I wonder if panda is also delicious when cooked
#off-topic-discussion
wide ember
wide ember
jujube congee, bamboo, canned eel, and now I'm eating a chicken leg
oh there was also quince boiled in cinnamon and clove water
ionic viper
the "also" concerned me because the only "also" you could have been referring to in my sentence was............ humans...........................
wide ember
if I were eating humans would I explicitly state it
and human is too high in calories anyway
upbeat scroll
humans can have little a human, as a treat
wide ember
funny thing, there is no word for "cannibalism" in chinese, to my knowledge, cannibalism was always spelled as "eating human"
in equal stance to "eating meat" "eating fish" and the like
(I don't eat humans in the literal sense)
sol,
that
upbeat scroll
cannibal in english is derived from "caniba island" an island where the native people were rumored to eat people. this rumor was perpetuated by colonizers in order to gain permission from the royalty to steal the caniba land.
wide ember
(I initially said that because I do play as cannibal captains frequently in sunless sea but I see how that can be taken wrong, delete it if you want)
caniba island sounds very plausible but there are too many islands with the same name, it's not the one in Manitoba right?
ok got the word source
faint panther
@fleet sable LATE BUT it is snell’s law 
though the one i’m studying is a formula for refraction of sound waves 
fringe sparrow
@ebon birch The only thing I would love to do is another weapon for Hades, but its quite the hardest one to do because I completely dont know what tool they use to convert 3d models to sprites
ebon birch
it's like a pixelize filter
fringe sparrow
nope its not
ebon birch
you can refer to the making of deadcells
fringe sparrow
these are bink videos converted from 3d with 16 different angles
ebon birch
they use the same technique
ebon birch
y
fringe sparrow
Hades is full 2d game
ebon birch
you sure?
fringe sparrow
yeach
ebon birch
hmm well I have no clue how to add a weapon but you can give him new moves
fringe sparrow
ebon birch
oh thats how it is
used to play an mmorpg like that
other than recolors its hard to do anything with this kind of system
there's probably no 3d models in the game files too I guess
ebon birch
I wonder why they use this system
fringe sparrow
the funny is that its beta with full files, the game can be 3-4GB
but there are 1080p and 720p sprites atm
it allow them to do the style they have
hand draw
no cell shading give you such result
ebon birch
yeah I guess 3d models would take too much processing power
with all the action on screen
fringe sparrow
yeach but it have few cons and one of them is slowing down process of creating so much
ebon birch
well yeah having to make 16 frames for each move
anytime you want to modify something you have modify all 16 frames too
fringe sparrow
they have to rerender models before they see result everytime. with 3d models they can make a fix , load to game and done
ebon birch
I think I'm gonna try and release a mod
gleaming prairie
vocal brook
Ratatouille...
ionic viper
tiny rat with a tiny hat
autumn pasture
okay genuinely tho. that is a good movie
somber ferry
it is!!
hasty kernel
Just the critic scene alone is amazing
fringe sparrow
https://imgur.com/XV3kkgf
My project in Adobe XD, an portable console.
Im doing project like this just for myself, first to learn the program, second just learn to keep attention for details. So I spend so much time looking just for this and bringing all my ideas to it. It increase my creativity if I can tell something like this. English is not my native lang..
Overall its 5.7inch screen Handheld console, It have D-Pad on left, as well as joystick.
On the right ABYZ buttons and an track ball- yeach. Its my idea to use it. I never liked to play shooters on consoles, mostly due of low accuracy from joysticks. Track ball is basically an mouse. Still some designers use mouse's like Logitech with Track ball because its better in some ways. Its Big enough to be confy and not too big to keep the console thin.
Beside this there is USB-C port, 3.5mm jack port. and R/ZR L/ZL buttons at the top corners.
SD/Game cards slots on right/left side.
The dimensions are 210mmx90mmx22mm
chilly briar
Is this design focussing on hardware? Curious as to how you'd handle the trackball input, acceleration, etc
hasty kernel
Im also not sure I agree with a trackball basically being a mouse
The big benefit a mouse has is that the speed at which you can move the cursor/reticle is not limited in a meaningful way, while maintaing perfect precision
A trackball cant really do that
I guess its still a whole lot better than a stick
chilly briar
trackball can be learned with muscle memory at least, if there's no acceleration
hasty kernel
Tbh I cant say much about the details, its been like 10 years since I last used a trackball
No wait, 2010 was 10 years ago
It was 15 years
Bloody hell
hasty kernel
Back when gaming was simpler, and proper action adventure games were still a common sight
fringe sparrow
The difference is that you use whole palm to hold mouse, on trackball its just one finger
its 1-2 days and you rly use trackball as mouse in terms of precision
Also trackballs works the same way mouse's do
in todays hardware
hasty kernel
I mean yeah, I can see why you cant use a mouse on a controller, though they do function rather differently, and precision or speed have to be lower
Whichever of the 2 you dont prioritise
chilly briar
wouldn't go as far as to say they work the same way, mechanically they're quite different in implementation (comparing to a laser or optical mouse). However they strive to achieve the same goal
I really don't miss cleaning out trackball mice lol
the grubby mess they pick up in a short time was... not nice
wide ember
That’s why people buy glass desks that they keep impeccably clean
So the mouse barely picks up anything
serene tulip
no SGG games at AGDQ 😦
wide ember
I might be experiencing bamboo sprout cyanide poisoning
(probably not, but that thing sure is hard to digest)
north hamlet
was it worth it?
wide ember
I feel like yes, so delicious
But next time I’ll cook them instead of eating directly out of the bag
Humans are not pandas and cannot neutralize the very real cyanide in raw bamboo
hasty kernel
I wonder if roguelikes ever got featured on AGDQ
faint panther
tboi in half an hour
don't know if others have been featured before
haven't followed them religiously so far
serene tulip
I think hades just isn't "Done" enough yet
grand lichen
Crypt of the Necrodancer was featured once
faint panther
Enter the Gungeon has been featured in SGDQ 2018, as far as I remember
Time will tell, but I could very well see Hades being featured on there at some point
upbeat scroll
I remember seeing risk of rain once, that's a roguelike I think
lusty osprey
Risk of rain is def a roguelike
ionic viper
click the link
wide ember
my bad, thanks
wide ember
it is a bit slow (everything loaded in one at time) but with urban internet it should be fine
(I'm using suburban cheap internet)
are the images in progressive format?
south pike
i don't think so, i've been quick exporting them as .pngs in PS
would using a progressive format help?
wide ember
usually it makes the loading "quicker" in that the images would be there just a bit blurred for the first second
whereas here they just weren't there initially and suddenly appear
and yes the images would usually be a bit smaller in file size too
it's called interlaced for gif and png but the idea is still progressive loading in
south pike
gotcha, thanks! i'll look into it
true furnace
from #h1-builds-and-combat i keep hearing about dead cells, maybe i should try it out one of these days
lusty osprey
Never heard of it
OH
I also played catacomb kids a lot. Really good game for the single guy working on it.
Has no story whatsoever to it though.
Also played rad which is just hades but 10x worse
true furnace
crypt of the necrodancer ftw
summer hamlet
Dead Cells is a great game but its much less forgiving than Hades
If you're more getting into Roguelikes (lites ugh idk) I recommend it for its very robust and well made combat systems. However, do be warned that it will not be an easy game. You eventually unlock boosts which makes the game easier, but the increased difficulty modes will sharply bump it up again.
red relic
summer hamlet
Do make sure you download the Rise of the Giant dlc for Dead Cells though. Its completely free and adds new areas to the game (harder ones, but they're fun to explore and get weapons from)
I would also recommend picking up the Bad Seed DLC which lauinches this quarter if you like Dead Cells. Its adding more "early game (more early run)" content.
