

Is it too late to say that English isn't my first language and I mixed them up 😂

[drifting hemlock]

Its too late to apologize! Its to laaaaaate!

But yeah following up on my other thought and Icathios' from earlier then most suggestions followed by individual feedback is really unnessecary or just poor suggestions

or awkward or non-relevant

[analog crystal]

Having a suggestions channel would be quite nice just for people to spew their ideas and have it somewhere

[drifting hemlock]

But it would be a ton of work for the devs to go through that on top of the feedback channel wouldnt it?

[still pewter]

yeah, It'd be for us to self indulge mostly :p

[drifting hemlock]

I see a lot of suggestions in here that i absolutely dread to the point that I'd cry if it was added to the game lol

[analog crystal]

I mean, the devs have some common sense lmaoo

[still pewter]

yeah. sometimes I hope they do their magic instead of trying to potentially please people

[livid hawk]

Early Access is that most tricky of tightropes between said magic and giving nobody everything but everyone something.

[analog crystal]

Casts could change instead of being projectiles to magics I feel

[drifting hemlock]

Thats the thing from 2 patches, everyone claimed the game was too hard even though it wasnt, then everything got buffed to beyond good, I suggested a nerf to a lot of things and people hailed me down

Easy isn't fun, but a lot of people likes easy

Which is why when someone comes with an idea of "X is too hard" then theres more "I want it easier" players than "its fine/i needs to be harder" players

and thus such feedback can skyrocket

[analog crystal]

It's hard to balance because of the types of games SGG made prior to hades being so story driven and players who are into difficult games wanting more of a challenge

[drifting hemlock]

When i started Hades and saw it prior to purchase i thought/expects it to be a sort of DS/BB mixed with Binding of Isaac - which both heavily implies tough stuff

[analog crystal]

Yeah but with SGG games in particular not everyone is looking for that

[drifting hemlock]

And so far it hasn't been tbh.

[livid hawk]

Easy isn't fun (over the long term) but frustrating is not challenging. Frustrating is often what is left with a rogue like overtime. Considering how many loops any particular run would be, what is frustrating is going to be a moving target.

Frustrating is also !fun. So again. Moving target. Hence. Early Access.

[little tapir]

I've never been frustrated with the game tbh, it is real joy, and the harder it gets the more rewarding it is. that being said I just attempted a run with 60 heat and 400% enemy damage and everybody in Asphodel was one-shotting me xD

[livid hawk]

Whoo. Hot times. XD

[drifting hemlock]

Theres just a lot of people who doesn't want to learn from mistakes. They want the game easier when they make mistakes.

but of course, everyones a different gamer

[north hawk]

I've learned that... I really don't like the bow

[little tapir]

my favourite was watching a streamer try bastion and grief when she died on wave 5 or whatever in one of the dreams and then quit the game because it was "imbalanced"

[north hawk]

Also, how much damage does the shield block when you are charging?

Or does it only block projecticles

?

[drifting hemlock]

Everything from the front

[north hawk]

I tried that with Meg

[drifting hemlock]

but I've found that "the front" can be a little janky

[north hawk]

She was still doing damage with the dash

[drifting hemlock]

Hmm i could swear i had blocked dmg with it

[north hawk]

Well, she was doing LESS damage

[severe sinew]

Almost from the front
There is a sweet spot, where if you collide with an enemy attack, it will stil damage you

[north hawk]

So... an opposite sweet spot?

A bitter spot

[severe sinew]

Exactly
Enemy sweet spot

[still pewter]

meg is a big wonky

sometimes you won't block her

even if you think you should have

[north hawk]

Blargh

[severe sinew]

If you stand against the wall and Meg charges you, it sometimes blocks and other times not

[north hawk]

That's one of the reason I don't use the block function much

Too unreliable

[still pewter]

yeah kinda

needs a bit of polish

[little tapir]

for meg it is best do dash to the side when she charges then backstab her

works with all weapons

[plush blaze]

Got my first sub-10 time

9:25

[analog crystal]

Damnnn nice

[north hawk]

Good job

[little tapir]

wait wot

how does that even work

I thought I am cool with 15

😄

[north hawk]

I'll probably never do that, I'm a very defensive player

[little tapir]

Zeus boons?

[livid hawk]

Whoa. Congrats. ^^

[plush blaze]

Athena attack boon is usually the way to go

[little tapir]

weapon?

[north hawk]

That's a good one

[plush blaze]

I got a rare instead of an epic

[severe sinew]

Yeah but if you cant block a front attack with a SHIELD, then its not really a shield

[plush blaze]

Triple shot bow

[little tapir]

I usually go heavy zeus when I try to speed it

[analog crystal]

Any heat @plush blaze ?

[plush blaze]

No :p

speedrun

gotta go fast

[analog crystal]

Heat is actually a buff

[little tapir]

lolllllll

[still pewter]

what's the speedrun meta?

[little tapir]

you run fast

[still pewter]

or are you casually going fast?

[analog crystal]

When on +500% your deflects do more damage, or is that not viable in speedrun strats

[plush blaze]

Speedrun meta is Epic Athena attack boon and triple shot for bow or quick charge for spear

And an epic chaos boon if possible, I didn't get one

[little tapir]

good shout will try it!

what is her boon I forget

[plush blaze]

Also, cast builds are very viable. But athena attack boon is more reliable

[analog crystal]

+(best damage buff in the game I think) and you can deflect attacks

[little tapir]

zeus cast is op

oh cool

[analog crystal]

Ranged attacks if you hit they go back and do damage (including bombs)

[little tapir]

well then heat on + damage might make sense

[analog crystal]

And physical attacks as they strike if you attack you negate it and do damage back

deflect damage

[plush blaze]

I'll drop a link to the run video when it finished uploading

[little tapir]

ok, I am sold

cool, cheers!

[analog crystal]

Just be warned of the dash

I don't like it, you might

[plush blaze]

I also got an epic zeus dash in the run

[little tapir]

thanks for ruining my perception that I am good 😄

jk

[plush blaze]

I'm 4th place out of 4 people on the leaderboard lol

[little tapir]

wait there is a leaderboard?

[plush blaze]

I'm not even that good

speedrun . com / Hades

[drifting hemlock]

Anyone finding that some enemies with the right timing can prepare an attack one direction and then as you dash next to them or behind them their attack will then go that way

and hit you

[plush blaze]

15 minutes is good for a casual speedrun - run. It's what I was usually getting before doing serious runs

[still pewter]

woo

gz dude

nice

[plush blaze]

7 seconds behind teddy 👏

[still pewter]

oof

[plush blaze]

https://www.speedrun.com/Hades But yeah this is the leaderboard. Way more people running than there are submitting, but more people the better!

[analog crystal]

730 o lord

[little tapir]

the 7 min guy did it with zeus cast and 400% chop

[plush blaze]

Yeah WR got a nutty zeus cast run

• chaos boon

[little tapir]

+aphrodite dash

[drifting hemlock]

Thats what makes it a bit more janky to speedrun a game like this, so much rng

[little tapir]

@plush blaze did you also use skull earring or you went for the Athena trinket?

[plush blaze]

Athena trinket first half, skull earing second half

[little tapir]

cool

[drifting hemlock]

Am i going insane or does the brimstones have randomized range...

