yeah
#h1-builds-and-combat
worthy jasper
Still, I think roguelikes benefit from having leaderboards in mind, but that's just me.
tight basin
i mean there's the speedrun leaderboard
plain river
speedrun.com and community managed spreadsheets for heat
tight basin
and the heat one that's community managed yeah
plain river
and challenge of the month if that spreadsheet still gets updated
worthy jasper
Not quite the kind of leaderboard I mean.
worthy jasper
It would, yes. For that aspect anyway.
tight basin
it would also be pretty easy to cheat with that lmao
worthy jasper
Easy if you're a hacker maybe.
tight basin
i mean like there's been instances of cheating in this game before
damue is one we meme about a lot
he had increased crit chances
there was an instance with a chinese heat player a bit ago where they had like an all gold laurel ely with no df
plain river
Easy if you're a hacker maybe.
…exactly?
tight basin
you could route your run, which has been done before lmao
whether it be through a set seed and rng manips or just straight up hard coding the doors and rewards you want
vorime just got a 2:05 for instance
worthy jasper
Isn't that through a sanctioned seeded run?
plain river
Isn't that through a sanctioned seeded run?
Yeah because seeded is a speedrun category
But
how would the game tell
for an ingame leaderboard
tight basin
oh yeah you could totally just do a seeded run lmao
worthy jasper
Idk ask the devs of games that do this.
plain river
…I’m pretty sure they just manually take down any absurd values or thing
worthy jasper
No ask them how they deal with cheaters.
tight basin
by not having an ingame leaderboard lmfao
worthy jasper
Like I recently heard of MT Devs taking down a score from their daily challenge.
tight basin
what's mt
worthy jasper
Monster Train.
tight basin
ah never heard of that game
worthy jasper
Leaderboards are per seed.
tight basin
so idrk how the points are gonna be scored for that game
plain river
Like I recently heard of MT Devs taking down a score from their daily challenge.
Yeah I’m pretty sure most just manually check it
or maybe not most
But the ones that have any sort of security
just
“Hey does this seem at all possible? No? Ok bye bye”
worthy jasper
And the game is designed to have all possible choices pre-generated from the starting seed rather than dynamically during the run.
tight basin
yeah dynamic seeding kinda does a lot lmao
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/839538570738139146/1151570092115644456/unknown.png?ex=65ccf839&is=65ba8339&hm=9811d323992025c46ea471a5de672584bd5c01c1681496527228d045cde89848&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=561&height=346
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/839538570738139146/1151570145106464798/unknown.png?ex=65ccf845&is=65ba8345&hm=6454923986a0ed0ed00541b9fd94396f12b05451c6a16b6639cc2accc9bb2a02&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1177&height=477
this is the reset counter for the routed eris seed lmao
i'm assuming most of the resets are either for going off route
worthy jasper
I hear a few of the early rooms in particular are awful due to shades.
tight basin
sounds about right lmao
plain river
Oh what
tight basin
oh i meant like using top player routes
vagrant crane
oh
worthy jasper
Like I hear any time shades fade in or out it rolls one.
vagrant crane
yeah cause thats boring
tight basin
i mean it was fun when it got released lmao
and tbf if the thing was easy to do then it'd probably be more popular
worthy jasper
Or at least there's something shades do that cause the rng to roll.
worthy jasper
Oh you mean that emote over their head?
Btw does anyone still habitually thank the shade in the heroes room?
vagrant crane
yes
worthy jasper
Oh I guess if you're doing igt there's no penalty for that.
Since iirc the timer freezes after beating a floor boss.
vagrant crane
yeah
worthy jasper
With regards to ravenous will, when exactly are you considered to be empty?
tight basin
when the thing says 0/x
if you load all your casts into hera/beo and the number says 0/3 then rav will is active
worthy jasper
So it boosts the cast as well?
tight basin
yeah
worthy jasper
So if you're on Stygian soul and only have one blood gem it's always on basically provided you use it as soon as it's up.
worthy jasper
It would also increase the damage from lightning rod now that I think about it.
worthy jasper
No those are separate scenarios.
Is it just me or is Zeus just all around great?
Synergy with a lot of things and even effective by itself.
Is deadly reversal still good as well?
Doesn't that let flat damage crit?
Like idk Zeus call or something?
Or divine dash into something and then Zeus rail?
tight basin
Is it just me or is Zeus just all around great?
most of the time yeah, zeus is good
tight basin
Is deadly reversal still good as well?
yeah but most of the time it's seen as a supporting duo unless it's on nem
or i guess zag bow maybe
and yeah flat damage cna crit on that
worthy jasper
What was nemesis again?
plain river
Crit sword
worthy jasper
Oh right you special and then get crit buff on attack iirc?
plain river
Yeah
Normally it’s like heartbreak strike / artemis special or vice versa but you can play around with athena
worthy jasper
Oh with builds like that I like to focus more on things that can happen when you crit, like increased crit damage or Hunter's mark or something.
vital night
Nemesis is a little unfun to play with art attack unless high level PP+HM
tight basin
it's more like it sucks unless you have dedge
worthy jasper
Dedge?
tight basin
double edge
plain river
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/1084241364457357413/...
Smthing like this
Normal nem focused on heart rend but if you want you can mix in athena like above
for deadly reversal on top
tight basin
since i play modded and can get double edge easily, i like starting arty and branching to either aphro or athena, whoever comes first
vital night
it's more like it sucks unless you have dedge
Even with art attack you do like 40 damage until you do like 300
plain river
Even with art attack you do like 40 damage until you do like 300
With arte you rely on chaos and rush delivery
tight basin
dedge is basicaly like epic aphro atk with a pom
which is why you kinda need that for arty atk
vital night
But consider that I could have dedge AND epic aphro atk
plain river
With a dash strike boon or 3 from chaos
worthy jasper
What about zagbow with shackle? Anyone ever do that?
vital night
For me it’s like
vital night
The highs of arty are higher than anything bc crits feel good
plain river
start to finish without attack/special/cast cores
plain river
The highs of arty are higher than anything bc crits feel good
The big thing is if you have enough extra additive from everywhere else
worthy jasper
Not just shackle but full shackle?
plain river
Arte starts dealing more average damage to bosses
vital night
Yeah unfortunately it’s generally hard to get going for me
worthy jasper
I like zagbow ngl. Very good with Hunter's mark.
vital night
Aphro is generally consistent with an already decent crit chance
worthy jasper
Destroys heroes
vital night
And pp+HM seems to bring the crit up to par with arty anyways
worthy jasper
I think for deadly reversal you just need to hit something with any damaging Athena boon right?
plain river
Not just shackle but full shackle?