The other nice thing about Dead Cells is that the game gets frequent balance updates to keep it fresh and nerf things that prove to be too much (like removing knife throwers from the first level in harder modes ugh)
tulip hearth
Late to the conversation but Dead Cells is a good time, I haven't played a ton but I like what I have played
raven harbor
Yeah theres just something about Dead Cells combat that feels heavenly
serene tulip
its definitely like, my go-to metroidvania
vocal brook
Dead Cells is a roguelike, not a metroidvania
serene tulip
I feel like those two genres are not mutually exclusive
raven harbor
Yeah Dead Cells definitely falls under both
serene tulip
point and click your guts
north hamlet
One describes gameplay, the other describes progression system
vocal brook
Fair enough
grizzled anchor
No not really, calling it a metroidvania because of one similar aspect doesn't make much sense
serene tulip
Everyone's taking about baby yoda in the mandalorian but the real star of the show is Gina Carano's arms
blissful charm
hey could someone give me some feedback on some story stuff
mostly an idea
nvm figured it out
north hamlet
Back to the topic of game genres
There isn't a reason a game can't have multiple genres
And some genres only describe one part of a game
autumn pasture
as someone who likes metroidvanias, i feel like the handcrafted nature, with carefully designed shortcuts and backtracking, is what makes them good though
like i don't think procedural generation like i'm under the impression dead cells has would scratch that itch for me
north hamlet
Yeah, that difference is where the roguelike part comes in
Alternatively you could describe dead cells as a roguelike platformer while metroidvanias could be considered rpg plaformers or something
There's the separation between rpg plaformers with interconnected maps or stages
So i guess you'd need some way to split those too
hasty kernel
In fact its rare for a game to not have multiple genres
That being said, Im not sure I entirely agree on Dead Cells being MetroidVania
The idea of metroidvania is to have a large map that gets explored in a non-linear way, with backtracking being a key component
In Dead Cells, each individual run is pretty linear, and you cant backtrack
sudden torrent
dead cells is more of a platformer imo
it has the right aspects for that with traps and ledges and such what not.
tulip hearth
I agree, the map in a metroidvania is always very deliberate, if Hollow Knight was procedurally generated it would never in a million years work
serene tulip
This, in my opinion, belies the core of a metroidvania. Yes the map is important but what's important is the distinct zones with different flavors, not the actual layout. Dead cells has that reasonably well.
If dead cells was missing any specific metroidvania aspect its that there's only a limited collection of tools that you need and they're usually just for access, not completion, whereas say super bombs and missiles and stuff you need for access and bosses. Secondly there's no real backtracking. However I'd say neither of those aspects are so key to the metroidvania genre that they exclude dead cells.
uncut sigil
The thing is metroidvanias aren't linear they just aren't dead cells is extremely linear hell by your definition Hades could technically be a metroidvanias dead cells is extremely linear and just isn't a metroidvanias imo
bold radish
@novel bone Hey there! I'm a big fan of your art. I am an aspiring concept artist and your art style is one of my motivations and references for my growth. Thank you very much for everything, as your art is one of the main reasons why i adore all Supergiant games so much. You mastery with vibrant colours and dynamic shapes is godlike.
@novel bone Do you have any Gumroads or any sources from which i could learn from you?
serene tulip
Hades doesn't have platforming though. It allows you to augment your weapons but not change them.
wide ember
(dear frito-lay: why do you only sell dragon chips in japan, you are an american brand so why not sell them in north america as well?)
sudden torrent
I think the true metroidvania rogue-lite can be considered Sundered, but to be real, it kind of messy due to that, but in a good way? Like the map is random somewhat, but main rooms there are always the same. The game is basically about doing runs over and over, imrpoving the base equipment while getting more resources each run. It is fun, but I can't lie, when I played it I got bored the aspect of having to die over and over to progress, (I mean dying wasn't exactly the only option you could go back to the spawn too, but then it would take more time and you are better off trying to survive as long as you can).
hasty kernel
Honestly Im in favour of having more precisely defined genre, so "soulslike" seems reasonable to me
Having more ways to filter is always good
In fact I kind of wish we had more precise definitions for adventure games
hasty kernel
See I like parts of that genre a whole lot
But its so extremely wide in what it covers
That its not terribly useful
faint panther
absolutely, my ew was referring to the nomenclature not the astonishingly vast and vague genre itself
wide ember
maybe instead of genres, we need archetypes
chilly briar
my issue is that anything remotely challenging is "the new dark souls"
wide ember
"the dark souls archetype" "the supergiant archetype" and the like
faint panther
the "dark souls of" phase of internet discourse has come and gone though
hasty kernel
Yeah that part was silly
wide ember
because genre is very board and often non-indicative of the part that the player wants to know
hasty kernel
I mean it depends
serene tulip
The "dark souls of" phrase is the dark souls of genre discourse
autumn pasture
what is the supergiant archetype? i need to finish my supergiant bingo card
hasty kernel
I already have a pretty good idea of what the game is gonna be about
Because "stealth game" is pretty precise
There are still differences
autumn pasture
but 'stealth game' could still mean either 'game where you play as an assassin who will be killed instantly if seen' or 'untitled goose game'
hasty kernel
What perspective it uses, is it real time or turn-based
I mean true
But thats a much smaller difference
serene tulip
or invisible inc
hasty kernel
The kind that you can fine-tune
Yeah invisible inc would be turn-based and isometric
faint panther
invisible inc is moreso a tactics game
hasty kernel
Vs Dishonoured being first person and real time
Its a turn-based stealth tactics game
faint panther
ye
hasty kernel
At least thats what I would call it
So yeah, stealth is a great genre
Fighting game is probably the most precise genre
Or hell, "Anime fighter"
serene tulip
That depends
autumn pasture
my main interest in genres is, i freely admit, mashing up implausible sounding genres and imagining what would come out
hasty kernel
If a game is an anime fighter, you basically know what its like
Smash Bros is a platform fighter
Far as I know there are 4 broad fighting game categories?