[analog crystal]

Yeah

What i've found is

Their range is a little bit longer than their distance from you

[drifting hemlock]

I just had one shooting through the entire area of the map, the beam went out of the map aswell...

But their range being unpredictable is annoying

[plush blaze]

https://youtu.be/pU4E56QEloA

No sound since I had a stream on in the background

360p atm but it'll be 720p60 in a minute

[little tapir]

neato thx

[still pewter]

feel free to post in #self-promotion as well

[plush blaze]

Eh probably not

If I made a speedrun guide or something then I would

13 minutes of gameplay with no commentary or sound isn't something I want to advertise to people

[drifting hemlock]

how come you only need keys for gold troves and not the rest

[analog crystal]

I think gold troves are meant to have better loot

[drifting hemlock]

They only have gold now tho dont they

[still pewter]

I think it's random which troves require keys

[little tapir]

no they have darkness and health too

[still pewter]

pretty sure I've seen hp troves require keys

[drifting hemlock]

Kielox the new troves aswell? I know the old ones did

[opal ravine]

RIP any chance of me using troves requiring keys

[little tapir]

well I got hp in my last run an hour ago

[drifting hemlock]

In a coin chest?

[graceful bough]

Dark Thirst hasn't shown up for the sword at all this patch.

[opal ravine]

its telling you something

strange, I still get it.

[graceful bough]

I'd heard that the sword is underbalanced for the patch.

[analog crystal]

I really like sword, idk

[graceful bough]

But I didn't realize they were subtly incentivizing people not to use it. 😛

[opal ravine]

I just complained about it in feedback so there we go

lol

[night pasture]

I had dark thirst on my sword on my last run, I'ma gonna guess it's just the will of chaos in the RNG

[drifting hemlock]

Feedback not so well taken there pascy 😄

[opal ravine]

I blame you Lizzy

you have it out for me lol

[graceful bough]

I thought it was algorithmic.

Whichever weapon you used longest ago.

To encourage players to use all the weapons.

[analog crystal]

It can't be as it changes after every run I think

[opal ravine]

I'm just kidding just some opinions about video games, nothin to worry about

[graceful bough]

That's not contradictory.

@analog crystal oh

[analog crystal]

If it's your longest ago weapon and you don't use the weapon and do a run your longest ago weapon will still be the same weapon

[graceful bough]

You don't always use it.

[analog crystal]

If that makes sense

[graceful bough]

Psh

casual

[analog crystal]

I do

But

Others dont

[opal ravine]

I wanna extract the secrets of the people who like the sword

[analog crystal]

m8 I'm on that grind for 100000 darkness

https://tenor.com/view/homer-brain-monkey-gif-11098413

[graceful bough]

@opal ravine The swords pretty fun, like the others.

[analog crystal]

@opal ravine there you go

[graceful bough]

But I don't think I've used it this patch.

Because Dark Thirst hasn't been on it.

[analog crystal]

I just love the sword special idk why

the thunk is so satisfying

[opal ravine]

Its basically the only weapon I used until yesterday

its awful

[graceful bough]

At the very least it should be algorithmic in the sense that if it hasn't been on a certain weapon in a while it'll show up there.

[analog crystal]

Yeah I agree

[opal ravine]

I audibly groaned when armoured enemies appeared

[graceful bough]

There should be a boon or a trinket (keepsake?) that allows damage carryover.

[analog crystal]

Tbh since the recent change where armour damage can't breach into hp I'm the same with every weapon

Like if your bow is doing 400 on crits, armoured skulls still heck you up with 18 damage a pop

[graceful bough]

When you destroy a shield, it carries over to the health bar.

I like that it doesn't, as a mechanic.

[night pasture]

hah, I didn't quite understand that note until I had trouble with a room full of skulls

[graceful bough]

But there should be a boon or keepsake that makes it so it does.

[opal ravine]

I either spec entirely in the special which I find really boring to play. Or I get roasted by armoured dudes

[night pasture]

"I'm doing 150 damage! how are they not instagibbing??"

[graceful bough]

@opal ravine Well they've balanced the weapons a lot, so it should be assumed they'll keep tweaking them until they're all good.

[analog crystal]

nonono my friend, you aren't doing 150 damage, you're doing 50, and then 30 in separate instances

[graceful bough]

Originally everything felt underpowered compared to the shield.

And the bow...

man, the original bow.

[drifting hemlock]

if you get roasted by armored dude you arent dodging their attacks

[graceful bough]

Was so bad.

I'd take the current sword over that bow any day.

[drifting hemlock]

the game shouldnt condone mindless gameplay

[graceful bough]

It was soooooooo slow.

[analog crystal]

The original sword pre combo buff was terrible

[pastel jolt]

original bow had no pierce and those were dark, dark days

[analog crystal]

It was my 1st win tho so it holds a special place in my heart

[drifting hemlock]

not condone... Another word i dont remember what is

[analog crystal]

allow?

[opal ravine]

I just dont think the sword is suited for even dodging the attacks

[graceful bough]

support

To say you don't condone something is to say you don't support it.

[opal ravine]

slap them once and get out of there is all you can do

[analog crystal]

I think the sword should have an inbuilt +100% damage after dash attack on the 1st strike

[graceful bough]

Ooh I was confused. nvm what I said

[analog crystal]

The dash attack is it's own mechanic but it's kinda bad as it sets your combo back

[opal ravine]

the entire 3 hit combo thing is rendered useless by armoured dudes

[analog crystal]

And wordsplitter doesnt affect it

[opal ravine]

and thats the bread and butter of the sword

[analog crystal]

Apart from floor thunk 😉

[opal ravine]

bayonetta dodge offset please

[analog crystal]

Bayonetta took me so long to get good at

[graceful bough]

Bayonetta is a terrible game.

[analog crystal]

yikes strong opinion

how come

[graceful bough]

Soundtrack 10/10
Story 1/10

It is the holy grail of examples of how not to tell a story.

[analog crystal]

I never payed attention to the story tbh, the gameplay was fun

[opal ravine]

yeah the last thing I would expect from a Kamiya directed action game starring a character like bayonetta is storytelling

[graceful bough]

b u t i t t r i e d t o a c t u a l l y h a v e a s t o r y

a n d i t w a s s o o o o o o o o b a d

#off-topic-discussion

[severe sinew]

I thought about how the move set for the sword could possibly be altered so it's not as limited as the other weapons.
Maybe some kind of charged swipe/spin? Could be a 60 degree front or 360 degree spin.
That way you could deal more damage to armored foes and still be able to dodge incoming attacks

[opal ravine]

just something that allows you to get in and get out would be fine

shield has it

[drifting hemlock]

Time to do hydra on 120 heat

and if i lose i blame Kaflajable

Forever!

[graceful bough]

I actually just lost my streak for the first team since recording streaks was implemented.

No heat; just a bad run.

[analog crystal]

Lizzy how

Could you do this to me

[drifting hemlock]

Woah woah wait, thats my line if i lose!

[analog crystal]

What did I do to deserve this

[drifting hemlock]

I'll start out by buying a 50 dollar 0 health kebab to assert dominance!

[graceful bough]

I mean it was Kaflajable's fault I lost my last run, for sure.