If this is what you mean by full shackle
Avoid looking at that scuffed pact
That was over 100 wins ago!?!?
What the
plain river
Aphro is generally consistent with an already decent crit chance
Real gamers take shackle into tart for consistency
🧠
tight basin
shackle nem is just splash nem with extra steps
worthy jasper
I think if I'm gonna try shackle I'd take a god trinket into tart and shackle later.
untold iris
It's not hard to do the math between aphro and artemis
tight basin
I think if I'm gonna try shackle I'd take a god trinket into tart and shackle la...
nem and hestia generally do that
start tidal, if you dont pick up a good attack in tart then take shackle into aspho
plain river
tbh though for Hades, hitting breakpoints consistently does matter a bit more then average damage from artemis
untold iris
But general rule of thumb for nemesis that I remember is that aphro outdamages until you get extra % damage from somewhere
tight basin
It's not hard to do the math between aphro and artemis
there's a whole ass graph for that somewhere lmao
vital night
But general rule of thumb for nemesis that I remember is that aphro outdamages u...
That makes sense
plain river
But general rule of thumb for nemesis that I remember is that aphro outdamages u...
That’s just how crit works 
Not a nem specific thing
worthy jasper
I think Hunter's mark is more important than arty attack?
tight basin
wdym
that largely depends
because some builds like arty attack and marked is good after that
and some dont, so they rather take pp and marked from that
tight basin
yeah generally speaking if marked is offered, you have no reason to not take it unless you're crit source is from a button you dont use
untold iris
also worst case scenario HM makes future artemis boons better
since you stop getting offered HM
worthy jasper
I mean I haven't done the math, but I think if you have Hunter's mark and you're on zagbow, or have some other crit source, then aphro or shackle would be better in most cases right?
plain river
I mean I haven't done the math, but I think if you have Hunter's mark and you're...
Aphro is just a better source unless you consistently hits tons of additive early
untold iris
give me a few min and ill do the math
plain river
consistently hitting enemy breakpoints is a lot better than sometimes hitting them and sometimes not
vital night
^
plain river
give me a few min and ill do the math
If you whip out average damage per hit
You missed the entire point of breakpoints
vital night
I’ve played a relatively large amount of nem and either the build takes off really early because you got pp and HM, or you just feel useless into ely
worthy jasper
I think if you factor in Hunter's mark the average goes way up tho right?
vital night
The point isn’t average
plain river
I think if you factor in Hunter's mark the average goes way up tho right?
if you factor in hunters mark then artemis is even less relvant
Since you just chain crits from there
worthy jasper
I mean that is the point I'm trying to make.
plain river
I’m saying aphrodite is consistently better then aphrodite because of the consistency
vital night
If I want to know if I should plan another dash strike through a 1000 hp enemy that’s at 200, it feels good to know whether the strike is going to be enough
plain river
It doesn’t matter how much arte’s +15% crit chance boosts your average damage when 70% of your hits fall short of breakpoints
plain river
and like
untold iris
on nemesis sword specifically
epic attack with 3 poms in it
the average dps on artemis isnt even higher until you have 250% extra flat damage
150% flat damage if you have heart rend
plain river
factoring chaos damage or rd is 
vital night
Real
untold iris
well part of the difference is that arte attack has awful pom scaling
worthy jasper
Anyone ever run a build, possibly unplanned where splitting headache became part of the damage scheme?
untold iris
but there needs to be some way to represent that aphro attack scales well with poms
i picked 3 for a realistic number
plain river
Anyone ever run a build, possibly unplanned where splitting headache became part...
Splitting headache doesn’t work properly even when planned
untold iris
its not like im going to compare level 3 aphro vs level 1 artemis
worthy jasper
Is there a bug of some sort?
vital night
Idk a time where I’ve had arty and dio in the same build
plain river
The best part of artemis is how she multiplicatively scales w/ chaos and rd
vital night
Maybe eris
plain river
Is there a bug of some sort?
I swear we explained this the other day
Hmm
Maybe it was a different person
untold iris
on a regular weapon (non-nemesis) the break point where average dps on artemis is higher in my example is 100% bonus damage
plain river
splitting headache is minimal crit chance, dilutes your duo pool, and only affects things that already have a crit chance
untold iris
which is very achieveable
worthy jasper
Might have been me but it wasn't discussed for very long.
untold iris
since you get 50 from boiling blood and 25 from FF
vital night
Wait no I got it. Passion dash hangover Chiron with arty on attack
untold iris
but 250% bonus damage for nemesis is pretty unreasonable
vital night
Surely
worthy jasper
Oh right I remember now, you have to have a base crit chance already.
So it's not at all like deadly reversal.
plain river
nope
vital night
I mean if you get splitting headache you already have crit chance
untold iris
but also a lot of your damage is likely coming from hangover
plain river
I mean if you get splitting headache you already have crit chance
minimal crit chance boost
untold iris
which is not affected
plain river
and hangover won’t crit on it’s own
untold iris
unless you have exactly pressure points
vital night
*minimal crit chance boost*
Wdym
plain river
7.5% isn’t huge
vital night
Oh yeah
untold iris
basically splitting headache only increases crit chance on things with innate crit
vital night
Alright just making sure that’s what you were referring to
untold iris
hangover has 0 crit so it doesnt benefit
and if you have the duo it is very likely that hangover is a big part of your damage
so the duo is pretty reliant on pressure points
which makes the hangover actually able to crit
worthy jasper
Wait so IF and I only mean in theory, if you have pp and splitting headache, hangover ticks can crit?
plain river
yes
untold iris
yes
plain river
That does not make splitting headache good
It’s a minimal dps increase compared to every other hangover duo
worthy jasper
Hence me saying "if, in theory".
untold iris
its sort of like how merciful end really wants athena dash to reach full potential
but ME with athena dash is broken
whereas splitting headache with pressure points is just "good" when at full potential
basically a multiplicative 15% damage increase to everything
you wouldn't turn that down but its not gamebreaking
worthy jasper
Yeah I get you wouldn't necessarily go for it but I think it's fun to just think about things.