Traditional, anime, arena and platform
Of which only "anime" does a poor job of describing it
faint panther
arena?
faint panther
aight
hasty kernel
Or the Naruto games
faint panther
right it's fake 3d
hasty kernel
Tekken is more of a 3d traditional fighter
Arena is specifically very floaty, flashy and frankly ludicrous
sudden torrent
supergiant archetype for me is kind of like:
3D game from top-down view, with story being a heavy aspect of the game, with upgrades and somewhat of a progression system to imrpove your character, or some sort of thing that makes the gameplay harder by multiple sliders and or with a definite hardmode and of course, it must have a song with Ashley Barrett providing vocals.
faint panther
and it has to be gorgeous in every aspect
hasty kernel
Story-based, isometric, with a great emphasis on atmosphere and character interaction
Including the otherwise elusive "silent character itneraction"
serene tulip
The true aspect of a SGG-type is Darren Korb Interactive Album
faint panther
dang zag is the first talkative protagonist
i just noticed that
also after giving it some thought the most precise genre denominator is probably the egglike
wide ember
...egglike?
faint panther
yes
sudden torrent
darksouls-like and etc
faint panther
no, egglike videogames
upbeat scroll
One of these days I'm gonna make a souls-dislike game
serene tulip
literally can't die
serene tulip
darksouls 3 but color inverted
hasty kernel
Isnt that basically the yarn game Kirby had?
sudden torrent
so like a cutsey game with animals and exploration?
upbeat scroll
Sounds like a good game
serene tulip
knotty sable
Oooh lasagna
serene tulip
so many carbs
faint panther
Trying Hyper Light Drifter for the first time. My PS3 controller won't play nicely (face buttons are being assigned to D-pad directions, menu buttons on shoulders, mass hysteria) so I'm playing on MKB. You dash to mouse cursor in this game and after a few hundred hours of Hades it's the worst thing in the game.
north hamlet
you can change the dash target to movement direction in the settings
the dash to cursor upset me too
until i did the dash challenge in the training area
it's really helpful there
raven harbor
I have the same controller issues with Rayman Legends
buoyant frigate
I've been trying to wear my hair curly more often and take better care of it this semester
Tomorrow I'm finally gonna have time to section and gel it instead of rush gelling it and I am Excite
Gonna diffuse for some extra volume too
tulip hearth
My hair is in a bad way, I'm thinking about cutting it all off so I can regrow it fresh and take proper care of it
But I haven't cut my hair in like 6 years
buoyant frigate
Honestly Ur valid
I got a sidecut and I've been trying to grow it out for months
but because it's Light and Curly it always wants to go straight up vertical when I get up in the morning 😂
buoyant frigate
ahh, benefits of long hair....
tulip hearth
But I wish it had a little more verticality to it
buoyant frigate
I diffuse it upside-down to get the extra volume that I like
getting layers helps with volume too tho
faint panther
Okay, just knocked out a miniboss with movement direction on dash.
And now I wanna try learning mouse dash and then apply that to Hades.
buoyant frigate
mouse dash??? goofy...
faint panther
I'm gonna try movement dash for a minute.
tulip hearth
Set my pfp to my old one for visual reference on my hair
faint panther
Like, it kinda works in HLD?
buoyant frigate
Ohhh fun, long curls are great
Kinda want to grow mine out now that I know how to take care of it
How is HLD? it's been on my "next to play" list for a hot minute.
tulip hearth
As much as I really want to play it I just can't get into it
It looks so good but it never grabs me
buoyant frigate
huh! ok
faint panther
It sells the pixel style very well.
Just a personal conceit, it doesn't hurt the game at all.
buoyant frigate
ok!
either of you tried with controller? I got one recently cause Moonlighter was an Oof without one and I'm interested in using it more
tulip hearth
I use a controller for a lot of games, it works well enough for that one
Controller is more suited for platformers though
Like hollow knight type
buoyant frigate
I have an XBox one
tulip hearth
Same
buoyant frigate
I need to play Hollow Knight... I'm undecided on Switch or PC tho
prolly switch cause I love them Nindies
tulip hearth
Do you have a pro controller?
buoyant frigate
nope
buoyant frigate
hmmmmmm, ok
tulip hearth
Also that way you use headphones and you can hear the music that much more
Cause that ost is full of bangers
faint panther
Silksong's OST is gonna be CRAZY.
tulip hearth
Hot diggity yeah it is
buoyant frigate
I have listened to the OST and I really like it! Makes great bg music for me because it's good but I'm not emotionally involved yet lol
I really like the uhhh.... the Green one... uhhh
faint panther
Greenpath?
tulip hearth
Greenpasthj
buoyant frigate
YEAh
faint panther
When that oboe comes in. 👌
buoyant frigate
It's Delightful
faint panther
I think it's one of the best games ever made.
tulip hearth
Gonna get a tattoo of the nail
faint panther
Old versus Pure?
I actually like the design of the Spiral the most.
All my tattoo ideas are just icons from video games: The FFX fishhook, the Doom Slayer's mark, a Servbot, Paper Mario.
serene tulip
Everyone is donating for Badger and its adorable
faint panther
At AGDQ?
tulip hearth
I want to get the SotC sigil as well
faint panther
SotC?
tulip hearth
Shadow of the Colossus
blissful charm
does anyone have any advice on how to quit a job? i'm quitting my part time job so i can go full time at my other one, but i want to do so in a proper and respectful manner
serene tulip
where, approximately, do you live?
blissful charm
in oregon
serene tulip
what sort of part time job is it?
raven harbor
I mean, 2 week notice seems like a good first step
blissful charm
it's a tutoring position that meets twice weekly, altho there are a lot of weeks i don't work
serene tulip
if you're feeling particularly formal you could write an official letter of resignation
but most of the time I've found a "I have to quit, this is my two weeks notice" has been good enough for most of my part time jobs
faint panther
Blood and darkness, I got 97 consecutive dashes in the challenge and now I can't break ten.
blissful charm
@serene tulip thanks for the advice!
faint panther
Figured out the BPM I needed and cheesed it with a Youtube drum track.
serene tulip
The issue I had when I got it was that it ramped up in speed
it wasn't constant
My save file where I got all the outfits apparently got deleted 😦
faint panther
First few dashes yeah, but it eventually hits about 225 BPM.
upbeat scroll
yall ever heard of long grapes
north hamlet
long...grapes?
mellow spindle
hey i've had those before
specifically ones that somehow tasted like cotton candy
wild
upbeat scroll
i gotta get my hands on these one day
cedar rock
mellow spindle
apparently a california-based fruit breeding team engineered them?
hybridized different grapes together and the result was something that totally tastes like cotton candy as it advertises
north hamlet
i think i've seen them around, but not the cotton candy ones
small loom
Welp. Waiting on the world to end, now
upbeat scroll
i hear ya there
small loom
I work in defense
upbeat scroll
well, i hope for your sake you have a way out
blissful charm
i want to go on a walk but it's still dark out, i am being oppressed by winter
buoyant frigate
What time is it? If it’s before 6pm and after 4am I say go for it
blissful charm
it's 7 am but it's kinda sketchy during the darkness where i live
but it is getting lighter
sand nacelle
blissful charm
never before have i seen darkness become light
buoyant frigate
It’s a good sight
blissful charm
oh i'm kidding i get up before sunrise all the time
buoyant frigate
F hi fjdhjdjddh
Dang, autocorrect starting to get my keymashes
That was supposed to be fjfjsjdjfhh
blissful charm
autocorrect always puts spaces btwn my key smash letters even when i dont press space
buoyant frigate
Nooooooo
serene tulip
what you gotta do is add some generic keysmash to your dictionary
blissful charm
i actually meant back to bed instead lmao
but i've been chronically sleep deprived this past week so it was good
olive lagoon
you guys know any fun co-op games for 2 players locally on pc?
north hamlet
i'd say overcooked, but it depends on the kind of people you and your friend are
heave ho and ultimate chicken horse (this one isn't coop whoops) are good
also human fall flat
north hamlet
could also play viscera cleanup detail if you wanna just chill for a few hours
portal 2 does have local
it is fun
that one also depends on what kind of friend you have though
crypt of the necrodancer may also be fun if the learning curve is not an issue
if you like visual novels monster prom and the yawgh are good
a bit short but high on replay value
chilly briar
portal 2 is so GOOD
autumn pasture
can recommend the yawgh, it's good and fun
sullen creek
Odd off tooic question, does anyone remember the name of the game which is sent on a ship in the ocean where you need to free or kill an alien.
