Both are shitshows, as far as Im aware
#history
eternal veldt
hollow wind
AKA the ship with a recon plane deck so big that its only known for that
spiral cedar
Ise was worse than Fusou because they removed living space area
hollow wind
AKA the ship with a recon plane deck so big that its only known for that
And only 4 turrets
spiral cedar
So even less livable
alpine onyx
Ise was a sidegrade to Fusou
eternal veldt
Right... And then more aviators
dapper parcel
Ise was downgrade as far as actual operability was concerned
spring briar
hollow wind
The Essex class is pretty much just big long square that carries airplanes
spiral cedar
At least her amidships magazines aren’t getting heated by the machinery…I think?
hollow wind
The Essex class is pretty much just big long square that carries airplanes
And battleship secondary guns
hollow wind
And battleship secondary guns
As AA
eternal veldt
Ah right, reminds me of what WG did to Normandie with their upgrades
alpine onyx
Internal arrangement of the Fusous is just wild
hollow wind
Internal arrangement of the Fusous is just wild
The amount of secondary cannons
hollow wind
The amount of secondary cannons
Why
alpine onyx
You'll find the weirdest shit in the weirdest locations
And the magazines for #3 and 4 are supposedly a Narnia closet
hollow wind
The amount of secondary cannons
Oh yeah why not put many many old cruiser guns on our sides our magazine won't explode that easy amirite
eternal veldt
And the magazines for #3 and 4 are supposedly a Narnia closet
They should have an unauthorized party in there!
hollow wind
Oh yeah why not put many many old cruiser guns on our sides our magazine won't e...
Also why not have almost no AA
spiral cedar
I mean, in the 1910s? Bad AA was normal
hollow wind
Also why not have almost no AA
And have 2 big towers
spiral cedar
having 2 x 3” guns as AA was normal battleship AA for the time
hollow wind
And have 2 big towers
Our bridge won't get taken out that easily right
alpine onyx
In terms of auxiliary armament the Fusous are in line for their age
Tho the upgrades they got were very disappointing in the heavy AA regard
hollow wind
Our bridge won't get taken out that easily right
Like they won't have shells cut the bridge tower in half right
eternal veldt
A higher spotting top allows you to spot the enemy easier
alpine onyx
But with that turret arrangement that was inevitable
spring briar
Like they won't have shells cut the bridge tower in half right
they are hexapodal
so no
hollow wind
A higher spotting top allows you to spot the enemy easier
Oh yeah at the risk of it falling down like the London tower
eternal veldt
And Fusou imo overall just doesnt have a lot of space to work with
spring briar
also as far as I know the only ship that almost got a tripod leg cut was Scharnhorst
maiden citrus
the cursed turret farm magazone
eternal veldt
Unless you do Hiraga's insane 41cm conversion, I guess
dapper parcel
At least her amidships magazines aren’t getting heated by the machinery…I think?
Huh, you'd think
Unless they use super long shaft, the machinery has to be split around the central batteries
spiral cedar
The height of the pagodas was due to a desire for long-range gunnery. The girth is due to Japanese fire control being overly manpower-intensive
alpine onyx
Eugen had her forward mast cut by the nuke
spring briar
doesn't count
alpine onyx
hollow wind
eternal veldt
Taking notes, canned coal?
spring briar
Taking notes, canned coal?
ayo
vittorio veneto rear turret!
alpine onyx
Because there's nothing in front or behind it, so it sticks out
spiral cedar
They should have an unauthorized party in there!
spring briar
you know it's cramped in there when you gotta resort to making the rear turret sit on a barbette that high
eternal veldt
Or god forbid, Richelieu without her mack...
eternal veldt
No, no funnels
spring briar
so the smoke just
spring briar
alpine onyx
Did I hear Diesel?
spring briar
Silver
eternal veldt
🏃
spring briar
go commit stand on the rear deck of early usn treaty cruisers while under gunfire
spiral cedar
Did I hear Diesel?
Come check out diesel
alpine onyx
Diesel is love
spiral cedar
Diesel nuts
eternal veldt
go commit stand on the rear deck of early usn treaty cruisers while under gunfir...
Oof. Can I stay in the amidship hangar of NO instead?
spiral cedar
<:AlbaDoubt:666111460115480607>
Blessed AotS 
alpine onyx
I remember measuring the height of Fusou's final tower vs some other ships, and it really wasn't that tall in comparison
spiral cedar
Go commit South Dakota’s floatplanes on the night of 14-15
eternal veldt
Fine, I'll stay in Hood's 4" HA gun magazine
alpine onyx
Tho being so slim at the bottom makes it look comically large
dapper parcel
Other BBs most likely have enough beam to not look as ridiculous proportionally
eternal veldt
Come to think of it, everyone in the turret also died when she got torped
spring briar
ok
my best one:
go commit sunbathe on Dunkerque's number 2 turret between guns 7 and 8 during mers el kebir
dapper parcel
On the other hand, the pagoda doesn't look as ridiculous if you imagine it simply as the underlying tripod mast but with shits tacked on
maiden citrus
go be the sodak circuit fuse
eternal veldt
Actually, quick check
Did any of Richelieu's gun crew die when the shells went boom at dakar
spiral cedar
Someone draw that
spring briar
but the turret crew in the other half turret were ok
dapper parcel
Unlike Iowa, Richelieu was actually gun failure
spiral cedar
Richy’s back being blown out
spring briar
Unlike Iowa, Richelieu was actually gun failure
shell failure
eternal veldt
Didnt three of the barrels blow out?
dapper parcel
that causes gun failure
eternal veldt
Only gun 7 was a total wreck
spring briar
one actually blew
the other two had rifling stripped
dapper parcel
in contrast to Iowa being out of battery explosion
spiral cedar
accident is accident
—crew of Mikasa
eternal veldt
You know what, I'll be Patton's boat on Augusta during Casablanca
Having bottom blown out 
eternal veldt
Gun blast
hollow wind
spring briar
hahahaha
hollow wind
hm
spiral cedar
At 1105, after discharging five salvos at ranges up to 17,000 yards at a destroyer on the edge of the smoke screen, Augusta’s guns also fell silent and she headed east toward the transports. Patton commented, “We had lunch—naval war is nice and comfortable.”
