Turenne
#history
spring briar
manic latch
Ok I can go with Turenne
shrewd pecan
Foch has already historically been a carrier
spring briar
why is it a bad name
manic latch
How about Joffre
spring briar
NO
eternal veldt
How about you call her Jean Bart and send her off to patrol off Somali then 
spring briar
fuck that man killer
shrewd pecan
Richelieu đïž
spring briar
actually we should probably not name carriers after people
let's call her Lorraine
shrewd pecan
Normandy
remote monolith
babe wake up yet another new Abelisaurid shows up, not itsnot that big, as usual, but still freakish https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-dinosaur-species-with-bulldog-like-face-uncovered-in-Egypt-180980263/
fierce sparrow
bulldog like face...
eternal veldt
Flugzeug-Avion Elsace
remote monolith
<:WarZoom:771757087092244511> bulldog like face...
oh yeah, Abelisaurid faces are freaky even for theropod standards
shrewd pecan
đïž Norman the conqueror
eternal veldt
Fixed
desert agate
I have angered the french
desert agate
fierce sparrow
Norman the Conqueror? that doesn't fit well
eternal veldt
Actually
remote monolith
have you French not used Pepin as a name for anything? It sounds like a decently cool name from a series of decent majordomos
shrewd pecan
eh fuck it piss of everyone around France, build two of them, name the first one Saar and the 2nd one William the Conqueror
desert agate
WILLIAM
remote monolith
or hell, use Merovingian
maiden citrus
oh yeah, Abelisaurid faces are freaky even for theropod standards
makeup time
spring briar
Guillaume le conquérant
fierce sparrow
remote monolith
makeup time
look at those beauties
fierce sparrow
why not named after one of the 3 musketeers..?
remote monolith
how about after Rollo?
fierce sparrow
Rollo maybe yes -ish...
fierce sparrow
spring briar
Roland
remote monolith
too mainstream,
remote monolith
how about Assurancetourix?
spring briar
Rochambeau
eternal veldt
Or...just go harder and call her Sans Pareil
manic latch
Notredamus
fierce sparrow
eternal veldt
Actually, I forgot the best name of them all
spring briar
"germany you can't just abuse your larger population to win wars by marching on paris"
eternal veldt
France, just France
remote monolith
here's a good name, Panoramix
fierce sparrow
So... no Vercingetorix?
eternal veldt
Obelix
maiden citrus
I have half a mind to give that sad looking wallaby a speech bubble so hit can use it for a reaction image
eternal veldt
People literally go ahead and call her a fatty
spring briar
remote monolith
People literally go ahead and call her a fatty
on the other hand she gets a pass on saying "these Britons are crazy!" anytime she wants
eternal veldt
... I dont want to know what "magic potion" is brewed on board.
Also have a tendency to shit on Italy.
spring briar
Anything but charles de gaulle, nivelle, petain is fine
spring briar
Shut
fierce sparrow
Gamelin...
and pls don't name after a certain Admiral in an infamous Mers-el-KĂ©bir.
... for CV
manic latch
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0tZBTxAjks4&t=76s
spring briar
eternal veldt
Could be worse
manic latch
eternal veldt
Laborde or Darlan
Both instantly would have France up at arms
Remember, the French community on WoWS was absolutely livid when a new commander was revealed and looks awfully like Darlan
eternal veldt
... Turns out it's just a Russian bloke that bears too much resemblence to him
manic latch
shrewd pecan
đïž just think about it, all of Europe had Napoleon living rent free in their heads
spring briar
delicate beacon
Oh wow, replacing one image reduced the file size of my book by 3mb 
It's discord shareable now. 
remote monolith
... Turns out it's just a Russian bloke that bears too much resemblence to him
ah yes, he's not Francois Darlan, he's actually Fyodor Darlanov
spring briar
eternal veldt
What kind of image takes up that much space
... Sang, did you eat another blueprint?
spring briar
What kind of image takes up that much space
Map of the HRE in 1444
eternal veldt
ah yes, he's not Francois Darlan, he's actually Fyodor Darlanov
The fix was hilariously simple too
Add a big moustache to his face
spring briar
desert agate
eager dove
Soviets got nae naeâd by the Chinese
Atleast theyâve finally graduated from cope slope academy
tender monolith
ugly
fierce sparrow
eager dove
Itâs too small, narrow and long
spring briar
it's absolutely tiny
desert agate
Lift layout is shit too
eternal veldt
No masts too, but I suspect those will be added later.
chilly osprey
Yeah, not a fan of the superstructure either
chilly osprey
Lift layout is shit too
It's basically just doing the same thing as Type 002.
It's important to remember, as much as Type 003 is a major leap forward, with it being CATOBAR and all, it is still very much an iterative ship like everything else the PLAN does. Structurally there is a lot that is carried over from the earlier carriers - the elevators probably being the greatest example.
eager dove
I expect a lot of issues still
Although of course they wonât be public
First real domestic designed and built carrier, far larger and with EMALS
No way there isnât gonna be problems
chilly osprey
Yeah, naturally we're never going to hear about any development issues they have
Unless it's something extremely obvious
Or they show off more footage of them demonstrating how not to do damage control
delicate beacon
Tiny French cruiser. 
manic latch
I expect a lot of issues still
See that's why I think Type 003 as test platform
Since Type 004 will be a thing for China's 6 carrier plan
Problems that occur on 003 should be fixed for 004's construction or design
Like how Gerald's problems are going to be fixed for her sisters
Especially the Enterprise will get more operational data
For French's PANG. I don't think France will build their own EMAL, but purchase it from US. Like they purchased steam catapults from US for Gaulle
For British? I think they will stick to cope slopes for a long while
eager dove
I donât even think 004 will be much different
Nuclear propulsion for your first major combatant is a huge leap and will cause many issues
manic latch
I donât even think 004 will be much different
I do belive it may receive Nuclear reactors. Better for emals
They have to start from somewhere
It could be also bigger than 003. Reaching to Ford's level
eager dove
I mean I do not think 004 will be much different than 003 in regard to being a test bed
Your first nuclear powered large vessel is a big hurdle
Especially with chinas issues and inexperience with nuclear power
manic latch
True on that. But they need experience.
Maybe diesel instead like QE class?
Safer option I guess
But still. China passing from ramps to emals does show they can take risks
So nuclear 004 is option for me
eager dove
Yea itâs expected
But it will have issues
It takes many decades to mature your design and operations for carriers
chilly osprey
Six carrier force includes the older carriers
So if Type 004 still needs improvements before they build a multi-ship class, well, that isn't exactly going to put the PLAN's carrier force in a brilliant position come the 2040s
manic latch
So if Type 004 still needs improvements before they build a multi-ship class, we...
