history

[shrewd pecan]

I mean we could ask

[frigid karma]

especially with that new thing in #server-news

[frigid karma]

lol, lmao

[shrewd pecan]

just ask teah

[frigid karma]

sanglune asked of the mods what was considered off topic and they basically told him it was whatever they felt it was

so

[manic latch]

Like

There is 20 year rule

Yet war on Afghanistan start 20 years ago

Oh well

See you guys in 2042

[frigid karma]

yeah but it ended 1 year ago

enough reason for the mods, ig

[shrewd pecan]

again I feel like its something we should probably ask to have clarified

[manic latch]

@humble mulch Yo tea

Can we speak about War in Afghanistan

[shrewd pecan]

since you know there's something to debate about if two mods conflict each other

[rapid junco]

@manic latch

[manic latch]

Little one

[exotic scarab]

Soon I'll be able to talk about remelia scarlet

[manic latch]

I just want more published Sovetksy Soyuz files from Russian archive

At least they are slowly doing it

We just learned Fifth sister would be named Sovetskaya Gruziya in 2021

[rapid junco]

I remember of seeing one on the game "Men of War: Red Tide"

[strong plank]

I mean about Afghanistan

I’d assume it’s fine as long as we’re not talking about the really recent stuff

[shrewd pecan]

guess we'll have to see what Teah says

it's a conflict that lasted almost long if not longer than most of us here have been alive

so its in a weird grey zone due to how long its gone on

[manic latch]

Speaking of. What was the longest "action" war of history

Thirty year war?

[shrewd pecan]

idk

honestly in regards to history I find recent or contemporary history more interesting

[manic latch]

Yeah it's more detailed

[shrewd pecan]

since I find that what happened 10-40 years ago is the most often overlooked

like its crazy to me how much people don't know about major events that happened only 6-10 years ago that they lived through

[humble mulch]

Yeah you guys can talk about the afghan Soviet war as long as there are little to no direct correlations made to irl events and modern politics, same goes for most other wars

[tender monolith]

https://twitter.com/galopujacy_jez/status/1545435885671432192

maks (@galopujacy_jez)

Some incredible footage of the Caspian Sea Monster - an experimental ground effect vehicle tested by the Soviet Navy from 1966 to 1980, when it crashed and sunk in the Caspian Sea.

It was the world’s heaviest aircraft until the An-225 Mriya first flew in 1988.

Likes

1458

Retweets

362

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jul 8, 2022, 3:53 PM

this is actually really cool even if the plane in question looks like a fucking hammerhead shark

[somber knoll]

continuous or episodic? for the latter it can be argued between the Hundred Years War and the Crusades in the West (the former is considered part of the way longer Anglo-Frankish conflict which only ended in 1815, same year as the Battle of Waterloo, starting all the way from the first Frankish invasion of England in 1109), but there's also the Three Kingdoms era, (the Jin Dynasty only unified the Chinese Mainland circa 280 AD, more than eighty years of constant warfare between the warlords), The Reconquista (thing lasted for seven centuries if you do the math of the countless battles), Roman-Persian conflict (started pre-Julius Caesar, ended circa Heraclius) and the Roman-Germanic one (started around 113 BC and ended right before the Golden Era of the Caliphates, which was "convenient" or beneficiary for the Arabs depending on how you look at it)

for the former, Thirty Years War may count, but you can also check the Dutch 335 war (only ended in 1986 after a threat of proxy war backed down the Frisians), and the Circassian war (or rather the Circassian slaughter because the Russian invaders just colonised Circassia and just kept manhandling the natives' resistance)

[frigid karma]

no, we're talking about the us occupation of afghanistan

[frigid karma]

"even if"?

[humble mulch]

Again as long as you don't go into modern politics and what not regarding the war as they are still beyond fucking relevant, I will do Mt best to make sure you aren't nailed ti a fucking cross

I don't wanna see any fucking "no wmds in Iraq, 9/11 conspiracies, blah blah Biden pulled out reeee" etc etc etc

I'd assume most of us are adults and know how to have the conversation here in a civilized manner, otherwise we all know where to go for shit throwing that won't result in being eaten by a fish or brewed in tea

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/552788046161117184/981922992571432980/romania.gif

[humble mulch]

Works cause I'm a Romanian shill
But yeah just don't break rules or tie it to modern politics. Anything regarding it post 2020 is probably beyond off limits and post 2016 is very dogey as those 4 years are beyond politically charged with the war

[somber knoll]

Transylvania is based.

[humble mulch]

So anyone looking at the mods will just see politics and not understand the context if any

[shrewd pecan]

so if we avoid the politics of it

[tough quail]

oh but you see

[humble mulch]

Then it's 100% A Okay and I will do everything in my power to make sure those who aren't in the wrong do not get in trouble.

[tough quail]

the basis of the shenanigans in crimea started in the 50s when crimea was shifted into the ukrainian SSR

so it's all actually very old history

🧠

[shrewd pecan]

👍 yeah all we really mentioned that the withdrawal broke the camels back after like two decades of failure but didn’t dive into the politics of the withdrawal

[humble mulch]

That's fine just don't talk about how those problems have evolved in the in the 21st century

But yeah that's all good Tato

[tough quail]

is shitpost, but yeah

[humble mulch]

[exotic scarab]

our entire planet is a shitpost

[shrewd pecan]

god the -current modern event- shit

[exotic scarab]

you mean to tell me brandenburg which was a mid tier duchy at best managed to unite germany

[humble mulch]

Someone should have stopped them

[tough quail]

it is pretty mid to essentially orchestrate the downfall of europe like that

[exotic scarab]

It was mostly swamps

Looking at medevial Germany you'd expect like Bavaria or one of the trade leagues to come on top

How did Brandenburg even get to prussia size

[somber knoll]

Preussen Gloria intensifies
although, nup. even good ol Saxony couldn't keep up

[exotic scarab]

I mean yeah once they became king in prussia they became a serious power playwr

[strong plank]

I glanced at that and saw ‘Ukrainian SSR’

damn the meta be changing fast

[tough quail]

lmfao

NP gets a ukrainian side faction like vichy/iris

[exotic scarab]

you mean dragon empery

[frigid karma]

Does the existence of the DDGs and Harbin imply that China in AL is some super-advanced technological civilization that supplies the USSR with tech

[tender monolith]

i really wish i'd thought of that

[tough quail]

given the ussr had those guns in game first

no

[frigid karma]

and who do you think they got those guns from

horse your tankie powers are nothing against my nationalism powers

I can out-derange all of you

[tender monolith]

checks out

[ivory ridge]

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/448601471806603298/982785802574655558/ev3fvpx9to.gif

[manic latch]

Did the Brezhnev doctrine kept the Soviet Union together or was the reason it collapsed with Gorbachev?

Greatest mystery of Union

[frigid karma]

tbh it was already a shell of its former self when gorbie got in, brezhnev spent way too much on the military

[manic latch]

Passed United states during half of 1980

Yep...