You gotta talk to him and he's trapped in this single spot (can't remember why)
wide ember
did you get a victory or total failure
I remember that getting the disease would cause huge penalty to the ending?
while being friendly with your ex would add to better outcome, somewhat
autumn pasture
we got some failures and some victories-- played a couple rounds
dfgjhfg my brother kept getting really implausible bad endings for his character
serene tulip
-... . . .--. -... --- --- .--. -... . . -... . . .--.
north hamlet
are you a robot
upbeat scroll
arent we all?
hexed hollow
nope, I'm a pokemon 😛
upbeat scroll
Aron?
ebon birch
oh man I'm so pissed
the devs have removed a file that's required to enable debug mode for hades
now it's impossible to enable debug mode on public version
small loom
You can't just shove it back in from a backup, I assume?
Or do steamapps get twitchy when you go adding new operating files?
ebon birch
@small loom no, basically debug mode code is in this file and the public version of the game doesn't have it
small loom
Ah. Force of habit I guess. Obsessively backed everything when I was an in-house tester.
ebon birch
I sent them an email but I have low hopes they add it back
small loom
(not here, mind)
ebon birch
y backing stuff up is always a good habit tho it takes drive space
small loom
I used dropbox for the low-sensitivity stuff and cd's for whole builds
But that was an indie shooter on a modified w3d engine so not a lot of disk space even for the builds
ebon birch
I really wonder why they went so far just to disable debug mode
small loom
No idea.
ebon birch
they could have just required launch arguments like 99% of games
not sure if I'm gonna continue modding Hades if they don't add debug back
small loom
Unless I missed the context, you're talking about Hades, yes?
ebon birch
well yeah
small loom
[we're in off topic so I didn't want to infer]
ebon birch
we can talk about anything here, as long as we abide by the server rules
small loom
But in that case, couldn't you badger whoever the general inquiry staff is here
ebon birch
that would be the moderators and they have no say or influence regarding this
I don't dare dm the developers (the guys in red) cause from experience that results in a ban
small loom
That's. Odd.
I coukd see being blocked by them assuming they didn't already have server-wide dm's disabled client-side but to ban over a dm sounds a bit much.
Unless it was harassment
ebon birch
well most discord servers, unless they're not too big, if you dm an admin/moderator that's a ban
small loom
Weird. Never seen that before in my servers.
ebon birch
I don't know how they would react so I'd rather go through the channel they provided (send them an email)
small loom
Fair enough
ebon birch
you played Hades btw?
small loom
Most devs I've seen have a specific 'community manager' that'd really this sort of thing, but I think the closest thing to that role here would be Caitlin and I guess that'd still be a gamble. :V
ebon birch
don't have the role
small loom
Nah.
ebon birch
I don't think they have a CM
small loom
Maybe later, but I'm against Epic exclusivity. Will wait for the full steam release.
ebon birch
yeah me too, but since the exclusivity was while in early access I think it's fine
they got epic's money but didn't restrain player choice for final release
small loom
If they want a tester, I will happily volunteer. Until then, I'll wait for the finished product.
ebon birch
that's fine too
small loom
The steam release is early access
ebon birch
well yeah, no matter epic or steam it's all early access
they said the final release would be in 2020 tho
autumn pasture
from my experience, caitlyn is pretty chill about being @'ed if you have a question
ebon birch
@autumn pasture guess I'll try if they don't reply to my email
faint panther
The stance "I'd rather a dev make a worse game just to be exclusive to my platform," has always rung really hollow to me. It's a publishing deal. They all live better lives and we get a better product.
And let's not mince words, too many games are exclusive to Steam, and to pretend that Valve's "transparency" somehow makes it better to support their monopoly is hypocritical to the extreme.
hasty kernel
Yup, Steam has had a monopoly for ages, and it badly needed breaking up
From the unreasonable cut, to the amount of sheer power it grants them
Back in late 2018, they changed the frontpage algorithm to favour AAA over Indie games
It lead to a massive decline in sales for a bunch of indie devs
... I wonder if its worth visiting london for that concert
sudden torrent
I just kind of got used to exclusivity deals that EG do, I am not really going to use the launcher since I never had interest in it, but I do understand the devs need all the money they can get for the project for the safe landing, plus I can wait anyway that what I do most of the time due to how I never truly clean up my wishlist so it all stack piles till I get some money on the sale and clean it up a bit to try the games.
lament steppe
I'm still really out of the loop on how money and tech stuff works.
Why do they need to put their games on the Epic Game Store / Steam at all, in the first place? And what benefits do they get from doing one, the other, or both?
faint panther
Bigger audiences, organization, other benefits I'm sure I'm missing.
Store takes a cut of the sale (EGS currently takes way less than Steam).
wise wolf
Just a note, isn't SGG the publisher and Steam/Epic just a store? Because afaik their games are self-published.
Aside from the original release of Bastion.
faint panther
Yes, you are correct, my bad.
wise wolf
Anyway, the main point of putting the game in the stores is, you don't have to handle selling the game. And it is put on display somewhere, so new people can see it. People who just browse stores and look for games they might enjoy.
lament steppe
So it's kinda like advertising?
sudden torrent
with EG they get contract of sort that esenstially provides them some funding for the game, if they have the game exlcusive for a year or so.
Gog and Itch,io have a bigger cut for the devs too, but they aren't as popular per say than Steam or EG, for possibly reason Steam just been in the place kind of forever with features that it got to provide the user and dev alike to use, but more on the user side and EG for well doing quite unheard of (for at least in-PC) contracts for timed exclusives, which I see as good aspect for at least the devs for sure, though I have known of them since the unreal days. And even Discord did the thing, but it kind now doesn't.
wise wolf
Well, yeah (to the previous). But the "someone else handles selling the game" is an important point too I believe. They don't have to deal with refunds and stuff like that.
Also they don't have to manage servers where people would download the games from.
lament steppe
That exclusivity-funding thing is a new idea to me
wise wolf
EG chose an extremely aggressive tactic to win a portion of the market and it seems to have been successful. They decided to pump a ton of money from Fortnite and Unreal Engine in order to win both devs and players.
Because if they opened the store without that it would be just another store an nobody would care
Basically, their tactic is the equivalent of having a ton of money so you open a business selling underpriced stuff, surviving until the competition gives up and then enjoying the newly gained monopoly.
sudden torrent
oh and also Mircrosoft Store exists, but I for sure don't know the numbers for it.
faint panther
Dude, don't talk to me about the Microsoft Store. Them trying to bruteforce their way into Steam's release of Halo made me wash my hands of the whole franchise.
sudden torrent
But yeah there are many stores out there, one benefits player or dev better or keeps the things on the same level, all have their downsides and upsides, essentially it is just what you wish to decide to pick.
lament steppe
It just seems that the discussion often centers around "which store/platform is best?", rather then "is a store/platform necessary, and if so which?"
faint panther
I think it devolves into tribalism. "My store or nothing."
sudden torrent
I think all stores have a good and a bad thing in them, but yeah it all comes down to one side or another coming to conclusion "you are bafoon, for thinking such way of store, you are biased, I win, bye bye."
wide ember
I wonder if it’s serious or if it’s more like a pet cat thing (yes it depends on the individual but I wanna imagine them as cathood)
wise wolf
Steam - established platform, works great, invests a ton into Linux
GOG - very customer friendly, DRM-free, gives you offline installers, you actually own the game
Epic - ton of free stuff
MS store - uhhhhh exclusives I guess? lol
faint panther
I may repurchase a bunch of games on GoG, probably once Hades leaves EA.
wide ember
the “my cat is the best cat” mentality despite being ordinary cat just because your cat, applies to game platform: “ I use this all the time therefore it’s the best”
sudden torrent
I should really ask a friend of mine which uses mircosoft store, on how exactly it changed, although he isn't mainly using it, he sometimes uses it.
wise wolf
For example I can't see much good on Epic aside from it giving away free stuff
Windows-only, no offline installers, crappy looking client
Not many functions in the client
faint panther
I have no doubt eventually Epic's wellspring of free games will dry out, but right now? It's really nice.