Like "hey if you do these things, this cool thing happens".
It's just fun nothing more.
worthy jasper
I can't believe people just have these tables too lol
plain river
I definitely just happened to have this table on hand
Definitely didn’t just make it 4s ago
untold iris
why is it labeled heart rend
worthy jasper
You're very tried.
Like once again this isn't about optimization, but just, you know, funny fun times.
worthy jasper
So lets say you have splitting headache, pressure points, and hunter's mark.
And you kinda hangover everything.
Then you can see hunter's mark kinda bounce around without you even doing anything?
plain river
Nothing say’s you’ll just hit one duo
Not me checking my propaganda folder and realisng I don’t have a Low Tolerance Curse of Nausea Heart Rend Splitting Headache ss sitting around
vital night
Then you can see hunter's mark kinda bounce around without you even doing anythi...
I guess
You’d probably eventually want that on eris
If hangover eris
finite escarp
If I'm running Zeus attack on Adamant Rail, would Swift Strike (faster attack speed) be counterproductive?
Like, would I just run out of bullets faster while still maxing out the Zeus trigger cooldown?
analog mauve
yep
finite escarp
A pity 🙁
analog mauve
real
finite escarp
Under any other circumstances, +30% to attack speed on the Rail would kick ass
Tangential, but anybody know exactly how many Zeus procs you usually get per clip?
Assuming you're just unloading the full 12
analog mauve
i think you get all 12 unless you dash, but i dont really know
finite escarp
Wait, is there an internal cooldown on Lightning Strike (Zeur attack)?
I know there is for Thunder Flourish
But I don't see one mentioned in the wiki for Strike
analog mauve
yeah there is
vagrant crane
Wait, *is* there an internal cooldown on Lightning Strike (Zeur attack)?
0.15s
vagrant crane
wiki sucks
tight basin
i thought lightning strike was on the wiki
that's how i found out about it
oh nvm it's not on it
where'd i learn that then lmao
ocean vortex
So...what's the base rate of fire for the Rail
I'm actually curious now what is the rate for the rail
finite escarp
I figure if it's above a given multiple of 0.15 s/shot, then Swift Strike still increases DPS as long as it doesn't knock you below that threshold
ocean vortex
I guess
glacial sonnet
hey so does bad news mean i straight up deal 50% to anyone without a cast lodged in them?
native bramble
hey so does bad news mean i straight up deal 50% to anyone without a cast lodged...
It's your cast that deals 50% more damage
viral geode
I think the bug gives a global 50% buff, not entirely sure though
eager flint
yeah same, it's what I remember
plain river
I'm actually curious now what is the rate for the rail
Have not seen weapon attack speed numbers outside of delta chamber at all in a year of talking
I’m sure data miners know but not anyone active here
Might toss a question to the Hades modding server
Generally speaking since dash striking is meta for most (if not all) weapons it’s not a big focus
viral geode
Also flurry fire
worthy jasper
What are the logistics of Hermes appearances? Sometimes I get two in a row in very early asphodel.
Or I get it in tart shop And the second one in the first asphodel room.
proper furnace
He is prioritized by the game to appear quickly but idk the specifics
And that you can't get your 2nd hermes in tart unless you use chaos/erebus as an extension
vagrant crane
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/523766792963751936/806166976561020928/eris-test-dmg.png?ex=65d4b501&is=65c24001&hm=f4633b52c92d1a0755c5e2dac305bdda3333f3d0a851e62081a12f1c3bc2b03c&=&format=webp&quality=lossless #523766792963751936 message
worthy jasper
Sometimes I don't get second Hermes until Elysium.
glacial sonnet
Is hermes unaffected by gods legacy or olympian favor? Or just rng since he gives commons a lot
tight basin
He has reduced rarity odds
proper furnace
Is hermes unaffected by gods legacy or olympian favor? Or just rng since he give...
1% for his legendary/3% for epics/6% for rares if you have no rarity boosts
untold iris
hermes is separate from other gods in the pool
the game tries to keep the ratio of chamber rewards that it creates in a specific proportion
specifically the ratio is 3 boons/2 hearts/2 poms/2 obols/1 trial/1 hermes/1 first hammer/1 second hammer
but hermes is restricted to only start showing up in asphodel
vagrant crane
or c14
untold iris
yeah he can show up in the end shop as well, but thats not a door reward
vagrant crane
he can be a door reward with extension
untold iris
oh
i didnt know that
cool
so by the time you reach asphodel your hermes odds are very high since the game has generated a lot of non-hermes rewards
analog mauve
I'm yet to get the fabled extension epic rd
untold iris
thats also why you often see the second hammer as the first door in elysium
by the time you get to elysium there's possibly three copies of the second hammer sitting in the pool of potential door rewards
so it has a fairly high probability of getting picked
vagrant crane
untold iris
the one major rng thing im unsure about is how chaos rarity chances are determined
I know how the legendary is generated and that it is funky
vagrant crane
chaos dd is so cursed
analog mauve
Trololo
untold iris
but im not sure what the baseline odds for a regular chaos boon is to be common/rare/epic
vagrant crane
feels same as normal
untold iris
well we know that regular gods are all the same and hermes is specifically very low odds to be something other than common
chaos feels same as regular gods?
or is it more similar to hermes?
vagrant crane
it feels like the same rarity as normal gods
you can actually like obtain epic chaos on legacy without sacrificing your firstborn
worthy jasper
Wait so Hermes is affected by mirror but less so?
untold iris
hermes still gets the same rarity bonuses from the mirror
worthy jasper
Or more accurately lower base odds?
untold iris
its just that his baseline rarities are lower
worthy jasper
Does mirror affect Chaos?
worthy jasper
So regular gods have better odds which is then further compounded by god keepsakes. With the Chaos one still not guaranteeing his appearance, and the Hermes one not even giving a bonus.
untold iris
well the hermes keepsake is still very important for completing the fated list
since it gives you two chances at his legendary every run instead of one
which is very important because his base chances for a legendary are only 1%
worthy jasper
That's a different conversation altogether tho.
untold iris
compared to other gods at 12%
worthy jasper
I just use it to get Rush Delivery early.