Around 250 billion $ budget. Should be alot of money with today's inflation

Since Even China's current military budget is around 250 bil

And they are the second in world

[humble mulch]

See that's one thing that kinda bothers me

How do communist put so much money into military shit and making stuff
When it should be like
Free

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

[humble mulch]

You aren't paying workers

[shrewd pecan]

the issue with the Soviet system is that by the time it started over investing in the military

that's all it had left to invest in

the Soviets mainly got GDP growth from moving people from low production industries to high production industries

by the 80s its basically already industrialized everything

leaving the only remaining growth engine being military spending

from there everything just stagnated

[humble mulch]

My knowledge on this topic comes from Soviet workers and resources

[manic latch]

As Tato said most of the "production" gone for military

[humble mulch]

Just make a coal mine and export it and your communism will last longer than nazism

Yeah
I am just smooth brain

[shrewd pecan]

there wasn't really

anyone left to move into high production industries

without you know

completely butchering the soviet agricultural industry even more

[humble mulch]

The coal comment is a joke regarding the game

[shrewd pecan]

nah I've played the game

its interesting

idk regarding the Soviet economy

[humble mulch]

It really is I love it

Also same

[manic latch]

In the 1980s, the Soviet Union needed considerable sums of hard currency to pay for food and capital goods imports and to support client states. What the country could not earn from exports or gold sales it borrowed through its banks in London, Frankfurt, Vienna, Paris, and Luxembourg. Large grain imports pushed the Soviet debt quite high in 1981.

[humble mulch]

Cause it's still 100% capitalist due to trade

[shrewd pecan]

the other factor is the only thing Soviet government could do is put additional assets into production

[humble mulch]

You just can be self sufficient

[shrewd pecan]

since the system itself completely dissuades innovation in soviet industry

putting in new equipment causes pauses in production that managers don't want

at the same time the managers want to maximize input for minimum output to ensure they don't get their quotas raised

[manic latch]

84k T-34

In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union attempted to reduce its hard-currency debt by decreasing imports from the West and increasing oil and gas exports to the West

[tough quail]

that's not really true at all

at least as far as military equipment goes

[humble mulch]

One day winter won't fuck me over and I can make my mig-21 expo city state

[shrewd pecan]

I'm not talking about military equipment

that's a different ballpark

[tough quail]

the soviets were constantly churning in new shit

oh

right

[shrewd pecan]

I'm talking about why the Soviets stagnated

and were forced into investing heavily into the military

that was one of the few Soviet industries that actually innovated design wise

production wise of said equipment harder to say

since I can see why production would suffer the same issues while the designs themselves don't

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

idk Soviets had immense success early on with its industrialization

then failed to adapt, stagnated

then had to dump immense amount of resources into the Soviet military to get some type of growth

[shrewd pecan]

regarding actual money spending

harder to say

since a lot of those numbers are rough since its hard to translate into Soviet rubles

No one wanted Soviet rubles outside of the USSR and there's no good translation of soviet rubles into USD

so all you can do is roughly estimate dollar amounts from total input into the USSR's military industries

[manic latch]

This reminds me

Anti-dreadnought race propaganda

1911

[ivory ridge]

lmao

[exotic scarab]

what is it even propoganda against

having turrets?

[manic latch]

I just typed it

Against Dreadnoughts

Who suck up good ammount of money

And more gets build when others do it

@tough quail You know speaking of Soviet Union's collapse

Soyuz should get a mushroom skin

Few would get its meaning but would be a very cute detail

[frigid karma]

China didn’t even have any dreadnoughts

[manic latch]

You do want too much details from a propaganda poster of Puck

[gilded girder]

Das right. They skipped right to full on Battleship

[burnt haven]

There's an uncited anecdote about how the ROC wanted to build carriers during the interwar period.

But
a) Wikipedia actually says it was after the war (with no citation ofc)
b) sounds like a heavy huffing of hopium
and c) it would be pretty stupid to have carriers without an aeronautics industry

[frigid karma]

what are cardiers

are they carriers with a d

[burnt haven]

[shrewd pecan]

darriers

[dusty kraken]

Cardiers are ships that launch cards

[exotic scarab]

No

We already have plane touhou and it has left a impression on me

[frigid karma]

doesn't hiryuu launch cards

[humble mulch]

She does

As does soryu and I think another

Foxes also have flaming cards iirc

[undone remnant]

Is this a propaganda poster with a battleship (that they don't have) in an era where battleships aren't needed

lol

[spiral cedar]

To be fair, US propaganda posters would probably include a dude with a musket

[maiden citrus]

well yeah gotta beat up some redcoats

[undone remnant]

jsdf propaganda

[desert agate]

Best propaganda poster ever

Kaisermania

[maiden citrus]

shamefur dispray

[desert agate]

Proud citizen of Tirpitzburg

[eternal veldt]

Hit lives in Tirpitzburg

[desert agate]

Glory to the kaiser God and fatherland

[frigid karma]

Hit has been consumed by the kaiserboos

A fate worse than the wehraboos

[desert agate]

Feel sorry for Nietsche getting the same city with Bankstown in it

[frigid karma]

Because at least wehraboos have hot uniformed girls

[desert agate]

Wdym bro seydlitz is hot

[frigid karma]

Seydlitz is cringe

[desert agate]

Death

https://tenor.com/view/twitter-gif-23330288

[frigid karma]

I mean tirpitz uniform is 👌

Along with zeppelin

[desert agate]

That's why I'm proud to live in tirpitzburg

[maiden citrus]

kaiserboo uniforms > wehrb uniforms

[desert agate]

Based maka

[maiden citrus]

kaiser ships >>>>> kriegsmarine ships

it's as shrimple as that

[frigid karma]

Wehrb uniforms are better though

You don’t have that cringy ass spike

[spiral cedar]

Han dynasty infantry panoply > kaiserboob uniforms

[desert agate]

Kaiserboob

[frigid karma]

Indeed

[desert agate]

What cup was Wilhelm II?

[spiral cedar]

D for Deutschland

[maiden citrus]

pretty small

[spiral cedar]

Not everyone can eat beef on a daily basis

[maiden citrus]

true

[desert agate]

They didn't have hot dogs in 1914 Berlin

[spiral cedar]

A deprived people

[maiden citrus]

meanwhile the us in 1906

[desert agate]

Thank God for the war liberating them from their sorrows

[maiden citrus]

no wonder they lost

[frigid karma]

British ships let all cargo ships through except the ones with hot dogs

Truly a cruel blockade

[maiden citrus]

a fate worse then death

you see, that's torture, keeping them alive but in suffering

blocking all food at least provides a way out

[manic latch]

Capital as Leninberra

[undone remnant]

:o

I refuse to believe someone could not like Lützow

[desert agate]

a 5 year old could have drawn a better communist flag

[manic latch]

Show me

I'm interested

[undone remnant]

I'm scared of a 5 year old that has an understanding of communism

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1548585233544613888?t=N4LF5d9fTzrnO1PZatcVNg&s=19

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

Not many people know this, but Italian Air Force operated also, 34 F16s Fighting Falcon for nine years.

Twitter · Jul 17, 2022, 8:27 AM

Only nation that used f-16s but doesnt anymore, other than norway which retired theirs earlies this year

[manic latch]

You guys leased them

11 years

Model 1600

Carrier based F-16

Lost to F-18

the Navy preferred a twin-engine aircraft, among other reasons

[undone remnant]

Does anyone know what the hull on the very bottom right is?