Epic currently is my favorite because once the game is fully installed I don't have to touch it.
I've got to relaunch it to update, but that means I'm opening Epic maybe once a week.
sudden torrent
I still am curious how the "hey can you game be free for a week please?" negotation goes.
wise wolf
I believe they pay the dev an estimate of sales
faint panther
Steam and Origin both refuse to launch games unless you use the client.
sudden torrent
it's definetly along something like Humble Bundle stuff, but really with more recent titles.
lament steppe
Steam and Origin both refuse to launch games unless you use the client.
This I hate, and so I've avoided Steam since after Portal 2
launchers drive me nuts
faint panther
Right?
wide ember
I miss the floppy disc era so much
sudden torrent
like
faint panther
I'm just remembering playing ooold PC games at home and at my cousin's house.
sudden torrent
how many people do even have a thing to insert the disk in anymore lol
faint panther
Stick the CD in and launch Warcraft, or Ages of Empires, CnC.
serene tulip
what even is physical media
lament steppe
Or even just games that don't need a frigging internet connection
for single player
wide ember
Once you obtain a game in floppy disc it’s yours, there is no connecting to the internet for authentification or installing patches or anything
Just pop that square in and play
faint panther
It hurt me a little to do it, but I uninstalled D3 and all my Blizzard games.
lament steppe
keygens probably destroyed my first laptop
serene tulip
unless you count board games
sudden torrent
I still have a thingy for it, but the only disk for it I got is for Dinsaour Race that was in some promotion thingy for Animal Planet Channel.
serene tulip
god, keygen music
wide ember
I’ve definitely seen pirated board games and trading card games so
faint panther
I buy my products absolutely as much as possible, but there's something to be said for an SSD full of music and game .exes that will be mine as long as I can keep those files uncorrupted.
serene tulip
yeah
I definitely am sad I gave up my old media collection
There are some songs that I just can't find anymore because they were "Song09FromAmysMixCD2005.mp3"
faint panther
Lost all my iTunes purchases? Welp, not losing what's on an SSD that I just inject into various music players.
wide ember
I wanna play the floppy card warlords games so much but DOS box is really slow
lament steppe
I still refuse to move into the streaming music era
Bandcamp has been a blessing in that regard
faint panther
I did when I had a phone that didn't want to cooperate, but now I've got all my music again.
Bandcamp is wonderful, I've bought a lot of music from it.
wide ember
Though I still wish it could have option of bullet comments
And I miss all the fan made Pokémon games
Not hacks or mods, made from scratch and come in .exe
fringe sparrow
https://imgur.com/aJsfQvB
Another Handheld console project
this one is much more polished compared to previous one, if someone seen the last one then you will notice again some ideas which pushed me forward while doing it in Adobe XD
There is R/RB L/LB buttons on top of console, 2 options buttons ( the small ones , for settings or menu etc )
The main idea are the buttons which are D-pad and YXAB ones
Kind of hybrid analog buttons. These are fully clickable as these ware normal 4 buttons, but also could be covered in touch panels to push fully analog experience and enable 360* angle but still with a feedback because it require a "click"
wide ember
usually, when designing for business and submitting for bank loan, one big point is "does this solve a current market deficiency"
such as "current consoles are too fragile" "current consoles are too slippery" "current consoles are too expensive"
hasty kernel
My biggest issue with steam (other than taking extortionate cuts and the whole meddling with indies thing) is how terrible the steam launcher is
fringe sparrow
I dont project it to bring it to market, just for myself because I am young and want to do such things in life
hasty kernel
Seriously the steam launcher manages to perform worse than even Riots league launcher
And weve been meming the league launcher for years now
wide ember
then this one looks good enough, and better than the previous one
because it looks more original and I'm assuming that the grey pads are anti-slip? so more practical too
and sound panels face the user this time instead of facing up, so the sound quality would be better too
hasty kernel
Seriously, Steam managed to turn an update that contained mostly small bugfixes into a 29 GB download
For a 25 GB game
How
fringe sparrow
yeach, anti-slip panels as you said
hasty kernel
I kinda like the touch-screen D-Pad
wide ember
(now that I'm looking at design, I miss design univerity's kombucha... gotta get out and buy some soon...)
hasty kernel
If it works well its a godsend for fighting games
Imagine being able to just swish the motion over the touchscreen
720 inputs become actually possible
fringe sparrow
I sit for like 2 hours to get idea to remove joy stick but still unlock player for 360 analog experimence
like a phone touch but still needs to be clicked
hasty kernel
I imagine there is a technical reason for why its not done before, but it is a cool idea
wide ember
(it's expensive)
hasty kernel
On a sidenote, what I would really hope for
Is basically a commonly owned video game store
fringe sparrow
well these is not, it could be pretty cheap on flat surface
hasty kernel
The cut would be the minimal cut needed for maintenance and development
Otherwise the studios get all the money
And decisions over algorithms and promotions are ran past all the game devs
So no screwing over indies
wide ember
commonly ownd video game store sounds really great in theory but it'll probably turn out somewhere between real life communism and dashcon
hasty kernel
Not neccessarily
hasty kernel
Right, but its very niche is the thing
The idea is that this commonly owned store would be done with the explicit support of the game devs
Thereby rendering the other stores obsolete
And while I admit my understanding of the global economy is less than ideal, isnt the IMF sort of a commonly owned bank?
Sort of third parties working with the support of the primary ones are a thing in several industries, and the idea would be along those lines
wide ember
humans, knowing their nature, will still need an outside authority to maintain order though (shin megami tensei law voice)
I can actually see how this could work
in canada we have Desjardins, which is a commonly owned money deposit instead of bank
and it's as popular as official banks
each user is a member instead of client, and gain a share of revenue (something like $15 per year, but still)
hasty kernel
I mean the outside authority is the conglomerate of video game devs
chilly briar
did someone say shin megami tensei raidou kuzunoha versus the soulless army
hasty kernel
There would be essentially a company in charge of the store
(Hence cut for research as well as maintenance)
But they would be under supervision of this conglomerate
It might not be realistic but I can dream
wide ember
(raidou kuzonoha series is pretty good, too bad I didn't finish it, but the art and mood are great)
(also real time caged battle with humans and demons in the same space)
I mean, like I said, it's do-able in theory, it's just more probable to turn dashcon-esque
because it would be new, and nobody would have enough experience
hasty kernel
Unless you poach people involved in big storefronts from various companies
Or just hire them
Also wow the Shin Megami Tensei has even more obscure games than the ones I knew
wide ember
you've not a video game punk until you remember all the shin megami tensei
I'm a big fan because so many punk mechanism
not only you negotiate with demons instead of subduing and enslaving them, you can refuse them or cater to them and either could net you the demon, because respect limit drawing and gets pleased from that, and you get kinky ones that love getting refused...
wise wolf
Ummm, company in charge of the store means someone has to be in charge of the company.
wide ember
but power corrupts
hasty kernel
Yeah, the conglomerate of video game devs would be in charge
wide ember
supergiant in charge
wise wolf
Idk, can't really imagine that honestly.