Wonder if model change will stop at 004. Like building 3 of 004 class.
Or going for improved designs as 005 006
Will be interesting
chilly osprey
Remains to be seen
eager dove
So if Type 004 still needs improvements before they build a multi-ship class, we...
Better get to work building a top tier carrier battle group ability
USN and USAF personnel have been waiting decades to get a shot at sinking a carrier
LRASM, JSM, Mark 48âs, MST
Better be up on your game if they come to a conflict or itâs bye bye carriers
manic latch
Best air defense. It cancels the pilot or the operator who shot a missile at her
Then cancels the missile as well
manic latch
yes school children and maritime weaponry
Should be more often
manic latch
<:LaffeyStare:585585240236621864>
Also I know Manjuu wants it so bad right now
Do it Manjuu
spring briar
Should be more often <:TOOBASED:797584356403183617>
ivory ridge
That looks fucking stupid
fierce sparrow
manic latch
That looks fucking stupid
Such maidenless behavior
ivory ridge
You're literally simping for ch*nese military hardware
fierce sparrow
ummm what is this?
manic latch
You're literally simping for ch*nese military hardware
It's all I have left to continue Soviet legacy 
she is a distant cousin of Ulyanovsk
ivory ridge
manic latch
tough quail
<:feelssadman:618571895926947860> she is a distant cousin of Ulyanovsk
settling for china building off hand me downs is just sad
spring briar
ivory ridge
twilit plume
The timer before the first mechanical failure has started
frigid karma
TBF Chinese navy probably has far better carriers
No cope slope to start with
It basically looks like kuznetsov is the hand me down at this point
dusty kraken
Speaking of kuznetsov how is it doing
delicate beacon
Kuznetsov possible states:
[_] on fire
[x] in drydock
[_] both
dusty kraken
Where the option that says a crane fell on it
tough quail
It basically looks like kuznetsov is the hand me down at this point
..kuznetzov is 40 years old my guy
and i said "building off of"
dusty kraken
We're now 40 years away from the 1980s
tough quail
and about 40 years off from qwerty sprouting that second brain cell
fierce sparrow
40 years old... ohno
tough quail
well, 38 if you count completion date
manic latch
..kuznetzov is 40 years old my guy
Nah they will keep bullying her despite her age
Wait
When you forget Gerald Ford is almost 10 years old now 
Now this is a good crest
Ship is perfectly detailed, F18 and 35 is a nice touch. Kennedy at back with a Moon reperesent Space race?
CIX means 109 I guess. But what for
ivory ridge
No cope slope to start with
...on one of them
manic latch
Type 001: Varyag. Sister of Kuznetsov
Type 002: Improved design of Varyag. Can be called sub Kuznetsov class with good improvements
Type 003: Marriage between Soviet and West designs. Got the elevator design of Kuznetsov while emals from West
Type 004: Could be nuclear and slighty larger version of 003 with some design changes. Maybe even 4 catapult and 3 elevators like Americans
We will see
Catapult gang
Charles De Gaulle
Nimitz sisters
Ford class
Type-003 Fujian
Cope Slope gang
Kuznetsov
Type 001 and 002 (Liaoning, Shandong)
Vikrant
Vikramaditya
Cavour
Garibaldi till Trieste
Anadolu
Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales
Canberra
Juan Carlos I
Who I miss
ivory ridge
Garibaldi till Trieste is commissioned
manic latch
Fuck I missed Gari
ivory ridge
Then there are the STOVL carriers without slope like the Izumos and american LHDs
manic latch
Ye they got their own gang
ivory ridge
Then there are the sloped carriers without planes like the turkish and australian JCIs
manic latch
Then there are the sloped carriers without planes like the turkish and australia...
Slope is slope for drones now
Also yeah I also missed Canberra
Let's edit
spring briar
bruh
remote monolith
I know Mark here means this as a comparative illustration, but that doesn't make the rex any less goofy to look at with those mismatched eyes
frigid karma
Even if they werenât mismatched it would still look funny
manic latch
Seems Fujian also got CIW radar upgrade 
Box instead circle
Lmao they edit it
Added United Kingdom
QE supercarrier confirmed
spring briar
desert agate
I'm still upset there's no RAN
spring briar
chilly osprey
No RAN and so many nations at 55% real ships
That's pretty disappointing
I won't lie, the trend of made up ships in historical games really does grind my gears
And it's not like you need them to fill out lines in AL like you do with WoWs
delicate beacon
fixed
delicate beacon
Next up SIAM
spiral cedar
I have been unceasingly and assiduously devoting both my waking and even my sleeping thoughts to submarines, and oil and the oil engine is the germ of their vitality..... The oil engine will govern all sea-fighting, and all sea-fighting is going to be governed by submarines...
Fisher, 1913
âSubmarines,â he insisted to Arnold White on 13 March 1913, âare the coming Dreadnoughts...
In May, Fisher again wrote to Jellicoe, urging that âfor Godâs sake, do get on SOMEHOW with building more submarines at once, no matter what drawbacks.â
And in June, Fisher welcomed the prospect of the hostile naval powers building dreadnoughts that he expected would be useless in war in the face of the submarine. âAustria and Italy,â he explained to Corbett on 22 June 1914, âwill continue to dig out vigorously to build Dreadnoughts against each other, and the Grand-Admiral Köster, the head of the German Navy League, will carry his point for 2 extra Dreadnoughts, so the Triple Alliance will lavish their money on vessels that will be securely blockaded by our submarines, as the Mediterranean and North Sea will be securely locked up.â
spring briar
Fisher was a great advocate for submarines
spiral cedar
Yes
strong plank
alt history where britain conducts unrestricted submarine warfare
ivory ridge
delicate beacon
E-class DD Echo
aka Navarinon
Too lazy to do each european country seperate, it includes poland atm
Greece do be carrying
ivory ridge
ivory ridge
frigid karma
got a link for the spreadsheet
delicate beacon
Ya, DMing
rapid junco
I'm surprised you included the J class
Which never came to us
And those two Amazonas class? 
zealous vine
Have there been tactics in avoiding torps by observing enemy torpedo launchers directly?
(I assume though at such distances, you have better things to worry about)
frigid karma
Cant really see them
cinder escarp
tower of hats in tank form
tender monolith
Can you even say that if only one mockup and two turrets were ever built? That isn't different from literally any other tank.