eternal veldt
The derricks were still in place
eternal veldt
Gunblast blew the bottom out, and patton's possessions all fell out
dapper parcel
—crew of Mikasa
eternal veldt
Still cant get over how its a fucking party in the mags that blew Mikasa
hollow wind
well make sense it was the time when guns and wave tactics were used a lot
hollow wind
Still cant get over how its a fucking party in the mags that blew Mikasa
Hell nah
eternal veldt
Most disciplined IJN sailor /s
spring briar
ard
maiden citrus
dapper parcel
spring briar
listen fren
I will literally fight you over Richelieu's gun accident
oki
so
let's remain frends
spring briar
that is actually funny tho
spiral cedar
Wasn’t it like 750 m
eternal veldt
Wasn’t it like 750 m
Was during 1946 full salvo firing
spring briar
fired individually with good accuracy
eternal veldt
Before delaying coils were fitted
ivory ridge
eternal veldt
Oh hey, Undie's here
How's those 381/50s doing? Can't hit a single Brit cruiser, can't aim for shit
spring briar
I got the numbers but I can't post images because of 10 pixels belonging to the crotch of an anthropomorphised french heavy cruiser
ivory ridge
hollow wind
spring briar
<:Smadgium:914302770738253825>
hollow wind
Oh look
hollow wind
Thin lines moment
spiral cedar
Narrator voice: Those were not thin lines
hollow wind
Narrator voice: *Those were not thin lines*
Those were just thin southern fronts
spiral cedar
Kursk in 25 seconds
hollow wind
that Germany forgot to care about
dapper parcel
wait, it wasn't thousands of 1v1 tank battle? 
ivory ridge
italian shell quality wheeze
eternal veldt
well make sense it was the time when guns and wave tactics were used a lot
Dear lord, please dont unironically subsribe to the "Soviets can only do human waves" theory
spring briar
that metronome wouldn't work because italian steel quality
hollow wind
Dear lord, please dont unironically subsribe to the "Soviets can only do human w...
It was verdun it was ww1
spring briar
hahahah
spiral cedar
Dear lord, please dont unironically subsribe to the "Soviets can only do human w...
Was about Verdun
eternal veldt
Phew. Thank you.
hollow wind
So everyone used those tactics
eternal veldt
Got a bit scarred lately
hollow wind
The memes
ivory ridge
that metronome wouldn't work because italian steel quality
So true
maiden citrus
lately has good evidence
spring briar
it would fit
spiral cedar
I do recall someone taking the worst dispersed salvo in a US practice shoot in the 20s and using that to represent US 14” guns in general 
maiden citrus
yeah the 14''/50s at huge range had greater then wanted dispersion
fixed in the update but le shrug
chilly osprey
NGL a 3,000 meter full battery salvo pretty much takes the cake for any dispersion I've ever seen
Though idk if the point of aim for that salvo was the same for every gun
eternal veldt
Ive seen people use Dakar and that 1946 full trial as examples to completely discredit the 380/45
spring briar
it's literally physics
if your closely spaced undelayed 14"/50's don't have dispersion you're literally breaking the laws of physics
or are using garbage powder
dapper parcel
For real tho, yesterday's... thing, feels unreal to me
I was only half sober and the exact same thing posted here was also posted on the wiki channel, with exact same response noting how it looks french, etc.
Post here was immediately moderated, and I'm losing my shit figuring out what the fuck was going on
chilly osprey
Or can't get the shell seating right due to an excessively large firing chamber...
spring briar
For real tho, yesterday's... *thing*, feels unreal to me
I was only half sober a...
it was most definitely a 1984 moment
eternal veldt
Ard slowly losing his grip on reality
dapper parcel
You know, when you start asking your own mind because I definitely saw something that (eventually) wasn't there
eternal veldt
Tegethoff moment?
eternal veldt
(yes, debunked, I know)
spring briar
that has indeed been overly criticised
spiral cedar
spring briar
I wouldn't say debunked tho
eternal veldt
by debunked I mean more that the internal diagrams of the turrets were explained
maiden citrus
nice shootin tex
eternal veldt
Gassing your guncrew didn't seem possible
spring briar
<:dunkekstare:754204585031237703>
every texan vs californian debate
spring briar
by debunked I mean more that the internal diagrams of the turrets were explained
hmmm
eternal veldt
That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it!" This is a weapon of mass destruction. You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!
spring briar
i mean
people could start looking at the fact that the tegethoffs have no armor between their front turret plates and barbette but hey
toxic gases
spiral cedar
every texan vs californian debate
Californians have fewer guns because they can aim better 
eternal veldt
Admittedly, it's immensely stupid and hilarious if true
spring briar
I mean I can show you the plans
eternal veldt
Gassing your gun crew every time your main guns fired is something of a serious fault
spring briar
and I indeed doubt they would not spot that
dapper parcel
Everything is bigger in Texas they say, so of course they can afford to miss
eternal veldt
But of course, just like O'Bannon's potato thing, greatly embellished
eternal veldt
<:dunkekstare:754204585031237703>
No, see, the simple solution is to list the ship
instantly increase the precision of the firing solution
spring briar
speaking of ELR
I've designed a bullet along the 155mm artillery shells of modern artillery to get the highest possible BC
now I just need someone to produce it
😭
and a gun to shoot it
dapper parcel
Smh, just get bigger shell, ez big BC
dapper parcel
navsource when you hotlink their image 
maiden citrus
pensacola poggers
eternal veldt
ngl, I like Pepsi in her Northampton/Portland style refits
spring briar
great looking boat to me
makes me think of cowboys for some reason
and I can't point out why
eternal veldt
My only gripe with Pepsi is er, the front
Forecastle feels too low for me, Northamptons and Portland fixed that issue for me with the raised deck
And then the US ditches the clipper bow entirely with NOs 😔
maiden citrus
ram bow my beloved
dapper parcel
It looks weird when the barbette(?) is taller than the freeboard
eternal veldt
Yea, I think that's the reason why
spring briar
I don't get why you can't just enjoy the ship as is
if she'd have had the higher focsle it wouldn't be pensacola anymore
eternal veldt
These are just chef's kiss though
eternal veldt
I don't get why you can't just enjoy the ship as is
I mean, I enjoy them, that doesn't stop me from pointing out where I think it'd look better
spring briar
Augie is the golden standard in USN shipbuilding for me
NO's have too straight a bow
eternal veldt
But of course, there are real life constrictions/needs
eternal veldt
My main issue with Iowa is that bloody thin bow of hers
spring briar
augie is so perfect
maiden citrus
the fatter the better
eternal veldt
(WIll not cause seaworthiness problems, guaranteed)
spring briar
tenneee
chilly osprey
Silver Tears out here saying Iowa got a weak jawline
spring briar
maiden citrus
punching iowa in the jawline would cut your fist in half
spring briar
punch iowa on her round nose
like a shark
ok actually don't iowa is a good girl
punch bitchmark
dapper parcel
Wisconsin would want a talk
eternal veldt
Rodney did already, kinda
spring briar
Wisconsin would want a talk
she just needed a visit to the densist
eternal veldt
in your own words, blew her (turret's) back out
spring briar
Provence's starboard aft armor blew out as well
dapper parcel
she just needed a visit to the densist
Visit to a dentist that ends up with your sister being grafted into you?