The two on the left is Prinz Eitel and Württemberg

[ivory ridge]

Greek battleship salamis

[spring briar]

Salamis my beloved

Though I liked the 3x2 14” version better

[undone remnant]

so must be

AG vulkan shipyard

[spring briar]

Yah

Hamburg port

[ivory ridge]

a simple reverse search would've given you the answer yes

[undone remnant]

asking is more fun

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

https://airpower.airforce.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-03/WP12-The-Australian-Aviation-Industry.pdf

Australia had a domestic aircraft manufacturing industry
before it had a domestic car manufacturing industry

[desert agate]

oh thats the RV Petral isnt it?

[unborn wyvern]

I think she is but the first one is....uhh not her

[desert agate]

obviously thats bismarck

[somber knoll]

RIP Holden

[desert agate]

Holden was still a saddle maker in the early 30s

they didnt start making cars until just before WW2 i believe

[somber knoll]

Yeh. Their first car was a 1948 model

[desert agate]

yeah

they developed heavy industry during the war though

they manufactured bofors 40mm guns among other things

[somber knoll]

Did your granddad have one of those Belmont panel vans?

[undone remnant]

That's on the musashi

[desert agate]

dont have too much connection with my aussie grand father lmfao

[undone remnant]

Oh I just noticed the first poster

[dapper parcel]

...and now they have none

[desert agate]

hey were making planes again

loyal wingman my beloved

the article i posted discusses the decline of Australias aviation industry in the 60s and beyond

[strong plank]

The fuck is a ttleship

[shrewd pecan]

we're making up new ship types by the day

cardier

ttleship

[ivory ridge]

so true

[tough quail]

https://i.imgur.com/oug8MgN.png

sanest us enjoyer

[manic latch]

If SU-76M was American then he would praise it non stop

[spiral cedar]

TTLESHIP?

[tough quail]

my favorite thing is that the same report literally says that everything mechanically works flawlessly and it's very precise and reliable

[unborn wyvern]

Yeah, it's clearly referencing the Arpeggio/Kancollle/Azur lane boat wife and her... uhh... assets

[tough quail]

it just has fuckawful offroad and it guzzles fuel like crazy

which literally everyone knows

All gun mechanisms worked flawlessly and had no defects.

The vehicle is reliable. No components or mechanisms of the vehicle broke during trials.

The adjustment mechanisms for the brakes and gearbox are convenient, and allow for easy adjustments.

Replacing components (engine and transmission) is possible in field conditions, due to available hatches.```

da it sucks

[manic latch]

[maiden citrus]

they badmouthed it so hard that they flipped around to loving it

[tough quail]

http://www.tankarchives.ca/2014/03/lend-lease-impressions-m18-hellcat.html

for the whole thing

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

introducing the cost-effective version of the battleship

the littleship

[tough quail]

lidlship

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/992268199569674250/Untitled.gif

[spiral cedar]

Did you know that British fire control computers stop working on targets moving at 30 knots

[tough quail]

i think the more pressing matter is

bismarck

not dying to a nelson

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm suspicious

[humble mulch]

I don’t recall the home fleet running out of fuel

When killing Bismarck

[spiral cedar]

[shrewd pecan]

at somepoint we need to make a compilation of crappy ship bucket ships of our made up ship classes

[humble mulch]

I feel like half would just be bricks of 25” armor from UAD

[dapper parcel]

Imagine the advancement of naval warfare doctrine if UAD allows for full free designs

[spiral cedar]

100 meter draft

Another thing to note is that Rodney is not gonna be in a good postition if Bismark our flanks her.

[exotic scarab]

Ah yes

The game I managed to lag by putting to many guns on a ship

[spiral cedar]

L turret going mortar

[exotic scarab]

Why don't they do that

Make ships designed to fire forwards instead of sideways

[spiral cedar]

Because, in part, rapidly changing range rates messes up your own gunnery too

It comes down to armor and marksmanship. The Germans had the edge in both. Any ship in WWII until the American Iowa Class or the Yamato would have been crazy to take on the Bismark one on one.

[exotic scarab]

I mean yeah

Taking on any battleship alone sounds crazy unless your in a battleship (or whatever a battlcruiser is)

[desert agate]

mutsu?

[frigid karma]

ever heard of "crossing the T"?

[exotic scarab]

Yeah

[frigid karma]

it's not something a wows player would tell you

[exotic scarab]

Its what the eniment domain did

[humble mulch]

Lol

[exotic scarab]

Despite saying it's not a good idea

[frigid karma]

Any ship that has concentrated firepower in the front did not do it to bow tank or whatever

it's to save on machinery space

[humble mulch]

Well they were running a blockade basically

So they had no other choice

[frigid karma]

(which makes counterflooding a bitch so it was canceled)

[exotic scarab]

Something about taking it on headon

[frigid karma]

Can't believe we didn't build a Battleship that has no armament, but is extremely heavily armored and quick to facilitate easy boarding actions

[exotic scarab]

Please

I'll fund it

[frigid karma]

the average sailor isn't trained in hand to hand combat anymore, so we just remove NJ superstructure and guns and give her a fuck ton more armor and 16 extra boilers, then fill it full of marines

even better

idea

We make the yorktowns all carry B-25s with like 30 guys in parachutes

can't go wrong

[exotic scarab]

That's not the question in reverse

That's the same question

[frigid karma]

ok but quoraposting is boring now

give us actual non-bismarck content

some weeaboo delusions, perhaps?

[exotic scarab]

Gimme cray middle ages posting

Some stuff about how they "thought the earth was flat" despite manuscripts showing a globe

[spiral cedar]

Speed+fire rate+practically one inch lower in shell caliber+ ability to out flank+L+ratio+fell off

[exotic scarab]

And the only reason they didn't sail west was because they thought it was just open ocean to india

[desert agate]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/989644231276650537/image0.gif

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[exotic scarab]

Bismarck is a hot anime waifu

[frigid karma]

wait he cites lower caliber as an ADVANTAGE?

[spiral cedar]

Apparently?

[frigid karma]

the sheer cope

i can't even

exquisite, jaba

[frigid karma]

outstanding

i hate germany i hate germany i hate germany i hate germany i hate germany i hate germanyi hate germany i hate germanyi hate germany i hate germanyi hate germany i hate germany i hate germany i hate germany

[exotic scarab]

[spiral cedar]

“How many wrong things can I say in one wall of text contest”

[exotic scarab]

I don't hate Germany

I just think of all their branches the navy was the worst in ww2

[spiral cedar]

ROCN

[exotic scarab]

In terms of quality that is the ss was the worst in terms of well

Being everything

[spiral cedar]

10 Bismarcks for 1 Montana

[exotic scarab]

I mean then it's simple math

Who would win 10 Graf zeppelin or one enterprise

[frigid karma]

the scrapyard

[humble mulch]

Are the Graf zeppelins sitting in dock with no planes and still under construction

Cause I thing a squad of Lancaster would win against that

[exotic scarab]

[spiral cedar]

Not enough time hanging out with the Boise clearly

[tough quail]

"there was never a question of whether or not the crew of Hood sank themselves or not.."