No one builds a first draft of fucking anything
cinder escarp
The Maus went through a hilarious amount of revisions
tender monolith
Too bad none of them saved it from being the dumbest waste of metal on the continent
I was going to say 'since the Yamato class was first built' but for some reason some people like those
dusty kraken
https://twitter.com/Tank_Archives/status/1537835982594138113
This thing from the front bears an uncanny amount of semblance to the mouse droid in star wars lmao
Or should I say Maus droid
tender monolith
Dohoho
tough quail
I was going to say 'since the Yamato class was first built' but for some reason ...
because building a really big battleship doesn't make it stop working as a battleship unlike a tank
there's absolutely zero comparison between them in terms of effectiveness unless you're just aimlessly shitting on the axis for being axis
tender monolith
don't act like that isn't worthwhile
but they could have built two normal size battleships for the same amount of steel is my point
tough quail
that's a bad point though
because that's far more expensive, time consuming, man power intensive, and requires more docks
nothing of which japan was in huge supply of
tender monolith
japan didn't have a huge supply of steel either
tough quail
it would've taken much longer to build 5-6 treaty size battleships for japan, and costed them out the ass
unless they started cancelling carriers for it
tender monolith
fine whatever yamato was the best thing they could have built rah rah
tough quail
it's counter intuitive to surface level thinking because YO they're FUCKING HUGE
but just doing a handful of huge battleships is in effect pretty much the budget version of a full five ship class of treaty BBs
or multiple classes
tender monolith
well i suppose i did come here to learn boats since i'm ok on tanks
sorry for being short with you earlier
tough quail
it's aight
junior trench
the Yamatos are literally the only modern* BBs Japan ever had
so uh
I sure hope they do something exceptional with them
because they're the only ones they're building before shit hits the fan
*treaty/post-treaty
tough quail
another counter intuitive thing is that uh
battleships are dirt fucking cheap ton for ton
they're basically bulk buying for warships
tough quail
it's kind of why germany had like four "modern" battleships
but jack shit of everything else
tough quail
how is that the case
it's much easier to just build one large ship than a ton of smaller ones
like
you need a dock to build each one
you need to effectively duplicate the electronics
chunks of the propulsion
junior trench
the hard part of building a ship makes up a small percentage of the tonnage when you build large
tough quail
much larger crew sizes
etc, etc
just scaling up the base becomes cheaper and cheaper over time
the crew sizes isn't really part of the initial build tonnage but lifetime costs of smaller ships vs a battleship of equal tonnage is also
muuuch bigger
carriers being fucking nightmares in this regard
maiden citrus
how is that the case
one third a bb's weight is just armoring or other inert materials as opposed to a dd being half engine that needs uber maintenance, as an example
tough quail
yeah you're just slapping straight metal on for loads of it
it's my favorite uno reverse card i like to pull about kriegsmarine-vmf comparisons
four more battleships built!
less cruisers and half the number of destroyers
still poor actually
maiden citrus
jaba has a neat chart for this iirc
remote monolith
Basically in this case the "cheaper" option isn't actually cheaper because even though they're smaller units they each need individual maintenance, have lesser survivability thus higher chances of needing total replacement as opposed to repairs, and less concentrated firepower in one package
tough quail
plus my main point was yamato can still do things a normal sized BB can do
yeah she's a fuel hog but i dont expect her to eat more fuel than two treaty BBs running at the same time
meanwhile maus uh
just can't cross terrain properly at all
remote monolith
this is probably a poor example given my relative lack of knowledge about ships, but maybe an example scenario is this; you need to send a naval unit to coastally bombard an enemy position that needs at least the equivalent of 1 battleships worth of firepower to neutralize. If all you have are destroyers and cruisers, you naturally have to send more than one to compensate the lesser firepower of those units. In turn, this drive up fuel and ammo costs because your running several units to equalize one that can do the job cheaper and potentially faster. Am I on point with this one?
dusty kraken
"Guys our super tank is literally too heavy to cross bridges what should we do"
"Put a snorkel on it"
Bloody geniuses
shrewd pecan
not to play devils advocate regarding the entire maus situation
but to be fair, they never did end up mass producing maus
and everyone was pretty much dicking around tanks that they knew they were never gonna mass produce or be able to realistically field
Maus wise only a handful of Maus hulls were produced and only one functional tank was ever made
cinder escarp
Krupp kept fucking building hull and turret sets till the end
because they never actually canned the contract
tough quail
yeah
shrewd pecan
I mean E-100 was still kicking
tough quail
it's also needed to be taken into context with other German projects
like the tiger 2 and it's dipshit casemate version they actually were trying to mass produce
Ferdinand's kind of get a pass because Porsche was an imbecile and already built the hulls
shrewd pecan
I feel Ferdinand is a worse example than Maus in terms of German procurement incompetence
remote monolith
what do you mean you already produced 90 hulls before you even secure the fucking contract
tough quail
Ferdinand is just salvaging otherwise useless hulls built by hopes and dreams
remote monolith
Ferdinand is just salvaging otherwise useless hulls built by hopes and dreams
and the Elefant a last ditch salvation of the otherwise useless junk of easily burning glorified self propelled guns
tough quail
my nuclear take is that regular ol tigers are fine in context of what they actually are
remote monolith
my nuclear take is that regular ol tigers are fine in context of what they actua...
I mean, Chieftain himself think so right?
They're not bad bad and is perfectly serviceable
tough quail
yes I believe
junior trench
the Tiger I is fit for purpose as a breakthrough/assault tank
it was never used that way
but anyway
shrewd pecan
Krupp kept fucking building hull and turret sets till the end
I can't find any mention suggesting anymore than 7 hulls were ever produced or started production
junior trench
this means the Porsche Tiger is just a proto Porsche 911
tough quail
if what you're asking is what I think you are, yes, the Porsche tiger is actually the first 911
yeap
there we go
dusty kraken
If it's rear wheel drive can it drift
junior trench
according to GuP it can
shrewd pecan
have it burst into flames mid drift to ensure max coolness
junior trench
and apparently Shermans are able to drift while shooting up AT guns based upon actual AARs from the Netherlands
so, sure, why the hell not
drift the Porsche Tiger 911
tough quail
at least this one is visually distinct
humble mulch
Does your tank sliding out of control backwards when going up a hill count as a cool J turn?
tough quail
yes
shrewd pecan
the arma 3 and warthunder tank experience?
cinder escarp
I can't find any mention suggesting anymore than 7 hulls were ever produced or s...