spring briar
I never said the US has good dentists
spring briar
spring briar
Le Malin happy
eternal veldt
Though I think they did the same with Audacieux, so...
spring briar
was it audacieux who was used to repair le malin
spring briar
ok so L'Indomptable was scuttled as to not get used by the G*rmans
and her bow was used to later repair Le Mochi
L'Audacieux was just used for spares
but no real grafting
L'Audacieux audaciously went forth from within the smokescreen to spot the british and found Australia right in front of her
very oof
desert agate
well make sense it was the time when guns and wave tactics were used a lot
I would note that WW1 tactics and operations were generally far more nuanced than popular culture gives them credit for
For the most part anyway
1914 was literal hell
spring briar
is ok
atleast she didn't sink
desert agate
Australia and France fren forever
spring briar
desert agate
desert agate
eternal veldt
Eh, her Turret 1's still (kinda) operable
just with Strasbourg's SD19 charges, so it's kinda wonky
Well, that, and the 152mms were still operational IIRC
spring briar
I mean
eternal veldt
and the Counties are very well protected anyway
desert agate
stupid fucking interwar military policy
spring briar
if it were a dud
eternal veldt
Didn't you guys get an offer to buy an Essex, or am I misremembering?
eternal veldt
no sex
desert agate
No sex indeed
spring briar
desert agate
Tbf tho an Essex was gonna be far too expensive and manpower intensive for us to operate in that time period
eternal veldt
would pen HMAS Australia from bow to stern
Alright, let's go wilder
It's HMAS Australia, but it's the BC instead
Riche with wonky guns against her
spring briar
I doubt the 4crh 12" would do much
desert agate
The mid to late 50s was a poor time period for Australia's economy truth be told
An Essex simply wasn't viable
eternal veldt
I doubt the 4crh 12" would do much
But what about on the receiving end? Not good for Australia, I presume?
desert agate
In the 60s? Sure but by then defence spending was caught up in the Vietnam was, naval acquisition was not a priority
spring briar
given Australia is armoured like a treaty cruiser with steel from the stone age also known as the early 1900's
not so good
desert agate
And then in the 70s, post-vietnam military opinion is at an all time low and thus defence shrank a fair bit, plus no perceived need for a carrier made the acquisition inpossible
spring briar
eg richie could plug the armor with a glancing shot near the wing turret on the starboard side
and fuck her up
eternal veldt
Spon, should have offered to help retrieve the Apollo astronauts, that's how you get the sexes /s
desert agate
I read that 60-62 was the only time period when purchasing an Essex was viable
Which I agree with
Economy is doing alright
eternal veldt
Would it work with then RAN aircraft, though?
desert agate
And Vietnam hasn't kicked off into the nation defining brutal war it was a mere 3 years later
We were operating American Skyhawks and S-2s
At least in the mid-late 60s
I can't see any reason why Melbourne's Gannets and other aircraft couldn't operate from an Essex but it wouldnt have been ideal
Simply a waste of a capable asset by using less than capable aircraft on it
spring briar
desert agate
Realistically we'd need a full new air group for an Australian Essex and we'd just end up buying Skyhawks and Trackers a few years earlier
manic latch
KF-21 and F-22
When you order F-22 from Wish
At least now we can say F22 got export variant
desert agate
And Riche would wipe the floor with BC Australia
But what about Tiger?
Would she fair better?
Assume that she's received modern updated fire control equipment
chilly osprey
I too love the sound of rubbing all two product units together :p
hollow wind
hollow wind
https://youtu.be/Zid1Nv-FfyQ
Its like the stuka but more alien and futuristic
And it doesn't need to sive
manic latch
https://youtu.be/Zid1Nv-FfyQ
hollow wind
Dive
spring briar
if tiger can somehow get to richie's front at close enough range to try and pen the forward bulkhead
chilly osprey
Tbh Tiger's shells would be unlikely to be effective against any armored portion of Richelieu
hollow wind
Tbh Tiger's shells would be unlikely to be effective against any armored portion...
But it can hit the bridge if it wants to be funny
And small exposed stuff
spring briar
killing crew is indeed funny
hollow wind
Only that
hollow wind
killing crew is indeed funny
Yes
hollow wind
https://youtu.be/Zid1Nv-FfyQ
This sound is so cool
eternal veldt
You'd need quite a bit of luck to "aim" for a bridge in naval gunnery
Not saying it never happened, Captain Leach had everyone beside him killed during Denmark Strait
hollow wind
This sound is so cool
Cooler than a sound of a V1 engine suddenly stopping over london
manic latch
eternal veldt
But Richelieu has a strong conning tower
Actually, I forgot. Why did the Brits abandon the concept of an armoured conning tower again?
chilly osprey
Do you think they make that moaning round because they know they're never getting built in the numbers advertised?
hollow wind
Cooler than a sound of a V1 engine suddenly stopping over london
Everybody in London be gangsta until the V1 engine stops
desert agate
But it can hit the bridge if it wants to be funny
hitting the bridge is borderline impossible in naval combat, at least intentionally
chilly osprey
Or because they make have the frontal RCS of a clean F-15?
desert agate
Actually, I forgot. Why did the Brits abandon the concept of an armoured conning...
because captains and admirals routinely refused to use it
hollow wind
hitting the bridge is borderline impossible in naval combat, at least intentiona...
Well prince of wales got unlucky didn't it
chilly osprey
Hitting anywhere specific in naval gunnery past 10,000 meters is basically entirely luck
You aim to hit the ship, not specific parts of it
desert agate
they preferred their open navigation bridges as they provided them with a greater understanding of their surroundings
eternal veldt
Bridge hits are surprisingly common, though, tbh.
desert agate
so the admiralty just decided
eternal veldt
Aoba's CO was taken out when her bridge got smacked at Cape Esperance
desert agate
"alright if you're not using them we arent wasting displacement on them, have a splinter protected bridge and fucking like it"
eternal veldt
same for Mikawa aboard Choukai at Savo
hollow wind
same for Mikawa aboard Choukai at Savo
The Americans don't talk about savo island
eternal veldt
and Abe...well, did a gamer move
spring briar
the only battles where you could see a ship aiming for the waterline was the USS Washington vs Kirishima
where Kirishima seemingly hit more randomly
hollow wind
just the Americans?