[pastel jolt]

has anyone else had it happen where you'll have a choice between a god boon or a shop, and you go to the shop, and then the exact same god boon is for sale in the shop

[turbid needle]

Am I the only that feels like multiple skull crushers vs bow gets a little bit tedious. With the charge and what not

[analog crystal]

Might as well call myself Atlas the way you're putting everything on my back

[pastel jolt]

bc i had that happen in three consecutive runs today (all w different gods)

[turbid needle]

I can remember that happening in previous patches

[opal ravine]

yeah its happened to me

[analog crystal]

And @pastel jolt I've had that!

[pastel jolt]

like, wow, they're really insistent huh

athena: you will accept my boon and you will like it

[analog crystal]

I think it's coded into the game that the next boon will be a certain boon idk

The most annoying thing is not being able to afford a hammer in a shop

[graceful bough]

So, I have a question.

[turbid needle]

How much do these cost now ?

[opal ravine]

I like having the exact same boon choice scenario happen twice in a row

[graceful bough]

One time I got a god-rivalry room.

[drifting hemlock]

Bad RNG

[graceful bough]

And BOTH boons gave me legendaries.

[drifting hemlock]

only green hydra heads

thats bs

[analog crystal]

6 green hydra heads or narr?

[pastel jolt]

i have had that happen exactly one time arkatox

[analog crystal]

I've never got that but it sounds like it sucks

[drifting hemlock]

first 2 greens then 4 greens

[pastel jolt]

@turbid needle 200

[drifting hemlock]

couldnt handle all the skeles

[graceful bough]

Legendaries only show up like 1/50 times.

[pastel jolt]

pom 100, boon 150, hammer 200, darkness 50, health 50

[graceful bough]

Probably less than that.

[analog crystal]

Legendaries are like a 1/6 chance if you meet the prerequisites

[pastel jolt]

legendaries show up if you have their prerequisites and you get lucky

[turbid needle]

Ty

[drifting hemlock]

unless they changed it legendaries are about 35% chance

[pastel jolt]

they will never, ever show up if you do not have the specific boons that allow them to appear

[graceful bough]

I suppose you need to look up the prerequisites.

[drifting hemlock]

you'll learn them fast

[graceful bough]

I mean I haven't.

[analog crystal]

The earliest you can get it is on your 3rd boon from the same god

So you gotta factor the chance of that happening

[pastel jolt]

unhealthy fixation requires empty inside or sweet surrender, either of those two requires at least one of her basic attack/special/cast/dash boons

[analog crystal]

I wonder if anyones got a legendary in tartarus

[pastel jolt]

idk why aphrodite's is the first one i think of lmao

[still pewter]

I wonder why hmmmmmmm

[graceful bough]

56 runs; only gotten maybe 6 legendaries ever.

[analog crystal]

@pastel jolt is too kinky to b a mod smh

[pastel jolt]

......... kafla, what

[still pewter]

dude, 52 runs I've gotten like 1. I'm not hunting them down tho

[grand patrol]

what?

[analog crystal]

Aphro is the 1st thing on ur mind

[grand patrol]

I mean, shes a character, in the game, so,

[drifting hemlock]

Well arkatrox first you need to meet prerequisites and then you have to find the same god again and win a dice roll, and seeing as you dont know the prerequisites theres a good chance you didnt pick the right ones on the first picks when it was possible

[pastel jolt]

she's the first alphabetically and i spent like two hours trying to wiggle a table around using her boon tree as a template

[drifting hemlock]

but you're basically sitting on a 10+% of your runs having a legendary boon

[analog crystal]

Speaking of, a boon tree in the codex would actually be so cool

[graceful bough]

I feel like I said something like that.

At this point in the conversation.

Or thought it.

[pastel jolt]

i'm just imagining zagreus pencilling in notes on boons in the codex

[analog crystal]

So with the codex is Zag just adding to Achilles notes?

[graceful bough]

I'm a little irked by the idea of needing to look up external strategies in order to understand how to get legendary boons to appear.

Or figure it out yourself which would be, like, super difficult.

I'm not good at that kind of stuff at all.

[analog crystal]

I kinda worked it out just through trial and error

I got that there were tiers but not what was which tier

[graceful bough]

I'm getting a headache just thinking about trying to figure it out that way.

[still pewter]

it's quite easy in hades though

[analog crystal]

@graceful bough go have a lie down, come back, beat hydra 150 heat, ?????, profit

[still pewter]

but I guess it really gets easy once you kidna know what the legendary boons do

[analog crystal]

I think the general feeling with legendaries is unsatisfied with how unimpactful they are

[severe sinew]

Hydra 150 Heat is easy, I'm just... deciding not to do it...

[drifting hemlock]

I just don't like that you have prerequisites and after that a huge chance to get them

takes the legendary tag off of it

[graceful bough]

"quite easy" doesn't negate "not good at that kind of stuff at all"

[drifting hemlock]

But individual "Im not good at X so it should be Y" isn't good either

[graceful bough]

@analog crystal pssh I beat the hydra with 400 heat np

[analog crystal]

Teach me

Wait

HOW ARE YOU GONNA BLAME YOUR LOSS ON ME WHEN YOU CAN RUN MORE HEAT THAN ME HUH

smh, people these days

[still pewter]

I think legenderies will feel better once we have more than 27 rooms to go through

[graceful bough]

or even

28

[analog crystal]

:0

Are legendaries spoiler territory?

[graceful bough]

I don't see how.

[pastel jolt]

nah, and even if they were, gameplay is not spoiler free

[drifting hemlock]

spoilers are fine in here

[analog crystal]

Cool

[graceful bough]

I've seen people talk about the hydra in #h1-discussion, like, a lot.

So if the bleeping hydra is allowed, there's no way legendaries aren't.

[drifting hemlock]

sometimes i feel like theres no difference between these chat rooms...

[plush blaze]

Legendaries are cool. Couple of them are super underpowered

[analog crystal]

I think with legendaries
Artemis's is averagely strong with certain weapons, but otherwise weak
Athena's is entirely utility
Poseidons doesnt work on bosses
Zeus's is busted
and Aphrodite is almost useless

[plush blaze]

Ares's also doesn't work on bosses

[analog crystal]

Oops forgot about him

[pastel jolt]

i think ares' boons suffer from the fact that is is laughably easy to lock yourself out of basically anything useful from him

[still pewter]

what do you mean by that?

[pastel jolt]

i mean in terms of getting to his higher tier stuff

for his base set of boons you have the two curses on attack and special, which don't upgrade into anything

and then slicing shot and blade dash

[still pewter]

yeah, I see what you mean

It'd be cool if his curse got some love

[pastel jolt]

neither of which seem very impressive at first glance

[still pewter]

and not only the blades

[analog crystal]

It'd be cool if it was like, Ares curse gets reapplied after the 1st one goes off

In line with poseidon

[pastel jolt]

bc true, the rifts do the stated damage repeatedly for as long as enemies are in the rift, but you have to take them and use them to know that

[analog crystal]

The ares boon that increases the size of your rifts is fun

[pastel jolt]

yeah it annoys me that curse of agony, especially, becomes basically useless if you're using non-worldsplitter sword or spear

because in ideal situations you're attacking very quickly and that means the curse never fires

[hard holly]

Ares has the problem of being a boon that doesnt scale

[still pewter]

I think bow can do well with ares and shield special

[hard holly]

It doesnt scale with attack speed like Zeus does, nor with hammer upgrades, or other boons that do damage increase, or backstab

[pastel jolt]

oh, you mean w/ the flat damage number?

ah

[tulip timber]

With shield special working better now, I think my new weapon ranking is Bow > Spear > Shield > Sword.