[spiral cedar]

Normally that is a good thing

[tough quail]

and yet so utterly callous

words uttered by someone who really deserves to be riddled with .303 british

[spiral cedar]

More 14" British

[tough quail]

true

[humble mulch]

Yeah bro the Hoods captain, having extensive knowledge of British flash fires, definitely decided that this was the best course of action to scuttle the ship then to let it be lost to the Germans

Sounds as utterly deranged as any werbh fucks talking about Bismarck

[undone remnant]

I'm not sure about hood but that ammunition handling part happened at Jutland

[spiral cedar]

It is not true of Hood

[undone remnant]

Especially

You'd think 15 years later

They still don't have any anti flash measures ?

or according to the post "ignored by the captain"

Yeah what a silly man

[spiral cedar]

They had the antiflash systems at Jutland, Beatty just didn't stop his BC officers from bypassing them

[undone remnant]

Oh think I worded that wrong

measures weren't as

What's the word

[spiral cedar]

Enforced

[undone remnant]

yes

Compared to hipper's battlecruisers

[spiral cedar]

And even the Grand Fleet’s BBs

[undone remnant]

There's similar theories around Hood
But the writer basically saying it's the captain's decision?

[tough quail]

those theories are nonsense btw

[undone remnant]

Ic

I don't have my own opinions on which is right

so tell me about it

[spiral cedar]

Given the time delay between the salvo landing and the ship exploding, as well as the nature of British cordite propellant, it is likely that Bismarck’s APC shell struck either Hood’s 15” or 4” powder magazine, which then set off a rapid burn that ignited the 15” powder magazine, which could not relieve the pressure rapidly enough and eventually exploded, destroying the ship

Tirpitz is a Scharnhorst class, right?

gonna say no there champ

[maiden citrus]

sodak would part tirpitz like the red sea

[spiral cedar]

torpedo impacts are comparable to shell hits(??) = ship will detonate
26 shell hits leads to 0.75 deg list corrected within minutes = ship will capsize
Tirpitz invulnerable stahp asking questions
optics better than radar because German
some nonsense about missiles

[maiden citrus]

how does one write so much and all of it be nonsense

[spiral cedar]

It’s not all nonsense, just like 90% nonsense

Nuclear carriers have “Bismarck type protection”

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-funny-wtf-wth-jesse-gif-17336046

[spiral cedar]

Source: I said so

Radar was and is not accurate

[maiden citrus]

meanwhile late war usn ships literally playing wows due to radar advancement

this stuff is always fun to read because it's just so... bad lol

[spiral cedar]

Meanwhile, US ships reporting ranging on 16” splashes at over 30,000 yards

[maiden citrus]

even modern cruise ships use radar

[spiral cedar]

This person also outright denies that West Virginia hit Yamashiro

[maiden citrus]

next level cope

muh axis optics

muh axis armor

[spiral cedar]

Also claims that Kirishima took 406 mm shells “well”

[maiden citrus]

so well that it sank

meanwhile washington in return was... fine?

not sure you can bet on the direct ressistance tho

[spiral cedar]

In a true battle, Bismarck would have chased salvoes presenting an angle of about 45 degs with rotated turrettes, firing from above 20 km and hitting as with Hood (say 5% hits). There is little chance to hit a turret or anything designated. In this case fast 381 mm were preferable to slow 406 mm because of higher danger space and easier penetration and underwater damage.

Mm, yes, zig zag 45 deg course, which is totally what Bismarck actually did…right…?

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

The keys are the flying time of shells and changing route after each enemy salvo, as British and (good) Italians knew. This however reduces even your chances of hitting. Iowa fire exercises were held in the Mediterranean Sea (in coopperation with Italian Navy) at about 8 km on a towed target. Two full salvoes were fired after zeroing turrets (to mimic first-salvo operations) and the impacts were dispersed all around the target, which continued to float.

Yes, just ignore all the other gunnery exercises, like when North Carolina achieved a 5.1% hit rate at 32300 yards against a maneuvering ship at speed. Cherry picking (or inventing) one example is just dandy

[maiden citrus]

us ships doing full donuts while staying on target

'I'm going to ignore that'

[spiral cedar]

In rough seas it was extremely difficult to point without stabilized guns that never existed in heavy calibers.

laughs in full RPC for 16” turrets
(though you’d rely more on stable verticals for heavy seas anyway, and guess who has the best ones)

The battle of Savo was very, very lucky for the US. If Japanese saw Washington at that distance, it would have been dead meat for Long Lances, followed by undefended South Dakota. One hit of a 610 mm and the ship would have been lost to other 1–2 hits. “Multiple” for cruisers means only one-two hits in very non critical areas. Many sank with one.

Mm, yes, US BBs would sink in 2-3 torps. Never mind that the cruisers took similar levels of punishment. Also, I like how USS Atlanta by her lonesome counts as “many” cruisers

But 24″ against SoDak would be extremely dangerous, Washington would have lost 1–2 turrets or half propulsion to each torpedo. One for mission kill, two for fate sealing and three to capsize.

Source: lmao

[spiral cedar]

The accounts of WW at Surigao are rather imprecise (first salvoes…) but the damage was poor against old wrecks (even for torpedoes!! They were not RN Mk 7–8… or the Italians).

“imprecise”
Also, one DD spread sinking a BB by itself = “even for torpedoes” against “old wrecks”

Claim of bad powder are unrealistic in the ‘90. The best straddles of modernized Iowas were normal for the class (1% of distance, worst case) and they had seemingly (in films…) a EO head with a lidar for each turret. The WW2 Italian Navy with selected projectiles had 0.8% (381), 1% (320 and 203 old) and aimed to 0.5%.

Let’s pretend all, like, 6 measures of dispersion are all the same measurement so I can pretend all numbers are directly comparable I bet the man’s never even heard of TMD

In the ’90 Italians could have done far better than Iowas, especially with a lidar (much better than radar..).

Ah yes, all those 1990 Italian battleships…

[maiden citrus]

even atlantas are recorded to have taken long lances and survived, juneau is famous precisely because she took two long lances in exactly the same place

should we tell him wash and sodak trashed the ijn dds too?

[spiral cedar]

Which analysis? The efficiency of Japanese gunnery was maybe better than the US one.
Nikkon Kogaku against Barr and Stroud is a one sided match (even today….)
US successes were in planned engagements with surprise and absolute dominance. Certainly at Taffy 3 the Japanese battleships could have done better, but the enemy was zig-zagging as hell. There was a poor shooting tactic. If you compare the resistance of Japanese big ships to puny US destroyer attacks with that, for instance, of Littorio at 2nd Sirte or by the Twins against Glorious and other cases, there is a problem, but it is a single case of a fleet that was losing its training and ability.

Man, this guy is on a roll…

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

“US successes were when they fought better”

“Bad performance is an outlier that can be excluded when I want to, but also can be an example for an entire navy when I decide so”

[frigid karma]

What too much KC does to a mfer

[maiden citrus]

should we tell him the ijn brought many more ships to midway and still got trashed

[frigid karma]

Someone told me midway didn’t count as a fair American win because the Americans knew they were coming

[maiden citrus]

the planned engagement of being invaded, and the absolute dominance of the japanese bringing an extra carrier, 2 battleships and 2 heavy cruisers surplus and dying

[spiral cedar]

(same guy as all the rest btw)
Brilliant ideas: fight Yamato at 39000-42000 km with Littorios

[ivory ridge]

the 3000 black Littorios of Andreotti

[spiral cedar]

of course

[maiden citrus]

how are you going to hit anything

[ivory ridge]

this but unironically

[maiden citrus]

☠️

[frigid karma]

Prayer

[spiral cedar]

With HE, probably, given the Littorios only carry about 70 rounds of APC per gun

[frigid karma]

Does littorio have 4.2 million meters of range

Undie that’s a stretch

Space littorio?