"The question of hull production at Krupp was explored in parallel. As of March 18th, 1944, there were 7 hulls in various stages of completion and 8 sets of plates prepared. There was also enough armour for production of 15 more hulls and 9 turrets"
Krupp cut 30 sets of hull armor plates in '43
tough quail
Pain
anyway can I get one of those cool Italian casemates painted up to look like a Ferrari to counter this new lore
shrewd pecan
I mean they had the material for it kept but I can't really find any mention of them continuing production up to the end of the war
I am reading the same article you're
tough quail
43 is obscenely late to be doing this stupid shit too tbh
shrewd pecan
nvm I'm stupid
or not
"Nevertheless, Krupp continued some work. Six hull and seven turrets (not counting the ones used in the prototypes) were in various stages of completion at the end of the war. However, by mid-July of 1944 it was clear that there was no point in working on either the Maus or its competitor, the E-100. Hitler ordered that the design and production of superheavy tanks should cease. Nevertheless, various work on modernizing the Maus continued until early 1945. Around this time the second prototype received the MB.517 diesel engine. It is not known when this happened, but a letter dated December 1st, 1944, says that the engine was already installed but not yet tested. In any case, these trials would have already been pointless."
seems to be varying levels of work
cinder escarp
Basically Krupp never got an actual contract cancellation, they just kept at it
shrewd pecan
I mean, that's not really as bad it could of been
its not really like the materials being invested anywhere else was gonna change much
tough quail
you would not believe how much steel was wasted on these tanks
the hulls themselves do not tell the whole story
cinder escarp
Only like the first few have the really stupid side plate layout
tough quail
oh thank god
cinder escarp
The whole, "we need more room for the suspension" so we'll mill out the 20cm plate to 16cm over the running gear
shrewd pecan
I'm guessing 15 hulls worth of Maus steel wouldn't of produced a game changing amount of other armored vehicles
cinder escarp
how dare you propose using separate 16cm and 20cm plates and just mating them, that would produce a weak point!
tough quail
still though this is kinda like arguing that purposefully driving your car into a lake isn't so bad
because you could've shot yourself in the head instead
shrewd pecan
I mean, you can basically make the argument about any prototype tank that doesn't end up in mass production
while I agree Maus is a extreme example of material use considering its a 188 ton tank
the US produced like 100 T23s/T20s and never ended up using them
tough quail
it's an extreme amount of material use in tandem with other stupid prototypes and multiple other mammoth dipshit tanks actually in full production
cinder escarp
The Porsche air-cooled V-12s proved to be a disaster
tough quail
in 1943, when they've experienced literally more tank combat than anyone else in the world
it is absolutely horrifyingly incompetent in it's full context
shrewd pecan
đïž 70 ton tanks in WW2 when what they already had was good enough for purpose
tough quail
they should know more than anyone what a good tank is and instead they chronically refuse to learn any lessons at all
shrewd pecan
idk I'm not defending tiger II or Jadgtiger or anything, I agree those designs should of never been mass produced nor really left the drawing board
I agree maus should of never left the drawing board
tho, I don't think Maus is the worse example of German procurement incompetence, especially when you have Porsche tiger sitting around alongside jadgtiger
cinder escarp
So: there are four key figures in German tank design & procurement (one of which is a group and not a individual). These are... Big Daddy H, Kniepkampfy Chair, Albert "Speer Hoodie" Speer, and the poor suffering professor porsche and his panzerkomission.
shrewd pecan
regarding actual material use, how intensive even were the maus prototypes
like for example how many panzer IVs hulls could you of produced with the material needed for a maus
cinder escarp
And programmatic complexity is a mess - here's a diagram drawn during the Maus program, with funny windmill edited out
shrewd pecan
đïž visualizing it a bit would probably help since obviously I'm agreeing with you if those materials for 15 maus hulls was enough to produce a few divisions worth of panzer IVs
cinder escarp
Most damage to German AFV production was done by H and Kniepkamp, with Speer being given the impossible task to meet military procurement needs despite the other issues, and Porsche being dragged along for whatever ride the leaders cooked up.
The Panzerkomission was actually a creation of German industrial firms who were tired of being jerked around by constantly changing decision making, and so set up a board lead by Porsche to discuss the issue. It had pretty much no legal power, but the angery mustache man was a huge porsche simp.
So whatever Porsche said always, always affected him.
(It dates back to the angery lad's days in Austria, where Porsche was a huge national hero - he had become something of an idol in adolf's eyes)
The entire trend of German vehicles getting big cat names came from this - Porsche jokingly referred to one of his (several) VK 45 concepts as a "tiger" and it stuck. Adolf liked it so much he not only made it official but then made it actual policy to give out predatory, mainly feline, names to AFVs
shrewd pecan
moving past the entire maus thing
anyone have any idea if this designation "M1047" is a real vehicle that's apparently a LAV-25 variant
all I can find is a mention in the Sheridan's wikipage and some weird ass RP nation thing that for some reason has a wiki
"In 1987, the Army tested a version of the LAV-25, classified as the M1047. The Army determined that these were unsuitable for LAPES, and could not match the firepower of the Sheridan. Congress did not favor the M1047,[55] though a few were deployed with the 3/73rd Armor in the Gulf War.[47] The Marine Corps also developed the LAV-105 to meet its requirements,"
cinder escarp
Correct, mixture of various issues including congress, DoD priorities (gibe MGS plox) and the like
shrewd pecan
" Of course, had timing and this been the sole problem, the LAV-105 might well have entered service at a much later date, but the second problem was much more serious. It wasn't discovered until the Marines finally began to fire live ammunition from the LAV-105 in the mid-1990s that the LAV I chassis and suspension could not withstand the recoil of a 105 mm gun --- not even a low recoil force gun. The recoil caused the vehicle to buck violently (reminiscent of the M551 Sheridan light tank of earlier years), overwhelmed and seriously damaged the suspension, and caused widespread stress cracking throughout the chassis', including its Bisalloy 500 steel armor.
The USMC later in the 1990s attempted to resurrect the LAV-AG program later that decade, via the LAV-90. This vehicle was essentially an LAV I equipped with the Cockerill turret, armed with a smaller Mecar KEnerga 90 mm gun, but the test firings once again overwhelmed the chassis and suspension. After once again rejecting an LAV-AG candidate, the USMC and the industry quickly abandoned the entire concept, and have apparently never spoken of it again."
yeah I wasn't entirely sure what the hell the "M1047" was referring to
wiki article around it with the additional context seems to be entirely bullshit
cinder escarp
Cadillac Gage's insistence on Bisalloy 500 has always been an issue
shrewd pecan
guessing the M1047 designation was never really a thing either
cinder escarp
M1047 was in fact reserved for the LAV-25 itself.