Well bcs they're the ones that screwed up so badly it's considered the worst naval defeat
chilly osprey
Bridges tend to be big obvious targets in night fights
desert agate
eternal veldt
tfw might be the only time the Mark 14 doesn't fuck up is on an allied cruiser
gg US BuOrd
desert agate
Well bcs they're the ones that screwed up so badly it's considered the worst nav...
it was a British admiral on board an Australian warship who was in command that night
hollow wind
Battle of the Java sea
chilly osprey
And night fights often do happen at ranges where you can kind of direct aim
desert agate
the fault of Savo really does lie with Crutchley
hollow wind
Battle of the Java sea
RIP Netherlands ships
eternal veldt
Tbh, the allied command report system was pretty bad overall
gilded girder
and Abe...well, <:LaffeyStare:585585240236621864> did a gamer move
I rly thought about the wrong Abe. Didn't I🗿
eternal veldt
a reported sighting of Mikawa's force took 8 hours bouncing around Pearl before reaching Turner
eternal veldt
It was under MacArthur's command if I recall
desert agate
it was but had Crutchley not left on HMAS Australia he could have directed a response better
eternal veldt
~~I rly thought about the wrong Abe. Didn't I~~🗿
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroaki_Abe this Abe, relax
hollow wind
https://tenor.com/view/ww2-explosion-ship-explode-bomb-gif-11374861
Yewch
eternal veldt
Guy got machine gunned by Laffey
desert agate
based?
eternal veldt
then decided to withdraw
desert agate
it pisses me off how Canberra could have been saved
hollow wind
https://tenor.com/view/ww2-explosion-ship-explode-bomb-gif-11374861
That's a fast capsize
chilly osprey
Three torpedoes tend to do that against ships of that vintage
eternal veldt
it was but had Crutchley not left on HMAS Australia he could have directed a res...
Crutchley was off for a conference, no?
desert agate
there was absolutely no reason why she had to be scuttled
spring briar
Three torpedoes tend to do that against ships of that vintage
it's obviously hidden damage from when she fought richie at dakar
eternal veldt
I'd argue that the faulty reporting system already is the first mistake
desert agate
Crutchley was off for a conference, no?
he was, and in doing so decapitated his own command
eternal veldt
question now is to blame it on MacArthur's command or not
desert agate
he also deployed his forces in such a way that his ships couldnt take advantage of radar
chilly osprey
it's obviously hidden damage from when she fought richie at dakar
inb4 story of American yardworkers finding 13" holes in Warspite resurfaces again
desert agate
to detect the approaching japanese
eternal veldt
Radar was relatively new technology back then, no?
Norman Scott didn't trust Helena's results during Esperance
chilly osprey
Yes, and many admirals didn't really understand how to best use it
hollow wind
that moment when the Japanese doesn't have enough oil or ammo to devastate the many many troop transports
spring briar
~~inb4 story of American yardworkers finding 13" holes in Warspite resurfaces ag...
?
desert agate
and leaving your command in an active warzone is really just a bad idea under all circumstances
spring briar
elaborate
eternal veldt
that moment when the Japanese doesn't have enough oil or ammo to devastate the m...
No, Mikawa did
hollow wind
No, Mikawa did
But only mikawa
eternal veldt
The often cited argument was that Mikawa could have continued onwards and destroyed the offloading transports during Savo
desert agate
savo was not the first time the japanese had got the jump on an allied fleet at night and crutchley should have known it
hollow wind
And they cant go to the transport bcs they don't want to risk it more for the biscuit
desert agate
But only mikawa
mikawa was the admiral
eternal veldt
The thing that prompted him to withdraw was his forces getting disorganized, and the massive threat of getting airstrikes while retreating if he did so
You're confusing between Mikuma and Mikawa, are you?
hollow wind
And they cant go to the transport bcs they don't want to risk it more for the bi...
Which is understandable
desert agate
mikawa made the correct decision in the position he was in
hollow wind
Which is understandable
Already wasted half supplies for another battle dont want to risk sinking and battling again
eternal veldt
He had no way of knowing Fletcher withdrew his carriers
desert agate
exactly
eternal veldt
a lucky break for the Allies
desert agate
risking a valuable fleet against a potentially superior force of air power was not something he wanted to risk
eternal veldt
well, and yea, losing a CA is unacceptable with dwindling IJN resources
(Kako got smacked anyway later)
desert agate
a rare moment of sanity in japans "cult of the offensive" officer corps
hollow wind
Biggest naval battles
680 ships on the extra old times damn
eternal veldt
Also, arguably the spotting mistakes also contributed to the shitstorm
spring briar
Biggest naval battles
really doesn't count when 80% of those people are literally the engine power
eternal veldt
the reported composition included "seaplane tenders", leading to allied command thinking that the force was off to set off a seaplane base rather than coming down hot the slot
desert agate
mikawa sunk canberra but we got him back at Bismarck Sea
chilly osprey
?
There is a story that when Warspite was under repair at Bremerton from August to December 1941, the American workers round 12" and 13" holes in her under the waterline, which are supposedly either leftovers from Jutland or unreported hits from Giulio Cesare.
Almost assuredly bullshit but some revisionist historians caught onto the idea when they were trying to argue that Warspite had suffered gun damage at Calabria.
Again, it is almost assuredly bullshit, as though she was straddled by 320mm APC and 203mm HE, there is no way that anything like that wouldn't appear in damage records.