Who would decide who is in the conglomerate and how much power they have?
wide ember
I imagine it would be a senate-style "democracy"
wise wolf
(sorry I don't want to sound rude hah)
You mean that devs who have a game in the store would decide?
hasty kernel
I dont know how the IMF works exactly
Any dev who joins the conglomerate, yes
And any dev who wants their game in the store needs to do that
wide ember
dev as in human individuals or corporate personality because
usually even in indies we have studios, and traditionally each studio would be one voice
hasty kernel
Yeah, basically
wise wolf
Then the store would necessarily need to be heavily curated so that you can't have a huge amount of "devs" come in with some crappy "game" so that someone gets more votes
hasty kernel
Yes
wide ember
otherwise you can be one studio that hires 200 devs and thus have 200 voice-weight in your thing
and that studio would be more powerful
hasty kernel
Though itd be less curated and more part of the joining procedure
wide ember
by virtue of being able to hire more people
wise wolf
You could have a company that owns multiple studios
wide ember
...that too
should we do something like "registered studios only"?
because registering a studio at the gouvernement costs about $200
hasty kernel
I mean 200$ is spare change for big studios
The details need to be ironed out, I admit as much
wise wolf
Also, what do the devs gain from being there? I mean, why would someone start this and not run it for profit?
wide ember
Desjardins splits the gain with all members, so we can do that too
and it's a matter of prevention of monopoly
wise wolf
So all devs would get equal pay from that?
wide ember
proportionate pay, not equal
wise wolf
Then the store has nothing to run from
wide ember
it's equity, not equality
hasty kernel
As in the minimum required to maintain and develop it
Lets say that would be, hm, 8%
(purely made up number, but bear with me for a bit)
In that case, you get to keep 92% of the sale
Which is considerably better than even Epics 18%
Where you only keep 82%
wise wolf
So, someone goes, puts in the capital to start the store, then gets gradually less and less power over it and is paid less and less and somehow is ok with it because that was the plan all along. That doesn't sound too realistic to me.
hasty kernel
I mean, that "someone" would be "everyone"
wide ember
social contract already exists, we are just applying it to money now
and each % grows in absolute value
wise wolf
But then surely not all participants would put in the same amount of money.
wide ember
a 1% that was only a $100 has the potential to grow into $1000 or more
not all members of Desjardins put the same amount of money in either
this is why equity is being used instead of equality
my ~$500 saving nets me a % of the yearly gain that is about $15 for example
a person who has $5000 in the saving instead would net something like $150
so the more you put in, the more you get back in absolute value
wise wolf
... but you would have equal votes?
wide ember
equity not equality
wise wolf
Ok, so something like a joint-stock company basically?
as far as my understanding of it goes
wide ember
kind of, but the owners are also members/clients
so in a traditional model, it's usually, a dev goes there, and is told that everyone gets X as offer and they better accept it or go somewhere else
in a common model (common being shared not usual), you can have more space for negotiation
wise wolf
(basically how every store, not just games or digital goods, works)
wide ember
"I need more than X because I have costs to cover"
and then the platform in our model would go "we have this list of funds that could apply to you thanks to the commonly shared model"
hasty kernel
Oh and if you mean the initial funding thing
Thatd be paid back via withholding the cut until its reached
wide ember
that's a bad idea
wise wolf
That's literally Epic
hasty kernel
Yeah
wide ember
or get an angel investor
hasty kernel
The idea is if you contribute to the fund
Then you will not recieve a cut on your sales until the total amount of not-taken cuts is how much you put in
wide ember
that would turn potential clients away
well, client-members
as indie dev, we are already poor and we need money fast
hasty kernel
You wouldnt put in funding then
wide ember
so being able to be paid upfront is important
hasty kernel
This is purely for the initial stage of getting off the ground
wide ember
that's why, you get a fund first, from the gouv or the bank
hasty kernel
And again, you still get the higher % of sales
wide ember
or a program/business for that but that's risky
hasty kernel
Like the money each member gets, the reason theyre in on it
Is simply because they get more of each sale
wide ember
see, that's another risk there
since you are new, you don't offer enough publicity
so it's less likely that people buy from you, so the absolute revenue would be lower
hasty kernel
I mean, the publicity would be that all the new games are only on it
Since the whole thing only works if you got all the devs on board
wide ember
too much of a gamble for the devs
we know the stats of the prisoner's dilemma, humans don't work that way
wise wolf
Just a thought, if anything like this worked, maybe it would be already put to practice.
Interesting concept though.
wide ember
I mean, for money deposit, Desjardins is already there and huge (within canada)
wide ember
just go get a fund first please
also, you are younger than 30/35, so you would count as "young entrepreneur"
and I don't know about your country but canada has a fund for that
you get free money to start
wise wolf
Yeah, but I don't think you can directly compare a financial institution and a game store. Maybe you can, but it doesn't really seem that obvious to me.
hasty kernel
Hey I dont plan to do this
wide ember
because it's harder to unite gamers and game devs than normal populace
hasty kernel
Im not charismatic enough to lead any kind of initiative
wide ember
because now you are targeting a specific niche of the population instead of generic population
wise wolf
The fact that getting the devs together is hard might mean that they have a good reason why they wouldn't want to join.
wide ember
and hey, uber didn't exist for the longest time because "who can even trust strangers" but look at today
hasty kernel
I mean the big reason is "why should I trust this random noone"
If someone were to do it
Theyd have to be pretty well connected within the world of game development
autumn pasture
'and i don't know about your country' [hollow american laughter]
wide ember
I haven't met a single game dev who doesn't have trust issue of some sort (gamers are another thing though)
...I'm sorry about the US
wait
but US does have incubator programs, no?
usually privately owned
autumn pasture
maybe? sure not government though
every time i play a game from australia and see like 'with thanks to film australia' i'm like.........god i wish that were me
wide ember
it's called grants
chilly briar
Same thing in NZ, lots of support for film and entertainment
also R&D
like my work gets a huge amount of funding from R&D initiatives
hasty kernel
I think even germany has grants for video games nowadays
chilly briar
the same initiative also helps us pay interns good money too instead of garbage
wide ember
yeah the Long Dark was from the canadian media fund
autumn pasture
i would be very surprised if we somehow had that in america
wide ember
is the past tense...
hasty kernel
Honestly I still wanna become a video game dev but Im slowly getting more and more unsure on how to even start
wise wolf
Alright, been thinking, if everyone gets money proportionally to what they put in... it means that they don't earn anything? Because at most they can earn exactly what they put in? So they lose the maintenance amount. They don't pay for maintenance of a store that lets them have higher cut. And based on how much they put into maintenance they have power over it.
autumn pasture
in america it's 'can i please have some money for something that's not the military' [voice from that one john mulaney bit] 'no! also we're going to frame you for murder!'
wise wolf
I think one important thing to note here is, game devs aren't all friends. It's a competitive market.