[spiral cedar]

Littorio had a “digital” (sampled) FCS, by itsel more accurate than Yamato and (any) other battleships.

[frigid karma]

I mean I know littorio has good range on her guns, 39000 km is feasible but I don’t really see her range extending to 42000 km

[ivory ridge]

what now

[tough quail]

it's rare i see someone claiming littorio is MORE accurate than she actually is

[frigid karma]

That’s clearly not Roma

It doesn’t have the beer can

[maiden citrus]

just fire at 42km bro

[frigid karma]

Uh, maka

We’re talking ranges of 4.2 million meters here

[maiden citrus]

nvm that the longest range hit is like

26km

[frigid karma]

What the hell is a million meters anyway

Megameter?

[ivory ridge]

apparently

[tough quail]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496918166031564802/863819601782767636/bukiroll_1.0.010ms.1.gif

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

[maiden citrus]

I've always wondered why people think the maximum range of a gun has anything to do with the actual hit ability

[spiral cedar]

8. At 2327 on 30 November, 1942 MINNEAPOLIS, while participating In the battle of Lunga Point, was struck on the port side by two torpedoes. Both detonated almost simultaneously. One hit just forward of No. I turret and the other in way of No. 2 fireroom.

[frigid karma]

I need to stop

[maiden citrus]

like alright go outside and hit a deer a mile away with your rifle

what, the bullet can go that far, just get good

[ivory ridge]

but did she survive?

[frigid karma]

Quora posting is a highly addictive and dangerous activity

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[ivory ridge]

checkmate atheists

[frigid karma]

If she’s dead why is she speaking to me in an anime game

Checkmate Italian

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-the-voices-hallucinations-gif-24630735

[undone remnant]

Minneapolis

[frigid karma]

Question

[maiden citrus]

the strangest person to be forced to see second hand cringe at overwank

[frigid karma]

have land-based B-29s during latewar ever sink any ships

[maiden citrus]

unde at littorio overwank

[undone remnant]

At the battle where us heavy cruisers experience having their bow fall off

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[undone remnant]

or folded

[spiral cedar]

Through sea mines

[frigid karma]

oh

only sea mines?

[spiral cedar]

afaik

Can ask @chilly flower for more

[ivory ridge]

I love and hate how someone called this a "Loli Fremm"

corvette

[spiral cedar]

Remember kids, the Mark 3 FC radar was British, not American. Also, what does the origin of the radar that have to do with its efficacy at night?

[frigid karma]

starshelled

a fate worse than being sunk

[spiral cedar]

“The vitals are immune because of fuze initiation. Never mind that Scharnhorst’s vitals were evidently not immune in the very diagram I’m referencing.”

Also, radar = nukes?

[frigid karma]

jaba you need to stop

for your sake and for ours

this is literal torture to my soul

[spiral cedar]

“Tirpitz would have charged at Washington to fight at close range”

Meanwhile actual Kriegsmarine fighting instructions: “Fight at as long of a range as possible”

[maiden citrus]

meanwhile the british came over to share radar secrets and were just amazed when the us was like

'we already have that'

[frigid karma]

jaba stop please

at least post something not german

[maiden citrus]

advanced stupid

[exotic scarab]

is it just ww2 and naval quroa thats crazy

[exotic scarab]

or are the other history parts bad

[manic latch]

Like Gremyashchy class 'corvette'

[exotic scarab]

[exotic scarab]

"most powerful tank ever built"

[humble mulch]

Jaba wtf lmao

[exotic scarab]

im sorry but I dont think the best ww2 tank could even stand agaisnt tanks deployed by most first world countries today

[maiden citrus]

not at all, yeah

abrams vs tiger would be absolutely comical

could probably win a 1v10 or something ridiculous

[frigid karma]

it would probably be enemy at the gates scenario

[ivory ridge]

wows moment

[maiden citrus]

washington turret faces immune to bismarck guns at like 6km

[ivory ridge]

just dont aim at the turrets then

[maiden citrus]

meme moment

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

It should still pen Abrams from side right

[spiral cedar]

@spring briar

Ben Lim at it again

[manic latch]

Bigger number = better

[frigid karma]

i'm pretty sure a Mk I British tank with the 57mm could pen its side

that's just modern tanks

[ivory ridge]

the famous 16 inch bismarck with more than 8 guns

[frigid karma]

||or most tanks in general||

gascan better armed than richelieu

[spiral cedar]

And lighter caliber(?)

[frigid karma]

jaba please

do you take some sick, deranged pleasure in watching us shrivel and die at reading these quoraposts

[maiden citrus]

doubt it actually considering what it's protected against

[humble mulch]

Yeah the Abrams also is able to move fast

[frigid karma]

Quick question

if you have something moving really fast

[maiden citrus]

while it's overall classified this is a tank that you could put the muzzle of a tiger against any part of the known frontal plate capabilities and it would tink off

[humble mulch]

Just zoom around and it literally is gonna die before it can zero you in and fire

[frigid karma]

does it increase the amount of armor the shell needs to pen

[manic latch]

Hmmm. Can you fuck the barrel up with 88mm HE I wonder

[humble mulch]

You'd still have to hit it

[manic latch]

Yeah..

[humble mulch]

Fuck an SU-76 would have a good time with a maus
Fucking spg moment

[manic latch]

Bigger wonder

Can KV-2's 152mm blow up Abrams

[ivory ridge]

i doubt your doubt, most modern tanks really dont have much armor on the sides, even if the abrams is one of the more protected there it would be hard to withstand a tiger shell

[frigid karma]

i think there's sufficient frontal protection to prevent too much spalling from a 6 inch HE

sides? ehh, probably not

[manic latch]

24" (61 cm) Experimental Gun made from 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 6 gun barrel

Hold up

Isn't this is a naval cannon then?

If it's made from 406mm Mark 6

So while Germans had the 533mm. Americans had the 610mm

[humble mulch]

Where was it found?

Seems like a weird thing to just ditch in a forest

[manic latch]

Dahlgren

[manic latch]

I am sure a thief can carry it away and build a working cannon with its ammo later

[humble mulch]

Well I mean like they could scrap it

I just assume that's what you do

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586216580463984650/998368670327779420/unknown.png

[exotic scarab]

wait

if bismarck was in the med why didnt italy help them

italy really being a L wingman

[strong plank]

Bismarck wasn’t in the Med?

[exotic scarab]

this random internet bloke who worked at a museum says otherwise

[exotic scarab]

[strong plank]

Now I’m no geography expert

[exotic scarab]

you didnt work for "a german museum"

[burnt haven]

That's where the Med gets it's water so it's basically the Med

[chilly flower]

A good, if (comparatively) short pdf covering Operation Starvation, the mine-laying operation targeting shipping

[tough quail]

oh hey pretz

[chilly flower]

[alpine onyx]

I don't think that assessment is quite accurate, German fighting instructions very rarely ended up recommending a snipe engagement

This for example is what they considered the optimal engagement range and shell selection if a Bismarck class faced an R-class

[frigid karma]

TL?

[alpine onyx]

Paraphrased, 12-18km as main fighting distance, own ship angle of ~20°, only the barbettes are vulnerable to the British shells while estimated impact on the opponent is good. Exceeding or lowering the MFD would result in roundabout equal impact on each other.