eternal veldt
But in their defence, naval recognition is hard
hollow wind
But in their defence, naval recognition is hard
Plane is almost harder back then
spring briar
lmao
eternal veldt
Just remember
hollow wind
But in their defence, naval recognition is hard
I mean the final mistake for the hood was targeting the prinz eugen by accident
eternal veldt
The Japanese reported Warspite was sunk twice
and both of these times it's none other than USS Chicago
hollow wind
The Japanese reported Warspite was sunk twice
Hell nah
spring briar
I mean USN dockyard workers almost set Richie on fire
hollow wind
I mean the final mistake for the hood was targeting the prinz eugen by accident
the last major bruh moment hood had before death
eternal veldt
Again, naval recognition is hard
and previous intel suggests that Bismarck was the leading vessel
desert agate
IJN moment
eternal veldt
Holland had no way of knowing the position swap
hollow wind
Again, naval recognition is hard
Yeah I can't blame them prinz eugen is just smaller Bismarck
With torps
eternal veldt
~~I mean USN dockyard workers almost set Richie on fire~~
Too hot for US to handle
dapper parcel
I thought the mistakes were caught but rather than recalculating firing solution it would be better to continue blasting at Eugen anyway
desert agate
Yeah I can't blame them prinz eugen is just smaller Bismarck
at combat ranges they both just look like black blobs on the horizon anyway
eternal veldt
Alright, Riche, the real hard questions
hollow wind
at combat ranges they both just look like black blobs on the horizon anyway
And it would be worse if they were same size looking bcs of the positioning
hollow wind
And it would be worse if they were same size looking bcs of the positioning
We do a little mental domination
eternal veldt
Mate, they're both designed in relatively same periods
spring briar
I think her crew drank it already
eternal veldt
Of course they'd appear similarly
spring briar
at combat ranges they both just look like black blobs on the horizon anyway
I mean the Brits identified Eugen as Dunkerque that one time
so ye
eternal veldt
Just look at Neosho
hollow wind
Imagine if ur in the battle of samar and then as an escort destroyer a entire fleet suddenly fires from a fog
spring briar
eternal veldt
"California-class battleship"
maiden citrus
I wouldn't put it past warspite to have had damage
alpine onyx
Eugen identified both British battleships as heavy cruisers
hollow wind
Eugen identified both British battleships as heavy cruisers
Well for the hood make sense
alpine onyx
The naval recognition shenanigans went both ways on that day
eternal veldt
Didn't Bismarck report Prince of Wales as Renown?
alpine onyx
They were both initially considered to be Counties
hollow wind
Hood looks like the repulse battle cruiser but one more gun
alpine onyx
Hence Eugen's ammo selection
spring briar
at some point
the USN
identified Japan
as a threat
let that sink in
eternal veldt
Suffolk and Norfolk ptsd 
spring briar
hollow wind
Didn't Bismarck report Prince of Wales as Renown?
She looks like the renown but way too many barrels and w i d e
alpine onyx
You are looking at a ship from 25km away
If you want to start counting gun barrels you'll be in for a fun time
eternal veldt
The ships are literally blobs
dapper parcel
I'd be surprised if you can count the turrets, let alone barrels
eternal veldt
you are not going to identify anything worthwhile
chilly osprey
This is why many recognition guides then to have weird angular shapes rather than specific profiles
They're trying to have you identify ships off of features and shapes that can still be distinguished at long range
Rather than hunting for specific details
The latter just isn't practical for anyone who isn't operating a fire control rangefinder
eternal veldt
this is what I tried to simulate a year back
alpine onyx
Wichita might get mistaken for Emden
eternal veldt
we had the exact discussion before
eternal veldt
this is what I tried to simulate a year back
even this is extremely generous, and the weather conditions at Denmark Strait IIRC isn't very good
eternal veldt
Grey skies, faced with ships painted in, unsurprisingly, light grey superstructures and darker grey hulls
hollow wind
eternal veldt
Are we talking recogition profiles?
hollow wind
Ah yes
alpine onyx
and camo schemes that will do everything to fuck the silhouette of the ship
hollow wind
The entire German ww2 navy right there
spring briar
I doubt the camo would even be visible
dapper parcel
One of the biggest obstacle is the lack of size reference in the middle of the ocean
Even if you see it broadside on from an aircraft, there's no way to be sure what size it is
eternal veldt
how to give Phoenix nightmares
hollow wind
All this deleted in 1943
hollow wind
that looks like a surfboard with some stuff thrown on...
Looks like a toy ship
eternal veldt
They did pretty good already, if what they took was the only reference picture available
Compared to Jane's monstrosities
or...this shit, hang on
hollow wind
Italian navy
chilly osprey
My favorite American naval intelligence meme is still Gorizia's 250mm belt
Thanks Britain
spring briar
janes can't draw quads for shit
dapper parcel
I mean, when the sources are only oral intel it can be wild
I still sometimes wheeze at how the intel on yamato trickles out
spring briar
eh it's not the worst
chilly osprey
I love they just, kind of assumed that Gorizia alone and none of her sisters was actually over 10,000 tons
And thus she must have uniquely heavy armor versus the rest of the class
eternal veldt
Riche, Jane's funny thing is not just the drawings
even the figures are hilarious
Iowa: 19" belt
Richelieu: 16" belt
chilly osprey
Jane's just outright makes shit up
eternal veldt
NC: 6" lower deck, 4" upper deck
chilly osprey
They're really not a reliable source
eternal veldt
on 35,000 tons
eternal veldt
My bad for assuming
spring briar
and bought Janes 1942
hollow wind
Pretty much used for every bullet hell ww2 game
manic latch
Iowa: 19" belt
Soviets also think Iowa had that kind of armor
eternal veldt
Jane's isn't entirely bad though, especially the pages behind
hollow wind
Pretty much used for every bullet hell ww2 game
I mean the American version actually got produced
spring briar
or that there is no third bismarck
alpine onyx
You're still faster than the average
chilly osprey
inb4 Soviet naval intelligence is just their London naval attaché reading a copy of Jane's and sending the info back to Moscow
manic latch
Pretty much used for every bullet hell ww2 game
hollow wind
*looks at Scharnhorst belt*
Got deleted with the rest of the Kriegsmarine in 1943
hollow wind
<:Chad:972682271469494282>
Nice
alpine onyx
Got deleted with the rest of the Kriegsmarine in 1943
Is this r/historymemes ?
Or do you actually believe that?
hollow wind
Is this r/historymemes ?
ok no I guess
eternal veldt
Jane's isn't entirely bad though, especially the pages behind
You can't find these in Conway's/Navypedia.
chilly osprey
No, Sirene, the Russians were being shelled by phantom ships in the Baltics
No KM past Christmas '43!
eternal veldt
and on a slightly different tangent...
spring briar
only true naval historians know that the German battleship family tree finds its origin in the French one 
hollow wind
wow toys
eternal veldt
"Fun for all the family", good joke
dapper parcel
and on a slightly different tangent...
when your ads have better info than your content
hollow wind
spring briar
imagine including USS Alaska
manic latch
only true naval historians know that the German battleship family tree finds its...