The army was going to buy them for 9th ID
The wacky motorized experimental division up here at Fort Lewis
shrewd pecan
honestly the LAV-25 doesn't seem like the worse platform for the army especially for the time
would of made a good cav scout vehicle for infantry units
shrewd pecan
eh never noticed that Belgium is also planning on phasing out their NH-90s
desert agate
The good ending
spring briar
ivory ridge
" Of course, had timing and this been the sole problem, the LAV-105 might well ...
Weak hull, cringe
manic latch
the US produced like 100 T23s/T20s and never ended up using them
Nah closest example to American Maus is T28/95
T23/20 is more of Panther
While T32 is more of Tiger 2 or Tiger 1 I guess
spring briar
yea
ivory ridge
shrewd pecan
T23/20 is more of Panther
Iâm referring to the fact the US produced 100 tanks it never used
thatâs a waste of production time and resources that could of gone for example to 100 Shermanâs
manic latch
thatâs a waste of production time and resources that could of gone for example t...
same for US heavy tank projects during WW2
Shame T32 was looking sexy
shrewd pecan
I was pointing out that Germany wasn't the only nation wasting resources on prototype designs that went nowhere
desert agate
I'm on board the titty maid
shrewd pecan
load the shells and destroy that god forsaken gas station
shrewd pecan
đïž this entire time I could of compared TOG to maus
while not as bad obviously
since they bothered building two of the damn things
that and they aren't nearly as resource intensive as Maus
o T23 was worse than I thought
it wasn't just 100 tanks
it was 200+
remote monolith
Tog is better by virtue of being a massively popular meme machine thanks to WoT
shrewd pecan
idk I think the better way to phase what I'm saying is I believe it would be better to frame maus better as a vehicle that ended up being a prototype/test design that went nowhere like various other prototype vehicles during the war
I don't think its the worse example of its type in terms of resources invested and it has the virtue of never actually being put in mass production
in terms of waste for a prototype vehicle T23 and the Porsche tiger are out there
and in terms of wasted on actual german vehicles I think the King Tiger and Jadgtiger outweigh it due to the sheer fact of both being mass produced
desert agate
Spon are you taking a world travel tour
Just Europe
ivory ridge
Wdym you were in turkey /s
manic latch
Wdym you were in turkey /s
ITS TURKIYE NOT TURKEY!!!1111
dapper parcel
đŠ
ivory ridge
ITS TURKIYE NOT TURKEY!!!1111
Already gave my opinion of that on another server
They can call it whatever they want in turkish
But english is english
And kindly fuck off
manic latch
manic latch
But english is english
Oh that depends. If Turkey gets more popular, then dictionary can be suddenly changed to Turkiye
For now they are not relevant enough for people to call it Turkiye instead Turkey
ivory ridge
That's not really how it works
desert agate
manic latch
Lick it
tender monolith
Sounds like you didn't try hard enough
desert agate
It's England I don't want the death pentalty
eternal veldt
I can't believe Hit got deported
chilly osprey
most positive procurement effort they could embark on ATM is trying to procure new political leadership
dapper parcel
It's just interim, supposedly. They can just pick whatever.
Although the timing isn't great to fumble around
manic latch
~~most positive procurement effort they could embark on ATM is trying to procure...
Got a year at least for that. And that's if ruling government lose the voting
Declares war on Greece to keep the power
rapid junco
@spring briar Do you like Mirage? 
spring briar
of course
rapid junco
spring briar
absolutely amazing plane
rapid junco
Do you believe those planes here intercepted a Cuban IL-62 during the Falklands War?
spring briar
dunno
rapid junco
Besides the Avro Vulcan our F-5s intercepted
spring briar
the cold war doesn't really interest me
dapper parcel
Hey, at least the flying pencils are fun to look at
rapid junco
So basically a IL-62 of the Cubana de AviaciĂłn invaded our airspace
It was carrying the Cuban ambassador to Buenos Aires
It was quickly detected and two Mirages of AnĂĄpolis air base were scrambled to intercept it
It was a rainy night, and the IL-62 was not that cooperative until it's pilot saw the two Mirages on his side
The Cubans were so confident that weren't going to be intercepted
That the ambassador took his grandson on the flight
ivory ridge
Hey, at least the flying pencils are fun to look at
F-104 supremacy
Ignore how Italy decommissioned the last one in like
2004
chilly osprey
Thanks, tortured Eurofighter program
ivory ridge
chilly osprey
1990s just sucked for procurement in general
rapid junco
This one is for you, Undie 
ivory ridge
Me looking at the DDP class destroyers that wont be replaced till the 2030s
chilly osprey
Worst part is the fact there was supposed to be four of them to replace the Impavido-class and Andrea Doria's
But they held off because of the Horizon program
And by the time that produced ships there was only two and the Audace class was retired too
rapid junco
Another time a Mirage was scrambled was in 1988
When a guy hickjacked a Boeing 737 of the VASP
And a single Mirage was scrambled to accompany the flight
chilly osprey
'Hey guys where did all my AAW ships go'
chilly osprey
Warspite fanboys
rapid junco
spring briar
30 years of difference between these two classes
there's also about 30 years between ironclads and super dreadnoughts
lmao
manic latch
So basically a IL-62 of the *Cubana de AviaciĂłn* invaded our airspace
It was car...
shooting down a passenger liner
So what happened to the pilots
rapid junco
I didn't mentioned that they shot down the aircraft 
manic latch
Oh my bad. I thought you guys literally intercept it
rapid junco
They just made it land on BrasĂlia airport
And that's where you discover that the passengers were the Cuban ambassador and his grandson
manic latch
rapid junco
Oh my bad. I thought you guys literally intercept it <:Sadge:866427415051763732>
But we did đ€š
manic latch
Wait can you use word intercept for both situations
rapid junco
Yes... 
rapid junco
Remember that during the Falklands we were a neutral country
manic latch
Nah accidents can happen
rapid junco
That's why we intercepted both a Cuban IL-62 transporting the ambassador to Buenos Aires
And an Avro Vulcan bomber returning from a Black Buck Mission
manic latch
tepid mulch
How did the Europeans use firearms for warfare in the 13th and 14th century? Like the general tactics and strategy in use then
manic latch
How did the Europeans use firearms for warfare in the 13th and 14th century? Lik...
They were horrible on accuracy but loud sound still made physiological damage.