hasty kernel
Thats only until what they initially put in hasb een paid back, and no, they get the same cut as everyone else, and a bit more until their initial investment is paid off
I mean, I know that much
wide ember
devs earn because each game sold generates profit and it goes to the devs
hasty kernel
I dont really expect to compete at high levels
faint panther
I really doubt the VFX artists from Activision are looking at the VFX artists from EA and going "Those guys are my enemy."
wide ember
so that's why I said some money should be given to devs upfront
wide ember
and bind them by contract
hasty kernel
Next-best step is a small indie studio that I lead
But Im no leader, and Im also stubborn and unwilling to compromise my "vision", so
Yeah
Kinda makes both options not ideal
chilly briar
being a game dev is a huge job of passion, you have to really want it or you won't have a good time
hasty kernel
Oh thats not the problem
wide ember
I have passion, just not enough time and energy
hasty kernel
Id have all 3, but the trouble is obtaining the means, financial and otherwise
wide ember
I wanted to finish my demo on december 2019 but both november and december were busy time at my day job so I barely could work on my game
autumn pasture
what's your demo of, sol?
wide ember
I have this personal game project
autumn pasture
what's it about?
wise wolf
They don't earn anything, that's the math. Imagine you have a dev with 8% share, 30% share, 22% share and 40% share. So 8% of the money generated is by #1, 30% by #2, 22% by #3 and 40% by #4. You put 20% of the money generated away for maintenance. And pay the devs back from the rest based on the amount of money earned.
So
#1 has made 0.8*0.08*totalSum - 0.08*totalSum = -0.2*0.08*totalSum
#2 has made 0.8*0.30*totalSum - 0.30*totalSum = -0.2*0.30*totalSum
#3 has made 0.8*0.22*totalSum - 0.22*totalSum = -0.2*0.22*totalSum
#4 has made 0.8*0.40*totalSum - 0.40*totalSum = -0.2*0.40*totalSum
unless I'm missing something
hasty kernel
No the idea is that on each games sale
92% goes to the dev
8% to maintenance and development
Its not collected into a pool then distributed, but the cut is taken from each individual game and then put into a pool
And if X studio at the start provided Y amount of funding
Than the 8% that would normally be their cut is given back
Until the sum of it is that of their initial funding
Then the 8% cut is taken as normal
wise wolf
Ah yeah, I just wanted to say that the devs don't earn anything extra from this concept. They just pay lower cut.
hasty kernel
Yup
wise wolf
That's kinda like earning extra, true
hasty kernel
But paying less
Is the same as earning more
They end up with more money in their financial institution
For the really big studios
That can be a difference of millions of dollars
For the small ones, it can be the difference between the game being a success and a failure
wise wolf
But as I've said, game dev is a competitive field. You'd have devs with different interests all running the store. Bigger devs would be able to propose changes disadvantaging smaller devs that could possibly threaten them.
hasty kernel
Hence why its one studio one vote
wise wolf
We've already talked about that, that makes no sense. Suddenly you'd have a store run by people who have made a barely accepted game (possibly because someone hired them).
Also, why would big devs stay in the store if it would disadvantage them so heavily?
It also means that smaller devs would be able to put out bigger devs in order to claim their space.
wide ember
(my game is supposed to be a story rich platformer + RPG + visual novel game about conformism and choices)
hasty kernel
Well the first is why there would need to be a rigorous joining proccess
The second is because it doesnt. They still get more money, they just wouldnt get to strongarm the smaller devs
wide ember
the commonly owned model is supposed to give more power to the weak, the way small fish pokemon turns into that big pokemon thing
hasty kernel
The third one would probably require safeguards to not let them be totally outvoted
wide ember
how about just reason-based decisions instead of democracy
faint panther
Nice Wishiwashi reference.
wide ember
because democracy has one big flaw is, what if the majority is dumb
faint panther
That's still authoritarian.
wise wolf
I don't think neither the system of equal votes nor votes based on participation will work if involved parties have different interests and are possibly against each other.
faint panther
And if the "reason" gets mobbed, what does it matter?
wide ember
true
wide ember
(shin megami tensei lucifer voice) deep down, what humans desire is a king to lead them
hasty kernel
And democracy hasnt completely failed everywhere yet
wide ember
all systems have pros and cons and is never as important as the people applying them
wise wolf
Also keep in mind you are sort of forced to live in a democratic society.
In the case of this kind of gamestore the dev can decide if it's better for them to participate or not.
wide ember
I thought that's just basic right
even a slave can decide to obey or not if they decide they do not care about the consequence, and many masters had died in the hands of their slaves
(I said slaves but I was thinking of imperial rome and china)
(and technically they were called servants not slaves in china but the same idea, they were supposed to only obey but too often they decide to just poison the food and run away)
hasty kernel
Get enough people behind it, and you hardly have much of a chocie
Much like you hardly have a choice on whether you put your game on steam or not
wide ember
social pressure huh?
hasty kernel
In a way
wide ember
wouldn't we become as evil as steam that way?
I thought the point have to give the devs a choice
a real one
hasty kernel
No because you explicitely avoid the profiteering and the power by an undeserving third party
Thats the point of breaking up the monopoly
The point of this idea is to replace the monopoly by a monopoly of the people (game devs in this case)
Essentially make it so the only people who can profit off of your game, are you yourself
wide ember
the basic "right to choice" is influenced by "pressure by authority", "pressure by majority," and "pressure by convenience"
steam has the advantage of first two, itch.io has the last one
hasty kernel
Anyway thats enough of wishful thinking
Now I need to figure out how to produce a proper game on my own despite my lacking artistic skill and non-existant composing skills
hasty kernel
Addendum: Without having to pay others
wide ember
that's just called being difficult and stubborn
you can maybe grind all your skills for ten years like the guy who did cave story
also, free music made for such end
I believe the first version of hatoful boyfriend used that
wide ember
is it that bad to compromise on your vision though?
hasty kernel
Rationally, no
That little ego-gremlin living in the back of my brain however would say "yes"
Anyway, maybe Ill just find some other people to work with eventually somehow
chilly briar
I read that as eco-gremlin and was like "nice, likes nature"
wide ember
"be eco-responsible, less devs means less transportation means less CO2 emission"
to be honest, it would be really cool if I could have a good medium sized business where I make enough money to buy opus cards with monthly pass instead for my employees, and have all the recycle bins that actually go into recycle
wise wolf
That is also true, you don't have much of a choice other that put the game on Steam etc. unless you are big enough so people follow you and you don't have to rely on people who only search Steam games.
wide ember
so, supergiant basically?
wide ember
hello charlotte then
hasty kernel
Id say legit big like whoever made Apex
wide ember
commonly owned model should not force exclusivity for the devs' sake
though giving the devs a viable choice of not to would be great
wise wolf
Well nobody forces exclusivity if you are a dev. You choose who you take money from.
wide ember
because we always have a choice, it's more a matter of viability of that choice
the publisher decides on exclusivity because they deem that more monetizable
for the devs though, it's a matter of viability
it is not a matter of viability for the publisher if they are big enough, and they often are
there's a reason why hatoful boyfriend was initially released on a website that was 98% nsfw games
wise wolf
But as a dev studio you choose the publisher, or if you even have one.
And nobody will give you money if they aren't sure that they will gain from it.
Well, not completely right what I've said
Nobody will make a blind bet.