Shell selection obv APC, unlike Nelsol however the usage of nose fuzed HE is not recommended because more armored surfaces

Scharnhorst vs Hood includes a sniping recommendation. Paraphrased again the ugly sis is to either fight below 14km at 30-40° ship angle to hope for barbette hits or to fight at 20km or more and abuse her theoretically higher shell output to spam for hits

[spiral cedar]

make a booklet

[alpine onyx]

Can do so maybe tomorrow

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Holy Fuck

New Tempest configuration FarnboroughAirShow

This does look like Japanese F-X + Tempest

So the collab is likely legit now

[fierce sparrow]

Tempest...

[manic latch]

Both British and Japan really wants a Sixth Gen fighter. While it may take more than 2 decades I believe they will make something

Tho not sure if it will end up a Fifth gen fighter instead in the end

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA7V-33DQ2k

Oh my, Rare Mosin...

[manic latch]

[remote monolith]

@desert agate https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-15/dinosaur-teeth-discovery-outback-queensland/101237172

wakey wakey, more Aussie dinos

[manic latch]

@spring briar So one of the proposed names for PANG is Cardinal Richelieu?

[spring briar]

So it seems

[manic latch]

She will be the largest warship ever build in Europe

[fierce sparrow]

more dinosaurs ehh?

[manic latch]

Ah July 18

Mein Kampf was published(1925) and Great fire of Rome(64) happened

And Ironically, it's also the day Edward I signed a decree expelling the Jews from England(1290)

[spring briar]

K

@rapid junco

[maiden citrus]

cute

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

[rapid junco]

Gonna repeat the joke i made on Drach's server

[rapid junco]

"When you're appointed to be the minister of the navy for the 3rd time"

[spring briar]

Kek

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Only 2 Emals huh

But. Type 003/Fujian also had 2 EMALS at first. Later turned to 3

[spring briar]

Magnifique

[manic latch]

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/07/15/vice-admiral-and-two-dozen-others-punished-for-uss-bonhomme-richard-fire/

“Losing Bonhomme Richard to this fire was preventable,” Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. William Lescher said in a statement Friday. “We are making significant changes in the way the Navy learns and leads so that this does not happen again.”

[frigid karma]

article mostly boils down to he said she said

or rather, he said he said he said

[manic latch]

Kinda interesting still

First page of report to Vice Admiral

[frigid karma]

does britain have any 12" supercruiser designs?

[manic latch]

In 1939 DNC (Director of Naval Constructions asked an Alaska like Large Cruiser based on the calculations the previous year. DNC asked for six 12" cannons in twin turrets on 20.000tons with 7" belt and 3" deck armour. Not much serious work was done but the hull size was based on the 3x3 9,2" cruiser the previous February.

Art is done by Tzoli. So no offical blueprint is out or known

More serious designs of British for "Large/heavy" cruisers were between 234mm and 203mm

@spring briar

Yeah should give some challenge to Turkey's Ada class corvettes

[spring briar]

Neat

[humble mulch]

Didn’t Turkey change there name

[manic latch]

All four ships of the series, TCG Heybeliada, TCG Büyükada, TCG Burgazada and TCG Kınalıada were built by the Istanbul Naval Shipyard Command

They all have Ada in their names. So should still be Ada class

[chilly osprey]

A challenge to the Ada-class?

The Ada-class aren't even in the same league as the FDI

They're only ~2,400-ton corvettes with some AShMs and limited defensive capabilities

[ivory ridge]

can i just say that i discovered earlier how the VLS in the Musherib class are set up and i find it incredibly cute
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/754162364718514226/998648726883147776/unknown.png

[chilly osprey]

XD

[maiden citrus]

it's blessed

[ivory ridge]

Im in love with both classes of ships built by fincantieri for Qatar

Mini Fremm and pocket frigate

[chilly osprey]

The Doha's could end up being indicative of what the EPC looks like

[ivory ridge]

tfe the doha class is more armed than the next german destroyer

(only half joking)

[chilly osprey]

I'm running under the assumption that they'll remember to put VLS cells on the F127's, but only time will tell :p

[ivory ridge]

what

[chilly osprey]

Ok wow that is ugly

Though I don't think any official renders have been put out yet

They're still a very long way off

[ivory ridge]

that is official but well, not finalized

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/hg7uti/1920x1080_new_german_aawfrigate_f127class/

You might have missed the VLS on the F125 and also a few on the F126, well they seem to be going on the F127 (the amount is not yet specified).

lmao

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, that would definitely have to be very far from finalized. As far as I understand the project is still in very early stages

[humble mulch]

Oh no I meant turkey changing their own name to something that's not a bird, can't remember how they want it spelled now

[ivory ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684721152739770371/976869843724804146/unnamed_1.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684721152739770371/976869843984863272/maxresdefault_2.jpg

fake fuck my beloved

[manic latch]

Oh they want you to call it Turkiye

[humble mulch]

Does Italy use Ospreys?

[ivory ridge]

no

[manic latch]

Doesn't only Japan has Osprey

With Us

[ivory ridge]

yes

[manic latch]

What was the point of Osprey anyway

"functionality of a conventional helicopter with the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of a turboprop aircraft."

Fast helicopter smh

Soviet Osprey my beloved

[shrewd pecan]

Long range deployments

[manic latch]

Can't you do that with transport planes

[shrewd pecan]

No

[junior trench]

Osprey flies faster and farther than helos, with a larger payload than most helos

[shrewd pecan]

Transport planes can’t land on LHDs

[junior trench]

while still being able to take off land like a helo

if you can't see the use case for that

I dunno what to tell you

[manic latch]

Dunno man only Japan and US got it. Would expect British to get it

But they didn't

[junior trench]

the British are both broke and stupid

[manic latch]

F

[junior trench]

I've only recently come off dealing with an anglo cope squad trying to argue that "akshually Phalanx CIWS is a very valuable part of the Type 45's weapon systems"

so I'm not feeling very generous

[manic latch]

When you realise that's also the best defense of QE class

3 Phalanx

[junior trench]

because apparently the idea that you should replace them with something like a CAMM firing form of a SeaRAM mount and replace the 24 CAMM cells with the 16 Mk41 strike cells originally intended is just inferior somehow

[manic latch]

[junior trench]

the best defense of the QE class is the Burke tied to their hip

and the air wing

[manic latch]

No like I don't get the point. If even Ford has 2 Rams and 2 ESSM

Why QE should be good enough with 3 Ciws

[junior trench]

because CIWS shouldn't come into play

the point of RAM is that it essentially manages to be the boundary edge of not being CIWS

Phalanx is just there

but also doesn't really even matter anyway

[ivory ridge]

le mini osprey
https://verticalmag.com/news/first-production-aw609-prepares-for-first-flight/

[cinder escarp]

And yes, the thing about V-22 is that it was always that helos are too slow and short ranged

They didn't want a STOL transport plane

They wanted a helo

But with much higher cruise speeds and much longer range

Tiltrotors aren't the only route to go down, there's also compound helicopters

You use a coaxial rotor (or tandem would work) to get around the retreating blade stall issue, and then a pusher prop to provide the motive thrust at high speeds

Retreating blade stall is what has kept the conventional helicopter speed limit at the same speed for so long, once airspeed gets high enough - it matches the speed of the half of the rotor flowing backwards with the wind, and that half of the rotor disk stalls out. This causes an uncontrollable roll motion.