On a plume run.
Not sure if I'd do it on a non-plume run lol.
Except as like a gimmick.
vagrant crane
on pride u can take plume into aspho with no hermes if u dont need to force a god and u want better rd chance
worthy jasper
Is it really weird that I do like to explore gimmicks?
Pride? You mean the mirror perk?
vagrant crane
yea
untold iris
on pride u can take plume into aspho with no hermes if u dont need to force a go...
does RD even do anything without the prereqs?
i guess you can buy ichors from the well but thats it
vagrant crane
u still need sprint
worthy jasper
Pride was the one with epic up?
vagrant crane
Pride was the one with epic up?
yea
worthy jasper
Technically it raises the odds of getting both.
untold iris
quick question, does RD + sprint do anything for beo?
im not sure if the shield charge takes longer than 0.5 secs or not
untold iris
oh I mean if you can get the casts off within the dash time
worthy jasper
I think .5 seconds is deceptively long.
untold iris
idk how long the minimum charge time is for the shield
worthy jasper
At least I do feel like time moves slower when I'm playing Hades.
Like I sometimes right after getting hyper sprint I like using it a bunch of times.
And I swear the .5 seconds feels more like 1.5 seconds.
analog mauve
oh I mean if you can get the casts off within the dash time
you dash after you shoot
untold iris
oh
worthy jasper
Idk I just like the effect if going whoosh when I get hyper sprint so I just use it for no reason.
untold iris
that makes sense
worthy jasper
Oh there's that too I guess.
analog mauve
same with bow especially rama i think
untold iris
thats cool
proper furnace
the bonus damage is taken into account when the shot hits?
Yeah
untold iris
ok the dash after shooting thing makes a lot of sense
proper furnace
You can see it with eris more easy
worthy jasper
I think I might go for a poseidon sword run again. I have it unlocked already so might as well do it for the variety. Should I start with the desired cast or should I start with Poseidon?
untold iris
I think I might go for a poseidon sword run again. I have it unlocked already so...
do you have it maxed out or just level 1?
worthy jasper
And Poseidon is a strong start for runs that may not go the way I'd like them to go?
untold iris
and just pick whichever lodging cast shows up first
basically artemis attack -> pick the first lodging cast that shows up -> force poseidon for tidal dash -> mirage shot
or something like that
worthy jasper
Hm.. Artemis start might actually be better yeah. Put it on attack so it's out of the way, since I might want to use a better special.
Yeah I'll pick Artemis.
proper furnace
Like, I should be getting Exit Wounds no matter what I do, right?
I wouldn't say that is something you should aim for
Some strong casts (mostly aphro/athena) can kill stuff on their own
worthy jasper
Doesn't exit wounds really increase the damage?
proper furnace
Maybe at bosses ig
untold iris
it does for bosses but regular enemies die too fast
proper furnace
But if you get a juiced up cast you are most probably leaving bosses at one tap away from ohasing
untold iris
its still more important to get cast buffs
worthy jasper
Wait so is the midshop in the blue pool?
untold iris
no
worthy jasper
I sometimes see it as a blue room
untold iris
shop and story room can be either blue or gold
worthy jasper
I see
untold iris
theres just no restriction on laurel color for the mid shop and story rooms
so sometimes they add to your blue count if the room is trying to force a blue exit
and sometimes they add to your gold count
worthy jasper
Nvm died to charon
Next time the sword comes up I'll try again
Oh well lookie here, I get a rematch with hera bow
vital night
Hm.. Artemis start might actually be better yeah. Put it on attack so it's out o...
Tidal dash start can be more consistent imo
Especially if you’re unmoddedand can’t guarantee dedge
worthy jasper
Perfect shot is... fine, I think?
untold iris
most of the bow hammers are fine
vagrant crane
its not really gonna matter on hera
worthy jasper
That's why I say fine?
vital night
Flurry is fun
vagrant crane
flurry is definitely the best
twin/triple are after tha
and then point blank or perfect
untold iris
flurry just lets you get off max range casts without needing to charge
vagrant crane
then chain
untold iris
everything else is just some extra free damage
worthy jasper
Didn't have any of those options sadly. So I went with perfect.
vagrant crane
well perfect is one of them
worthy jasper
Poseidond ash doesn't really interfere much with hera bow does it?
vagrant crane
it can be annoying
vital night
I personally like it for killing small enemies while I focus on casting into the big ones
vagrant crane
tempest flourish can be used for dad
to push him while he's bubbled
for easier wallbugs
worthy jasper
Oh, I can fight Charon again in tart lol.
Yolo I guess
Hm... Fourth god is Dionysus. No choice in the matter, not too bad I think?
vagrant crane
he has a lot of nonpommables
after party
strong grinch
prem vin
and prem vin can get u cast pom
vagrant crane
that means u can hourglass into aspho if u want
or plume if u have no hermes
and nothing good in well
untold iris
tempest flourish can be used for dad
wait you can shove bosses?
vagrant crane
i wouldnt off 1 ix
worthy jasper
Grasp is unaffected by rarity? Still only +1 stone
vagrant crane
yes
worthy jasper
Better than +38% cast damage?
vagrant crane
yes
worthy jasper
Quick reload or reroll?
vagrant crane
Quick reload or reroll?
take the qr
worthy jasper
Looks like I got the W
I think the strong drink really elevated the build.
Are multiple casts done in quick succession? So if the enemy takes increased damage from weak and I load up five casts will that mean that four of them deal the increased damage?
tight basin
Yeah
vagrant crane
yes
tight basin
The casts don't all hit at once, it's a bit staggered
worthy jasper
lol sword again. I think I'll start with the cast and worry about exit wounds later. If I wanna keep my distance a little I should probably go phalanx?