But will make a bet if the odds are good enough and losing won't be too disastrous
wide ember
I'm pretty sure that we have cashews as common snack thanks to a successful blind bet, same with tomatoes
the guy who ate tomatoes legit thought he was probably going to die
but yes, normal people want to make sure that losing won't lead to something disastrous
and today, that's why you register your business
even if it's a small studio
so if the studio declares bankrupt, you don't go bankrupt
wise wolf
I think the collective might be worth considering if similarly sized devs did it and all benefited from it and weren't in direct competition. But I wouldn't be able to imagine Blizzard and SGG and a random game dev being all in it.
wide ember
can you imagine a giant tuna swimming with tiny sardines
the tuna would feel off and don't belong and would also stress out the smaller fish
I think without saying anything they won't even think to join is my point
and even if you do ask them to join they would be a bit "why would I..."
the point of collective is small, growing studios gathering together
wise wolf
Ah right, I suppose I misunderstood x)
I thought the idea behind it was a big collective involving like everyone. Which was weird to me
wide ember
uno and I probably have different ideas of how this collective should be
I think it's about giving a real viable choice to those who need and deserve it
and in my model, if a big studio joins, it could be a double-edged sword because pro: it would lure in more customers buying the games and con: they could potentially spend all the attention and lead to the small studios of the same pool being ignored
due to the contrast of quality
so mine is really a equity-oriented collective for the growing studios to work their wings before having a choice to join another, and also be able to amass enough revenue to be sustainable
hasty kernel
I do think it would involve everyone. Which isnt to say that competition would cease to exist
But people would find neutral ground for competition
Yknow, like the IMF, or any other kind of international regulations
Might be wishful thinking though, the only kind of international law Im fairly familiar with is rules of warfare
wide ember
what school did you even go to
wide ember
don't schools usually balance out the things students learn, like have the bombs training and young business training being in alternating weeks
so even if you have X interest in free time you still learn about Y
wise wolf
Alright, I admit that I'm unable to argue for or against here since I lack the exact knowledge of how economy works.
wide ember
and rules of warfare and rules of business are pretty similar in many aspects
scorched earth, for example
hasty kernel
Well so do I, hence why I said it might be wishful thinking
I mostly know rules of warfare in terms of what you cant do
Yknow, the geneva conventions
wide ember
it's like that in business too
when best buy bought future shop, they weren't allowed to torture the future shop employees
wise wolf
All rules in general work only as long as it is beneficial for you to follow them.
That is, if there is anyone who can punish you after you break them.
wide ember
they had to keep them, but what they could do was to build a best buy next to each future shop, drain the sales from them, and close the future shop
malicious purchase (translation?) is when you purchase a competition and force it to close (under your management, and intentionally so)
but even when doing that, the employees of the purchased business (hostages?) cannot all be fired, and cannot be abused in anyway directly, etc.
nobody will punish you for anything, it's just really bad form if you mass fire people when you shouldn't or manage badly
what you get instead is avoidance by both customers and employees, which is I guess still a negative punishment
autumn pasture
well. i'm pretty sure if best buy had tortured them, the government would have punished them. 
wide ember
not if they lied about it, I mean look at amazon
hasty kernel
I mean sometimes rules work simply because people follow them because its the right thing to do
wide ember
for normal people, the biggest punishment is knowing that you've done something bad
and it's rewarding to know that you've done good
wise wolf
we could get into the large discussion of what "the right thing to do" is
so let's not do that lol
wide ember
corporate personhood though... it's only legally a person, so there's a distance between the person behind it and the person receiving it
it's very easy to do something bad and punish or kill the corporate person while the minds behind such acts just leave and start it over
not only that, it's not illegal to kill a corporate personhood
you can kill as many businesses as you like, no one is going to hold you account for murder
faint panther
Nor will you be held responsible for the lives ruined in the process.
wide ember
thank you, that's my point
wise wolf
Oh right, but that's a good comparison
in business, you are allowed to kill your competition, not with actual violence of course
wide ember
that wasn't a bad thought, what you've deleted
you won't actually physically die from it, but your life, or lifestyle, will
wise wolf
I've realized that "lives ruined in the process" can be employees who lost jobs, which was going against it
wide ember
that's a big part of it
and in a small business, the owner is also an employee who can easily have their ruined from losing that business, because they were the ones who put money into it
the employees lose a source of income and will have a harder life for it, and the owners will have lost their investment
wise wolf
Ah yeah, but they chose to run a business with the risk. The employee isn't responsible for company decisions which led him to lose his job. Or for company competition.
wide ember
and if they live in the same building as the store and it was bought together under the business's name, then the owners have just become homeless
wise wolf
What is it when it's done? 👀
wide ember
so this UI is inspired by the current nintendo switch UI?
fringe sparrow
not much , current UI for consoles are similar for each Xbox , nintendo and Sony. With a fact that Ms likes to put many Ads into homescreen
but a little
wise wolf
To previous convo: One of the problems here is, common morals kinda contradict any kind of competition. Because competition means someone loses and they're gonna feel bad and etc...
What I mean is, introducing morals into the debate is always asking for trouble, because if you want to follow morals rigidly, you can't do anything against anyone. Which is not how the world works. I sort of find it the tragedy of humanity, that humans deeply care about feelings and morals etc., while nature (and the business world) are mostly ruthless. Not cruel. They don't care.
To UI: might flip the battery to be vertical?
wide ember
how about making the UI vertical instead of horizontal?
wise wolf
Alternatively you could make the wifi icon a bit wider
wide ember
take advantage of the four free corners
I said vertical, but more like radiating light like?
ovals?
wise wolf
What exactly are things in the middle and the bottom center?
wide ember
I don't know how to verbalize that, but basically having curved lines in the UI as well, because straight lines in a round console feels off
(previous convo though, I'm pretty sure that's not how morals work)
(but everybody hates a moral philosophy professor, so)
wide ember
(the point is, morals don't mean you can't do anything, it means that when you do something you are perfectly aware of the consequences and willing to shoulder them)
(otherwise we'd be like Chidi or that Canadian, unable to make any choice in fear of having a immoral consequence to it)
and my point was less about morality and more about good and bad of the ecology anyway
wise wolf
I'll abandon the word morals and put it this way: once you start competing, you will hurt someone('s feelings). How much depends on how big the game is.
wide ember
I don't care about feelings, I'll be brutal if that's the only things in play
they won't care about my feelings either
I will care if it leads to homelessness, depression, divorces and worse
wise wolf
Ofc. That's why I put the feelings in a parenthesis.
wide ember
I won't care if the feelings are "but I'm the one who is supposed to get all the money, how dare you stand in my way"
I will care if the "feelings" are: "I'm going to be homeless and unable to feed my family if this business fails"
wise wolf
that's not what I meant by feelings
wide ember
and I will care if the "feelings" are: "I now have no choice but to work in horrible conditions to sustain my family/myself from now on"
wise wolf
that's a serious hurt
wide ember
exactly
shallow feelings are things that businessmen must discard
dreams are to be put away as well
there are only goals, and many lines and standards and rules
goals such as "I need to make X value in sales by Y"
wise wolf
I mean, I think they discard even the other stuff we've mentioned. As I've said, it's not even being cruel. It's being careless.
Employees are going to get hit. Arguably you wouldn't be able to do anything against another company if you cared about the other company's employees.
wide ember
lines and standards and rules as in "I can't fire this person for getting a surgery"
ha, that's why we hire the other company's employees when they go down
after interviewing them of course
it's how we eat in business
wise wolf
Well, I think you often hire them because they might be valuable, not because you care.
That doesn't mean it's not beneficial for both sides.