Coaxials and Tandems are semi-immune to this issue, as each of their rotors has an opposite side stall and the roll moment balances out. They still lose the lift/thrust of half of their rotor area though, hence high-speed compound designs having pusher props and other lifting surfaces to make up for it.

[frigid karma]

@spiral cedar

this is talking about prinz rupprecht btw, which in wows has about 280mm of side armor

[tender monolith]

fascinating

[maiden citrus]

15'' belt is not going to protect against 16'' shells at 10km

colorado can penetrate that much armor at over double that range

so even if they were right for the armor value, they're wrong

[manic latch]

"Less effective armor"

All ships literally share same armor quality in game

All WG can do is change its soft armor values like bow

[frigid karma]

i think he meant less raw numbers

[maiden citrus]

to protect against 16'' shells, especially good ones, in the ranges wows would demand, you basically have to make ships like me

[manic latch]

Even Kremlin/Yamato needs to angle to not get citadel hits to their 410mm belts

[maiden citrus]

yeah even 16'' belts fail at medium range

[frigid karma]

most gunnery doesn't exist past 17-18km i think

[maiden citrus]

in a naval command type roleplay, before it went on break, my latest ship had 18'' at 12 degrees

[frigid karma]

so showing flat broadside in any ship makes you pennable to the vast majority of BBs

[maiden citrus]

I mean irl, without the incline, even a 16'' belt can be penned by colorado at 20.5k yards

[frigid karma]

anyways

average wehraboo thinking their glorious german BC with 15" (citation needed) armor should be able to shrug off 16" rounds at 10km

[hushed saffron]

Attempted to make Wyoming, but buff.

[manic latch]

Wait....

Doesn't that mean they ditched Lockheed Martin as Major Partner

So program is British + Italy + Japanese + Sweden now?

Sweden is not in program but

Guess it logical to join as Gripen replacement plane

Expected flying "demonstrator" will come in 5 years

I wonder if Tempest will beat F-35 if it does arrive in 2035. Since she will have 30 year younger advantage

Knowing F-22, got a feel NGAD won't be open for export. So Tempest may conquer the market if they open her export as better F-35

As for the US Navy side

"The F/A-XX platform will ultimately succeed the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets as they reach the end of their service lives in the 2030s"

"It's specific capabilities and technologies are under development, however analysis shows it must have longer range and greater speed, incorporate passive and active sensor technology, and possess the capability to employ the longer range weapons programmed for the future,"
"As the Super Hornets are retired from service, a combination of F-35C and F/A-XX will provide Navy tactical fighter aircraft capability and capacity within the CVW"

[chilly osprey]

Tempest is meant to compliment F-35, not replace it

In the same way that F-35 compliments the Typhoon, in the Italian and British air forces, or the F-15 in the JASDF

[shrewd pecan]

Tempest can’t do the F-35 mission set in the RAF or the Italian Airforce

Britains operating only F-35Bs, something the tempest can’t replace in its intended naval or ground role

[dapper parcel]

In the end a missile truck huh?

[junior trench]

Knowing the Brits

Budget triage syndrome will strike again

Only far too late

And they'll be left scrambling to pick up more F-35s because the US doesn't plan to share NGAD

[alpine onyx]

@spiral cedar

[spiral cedar]

Nifty

[alpine onyx]

The promised collection of Gkds fighting recommendations

[spiral cedar]

I will be sure to issue it to all my captains

[alpine onyx]

also, may I draw yer attention to Bismarck vs Dunkerque?

and their fear of Dunkerque using a decapping armor scheme?

[spiral cedar]

The range of 130-180hm is to be aimed for, as it is feared that hostile fore armor, which could exist, could lower the impact of APC by decapping it.

MFD 120-180hm, here a ship angle of 2 dez is to be aimed for.

2 dez = 20 deg?

[alpine onyx]

Yep

[spiral cedar]

kk

[maiden citrus]

Dez what

[spiral cedar]

“And finally, you should try to fight at 4 dez.”
“4 dez?”
“4 dez nuts”

[dapper parcel]

unit for course angle

I thought point was obscure already

[alpine onyx]

If we use hectometers, might as well use dez

at least it's not measuring thickness in pounds per square foot

[manic latch]

First Flight of KF-21

[silver crest]

josip tito once went to a football game, got angry at the players for always arguing at the ref and wasting time, stole the ref's whistle, and appointed himself as the new ref

he even dared players to argue with his decisions

what the fuck

hirohito was buried with a mickey mouse watch

[dapper parcel]

technically runways are numbered with dez

[desert agate]

dez nuts

[manic latch]

FC-31 and KF-21

[spring briar]

Anyways

USN when scaling effects on KC armor:

[alpine onyx]

You don't want a Dunkerque with a decap belt?

[spring briar]

Not really no

I don’t think I have to explain

[somber knoll]

did Daimler ever produce naval-capable diesel powerplants during the war?

[alpine onyx]

They seem to have been in the Schnellboot business with some of their motors

But doesn't look like those particular motors hit 1500hp during the war

Tho from motors that are also topping out at three tons, that's to be expected

[somber knoll]

1 hp for half a ton with a 40s marine diesel was fine imo.

[alpine onyx]

For the purpose of small craft it's definitely sufficient

If you wanna go for torpedoboats or bigger you'll need something in the 8-10,000 ton range however

[somber knoll]

yeh.
Desulands used 6,500 HP ones in 8 configuration.

[somber knoll]

for those botes afaik they don't need multiple shafts or something? since one power unit should be reliably provide 1 shaft even with some "uninteded additions" so to speak.

[alpine onyx]

For small craft (so the equivalent of PT boats, minesweepers, mine clearers, uboats) it was usually one motor per shaft

The Königsbergs also kinda went one motor per shaft, but they were their own case

But otherwise it was multiple motors driving one shaft via a gearbox

Oh wait you asked number of shafts

They didn't really build single shaft things, even the Schnellboote had triple shaft with one motor per shaft

[dapper parcel]

With single shaft you quickly get into either draft limit (can't get any larger), speed limit (cavitation), or power limit (even more cavitation)

Also, a fast but low load factor boat like S-boat usually have fundamentally different diesel engine compared to large constant duty boat like cruisers or larger

One usually got medium-high speed diesel, the latter got low-medium speed

[alpine onyx]

Hence the multiple motors as well, that way you could decouple and maintain a motor without loosing power on the shaft

[somber knoll]

no worries. If anything, that's a nice addition to further read. I just haven't seen sources that mention using a single shaft is possible for later ship designs.

The Konigsbergs' designs allowed them to do just that because, from what I read, MAN just manned up (pun intended) to fulfill the horsepower minimum needed for the design.

Also @dapper parcel, now that you mentioned them, I figure that draft limit is more or less dictated by the size of the power unit rather than their operating range?

[alpine onyx]

For the Königsbergs it was a late addition as well, the motors looked promising on the test bench and were included, and offered an additional 8,000nm or so of cruising range

[somber knoll]

That I can dig. iirc most larger ships tend to use low rpm two strokes to maximize torque and power band relative to their operation range.