Based Italians will accept Soviet Navy is their children
hollow wind
There's so many that my phone's zoom can't zoom that much into the names
manic latch
a battleship family tree would be cursed
Soyuz X Stalingrad= Project 24 
manic latch
Sorry, Kremlin, still can't get over how fucked Kirov is as built
there was a Civil War before
manic latch
Navy forget many things with it
alpine onyx
Quick sanity check, out of the 40 completed Zedbotes 14 were still in an operational state at the end of the war
hollow wind
The German navy slowly being bombed to death past 43' be like
spring briar
the french navy already being largely scuttled by 1942
alpine onyx
if I include Z-23 it's 15, but she was prepared to be sunk as a blockship
so wouldn't be fair
hollow wind
funny
spring briar
sirene
nimi is on our soil
she is french
hollow wind
Past that it's mostly blockades, ships on ports, and subs
alpine onyx
Also German destroyers continuing to serve into the mid 50s be like
eternal veldt
manic latch
the french navy already being largely scuttled by 1942
Germans capture Alsace and rename it Guderian
spring briar
alpine onyx
Also someone tell the Soviets to use ships properly
hollow wind
bro moustache dud fr didn't use Franz Halder to hold france
hollow wind
bro moustache dud fr didn't use Franz Halder to hold france
💀
spring briar
someone tell germany to use nationalism properly?
chilly osprey
Also someone tell the Soviets to use ships properly
VMF: No!
Soviet DD proceeds to loose another gunfight to a minesweeper
manic latch
Also someone tell the Soviets to use ships properly
Oi they used BBs for bombardment, Destroyers as escort and bombardment, cruisers as bombardment
alpine onyx
how did they manage to fuck up Z-33? She was just a barrack ship starting 1955, yet they managed to unintentionally set her on fire
hollow wind
bro moustache dud fr didn't use Franz Halder to hold france
Fr tho
I guess Rommel was a better option
manic latch
how did they manage to fuck up Z-33? She was just a barrack ship starting 1955, ...
German DD engines yikes
hollow wind
Until he had to die for his family
alpine onyx
as a barrack ship
manic latch
Still the same engines
spring briar
German DD engines yikes
no we actually found out they worked quite well if you took care of them
alpine onyx
but you don't use them anymore
also yes, they did work quite well if you had properly trained personnel
looks at Z-4
dapper parcel
how did they manage to fuck up Z-33? She was just a barrack ship starting 1955, ...
Considering the furnishing, barrack ship would be unironically in for higher fire risk than proper manned warship
chilly osprey
No.1 cause of fires on ships is people not checking the dryer lint...
spring briar
and tbh
in the end I'm glad we could take care of some of the german smol girls
especially the torpedo boats
eternal veldt
Also, no matter how you spin it, getting shit everywhere on Arkhangelsk's mess hall is yikes
alpine onyx
Z-4 didn't catch the memo of being supposed to be unreliable, spent one and a half years of non stop DD duties without seeing a dockyard once
eternal veldt
be it a bear, a burst toilet pipe, etc
hollow wind
bro moustache dud fr didn't use Franz Halder to hold france
I know he was known as Halder but his full name is just
A little too yknow to ignore
gilded girder
not cleaning it
Arky smelly
alpine onyx
also those poor Type 1923 torpedobotes
spring briar
A little too yknow to ignore
we are talking about ships
not franz halder
alpine onyx
worked to death
hollow wind
ok
manic latch
no we actually found out they worked quite well if you took care of them
As if Americans handled Prinz so much better 
alpine onyx
sent to stop D-Day landings
spring briar
As if Americans handled Prinz so much better <:PepeStare:912789768964833341>
there's a difference krem
hollow wind
worked to death
And probably strafed by planes to death
eternal veldt
Prinz got some stuff salvaged before being marked as a nuke ship, so...
hollow wind
https://youtu.be/sEr02Vz3PjY
Looks like your average French post ww2 heavy tank
alpine onyx
Nah, they dedicated a massive air assault on their base after they managed to disrupt the operations
so while in port they just got raided to death
poor little 800 ton botes
hollow wind
Looks like your average French post ww2 heavy tank
Like one of the AMX series
manic latch
Prinz got some stuff salvaged before being marked as a nuke ship, so...
Uhuh. So why it happened after Germans left 
hollow wind
Right, that's the one, Flying Fish
the middle part is cursed
alpine onyx
The Americans took quite some stuff from Prinz
alpine onyx
that passage about her magnetic amplifiers
eternal veldt
Turret A's guns were taken to Dahlgren as well IIRC
alpine onyx
yep
manic latch
"On 1 May the German crewmen left the ship and returned to Germany. Thereafter, the American crew had significant difficulties in keeping the ship's propulsion system operational—eleven of her twelve boilers failed after the Germans departed"
eternal veldt
Sure, but at least there's no fire on board
hollow wind
"On 1 May the German crewmen left the ship and returned to Germany. Thereafter, ...
That's a lot of damage
alpine onyx
Gotta know how to operate them properly
eternal veldt
Now the Normandie... that one, I can't defend
alpine onyx
here is a 12600 page manual
manic latch
Sure, but at least there's no fire on board
Yeah thank God it was a cruiser not a dd
alpine onyx
read it carefully
spring briar
Now the Normandie... that one, I can't defend
spring briar
should've let us fill SS US with spray cheese
spring briar
In Burgundy
don't even
dapper parcel
US damage control didn't (and still don't) have a great track record when it comes to dockside fires
spring briar
last one was that heli carrier?
eternal veldt
Bonnie Dick
manic latch
last one was that heli carrier?
Bonhomme Richard
dapper parcel
there's also bunch of subs that got sabotaged
tough quail
tfw the usn got it's dick slapped
hollow wind
US damage control didn't (and still don't) have a great track record when it com...
I mean theres one case where a explosion of another ship spread the fire into another battleship and yknow what happens next
eternal veldt
scrapping the dick
hollow wind
Pearl harbour flashbacks
eternal veldt
oof, sounds painful
spring briar
pearl harbor was probably the most valuable lesson the USN could've gotten
manic latch
there's also bunch of subs that got sabotaged
It was about their steel right? Corruption I think
dapper parcel
imagine letting it burn for 4 days
hollow wind
thanks yamamoto
Well he didn't quite agree to pearl harbor attack
eternal veldt
Then US taught Japan a lesson
spring briar
then US taught US a lesson?
hollow wind
And it got worse when the US carriers aren't in the harbor
eternal veldt
at least no downfall, because...yikes
hollow wind
And it got worse when the US carriers aren't in the harbor
yikes
desert agate
pearl harbour was basically yamamotos idea
chilly osprey
The submarine steel thing was more about the manufacturer skipping one of the required test phases they considered pointless
chilly osprey
But the navy felt otherwise
desert agate
he pushed incredibly hard against GHQ for it
manic latch
The submarine steel thing was more about the manufacturer skipping one of the re...