What about zeus cast? What do you think?
proper furnace
You'd want static discharge
Gets you a neat tart but god help your dmg later
Phalax with the zeus duo is basically electric shot too anyways
worthy jasper
Hm.... That last one is a very good point. Although I have not been able to grab any useful duos lately.
And I feel like I still want pride over legacy just for a chance of getting a better cast.
worthy jasper
For some reason I stometimes lose a lot of defiances in the solo asterius fight.
plain river
For some reason I stometimes lose a lot of defiances in the solo asterius fight.
but not on the regular heroes fight?
worthy jasper
Sometimes less so
plain river
afaik he fights identically
so it may just be you being less cautious because he's by himself
or that the altered arena shape throws you off
worthy jasper
Maybe there's just less room to move idk
glacial sonnet
does dedge work on arthur sword? the animation doesnt look different
vagrant crane
does dedge work on arthur sword? the animation doesnt look different
yes it works
glacial sonnet
does it also work on the wide slash animation bc sometimes zag still does the wide slash when dash striking?
plain river
does dedge work on arthur sword? the animation doesnt look different
Dedge doesn’t change the animation on regular sword either
plain river
does it also work on the wide slash animation bc sometimes zag still does the wi...
While arthur keeps the standing strike combo through dashes and can end up performing the standing strikes at the end of dashes, they don’t actually count as dash strikes
viral geode
For some reason I stometimes lose a lot of defiances in the solo asterius fight.
Lack of acorn maybe
worthy jasper
I don't use acorn during heroes either
glacial sonnet
does parting shot mean my cast can do backstab too? or it gains 35% of backstab bonus to any shot
or like i get bonus 35% backstab damage on top of casts being able to backstab
proper furnace
or like i get bonus 35% backstab damage on top of casts being able to backstab
gains ability to backstab + the bonus dmg
and to be super specific is like, other bonuses apply to it but parting shot's bonus doesn't work on other stuff
viral geode
and to be super specific is like, other bonuses apply to it but parting shot's b...
What do you mean by this?
Parting shot bonus is global I think
proper furnace
I should've put the "I think" cuz this is like always point of discussion
viral geode
OK sure
proper furnace
If anyone else wants to confirm please do
Last time I mentioned parting shot before this I got it stuck as only works for the casts
viral geode
I've seen attack backstab with parting shot and no shadow presence or blinding flash
proper furnace
Oh that's just the text showing up I think
tight basin
Yeah that's just the text
proper furnace
Like slicing shot doesn't work with it but still shows up the text
I had a vid with that
tight basin
Parting shot let's casts backstab and any other backstab modifier you gave gets added into that too
viral geode
Huh ok
proper furnace
Funny enough you could get parting shot with beo before
It was good money at least
tepid sinew
Hello! I'm gearing up to try and beat Hades for the first time and I was wondering what an optimal-ish build for the twin fists zagreus aspect are? They're my best weapon by far so I was wondering if there were any particular boons/hammer upgrades I should be fishing for or keepsakes I should be leveling up
vagrant crane
Hello! I'm gearing up to try and beat Hades for the first time and I was wonderi...
merciful end
doom attack
athena special and dash
poms on the doom attack
merciful end duo
preferably impending doom and good hermes like hyper sprint and rush delivery or greatest reflex
tepid sinew
Who is merciful end from?
vagrant crane
ares or athena
if u meet the prereqs
need doom and athena on attack or special
it can be a little rng reliant
tepid sinew
So I should grab curse of agony/pain and divine strike/flourish + athena's dash and whatever I can get from Hermes
vagrant crane
yeah
a more consistent build is zeus attack with static discharge + poms
something like pos or athena dash
zeus call can be good
well
not just can
it is good
tepid sinew
Every time I've used Zeus' call I've not liked it lol
vagrant crane
its the best call in the game
tepid sinew
I tend to put hangover on my primary
tepid sinew
I equiped my Athena keepsake and got a hammer in the first chamber lmao
vagrant crane
So I should grab curse of agony/pain and divine strike/flourish + athena's dash ...
specifically doom attack and athena special
other way around is much worse
tepid sinew
Got it
What the heck my Athena thing isnt doing anything I got hammer then key then centaur heart
vagrant crane
yeah it just forces the first god you see to be athena
if you dont see a god it wont make u get a god
eager flint
oh
vagrant crane
||does she know||
eager flint
tepid sinew
Well now I'm guessing theres a secret second health bar lol
vagrant crane
wait till you hear about the fourth one
tepid sinew
I still havent gotten any boons yet
vagrant crane
nice
eager flint
I'd recommend going for zeus fist over Merciful End
ME is notoriously finnicky
When you go for ME, you have like 50/50 to actually get the boon in time for your build not to suck
Whereas with the other build, you equip zeus keepsake, grab attack, grab jolted, and you can mostly improvise from here without much trouble
proper furnace
I still havent gotten any boons yet
How many skills from the mirror you have
tepid sinew
I had one really good build I dont remember what all it was but I had fists with extended attack range + hangover on primary plus Poseidon dash that did ruptured and a few other things
proper furnace
Full mirror unlocked?
tepid sinew
As far as I can tell
tepid sinew
I'm not looking at the mirror but I have something from everything so to some degree yes
vagrant crane
like which options do u have on
eager flint
you can check it in a run
tepid sinew
How?
vagrant crane
press b
eager flint
on the same screen where you can check your boons
proper furnace
B on kbm, - on controller
vagrant crane
or the button thats like the pause button but on the left for controller
tepid sinew
Will check after I clear this chamber
tepid sinew
and fated persuasion
This is the only one of the three I have
vagrant crane
ur gonna want dark foresight
plain river
wait till you hear about the fourth one
Fifth*
vagrant crane
thats the 3rd from the bottom
plain river
ur gonna want dark foresight
Makes you find more boons/hammers/obols/max hp/poms
significantly more
tepid sinew
I could have swore I got at least one level of everything on the mirror
proper furnace
You can only choose one side at a time per talent
plain river
Including the green side?