[pastel jolt]

yeah i was gonna point out zeus's boons but yeah that makes sense

[hard holly]

It also just has the lowest damage numbers

Zeus works well with flurry blade and apparently regular spear

[pastel jolt]

zeus attack boon on spear is delicious because even at common rarity that's still 30 damage on top of the 15 you're already doing base

[hard holly]

Havent played much non-spin non-special spear

[pastel jolt]

yeah, basic spear plays quite similarly to flurry blade tbh

[hard holly]

I mean shield was probably over sword for a while

The special has nothing to do with it though (swords special is way better than shields)

[pastel jolt]

i got my zeus keepsake to level 3 purely from running it with spear bc i'm love zeus attack on spear

[hard holly]

Ill have to try that out sometime

[pastel jolt]

i have a newfound love for the sword and idk when it happened

[hard holly]

I think thats the one playstyle Ive yet to do

[pastel jolt]

do it, there's so much lightning

[hard holly]

Might crash my pc tho

Thats not good

[pastel jolt]

it eats through numbskulls wonderfully and as a bonus it also chews through the hydra because the heads often end up close together

[tulip timber]

Shield special really works a lot better now. I had a clear with poseidon on shield special and aphro cast.

[still pewter]

zeus on basic spear attack is so fun

[tulip timber]

So I had good close burst damage and a good "keep away" ability.

[still pewter]

poseidon shield special sounds weird

how was it

[pastel jolt]

i tried poseidon on shield special and it felt really, really weird to use

[tulip timber]

Good damage boost. Keeps things away.

And now comes back in a reasonable amount of time.

[little tapir]

wait you can do sth to boost legendary %????

I have had 100+ runs and only one legendary

[hard holly]

I mean

With Poseidons special upgrade

Your shield special does 30 damage

Or so

Thats bad

[pastel jolt]

legendary boons aren't random chance, you need their prerequisites

[little tapir]

oh

[pastel jolt]

i could do a thousand runs and if i never got the prerequisites then i'd never see a legendary a single time

[tulip timber]

30 damage without wallslams. And it hit dudes into the lava real good.

[pastel jolt]

the game just doesn't explain that

[hard holly]

I guess Lava is good, yeah

[little tapir]

well, how do you learn about the prerequisites then

[hard holly]

But Id rather just do that with shields innate knockback

[little tapir]

I tend to read most of the things but haven't come across

[tulip timber]

Means I didn't have to get next to them. I'm still not great at avoiding damage in melee.

Particularly from shielded guys.

I'd rather lame it out from range.

Oh! I was initially underwhelmed by Athena Leg (which I just got this morning for the first time), but between it and Athena damage reaction deflect I avoided a LOT of damage.

[still pewter]

yknow I've never gotten athena trap reduction

idk, seems really uninteresting and not all that good

I mean, how long do you gotta swim in the lava for it to be good

[tulip timber]

That's my impression. Current traps don't warrant it.

[severe sinew]

There was talk about the damage reduction wasn't much, so it was not a good choice

[tulip timber]

My only complaint about the Athena legendary bubble is one non-damage tick of lava knocks it off.

LIke you know how you can be briefly in the lava and you don't take damage from the first tick or so? That pops the bubble.

I think that may also trigger the fail state in the "clear room without getting hit or you get an onion" challenges.

But I'm not sure.

[severe sinew]

Some has reported it does

[pastel jolt]

i think one of the patches fixed that

[tulip timber]

Well that's nice at least.

[severe sinew]

did the patch fix it?

[tulip timber]

I hate the gorgon heads but I think they're fair. Which I guess means they're a good roguelike enemy. 😃

I REALLY hate the skullsmashers.

[pastel jolt]

Fixed an issue unexpectedly failing 'Perfect Clear' encounters near lava

someone told me that refers to failing encounters by dashing through lava and not taking damage but it registers as a hit, and whatnot

[tulip timber]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I think that same thing pops Athena bubble.

Not sure if intended.

Gorgon head projectiles seem to move slightly faster and last slightly longer than I want them to, but I think I just need to get used to them.

[analog crystal]

Gorgons are nasty with stompers

But they're a necessary evil haha

[tulip timber]

Stompers are a pain. I think they need a lighter trigger on falling. As it is I feel like I have to stand still for too long and then have to twitch-dash out to avoid damage.

[analog crystal]

Mmm, I'm bad at keeping track of them but that's a me problem

[tulip timber]

I'm usually just lapping the room killing everything else before I deal with them.

But even when it's just them I sometimes get hit. I don't quite have the timing on their dropping down.

[still pewter]

what if they fell after they were airborn for a while

[tulip timber]

@still pewter that would be better than current "never fall until you stand still."

[still pewter]

it's good that you can manipulate them atm, but sometimes it gets a bit overbeaaring

[tulip timber]

Especially when there is more than one.

When you get a room of like 3 or 4 it's a nightmare.

And not fun.

[still pewter]

like, I'd like a secondary avenue in which they are vulnerable

[tulip timber]

I think that's worth a feedback. I will upvote.

[analog crystal]

Yeah 4 armoured ones ended my heat run

[still pewter]

ok, I'll write something

what's their name again?

[analog crystal]

Skullcrushers?

[tulip timber]

D_W has a post.

[still pewter]

yes

oh they do?

[tulip timber]

It addresses most of our complaints.

And has a good idea of letting you bait them into crushing other enemies.

[analog crystal]

If you ctrl f skullcrushers it's there

[still pewter]

alright no need to echo the feedback then

I'll upvote that post instead

[tulip timber]

They are the only enemy where I'm like "Oh geeze. Great."

[drifting hemlock]

Had a 50dmg zeus special on the shield kiting 5 of them, wasnt too bad ever since the AoE change

[analog crystal]

And they really inhibit speedruns probably

[tulip timber]

That seems very likely.

[drifting hemlock]

Well you shouldnt balance a game around speedrunners

[tulip timber]

I agree with that.

Honestly a game this random isn't really speedrun friendly.

[drifting hemlock]

In that sense the game in its entirety limits speedrunners since theres infinite difference in getting a godlike run and a shabby run

[tulip timber]

You may as well just sit around a table with all the speedrunners and roll dice at each other.

[still pewter]

people do speedrun roguelikes so it's not a new concept or anything

[drifting hemlock]

but, kite the room, kill all small enemies and then take out one skullcrusher at a time

they can be stunlocked

[tulip timber]

I know, but I don't see it getting the same following as something like Goldeneye.

[drifting hemlock]

and 1 cant drop on another

[analog crystal]

I didn't think about not dropping on eachother

If u get real close do they get stuck up there

[pastel jolt]

kinda

[drifting hemlock]

if you wail on a crusher on the floor then they wont drop

the shadows just bounce around

[tulip timber]

I also think Skullcrusher damage ring maybe persists too long?

Like, you can still get hit after they land if you dash back in too soon.