Because of the complex design to repair or use, you had to train your units instead going peasant way of minimal training. So it caused nations to invest on their armies more while also on science to improve it
@tepid mulch here is a good detail for warfare
https://www.historynet.com/gunpowder-weapons-medieval-europe/
frigid karma
WHO ASKED
Not as hilarious as their graf spee vs iowa vid
Theyâll probably make a vid where they compare iowa to a pt boat at this point
manic latch
@spring briar great example of French engineering
In 1965 during the Vietnam War, it was the objective of many attacks by US Air Force and US Navy aircraft which would fail to destroy the bridge until 1972, even after hundreds of attacks
Tfw took 7 years to destroy French build bridge
remote monolith
How did the Europeans use firearms for warfare in the 13th and 14th century? Lik...
for 13th and 14 century gunpowder weapons are still relatively rare for European armies, its only around the early modern period of the 15th that arquebuses and cannons becomes more commonplace
thus necessitating innovations from European countries like full plates and Tercios to fully adapt them into armies
which then leads into 15-17th century warfares being a fairly schizoid era of pike and shot tactics
manic latch
<:thinkzed:586409806169112576>
Well it was sabotaged. Reconstruction begin in 1957
remote monolith
it should be noted too than even when muskets are becoming more commonplace plate armor doesn't actually get obsolete and actually flourished alongside gunpower until the 17-18th century when line infantry begins to replace armored infantry and lighter cavalry replace full plate heavy cavs
and its less because they can't protect wearers anymore and more because by the 17th armies tend to comprise of cheaper mercenaries+professional corps combined with proliferation of guns making armormaking more trouble than its worth than just giving people guns
somber knoll
Even then, nations didn't consider armor concept out of fashion, but it wasn't until WW1 that they experimented again with ballistic breastplates, only to find out that even if it could give a layer of protection against projectiles, you still have to reduce the trauma caused by the bullet's energy. So by WW2 they pretty much abandoned it.
shrewd pecan
body armor was still employed during WW2
Soviets widely employed it
on top of that allied aircrews made wide usage of flak vests and other forms of body armor
remote monolith
personal armor still see usages in some capacity for sure even in WWII and beyond, but there's basically no return to the full plate models of the early modern by the world wars, excepting some cases in WWI like the Arditi
remote monolith
here's a good for how hard it is to punch plate armors with arrows and crossbows https://acoup.blog/2019/06/21/collections-punching-through-some-armor-myths/
basically, unless you're freakishly strong there's really no way both of those can directly penetrate plates
neither do swords and spears, for that matter
somber knoll
remote monolith
of course this just leads to weapons being developed to bypass the armor(warhammers) to techniques designed to aim for weakspots like the armpits
somber knoll
already know the armor myths and the counter developments(I practiced both the western and East Asian variant of the classical fighting arts), so no comments there.
So 2 essentially just recycled WW1's concept, which can be acknowledged due to the limitation of material development of the era as well as other factors.
I found at least one literature that discussed the transition slash "vacuum" era of armor development up to the point where plate carriers started to proliferate but it seems like I lost it.
which also raises my question on that specific era's progression.
manic latch
https://twitter.com/Chieftain_armor/status/1538155289899327489
Kinda true. Seeing the whole model is much better than going assumptions
shrewd pecan
fierce sparrow
I kinda didn't like the EMBT new turret design...
shrewd pecan
why wouldn't it?
for once the Euros were able to make ka turret with a dog house that doesn't stick right into the turret armor
manic latch
why wouldn't it?
Sacrificing armor to give space for electronics.
Risky but still
Need to try
manic latch
Ah. Turret has crew?
shrewd pecan
yes
manic latch
My bad
shrewd pecan
you can clearly see the gunners hatch right there
manic latch
man you ruined it
shrewd pecan
seems like 2 turret, 2 hull
doesn't seem to be a center hatch, looks to be some type of opitcal system only
crew are further back in the turret and the actual parts of the turret with the crew are pretty low profile
the 2 RWSs also suggest the vehicle being mostly likely a 4 man crew
since who the hell would be crewing the 2nd one if it wasn't a 4th crewmember
chilly osprey
Plons
First one for 6° Stormo, so looks like 13° Gruppo at Amendola is at full strength now.
Also I would like to point out that the aircraft pictured is Cameri's 38th F-35, and that plant alone has assembled more stealth aircraft than Russia has in totality
tough quail
what on god's green earth
shrewd pecan
what on god's green earth
EMBT
tough quail
excellent
i want to die post haste
we really are living in the nightmare world where only the east can make new tanks that dont look like complete ass i guess
tough quail
i can at least tell like
it's the same turret philosophy of the leclerc
just more extreme
manic latch
it's the same turret philosophy of the leclerc
Wait a second
So it has autoloader?
Fuck manual.
Next gen gang use auto
tough quail
well obviously
manic latch
Oh fucking great
Yes this girl has great potential
So let's count
Autoloader MBT gang
T series
Leclerc
Type-10
K2?
EMBT
KH-51 Panther
Hopefully the Next gen Abrams. And perhaps Altay if K2 has it
tough quail
K2 is autoloaded yes
manic latch
So by the looks of it. Italy and British will stick to Manual loaders?
And maybe US if New Abrams doesn't have it
chilly osprey
There isn't much clarity on what either is doing in the future
The British are observers to MGCS, and the Italians have wanted to join
manic latch
Chal 3 for British no? Or they will go for new tank?
chilly osprey
Challenger 3 is just a modernization for the Challenger 2. It's fundamentally the same tank
It's a stopgap solution in the same way the Ariete upgrade program is
manic latch
chilly osprey
They want to modernize enough tanks to tide them over (i.e. maintain a minimum capability to operate in a modern combat enviorment) until they can replace the entire fleet
manic latch
I would tell them to join French-Germany program.
But well they are British
chilly osprey
Like I said, they're observers on the program already
Main issue is the Franco-German program is basically revolving around KNDS and nothing else
They've refused to date to let anyone else into the program to cooperate at a higher level
Which is not acceptable to most nations that need specific requirements met or have significant defense industrial bases themselves
Italy atm has been stuck between bashing their heads against the wall that is KNDS and the official Franco-German project, finding an alternative path into the program with Rheinmetall, or trying to figure out an alternative program with other partners such as Poland, Spain, or Israel
The latter of which basically isn't a realistic option
On the one hand, it might seem like a good idea to wait until the MGCS project falls apart and they can try and start a new program with France or Germany, on the other hand they need the new MBTs to be entering service in 2030, so they really don't have much time to wait.
It's not a pretty situation
ivory ridge
So by the looks of it. Italy and British will stick to Manual loaders?