tepid sinew
Theres a green side?
plain river
proper furnace
Persuasion is the green side
plain river
every upgrade has a green counterpart
there are little arrows in the mirror menu for swapping
vagrant crane
oh thatll do it
tepid sinew
I was not aware of this
proper furnace
Always happens
plain river
I was not aware of this
Most people don’t find it for a whileeeee
vagrant crane
I was not aware of this
not the only one
what even is the nyx dialogue when u unlock it
proper furnace
At around 300 darkness iirc
vagrant crane
does she indicate that there is a green side
proper furnace
There's even a pop up banner like "powered up mirror" style
vagrant crane
i wonder how many people she made swithc to ruthless reflex because of that
because its later so it must be better
plain river
ruthless reflex
proper furnace
And yeah the convo is like "I see you are deepening your bond with the mirror" or isk
tepid sinew
I feel like this game always has another system I just didnt know about
plain river
Wait until you hear about the skateboar-
tepid sinew
No there is not a skateboard I refuse to believe that /j
plain river
tight basin
there isn't a skateboard but there is a spaghetti plate
tepid sinew
there isn't a skateboard but there is a spaghetti plate
Aegis?
tight basin
vaguely yes
plain river
No there is not a skateboard I refuse to believe that /j
Me omw to explain rng manipulation/save scumming for the umpteenth time
tight basin
plain river
Very few cases where it’s good
tight basin
how's this for skateboarding
plain river
Oh actually
tepid sinew
Ah
proper furnace
Is that zag sword
plain river
for real secret systems
tight basin
probably
plain river
Bouldy boons
plain river
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/857268448039927858/1120106943659384872/...
No heroic haste smh
tight basin
my brother in christ
proper furnace
Ichor stacking my beloved
tight basin
that is like 20 ichors
plain river
tight basin
wait that's only 14 ichors and zag sword
proper furnace
Hermes boons should've been rare crop'd
tepid sinew
Dang I dont remember I got that close to dying dying in Tartarus
tight basin
isn't vorime doing 14 ichors for his dio beo seed
untold iris
i think movespeed bonuses are multiplicative?
tepid sinew
52 HP after all death defied
vagrant crane
isn't vorime doing 14 ichors for his dio beo seed
17 now
untold iris
so 14 ichors is super zoom
vagrant crane
vorime on his way to make life pain in order to save 0.05 more seconds in shops
true soldier
vagrant crane
no
proper furnace
Cuz surely trippy already deals enough dmg
tepid sinew
I switched to the Ares keepsake in Asphodel and got a Hermes boon gate???
tight basin
hermes isn't a normal god
proper furnace
He was faster
tight basin
he's more like a hammer
plain river
I switched to the Ares keepsake in Asphodel and got a Hermes boon gate???
Hermes is seperate
tepid sinew
Thats weird
proper furnace
its for movespeed
Lmao makes sense
tepid sinew
I'm guessing Hermes, Chaos, and maybe Demeter are like special or something and have different RNG rules?
tepid sinew
Ah Demeter just never shows up for personal reasons then lol
plain river
Once you have taken boons from 4 normal gods you’re locked in
plain river
Ah Demeter just never shows up for personal reasons then lol
She won’t show till you reach the overworld/surface
tepid sinew
Yeah I've gotten her like once
plain river
After that she has regular odds
plain river
Once you have taken boons from 4 normal gods you’re locked in
Can only see more by forcing them in with keepsakes
aside from Hermes and Chaos
tepid sinew
Demeter just doesnt like me I guess
untold iris
can theseus summon demeter if you havent reached the surface?
not that it matters too much, just curious
plain river
and you can only get 2 hermes boons before styx, where you have a 50/50 for a third in shop
plain river
can theseus summon demeter if you havent reached the surface?
Theseus can only use gods you can possibly have
so for fresh file he can only choose from ares/dio/athena/artemis
prior to dem it’s everyone but dem
untold iris
what if i have all 4 gods before i reach him on fresh file
plain river
Theseus can only use gods you can possibly have
And that you don’t already have
proper furnace
what if i have all 4 gods before i reach him on fresh file
Defaults to artemis
plain river
what if i have all 4 gods before i reach him on fresh file
Defaults to artemis every time your pool is full
This includes when you have 7 or 8 gods in your god pool on runs post fresh file
plain river
Can you get all 8 in your pool once dem is unlocked?
I think so
untold iris
with mods maybe
tepid sinew
Demeter just doesnt like me I guess
Right after I say this she shows up in Charon's shop
plain river
Have 3, hit 2 more in a tart shop and be forced into a 6th next chamber
proper furnace
Ik you can get natural 5 with shop funnies but that still leaves only 2 keepsakes
Oh you can get natural 6?
plain river
can you not natural 6 througg a bag?
vagrant crane
o
plain river
I figure you could but idk
vagrant crane
wouldnt random bag still not do that
because the game pretends your god pool has the god on the doors
tepid sinew
Home sweet home
vagrant crane
or something
tight basin
7 is max before styx isnt it
plain river
because the game pretends your god pool has the god on the doors
Does it? I dunno
plain river
7 is max before styx isnt it
Questioning whether random bag an get you
proper furnace
Yeah idk if natural 6 is possible
vagrant crane
this was in speedcord a while ago
plain river
hmm
Would it be possible
To delay your keepsake?
3 in tart that aren’t your god +2 from shop + 1 more from keepsake
untold iris
i dont know how doors/shops are generated well enough to know whether thats possible or not
would require looking through the code probably
eager flint
I've often got a shop that gives me a 4th god on top of a door that gives another god
plain river
I've often got a shop that gives me a 4th god on top of a door that gives anothe...
yeah but the important part is about getting 6 from that
Not 5
eager flint
so maybe the doors can't contain more gods than what it'd take to fill your pool, but the shop completely can
proper furnace
Insane theorycrafting just for a meme
plain river
so maybe the doors can't contain more gods than what it'd take to fill your pool...
No
Bc
The
Thing we’re discussing rn
Is full pool by theseus
plain river
full (8) pool by styx is 100% possible through multiple different avenues
untold iris
one of those avenues is cheating!
plain river
one of those avenues is cheating!