[drifting hemlock]

I killed one before it landed in my 120 run

[analog crystal]

You can entirely avoid damage from them if you time your dash right

[drifting hemlock]

it was right on me

no dmg taken

[analog crystal]

Single dash in the radius

[drifting hemlock]

im buying a lottery ticket by the way

[tulip timber]

I know, I just haven't gotten the timing yet.

[drifting hemlock]

just double dash

and double dash back

they are down long enough for that

[tulip timber]

Do you dash out right when they start falling, or wait a tick?

[drifting hemlock]

right away

once the shadow goes white

[tulip timber]

See, I've done that and still gotten hit by the ring on the dash back in.

[drifting hemlock]

Patience young padawan!

😄

[tulip timber]

It feels counter intuitive.

Do you dash back in OVER the ring?

So dash out, they land, dash back in?

[drifting hemlock]

no ring when i dash back

[tulip timber]

Also sometimes presents a problem when you've got like 4 tracking you. 😦

And the second one hits you while the first is falling.

I HATE THEM SO MUCH.

[pastel jolt]

personally, i dodge the shockwave by baiting them into landing, starting to run out, and then dashing

it's hard to nail the timing but you don't typically need two dashes to get out from under them

[tulip timber]

But I'm willing to accept for now that it's just me learning a new monster and haven't figured them out yet.

[pastel jolt]

it's one of those things you just kinda have to get a feel for

[tulip timber]

I still kind of think that once I get the feel for them it'll still be tedious.

Which is not a good descriptor for a video game experience.

The feedback chat on Friday was fun!

Q&A I mean.

[analog crystal]

Idk, I was thinking that but refining my mechanical play is something I really enjoy

I'm hoping I'll build up to a damageless run

[tulip timber]

I actually think the Chaos negative effects are great for mechanical play improvements.

It very much changes how I play for the duration (some of them), and makes me notice bad habits and work to fix them.

I expect Heat to have a similar effect once I start taking fetters.

Not to the point yet where I feel comfortable doing that.

[analog crystal]

The only chaos downside I really dislike is the take damage when you x

[pastel jolt]

i'd like to get more consistent in defeating the hydra before i start dabbling in heat, tbh

[tulip timber]

Same.

On both.

[pastel jolt]

my least favourite chaos curse is hidden room rewards

anything else, you can work around

[analog crystal]

I can't deal with take damage on dash

That ruins me

[tulip timber]

But then again, the no dashes chaos downside gave me a lot of insight into projectile disruption and really made me watch other enemy attack and movement patterns.

[analog crystal]

Even with 1 dash I rely on it too much

I had take damage on attack with bow and I was forced to do murder boat on heat, that was a tough one

[tulip timber]

Ooof, I've seen hidden room rewards, haven't taken it yet.

[drifting hemlock]

My main problem with skullcrushers is their visibility, Your eyes are tracking projectiles and the attack animation of melee attackers, adding a vague shadow on the floor, a thing you aren't tracking, is haaaaaard

[pastel jolt]

i took it once and regretted it so, so much

[tulip timber]

No attack on boat with bow sounds awful.

[still pewter]

I for some reason didn't realize the chaos reward that give you health, actually raises your max hp

[tulip timber]

I had no dash on bow, which also makes it very hard to attack.

[analog crystal]

Wait

[still pewter]

i thought it just healed you

[analog crystal]

It raises max

[drifting hemlock]

@still pewter theres one that heals and one that raises max hp

[still pewter]

aaaah

[analog crystal]

Restore vs gain right?

[still pewter]

I see

that makes sense

[analog crystal]

OOOO I thought chaos was the chests for a sec

[drifting hemlock]

one says "80 hearts" the other says "+80 hearts"

[analog crystal]

My b

Yeah

[pastel jolt]

remedy = heal
soul = max

[analog crystal]

Gain is max hp and restore is healing

[tulip timber]

I think maybe those could be more clear.

Or maybe I need to read better.

For keywords like that, some bolding or highlighting maybe?

[analog crystal]

They could make it so that when you hover over it and the describing boxes pop up it could explain gain vs restore

[pastel jolt]

right now Soul says Afterward, +X Health. and Remedy says Afterward, restore X Health.

[still pewter]

I mean, it makes sense. I didn't give it enough attention

[analog crystal]

https://gyazo.com/e7a200d8a4f86aecdbcc6c3b49d53633

[tulip timber]

Another thing I noticed and appreciated for the first time this morning: the fonts in this game (and all Supergiant games) are gorgeous and interesting.

[analog crystal]

I have the perf ss for it

[tulip timber]

And that's not something they really have to do.

But they do it and I appreciate it.

[analog crystal]

Gain vs restore

[pastel jolt]

.....huh. then i must have copied the text out of the files wrong.

interesting. i need to update the tables anyway to accomodate the new blessings

[tulip timber]

Oh, are you a wiki contributor?

[analog crystal]

That was from 0.12868 so they might've changed it since

[pastel jolt]

and maybe also make the first forays into adding actual numbers and not just placeholder Xs

yeah, dan, i do some wiki stuff

[tulip timber]

Thank you for your service.

[analog crystal]

I've not got the new blessings yet what do they do?

[pastel jolt]

i mostly maintain the mirror page and i've adopted the chaos page as my baby too

[analog crystal]

there were 2 added right?

[pastel jolt]

Lunge = better dash attacks, Flourish = better special

[analog crystal]

Oooh I've got lunge acc

[tulip timber]

Are dash attacks JUST the melee? Cause bow doesn't really have a specific dash attack.

Everything else has, like, a thrush.

[still pewter]

bow has dash attack no?

[analog crystal]

Artemis's dash works with it too

[pastel jolt]

bow's dash attack is basically just attacking within a certain time period of dashing, so far as i know

[analog crystal]

Oh really, I thought it changed the boon figures, maybe not

[still pewter]

yeah, and you charge faster

[pastel jolt]

mhm

okay, i think i can pull common stats for chaos boons, but i have no idea how to make heads or tails of how multipliers factor in

[tulip timber]

Okay, I didn't notice a big uptick in damage.

But I'm bad at tracking those things.

[pastel jolt]

if it's hunter's dash you're talking about it may or may not be broken atm

not, like, fun-broken either

[analog crystal]

It is with the rarity being reset down to 100%

Unless they've patched in the past few hours

[tulip timber]

Okay, good, I thought there might be something wrong with Hunter Dash.

[pastel jolt]

yeah i jsut wasn't sure if it was a visual change or if it actually downgraded

[tulip timber]

That REALLY didn't seem to do anything.

[analog crystal]

It actually downgrades

I had epic one

And it changed it to normal on the left boon list

From 200% to 100% feelsheckedman

[pastel jolt]

yeah, had the same happen to me

sucks bc it was at like 236% or something daft like that

[analog crystal]

Yeah it was better than before the nerf hahaha

[tulip timber]

Also, I think the new hunter dash isn't actually a crit technically, but it still gives you access to the additional crit damage secondary boons.

Which may be a carryover that wasn't changed.

[analog crystal]

It isn't a crit

[pastel jolt]

yeah, i've left a feedback about that

[tulip timber]

Cool.