Huh
desert agate
the only reason he was allowed to do Pearl was by threatening to resign
hollow wind
man fr just said I do attack or I will die of cringe
eternal veldt
Forgot if he did the same for Midway
chilly osprey
iirc specifically it was a test for extreme cold temperatures you can't even find in the ocean, but, again, the navy felt it was necessary
desert agate
he did yes
dapper parcel
It was about their steel right? Corruption I think
Nah, just the usual bored yard worker burning shits
manic latch
Why Japan had to attack Pearl Harbor
hollow wind
man fr just said I do attack or I will die of cringe
Same for midway hell nah
eternal veldt
Only remembered that the IJA was breathing down his neck after Doolittle
hollow wind
Why Japan had to attack Pearl Harbor
To crush US fleet so they don't crush them when they invade other islands
chilly osprey
It was a way of giving themselves breathing space and to try and strike a major morale blow against the US
desert agate
doolittle ironically gave yamamoto the support he needed from GHQ and the IJA to launch his midway operation
eternal veldt
A preemptive strike to cripple the US fleet while commencing simultaneous invasions of the Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaya, and Singapore
hollow wind
Combination of the US and UK full might of the navy is going to destroy their navy completely
dapper parcel
iirc specifically it was a test for extreme cold temperatures you can't even fin...
It is necessary due to the potential of refigeration from air expansion
hollow wind
Combination of the US and UK full might of the navy is going to destroy their na...
The moment the war begins
eternal veldt
It was hoped that the shock would be enough to bring the US to the negotiation table, while keeping what land they had claimed
hollow wind
It was hoped that the shock would be enough to bring the US to the negotiation t...
But US big so n o
spring briar
It is necessary due to the potential of refigeration from air expansion
adiabatic expansion
alpine onyx
ayy
spring briar
so now only got the thesis left
alpine onyx
nice
eternal veldt
Thing is, if Pearl wasn't attacked, the situation for the US Pacific could have been worse
eternal veldt
The original envisioned idea was that US declares war, and they would sail all the way to the Philippines
eternal veldt
Through Zengen Sakusen (gradual weakening battles), the US fleet would be gradually weakened
spring briar
island hopping my beloved
eternal veldt
and by the time they reach the Philippines, the Japanese would show up and finally beat the crippled US fleet to death, Tsushima style
by doing Pearl, none of this is achieved
chilly osprey
FWIW, the US had abandoned that strategy by this point
hollow wind
It all started when the US did an embargo
spring briar
FWIW, the US had abandoned that strategy by this point
they abandoned it after the scrapping of the Sodak didn't they?
chilly osprey
It was in the 1930s iirc, after a lot of wargaming
spring briar
mhm
chilly osprey
I have to go try and dig it out of a Friedman book, gimme a sec
spring briar
I think Ryan Semansky has a good explanation of it in his video about the Kongos
eternal veldt
Looks like I have to revisit Kaigun
eternal veldt
Zengen Sakusen is pretty optimistic anyway in the first place
and assumes the US would still continue to sail to the Philippines no matter what happens
dapper parcel
I think they want, or at least entertain the depature from mahanian all the way back to the rainbow plans
eternal veldt
Something something, USS Kamchatka 
spring briar
it all started when Japan fixated on BB's
hollow wind
That they fcked up
eternal veldt
Remember, they loaded up five tankers full of precious oil to sail from Formosa to Japan
a few days later, all five were sunk thanks to US subs
hollow wind
Remember, they loaded up five tankers full of precious oil to sail from Formosa ...
Tokyo express?
Yep
eternal veldt
what no escort does to a mf
hollow wind
what no escort does to a mf
No convoy escort moment
alpine onyx
hollow wind
And convoy strike
alpine onyx
Load them with some drum cans
spring briar
the USN took all of Vichy's luck stat after Casablanca
and used it in 1943 onwards
alpine onyx
no spare torpedoes
spring briar
alpine onyx
more drum cans
eternal veldt
Load them with some drum cans
Hey, don't forget the WG42s
They give you more points
and what was it, the Daihatsus
alpine onyx
now you getting banned
eternal veldt
Oh fuck, please no
alpine onyx
lel
eternal veldt
Gomenasorry
hollow wind
dapper parcel
Load them with some drum cans
Better yet
Load them with some drum cans
Unload them in the middle of the sea and let them floats to the shore
chilly osprey
Ah, so, 1934 is the magic year when the US realized they couldn't actually get to the Philippines before Japan took them.
eternal veldt
Which Friedman book is that from? Battleships?
hollow wind
https://youtu.be/ZXF1sHkHAZc
Germany was screwed the moment the enigma code got cracked to pieces
alpine onyx
Germany was screwed the moment they engaged in yet another war vs absurdly superior opponents
hollow wind
Germany was screwed the moment the enigma code got cracked to pieces
What not effective sub convoy raiding does to an mf
hollow wind
What not effective sub convoy raiding does to an mf
And declaring war on the usa
chilly osprey
1935 on they went with a different strategy that called for taking advanced bases before a final push
alpine onyx
Reminder that in terms of naval warfare they were already on the backfoot before the US got involved
chilly osprey
Which Friedman book is that from? Battleships?
Winning a Future War: War Gaming and Victory in the Pacific War
alpine onyx
After May 1941 (loss of Bismarck) they significally cut down the surface operations in open waters
hollow wind
https://youtu.be/ZXF1sHkHAZc
Just saw a sub snap in half after asw bombs hit that German subs
alpine onyx
Pearl Harbor was in December 1941
hollow wind
Just saw a sub snap in half after asw bombs hit that German subs
Nice
spring briar
MN and RM doing basically nothing beyond 1943
imagine
alpine onyx
so can make nice interactions of Bismarck being all shocked at how the KM goes against the US Navy
alpine onyx
"What do you think you're doing?!?"
chilly osprey
looks at 80,000,000 tons of Allied shipping escorted by Italian ships from September 1943 to the end of the war
spring briar
*looks at 80,000,000 tons of Allied shipping escorted by Italian ships from Sept...
you and I both know noone cares about that phoe
chilly osprey
I know...
hollow wind
They definitely didn't call the navy nor the airforce gay back then
spring briar
alpine onyx
Littorio in the pacific sounds like one hell of an experience
spring briar
if only Richie had been able to intercept Haguro...
eternal veldt
Scharnhorst faces NC or a SoDak 
spring briar
alpine onyx
would you even seperate the fuel lines between Littorio and the oiler?
or just keep em connected?
chilly osprey
I mean, you've got about as much range with a Littorio as you do a KGV
eternal veldt
Parallel refuelling all the way to the battlefield, baybee
hollow wind
It's bri'ish navy time
alpine onyx
When my cruising range allows me to perform coastal defense duties of the US East coast while operating from Germany
that's daijoubu
chilly osprey
I know at-sea refueling was practiced before the war, I just don't know if it was side-by-side like the US and MN or ahead like with the RN
dapper parcel
hey sirene
good luck finding diesel in Sri lanka
Sri Lanka was actually quite major port 
spring briar
Sri Lanka was actually quite major port <:DunktsukiStare:661087783619788812>
but why would they give diesel to the germans
hollow wind
What standing at a port doing nothing does to a German ship mf
manic latch
would you even seperate the fuel lines between Littorio and the oiler?