?
proper furnace
And full pool by Theseus is either fresh file or pre dem
So trying to cook and include dem
proper furnace
if you cheat you can get 8 gods in your pool easy
Damue picking arty and having Thesues call in her anyways:
proper furnace
or delaying your keepsake
My bet is in delaying, cuz I ain't dealing with how that bag works
plain river
Damue = increased crit dude?
proper furnace
Yeah
proper furnace
Damue picking arty and having Thesues call in her anyways:
Iirc someone also noticed smth like this with one of the runs
plain river
How does that even happen though
proper furnace
About to go back in time just to archive the runs
plain river
How does that even happen though
Tf do you have to mess up while boosting your own crit chance to make that happen
proper furnace
I never saw the actual runs so my guess is on top of crit chance is change god rates/pool to also see arty easier w/o keepaake
plain river
Oh would he do like
shackle start?
How did they get exposed anyways
Crit chance seems pretty obscure to figure out it’s been boosted
Unless the boost to crit was outside of the nem buff?
untold iris
you can count crits
and do statistical analysis
same way they figured out dream was cheating in minecraft
literally just tracking the rates of his item drops and showing that its basically statistically impossible
the difference between 15% crit and 30% crit is hard to see if you're not specifically tracking it, but if you are tracking it it can be very obvious statistically
proper furnace
#h1-high-heat-strategies message a few of the modifications
(scroll down from there)
proper furnace
Crit chance seems pretty obscure to figure out it’s been boosted
Basically what silly said, really deep checking in Damue's vids
untold iris
oh the nectar stuff is also pretty obvious
the way the game generates door rewards i think its literally impossible for 3 nectars to show up in tartarus
maybe there is some super specific circumstance involving door rerolls that can make it happen but if you have RI on then its definitely impossible
plain river
the difference between 15% crit and 30% crit is hard to see if you're not specif...
Oh so someone actually did that for Hades
I was thinking Hades was too small for someone to a) notice and b) put the work in to check
jade gale
If this is re-creatable I would be surprised if this isn't known yet but I just found this bug:
Here are two screenshots that are 1 frame apart in the recording: (Also do embeds work here?)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/310102399119261697/1205067703065251901/1.PNG?ex=65d705c1&is=65c490c1&hm=3883a9b57ee31f900d7960d93bcc063fb7bc162eb588342e1d9716ea634425cd&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/310102399119261697/1205067703543533598/2.PNG?ex=65d705c1&is=65c490c1&hm=940f231e92275ec633bd357f77807f1f7aa814c60f3ce1912bd49082db383db9&
So I dealt a seemingly absurd amount of damage in a frame that did not even advance the game time and cause my game to lag
This seemed to happen because I walled slammed Hades with Poseiden Aid at the same moment he was jumping to his spear
eager flint
Yes, it's known
jade gale
neat. That's pretty silly
eager flint
It is indeed ! ^^
jade gale
good to know it isn't just my PC lagging and causing something weird/exclusive to me to happen
thanks for the answer - back to gaming with me
glacial sonnet
i didnt know blizzard shot makes the cast not lodge anymore 
is it ever good with its painfully slow projectile?
jade gale
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1166706402144825404/1205094454499737630/2...
I'd say it can hit very hard and inflict a lot of Chill - which can be good depending on your build if you've gone full demeter
might not be the strongest duo but can be nice to have - of course if you're not playing Exit Wounds Poseidon aspect lol
glacial sonnet
+415 obols
and whadya know i got fully loaded
ok srsly after i sold blizzard shot demeter and poseidon has offered it back like 4 times in styx
this will never happen if im using achilles spear
worthy jasper
I feel like when running a cast build, pride is probably better since the cast would benefit immensely from being epic.
jade gale
oh yeah that's very true for like all the combo casts. The rarity can matter quite a lot
glacial sonnet
do heroic rarity ever drop on their own or is it only as a replacement option + rarity upgrades
eager flint
Second one
plain river
is it ever good with its painfully slow projectile?
Yes
It’s far better than exit wounds focused damage tbh
Since it keeps procing the cast damage on the same targets
where your cast damage should just be far better then whayever exit wounds can muster
plain river
I'd say it can hit very hard and inflict a lot of Chill - which can be good depe...
Blizzard shot itself doesn’t actually inflict any chill fyi
jade gale
what I guess I should go rewatch my own recording because I clearly was not paying enough attention during my last blizshot run
analog mauve
You tell me 🤨
errant narwhal
Discord is making AI notifications about what conversations are about approximately
Scary but funny
tight basin
oh lmfao
tight basin
true
untold iris
The fact that discord is reading all your messages so that it can sparknotes the convo with their ai bot is kind of creepy
south sonnet
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1166706402144825404/1205094454499737630/2...
blizzard actually does a lot of damage on bosses
its garbage on knockable enemies though
worthy jasper
Third attempt EM hades also ended in failure. For some reason I started taking less hits the less life I had lol.
tight basin
prob because you realized you dont have as much hp so you played more carefully lmao
worthy jasper
Probably
If only I could play like that all the time.
Also if only I didn't get attacked by Sneaks all the time.
worthy jasper
Why couldn't it be like a butterfly orb or something?
tight basin
no that's a bad one
tight basin
butterfly balls are generally worse than sneaks lmao
worthy jasper
I really dislike Sneaks.
tight basin
pretty sure at least, most of the high heat people complain more about bball than sneak
worthy jasper
I do consistently reach the third phase, but the road there is very bumpy.
For some reason the third phase feels a wee bit safer now?