[pastel jolt]

it isn't a crit effect but they left in letting it be a prereq for crit boons

[analog crystal]

which means with crit and the +100% damage you do 6x basically

If my math is correct

[tulip timber]

That's the sort of thing where I think they'll just fix it regardless of how many thumbs it gets. 😃

[pastel jolt]

it could end up being a thunder flourish situation

thunder flourish is one of the prereqs for storm lightning but apparently doesn't benefit from it

[hard holly]

thunder flourish is odd

[analog crystal]

Is that the special zeus boon that doesnt gain from the legend

[hard holly]

Its probably the most useless boon if I get it correctly

[pastel jolt]

next step down from legendary but yeah

[tulip timber]

Thunder Flourish is... the more bounces?

[hard holly]

I think it only spawns one lightning

[analog crystal]

Oyeah the one that gives chains right

[hard holly]

No matter how many enemies you hit

Nah, the special upgrade of Zeus

[pastel jolt]

thunder flourish = lightning botl strikes nearby enemies on special
storm lightning = more bounces

[tulip timber]

Aaaah.

I don't think I've ever taken that.

[analog crystal]

Idk what special would be good with it tbf

[autumn tapir]

I just had three chaos curses on me at the same time
it was pain

[analog crystal]

Shield maybe

[tulip timber]

Shield might be alright.

[pastel jolt]

i've had it on shield and it wasn't bad

[analog crystal]

Bone hourglass light of ixion is such a fun synergy

[tulip timber]

Can it only trigger once per special?

Or if bow special hits multiple can it get multi bolts?

[still pewter]

hourglass +ixion's is where it's at

[tulip timber]

Bow special is my love for Hydra purple needles.

[pastel jolt]

what puzzles me is that, like. okay. basically you have zeus's attack and cast, which are chain lightning effects, and then you have his special and dash, which are lightning bolts. attack and cast benefit from storm lightning and are prereqs for it. special and dash don't benefit from storm lightning, but special can be a prereq for it

[still pewter]

you essentially lose control of your life for like 7 floors but you come out super strong

[pastel jolt]

if that..... makes sense.

[tulip timber]

Bow special with athena just turns all the needles around and gives me like 10 seconds of free power shots.

[analog crystal]

Yeah it does @pastel jolt

It's like getting poseidons legend without having any knockback effects

[pastel jolt]

it just bothers me that you can unlock boons that are literally worthless to you

artemis! i don't want better crits when i can't actually deal critical damage!

[tulip timber]

Yeah. That is bad gating.

[analog crystal]

tough zag

[tulip timber]

I've used bow special more in the last 2-3 days than I did pre-patch in total (aside from breaking pots) because of the hydra needle destruction.

[hard holly]

Yep

Its neat

[analog crystal]

Is that in the code of the game

[pastel jolt]

yup!

[analog crystal]

Lmaooo

[tulip timber]

#wompwomp

[analog crystal]

I think the artemis dash should be how it was pre this last patch, and the % was a bit higher

With triple crits and like base 30% idk

[pastel jolt]

anyway, where was i

oh right, chaos stuff

[analog crystal]

I also think chaos stuff was nerfed a wee bit too much

[pastel jolt]

ping me if you need me 👋 i'm gonna...... try and focus, at least ._.

[tulip timber]

It's Sunday focusing is for weekdays.

[autumn tapir]

was chaos nerfed? I hadn't noticed

[tulip timber]

I didn't really get to play between launch and all the mini-patches.

[analog crystal]

One point I had a chaos buff that was like +100% on attack epic

[autumn tapir]

I've literally only used the Cosmic Egg since I got it from them and have been taking chaos boons obsessively

[analog crystal]

Cosmic egg was the first keepsake I 3*'d

Chaos boons are a lot of fun

[tulip timber]

I started with Artemis because of respect for prior use, and was glad to get it out of the way.

[analog crystal]

I really like where crits at atm

Of low chance triple damage

[tulip timber]

I agree. It's a good bonus, but no longer something you build a run around.

It REALLY made her "all damage has a chance to crit" boon a lot better.

On par with Ares attack/cast buff.

Though you still might build a run around it if you get the sword special gives you 3 seconds of guaranteed attack crits.

[pastel jolt]

now if only she'd ever give me it

(i lied discord is too tempting)

[tulip timber]

From hammer.

[analog crystal]

Nice focussing dummy hahaha

[hard holly]

Eh, I think crits are bad now

[tulip timber]

I think crits are in line, and they feel bad because they were broken.

[autumn tapir]

crits are too reliant on rng

[hard holly]

Mainly because there is only one crit upgrade, in the whole game, you ever want to take

And thats pressure point

And even then "want" is a bit strong of a word

[analog crystal]

I quite like attack crits

[worn fulcrum]

It used to be that Hunter Dash was the only good crit ability, and it was fairly broken

[analog crystal]

Fairly is an understatement

[worn fulcrum]

Now they're in a better place, I think (as the 'pure damage' boon for cast / attack / special)

[hard holly]

Eh

[tulip timber]

If they got a little numbers love, I think that would be fine, but for now I'm happy that other things feel strong again. And it's not just "get a big % attack boost, get crit dash, win."

[hard holly]

Back then you had hunter dash, pressure point, the spear hammer upgrade, possibly the sword hammer upgrade

And of course the crit-upgrading boons

Now since crit is so rare and largely insignificant

You just pick Pressure points if you pick any

[analog crystal]

Whats the % of epic ppoints do you know?

I think epic attack crit is like 35%

[worn fulcrum]

The sword hammer upgrade that gives crits after specials is much stronger now, and the dash crits on sword / spear crits are about as good

[hard holly]

Does it still guarantee crits?

And no, the other 2 are way worse

[tulip timber]

The sword special does yes.

For 3 seconds.

[hard holly]

Yeah, that one is decent then

[tulip timber]

It is pretty good.

[analog crystal]

I was thinking this while playing, do you think that hammer boons should always be better than a boon could be or the same level

[hard holly]

Actually, I dont remember

Whats the % chance of the new spear upgrade?

I know sword is 40% and as a result infinitely worse

[worn fulcrum]

Crits do more damage than they used to, so the 50% crit things that used to be 100% crit are only slightly worse

[hard holly]

Sure, they do 3x instead of 2x

But thats only a 50% damage up

So if it used to give 100% chance before

It would have to be 66% chance now to just be as good

[worn fulcrum]

You have to take into account that non-crits still do damage, though

50% of 1x, 50% of 3x is the same average of 100% of 2x

[analog crystal]

Arent they the same statistically? Like every 2 hits you should be dealing
1+1 per attack (so 4)
And
1 on 1 attack 3 on the other (so 4)

[hard holly]

Oh, right

So 50%

[analog crystal]

O u just typed that my bad

[hard holly]

I know sword is 40% and as a result is considerably worse

I dont actually know what spear is now

[worn fulcrum]

So sword dash crits are 90% as strong as they used to be

[hard holly]

*80%

[worn fulcrum]

I think spear is still 50%

They do an average of 180% damage instead of 200% damage

so your damage is 90% of what it was pre-patch (on average)

[hard holly]

If you mean like that, yeah

[analog crystal]

Was the hammee double hit crit dash on sword good pre3xcrits? I never picked it up

[hard holly]

But you only effectively have an 80% damage increase

It wasnt, really

[worn fulcrum]

10 percentage, but 20 percentage points

[hard holly]

New one is worse

But the old one already wasnt great

[worn fulcrum]

It was pretty good, I thought

[analog crystal]

Im just mad they really nerfed supernova

Top tier with flurry and worldsplitter imo

[dusky drum]

did anyone else have the problem when you get artemis dash and its epic that in the next room it becomes normal

[pastel jolt]

yup, think that's been happening to everyone who gets it

[dusky drum]

its just so annoying because im trying 60 heat with bow an need damage

[finite shadow]

uh oh. there is exactly a reason why for this and it is my fault.