(then again most large marine diesels are two strokes but that's beside the point)

[somber knoll]

Hm, interesting. tho I think you prolly meant 800 nm, not 8k

mostly because their range is listed as 5,7k

[alpine onyx]

I meant 8000, that's what the Diesel range is rated at

With another 5700 for the standard steam plant

[dapper parcel]

It's mostly trade off
Lower speed gets you efficiency and reliability but crap power density, and v/v for high speed

you can also do direct drive with low speed diesel

[dapper parcel]

marine engine power band is usually extremely narrow

[spring briar]

*checks wows history chat >diesels
Checks alo history chat

diesels*

[somber knoll]

Know that

[manic latch]

Iraqi ministry of Defense Waiting for the decision of Iraqi Officials on the purchase of Rafale aircrafts.

[dapper parcel]

here for example a modern 2 stroke

older with mechanical injection would be even narrower

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/hmm-thinking-adding-up-calculating-cute-gif-14475367

[spring briar]

Just shows how much power an engine can output at a given rpm krem

[dapper parcel]

no shit if your piston is one meter wide

[manic latch]

So if you can give a BB engine to Soyuz. Which BB's engine you would give

[spring briar]

Lemme just go uhhh higher rpm

shaft breaks

[somber knoll]

classic sailor's "dez engine nutz" moment

[spring briar]

Once you go big everything becomes fucking inertia fucked

[somber knoll]

btw, with proper gearing that wouldn't be much of an issue,

Unless ofc you went with direct drive

[spring briar]

Kekw

How to break all your shafts

[dapper parcel]

interestingly mean piston speed is pretty much the same whether a giant ship engine or dinky SUV diesel

[alpine onyx]

Do I hear a WayOfTheDiesel moment?

[alpine onyx]

I have a wonderful V12Z motor if you want

[spring briar]

Listen here sirene

I like diesels but this is too much

[alpine onyx]

But WoWs history didn't even have Diesel talk

I need to up my game

[spring briar]

I wanna talk about like

9mm AP ammunition

[dapper parcel]

where's muh tiny ass leo2?

[spring briar]

No

[alpine onyx]

One V12Z 42/58 engine was built and completed a 200-hour test run, generating a continuous 10,000 hp (7,457 kW) at 243 rpm.

[manic latch]

[dapper parcel]

Interesting that 10khp is pretty much the rating for modern 12V32/44

so I guess that number isn't quite continuous rating

[spring briar]

[dapper parcel]

interesting huh that with the same bore/stroke, a double acting 2 stroke engine produces as much as 4 stroke single acting engine running 4 times the speed
I mean, the topology does adds up but never thought it actually that close to exact

[somber knoll]

it also dependent on the factors that sustain the engine's operation as well tbf.

[somber knoll]

Shit, I remember playing good ole Parasite Eve 2 and I found the rare 9mm "Spartan" variant.

I thought these were just some sci-fi stuff, unti l found the article on the French THV, and later Monad nines: https://www.quarryhs.co.uk/THV.htm

French cops did have a weird taste with their bullet preferences

The story starts in France, with an attempt to produce pistol ammunition particularly intended for police requirements. The stated aim was to achieve good penetration, stopping power and accuracy while achieving a marked drop in recoil and in the "danger to surroundings outside the target"; i.e., a short range. The designer was a Mr Antoine; he was hired by SFM (Société Française de Munitions) who promptly secured the patents, produced the ammunition and began to market it.

[spring briar]

Ah this

Ye

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

It uses cavitation to do damage

The higher initial mv due to the very low weight also adds to the armor pen and short range requirements

Just looks like a pain to produce

The requirements seem very similar to those of the russian 9mm AP ammo

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Without using a steel core

I see Krem is awake again

[manic latch]

[somber knoll]

I do find it sexier than the infamous 7N21 because of its pointing projectile though .

and yeh, a bit more pricey to be made because of that narrow taper,.

[spring briar]

Yeah never underestimate the power of cavitation in bullets

Modern African big game bullets often have a flat nose design to help them

1. not ricochet when hitting bones like a skull at high obliquity
2. penetrate much deeper into soft tissue
3. create a much larger temporary and permanent wound cavity

[somber knoll]

I mean, the French were so obsessed with soft tissue damage at the time that they forgot that JHP can do just the trick albeit cheaper

[spring briar]

JHP is banned no?

[somber knoll]

not for law enforcement use

which is why THV was developed

[spring briar]

Also JHP does not fulfill the penetration requirement lmao

Get outta here

[somber knoll]

bruh

[spring briar]

What?

[somber knoll]

In retrospect, it may have been decided that the penetration was insufficient for police purposes; after various failures of light, high-velocity hollow-point bullets to stop felons in the USA, deep penetration to reach vital organs is regarded as essential. That said, a Slovakian 9mm loading, stated to be a copy of the THV, penetrated over 330mm (13 inches) after passing through a NIJ II-A rated vest manufactured by Point Blank Body Armor, Inc.

wait

[spring briar]

Pog

I mean

9mm abc AP will go through III-a and easily pen another 8” of soft tissue

[somber knoll]

penetrated over 330mm (13 inches)

ain't this a bit overpen by law enforcement standards?

[spring briar]

Matey

Well

[humble mulch]

Level 2

[spring briar]

Level 2 is weak sauce

[humble mulch]

It’s like a leather jacket iirc

[spring briar]

III-a is rated to stop up to 44 mag

[humble mulch]

If you go 13 inches past NIJ -3A

That’s different

Or Normal lvl 3 and 4

[spring briar]

That would mean a full steel bullet

Like this one

[humble mulch]

Yeah

[spring briar]

9mm abc ap

My beloved

[humble mulch]

Need me a box of those

[spring briar]

Can’t buy them anymore

Legally at least

[humble mulch]

You can make them

[spring briar]

Yea

Make it plus p +++

[humble mulch]

The bullet it’s self is Legal

As is everything else

[spring briar]

Use it to pen IV-a body armor

[humble mulch]

But you can’t buy it put together

What’s the load lmao

How many grains in the little lad

[spring briar]

Not that much

[humble mulch]

[spring briar]

Like 100 ish grains?

Lemme check rq

[somber knoll]

like how much does the bullet itself weigh in?

[humble mulch]

I use federals hollow point and that’s at 112 grains I think

[manic latch]

What are you

[humble mulch]

Have to empty a mag to break NIJ 3A

[somber knoll]

tried the good ole Hydra-Shok variant?

[humble mulch]

Yes?

[somber knoll]

pog

[humble mulch]

It’s the expensive box

[somber knoll]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/460645783021289472/963260928470704149/pogchamping.gif

[humble mulch]

I don’t use cheap ammo with my side arm
AK yes but not my Springfield

[spring briar]

AP bullets are usually lighter because steel + they need the speed to penetrate better at short range

[humble mulch]

Yeah

[spring briar]

Also soyboy hollow point user

[humble mulch]

I have to

I don’t get into gun fights with people in body armor

I need to put them down

[spring briar]

Use white phosphorous you wuss

[humble mulch]

And not hit anyone else

Cause I’m in CA

[somber knoll]

btw, Riche, found this comment on a Tarkov sub post and the weegee syndrome has spread out:

I bet we will see the GSh-18 and it's 7n31 ammunition. That ABC 9mm AP preforms well but the 7n31 is a much higher pressure ammo that should do even better from increased velocity. both will pen 3a for sure, 7n31 may pen nij 3, but I doubt any of them will pen nij4