In fact the phases seem to get progressively easier?
untold iris
butterfly ball is the worst because acorn is so powerful
worthy jasper
Well I'm not no-hitting anything so I use spearpoint lol
untold iris
and its really easy for butterflies to eat your acorn charges with their hits that do like 6 damage
in general acorn is just saving way more hp than everything
except if you lose acorn charges to summons randomly
tight basin
In fact the phases seem to get progressively easier?
the 3rd phase is basically the same as the 2nd except you can't see
or at least limited vision
untold iris
hades hits for like 30-50 damage per hit even without HL turned on
tight basin
and no cerby
tight basin
first phase of em4 is unironically the hardest because of summons
worthy jasper
Like I had to get used to a few things, but the mechanics get more basic with each phase.
untold iris
and if you have HL turned on because high heat acorn is all of a sudden like 400 free HP
worthy jasper
Although he can now chain invisible into laser spin.
untold iris
the lack of vision is a bit rough if he starts an attack from outside your range
if you have a call that helps a little bit
since using a lesser call can help extend the invicibility from dashing
but you need to have quick reactions
worthy jasper
To be fair, if you can't see him he's not attacking yet. As long as you don't set yourself up for a spear throw from off screen or something.
At least that's what I figured out while using the shield. Which is a little bit safer at observing.
tight basin
he can laser off screen can't he
untold iris
yeah its laser and spear throw that can hit you from outside your vision i think
tight basin
and prob spear throw, i dont see why he wouldn't
untold iris
i guess maybe he can throw a skull at you?
worthy jasper
I did mention spear throw
untold iris
but the skulls are a lot slower than the other two attacks
worthy jasper
Does he even use skulls in phase 3?
worthy jasper
He doesn't, go invisible, not in phase 2
tight basin
my sub1 em4 fight had a phase 2 darkness since i got pot stunned
tight basin
timestamped, he darknesses in a few secs
i'd have to find a longer em4 fight where he actually throws skulls lmao
worthy jasper
Hm
tight basin
oh yeah he def does it
worthy jasper
Is it worth mentioning that the only time he went invisible was during the summon?
tight basin
bai's 64 vid, dad launches skulls right into his shield
tight basin
Is it worth mentioning that the only time he went invisible was during the summo...
in my vid?
or like in general
tight basin
well like
my vid is not a good example of a typical em4 fight lol
he might darkness every time he summons but like
he can darkness outside of that too prob
welp in bais vid doesnt look like he darknessed in phase 2
so guess not
outside of the summon
worthy jasper
Weird that he didn't cast during one particular fight
I looked back at my previous fight
He does use cast there.
No darkness during phase 2 outside of summon tho
untold iris
i dont think dad can darkness in phase 2
its just his summon
where he goes off the map with darkness
he can't do the attack normally
south sonnet
pretty sure at least, most of the high heat people complain more about bball tha...
i used to be in my sneak phase
now im on to the bball phase
glacial sonnet
Does lucifer gun need high tblood or something i thought the ramp up beam dmg is decent enough
glacial sonnet
also do attack boons affect loaded casts in beo and hera or just the attack?
valid dagger
also do attack boons affect loaded casts in beo and hera or just the attack?
Only attack
If you want Lucifer to do good damage you want to focus on the Special and try to look for Triple Bomb. The beam is nice but will fall off against beefy enemies and bosses
glacial sonnet
So the way to play lucifer is priorities shooting the bombs?
glacial sonnet
Zeus attack can help with triggering bombs while firing at nearby things then?
uneven sand
im about to start a poseidon sword build, is Lightning Phalanx and Merciful End a good combo?
eager flint
no
ME is both self-sufficient, and hard enough to get by
you really can't allow yourself to search for another god and for another duo
especially when you would need 3 cores from Athena
Same for lightning phalanx. It's enough of a build on its own (with the usual chaos/well/poms) but you're unlikely to stumble upon ME while on it
plain river
Does lucifer gun need high tblood or something i thought the ramp up beam dmg is...
Bulk of the damage comes from exploding the special
The damage ramping is kind of irrelevant
glacial sonnet
do i need to put all 5 lvl upgrades to get good dmg from the special
also whats a good aspect for fighting charon early
besides arthur
plain river
do i need to put all 5 lvl upgrades to get good dmg from the special
No
I mean
You literally double the damage output going from level 1 to 5
Bit you don’t need it
plain river
also whats a good aspect for fighting charon early
Safer aspects like any of the shield aspects, hestia, and rama
glacial sonnet
is the obol bag spawn chance per run or per visit to his chambers?
proper furnace
is the obol bag spawn chance per run or per visit to his chambers?
Is a 22% to spawn when entering any of the midshops
worthy jasper
I have had success fighting Charon in Tart with the bow.
And pretty much nothing else rofl.
I don't even like the bow.
proper furnace
Shield/rail/bow are always safe options
Also less stuff needed for having dmg if you wanna do the tart fight
worthy jasper
Only if you remember that the shield is a shield.
glacial sonnet
does the "win 2 battles vs charon" counter reset if i dont fight him in a run?
acoustic skiff
glacial sonnet
alright
also whats the best percentage special boon for lucifer? aphro?
or maybe artemis for crits, are there like duos to watch out for with lucifer
proper furnace
Not really, build is same as eris
Maybe rod if you are using infernal and go for arty
Or smair if Aphro
glacial sonnet
i have zesus attack and artemis special
already picked up aphro, maybe aphro dash? whats a good 4th and 5th god to get
im going w athena
lmao triple bomb turns satan gun into s tier firepower
so good
feels like having dio casts without dio casts
proper furnace
Oh yeah triple bomb is it's best hammer by far
100 less base dmg than clockets but just 1 hammer
glacial sonnet
i broke my bet against charon with a tart luci last time but im gonna get greedy and try triple bombing charon now
night and day difference lol
though i did get like 2 chaos boons to buff my special by over 100%
found hunting blades for bonus too lol
glacial sonnet
are there good non bomb hammers for the rail? so lucifer is triple bomb and others are rocket + cluster
proper furnace
Hestia can use the attack hammers
Namely ricochet/piercing
Zag rail gets to use spread fire
Delta chamber keeps your iframes on dash strikes
wooden jungle
I'm using dio attack on nemesis blade with double edge for the first time and it might be one of my favorite builds
Will probably post the build in the other chat if the stats are decent
Also hadn't taken any centaur hearts until Elysium and got 4 chambers in a row followed by Charon 
The game really said stay alive
plain river
i have zesus attack and artemis special
already picked up aphro, maybe aphro das...
Aphro dash is almost never the answer