[pastel jolt]

alice!! >:0

i'm kinda curious what on earth could be doing that tbh

[drifting hemlock]

I know what it is

[pastel jolt]

also hi i'm neck-deep in chaos stuff and i don't understand any of this :')

[drifting hemlock]

Its ENVY!

[finite shadow]

we were fixing a backward compatibility crash for in-progress runs with Artemis Dash pre-friday patch but I accidentally made it too trigger-happy about when to replace the dash

[pastel jolt]

ahhhh

[finite shadow]

so when it updates it it removes rarity bonuses... wah wah

[pastel jolt]

i'd have sent a bug report or something when i got hunter's dash earlier but it. completely slipped my mind. ._.

i was just like nyoom nyoom shoot shoot

[drifting hemlock]

wonder if we'll get skins and stuff

[tulip timber]

I think it likely we will get stuff.

At some point.

[pastel jolt]

question: does anybody have any screenshots lying around of chaos boons that have a move speed debuf attached?

[analog crystal]

I have one ss with 1 of each rarity i believe

[pastel jolt]

👌

[worldly sage]

Just got my first hydra clear

took me a while compared to everyone else tho

[lost rose]

congrats!!!

[ionic field]

Still can't get past Meg without kiting and spamming spear toss

[pastel jolt]

is there a specific attack you're having issues with?

[ionic field]

Not really, just get whittled down

[drifting hemlock]

wouldnt that mean theres issues with all the attacks

[toxic vector]

is it just me that feels that the bow is underwhelming if it doesnt get triple shot

[serene sand]

perfect is pretty good too. triple is great when you can shotgun people

[ionic field]

I feel like powershot is a necessity more than a bonus

[unreal owl]

is it me or are Artemis+Ares runs op as hell?

@worldly sage me too

[tender zephyr]

I chose the Chaos boon that increases the amount of enemies for 4 rooms then increases your attack by 30%; however, even after the 4 rooms were clear, I still feel like the enemy spawn rate is larger than normal. Is this just me or has this occurred to anyone else?

[drifting hemlock]

@pastel snow making casts drop on shield break makes casts severely OP

[reef cedar]

Does Holy Shield from Atena (you deflect after taking damage) stack or syngerize with the similar upgrade from the shield?

I'm assuring the Holy Shield is just straight up better.

[drifting hemlock]

synergize in what way/which boon do you mean

[forest marsh]

I don't know what the time periods are for both of the "briefly deflect" attributes, but Athena's Holy Shield also does damage to nearby enemies when activated, so it has that over Dark Barrier. I suspect that there is no stacking, but haven't tried it to say for sure

I don't think it's possible to deflect the same attack(s) twice, however

[harsh ridge]

Any tips for bow-and-arrow runs? It's a decent weapon, but I always think I'm lacking in some aspect (aside from missing the window for a power shot) whenever I use it.

[forest marsh]

Stay mobile (dash a lot) and try for backstabs whenever possible. Work on aligning enemies for multiple hits, and consider taking Hunter Dash (even if the rare and epic versions are bugged right now) to maximize your attack damage after a dash

Don't sleep on the casts as well

[harsh ridge]

Notes taken. Is there enough time after a dash to line up a Power Shot?

[forest marsh]

Yes, there is enough time

Dash reduces the charge time on the attack as well, another reason to dash constantly

[harsh ridge]

All righty, then. Thanks! Currently I just abuse damage bonuses to the volley and make all of its shots backstab a single enemy.

[forest marsh]

For Hammer upgrades, Triple Shot is generally best, but Point-Blank, Sniper, and Perfect Shot are all decent to. Avoid Steady Shot

[harsh ridge]

All right. I'll be sure to apply these on my next Coronacht run. Thank you!

[serene sand]

@harsh ridge Hunters Dash is really good for bow right now

on the other hand. I cant beat heat 15+ with sword to save my life. what do I have to do?

[tender zephyr]

Triple Shot feels weird now with how wide they made the spread. I know it was meant to stop people from firing all three shots into a single enemy, but it'll still take some getting used to.

[forest marsh]

I usually play Triple Shot pretty up-close-and-personal anyway, so even with the altered spread it hasn't affected my ability to land all three on a target. I can see how it might affect a mid-range attack more, though

[tulip timber]

I like the spread bow better. It gives it more utility in keeping large groups at bay.

Though I can still manage with perfect shot.

[ionic field]

I think it's always the adds that get me on Meg

[tulip timber]

Yeah, usually with bow I'm fast enough that they don't pile up too much.

Since you can basically always be damaging her.

But the spread does help keep them down.

A decent Zeus lightning is a really good utility cast for bow.

So is poseidon.

[ionic field]

Like I seem to do the first half of her health just fine, but then it just stays there after I try and stay on top of them

[tulip timber]

I'm just always kiting her around the outside of the room.

[forest marsh]

I mostly ignore the adds in the Meg fight unless they're directly in my way

[tulip timber]

The buff guys walk slow enough that they never get to me, and the witches are usually not too hard to dodge.

If she spawned the dashing guys it would be a problem.

Or the Crystals.

Both of those would be rough on a bow run I think.

[drifting hemlock]

with or without heat, a cast or special (shield) build can deal with meg and the mob at the same time

[tulip timber]

Yeah. I really hope next update has another true ranged weapon.

[drifting hemlock]

I hope it has a new floor

[lost rose]

I don't think any major level updates are going to come for a while

It took them a year and a half to get asphodel and tartarus into the shape they were in at launch

[drifting hemlock]

I dont either

i just hope

[lost rose]

And they're still polishing those

[tulip timber]

They said in the Q&A they were aiming for every month or month and a half. Not with like floors every time, but a solid bite of expanded content and fixes like we just got.

[lost rose]

Right

[ionic field]

When I ignore the adds, I invariably get blindspotted by some half-health witch hiding in the corner

[lost rose]

I know that I heard from Greg before though that the next level will probably take significant time to design, so I'm just saying not to get your hopes up too too much. ^^;

It'll come in time!

[tulip timber]

Yeah, that's why I think being hopeful for a weapon or some new gods is more reasonable.

[lost rose]

yes!

[drifting hemlock]

More use for resources or more unlockables

or more tiers to keepsakes

guess anything could be a thing

[tulip timber]

Even that I can take or leave, since it doesn't do much to effect the gameplay. I really like the boosted chests for key use.

Though it would be interesting if all chests started vanilla, but you could "bet" keys to juice the reward / difficulty.

[forest marsh]

I do feel like the HP trove is not really worthwhile, personally. If you're good enough to clear and and end with an appreciable net gain in HP, then you probably aren't taking a lot of damage to begin with. If you're desperate for the HP, you're probably having a bad run and the HP reward won't offset the damage you'll take or the cost of unlocking. Just my opinion ¯_(ツ)_/¯

But overall I like the changes to the Troves

[tulip timber]

Yeah, I agree with the box of sandwiches.