Yes the uh
2 nations not getting a new tank arent getting a new tank
Incredible thinking there
chilly osprey
The hilarious thing is that if the French and Germans were willing to let the Italians and Poles into MGCS it would increase the number of hulls procured by 2.4x. And there probably wouldn't be any more bickering in the program than there already is because the French and Germans are always the ones who cause most of the arguments on European projects
ivory ridge
ivory ridge
shrewd pecan
I'm going to be honest
the capability leap with the next gen tanks how they currently look isn't really justifiable for replacing entire tank fleets unless you're literally operating 1980s leftovers with no modernization
there isn't really any reason to go beyond chally 3 or Ariete since the capability improvements with shit like EMBT don't really justify the investment especially when a lot of the upgrades can just be applied to chally 3 or ariete
K-2 makes more sense since Korea is going from a fleet of K1s and M48s and K-2 is a significant improvement on both of them
and the other nations operating or looking at K-2s are either operating Leopard 2A4s, pissed off at KMW or are operating primarily M60s or Leopard 1s
we'll have to see how EMBT turns out as the program progresses since that thing isn't suppose to be operational until the 2030s but I can see why most nations are just modernizing their current fleets
manic latch
there isn't really any reason to go beyond chally 3 or Ariete since the capabili...
No reason? Perhaps
Will desire exist to get better? It will
shrewd pecan
and?
just modernize your current tanks with the new technologies
its not really like the next gen tanks are gonna have considerable leaps in armor or firepower
manic latch
A sound decision yes. But won't last long. If other nations start getting their next gen. You will somewhat feel the need
Arms race and all
I like it tho. Opens innovation
shrewd pecan
again what do you really gain with the next gen tanks
that can't be applied to current platforms
manic latch
again what do you really gain with the next gen tanks
how about a new platform with existing technologies that's better optimized than older ones?
And with better ideas on how future tech will be. Maybe better designed for future refits
Like Gerald ford for carrier
She is designed for future planes and tech refits in mind
shrewd pecan
ships are different since there's considerable improvements to be made there
and there is only so much you can prolong a ships lifespan
tank wise you can constantly rebuild them
and basically every current tank platform still has room to grow
things like APS, fully digital controls, new fire control systems can all be applied to current gen tanks
manic latch
How about drones
midnight ore
and basically every current tank platform still has room to grow
not that much, have you seen how heavy the latest mods all are?
manic latch
Like the new KH51
midnight ore
they're all pushing 70t
shrewd pecan
and?
shrewd pecan
your telling me the next gen tanks aren't going to be pushing that
again there's not really been any major improvements in armor technology to justify making the tank lighter
manic latch
Well you do hurt the max speed that was designed originally
shrewd pecan
Well you do hurt the max speed that was designed originally
upgrade the transmission
midnight ore
even though its vaporware
shrewd pecan
abrams has basically maintained its top speed despite the weight increases due to transmission upgrades
manic latch
as well as armata
She has larger autoloader to fit longer shells now I think Which older t series can't do
manic latch
So shows importance of next gen
shrewd pecan
since its not a development of the T-64
EMBT or KF51 doesn't really offer any considerable leap to leopard 2 or abrams
ivory ridge
But le funny drone
shrewd pecan
also how the fuck is KF-51 59 tons
manic latch
EMBT or KF51 doesn't really offer any considerable leap to leopard 2 or abrams
But they have autoloader
shrewd pecan
that's only 4 tons lighter than a leopard 2
manic latch
Ain't that advantage
shrewd pecan
autoloaders aren't necessarily a advantage
manic latch
midnight ore
EMBT or KF51 doesn't really offer any considerable leap to leopard 2 or abrams
a new tank with digitization, APS, drones and a much better gun while weighing 11t less seems like a pretty good deal
shrewd pecan
leopard 2A6 is only 63 tons
manic latch
a new tank with digitization, APS, drones and a much better gun while weighing 1...
And autoloader
ivory ridge
It's a 2a4 hull with probably barely additional armor and the turret is probably
midnight ore
autoloaders aren't necessarily a advantage
if the shell weighs 50% more then they are
ivory ridge
Not that armored
midnight ore
It's a 2a4 hull with probably barely additional armor and the turret is probably
it's not a 2a4 hull
man
shrewd pecan
you can throw all of those upgrades on a leopard 2A6
and keep it in relatively the same weight class
manic latch
Autoloader Leo 2 weight 
ivory ridge
You're right, it's worse, it's a lynx hull
shrewd pecan
if the shell weighs 50% more then they are
we aren't at the point where HSTV-L autoloaders are really feasible with 120 MM rounds
again manual loader can load as fast as a autoloader in most cases
you don't really need a autoloader unless you're upsizing the gun
manic latch
again manual loader can load as fast as a autoloader in most cases
Heavier the shell the faster loader will get tired
midnight ore
again manual loader can load as fast as a autoloader in most cases
well i was more talking about that if you're using a 130mm or 140mm gun
manic latch
Don't they
midnight ore
you need one
shrewd pecan
who is fielding a 130 MM or a 140 MM right now?
midnight ore
yeah the 120mm dont need one
manic latch
who is fielding a 130 MM or a 140 MM right now?
KH51
midnight ore
who is fielding a 130 MM or a 140 MM right now?
werent we talking about future MBT's
shrewd pecan
I don't even think
manic latch
what is the point in the 130 or 140 MM?
Better penetration and performance
shrewd pecan
next gen MBTs would be utilizing 130 or 140s
since there's no point
there's been no considerable leap in armor technology to justify it
manic latch
105mm gang :what's the point of 120mm
shrewd pecan
120 also still has plenty of room to grow
đïž M900 out of a 105 had equivalent penetration to a lot of the 90s 120 MM rounds
manic latch
I mean history shows tank guns are keep getting bigger and bigger
shrewd pecan
tank guns have been static for the last 40 years
ivory ridge
Out of very specific 105s while killing barrel life*
desert agate
manic latch
tank guns have been static for the last 40 years
Ye 130mm may change that
midnight ore
120 also still has plenty of room to grow
didn't Rheinmetall just say that their newest l55 variants have basically hit the peak?
manic latch
Drone shells= larger gun
desert agate
Rheinmetall says a lot of things
shrewd pecan
it hasn't
ivory ridge
Hype
manic latch
hmm
ivory ridge
My brother in christ most nato tanks had either prototypes or blueprints for 140mm versions... in the 90s
manic latch
My brother in christ most nato tanks had either prototypes or blueprints for 140...