Tfw even Soyuz had more range than Littorio irrc and that says something
alpine onyx
rated for more range
hollow wind
Sri Lanka was actually quite major port <:DunktsukiStare:661087783619788812>
Well know it's a major economy collapse
spring briar
eternal veldt
Please don't talk about current events here.
dapper parcel
Just steam slower smh
It isn't that hard to squeeze out ranges
alpine onyx
If I read tomorrow that Soyuz cruising range got calculated the same way the RN calculated the range of the KGVs I wouldn't be surprised
hollow wind
What standing at a port doing nothing does to a German ship mf
Those ships were tough to survive such bombings
chilly osprey
I would not be surprised if it was overly optimistic
spring briar
source: my auxiliary machinery TDS
eternal veldt
if only Richie had been able to intercept Haguro...
How far off?
alpine onyx
"What do you mean the cruising range must include fuel consumption of my auxiliary machinery?"
chilly osprey
if only Richie had been able to intercept Haguro...
See, this is why I messed around with making an alt-history scenario where the landing forces at Leyte Gulf had a Franco-Italian covering force and met the Center Force.
Ultimate battleship fight of history goes to us, get rekt Anglos
alpine onyx
"I thought we can just keep those shut off entirely?"
eternal veldt
uh
spring briar
See, this is why I messed around with making an alt-history scenario where the l...
richie scoring succesfull underwater hits
oh nvm the USN didn't install those plates in the AP cap
eternal veldt
I'd be fucking scared if it was a Mogador or Le Fantasque doing Johnston's move
alpine onyx
And in some cases even if your math is correct the real world performance can be a good bit different
spring briar
I'd be fucking scared if it was a Mogador or Le Fantasque doing Johnston's move
in what way
eternal veldt
Maximum turbo 43 knots, then slow down and launch torps
or beat the shit out of the approaching DDs, whichever works
alpine onyx
Looking at Deutschland not meeting the cruising range calculated. Meant to hit like 19,000nm at 15kn, they had to lower it to 17,000nm
hollow wind
I'd be fucking scared if it was a Mogador or Le Fantasque doing Johnston's move
imagine seeing a battleship going into the enemy fleet and shooting her cannons at point blank range
dapper parcel
"I thought we can just keep those shut off entirely?"
Hey, you don't need electricity if you only (and really only) want to go from A to B
Nor you need half of the crews surviving
hollow wind
imagine seeing a battleship going into the enemy fleet and shooting her cannons ...
And have her magazine blow after getting shot at
And knocking out some ships
spring briar
How far off?
Forewarned of the Allied operation, the Japanese cruiser turned back, but
after the transport reached Car Nicobar without interception on 14 May,
Haguro again sortied from Singapore. This time she was located by Avengers
flying from the accompanying escort carriers. The 26th Destroyer Flotilla,
which was well advanced, launched a pursuit, while Richelieu and
Cumberland headed for a point 75nm off the northernmost tip of Sumatra to
bar the cruiser’s path. Haguro then attempted to flee, with the British ships in
full chase. She was 200nm ahead of Richelieu but was limited to 25 knots,
and Richelieu and Cumberland charged along at a sustained 27 knots. They
were 50nm northwest of the cruiser when news reached them that Haguro
had been sunk by ships of the 26th Destroyer Flotilla.
eternal veldt
in what way
or in Phoenix's case, the delusion that the Capitanis and Le Fantasques operate together
spring briar
dream
eternal veldt
Get fucked IJN Desdiv
eternal veldt
spring briar
tough quail
the monkeys paw curls
eternal veldt
And, torpedoes on both sides to boot
tough quail
they run into inazuma and ikazuchi
eternal veldt
So if you're bold enough, you can charge right in the middle to do more harrassment
alpine onyx
Can I insert a scenario where a Zedbote outruns Shimakaze?
hollow wind
IJN withnessing a DD other than Shima going over 40 knots
Gas gas gas I'm gonna step on the gas tonight I'm going to torpedo an entire task force
dapper parcel
I wonder if the whole navy even know that Shima is that fast
tough quail
no because even fantasy has a limit
dapper parcel
Considering how compartmentalized IJN was
hollow wind
Gas gas gas I'm gonna step on the gas tonight I'm going to torpedo an entire tas...
And dodge shells at point blank
eternal veldt
Shima was not at Samar, is she?
tough quail
unless Shima just got bombed
alpine onyx
I mean, some of them did break the 41kn mark during trials
eternal veldt
She was getting pounded at Ormoc if I recall
alpine onyx
so it's not entirely out of the question
tough quail
boiler go die
hollow wind
boiler go die
One hit to the engine and boiler room now it's a normal destroyer speed
eternal veldt
*me dreaming of the French ships being used in the scenario's they were built fo...
La Gals skullfucking the Aganos
dapper parcel
Don't you know Agano is the best CL?
spring briar
Can't question the authority of the German Wikipedia
say sike rn
tough quail
konigsberg
hollow wind
Ah yes Mers El Kebir
hollow wind
Ah yes Mers El Kebir
alpine onyx
Nah, Königsberg should be able to handle that
hollow wind
Wonder what happened there
alpine onyx
and oddly enough has just the right armor arrangement to withstand those wannabe SAP shells
dapper parcel
At least Kberg got decent gun
even if everything else falls apart
eternal veldt
boiler go die
Thing is, Shima's boilers died allegedly because of BMG holes being leaky
I certainly hope the Le Fantasques doesn't have that as armour
chilly osprey
Found it. This was roughly more OrBat for the scenario (assumed history remained kind of similar up to the Italian armistice, so this is still a reduced RM and MN.
Not 100% sure about having the Duilio's there, but it was an unrealistic scenario to begin with
alpine onyx
The Königsbergs did go through a wide range of storms pre war and during the war through some more (for as long as they lived, that is), I am not that worried about them falling apart
chilly osprey
yeah I wanted a seperate category for fleet CLs and then the unarmored CLs/scouts/flotilla leaders
dapper parcel
The only unrealistic thing here is IJN ships not operating in pairs
chilly osprey
There are probably flew things scarier as an Agano or DD than having Bertin bearing down on you, backed by a trio of Capitani Romani
eternal veldt
4 Le Fantasques
manic latch
Gremyashchy