Same with the Chaos boons that heal you after they expire. 3-4 rooms is a long time, and honestly if you survive that long you probably find a fountain or a shop, or get your act together and heal between rooms.

[drifting hemlock]

yep and the risk reward for darkness chests with 25 often isnt worth it either since a quick run will net you 16-18, if you're experienced you most likely wont need it, if you're not and need darkness, theres a good chance you'd much rather save your hp and continue the run

[forest marsh]

If it was a +Max HP, it might be a different story, but that might be a weird balancing issue

[drifting hemlock]

They could add empty hearts

[forest marsh]

That applies for both the Chaos boon and the Trove

[drifting hemlock]

A chest could offer 30 max health without giving you the 30 healing

[tulip timber]

Some boons give max, some heal.

The wording isn't super obvious, I missed it the first couple times.

[drifting hemlock]

Honestly one symbol should be the heart with the 3 green healing crosses and the other should have the word "MAX" written in green

a difference in symbolism would help a lot i think

I guess i should write this in feedback...

[tulip timber]

Agreed. But that's part of early access.

The part we have currently FEELS pretty done. But it's not. 😃 The last patch really cleared up a lot of issues.

[forest marsh]

Yeah, I agree. They've done a great job with their stated goal of releasing polished content at regular intervals, rather than pushing constant but buggy content

[tulip timber]

It's impressive to me to get a working % of the game that's fun this early. Steam greenlight and early access showed me that is not an easy thing to do.

I messed around with some early backer builds that were functional, but not really fun. This I'm actually just playing now and enjoying.

Phoenix Point, for example, is a game I'm really excited to play. I've read the lore. Played each backer build once, and while I like the direction they're going, and I'm still excited, I'm not gonna just sit and play it over and over.

[drifting hemlock]

There isn't a place for suggestions is there? I'm not sure my "Empty hearts" idea would be of any value but it could. Or maybe temporary health.

[tulip timber]

Feedback.

Search the channel first to see if anyone said it.

[drifting hemlock]

But feedback and suggestions doesnt feel like its the same to me

is it?

[tulip timber]

Nah, they welcome both there.

The feedback is that max health vs healing is not clearly conveyed.

The suggestion is how to solve it, but making them aware of the issue is what the channel is for.

THey say in the pin you don't have to have a solution, but you're welcome to suggest one.

[drifting hemlock]

No this is another thing im talking about now as in "a new resource" kinda thing where instead of getting a trove saying it will heal you for X it could give you increased max health BUT without the attached healing. Like boosting your max stats without immidiate impact

The other thing i already wrote in feedback 😄

[lost rose]

I'd say generally it's better to state your problems rather than suggest solutions

It's the designers' job to come up with answers ^^

[tulip timber]

I think that's right, since you'd rather know if other people experience the problem, and that way they aren't voting on your solution too.

[lost rose]

If you have feelings or feedback about something though let them know! that's the most valuable thing they can get from us

Yeah, that's a good point too Dan

[tulip timber]

Like "I agree with the issue, not with the solution" could make a binary response to the feedback difficult, and it's not really a channel for discussion.

Well, it's not that at all.

That sort of thing works better on a forum.

[drifting hemlock]

I feel like the healing trove shouldnt count down. The highest ive seen so far is 30 healing, that alone isn't a lot for those who needs it. They should at least get the full 30 for trying.

[tulip timber]

I can kind of understand the role the healing troves are meant to fill. A roguelike is meant to be able risk/reward, and if you're low and think you can perfect a trove, maybe that's an interesting choice.

[wide stratus]

Ive gotten 45 healing once
And i feel that it doesnt count down that fast

[forest marsh]

My take on proposed solutions is that I don't really like to see feedback that is just proposals for changes. It should reflect the player's experience, and if they provide an example of a change that would address it, then fine, but it should also be clear that it's just a suggestion. I appreciate that it's the designer's job to come up with solutions, and at the same time proposing suggestions reflects the player's feeling of how something should behave

[tulip timber]

Also an excellent point.

And I agree that the comments which are just "you should have this do this" without really identifying the problem it solves doesn't fit the channel.

[lost rose]

that's fair! though I think generally if you say "i wish troves were more rewarding" that's already expressing how you wish they would behave.

and it also gives SGG more wiggle room within expectations

[tulip timber]

And even on the food ones you still have a chance at ambrosia or keys if that matters to you.

[lost rose]

But yes a suggestion without feedback doesn't belong in the feedback channel

[tulip timber]

Actually, not sure on keys.

That would be weird if you put in 2 keys and got some food and a key back.

[drifting hemlock]

I guess this isn't much of a point but just saying "More rewarding" can mean a million things from player to player, so specifying what you mean doesn't hurt

Or does it

This feedback thing is starting to hurt my head a little 😄

[tulip timber]

Troves should add credit to my Supergiant account.

I think it works better to frame it like:

Troves do not feel like they are sufficiently rewarding for the risk involved, particularly on Heat runs. One way I think this can be improved is ...

Firmly couch any proposal you have in what you view as the problem your proposal addresses, and leave it open for other approaches.

[drifting hemlock]

Look at my feedback in the channel, is that how you mean or does it seem like im trying to force something? Im actually a bit unsure now

[forest marsh]

I think your feedback is fine, Lizzy

[lost rose]

Same

[tulip timber]

Yup.

[drifting hemlock]

Oh okay, thanks 😄

[tulip timber]

And I think your suggestion is a good one. But maybe they just do Red Hearts Heal, Heart Containers (a la Legend of Zelda) increase. There are any number of ways they can solve the issue.

[drifting hemlock]

Guess i could have made it more "open for the devs" by just saying "I can't differentiate between restore health and max health. I would like to see a change in the symbols for each"

[tulip timber]

So that it is clear what reward you're getting.

I think if this were more formal maybe, but there was no problem with what you wrote in this context.

It's not like you're doing testing reports.

[drifting hemlock]

True haha

[tulip timber]

No one at SGG is going to be like Why did you make me read a second sentence.

[forest marsh]

Well... They do say to be concise, don't they?

Concise statements, my true weakness

[lost rose]

yeah, like dan said i do think the main issue is with community voting on things that have solutions, since it is hard to tell who supports only the feedback, and who supports the feedback AND that solution

[drifting hemlock]

Shakes Nervously

[tulip timber]

Yeah, but I think that means "don't copy paste your design document into the channel."

[lost rose]

don't worry about it lizzy ^^;

It's been fine before and I haven't like

[forest marsh]

I've definitely seen a few of those in there, Dan 😆

[drifting hemlock]

Shakes non-nervously

[lost rose]

heard any complaints from SGG or anything about the current way people are doing feedback

so I think it's fine

[tulip timber]

I've had bosses who would lose their minds over extra stuff that they didn't need.

But I work in a billable hours industry, so; context is key.

[drifting hemlock]

Guess i better hit the bed, It's morning and i forgot to sleep again -_- Luckily no work today!

[tulip timber]

Same for me. MLKJr day in the US.

[forest marsh]

Liiiizzyyyyy, you need to sleep on a regular schedule 😛

[drifting hemlock]

Have a nice morning/evening/Hades-weather wherever you are! 😄

[lost rose]

luckyyyy y'all with the holiday!!

[forest marsh]

Enjoy your day-sleep, Lizzy!