Was answer to Soviet 152mm MBT projects
Good times
ivory ridge
Also friendly reminder
chilly osprey
Seems kind of impossible to argue about KF51's protection and the like when we basically know nothing about it
manic latch
Why
chilly osprey
KF51 is basically Rheinmetall trying to get sales for anyone who wants to replace their tanks with something newer than Leo 2A6 or A7, and doesn't want to wait for MGCS
i.e. they want to sell to Eastern Europe and the Middle East
shrewd pecan
regarding L/55
US has been squeezing L/55 level experience out of the L/44
and the M256 still has more room to grow
manic latch
i.e. they want to sell to Eastern Europe and the Middle East
Qatar time
shrewd pecan
so again I don't really see any move away from 120 MM
since armor hasn't really made any type of considerable leap
manic latch
US has been squeezing L/55 level experience out of the L/44
So why is that tho
Why US didn't go for L55
shrewd pecan
L/55 didn't work well with abram's stabilization
manic latch
Interesting
shrewd pecan
there was a M1A1 with a L/55 version of the M256 called the M256A1
there was no real point in the L/55 for the US
M256 already ran at higher pressures
and DU just performed better than tungsten
midnight ore
isn't that also partly because the newest US rounds are freakishly long?
shrewd pecan
penetrator is
midnight ore
that's what i meant
shrewd pecan
think another point regarding the next gen MBT discussion
Leopard 2A7V and M1A2C only get up to about 66 tons
reasonably any technologies for lightening future MBTs can be introduced to both platforms
again these tanks have been constantly rebuilt to new spec and still have plenty of growth room
and assuming the Next gen abrams is what it implies a further evolution of the abrams there's no reason why current gen tanks can't be rebuilt with new turrets or other features
shrewd pecan
shrewd pecan
that's short tons
tough quail
yes and that's a m1a2c with barely anything on it
the conversion is still well over 66 tons with trophy installed
shrewd pecan
and?
tough quail
closer to 74 tonnes with APS slapped on
shrewd pecan
platform is still able to operate just fine with the additional weight
midnight ore
idk man, if you can get similar or better capabilities at 25t less, i'd say that's a good deal
also yes
shrewd pecan
midnight ore
bridges and logistics
shrewd pecan
infrastructure already exists in both the German and US armies for supporting these vehicles
midnight ore
ok but what about bum-fuck nowhere?
tough quail
excellent we have fleets of specialized equipment dedicated for supporting our bloated 40 year old chassis
tough quail
its also a good thing that weight has absolutely no detriment to general terrain crossing or bogging down either
shrewd pecan
has it?
mobility for both platforms has remain relatively the same despite the weight increases
midnight ore
has it?
russian tanks weigh a lot less than NATO ones
yet despite that
[CURRENT EVENT]
midnight ore
so yes, tanks do get stuck
tough quail
which definitely means tanks weighing dramatically more will just uh
not get stuck
through the power of witchcraft
shrewd pecan
yeah but are you actually shaving 20 tons off of a tank
tough quail
and it's not like germany or the US are too poor to just finally make a new chassis
like germany is currently doing
shrewd pecan
KF51 as you said is only shaving off some 6 tons
desert agate
Bro making a tank lighter to prevent it bogging just gives you a shittier tank to unbog
shrewd pecan
yeah
midnight ore
Bro making a tank lighter to prevent it bogging just gives you a shittier tank t...
dude, if a newer tank has the same or better capabilities at 20t less, it's not shittier
it's better
midnight ore
20 tons off of a western tank
making a new tank
desert agate
Highly classified but they are
tough quail
by
shrewd pecan
T series tanks are only in the weight class they're due to the compromises made in the design
tough quail
integrating new features into it from a ground up level
instead of slapdash bandaid additions over the years
because you can fit a ton of shit on more efficiently that way
desert agate
Yes and they are literally working on it
midnight ore
like you really think when a leopard 2a7 will finally get all it's APS and other shit slapped on, it wont weigh over 70T?
shrewd pecan
Horse you're gonna have a 55-60 ton tank regardless due to the weight of the armor and systems involved
midnight ore
really?
desert agate
The US hasn't decided that the Abram's is the be all end all of tanks
desert agate
They have actually realised the platform is reaching obsolescence so they're extending the service life while the new mbt program is being worked on
midnight ore
KF51 as claimed here is still 59 tons
seems like integrating and designing things from the ground up reduces weight
who knew
shrewd pecan
realistically you're only shaving off 8 tons for a new more expensive platform
yeah saving 4 tons for a tank germany won't buy
desert agate
And [current event] is not an observation of the be all end all of tanks and tank operations
Tanks were getting bogged in those fields 80 years ago just as hard as they are today
It's the seasonal geography of the area
midnight ore
And [current event] is not an observation of the be all end all of tanks and tan...
i'm not just talking about that
desert agate
Which experiences mass rainfall at this time of year causing the entire ground to turn to mush
midnight ore
new tanks that have those features integrated and have much more room to grow are just a better investment
imo
desert agate
Yes that's why new tanks are being worked on right now
tough quail
fitted out
the leos and abrams are only hoovering around 65 or so tonnes when they're mostly naked
midnight ore
especially since some of the newer upgrade packages are almost as expensive as getting new tanks all together
tough quail
as soon as you start kitting them out with APS and such the weight bloats like mad
tough quail
Yes that's why new tanks are being worked on right now
you're arguing for the same thing my dude
tato's the one going "eh but who cares though?"
desert agate
Yes and new tanks also take a long time to develop and prepare for production
So you know
You need to upgrade what you have
shrewd pecan
I don't think saving 5-10 tons really justifies a new investment unless the platforms are really that much of a improvement
desert agate
To keep it relevant
midnight ore
Yes and new tanks also take a long time to develop and prepare for production
that's the case for every military system
midnight ore
i remember when people were clowning on the f-35 for being a bloated mess
tough quail
I don't think saving 5-10 tons really justifies a new investment unless the plat...
it's not just 5-10 tons
again
midnight ore
and now it's the best plane in the world
shrewd pecan
in their current form I don't think they're really worthwhile
tough quail
its 5-10 tons compared to a naked M1A2C
shrewd pecan
tho that doesn't change the fact the current platforms are indeed aging
tough quail
with a bigger, better gun
and almost certainly better armor given its not stuck with the goofy abrams front plate
midnight ore
it doesn't even have to be the KF-51 specifically, it's just an example
midnight ore
it's fuckin massive
tough quail
they didnt build it out of cardboard
spring briar
Ello guys
shrewd pecan
yeah but its there really much point in going from a Leopard 2A7 to a KF51?
tough quail
oi vey
midnight ore
yeah but its there really much point in going from a Leopard 2A7 to a KF51?
well if you're getting a new tank all together?
i think the prices wont be that different
shrewd pecan
better off waiting 1-2 decades and just modernizing what you got
my main argument is that in their current forms there isn't really much of a point in these platforms as they exist right now
midnight ore
some of the new upgrade packages are very expensive